sk-lore

[blissful harbor]

sure, they are capable
but to say it’s not a retcon is like just wrong lmao, literally you yourself have to say (could just refer to the ones in hallownest)
because it wasn’t planned

[golden olive]

i think the PK poisoned himself with void ngl

yall know the void idol

[blissful harbor]

why
how

[uncut holly]

Asside from the casting Pale King and anyone as being unable to control the void. Something that seems straight up untrue because we know of the City of Steel which uses Void and is actively successful around the time of the game. Seems like Hornet was just saying things based off opinion maybe and not fact.

[normal pike]

where do you even find wingsmoulds in silksong

[golden olive]

how else would this man die SITTING UP

[ancient scroll]

Just because the most likely explanation in one context does not align with another context does not mean that the two contradict each other

[sinful nimbus]

You have to consider that dialogue for a reliable and knowledgeable character who is specifically talking about their own species is obviously going to be intended as correct by the writers

[golden olive]

oh actually he could've summoned a sword made out of soul and killed himself ig cuz his shell is cracked

[terse warren]

The City of Steel actively executes whoever uses Void you are literally making this up

[sinful nimbus]

Sure technically he could be wrong but that clearly wasn't the intent and its obviously a retcon

[slender glacier]

Can pale being actually die from void, since GMS also survived pretty long

[blissful harbor]

his shell doesn’t crack until he falls on the ground

[golden olive]

ur right

[uncut holly]

I think City of Steel uses void because Sharpe's nose. And the servant learned it somehow.

We dont know they use Void, but we know a average lowly servant learned it.

[sinful nimbus]

Sharpe's nose says nothing about void

[golden olive]

its just black

[uncut holly]

It has void like qualities, it moves like the Pure Vessels tendrils

[blissful harbor]

not really

it’s not barbed

[terse warren]

we literally are told by someone from the steel people IN GAME that Void is taboo and that they will kill anyone that uses the void

[uncut holly]

Its not really strong evidence

[sinful nimbus]

"Sharpe is a Kickstarter boss from Jaspal Boodram. Jaspal proposed an assassin bug with a whip-like nose and several other unique talents."
The intent is for it to be a black proboscis

He's an assassin bug

[terse warren]

GMS body is also black that means she is made of void

[uncut holly]

I havent played Steel Soul to see it, but I think it might be because it was not permitted to be used rather than it shouldnt be used. I dont know but i remember the word permitted.

[spark valve]

was not said

[modest ermine]

There's literally 0 evidence that the shaman in hollow nest is aware of the shamans in pharloom, vice versa. We also don't know how much time truly passed between games. It's possible that the dead shaman in pharloom is the shaman from hollow knight. Considering the spell is the Vengeful Spirit. And if this was true, it even further aligns with the shaman being dumb because they died to groal of all things. One shaman/one shaman group in another kingdom being unimaginative is not indication of a massive flaw in the game. Especially when there are numerous possible explanations for why one is interacting with void and the other isn't.

[sinful nimbus]

PV's aren't either

[terse warren]

im feeling so PK right now

[uncut holly]

Maybe not I dont know i havent played Steel Soul

[spark valve]

google what a retcon is please

[sinful nimbus]

It could be void but there's no reason to really assume that tbh

[ancient scroll]

I think the argument is more in line with lost lace, her arm is black originally but turns into tendrils during the fight

[ancient scroll]

Sharped nose looks to be doing the same

[terse warren]

i mean lost lace is void that's like the whole thing

[spark valve]

The vassal is tarnished. They have touched the dark. By the Masters they will now be hunted... no matter the distance fled
yeah these guys seem like they love employing void creatures

[modest ermine]

This would be true if they were the same group of shamans. That is not the case. One group of shamans actions does not implicate the other groups.

[sinful nimbus]

He is referring to the shamans collectively

[golden olive]

where are we getting this information about the city of steel and sharpe btw

[sinful nimbus]

He doesn't say "my kind in the region"

[terse warren]

Vassal is the protag of elden ring? damn

[uncut holly]

Its likely they retconned the Snail Shamans affiliation, and Herrah being a Weaver, also Vespa's significance to Hornet and Hallownest. But I dont think Vespa is still that important to Hallownest they really didnt do anything in the mainline story of that game.

[modest ermine]

You literally just don't know that 😂

[sinful nimbus]

Reading comprehension devil

[spark valve]

anyone who can read does

[blissful harbor]

herrah being a weaver is the dumbest retcon

[ancient scroll]

Jesus this is a toxic discussion

[frail marten]

They don’t even have an explanation for why herrah looks the way she is

[sinful nimbus]

Dumbest retcon is probably void heart having a range limiter

[uncut holly]

Herrah just so happens to be an odd looking Weaver. That or they are a child of a Weaver and another Bug that would make Hornet a 1/4 Weaver.

[terse warren]

Top 10 strongest devils purely because of this server

[modest ermine]

She's a weaver without a mask

[terse warren]

doesn't explain her big ass

[uncut holly]

Maybe actually, although her dreamer look is a little strange for a weaver.

[blissful harbor]

we see weavers without masks, they don’t look like thst

widow is a weaver without their mask

[slender glacier]

reading is hard :C

[sinful nimbus]

The masks appear to be a part of their body too

[uncut holly]

It could all be clothing, but the body of Herrah is weird under their veil and mask.

[next herald]

not to mention, the HK one didnt necessarily not interact with the void, as indicated by things like shade soul and descending dark

[sinful nimbus]

Did they rip off her head Widow style to put the mask on or something

[modest ermine]

She's a queen. Idk how the weaver-spider biology works, but at least with bees and ants and others the queens are big bodied.

[blissful harbor]

anyways, it looks like her body was changed slightly in the red memory scene

[spark valve]

that is just not true

[terse warren]

spiders don't have queens

[sinful nimbus]

She's only a queen by marriage as confirmed by the shrumal tablet about Deepnest

[blissful harbor]

they at least covered her butt so it’s ambiguous lmao

[next herald]

are you going to elaborate orrr

[modest ermine]

Did I not just say that idk how the weaver-spider biology works?

[terse warren]

scroll up literally ten minutes

[next herald]

gotcha ty

[terse warren]

yeah and i explained it to you

[spark valve]

snail shaman explicitly says otherwise, the void spell mutations are explained explicitly and it's not the snails being or knowing jack shit about void

[modest ermine]

You don't know either 😂

[terse warren]

thought you meant irl

anyways tammo made a good point of it being bloodline related

[uncut holly]

Silk as a concept wasnt explored too much in hollow knight, it was explained that the Weavers could weave spells songs and shields. And the Weavers where confirmed to have assisted somewhat in the sealing of the Black Egg. But in Silksong does a bunch of stuff with the nature of silk and honestly I dont fully understand it. We know silk is converted from soul and is imbued with soul, we know that silk can be used to fast learn and view the memories of people and things, this could all still just be under the category of spells though.

[white panther]

all those days of cool discussions here and this is the first time im seeing weird toxic behavior
Please take it down a notch, or even some minutes off

[trim lark]

do we have any reason why hornet just decides to stab and bind into random ass corpses sometimes

like wtf did the dude in chapel of the reaper do

[terse warren]

also weavers are artificially created by gms, why would she ever ake one of them queen?

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not seeing a whole lot of toxicity

[blissful harbor]

people see arguments in the discussion channel and immediately call it toxic lmao

[uncut holly]

There seems to be some weird distinction between silk from Weavers and silk from GMS if the reason they want Weavers is to maintain Lace. If that is true.

Its very confusing

The whole timeline with the Weavers and GMS and the specifics for how silk works is the most confusing thing in this game.

[modest ermine]

I think there's something different about Hera, she's able to lead the weavers to hollow nest, become a dreamer, and she's never captured by GMS

[spark valve]

she's not captured because she's dead

[golden olive]

do we know what GMS was specifically doing with the captured weavers

[uncut holly]

Im not sure. I dont think any where successfully capture, except First Sinner who they might have thought was long dead

[terse warren]

a lot of other weavers are also captured by gms

also weavers were able to go back to pharloom without her so "leading them to hallownest" doesn't really mean much

[uncut holly]

I dont know I have no clue

[spark valve]

a bunch were, first sinner was jailed long ago for different reasons

[uncut holly]

I thought that they wanted them for Lace however

[modest ermine]

Yeah. I don't think that GMS is actually the "silk higher being". Like the difference from Grimm and NKG and the Nightmare Heart. GMS isn't the true source of the silk, otherwise she wouldn't need to get the Weavers.

[spark valve]

she is though

[uncut holly]

GMS is the true source

[terse warren]

why would the game lie to you

[uncut holly]

Which also is more confusing

[spark valve]

Monarch of Pharloom, and the primal source of Silk.

[terse warren]

we know for a fact higher beings aren't all powerful

it's not really surprising at all

[sinful nimbus]

why would the game lie to you

Good question indeed

[uncut holly]

You know what would make sense is if GMS sacrificed Weavers to keep Lace alive in some weird Nightmare Heart like ritual.

But i dont think evidence there exists

[frail marten]

Hornet's just salty the wingsmoulds aren't furry

[terse warren]

this is going to hold true until it is retconned in hollow knight: Shoelace featuring guess who as a protagonist

[spark valve]

weavers got brought to the cradle then mysteriously disappeared
I don't think they're okay

[frail marten]

lace describes hornet as a morsel
so

[golden olive]

wait i thought there were successful captures from the stuff in the cradle

[blissful harbor]

reduced back to a pharlid and all their silk taken ofc

[spark valve]

revealing gms is not in fact lace's mother and she's a scion of the pinstresses!

[slender glacier]

ZOTE THE MIGHTY

[uncut holly]

Maybe thats the explanation of what tore a rift between GMS and the Weavers, they where being sacrificed for something?

[terse warren]

honestly shit that's actually possible yea

[uncut holly]

Well for Lace presumeably

I dont think Weavers where only Pharlids, I think they where any bug nearby on the summit

[golden olive]

my speculative guess is that GMS was binding the weavers she captured

[terse warren]

there was a rift between them because the Weavers abandoned GMS

[uncut holly]

I also think the Nameless town was the target for GMS weaver ascension

Well why did the Weavers abandon GMS?

With Moths it made sense, the Pale King was a way greater god to follow than the Radiance who didnt do squat for them.

[terse warren]

because "pharloom had weak foundations" or something similar, written in a lore tablet at Weavenest Atla

[blissful harbor]

why would they be any bug, pharlids are distinctly arachnid
and we see first sinner turn into one looking like the rest of weavers
idk how other bugs would give thst weaver look

[uncut holly]

The Nameless Town has a memory that reads they followed a light, also it matches the location the Pharlids where ascended from. It also seems very weird that at the summit it looks just like the normal outskirts.

Its weirdly distinct

[golden olive]

did widow leave a corpse after we bound her

[uncut holly]

And kinda out of place, we see snow just below

[blissful harbor]

i mean pharlids could be from the nameless town sure

[uncut holly]

Either way whoever lived in the Nameless town was the one targetted I believe

[modest ermine]

In some cases there's an underlying source behind the higher beings. In fact I think higher beings are children of higher beings that have claimed a power to become a higher being. Like Hornet can become a higher being by claiming the silk, by nature of being a child of the PK. I think it's likely the GMS is something that latched onto the silk in Pharloom, not the true source of the silk. This is also backed up by Hornet and the songclave shaman talking about how (this is an anecdote), "they stuffed their shells with silk seeking immortality, no wonder it was so easy for a being like that to take control". There's also evidence the weavers are older than GMS, considering it doesn't make sense the Weavers would be allowed to build grand structures and technologies only accessible to them while also being hunted. Finally, the "primal source of silk" could be in reference to only the silk in Pharloom.

[spark valve]

Monarch of Pharloom, and the primal source of Silk.
it's not ambiguous

[golden olive]

but not all the bugs there were targeted you think? or only the pharlids there

[spark valve]

google what primal means if you don't know

[blissful harbor]

the dialogue there is “the weaving ones beckon below” or something like that
i think weavers were already a thing when the folks of the nameless town were being lured down

[golden olive]

there wouldn't be husks of normal bugs

[modest ermine]

Everything is ambiguous bruh.

[spark valve]

it's not

[modest ermine]

Such is the way of lore

[spark valve]

also gms didn't allow them to build anything, they forcibly put her to sleep

this is also unambiguous

[blissful harbor]

thst is the most unambiguous statement ever
it’s telling you the answer

[uncut holly]

GMS seemingly appeared at the Kingdoms summit, and ascended the Nameless Town, and possibly all nearby creatures. From there things went well for a while then they had a falling out. Presumeably some of the wars on the other factions might have happened there, but the Citadel was said to exist for a few of them.

[blissful harbor]

again idk why it would be all of them

[spark valve]

weavers are spiders and pharlids are specifically arachnids

[terse warren]

Why would she be ascending the nameless town at all

We have no evidence of Pharlids being in there

[uncut holly]

It seems more significant though, given their closes proximity to the Citadel, the odd nature of the environment compared to the snowy peaks nearby. The fact its on top of a mountain but it looks just like a normal outskirts area.

[spark valve]

the entire world is caves

[modest ermine]

In before dlc that shows us a "true" GMS that's the "true" source of all silk. Then we will have our people that are right and our people that are wrong.

[jovial nexus]

who designed (ACT 3 BOSS) ||Crust King Khan||, with backer credits on there was a name underneath that was attributed to him

[uncut holly]

I never really viewed it like that, where does the snow come from then?

[terse warren]

Nameless Town is so withered there's a high chance it's so old it predates Pharloom by millennia

[uncut holly]

The snow happens because high alttitude.

[blissful harbor]

caves can have weather

especially big enough caves, and if your world is just full of massive caves…well

[uncut holly]

We know that Nameless Town has some GMS relation because the memory mentions them

[terse warren]

Source?

[uncut holly]

Gimme el second

[sinful nimbus]

Well its what it says on the credits

[blissful harbor]

the dialogue mentions being lured down into pharloom by weaving ones

[spark valve]

that...

if that's it that's explicitly indicating they weren't what got ascended into the weavers lmao

more likely they're the first of the citadel caste

[terse warren]

Yeah was gonna say

[terse warren]

Ty

[spark valve]

that's also what lines up with the actual body types

[sinful nimbus]

what the devils is the nameless town I gotta play the game more 😭

[blissful harbor]

the highest point in the map

[uncut holly]

So they likely have some GMS relation

[sinful nimbus]

cradle?

[spark valve]

nah that's utterly inconsistent with spontaneous gms ascension

[blissful harbor]

above cradle

[spark valve]

above it

[uncut holly]

This also seems to be the memory of one bug who stayed behind...

[spark valve]

funny how you omit "The weaving ones beckon..."

[uncut holly]

They do however mention being driven below I believe. Hold on

[spark valve]

which indicates weavers already existed

[uncut holly]

I didnt that existed, but I found from below so they probably did not originate there

[sinful nimbus]

Can I get there in act 3

[spark valve]

you just need super jump

[sinful nimbus]

Noted

[uncut holly]

Yeah so the Citadel existed before hand

So this entire village probably isnt important

They just got seduced by the call of the Weavers below

[blissful harbor]

ehh, idk if from depths below implies the citadel was already there, or if the bugs just came from under, made a town
then silk started turning spiders into mages and they got lured down to start capitalism

[uncut holly]

They also said they came far. So maybe this was just another pilgrims outpost

I dont think the Weavers started here, anymore

Its probably just a pilgrim outpost, which makes it way less important than i thought it was

We know despite being nameless it actually isnt that old

[quartz flicker]

So that one machine/robot thing above the Exhaust Organ is really interesting.

It's the only one of that style that we see.

It seems to be older than most stuff in the Citadel.

[uncut holly]

The age perspective is kind of off, Nameless town seems ancient, Abyss Weavers seem ancient but their all relatively around Weaver timeframe. And then the other civilizations have been doing stuff way longer

[whole hawk]

Just some clarification. Did the Citadel exist prior to the Silk and the Weavers? Or did Silk and the Weavers come first and then the Citadel formed? What did the pilgrims even worship exactly?

[spark valve]

weavers built the citadel, then the citadel caste showed up and took over. Pilgrims worship the citadel and the source of silk at its heart, but probably don't fully know what it is

[quartz flicker]

I don't recall any Pilgrims mentioning silk specifically.

actually, do any Pilgrims even mention the Weavers?

[spark valve]

Pilgrim of Pharloom eternal, regale us with our Threefold song, that you may rise above and worship before our kingdom's divine heart.

[limpid summit]

The citadel caste took over under GMS?

[spark valve]

no

[limpid summit]

Okay yeah I’m not sure abt the timeline either

Was the citadel ruled by the three factions

[blissful harbor]

is the nameless town the original citadel bugs??
if not then makes sense, if so
why would the weavers call them down to…like kick them out essentially

[spark valve]

weavers put gms to sleep, and built the citadel to keep her that way
the citadel caste then showed up, killed the weavers, and took control, keeping the music going so she stayed asleep
then eventually their experiments with silk started giving her some control, which then made the citadel go quiet, which started accelerating her waking up

[blissful harbor]

nameless town doesn’t make a lot of sense to me

[quartz flicker]

Based on the technology and design of the Citadel, I don't think it's likely that the Weavers built the Citadel as we see it, at least not alone.

[spark valve]

it's not necessarily deliberate nor are the weavers necessarily anticipating whatever response, etc

[blissful harbor]

why did the weavers call anyone down wtf were they doing

[whole hawk]

Right thanks that's sort of what I thought. The Weavers are transformed bugs, yeah? And they betrayed Silk when they found out that truth? Silk was pissed so she screwed over all the Weavers to turn them into milking stations for silk while others just outright got killed/imprisoned.

[spark valve]

they explicitly did

[whole hawk]

Or did the Citadel caste do that?

[spark valve]

weavers

[terse warren]

I don't understand why you say that the Citadel Caste killed the Weavers. I thought they were somewhat worshipped?

[spark valve]

You speak of the Citadel? Its former function has failed, but I can still sense its purpose, some. It is church and cage both.[NPC]:Aye. Devised by your ancestors that monstrosity, and their wicked, clever minds. A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule.

[spark valve]

The mantle of rule, claimed greedily from Pharloom's fading first children, those bitter Weavers... it was yoke, not crown

[quartz flicker]

It depends on whether the Citadel we see is the original form it took, or it's been altered

[limpid summit]

So the weavers railed against GMS but once the choir killed them she regained some control during the haunting

[spark valve]

it has been altered, but they originally built it

[limpid summit]

Alright

[spark valve]

the architects continue to iterate and change shit

[terse warren]

Oh ok then I probably misread a line about them worshipping gms

[limpid summit]

Was it them who deemed the first sinner as such

[spark valve]

I mean they do, they just don't necessarily know all the details about her being an angry sleeping god

they moved in to the citadel already built and functioning to keep her asleep

and romino's poem says that they forget the kingdom's heart

[limpid summit]

I think I’m having trouble determining the direction of the citadel caste

[trim lark]

what enemies do we know of that arent haunted if any

[limpid summit]

They came into the citadel, deemed the Weavers sinners, started killing them, created a vicious caste system with the Slab and stuff

When did GMS start manipulating them

[spark valve]

this full dialogue also implies the caste was not sure what they were doing

[Hornet]:The bugs of your land, I have watched them, climbing towards their absolution without the flicker of a thought to what it means.[NPC]:Aye. But isn't it always such for those snared to serve your higher caste?[NPC]:Our mortal mob did once act some defiance, unawares maybe, but successful in part, goaded towards it by Weavers' will'n all.[Hornet]:You speak of the Citadel? Its former function has failed, but I can still sense its purpose, some. It is church and cage both.[NPC]:Aye. Devised by your ancestors that monstrosity, and their wicked, clever minds. A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule.
this is probably about them maintaining the citadel

[blissful harbor]

i don’t think the bugs in the nameless town give you silk when hit, but i might be wrong don’t quote me

[terse warren]

No I mean I accidentally interpreted the line being about weavers instead of GMS

[spark valve]

that would be relatively recently, implied that it's an effect of experimentation with silk

[spark valve]

I believe they do but that doesn't really matter since hornet gaining silk on hitting something isn't contingent on it being haunted, it's her gaining soul on hit which is her silk

[sinful nimbus]

so is that the surface surface then

nameless town

[whole hawk]

When does Lace come in though? Didn't GMS create her specifically because she felt betrayed by the Weavers?

[spark valve]

not much reason to think so

[spark valve]

might've made her after some of them fled, but she definitely made her before they put her to sleep

[limpid summit]

Oh I see

I thought it was GMS that manipulated the choir against the weavers but I mean we’re told repeatedly that no one liked them

[spark valve]

oh yeah no she was pretty asleep at the time

[quartz flicker]

Is Dirtmouth on the surface. I vaguely recall that that was stated or implied somewhere.

[spark valve]

surface is a relative term

[pseudo stone]

The hunters journal entry for those bugs says they aren't haunted, something about "Her silk doesn't reach here" iirc

[limpid summit]

So it really was like literally Hallownest’s conception until the weavers rebelled

• PK turned some bugs into sapient citizens amidst bees mantises spiders
• GMS turned some bugs into weavers amidst ants verdanians karakians

[terse warren]

definitely after some of them fled

no reason for her to make a new daughter if she thinks her current ones are all perfectly fine and happy

[quartz flicker]

Maybe? In what scenarios is the surface mentioned by name in HK?

[astral wharf]

Hi, can someone help me? I want to get the harpoon, but I don't know how to open the gate to the lava part of the claustroforjar, can someone please help me?

[spark valve]

unless part of the lie first sinner was talking about was related to her seeing the weavers as her daughters

[limpid summit]

Stag says dirtmouth is near the surface but debatably that’s surface of the kingdom

[quartz flicker]

wrong channel

[terse warren]

that really seems to go against her characterization though

also, wouldn't really be such a "betrayal" if she didn't give that much of a shit about them in the first place

[spark valve]

it would be a bit weird I'm just saying it's possible because atp it seems a bit ambiguous

[terse warren]

ig but rn im more inclinded to believe the lie was something else

[spark valve]

sinner's needolin stuff seems to suggest it's more about the mechanism of creation and divinity aspect I agree

"I didn't ask to be born" type shit

[terse warren]

she is quite edgy

[limpid summit]

So wait

[terse warren]

get it because. because her head has spi-

[limpid summit]

After the banishment of GMS is when the Weavers did all the terrible stuff like with Green Prince

[spark valve]

green prince was probably with the citadel caste not weavers

[terse warren]

i think it was the caste that dd the green prince stuff

since it should be relatively recent

[limpid summit]

Ahh

[whole hawk]

GMS in Pharloom > Makes Weavers > Weavers built stuff > Betrayal > Makes Lace(?) > Put to Sleep > Weavers build the Citadel to continue to contain GMS > Citadel caste take over(?) > Weavers hunted and milked > They experiment with silk > GMS continues to sleep... is that right? And who exactly calls for Hornet's capture?

[limpid summit]

What about Nyleth was that the Weavers

[terse warren]

lace AND phantom

[spark valve]

weavers hunted and milked should be moved to the end

pharloom exists and shit is fine
grand mother silk shows up and creates the weavers as her 'daughters'
weavers decide they don't really like the situation, some of them flee. GMS then makes Lace and Phantom as new daughters.
Remaining weavers trap her and put her to sleep, building the citadel to keep her that way
weavers start to fade away, presumably because they have trouble reproducing
Citadel caste takes over, seizing power from weavers and continuing to using the citadel's song to keep the mother silk asleep while not entirely aware of what they're doing
citadel bugs eventually start using silk to attempt to attain immortality by surgically implanting it in their shells, eventually causing many of their minds to succumb to the grand mother silk, leading to the citadel being silenced.
She starts waking up, causing the haunting to take over pharloom at large, and sends hunting parties out to track down the descendants of weavers who fled including hornet, to gather their silk. This is probably to sustain Lace, who requires a large amount of silk to stay alive
Hornet is captured and brought to Pharloom, but Lace breaks her out because Lace is a rebellious little shit who wants hornet to fuck shit up so she has a chance to get back at her mom

[terse warren]

techincally missing some details since you said the Caste took the citadel by force from the weavers

[whole hawk]

Ah so the silk experimentations turned into a self-inflicted infection that let GMS control them

[spark valve]

I thought that was in there

ah it is but should be own line

[terse warren]

"weavers start to fade away and citadel caste take over" sounds more like there weren't really may weavers left so the caste found the citadel and just started deciding shit as it was almost empty, not really like a violent take over

[spark valve]

yeah that's a bit misleading

[limpid summit]

Was the citadel caste like an original movement of pilgrims, as in do we know if they were organized as an entity before they entered Pharloom

[terse warren]

there is also the thing of Lace and Phantom possibly being after the weavers escaped but since we aern't sure about that it's wtv

[spark valve]

maybe? they organized pretty quick afterwards at least

[spark valve]

yeah ultimately my goal was more to lay out general events

[limpid summit]

So was Widow haunted or just insane

And who was she tortured by

[whole hawk]

Who are the central figures of the caste though? It seemed like even ingame we never came across one

[spark valve]

she seems to just be a willing servant of the mother

[spark valve]

the conductors were calling the shots, we see one left alive

[honest bough]

someone explain me the 1st ending i just finished it

[limpid summit]

Hornet takes control of the haunting and begins to turn into a Grand Mother Silk like figure

[spark valve]

hornet ascends to the cradle, fights the god responsible for the haunting, and binds it into herself, which leads to certain instincts taking over and her replacing gms

[terse warren]

btw do we know if the big conductor after the forum is the same one as the one in whiteward that the insane doctors turned between act 2 and 3 or are they just 2 different ones

[limpid summit]

It’s meant to be a sort of poor ending like the 1st hollow knight one

Two different ones

The Unraveled is the threads of dead silk experimented bugs reanimating a Conductor’s corpse

[spark valve]

you can do unraveled in act 2 I'm pretty sure they're different ones

[honest bough]

mm i see

how do i see my game percentage?

[terse warren]

oh damn

[quiet narwhal]

item in the abyss

[spark valve]

the unravelled also isn't actually a conductor's corpse, that's just among the wills in it

[limpid summit]

What’s this games World Sense explanation actually

[amber bridge]

Im reading the channel a bit trying to get the gist of the overall story and... when was it said that GMS created the Weavers?

[limpid summit]

First sinner cutscene

[quiet narwhal]

a tool called the farsight that lets you see things from far away 💀 afaik

[spark valve]

farseer seems to be a device the weavers used to replicate its effects, may just be a generic thing you can do with soul magic

[limpid summit]

A line of silk hits a regular Pharlid and turns it into the first sinner

[spark valve]

it even creates runes reminiscent of the world sense pickup

[limpid summit]

Hm

Neat

[terse warren]

uhuh

[honest bough]

now i have to make all wishes in order to get access to act 3 is that right

[spark valve]

https://youtu.be/S3xq1QGS9a4?t=178 this is the farseer I think

yup

[whole hawk]

I'm still a bit surprised that the caste were able to oneup the weavers so well.

[uncut holly]

Wasnt the conductor corpse in the White Ward that crazy conductor who headed the silk experiments

Tricked pilgrims into being experimented

[spark valve]

they were described as fading it's not like they were at full strength. They have difficulty reproducing and a bunch of them had already fled too

[terse warren]

actually speaking of doesn't the guy say that he regret being a conductor? so wouldn't that mean that more so than "calling the shots" it was sort of an election maybe?

sorry my wording is off

[spark valve]

he talks about ruling being a burden, but that's still what they did

[uncut holly]

I think that guy says roughly he wanted to be a Conductor until he found what it entailed. And something about the only ruler is the monarch up top, so GMS.

[spark valve]

"By the will of the Conductors," we once boomed, and this Citadel shook at our decree

[terse warren]

iirc he says that if he knew the burden was gonna be this he might not have taken the role?

[spark valve]

yeah

but they still were the ones in charge

[uncut holly]

So when was the elevator made?

The one with the statues

[noble gyro]

R they responsible for the benches being pay2win

[spark valve]

could've been made by the weavers as part of the og citadel

[limpid summit]

Citadel caste motives seem a bit disconnected to me

[spark valve]

how so

[limpid summit]

I feel like compared to Weavers and GMS we don’t get a ton of insight, besides stuff that revolves around one or the other

[whole hawk]

Citadel caste just wanted control and power, that seems simple enough?

[limpid summit]

Maybe it’s just cause there’s no clear leader not that there has to be but like it just seemed like they existed and did that stuff

[spark valve]

the conductors were the leaders

[uncut holly]

When did the pilgrimage phenomena start? How did it all come about?

[spark valve]

seemed to be pursuing a general mission of perpetuity for the citadel (where have we heard that one before)

pilgirmage started with the citadel caste it was an initiation rite

[white panther]

poor treadmill bug having to work a full day just to have enough to save

[limpid summit]

So did the Weavers create Eva before GMS got sealed

[spark valve]

do the pilgrimage and you can get inducted into the citadel where nobody dies and you have endless abundance etc

[limpid summit]

Maybe after Phantom and Lace were created

[limpid summit]

Hmm alright

[spark valve]

could have been before or after, she is in a hiding spot from gms but there's also a line about finding her shameful so it might just be reusing that place for a different purpose

[limpid summit]

I think I’ve been bouncing around too much I don’t feel grounded I totally have to replay

[uncut holly]

It just all seems very, strange. I get that they wanted to trick the Citadel Chior into containing something they didnt know. But its a very strange direction to reasonably go in, from. (Alright guys how are we gonna keep this thing contained forever. Lets make a religion!)

[limpid summit]

Not really lore but Cursed GMS feels so much more like an actual final boss

[uncut holly]

I mean religions last but

Its weird

[limpid summit]

On that lore note let’s talk about Greyroot again

[limpid summit]

Worship guides actions I can see it

[spark valve]

the conductors also don't necessarily know the whole purpose of the citadel

[sage summit]

Could I ask, who are the coral people? I'm assuming they were an empire that tried to rebel against the haunting but failed. Just wondering if there's more bout em

[uncut holly]

Weavers are incredibly cruel in this. Its weird how Hornet never comments on it deliberately.

[whole hawk]

The religion naturally formed I thought. After all we're dealing with actual godlike entities and powers so it makes sense that people woild worship it.

Same way people naturally worshipped thebother higher beings.

[spark valve]

they fell long before the haunting

[uncut holly]

Their Coral Cave dried up from the Citadel or GMs or something. I dont think its ever stated.

Maybe we will get a crab DLC on all of that cut Coral Caves content

[limpid summit]

Okay wait just remind me

I can remember they did stuff but I’m mixed up on what GMS did vs Citadel vs Weavers

[uncut holly]

I think Hornets ability to Bind silk was unique to them entering Pharloom, as we see the Kingdom itself has a weird effect in the intro cutscene. Also the Church Maid mentions that the people containing them did not know what they where getting into when they brought Hornet here.

If the Weavers started the Citadel that means their possibly responsible for the cruel actions against alot of the other factions in Pharloom.

They practically started waring with everyone else around them who wasnt subservient

[whole hawk]

Weavers are total jackasses yes. Is that in their nature though?

[limpid summit]

Herrah doesn’t like them

Or at least she was like “the Weavers want you to be all these things be who you want to be” to Hornet

[spark valve]

well herrah thinks they're putting too many expectations on hornet

that's not disliking them

[limpid summit]

Imagine being a mother with a ton of helicopter aunts around your child

[sage summit]

Herrah had hornet so she could do greater things I think. Something beyond the expectations of pale being or weaver

[limpid summit]

I’d sort of resent it

[spark valve]

no she just had hornet to have a daughter

[limpid summit]

The Weavers were the ones who wanted that sort of thing

She wanted a heir and legitimacy to the throne, but she also loved Hornet

[sage summit]

Ye not saying she didn't love her

[limpid summit]

No yeah yeah

Just that she had hornet for her own sake

[sage summit]

Any lore on phantom? All I know is she's GMS's second daughter

[spark valve]

same type of being as lace, decaying due to age since she apparently isn't getting more silk, wants to die in battle instead of slow decline

[limpid summit]

Sort of looks similar to Hornet but in like a TK Zote sort of way doesn’t mean much

Phantom of the opera reference

She probably has a Lacelike face behind her mask right

[spark valve]

presumably

[limpid summit]

Near her arena there’s a containment pod that looks like Eva’s

You needolin it and it like shows you a vision of Phantom inside it with Lace outside saying like “why us, sister” or something

[quiet narwhal]

i assumed they were the first daughter and didnt work out so well

[uneven siren]

I would bet on the radiance considering how basically impossible to kill it is unless you're the void god/void given focus

[quiet narwhal]

dont have anything really to back that up, just made sense to me

[limpid summit]

Not a bad guess

[whole holly]

does Trobbio have unique power?

[limpid summit]

Not really just a lot of explosives

He can spin pretty fast

[white panther]

showmanship

[sage summit]

Trobbio is dramatic

A bard that thinks performance can fix everything

[foggy fractal]

a dumbass

[echo hull]

is it me or does the hunter crest look like shade lord 😭

[whole hawk]

I'm sort of curious how fast the DLC turn out will be. Hidden Dreams to Godmaster happened in the span of less than two years. Of course they weren't full on massive area additions but TC was stupid quick with those.

[sage summit]

Praying for that boss rush dlc

[whole hawk]

Steel Assassins is guaranteed because Sharpe is a backer boss so I wonder if it'll just be them houdning Hornet in Act 3 or if TC will go ham and do a full on City of Iron segment.

[sage summit]

Just let me fight karmelita again

[unkempt smelt]

i need a pantheon dlc asap, i really wanna fight some bosses with tools i wasnt able to get access to before

[whole hawk]

Whatever the bossrush will look like it'll be tbe last one for sure.

[sage summit]

The Uzi silk shot is my favorite tool

[whole holly]

i want DLC that expands upon Lifeblood, i don't really care how long it takes

[whole hawk]

I at least expect First Sinner, Phantom, and Widow super bosses. It'd be such a shame to not get refights for them.

And maybe a souped up GMS too for the road.

[whole holly]

down the line, those are really likely

[humble iron]

I wouldn't be surprised if that's all we're getting about lifeblood tbh

[humble iron]

I need the phantom lore

Wish hornet did not execute her

[tawdry flare]

They wanted to be executed Hornet just obliged

[whole holly]

me neither, but we need more about it that just teasers and inclusions, we need actual lore

[humble iron]

I mean there's big lore on lifeblood

a whole lifeblood area is a lot lol

not to mention that it explains why lifeblood is a taboo in HK

[sweet pawn]

anything I'm supposed to spoil here?

I just got sister of the void and the knight it alive!!!! I'm so fucking happy

[tawdry flare]

Nope, unless you want to spoiler tag Steel Soul content since that’s probably the stuff the least amount of people have done

[sweet pawn]

alright

well I'm super happy with the ending

that was worth the 7 year wait

[heavy rapids]

I think the funniest part of new lore to me is learning that Pale King is genuinely the only higher being who could rule even a little bit

[whole hawk]

Some one bring out the apology form

[heavy rapids]

The "no cost too great" thing was pretty bad but like at least his people were alright

Radiance and Grand Mother Silk make Pale King look like the most competent ruler to ever exist

[empty sierra]

who is this guy and whats his lore

[white panther]

How soon after launch on HK we got the dlcs?

[whole hawk]

Hidden Dreams was like... half a year I think

Grimm came a few months later for October.

[empty sierra]

idont think that matters they seem really ambitious now and learned its worth to put more time rather than release them quick, i wouldnt bet on any DLC for at least a year if not two

i think they want to do a bigger dlc than usual

[whole hawk]

Lifeblood was the big optimization patch that released early 2018 and the Godmaster hit a couple of months later.

[white panther]

nah, i'm just thinking of how much time people had with the lore and etc of the first game before it got expanded

[whole hawk]

So everything happened within 2 years.

I genuinely think Team Cherry already have a ton done relation to the steel assassins.

[white panther]

idk if the Grimm Troupe added a lot of significant lore tho

[meager badger]

Im trying to figure out if theres a lore reason why a lot of small enemies deal double damage. I have noticed a lot of small enemies that deal double damage are ones that wield a blade or have some sort of slicing/cutting attack. Could this be because they are able to cut Hornets threads easier? Idk

[whole hawk]

It's just a matter of whether they want to add in a huge area or just some bosses and a handful of uniqie locations.

[white panther]

was the flower quest on HK part of the game, an update or part of dlc? That added a lot of lore out of nowhere

[whole hawk]

Delicate Flower was base game. They just happened to include it in Godmaster.

[peak harbor]

yep, interestingly df seems to exist or is at least introduced to us because of a backer character

i’m wondering which came first, ze’mer or the df, because if my 400 dollars then went on to massively influence endings not only in the game i spent it on but its sequel that’d be an insane steal

[drowsy mortar]

So the Chapel

[sage summit]

Pharloom is hell on earth and the pale king was the goat

[drowsy mortar]

We know it's important to the Shamans

What is it exactly?

[fringe ember]

forget the tools bro theres ||SEVEN CRESTS|| in the game

[peak harbor]

it’s hard to say at the moment without an organised timeline, but it could be another case of the defunct abyss-worshipping civilisation mentioned in hollow knight seeing as we don’t know of any other higher beings that could’ve been worshipped prior

admittedly i only assume this because the architecture seems familiar to the sparse structures we see in the abyss and i’m not sure what the chapels would have been dedicated to otherwise

[craggy smelt]

seemingly an old place of worship, like the mounds in Hallownest
there are tablets inside that seem to hold recipes for spells

[amber bridge]

God baby Hornet looked so adorable... also TC brought back the Herrah/Vespa/WL combi lore that was initially meant to be shown in the original HK game no? If so, it's nice they didn't give up on this cut content and brought it back instead in SS

[quaint surge]

is this|| the queen in HK|| ? i don't play HK but i watch a little bit of lore about it

[sinful nimbus]

yeah

[quaint surge]

Is hornet ||the child of the king and spider queen|| ?

[fleet basin]

where is this

[sinful nimbus]

Act 3 stuff

Its a ||memory of Hornet's||

[quaint surge]

||act 3 after u kill all the memory bosses then go to shamans||

[craggy smelt]

her ||pale court cloak|| was pretty adorable

[quaint surge]

idk why but i think it looks like those white prison suit tied up for crazy people 😭

[whole holly]

guys, i thought Song just like Soul would be mechanic in the game but in way it is, with Needolin replacing Dream nail, but i expected Song to be full replacement of Dream mechanic in game

[whole holly]

Song seems to hold significance in Pharloom but Silk is haunting Bugs, Song seems to be absent mostly, i expected for there to be Song based higher being

[peak harbor]

song IS used in pharloom, silk is just the medium through which you play that song

[steep zephyr]

Isn't song used to keep ||gms|| in a state of slumber?

[quartz flicker]

I wonder what would happen if Hornet got the three Hearts before facing Grand Mother Silk, and used their power against her.

That would be a super intriguing alternate Act 3 IMO.

The Act 3 we have has extremely dire consequences for Pharloon, and Hornet would have never gone through with the plan if she knew what would happen.

[quiet narwhal]

True

Potential for dlc exploration maybe

[slim lily]

yes hornet is the child of the pale king and herrah the beast

herra only agreed to become a dreamer if the pale king gave her an heir and seeing as to how many of his kids he left in the void he agreed

[quartz flicker]

If there was an alternate route added, maybe you could have Mister Mushroom warning Hornet about what will happen and letting her obtain the Silk Soar and Elegy of the Deep in advance.

[bronze hemlock]

Can’t wait for Mr Mushroom dlc.

Most important character.

[amber bridge]

I want a DLC that brings back the Hollow Knight/Pure Vessel... I still cannot get over the ending where they came out of the Black Egg somehow and went battle ready to face Hornet... Where is the poor baby, TC

[cosmic geyser]

The ending of SS is deliberately vague on which ending is canon to HK

It’s either 3 or 5.

[undone fable]

it is NOT seal the infection

[cosmic geyser]

Correct

That’s 1 and 2

[foggy fractal]

yes its either dnm or etv

[amber bridge]

but in all, this 100% confirms it is a sequel lore wise to the original HK. we just now have to make sense which ending of HK SS follows after...

[cosmic geyser]

I suspect they won’t tell us until they decide

[amber bridge]

since that was a focal discussion before the game released and we got an answer in part though

[foggy fractal]

well dnm or etv if true ending is anything to go off of

[amber bridge]

it can only be either of the two

[undone fable]

whats up with the surface and lace and hornet somehow going there after the ending

[amber bridge]

but imo etv is more likely purely because ghost did somewhat become the shade lord and hornet again faces the flashing silhoulette of the shade lord through the knight

[near karma]

what rules out 4?

[quiet narwhal]

Imo it's pretty clearly godhome ending since hornet recognized the shade lord

[plush sequoia]

what the FUCK is NUU

[quiet narwhal]

Specifically flowerless godhome

[sinful nimbus]

She sees the exclusive forms of The Knight in DNM and ETV

Its ambiguous

[plush sequoia]

My nightmares have nightmares about that thing

[craggy smelt]

i just learned about a new wanderer's journal in the first game that i never found
Silksong won't have this sort of thing, since with Farsight it shows you everything you're missing
little sad

[sinful nimbus]

where was the WJ

[craggy smelt]

#hk-lore message

[sinful nimbus]

woah

[craggy smelt]

you can also dreamnail that guy~!

that game still keeps giving

[sinful nimbus]

Greenpath and Fungal Wastes have a lot of well hidden stuff

[quiet narwhal]

You never found that one? Interesting. I think that's the first journal I think of when I think of journal spots

I'm sure I'm missing at least one too

I think it just stuck out to me since I found it on my second playthrough and was surprised

I still wish we got to see/play the events after etv... I understand why we wouldn't tho

[fathom eagle]

Would Roach innard stew taste good?

[craggy smelt]

snail
with no shell
(but not the same type of snails as shaman)

[cosmic geyser]

Idk

[quiet narwhal]

According to pharloom bugs, probably

[cosmic geyser]

I’ve eaten spicy grasshopper shells beforehand

They’re not terrible.

I’ve also (accidently) eaten a few live ants, they taste awful

[fathom eagle]

I imagine it would be like a earthly crab/lobster.

[spark valve]

muckroach is gross

[craggy smelt]

I wonder if the Hornet DLC was originally that, with Void taking over Hallownest like it took over Pharloom
because everyone was wrong about TK being chill as Void Lord

[quiet narwhal]

So what is Mr mushroom talking about in this game

[spark valve]

These creatures look to have been bred deliberately in watery pens. If they are food to be, their scent suggests they must taste vile.

[cosmic geyser]

TBD

[craggy smelt]

oh, who knows

[quiet narwhal]

Have we deciphered any of them

I sure didn't

[craggy smelt]

for this game? not to my knowledge

[undone fable]

i think i get an idea for one or two he was talking about

i really dont know what hes talking about

as is with him

[craggy smelt]

seems just generic cryptic life advice

[cosmic geyser]

I like that he’s called mister mushroom

[amber bridge]

But DNM never showcased the Shade Lord. The Shade Lord in general doesn't become a thing unless you specifically make use of the Godseeker's power and call forth it through tuning. Even lore aside, TC had a reason to make extra cutscene shots of the SL. SL is tied to the Knight, not as a standalone so it wouldn't really work out even with the idea that SL is a standalone separate god who just happens to be in Pharloom.

[craggy smelt]

I liked his final interaction with Hornet and suggesting they might meet again in the future

[cosmic geyser]

Mushrooms are asex but it’s named is gendered

[sinful nimbus]

ETV never showcases Void Given Form either

[cosmic geyser]

How curious of a name for a mushroom!

[craggy smelt]

you call this mushroom 'sir'

[terse wadi]

imo Sister of void can connect to DNM OR ETV is what I gathere from that

[sinful nimbus]

That's why I said exclusive. The ending shows a version exclusive to DNM and a version exclusive to ETV

[quiet narwhal]

Doesn't need to. Hornet sees dmn knight, recognizes them as etv knight

[sinful nimbus]

How would she do that if only one took place

[cosmic geyser]

Chat, do we think dlc’s for this game might give us more acts? Like an act 4?

[terse wadi]

Maybe for the final one

[sinful nimbus]

If it was ETV she wouldn't see the DNM form and vice versa

[undone fable]

i dont think its going to be a whole act but im guessing something close to a whole act

[quiet narwhal]

I think the knight probably chooses the form they take(?)

[cosmic geyser]

Imagine a foreign kingdom visiting the ruins of Pharloom

[sinful nimbus]

Then it could be either

[cosmic geyser]

Like you start with restructuring efforts, and then there’s a whole invasion

[quiet narwhal]

Maybe an epilogue but I doubt it'll be called act 4

[terse wadi]

I just think the SL flash is just TC saying it's open endeddd to be either as long as TK has control over the void

[quiet narwhal]

Urgent dlc is a boss refight mode imo, I hope that's first

Not a boss rush necessarily, just a way to play fights again. There's a million ways to do it

[cosmic geyser]

I mean why not though right?

Would be nice to actually have lace as an ally for dlc

[quiet narwhal]

4 is a less brain-likey number than 3 + epilogue

[craggy smelt]

agreed, some kind of memory thing version of Hall of Gods - there's some bosses I want to re-fight without starting a new playthrough

[cosmic geyser]

But then they could just keep going if they wanted to

The act system means they don’t have to start over with a new game

[craggy smelt]

I wonder about... a separate campaign? Like clone your save file from the main game Acts 1-2-3, and then start with that Hornet in a DLC campaign
I don't know

[terse wadi]

Make it PM style, like a play

[spark valve]

this seems the clear intent

[quiet narwhal]

So just to be clear, the knight definitively does have a will

[spark valve]

this has been known since 2017

[undone fable]

⁉️

[quiet narwhal]

I've heard debate about it

[spark valve]

people debate a lot of things that are eminently factual

[undone fable]

if they didnt have a will i dont think they would even escape the abyss

[quiet narwhal]

So uhhh does the knight know what the delicate flower does? Because it kinda seems like flower ending results in godhome and the shade lord dying

[spark valve]

wl doesn't think it does

[quiet narwhal]

Wdym

[spark valve]

she doesn't think it knows what it does

[quiet narwhal]

Special dialogue?

[foggy fractal]

Ah, what precious gift it offers, though alas I shan't accept.
Not of me that flower, nor of this kingdom. Far it travelled to reach this place, brought by one beloved, fair knight of lands serene.
There is rare power hidden in those frail petals.
To hold it so close, one must surely be unaware of its nature...

[quiet narwhal]

RIGHT I remember this I delivered the flower to wl in my casual since I thought thats where it goes

[foggy fractal]

"To hold it so close, one must surely be unaware of its nature..."

one refering to the knight ofc

[quiet narwhal]

Yeah

So uh... why does the everbloom not break like the delicate flower? From a lore perspective

And why does the delicate flower not make the knight immune to void tendrils

[sinful nimbus]

There doesn't seem to be a lore reason for that

Or that

[quiet narwhal]

Man...

[sinful nimbus]

Being honest TC obviously didn't think about any of this beforehand

[covert siren]

Maybe Hornet is just better at carrying it than the Knight since she actually cares?

[amber bridge]

this dialogue peeves me because it feels like it’s somewhat contradictory to what she says in the red memory sequence. even if you can say her and her family are separate, thus she didn’t necessarily gave false statements it still feels like a small retcon

[craggy smelt]

memorybloom is less fragile, or whatever

[quiet narwhal]

Doesn't care about survivor's camp supplies 💀

[spark valve]

the knight is also trying to avoid breaking it it understands its objective and that the flower is fragile

[foggy fractal]

oh yeah TC doesn't really care about these sorts of things

[sinful nimbus]

Ze'mers dialogue indicates its just naturally fragile and not a matter of caring

[craggy smelt]

in red memory she just mentions that the everbloom is their defense, it wouldn't contradict what she said earlier that she didn't create the flower or that it didn't come from hallownest

[quiet narwhal]

So what's the deal with the white thing that frees Hornet at the start

[craggy smelt]

Lace, acting out

[sinful nimbus]

Seems like Lace sent it

[quiet narwhal]

Alr

[sinful nimbus]

She is seen "conducting" similar flies before Lace 1

[quiet narwhal]

Yeah I noticed

[craggy smelt]

she resented hornet and didn't want her reaching the citadel, probably hoping she'd die in a breakout or something

[quiet narwhal]

I wonder if she expected hornet to die in the fall

[craggy smelt]

she probably couldn't have anticipated that hornet would cause the fall, but might've still been hoping for hornet to die wandering around in the wilds somehow

eventually confronting her in the deep docks to kill her personally

[tawdry flare]

she also leads hornet to phantom

[quartz flicker]

I really really wish we could see what Weaver Queen Hornet is like.

[spark valve]

more questionable but possible

[craggy smelt]

hornet with more arms

[quartz flicker]

This would be awesome as a "Hornet has to fight her parallel self" fight.

[quiet narwhal]

Surely she knew what would happen, that hornet would kill phantom. It seems like that's something she wouldn't want, even if phantom was okay with it

[tawdry flare]

we are NOT jumping timelines in silksong dlc

[quartz flicker]

why not

[craggy smelt]

Hollow Knight: Timefucked

[quiet narwhal]

It hurts my brain in particular, therefore we won't do it

[undone fable]

i dont tihnk time abilities fit in hollow knight

[quiet narwhal]

Just memories

[craggy smelt]

Phantom wanted a decisive end in a fight instead of slow decay, Lace might've been respecting those wishes by leading Hornet to them
either way, Lace gets something she wants - hornet dead, or phantom at peace

[quartz flicker]

you say this, but consider: Boss fight against Weaver Queen Hornet.

[undone fable]

all of the weavers died 😭

wait what happened to that one weaver in hollow knight

[quiet narwhal]

We already have a boss against grand mother silk who probably would be pretty much the same

[quartz flicker]

i think you are forgetting the ending i'm talking about

[undone fable]

ah

[quiet narwhal]

Killed by shade lord tbh 🙏

Thats my headcanon

[foggy fractal]

why would shade lord do that

[undone fable]

painful chat

[quiet narwhal]

My interpretation of the void and shade Lord is if they're left in a kingdom to do whatever they are going to destroy it without proper focus

[quartz flicker]

it's kind of implied that the Weaver we very briefly see just kinda noped out of Hallownest.

[quiet narwhal]

I wonder if the one weaver left was just like... to injured to leave or smth

For unrelated reasons

[foggy fractal]

shade lord is literally called void given focus
besides we don't have any evidence that it would do that anyway

[quiet narwhal]

The evidence is it kinda destroys the godseeker

Though I see where you're coming from

Nothing is solid

[twin ocean]

guys is this supposed to be part of the lore hornet ||godseeker|| confirmed

[sinful nimbus]

Godseeker is alive and chilling in Godseeker mode

Which takes place after P5 according to the unique dialogue

[twin ocean]

epic

[foggy fractal]

my question is why wouldn't this apply to void given form

like they're free to do whatever they want regardless

if they are void given form or void given focus

[quiet narwhal]

I don't know

Honestly the motivation of the void is pretty weird to me. It seems totally okay to possess bugs, but is sentimental for hornet

And it's maybe afraid of lifeblood? Seeing as there's no void creatures in wormways act 3

[foggy fractal]

void is hostile to Hornet too before tk showed up

tk having to slash away the tendrils is just inconsistent though they should have been to quell it/unify it with void heart

[quiet narwhal]

So void isn't a hive mind

[sinful nimbus]

SS retconned a bunch of stuff this is among them

In the first game it was portrayed far less maliciously TC was just high when writing true ending I believe

[polar yacht]

Unrelated to current discussion but is this a bug

[quiet narwhal]

I think they wanted to do something new with void

[peak harbor]

i’m not sure, since the shade we see facing hornet is actually the hollow knight

[sinful nimbus]

Doing something new in Silksong's story would be a first

[peak harbor]

thk probably isn’t the “heart” of the shade lord, which is why they have to slash away the tendrils imo

[rocky smelt]

What makes you think thats the hollow knight? The hollow knights shade is way different

[craggy smelt]

yes

[rocky smelt]

U can see the one is silksong is clearly the knights shade on the left, not the hollow knight

[amber bridge]

probably my biggest gripe with TC in general (still love them tho) cuz all those lore discussions for many of its aspect not being taken seriously feels… meh

[foggy fractal]

from my understanding its only because GMS' threads were Void able to propagate through Pharloom so theres that
I think the argument of why Void is aggressive is that they can latch on to soul and get aggrevated or smth
and without interference they'd just lay there in the abyss, still being volatile to anything it comes across

even so they have retconned void heart being able to unify the void ? like theres some sort of range/time limit until tk can control the void in silksong ? god

[sinful nimbus]

That's part of it but the void tendril entries among other things are still pretty weird

[foggy fractal]

all of this could've been avoided if TC just didn't put void into the game smh !

[spark valve]

The fact that it physically attacks itself is goofy as hell

[craggy smelt]

this really - in the first game, Void can mimic Soul-based magicks and behavior
besides TK's Void-blended spells, the Shade itself can learn entirely Void-based spells derived from the Soul ones
in Pharloom, the Void is reacting to GMS threads - the threads are everywhere, the Void travels along it, and is duplicating the effects of the Haunting
it's all Void-Haunted

[spark valve]

Me when my leg is acting up so I have to stab it a little bit

[foggy fractal]

EXACTLY

like why does it have to physically attack itself ?? unless theres a timer until tk could control those tendrils ??

[craggy smelt]

yeah, that part is weird
it was maybe silly to think it could command all the Void everywhere in the world all the time, but it should at least be able to command all Void locally...
maybe it was all riled up from having Great Mother Silk down in there thrashing around and it needed a little bit of extra exertion to back down

[foggy fractal]

trying so hard to make it work logically smh

[peak harbor]

OH WAIT, my mistake. i didn’t notice the knight’s horns grow more pronounced than their usual sprite in the dream no more ending so i assumed it was thk in its previous form because the horns look similar

[polar yacht]

Hm ok. But regardless they have 2 brain cells. No thought behind those eyes

[sinful nimbus]

Why would this be the case

[craggy smelt]

no mind to think, only floof to be frennd

[sinful nimbus]

The implication is that there's just one big mass of void at the bottom of the world

Not multiple disconnected ones

[craggy smelt]

I said it was weird

[polar yacht]

Well there could still be multiple disconnected ones and big pools of void form over civilizations

[peak harbor]

tbf even if the knight has the void heart the void contains thousands of individual sentient minds thanks to all the shades inside so maybe the unification isn’t complete and absolute control

[foggy fractal]

how does the knight get to pharloom if there isn't a big mass of void at least connecting hallownest to pharloom ?
like does it just have to break a bunch of walls like dig a trench ? or can it just fly there ??

[craggy smelt]

maybe Silk's presence was like an infection and the Shade Lord is like an immune response

[terse warren]

smh assuming that EtV is the canon one when DnM is right there

[craggy smelt]

twisted spaaaaces, let's gooo

[sinful nimbus]

It can probably materialize wherever void is

Them being the same entity and all

[terse warren]

tbh i imagine the void being like all around the planet core

[foggy fractal]

ig so ?

[sinful nimbus]

Physical barriers shouldn't matter nor should physical distance but the latter apparently does

[terse warren]

it seems to be like a sea at the bottom of the world

[foggy fractal]

not the void at the core thing just tk being able to materalize anywhere there is void

[peak harbor]

i imagine the void as something like the earth’s mantle tbh

[foggy fractal]

yep

[craggy smelt]

i think something similar
ie. Void at the bottom of everything
(only in my mind it's not a planet, just a world of underground forever)

[terse warren]

whatever it is, yeah

[sinful nimbus]

That's what the shadow creeper journal entry implies

[terse warren]

that too could be possible but distance apparently doing things to void heart is definitely a moment

[terse warren]

void sea at the bottom of everything that's entirely connected?

[foggy fractal]

yes oml 😭 void heart got nerfed now it has a range limit

[craggy smelt]

more that Hornet suspects she'll find shadow creepers wherever in the world she is if she goes deep enough

implying that the Abyss is everywhere

[foggy fractal]

whats the exact dialogue ?

[sinful nimbus]

That void is always at the bottom of the world

[foggy fractal]

sounds about right

[sinful nimbus]

(Which does imply that its a connected sea too)

[amber bridge]

that sounds bittersweet and creepy however you interpret it

[foggy fractal]

I see

[terse warren]

btw aside from TE where are we getting that it's specifically a range thing?

[terse warren]

the knight just swimming 5 pools to get to hornet in time to save her

[spark valve]

I guess tendrils in abyss snapping at you

[foggy fractal]

I don't think anything else besides TE but what else could it be ? that the void was really agitated because of GMS, Hornet and Lace which explains why tk has to slash the tendrils away ?

[terse warren]

well but why range out of all limitations

[reef jetty]

Is this insane?

[tawdry flare]

Could be that it just simply didn’t recognize Hornet since she wasn’t submerged without the Everbloom beforehand

[spark valve]

I’m can’t exactly think of a more feasible one

[undone fable]

mfs already got a mobile port, also wrong channel

[spark valve]

Ok but it’s still out of character

[terse warren]

yeah true tk not giving a shit is a bit out of character

[tawdry flare]

The void still attacking things?

[terse warren]

that's not insane that is piracy and not a good thing

[spark valve]

Even if it doesn’t know it’s hornet under the knight’s control it shouldn’t be attacking by default

[foggy fractal]

yeah tk literally carries Hornet and Lace outta the sea of void to safety

[reef jetty]

Gog

[foggy fractal]

better than my Nyleth kill

[lofty otter]

What is tk

[tawdry flare]

This looks more like cloud streaming

[iron whale]

The knight

[terse warren]

i mean it's also weird that TK had to slash the tentacles in the first place since they got there already?

[foggy fractal]

the knight

[terse warren]

true

[lofty otter]

Thank you

[tawdry flare]

It’s for dramatic effect

[foggy fractal]

probably the case lmao

[craggy smelt]

they could've just stopped cold and then backed off

[foggy fractal]

tc does not care for consistent lore

[lofty otter]

What if the void was only temporarily controlled by tk

[spark valve]

I don’t think there’s any way around that being bullshit

[foggy fractal]

yeah if it was consistent with what was established before
if only man if only

[undone fable]

the knight and his siblings swimming from hallownest to pharloom is a really funny idea

[burnt summit]

I've got a question. After beating Lace 2, you get this like silk flashback or whatever you want to call it where i guess it's GMS speaking, she talks about making lace and says "one to wish OUR waking". Is there a second person on that sentence or does GMS just speak in first person plural to refer to herself?

[tawdry flare]

TK had to aura farm in front their sister obv

[foggy fractal]

trueeeeeee

• another 1billion aura for the knight

who already has a lot of aura 🥶

[terse warren]

hype moments and aura rahhhh

[sinful nimbus]

The tendrils weren't even actually hostile in the first place it was for show

[foggy fractal]

😭

[drowsy mortar]

Ballador looks like the Unravelled ngl

[terse warren]

i THINK the only explanation would be that TK can move extremely fast in the void and by the time they got there the tentacles already gained momentum so- yeah this is bullshit

[spark valve]

Trying to scare her straight from ever trying that shit again

[foggy fractal]

the knight was there and controlled the tendrils to fake an attack and cut itself to aura farm !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[craggy smelt]

i'm fine with the Void still generally being hostile out in the world, cuz its not like TK would necessarily care about some fools messing with it
'reap what you sow, fools'
only showing up to save Hornet when its clear its her

[foggy fractal]

yeah theres the silksong shamans, the new confessor jiji looking mf who also mess with void I don't think tk would care

[terse warren]

clearly it's characterization for TK

No will to break, no mind to think, no voice to cry suffering, but plenty of hype moments to aura farm

[foggy fractal]

TRUE

[sinful nimbus]

That's why it does godhome and colo 3 when there's no clear benefit

[foggy fractal]

more the case that the Unravelled was a Conductor at one point

[terse warren]

"hold on hornet i know our kingdom is dying but i HAVE to style on these plebians"

[limpid summit]

Is Styx dead like Tuk in Steel Soul

[green yoke]

I have been calling that mfer the Untethered for like 3 days how have I not realised the name

[craggy smelt]

styx's dead, baby
styx's dead

they apparently get replaced by an NPC called Skynx who buys your silkeaters

missed opportunity to call the npc 'Stones'

[runic musk]

yea and the difference between them and Jinn is uh

Skynx gives like half as much as Jinn.

you are simply not allowed to not have a good source of money in this game even in Steel Soul

[craggy smelt]

get good at courier routes

[runic musk]

Basically. The Fleatopia one gives 480 rosaries.

[runic musk]

Btw if you play Needoline near them they just scream and theres no dialogue

I thought they were gonna lash out

[quartz flicker]

I found a good tool for merging screenshots.

[quartz flicker]

image doing this instead of just beating up pilgrims or something

[runic musk]

Yea still better to just farm basic enemies.

The First Shrine is the best to my knowledge

[quartz flicker]

can someone make sure this image is sufficiently high quality after the upload. such that the text can be read

it's readable as the file I have saved

[paper python]

yup can zoom in and read just fine

[fast sedge]

What's the tool?

[cosmic geyser]

I presume she means her kind

Though I don’t fully understand who bound the grand mother to slumber and how

I feel like I’m close to getting it

[quartz flicker]

quickpicturetools . com / en / combine_images

[spark valve]

Weavers did using something like the snare setter as well as the citadel to keep her that way

[cosmic geyser]

How

[spark valve]

How what

[cosmic geyser]

Like how did they manage to do it

As I understand it, outer bugs learned that the weavers were immortal due to their communion with the grand mother

So they took them prisoner and had them seal their god

[spark valve]

No

Weavers did that of their own volition

[cosmic geyser]

Why

[spark valve]

To break free of their ‘naive foundation’

[cosmic geyser]

So the grand mother turned bugs into the weavers

And then the weavers used her gifts against her

I feel like I’m missing something here

[foggy fractal]

specifically Pharlids I think you can see it in the first sinner cutscenes

[cosmic geyser]

Yeah, a lesser bug

[foggy fractal]

Pharlid being that common spider enemy

[cosmic geyser]

Divine intervention.

I still feel like the weavers were coersed into this

Because not only is it clear the citidel vastly enjoyed the splendor of silk

But they themselves did not create or discover it.

Hell, they treated the weavers as evil spawn

[spark valve]

The citadel caste showed up later and ousted the weavers well after gms was sealed

[terse warren]

GMS makes Weavers>Weavers make Citadel>Weavers think GMS is not a good political leader>Weavers seal GMS>Caste arrives>Caste thinks Weavers are not good political leaders>Caste takes over Citadel by force

[celest gull]

what they mean the ending ||"sister of the voids"|| ||how is hornet related to void?|| something to do with her pale bloodline?

[cosmic geyser]

This sounds right?

Maybe the weavers felt they were being controlled by the grand mother?

And wanted autonomacy

[fast sedge]

Who's ordering the captures of weavers from other kingdom?

[spark valve]

She is the sister of the lord of shades

[terse warren]

Have you not played HK?

[terse warren]

GMS who has recently woken up and taken control of the Citadel. She's taking Weavers to use their silk to sustain Lace

[celest gull]

I did. she's decendent of pale king and herra?

[cosmic geyser]

She’s a half sibling to the vessels

and the vessels were essentially the daughter of two pale beings, cast into void

[foggy fractal]

Vessels and thus the The Knight, are creations of Pale King and White Lady
Hornet is the daughter of the Pale King and Herrah

[timber pond]

White lady says pale beings and the void are linked from origin in some way

[celest gull]

no? vessels are from pale king and white lady?

[teal shell]

same dad makes her the sister of the void creatures

[cosmic geyser]

Yeah she’s white, she’s pale

[terse warren]

Not impossible

It might also be that GMS was just bad at politics she's not exactly the best at many things

[spark valve]

Which makes them siblings through their father

[cosmic geyser]

Her daughters do be kinda crazy tho

[terse warren]

Yes that is because she is not exactly a good mother

[teal shell]

i only share mother with my younger brother, hes still my brother, hornet has the same dad thus making the vessels her non gendered siblings

[cosmic geyser]

[terse warren]

Tbf it's not her fault, she was locked into sleep for who knows how long and physically couldn't raise her two daughters

[teal shell]

being the sister of the shadelord does kinda make her the sister of the void

[terse warren]

Wdym "kinda"

[celest gull]

only one ending in act3 right? maybe plus the mister mushroom

[terse warren]

Void is (supposed to be) unified

Any Void means all Void

[foggy fractal]

do we have a term for this irl ? just Half-sibling as in only sharing one parent ?

[teal shell]

the supposed to be because the void still goes to attack hornet so clearly not all void

[teal shell]

just half brother, half sister

[foggy fractal]

gotcha

[terse warren]

Hornet is sister of every vessel, they're all made of Void, so she is sister of the void

[cosmic geyser]

One ending, but it’s clear they intend to continue the story from there

[teal shell]

step brother step sister is same parent but not thier bio child

[terse warren]

Well that's because of Hype moments and Aura

[teal shell]

shadelord hyping themself up for entry that only 1 person will see

[timber pond]

I know team cherry said they didn't want to do hollowknight stuff after silksong like years ago in the 2019 AMA,but they said they had so much fun with it and that they could continue to make it for years. With the mister mushroom post credits saying the same thing it did in hollowknight, I wonder if they have changed thier mind😂

[foggy fractal]

we had a discussion about this earlier
theres no way to explain why the knight has to attack the tendrils without it retconning something else

[teal shell]

“now go towards her so i can have a sick entrance “

[teal shell]

hopefully dlc will go into sum more detail

[drowsy mortar]

So we know that the robots have souls

[foggy fractal]

yeah I think its geninuely the case of TC forgetting something established before and just wanted to make smth cool

[drowsy mortar]

Do we think that when the Silk experiments failed the Citadel bugs started trying to turn themeselves into robots...?

[teal shell]

it’ll probably just be united void being more symbolic not literal

[sinful nimbus]

(it was not in fact cool)

[sinful nimbus]

It was very literal in HK

[drowsy mortar]

Because we know they wanted to be immortal

[terse warren]

Actually there is just no way to explain it case and point, it contradicts itself. The fact that the Void was aggressive while it wasn't there can be retconned with "range limit". But TK having to attack the tendrils makes 0 sense at all

[foggy fractal]

yeah

[teal shell]

its probably more of the knight being a “ruler” while the void still has its own will

[timber pond]

The void seems like it spans thr entire world. And Little ghost unifies it when he's near.

Also the Actuall Hollow knight dosent apesr to be present there. Meaning the godmaster ending might be the cannon one.

[terse warren]

In the first game the void was unified it didn't establish a monarchy

[quartz flicker]

hopefully this one also retains it's quality after upload

[honest spade]

oh wait nwm

[teal shell]

didnt mean a literal monarchy, itd be more of an alpha system like wolves

[sinful nimbus]

That's not how it worked in HK

[terse warren]

Wolves also don't have an alpha system

[sinful nimbus]

In HK TK and the void were quite literally the same entity

[teal shell]

swear they do

[sinful nimbus]

Only because I'm not a wolf

[teal shell]

rip points ruined jumping into a hole

[foggy fractal]

TK having to attack the tendrils instead of just making it calm vexxes me

[polar yacht]

dawg I come back after an hour and we still taking about the void

[terse warren]

Silksong as a whole vexes me so much. Just come on Team Cherry why so many retcons

[teal shell]

if i had to assume anything itd maybe be more like countries uniting, they still have their own goals and priorities but have a semblance of structure with others i guesssssss

[foggy fractal]

it is a pretty central part of the game and true ending so I think its fair

[teal shell]

but this is copium

[polar yacht]

[olive glen]

Oh huh City of Steel

[foggy fractal]

https://tenor.com/view/koffa-house-md-gregory-house-house-eric-foreman-gif-3254275732664605731

[quartz flicker]

I think it might be the case that the unification has faded somewhat, with the Knight only remaining unified with it's other Kin.

[terse warren]

That image is literally me every time I think of the retcons

[teal shell]

the uk is “unified” but all the countries still do their own individual thing is kinda my point, its between that or the powrrs kinda just fading as theres no goal anymore

[foggy fractal]

how many do we have ? Herrah being a Weaver is one yes ? and all the void heart stuff... ugh...

[teal shell]

no evidence for what i said, its just cope

[terse warren]

Never before has it been stated that the unification can fade, and void is not really affected by time

[terse warren]

5

[teal shell]

getting into the “never been stated” falls apart it was never stated otherwise tbf

[timber pond]

I wonder if thats hollownest or somewhere else? City of steel as in the "masters" of steel souls Jinn?

[quartz flicker]

It wasn't said that it would remain unified forever.

[teal shell]

i worded that horridly my bad jesus english is my first language guys please believe me

[foggy fractal]

may you list them for me ?

[polar yacht]

Herrah being retconned I'm fine with tbh

[craggy smelt]

somewhere else, they refer to Hallownest as the 'Kingdom of the White Wyrm'

[terse warren]

1. Herrah is now Weaver
2. Hive went from not wanting anything to do with Hallownest to training the King's daughter
3. Lifeblood is now extremely dangerous even just with proximity
4. Snail Shamans are suckers for Void
5. Void Heart is poo poo and doesn't work

[cosmic geyser]

That’s fucking awesome

[cosmic geyser]

I thought we already knew 1.

[terse warren]

That's a Silksong retcon

[teal shell]

the void unified under the knights will to defeat the radiance, now thats gone its kinda just returned to a more primal state because theres no goal anymore

[timber pond]

Then it must be where the steel assassins and steel soul jinn hail from. Perhaps she sought them to seek answers about the void

[cosmic geyser]

I don’t think it’s a SS retcon

I always assumed she was a weaver.

[terse warren]

It's still a retcon

[cosmic geyser]

she uses silk 🥸

[teal shell]

can we not do the retcon talk again

[terse warren]

Herrah has not ever used silk

[teal shell]

it ends up in circles and circles

[craggy smelt]

that's the going theory, re. the steel bugs

[foggy fractal]

yeah there wasn't anything to suggest that Herrah herself was a Weaver, just that she ruled over Deepnest which Weavers came to reside in

[cosmic geyser]

Hornet does

The weavers were who ruled over deepnest

[terse warren]

Because she was trained by Weavers

[cosmic geyser]

And The pale king made a treaty with them and their weavers

[teal shell]

i personally believe its not really a retcon as it wasnt really stated otherwsie but i really dont wanna get back into this

[cosmic geyser]

Thus, we can assume herrah was a weaver

[terse warren]

But Herrah wasn't one because she looks completely different from them

[cosmic geyser]

She might not be pure blood

[terse warren]

She is

[craggy smelt]

Herrah was referred to as a 'common beast' by the shrumal - shows what they know

[terse warren]

Hornet is referred to as "half weaver" so Herrah was fully Weaver

[quartz flicker]

There are other bug species with different-looking members. Like the Skarrs

[cosmic geyser]

Yeah, that’s an in universe thing right

[foggy fractal]

yeah its tough having to look back at Hk to see if something was actually contradicted or does the new info work

[teal shell]

retcon talk turns pretty toxic pretty quick tbh

[cosmic geyser]

Oh facts that too!

[terse warren]

A discussion where people don't agree is not toxic

It's like, the basics of discussion

[teal shell]

it got pretty toxic yesterday ngl

[foggy fractal]

some people get really heated lmao

[teal shell]

not that i particularly helped but it ends up in circles and circles

[foggy fractal]

but I'm chill doe 🥶 !

[cosmic geyser]

LUL

[polar yacht]

I don't think it's fair to generalize all snail shamans as being suckers for void.

Just that the Snail Shamans in Pharloom are suckers for void.

Just a philosophical difference of individuals from Hallownest to Pharloom. Sort of like existentialism and stoicism.

[teal shell]

it ends up as me right you wrong lol

[quartz flicker]

Herrah might just be an unusual weaver.

[timber pond]

1 Herrah always seemed like just an Old Weaver.
2 hive might have been the same deal as deepest and the mantis tribe, a tenuous pact for a time but didn't really like eachother all the
same and kept to themselves
3 lifeblood can be safely absorbed by little ghost because he's void.
4 snail shamans deal in power of all types and seem to be made of void themselves for some reason as we absorb them in the first game
5 void heart probably only works based on proximity.

[foggy fractal]

how do we explain TK having to attack the tendrils instead of just controlling it !!!!

[teal shell]

auramaxxing

[quartz flicker]

TBH I don't think that Lifeblood is a big deal, but the Plasmium experiments were non-natural.

[teal shell]

doesnt lifeblood spread thruout corpses in hk or something which gives it some kind of infectious or parasitic nature

[craggy smelt]

snail shamans aren't void, but there was always the question as to why some of them burst into dark energy that reacts with the Knight's void
in light of SS lore that shows snail shamans can use soul magic to summon the void, those instances in the first game might be them doing just that
crossroads shaman doesn't recognize void magic when TK gets some from the Abyss, but that could just mean that crossroads shaman wasn't taught void magic, or Hallownest shamans didn't practice it widely
crossroads shaman isn't aware of everything his relatives do - he doesn't even know they're all dead

[timber pond]

Because void is inherently a power that must be dominated first and it seems endlessly vast. TK probably can sense all things within it though

[craggy smelt]

something something Silk's presence was a major disruption

[limpid summit]

He’s the same species as Huntress and she seems pretty demanding cause of her brood maybe the males are naturally subservient

[timber pond]

True, they probably just know how to harness all power

[quartz flicker]

-> Eight legs.

[foggy fractal]

also for 4 the snail shaman in hk says
"That scream? Ooohh, distorted in such a way... it's not within the skills of us snails to do such a thing. Wherever you draw this new power from, it's not a place my kind ever thought to look." which is clearly states that their kind does not dabble with the void

I did however also bring up points trying to make ss shamans still work and not contradict this statement, try look through my messages for those points it was a pretty lengthy discussion

[teal shell]

oh yeah tbf the void could just be tweaking out because of the silk and gms which is why the knight needs to put it in its place?

[terse warren]

1. That's just not true
2. Vespa straight up says AFTER SHE'S DEAD "we never had anything to do with Hallownest"
3. Lifeblood spread everywhere in Hallownest and we know that just proximity to it causes mutations as even stated by Hornet. It was also a popular substance so that doesn't track.
4. Snail Shaman in Crossroads straight up saying their kind never thought to look at the abyss. The reason we get Void spells is because we fuse the Shaman magic with our Void.
5. In HK we literally were in another plain of reality during the Radiance fight, so how would we have been able to bring Void in there if it's only proximity based?

[teal shell]

isnt deepnest and hallownest seen as distinct different things

[foggy fractal]

oh yeah I forgot about your point in 5

[terse warren]

Doesn't explain why her bottom half is so big

[teal shell]

no involvement in hallownest doesnt mean no involvement in deepnest

[terse warren]

Or why she has horns

[teal shell]

im just trying to do copium arguments here so if im wrong my bad

[quartz flicker]

herrah was big fan of yummers

[terse warren]

Hornet is the daughter of the Pale King of Hallownest

[timber pond]

The reason she's like that is probably because she had to give birth to hornet and it altered her physical form

[teal shell]

was that like widely known

[midnight vault]

she wasnt "The Beast" for nothing

[foggy fractal]

hmmmmmm

The Beast at the dinner table it seems.

🥶

[teal shell]

is hornet being specifically the kings daughter something that the hive would know

[craggy smelt]

takes a while to lose that baby weight

[terse warren]

Nothing to suggest that would have happened, still doesn't explain the horns

[limpid summit]

We don’t know if Hornet got trained by Vespa through Hallownest or through Deepnest. However there’s nothing in the Hive that shows there was a Deepnest deal (like the silk in WP) and aforementioned hive Hallownest stuff. Vespa is a retcon yes

[modern bay]

I'm nearly positive Herrah was always a weaver

[limpid summit]

Herrah was a “common beast”

[foggy fractal]

yeah

[terse warren]

I'd say it's a pretty important piece of information that would definitely get out

[timber pond]

Some weavers just look diffrent FS always had a Crack on her head from the cutscene

[sinful nimbus]

Ghost wasn't the only one to have lifeblood btw

[limpid summit]

Likely a Deepnest spider like the devouts and midwife, one with low status

[quartz flicker]

I'm thinking that Vespa was hopeful that Hornet being friendly with the Hive would be advantageous for them.

[teal shell]

i just dont like the “x doesnt look like y so that means they cant be y” argument tbf

[sinful nimbus]

Ellina and Salubra ingest it and are perfectly fine
Its implied that wherever lifeblood is those "aberrations" follow which is totally inconsistent with the first game and is undeniably a retcon

[quartz flicker]

makes the Pale King less likely to fuck with them

[modern bay]

Common beast in this kingdom could simply mean she wasn't among the divine in terms of the civilization

[terse warren]

Doesn't explain Vespa's dialogue "We didn't want anything to do with the kingdom"

[teal shell]

hornet being a protector of hallownest couldve expanded to protecting the hive by proxy

[small cave]

1. Skarrs and a bunch if other bugs tbh show that there is variance within the same species.
2. Didn't Pale King ban it explicitly? And Joni was considered a heretic for it.
3. And yet some Snail shamans give you Void Upgrades so something doesn't add up here.

[terse warren]

It kinda is a good argument when we see like 20 weavers in a single shot and they all look the same though

[craggy smelt]

that was the shrumal's opinion, at least
if the Weavers came to Deepnest as refugees, they might have all been regarded as pretty low caste, compared to the established king of Deepnest's 'honored caste'

[foggy fractal]

also when did the Weavers move in to Hallownest ? if Herrah was a Weaver how does the timeline work ?

[sinful nimbus]

Nothing indicates it was banned by PK

It was described as a bit of a taboo and that was the most of it

[modern bay]

That's what I'm thinking

[sinful nimbus]

"a bit of a taboo" doesn't translate to "deforms your body intensely and spreads like an infection"

[terse warren]

1. Weavers are artificially evolved, and they all look the same except for Herrah. 3. What Star just said. 4. You didn't read point 4

[limpid summit]

Lowkey Herrah may have been the child of a Weaver and a common spider, leading to her status. We know Weaver births are unlikely but not impossible

She doesn’t give any indication of coming directly from Pharloom

[terse warren]

Herrah has to have been a full weaver as hornet is only half weaver, not a fourth

[timber pond]

Yeah lifeblood was widely used, but there is a reason why it says Joni was a heretic and that lifeblood was banned after a point. Because its both Cancer and Crack.

I agree snail shamans vary, so its safe to say that they deal in forms of power and individuals have diffrent levels of knowledge when it comes to that power.

TK unifies the void in the proximity of hallownest , perhaps its range of influence is only about a kingdom wide.

[midnight vault]

tbh if it got as out of control with Joni as it did in Wormways I'd think taboo would be putting it lightly

[teal shell]

could herrah have came from the surface, explaining her she looks different despite being weaver, its adaptations to survive the environment, itd explain why she isnt exactly praised

[limpid summit]

Who says half weaver?

I remember “lineage”

[sinful nimbus]

Joni was portrayed as a special case

[modern bay]

They don't all look the same, we have the spider woman below Deepnest who tries to eat you as an example, pretty sure she's a weaver, no?

[sinful nimbus]

In the context of HK she was pretty clearly magically linked to the substance not just a regular user

[limpid summit]

Midwife is not a weaver

[foggy fractal]

yeah every weaver we've seen has a big round head even first sinner doesn't deviate from this too much