sk-lore

[safe barn]

Ahhh thx

[barren valley]

oh really?

I was pretty confused on the citadel origin

[covert tusk]

Legendary fyp

[humble iron]

The citadel's symbol is a weaver playing the harp, the same harp that was used to put GMS to sleep I'd assume

[lost lion]

is that the consensus now? I took a day off

[spark valve]

it's explicitly stated

[uncut holly]

I mean heck, Pale King ascended normal bugs and taught them to go above instinct, could also be interpretted as very close to what GMS did minus form changing. Why would the Weavers be mad at that? They worshipped Pale King for it.

[cosmic geyser]

Hey, can you overdose on lifeblood?

[burnt summit]

I suppose that was weavers doing? With them harps and all.

[golden olive]

yea

[lost lion]

where?

[spark valve]

You speak of the Citadel? Its former function has failed, but I can still sense its purpose, some. It is church and cage both.[NPC]:Aye. Devised by your ancestors that monstrosity, and their wicked, clever minds. A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule

[cosmic geyser]

They’re getting awfully squiggly up there

[safe barn]

I mean ig if Herrahs group are anything to go by and the weavers in the game I don’t think any of them liked GMS

[lost lion]

damn where'd that come from

[spark valve]

mask maker dialogue

[golden olive]

tammo r u getting these texts from the wiki? is there like a document with the game's script

[lost lion]

oh is that from completing his laquer>

[spark valve]

there's a document with all the text

[sinful nimbus]

send

[burnt summit]

How does the citadel function as a cage exactly?

[uncut holly]

It keeps GMS asleep with music

[golden olive]

senddd

[safe barn]

Ok so they put her to sleep just to leave?

[spark valve]

it keeps her asleep

[blissful harbor]

hoarding it all to yourself, gluttony is a sin tammo smh

[burnt summit]

Sure but where does the music come from in the citadel?

[spark valve]

I just made a copy of it and apparently the original poster deleted it it'll be a pain to send but give me a minute

[lost lion]

the choir

[uncut holly]

Music is made all around from the thread, and from the steam

[barren valley]

maybe it’s that she started controlling the citadel people from her sleep to hunt down the weavers?

[uncut holly]

Many harps, many bells, many steam organs

[safe barn]

That might actually make sense

[lost lion]

thats kinda what the JE implies, that while she sleeps her threads spread throughout pharloom and control the population to carry out her will

[spark valve]

some left, some stayed, I would imagine the ones who fled did so before she got snared

[barren valley]

so perhaps it was the weavers who started the whole conflict with GMS? After finding their true nature they were enraged and betrayed GMS and she hunted them down from her cage?

[humble iron]

nope, to rule at that point in the story it seems

[safe barn]

Also bit off topic but what is Eva exactly?

[barren valley]

could also explain why she would want lace to be dependent on her

or at least a partial reason

[muted lantern]

Why does hornets coccoon have void in it?

[lost lion]

not void, just a corpse

[sinful nimbus]

It does not, void particles dont look like that

[muted lantern]

Hmm

[humble iron]

According to HK, everyone leaves a dark imprint when they die, "regret"

[golden olive]

didnt even work either like dis GMS bitch cant do a single thing right 😭

[safe barn]

Mossbags body is stored there

[sinful nimbus]

It seems like a decayed corpse yeah but the cocoon isn't canon on any level anyway

[burnt summit]

oh yeah i'm stupid

[covert tusk]

So what roles did the snail shamans play while disguised? Because whatever they are I’m pretty sure Sherma now has that role for the citadel specifically, which is a crazy character growth bros a pastor now iirc what they did

[barren valley]

I feel kinda bad for her now 😭

[muted lantern]

Also prob not canon but a fun way to make the dying and respawning mechanic diabetic is to believe hornet is developing a wyrms foresight

[golden olive]

same 😭 😭 😭

[barren valley]

she wants a family so bad but nobody likes her

[uncut holly]

The Shamans probably hid, theres a crazy zealot Citadel that killed all the other Civilizations and powerful people around.

[lost lion]

diabetic?

[muted lantern]

Diagetic, thanks autocorrect

[safe barn]

It’s giving princess bubblegum

[muted lantern]

Autocorrect

[lost lion]

lmao makes far more sense

[burnt summit]

What's the purpose of capturing hornet and the like, guessing it's more of a Weaver genocide since they were the ones who could stop her?

[humble iron]

Btw the implication of snail shamans being everywhere is very interesting

[muted lantern]

They want her silk

[ripe sable]

What's the lore on Nyleth, and why is her theme song so heartwrenchingly sad?

[uncut holly]

They want Hornet for silk reasons seemingly, GMS doesnt have anyone else.

Also GMS seemingly wants to possess Hornet.

[spark valve]

seems to be the same type of being as isma

[lost lion]

captured hornet to provide silk, she's ideal since she's an immortal weaver, most weavers die of aging

[muted lantern]

How so

[burnt summit]

Thought she made silk tbh

[barren valley]

oh I wonder if that’s part of the betrayal they felt

[golden olive]

oh wait i didn't know that, is it in her needolin dialogue?

[spark valve]

hornet being alive isn't actually essential for gms's needs, it might be preferable but the immortality part is at least not crucial

[ripe sable]

She was the guardian of Shellwood, but i feel like there's something missing

Because even compared to Isma, it's a lot more tragic themically speaking

[uncut holly]

I dont completely understand it, but GMS seemingly has a finite amount of something, because theres a crisis that their trying to get Weavers alive back home.

[cosmic geyser]

I’m gonna see if I can overdose on life blood

Wish me luck

[humble iron]

It's tragic because she's fucking dead or smth

[lost lion]

it was so funny cause my first thought was that "shes probably like the white lady" and then she screamed at me and scared the hell out of me

[safe barn]

I’m a bit confused on that, first sinner is called “ancient” how old can they get or is it dependant on how much silk they produce

[cosmic geyser]

They might be the first weaver

[muted lantern]

Of all the names in pharloom why is one boss called Seth, is he named after someone irl? Is he a backer character?

[cosmic geyser]

That might be her memories.

[uncut holly]

There is only 1 Weaver around that isnt the First Sinner, in Pharloom and thats Widow. Widow has problems where their silk is broken, and they cant weave on it.

[lost lion]

backer character

[lost lion]

silk is bound*

[humble iron]

considering that they were created by a higher being, it's no surprise that they can live long

[spark valve]

seth is named after seth goldman as a sort of make a wish situation

[muted lantern]

Fair enough, a very powerful backer character

[uncut holly]

They seemingly are trying to get Weavers for some reason.

[barren valley]

I’m testing to remember what lace said to hornet about her being the one GMS really wants

[humble iron]

Backer character that passed away

[uncut holly]

Its likely that the reason is related to maintaining Lace.

[muted lantern]

Ah that makes sense

[safe barn]

Seth is just your friendly neighbourhood guy nothing suspicious about him and he totally wasn’t a guardian of anything

[cosmic geyser]

He was a backer character form ages ago, but the kid who made the character died of cancer

[lost lion]

thats lace being moody, not what gms actually thinks

[cosmic geyser]

So team Cherry decided to pay their respects by making him a whole boss

[muted lantern]

Makes his fight all the more tragic

[barren valley]

right right but surely she has some insight into why they want weavers?

[humble iron]

I feel like GMS wanted the silk for Lace but Lace interpreted it as GMS wanting Hornet more than her

[golden olive]

for sure

[lost lion]

yeah pretty much

[barren valley]

mmmm that’s really interesting

[uncut holly]

Whats confirmed is that Lace is crazy, and over-reacts and kills her own parent.

[golden olive]

so is lace just doomed after the sister of the void ending

[muted lantern]

I'm really sad the boss of coral tower wasn't lobster lancer

[humble iron]

She's a nihilist by the end

[lost lion]

maybe

[uncut holly]

Lace blames her parent for her existing.

[barren valley]

hornet might be able to save her

[safe barn]

Doomed yuri?

[muted lantern]

To be fair she found her older sister abandoned to slowly rot away, so it's not too strange to assume the same would happen to her

[lost lion]

I personally think she's gonna be fine for a while, eespecially considering GMS probably gave much of her "godhood" to lace and hornet when she tried to get them out of the void, so we don't really know]

[uncut holly]

I mean Laces mom probably did all of this for her, just to maintain her. I think thats where this is all going. Minus the intial break up with the Weavers.

[golden olive]

yeah i think its implied they travel on the surface together? with the title screen after doing the ending being a needle and a pin?

[uncut holly]

Everything after the Weaver break up was probably all the maintain Lace.

[burnt summit]

I'd be inclined to believe so since keeping her alive seemed to be GMS's goal. She wouldn't help you get out if she didn't believe you were saving her

[muted lantern]

Lace is hornets adopted child now

[humble iron]

Could also be that phantom is very bitter and convinced Lace that the same fate awaits her

[lost lion]

adopted sister*

[muted lantern]

Either or

[humble iron]

they are like around the same age range

[uncut holly]

Its weird if Phantom is on the same level as Lace because we kill them so nonchalant

[barren valley]

also aunt?

[lost lion]

she compares lace to the knight so i'd say sisterly

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet is way older

[barren valley]

well phantom is like dying

[muted lantern]

Yeah but isn't it stated lace has the mind of a child?

[sinful nimbus]

Technically lace is old but she's mentally and physically a child

Hornet is like a grandma

[golden olive]

and body. apparently. this fuckass game

[cosmic geyser]

Ok chat, I don’t have enough white stones to test it

[humble iron]

You underestimate how ancient Lace also is

[uncut holly]

Elderbug is the youngest bug in Hollow Knight

[lost lion]

test what?

[cosmic geyser]

Chat, can you overdose on lifeblood synergies?

[uncut holly]

Sly is older probably

[spark valve]

lace might be older than hornet

[barren valley]

do we think it’s fair to call hornet a descendant of GMS if she uplifted the weavers?

[burnt summit]

Also the knight looking to help hornet ends the debate on wether the knight was vhollow or not right?

[lost lion]

you can overdose on lifeblood, I don't think with just the syringes though

[humble iron]

There was never a debate on that

[cosmic geyser]

So, architect lets you refill your tools without benching using silk.

[lost lion]

ah

[cosmic geyser]

I’ve already gotten it up to 8

[lost lion]

lemme test

[cosmic geyser]

I bet I can get it way higher. What’s the overdose point?

[burnt summit]

sorry, i typed void instead of hollow. He's clearly void lmao

[barren valley]

oh no

[muted lantern]

Honestly I don't understand why people still ship lacenet considering lace canonically is a child forever

[uncut holly]

I think its going with a theory that Nosk in Godhome turned into Hornet, so maybe the Knight cares a tiny bit about Hornet.

Question is, is it hollow then

[humble iron]

Doesn't really settle on wether or not he's hollow either does it ?

[safe barn]

You overdose on 8 I think

[sinful nimbus]

Lacenet is dead.
Churchkeeper x Caretaker is dead.
Long live the gay robots

[muted lantern]

Also I find it very funny pale king doesn't get a flashback, fuck his dork ass 3 moms for the win

[burnt summit]

Idk, i interpret them helping hornet to mean a will of some sort.

[uncut holly]

I thought it was going towards Pale King but no

[humble iron]

Honestly the pale king probably doesn't care about hornet, he saw her as a bargaining chip

[muted lantern]

Tru

[barren valley]

I thought she wasn’t even technically part of the deal

[humble iron]

Tbf the whole "being hollow" is kinda bs, because if you're truly hollow you can't even move or wield a weapon

[cosmic geyser]

Tbf so we’re most of the weavers

[uncut holly]

Hornet mentions Pale King, she thinks his attempts to tame the void were a failure, and seems to not be the biggest fan of all of his ambitions

[cosmic geyser]

They abandoned her cause kid her couldn’t make any silk.

[humble iron]

The queens however seemed to see her importance and potential

[uncut holly]

Hornet could make silk as a kid

She made her cloak

[barren valley]

oh also what are the snail shamans? I never really knew

[humble iron]

Or you know, perhaps the growing infection

[burnt summit]

Sure, i'm just saying that following the game's logic for the HK being not hollow cause he cared about the Pale King, then the knight caring at least to some extent about hornet seems to imply the same

[sinful nimbus]

Snails and shamans

They meddle with void and essence and primarily soul

[cosmic geyser]

I thought the point of the flashback with them scoffing at her and leaving was cause you couldn’t bind

[uncut holly]

Snail Shamans are soul and void related. What they are physically, is aup in the air. That one shaman in Hollow Knight has voidness to them.

[muted lantern]

That leaves to wondering who are people going to start shipping hornet with now? I assume Shakra but honestly I don't see it bc Shakra sees hornet as a child the whole game.

[uncut holly]

Maybe their void? Maybe their not void?

[humble iron]

I just thought it was them teaching her before inevitably leaving

[spark valve]

they vanish because hornet continues using their craft after they leave

[cosmic geyser]

I got the impression they rejected her, like she was a runt

[humble iron]

The shade soul and the descending dark ones both burst into void particle

[sinful nimbus]

It doesn't matter.. Nothing will compare

[muted lantern]

Honestly hornets 3 moms should have dated, pale king divorce arc

[spark valve]

they didn't reject her, very much the opposite. They wanted her to be their queen

[lost lion]

you can overdose on lifeblood with the syringe

[humble iron]

PK would probably still not care, he'd still be working out how to make a perfect vessel and whatnot

[uncut holly]

This is why charms are superior

[spark valve]

Greater, grander... Weaver, guardian, queen... Those are their desires... not your own. Certainly not mine..
this is herrah talking about the weavers

they didn't reject her

[safe barn]

Just did this gonna go to wormways in hopes that the alchemist has some different needolin dialogue

[sinful nimbus]

This is funny when you consider she's also a weaver

[kindred frigate]

i think its sad because its also used for ||seth, I know the theme is called nyleth but I think the sad part fits more for seth, knowing the backstory of the character and all||

[humble iron]

She's a weaver but she's not playing the role of one ig

[spark valve]

prove yourself more weaver than wyrm and shit

[burnt summit]

The whole three moms idea was not canon in HK right? although it was widely accepted as truth.

[safe barn]

Overdosing on lifeblood makes you able to naturally regenerate health?????

[lost lion]

not true btw, she calls her hornet wielding needle later on

[sinful nimbus]

Yes it was impossible with the lore as we understood it in HK

[humble iron]

it was mentioned by the dev but not ingame

[sinful nimbus]

TC waking up one day and deciding it would be cool if they completely changed the hives lore

[humble iron]

Not really, it was just vespa that decided to train hornet, doesn't change that the hive was isolationist

[muted lantern]

Most of the game, my point still stands that Shakra thinks of her as a child most of the game so I don't see them entering a relationship.

[burnt summit]

The hives lore was already messed up by the wanderers journal if i remember correctly.

[sinful nimbus]

Those two options are exclusive

[humble iron]

No ?

[sinful nimbus]

Also the hive isn't known for their steelwork i dk what they were smoking

[sinful nimbus]

Nah

[muted lantern]

Vespa isolated from pale kings dork ass but her and herrah were chill

[barren valley]

wait actually?

[spark valve]

it's very weird that vespa would train hornet but not technically impossible

[sinful nimbus]

You cannot decide to be separate from the matters of other kingdoms while also being involved in helping to ensure the safety of one of their heirs

[humble iron]

Hivesteel is for sure retroactive, but you can be the queen of an isolationist kingdom and still train hornet

[sinful nimbus]

Its super out of character

[muted lantern]

Also we consider the possibility that Vespa and herrah were always close, so it's an exception

[humble iron]

Could be that white lady was in good terms with Vespa and asked for a favour asw

It's just PK that has beef

[sinful nimbus]

This is silly and not at all in the first game

[spark valve]

at the end of the day it doesn't really matter why she did it

[high bane]

Out of what character? Vespa has a whole one conversation of dialogue before this. We barely know enough about her to say that things are "out of character".

[burnt summit]

I mean the hive knight had a sword and armour. Doesn't seem so crazy

[humble iron]

Yeah it's not crazy for sure

But probably not thought of at the time

[green yoke]

I'd say the most likely option is that hornet was exploring Hallownest and found the Hive entrance. It's weird for them to train her I admit

[barren valley]

well we didn’t know enough about vespa to have a full and complete understanding of her character

[sinful nimbus]

Its not that they and Hallownest were on bad terms it was that the hive was isolationist and wasn't interested in interacting with outsiders

[sinful nimbus]

We knew enough for this to be laughably out of left field

[muted lantern]

The only retcon I personally see is why is the delicate flower more related to the white lady now than ze'mer?

[humble iron]

The hive is a kingdom, the individuals in the kingdom can make their own decisions

[spark valve]

the most direct retcon is snail shamans and void

[humble iron]

especially the queen

[humble iron]

How so ?

[sinful nimbus]

Vepsa is their leader

[barren valley]

I just don’t agree, knowing the general political stance of a kingdom does not mean that we know enough about vespa personally

[humble iron]

Snail shamans have been shown to dabble in the void shit in HK

[sinful nimbus]

She was their political representative

[spark valve]

in hk they've explicitly never even heard of the stuff in ss suddenly now their whole kind is interested in the shit

[sinful nimbus]

She called the shots

[spark valve]

this is completely false

[humble iron]

You get shade soul from a snail shaman corpse. You get descending dark from a snail shaman corpse

[muted lantern]

Snail shamans give you half the void spells lol

[humble iron]

how is that not dabbling in void stuff

[sinful nimbus]

The void comes from the knight

[barren valley]

right and political representatives throughout history have on numerous occasions done things in private that did not follow with the stance of their kingdom as a whole

[muted lantern]

By exploding in void particles

[spark valve]

snail shaman describes these phenomena, they aren't the source of the void

[random harbor]

Snail Shaman - Reacting to spells - Reacting to Shade Soul

What's this? My vengeful gift has warped within you. You've twisted it into something... else.
Ohohohoh! I knew it. My friend! You're a marvel. Your essence has melded with the spell.
You must have found a powerful source to transform it in such a unique, expressive way.

@starpengu used /npcs misc name: Snail Shaman category: Reacting to spells dialogue: Reacting to Shade Soul

[humble iron]

They aren't the source of it either in silksong

[sinful nimbus]

They are the ones who summon the void

[random harbor]

Snail Shaman - Reacting to spells - Reacting to Abyss Shriek

That scream? Ooohh, distorted in such a way... It's not within the skills of us snails to do such a thing.
Wherever you draw this new power from, it's not a place my kind ever thought to look.

@tammo6424 used /npcs misc name: Snail Shaman category: Reacting to spells dialogue: Reacting to Abyss Shriek

[spark valve]

Wherever you draw this new power from, it's not a place my kind ever thought to look.

[high bane]

You literally get Shade Soul off of a Snail Shaman's corpse.

[muted lantern]

When you break the crystalized shaman it explodes into void

[spark valve]

no it doesn't

[green yoke]

They're still involved in the acquisition of the skill though?

[sinful nimbus]

Black doesn't equal void, otherwise Hornet would be void

[spark valve]

reading is hard

[humble iron]

Also snail shamans are not a singular entity, the snail shamans in pharloom might be more knowledgable

[uncut holly]

Yeah Snail Shamans probably got retconned

[safe barn]

I mean they’re known liars are they not?

[burnt summit]

Having a deal between rulers seems normal. It'd be weird if hornet was just a random and they let her but a King's daughter sounds understandable.

[spark valve]

the knight uses snail shamans as just batteries to make ITS OWN VOID merge with the spell

[high bane]

You also get Descending Dark off of a snail shaman.

[spark valve]

they are not whatsoever no

[barren valley]

I wonder if hornet will call up the knight for any future godkilling endeavors

[spark valve]

already addressed this it's the same as shade soul, the void comes from the KNIGHT

[vast knot]

man the final boss sucks so much it kind of ruins whatever vibes the story had going on dramatically

[sinful nimbus]

If anything its the opposite, they chose to stay out of political matters so training Hornet is a very unnatural direction for the story to take

[sinful nimbus]

You get it man

[green yoke]

So you're saying they're more soul based than void based

[spark valve]

the only spell that's actually mutated by external void is abyss shriek, which the snail says is not within the abilities of snails and comes from a place his kind never thought to work

[spark valve]

snail shamans are yes

[green yoke]

How so?

[safe barn]

First thing snail shaman does in HK is trap you in a cage?

[muted lantern]

https://youtu.be/o90iaXcb6ZA?si=ilK5vHYuTCG28ToH

[barren valley]

which one? I really liked both

[muted lantern]

Literally a clip of the shaman corpse exploding into void particles

[spark valve]

he ropes the knight into helping yes that doesn't mean everything he says is lying for no reason

[sinful nimbus]

TC starts out with a strong concept and then ruins it with an ugly Radiance knockoff followed by completely demolishing any shred of originality in the story with act 3

[spark valve]

it is not and if you would read for two seconds you would understand that

[high bane]

That's complete conjecture, though. I would assume that the "place they thought not to look" is in reference to the structures of the Abyss, which the Snail Shamans would obviously not know about because they can't get into the Abyss.

[random harbor]

Snail Shaman - Reacting to spells - Reacting to Shade Soul

What's this? My vengeful gift has warped within you. You've twisted it into something... else.
Ohohohoh! I knew it. My friend! You're a marvel. Your essence has melded with the spell.
You must have found a powerful source to transform it in such a unique, expressive way.

@tammo6424 used /npcs misc name: Snail Shaman category: Reacting to spells dialogue: Reacting to Shade Soul

[sinful nimbus]

He can't identify the void

[spark valve]

it's not conjecture it is what the shaman EXPLICITLY says "your essence has melded with the spell"

[safe barn]

I mean I wouldn’t take everything they say at face value the entirety of act 3 was because of a miscommunication between them and hornet

[spark valve]

that is not in any way a refutation of anything

[barren valley]

well he’s made of void so

[burnt summit]

It's not much of a political matter, but even then Vespa could understand that it was her position at danger by the coming back of the radiance, thus agreeing to help.

[vast knot]

its such an immense gd pushover I did my ||curse achievement|| in one try

I htink I got hit once

its so fucking easy and its like THIS is the big bad??? I know it kind of takes the place of the Hollow Knight fight + lace is the real fake final boss, but still

[humble iron]

Just cause this shaman doesn't know of the void doesn't mean others don't, it's not a retcon

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet's combat prowess has nothing to do with the sealing of the Radiance

It is entirely to ensure her safety

[spark valve]

he says unequivocally that it's a place his KIND has not ever looked

it's a retcon

[humble iron]

the hollow knight was also a pushover tbf

[green yoke]

Oh you mean GMS

[humble iron]

He does not know what his kind is up to man

[spark valve]

google what a retcon is

[sinful nimbus]

Why would he say that then

[vast knot]

did say "final boss" but I guess that's also my fault if in the same breath I say "lace is the real one anyways"

[humble iron]

He is not all knowing, he probably only knows the snails of hallownest

[green yoke]

Even if he was saying that, he's referring to the snails of Hallownest.

[spark valve]

bruh

again GOOGLE WHAT A RETCON IS

you don't know what a retcon is

[outer stump]

And even with them his information is sketchy at best.

[humble iron]

that's what he believes

[golden olive]

not this retcon shit again

[vast knot]

hk was something but he's not required narratively to be a boss fight

[sinful nimbus]

Blame team cherry

[green yoke]

"a thing I think should be different based on my interpretation of a couple background elements years ago"

[burnt summit]

I mean she is somehow involved in the scheme isn't it. Since she seems to be looking to stop anyone trying to enter the black egg. but idk maybe i got it wrong.

[sinful nimbus]

The amount of time HK has been out does not matter...

[spark valve]

except it's not an interpretation it's what the snail shaman explicitly says can you read

[green yoke]

I'm on your side lmao

[sinful nimbus]

"Surely if its 7 years old nothing can be retconned from it" are we fr

[humble iron]

What the hell is your definition man

[spark valve]

the definition

[sinful nimbus]

A retcon is a retroactive change in the lore

[quartz flicker]

I think one of my main disappointments is us not being able to see what Hornet is like in the Weaver Queen ending.

[green yoke]

Explicitly stated details being changed retroactively

[spark valve]

they retroactively changed snails to like void

[sinful nimbus]

Why do they need to be explicitly stated

[humble iron]

They're stated by a biased narrator though

[spark valve]

media literacy is dead

[sinful nimbus]

I mean it is explicitly stated either way but that detail of your definition seems specifically tacked on to exclude stuff you like from being retcons

[green yoke]

Because otherwise that's not a retcon, that's just you disagreeing with the writers on which interpretation they used

[spark valve]

it's stated by somebody who by all indications is giving reliable information

[quartz flicker]

I get why that's not practical, but Hornet ascending to a pseudo-higher being is so damn interesting.

[burnt summit]

I mean does this imply his kind in all of the entire world or just her kind in hallownest. Idk if thats a knowledge you can have. But then again your interpretation seems valid aswell. Don't really care either way

[sinful nimbus]

You know some interpretations of not explicitly stated facts can be objectively correct, right?

[golden olive]

it might show up later u never know

[sinful nimbus]

Like genuinely you seem to have a fundemental misunderstanding of how truth and stories work

[golden olive]

SS what if comics might go hard

[vast knot]

UI gore in normal ending is funny I know its not relevant to anything but its just very goofy looking

[humble iron]

When he says "his kind", does he mean all the snail shamans ? Or just the ones of hallownest ? We have no info on that

[spark valve]

all snail shamans

[humble iron]

oh cause you just know

[spark valve]

you can tell because he says his kind, not his kind in the kingdom

[green yoke]

If you cannot prove a possibility, then it can always be wrong later when it is confirmed different

[spark valve]

those are whole ass different sentences 😭

yeah weavers might not actually all be made by gms sure by all indications they are and the game says they are but hey you know a different game could potentially come out and say otherwise so who knows

[green yoke]

You're implying this snail knows what all snails across the planet have done

[sinful nimbus]

It was proven that snail shamans did not dabble in void by virtue of a very knowledgeable NPC who is portrayed as reliable about his species saying they did not

[spark valve]

no I am implying that it is stated to be the case

which it is

then they retroactively go back and change it

[empty sierra]

ive been away for an hour yall still talking about the retcons? 😭

[green yoke]

Bro it doesn't stop

[obsidian quail]

now that i think about it wasn’t the whole reason Herrah went under was to have a daughter that can bear the title of queen? but she told hornet to not pay any heed to that as Herrah even doesn’t?

[spark valve]

we can come up with justifications all day for how it could make sense that they changed it, but they did change it

[quartz flicker]

do we even know if the hk world is on a planet

[spark valve]

she wanted a daughter to have a daughter first and foremost

[green yoke]

Are people really so upset that a new group of characters in a species have an interest that the old group didn't have

[golden olive]

what else would it be if not a planet 😭

[quartz flicker]

there's seemingly no Sun

[spark valve]

I know you don't understand what a retcon is or what anyone else is talking about, that is eminently clear

[queen sable]

Heeeelp: In the ||cog underground world|| how do you beat the random guy ||with shield and spear||? he blocks everything?!

[empty sierra]

wait could that tie in with how weavers apparently have trouble reproducing?

[golden olive]

oh actually asteroid would make sense

[spark valve]

it explicitly does

[quartz flicker]

maybe just an endless flat expanse

[barren valley]

wrong chat I think bestie

[spark valve]

My mothers shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task. [Hornet]:I know the curse well, Eva, for I am also it's victim, and spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits.

[empty sierra]

i always wondered what her motivation for having a daughter with the king was

maybe its just because she literally couldnt have one at all

[quartz flicker]

possibly no better candidates for a father

[spark valve]

one of them yes

[humble iron]

Unn was right there man 😔

[empty sierra]

pale kings game is unmatched

[barren valley]

can higher beings not have children with bugs normally?

[sinful nimbus]

It'd be less irritating if the snail shaman story was well written, like at all. But instead they rehashed the same story elements from the first game while disregarding all the themes that made those elements so good just to make a few contrived callbacks for hype moments and aura

[burnt summit]

Wasn't there some sort of Hallownest idea of them being the last and only civilization? Idk what knowledge they have of civilization afar from them.

[spark valve]

I mean there's only one example of an attempt and it worked

[quartz flicker]

we have a sample size of one

[obsidian quail]

ohhh gotcha, she’s a good mom

[sinful nimbus]

And retcons are inherently irritating either way

[empty sierra]

oh btw why was eva a failed child?

[spark valve]

that's the kingdom not the snails, and wasn't literally true

[obsidian quail]

herrah best mom

[spark valve]

too frail, couldn't exist outside her chamber

[barren valley]

I feel like it seems like that might be because she was a weaver?

[quartz flicker]

I don't even think different higher beings have that much in common physically

[barren valley]

but idk

[spark valve]

if anything that would be a barrier

[empty sierra]

like just randomly unlucky or did something cause her to be born that way

[quartz flicker]

like what even is the White Lady. what the heck is the Nightmare Heart.

[spark valve]

the weavers probably just couldn't muster enough magic to make her a proper god

[barren valley]

ig we don’t see much hybridization between bug species

[obsidian quail]

people still dying on the no retcon hill, put the swords down warriors

[golden olive]

u mean all of act 3?

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah

[obsidian quail]

it’s okay

[bright oyster]

what exactly is the retcon? i missed it

[burnt summit]

Nono obviously wasn't true, just saying that maybe the snails in hallownest do not have knowledge of people of distant lands.

[sinful nimbus]

Frankly the Grand Mother Silk in Act 2 is a rehash of the infection too

[empty sierra]

wgats wrong with the snail shaman story?

[spark valve]

it doesn't matter

[safe barn]

I mean some like Grimm or Radiance seem to rely on other sources to stay alive while the, Unn and pale king and white lady seem to not need that

[barren valley]

well I’m thinking if higher beings can’t, and weavers are closer than normal bugs it could explain both their difficulty reproducing normally and the ability to reproduce with the pale king but I’m just saying things tbh

[spark valve]

it's a retcon because something explicitly stated was then changed in a later entry, retcons often can be rationalized that doesn't make them not retcons

[golden olive]

idk i dont have any strong feelings on the snail shaman plotline, i always thought they had something to do with void so i never even realized there was a retcon

[sinful nimbus]

"hey guys look at the hk thing woaaaaah its the thing you saw last time!" is fairly irritating

[obsidian quail]

silksong needs a boss replay feature

[spark valve]

I don't know why they would categorically have a harder or easier time they have diverse natures some of them are fully non biological those ones probably can't reproduce but ones like pk seem to just fine

[empty sierra]

just because they reused old characters/concepts? or some reason specifically

[burnt summit]

I'm guessing pantheons or something of the sort are coming as the last content theyll add

[barren valley]

yeah maybe

[barren valley]

is it really the same thing? it feels like a pretty different story to me

[quartz flicker]

Do we know who originally decided to stick silk into bugs to try to make them never die?

[safe barn]

Might be just how they are. GMS seems to be made of silk while PK is a fully alive bug. Begs the question how WL and him were able to work it out

[spark valve]

like the guy? no, but it was the citadel caste

[quartz flicker]

A Citadel leader, presumably.

The Citadel is incredibly fascinating.

And there's still a lot we don't know

[barren valley]

were they under GMS’s influence or was that an original?

[golden olive]

i wish we knew more, i can't believe this is all we're working with for a long while

[spark valve]

that was an original which then led to them falling under her control

[quartz flicker]

Like, did Silk want the Citadel to be constructed?

[spark valve]

no, it was constructed to keep her dormant

[empty sierra]

im really wondering how long they wanna keep expanding this universe

[barren valley]

also for a city created by the weavers there’s very little weavers iconography, even though some of the architecture seems pretty old

[empty sierra]

dlc and then after

[spark valve]

it got taken over by force by the citadel caste they may have erased as much as they could

[empty sierra]

they really seem to be invested for now

[sinful nimbus]

I'm fine with the occasional callback. I just don't like them being in the spotlight, because if everything important is something you've already seen, the world feels a lot smaller.

This is particularly bad in the case of the Void since that had very specific thematic connotations that tied into HK's themes of regret and impermanence which are completely disregarded in Silksong.

[bright oyster]

what exactly is the political structure of the citadel? do the conductor/architects/seekers all share the same hierarchy or was someone above them like a mayor or governor?

[barren valley]

I see I see, I’m learning a lot

[spark valve]

it's a theocracy

[quartz flicker]

I'm pretty sure it was created by a bunch of greedy fanatics for their own glorification

[obsidian quail]

i also wish we saw more iconography

the Weavenests were peak

[spark valve]

[Hornet]:The bugs of your land, I have watched them, climbing towards their absolution without the flicker of a thought to what it means.[NPC]:Aye. But isn't it always such for those snared to serve your higher caste?[NPC]:Our mortal mob did once act some defiance, unawares maybe, but successful in part, goaded towards it by Weavers' will'n all.[Hornet]:You speak of the Citadel? Its former function has failed, but I can still sense its purpose, some. It is church and cage both.[NPC]:Aye. Devised by your ancestors that monstrosity, and their wicked, clever minds. A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule.
some mask maker dialogue

[barren valley]

but she would have some level of influence already at least via uplifting them right?

[safe barn]

What is the conductor using their silk for when we actually meet them?

[spark valve]

"By the will of the Conductors," we once boomed, and this Citadel shook at our decree.[NPC]:But the words... How hollow they echoed. The mantle of rule, claimed greedily from Pharloom's fading first children, those bitter Weavers... it was yoke, not crown.
and dialogue from the conductor about how they claimed power by force

[barren valley]

presumably life support?

[quartz flicker]

Was it even said anywhere that the Weavers created it? It was made with metallurgy.

[spark valve]

yes

[uncut shell]

I am a little annoyed that they turned lifeblood into ANOTHER mysterious force that mind controls bugs on top of the other three

[spark valve]

Devised by your ancestors that monstrosity, and their wicked, clever minds. A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule.

[sinful nimbus]

[bright oyster]

given his massive size, I interpreted that machine as a perpetual feeding tube, dude is a BIG boy

[barren valley]

it could be that more of it existed but GMS made them tear it down but idk

[bright oyster]

never stops eating

[obsidian quail]

hahahaha star is so funny

[spark valve]

she made them shut it off which is why it has been quiet and why she's able to wake up

[obsidian quail]

u get mind control, u get mind control

[barren valley]

oh I meant weaver iconography in the citadel sorry

[empty sierra]

thats true, but theres a lot of higher beings already in the universe, bringing in more and starting to build another one up would make the game very complex, it already has many new concepts, areas and bugs (to the point i personally just got fatigued by too much new content). bringing back the void is a cool way to keep it familiar still without having to re-explain things and make up another giant entity thats above GMS

[uncut shell]

why the hell did the girl from the first game not look horrifically disfigured if that’s all lifeblood did??

[quartz flicker]

who said this

[spark valve]

oh, in that case it wouldn't be GMS, it would be the conductors

[spark valve]

mask maker

[craggy smelt]

didn't overdose enough

[uncut shell]

neither did the worms though..

like yeah it would make sense if it was just the dosing but it was clearly taking over everything around it

[craggy smelt]

zylotol was spreading lifeblood through the whole area, exposing everything

[uncut shell]

unless the worms were microdosing lifeblood in the roof

[barren valley]

I don’t really understand how the different citadel groups emerged and what their individual deals are?

[uncut shell]

I’m pretty sure that was the lifeblood growing

[burnt summit]

Did we get any clarification on both mask makers in this game? I just never understood what the masks where about. Why is there another one, who uses those masks???

[obsidian quail]

what would be the conductors?

[uncut shell]

he wasn’t manually placing all the vines

he placed the first bit of it but it was all the lifeblood’s doing after that

[spark valve]

the weavers made the citadel to keep grand mother silk asleep. Eventually, they start fading, and the citadel caste we see now rises up and overthrows them, continuing to run the citadel

[quartz flicker]

what was the line before this one?

[spark valve]

conductors are the leaders of the citadel caste

[spark valve]

.

[sinful nimbus]

Not really? You would just think of it as two stories connected by a few things. Its a bit like playing HK for the first time, overwhelming storywise but you also get the wonder of exploring a brand new original world. In the middle of act 2 I lost all that feeling with Silksong, once I realized how similar the haunting is to the infection, and it gets even worse in Act 3

[barren valley]

oh I see I see

[craggy smelt]

yeah, but he and his assitant introduced it into the area

[safe barn]

Think the citadel caste’s use of silk in daily life is what led them to being haunted by GMS? I mean they seem to rely on silk a whole lot

[spark valve]

@quartz flicker

that's the full thing

[barren valley]

by fading do you mean they were just dying of old age or

and was lace created before the citadel?

[spark valve]

potentially, we know they have a hard time reproducing

[uncut shell]

I mean you also gotta remember this was supposed to be dlc to the first game

[spark valve]

must have been for gms to create her before being put to sleep, and caretaker says she's been around for a long time

[sinful nimbus]

Yes but Team Cherry also repeatedly advertised it as having a separate and unique story

[obsidian quail]

ohhh okay, so it seems the Weavers actually tried to get bugs to stop following the citadel

[barren valley]

gotcha gotcha, and I imagine GMS’s influence over the citadel caste didn’t help

[empty sierra]

i would be too overwhelmed honestly, i think a good balance of familiarity and novelty is important in sequels, we can just disagree on how much that is

[uncut shell]

I mean… it does…

[golden olive]

the void did lose the connotations it had from HK but i don't think it's bad writing for TC to use the void as a narrative tool to further SS's themes and place hornet into certain situations. i think the whole plot surrounding GMS hanging on so lace could live in the void help shows the dichotomy between her and TPK, with obsession vs neglect and all

[spark valve]

her influence of the citadel caste would have come later

[uncut shell]

it can have similarities and not be the same thing

[spark valve]

seems like they got wiped out pretty quickly and totally

[barren valley]

after they took over from the weavers?

[sinful nimbus]

There is no meaningful dichotomy to be had between GMS and TPK

[bright oyster]

yeah I was gonna attempt to make an evolutionary tree of hollow knight, with the void at the top, then the heart (darkness) and the radiance (light) below it, then the wyrms below them, alongside unn and white lady, then the weavers below them

if GMD is on the same level as PK and WL then the weavers would be on the same level as the the vessels, right?

[golden olive]

i think there's a LITTLE at least

[uncut shell]

the haunting is similar but the social construction of pharloom is completely different from hollownest

[sinful nimbus]

Judging PK off of his parenting skills is ludicrous, he was never intending to raise a child

[obsidian quail]

it was Weavers & Caste, then Caste, then GMS and Caste answer to her

[barren valley]

I mean it kinda seems like she’s always had influence, even when first put to sleep, but that it got stronger when they started messing with silk more

[empty sierra]

yeah makes sense

[spark valve]

well after, eventually they started fucking around with gms's silk in order to attain immortality for their 'pharloom eternal,' part of the attempt to try to banish death from the citadel

Cruel physician of Whiteward, responsible for operations and modifications on the Citadel's bugs.

Their procedures with Silk may have prolonged life within the Citadel, but they unknowingly gifted many minds to the monarch.

[barren valley]

mm I see

[spark valve]

it was GMS, then Weavers, then caste, then GMS taking over the caste and she's back in charge

[uncut shell]

wait huh are we still talking about the same thing

[sinful nimbus]

Not in Act 3 it doesn't. There is no real substance its just callbacks to HK

[spark valve]

the weavers and caste were probably never collaborating in the citadel

[barren valley]

ig I’m confused on how she takes over the minds of the pilgrims then since presumably most of them never went through the operations?

[spark valve]

well that's how the haunting started, but once the citadel has gone quiet she starts waking up, which may increase her ability to fuck around with pharloom

[obsidian quail]

i’m saying the timeline of Citadel leadership, so everything after the first GMS on ur list right?

[sinful nimbus]

It has a new coat of paint ig but at its core its very similar and whatever new things it introduces feel way less intentional and meaningful compared to HK (For example, if you removed the sidequest to gather 3 hearts, very little about the story would change.)

[uncut shell]

I disagree. I think pharloom is supposed to act as foil to hallownest, and the void takeover was the perfect way to show the catastrophe type events in these kingdoms happening in real time while showing why hornet wants to save this kingdom due to the failure of the last one

[rocky smelt]

from what i understand generations of those procedures happening has led to pretty much any bug born in pharloom having silk already inside them

[safe barn]

Grand reed description “theirs is a technique much reminiscent of Weavers. I wonder who taught them such use.” Think this holds any credence?

[spark valve]

maybe I'm misunderstanding but I thought your list had weavers and caste ruling together, that doesn't seem like what happened

[bright oyster]

as long as they dont add any more higher beings on the same level as the heart and the radiance, and also keep the void as the lone primordial force, I dont think its too contrived or convoluted

they can keep adding higher beings in the form of pale beings, and just explain that they were all wyrms at one point before taking a shape of their choosing

that way wyrms = pale being and there could be any number of them

[obsidian quail]

oh the Caste answered to Weavers then overthrew them

[spark valve]

they might've reverse engineered some stuff, or it's just because they're using a similar substance

[barren valley]

didn’t she have control originally before she was put to sleep though? was that control lost when the citadel was built?

[uncut shell]

the hearts thing is true though I think they did that because they had a bunch of bosses that didn’t really have a place in the world so they stitched it in to the third act

I would like to see several areas expanded a bit

[spark valve]

that previous control didn't necessarily look like the haunting though

[uncut shell]

then again there are definitely parts of hk that don’t really have much to them either

[obsidian quail]

my list was about the timeline of who was in charge of Citadel, u corrected my list but u put GMS first

[uncut shell]

like the hive or the coliseum of fools

[spark valve]

alright, yeah she was never in charge of the citadel itself, that's my bad

well not until the last stage

the first bugs to command the citadel were the weavers

[obsidian quail]

so i was saying just the citadel timeline is everything after the first GMS

[rocky smelt]

yeah pretty much she lost control but the citadel using her silk for experiments led to her regaining it eventually

[obsidian quail]

but if we just look at the leaders in general then GMS was first

[spark valve]

yeah

[obsidian quail]

ahhh gotcha

[sinful nimbus]

Its not really a foil, its a very similar situation, Hornet's conversation with Sherma illustrates that you are not really "saving" Pharloom, you have dismantled the Citadel so something new can take place. Which is a rehash of the themes in HK with the dreamers and whatnot.

[empty sierra]

act 3 definitely falls short from the previous two but i think its more about the gameplay elements rather than lore and worldbuilding, imo its just really padded and hard, even the late parts of act 2 honestly

[barren valley]

what lore do we have about what it was like pre-citadel?

[uncut shell]

nah but then you are genuinely saving it in the third act

[spark valve]

not that much really, it seems like the weavers felt stifled, and bilewater was probably a lot nicer

[obsidian quail]

the Weavers made the citadel quite extravagant

[barren valley]

act 3’s atmosphere made me feel uncomfy and sad :(

[sinful nimbus]

You save the region, sure. But the same is true in HK

[uncut shell]

hallownest is already dead reguardless of what ending you get

[spark valve]

verdania was lost after the citadel's construction, it's unclear when karak dried up though

[uncut shell]

pharloom isn’t yet

that’s the point

[obsidian quail]

oh SS act 3 is pure nostalgia bait but damn if i didn’t enjoy it

[barren valley]

so how much was GMS really in the wrong?

[sinful nimbus]

Pharloom as we know it is gone after you kill GMS and crumble the citadel. It was already on its way out before the game even begun

[golden olive]

true LMAO but i mean the general neglect of all the vessels, and GMS wasn't exactly a good parent either like even compared to TPK, she was obsessed with keeping lace alive and clearly wasn't successful in making her happy, even if she was unable to due to being asleep/sealed

maybe dichotomy isn't the right word there. i just thought it was interesting how some conflicts of each story happen because of neglect (all the vessels being dumped into the abyss) and "obsession" if its fair to call GMS obsessed. idk. i kinda agree that the void wasn't substantially meaningful but then again i cant see why TC would ever not include it in the sequel to HK.

[spark valve]

I mean the haunting isn't great mass mind control is pretty unethical I'd say

[burnt summit]

Is there an explicit reason why verdania was lost?. Or why karak dried up?

[empty sierra]

what would you make it do instead of saving pharloom? that is the mission from the start isnt it?

[obsidian quail]

i wonder why the Weavers constructed the citadel so differently from their usual forms of architecture

[empty sierra]

and in geneal the theme in both hk games

[spark valve]

not really though it's tied in some way to gms, the citadel, or both

[quartz flicker]

"...For her light... eternal... our song sustains..." this seems EXTREMELY important. I think this implies that the Weavers and Silk had a peaceful coexistence at one time.

[spark valve]

in verdania's case the citadel

[spark valve]

they did at one point, but that might be more about keeping her eternally asleep

[barren valley]

I mean I agree, but also that seemed her only method to potentially save herself

[spark valve]

or it could be when they were still younger

[barren valley]

after the weavers put her to sleep forever

[obsidian quail]

they did for awhile

[uncut shell]

bro there’s still two whole cities left

[sinful nimbus]

I would not make it about demolishing the entire system so something new can happen but rather about fixing the kingdom so it can live out the rest of its days.

With the Citadel being an inherently sinister group this maybe wouldn't be compatible with the fundamental concept of SS, but Its a difficult story to salvage

[obsidian quail]

but Weavers put her to bed for a bit because they desired freedom and seem to have some ideological misgivings with GMS

[spark valve]

sure but is saving yourself at that kind of cost a good thing? idk if I'd say so, either way you can sort of sympathize with it without necessarily saying it was the right decision on a moral level, we understand nuance here I should hope

[barren valley]

I love nuance

[quartz flicker]

Do we know why they decided to do this? I'm probably forgetting something

[spark valve]

something about breaking free of their naive foundation

[barren valley]

I’m not even seeing how the weavers were really mistreated

[obsidian quail]

yeah that’s what i said

[empty sierra]

reformed gms 🙏 😭

[obsidian quail]

we don’t know what GMS was doing pre sleep

[barren valley]

true

[obsidian quail]

that drove weavers to that

[barren valley]

and any history is probably biased anyways

[eternal osprey]

Phantom is the same thing that Lace is aren't they? the hunter's journal gave me that idea

[obsidian quail]

i wish we got more direct context

[spark valve]

Prepare, sisters. Weave hope anew. That we might break free this accursed web born of our naive foundation
We know GMS made Lace in a way that keeps her perpetually a child, she might not be best thing to have around as a developing culture

[eternal osprey]

both beings made from Silk

[empty sierra]

its a cool idea i do agree we need an ending that has a bit of a different theme, maybe dlc brings something like that

[sinful nimbus]

If I had to rewrite SS I'd probably remove GMS entirely but that's just because I like the idea of the conductors being the big bads more rather than an inherent issue with her concept

[quartz flicker]

given how absurdly advanced the Citadel is with metallurgy and clockwork automatons, I think that a group other than the Weavers had to be involved

[spark valve]

there's also the possibility that she began, like, exploiting weavers for silk in order to create and sustain lace, she certainly made Lace before they put her to sleep

[barren valley]

so she’s a little mentally ill 🙄

[obsidian quail]

dialogue like this seems to imply that GMS is oppressive

[spark valve]

twelfth architect says her craft is derived from the weavers', and we know the weavers were skilled in that stuff too

[barren valley]

sure but I think that would be mentioned more explicitly if it were the case

[spark valve]

I agree, which is why I'm just saying it's a possibility

[obsidian quail]

i also think that’s very likely because it seems like they felt betrayed, wasn’t there dialogue hinting at a feeling of betrayal?

[barren valley]

like weavers seemed pretty proud and willing to be loud about what made them upset

[barren valley]

fair fair

[obsidian quail]

seems like they felt like her tools rather than her divine creations after awhile

disenfranchised

[barren valley]

that’s real

[spark valve]

An Architect's work owes much to the art of the f-f-first children. They set expert standard for the tools and talents of Pharloom eternal
this is the architect talking about the weavers. The craft may have developed since the conductors took over, though

[quartz flicker]

I wonder if the earliest Architects were more heavily silk-based and less metallic.

[covert tusk]

I wonder if the automatons created in Pharloom would have fulfilled the requirements of being a “Hollow Knight” honestly, especially since there’s so many of them, it’d be kinda wild if the sneer was just the Pale King didn’t industrialize lmao

[spark valve]

we do see some weaver constructs, they're pretty metallic still

[safe barn]

Poor tramway has been forgotten to time 😔

[barren valley]

control freak with a complex about being a mother and having children ruling over an entire civilization what could go wrong?

[obsidian quail]

honestly the notion that she created Weavers but wanted to move on to fully Silk beings i think and the Weavers felt betrayed and like oppressed disposable tools

[quartz flicker]

The Architects may have become capable of self-advancement, leading to progressive advancement.

[obsidian quail]

i get behind that

[empty sierra]

yeah why tf did a vessel have to be a living thing couldnt his ass just make some device or a sealing spell or some shit

[spark valve]

these do run on silk though, it may be the case the citadel's architects had to pivot their designs away as sources of silk ran out

[empty sierra]

like seal that mf like they did gojo

[spark valve]

this seems to be the case, they have robots designing better robots after all

[quartz flicker]

These look kinda like they're built with shells

[sinful nimbus]

Well they couldn't focus the Radiance into themselves but theoretically its plausible if she was already in there she would not break out

[empty sierra]

"no mind to think" "no voice to scream" brother you are describing an INANIMATE OBJECT

[spark valve]

if the cogwork dancers are any indication I doubt it

[safe barn]

I was under the impression that sealing the radiance was a lost cause inherently since she can only be in creatures that dream and those that can dream have a will?

[sinful nimbus]

I mean tbh I just think all minds are connected to the dream realm on some level

[radiant vale]

i just realized but are all weavers pale creatures?

[barren valley]

yeah but surely the thing had to be capable of dreaming or something

[edgy stone]

The last sentinel as well

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah

[covert tusk]

Oh yeahhhhhhhh
Actually this begs the question for Lace, does silk provide different properties to fully metal beings? Cuz if not no wonder Lace has issues, while she technically is alive, she can’t experience things that define life, like taste or smell or like, death by age (something Hornet can relate to with the last one)

[barren valley]

I think the fact that they’re not is what they were specifically mad about

[empty sierra]

how do you dream but be hollow that sounds like a contradiction

[edgy stone]

So in hollow knight is entering the dream realm and dreaming different actually

Because I just wondered why wouldnt the pale king try to get infected and kill that bitch in his dreams

[radiant vale]

like so far we have directly only seen 1 pale weaver and thats the first sinner so i was wondering if all weavers = pale

[sinful nimbus]

You need void heart

[radiant vale]

but i guess not cuz hera doesnt look like a pale creature

[covert tusk]

It’s not that the vessels needed to dream, it’s that they can focus things, so unlike a machine, a hollow person could focus the radiance inwards
Like how only weavers can bind I think

[barren valley]

idk but I don’t think radiance is physical enough to just stuff inside a box

[safe barn]

Do people not remember that the pale king was wrong and that the radiance couldn’t be sealed indefinitely???

[obsidian quail]

do we know the First Sinner is pale? i can’t remember

[radiant vale]

well she could be sealed properly in the void

[silver spire]

ok so

[empty sierra]

he was dumb asf yea

[quartz flicker]

so why is Widow the only Weaver left alive and free

[radiant vale]

but not within a vessel

[silver spire]

im kind of confused on the lore of silksong

[barren valley]

well that’s only because the hollow knight wasn’t truly hollow, right?

but also he was stupid

[radiant vale]

shes a slave to Grandmother silk

[covert tusk]

Well the Pale King was wrong cuz the one time he was supposed to be a bad father he got feelings and the Pure Vessel did as well, granting it a mind

[spark valve]

she has pins in her spine impairing her silk generation, so she has no value as a captive and she's helping gms.

[covert tusk]

Theoretically, the plan COULD work, it’s just hiiiighly unlikely a fully hollow being could ever exist

[barren valley]

god what a dumb mf nepo baby literally inherited godhood and what did he do with it

[spark valve]

weavers are being captured for their silk, a weaver who can't produce silk has no reason to be captured

[covert tusk]

Enter Widow

[silver spire]

so here's what i ahve so far: pharloom's folly is a poem concerning grand mother silk, grand mother silk is the one responsible for the haunting, made lace, and weavers were the first inhabitants of Pharloom

[barren valley]

clearly you haven’t met savage beastfly

no soul in there I swear

[spark valve]

weavers weren't first, actually

[silver spire]

this is what i have so far based on my gameplay, and ive gotten out of act 2

[silver spire]

really?????? 12th architect says so in his dialogue

[radiant vale]

treating your "child" with love and you cant really expect it to not grow any back for you

[golden olive]

so was lace seriously just being kept alive to kill random pilgrims and sleep on flowers

[quartz flicker]

I think the Coral dudes may very well have been around before the Weavers

[radiant vale]

which was the PKs mistake

[spark valve]

that's like within the paradigm of the citadel

[silver spire]

12th architect states that the weavers were "pharloom's first children"

[covert tusk]

Oh no I’ve met that thing

I’ve also met the TRUELY soulless monsters of its rematch

[silver spire]

oh true, but thats like the civilized portion no?

[barren valley]

I don’t even believe he treated the hollow knight with real love, I don’t think he’s capable of it

[edgy stone]

Im assuming there were people already in pharloom but the weavers kinda started the first major civilization

[barren valley]

I’m the biggest pk hater

[golden olive]

tammo did u ever post the link for the document btw

[silver spire]

yea thats basically what i meant

[barren valley]

oh yeah I want the doc too

[radiant vale]

he was treated like daddy's favorite but yea thats why he wasnt truly hollow

[silver spire]

and widow says that hornet is the children of those who dare flee

[edgy stone]

I really wonder what the surface is supposed to represent

[spark valve]

Pharloom was not born of that monarch, Old One. Power existed in these lands even before she bound them beneath her. Seek the old hearts of our kingdom and the last successors to bear their strengt
the ants and karak civ were around beforehand

[barren valley]

yeah yeah, can’t help but feel something etc

[spark valve]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fXWZMaeHiBTY1D6P2cuO929M0iXIYTXdeMifmLQ71sA/edit?usp=sharing

[edgy stone]

Especially since its only accessible by the cradle

[barren valley]

omg thanks bestie

[golden olive]

YAYYY

[silver spire]

wait which npc dialogue si that

[spark valve]

snail shamans in act 3

[silver spire]

theres SNAIL SHAMANS?!??!?!

ok rip i got spoiled, i only just beat act 2 D:

[covert tusk]

THE PALE KING HAS FREE BENCHING AND LIVABLE AREAS, GLORY TO THE PALE DYNASTY

[silver spire]

im just going off of the info i have

[empty sierra]

come back after act 3 its rly cool

[quartz flicker]

Silk has a lot in common with the Pale King. It's pretty interesting.

[silver spire]

so widow also knows about the pale king

as indicated by her dialogue

[barren valley]

I would recommend being so careful with this channel until you know enough to not care about spoilers

[silver spire]

i mean, im still tryna figure out how to get into act 3

[empty sierra]

yeaah theres really cool stuff you havent seen and would be a shame to get spoiled

[radiant vale]

pharloom is run by stupid mosquitos who want you to pay rosaries just for resting

[silver spire]

so ig ill be careful

[radiant vale]

ANTI HOMELESS ARCHITECTURE IS BAD

[silver spire]

FR

[empty sierra]

do all quests on the boards and find all fleas

[edgy stone]

This guy doesn't know about the best boss in game lmao

||court of craws iz what im talking about obviously||

[silver spire]

.... do i really need to do all quests 😭

[barren valley]

me getting charged for dying on shift

[empty sierra]

they arent really hard or too many tbh

[silver spire]

according to my friend its only 90% ish

[spark valve]

death is a sin get back to scrubbing

[barren valley]

I thought it was just 25?

[quartz flicker]

i don't think all fleas are required. just enough to get them to move to the lake

[radiant vale]

not all but no one knows the exact conditions for it

[spark valve]

this also isn't required

[silver spire]

also anyone else notice the dies irae motif, it keeps popping up

[spark valve]

nobody knows what's required

[gentle cargo]

i saw somewhere that in lore ||the weavers are practically speaking all dead|| and when i fought widow it seems to make me ask if ||widow herself is a weaver?|| Like from the looks of it ||she can use silk like Hornet, and is spider-like in design||
||also she is literally insane||

[edgy stone]

Has the switch for the quest not been datamined??

[empty sierra]

idk thats what i know, we dont know exactly what the trigger for act 3 is

[golden olive]

widow is a weaver ya

[silver spire]

its in all the bell tolls, its in GMS theme, bell beast theme, etc.

[spark valve]

widow is a weaver but her silk is bound

[silver spire]

widow is a weaver

[empty sierra]

the what motiff??

[burnt summit]

I had done all quests and everything but was missing just this and didn't get the quest, did that and i inmediately got it lmao

[quartz flicker]

It's mentione that Widow had her Mask forcefully removed

[barren valley]

is widow a full weaver?

[gentle cargo]

what does that mean?

[spark valve]

same, but somebody else didn't move the fleas until act 3 so it can't be a hard requirement

[quartz flicker]

maybe weaver masks do something?

[edgy stone]

Skinned weavers lets go

[barren valley]

or do they make a distinction

[empty sierra]

she cant produce silk

[spark valve]

Her body seemed a Weaver's, but her mask had been forcibly removed, and** her own Silk was bound useless by heavy pins lodged through her spine. **

[barren valley]

cover up their silly faces

[empty sierra]

crippled basically

[edgy stone]

I do wonder why first sinner is so deformed compared to the rest of the weavers

[barren valley]

are they?

[empty sierra]

i didnt notice that

[barren valley]

they look pretty samey to me

[edgy stone]

They were created with the weird break in their mask

[barren valley]

oh hm

[edgy stone]

The top isnt round and is jagged like a cracked egg

[cobalt stump]

first of the first or what have you

[barren valley]

ouch

[cobalt stump]

Maybe we never saw the First Weavers

mayhaps the rounded mask came a little later

[edgy stone]

I do wonder if first sinner implies theyre the first weaver or if their deformity led to them to be the first to rebel

[barren valley]

seems a like counterproductive to GMS’s goals

[gentle cargo]

oh so from this widow is controlled by the same silk that reanimated basically most of the enemies?

[silver spire]

dies irae

[quartz flicker]

do we know what happened to the other weaver children that were brought in before Hornet?

[empty sierra]

what is that

[barren valley]

it seemed like they were the first weaver

[silver spire]

its a motif from a gregorian chant in the early 1000s

[spark valve]

she doesn't seem to be controlled, seems to be serving willingly

[silver spire]

theres a LOT of religious imagery in this game

[spark valve]

no but Probably Nothing Good

[barren valley]

but idk what the sin actually is

[edgy stone]

They were either killed by lace or fully consumed

[spark valve]

apostasy

[cobalt stump]

It seemed a not GMS thing but a Whiteward thing

[silver spire]

dies irae motif is used in a lot of cinematic scores, etc.

[gentle cargo]

huh, from how she acts tho she looks like she has gone insane

[quartz flicker]

team cherry knows and they are LAUGHING at us

[spark valve]

Penitent, First of the First. Guilty of the sin of apostasy. Penance by constriction. Absolution denied

[edgy stone]

They would probably be milked dry of silk that presumably they wouldnt make a whole lot of

[barren valley]

so before she took over and then she found out and had a smh moment surely

[cobalt stump]

I thought the sin was heresy

[barren valley]

very specific

[spark valve]

well lace says that letting hornet live is denying her her silk, so... at the very least it's not implied they're alive

[cobalt stump]

Tbh fuck if I know HAHA, I still am not sure what GMS is. maybe it’s bc I haven’t gotten to act 3 yet

[barren valley]

oh?

[quartz flicker]

it's something to do with being an apostate

[empty sierra]

well the key that unlocks her room is the key of apostate so

[spark valve]

Letting you live was my rebellion, spider. I've denied my mother your silken strength. I've won.

[edgy stone]

Apostasy and heresey are similar enoufh

[empty sierra]

idk what apostasy even means

[cobalt stump]

The lock leading to her room is the heretic lock (within the apostate lock), and the achievement you get for killing her is The Heretic

[barren valley]

oh I thought you meant like denying herself the silk, I remember that

[empty sierra]

oh, i forgot

[safe barn]

I mean who locked her up then was it the weavers?

[barren valley]

lace is so silly but it’s not her fault

[cobalt stump]

that’s okay I literally just did it like 20 minutes ago, or else I too would’ve forgotten

[spark valve]

probably

[barren valley]

wait why

[cobalt stump]

I assume they died? Weren’t strong enough, didn’t have enough Weaver blood. There’s a room full of cages in the topmost map that has descriptions of each child

I sorta thought Hornet’s strong weaver blood was supposed to make her a golden child of sorts

[spark valve]

wouldn't make a ton of sense for it to be anyone else

[quartz flicker]

First Sinner is really strong so other Weavers probably were needed to subdue her

[barren valley]

but I’m just confused on the motivation

[edgy stone]

I think we can also infer from the silk spell we get from her that she was just inherently dangerous

[cobalt stump]

Sin

I mean yes but also it’s just about sin

She did something “wrong” so she goes to sinner jail

[edgy stone]

Its a beserk skill that hits randomly and indiscriminately

[spark valve]

well she committed a crime against gms that may have just been before the weavers betrayed her

[cobalt stump]

wait I took a screenshot of what it said her sin was

[cobalt stump]

tbh I assumed that was bc of how fucking insane she went being locked up

[barren valley]

but none of the other weavers liked GMS 😭

[spark valve]

"She called us her children, she called us divine, she lied"

[safe barn]

I mean she’s in the slab a place owned by the citadel

[spark valve]

depends on when she got locked up

[barren valley]

oh so maybe she found out first?

[spark valve]

the slab is affiliated with it but may have predated the current use of the citadel

[barren valley]

before the other weavers knew

and they wanted to not believe or something?

[quartz flicker]

i guess Silk falsely claimed to have made the Weavers?

[muted lantern]

Saw someone on Tumblr saying silksong is misogynistic because hornet gets her cloak stolen in the slab

[cobalt stump]

she was the first to stop believing, that’s what we know at the very least

[barren valley]

I mean yeah, with her weird complex and all

[spark valve]

it's also possible that they locked her up after sending grand mother silk to sleep, the fact that they betrayed her doesn't actually mean they stopped worshipping her entirely, it's weird but... seems to be the case

[barren valley]

or more likely that they were directly her children

[spark valve]

I think that makes less sense than her being locked up before though

[edgy stone]

No, its more talking about how first sinner doesnt see herself as gms actual child and is not divine. She found out the truth that their creation is a mockery

Or at least thats what makes sense to me

[barren valley]

idk, none of these really make sense to me yet, I’ll think on it

[quartz flicker]

i dunno the weavers are pretty sick

[muted lantern]

How do you think hornet will help lace survive post true ending?

[quartz flicker]

they can do some crazy stuff

[cobalt stump]

I’m gonna need a timeline but also I should like

[edgy stone]

Like the line she called us her children, and she lied means moreso that she didnt actually consider them her children

[covert tusk]

I mean if I was just like, a cockroach and suddenly I’m bipedal, I have to wear clothes, speak language and interact with people, yeah I’d be pretty upset too

[spark valve]

it would just be a matter of providing enough silk

[cobalt stump]

Play act 3 first

[edgy stone]

They were more tools than anything else for gms

[spark valve]

also very possible

[muted lantern]

Does GMS have any needolin lin s, I couldn't get any

[barren valley]

interesting interpretation

[cobalt stump]

But does that mean then that she didn’t make them? It depends on what the lie is. You could be right, but so could other things

[edgy stone]

I do think lace mightve taken some silk when gms sacrificed herseld

[cobalt stump]

I’m very intrigued and confused

[barren valley]

I mean she did sortaa make them

in most ways that count imo

but they weren’t actual descendants of the divine

[barren beacon]

So hornet's needle was made by the hive, right?

[barren valley]

and also not immortal

[edgy stone]

She made weavers weavers from bugs, but its moreso the idea thay she lied about her feelings towards the weavers

[empty sierra]

i wish they showed the aftermath of the true ending tho, they just show hornet and lace in abyss and end it 😭

[gentle cargo]

also is it me or during the widow fight she keeps yelling something akin to "murderer"

[edgy stone]

Ther was never a mother and daughter connection between them as silk never saw them more as things despite her words

[barren valley]

idk if that’s fully explicit but it’s an interesting interpretation

[covert tusk]

Can I just say the first sinner is so cool but so fucking funny? First thing she does upon being released is make herself a cute little dress, the immediately starts trying to rip Hornet apart

Now what’s that say about Widow’s pantsless self

[muted lantern]

What will pharlooms government look like after true ending, with no ruler do you think they will form back into a religious cult? Or is their faith shaken enough by recent events, does sherma985 become eternal God king of pharloom?

[safe barn]

It’s pretty obvious the citadel wanted her locked up since nearly the entirety of her cell is made up of their architecture

[quartz flicker]

Weavers seem different in some ways from regular bugs (they are arachnids, after all)

[edgy stone]

I think this probably stems from laces or phantoms creation

[cobalt stump]

I KNOW her attacks are really similar to the study dudes

[spark valve]

no real way to know but the only one in something resembling a position of authority is sherma even if that's pretty mild

[cobalt stump]

Just blindly waving her shit around

[muted lantern]

Shermas song becomes national anthem

[barren valley]

sherma singing at a piece of paper waiting for it to turn into legislation

[edgy stone]

Both were made by silk and silk eventually started to become more and more authoritative over the weavers for their silk to help keep lace and phantom alive

[muted lantern]

Do you think garmond would survive if we didn't fight him but got the true ending instead?

[spark valve]

maybe

[edgy stone]

So silk abandons the weavers for the 2 daughters of her own design

[covert tusk]

The way they have the same boss them really intrigued me, the voices being the same should but honestly I think all weavers just naturally sound deranged. The music tho, the track specifically named after Widow, being shared with First Sinner
While it could be a direct connection, it feels much more symbolic in my eyes for some reason idk

[barren valley]

interesting thought

[edgy stone]

Abandons might be thr wrong word but starts to abuse

[quartz flicker]

this suggests that Lace is old as shit

[spark valve]

she is

[barren valley]

I wonder if the knight could’ve solved all this

[muted lantern]

Lace is worlds oldest child

[edgy stone]

If silks silk is made from soul presumably

[spark valve]

sure it could have rolled up and killed grand mother silk

[safe barn]

Ending might be showing that he is currently shade lord

[edgy stone]

Kinda just sucks it out of silk

[muted lantern]

They

[covert tusk]

I feel like Void infection is much less cureable than say, Haunting or The Infection
Like Void is everywhere at the bottom of the world, and Void is a hollowing substance, it basically does what Enard did to Michael in fnaf

[safe barn]

Sorry didn’t realise

[barren valley]

so sad that hornet didn’t know they were alive

[covert tusk]

So like, TL;DR, nah man I feel like Garmond is a goner 💔

[barren valley]

could’ve avoided so many issues

[edgy stone]

But yeah I feel like the great divide between weavers and silk was probably a byproduct of phantom and laces creation

[spark valve]

she might? it's definitely an inference she could plausibly draw from information she had but like it's not like she could just call for it

[muted lantern]

All good, canonically all vessels are genderless, hence hornet being the gendered child, because she is unique out of pks kids

[edgy stone]

2 creatures that could only live off of the suffering of the weavers

[safe barn]

No sorry I meant that I didn’t mean to but he in the first place lmao

[golden olive]

do we have any estimate on the time passed between hk and hornet's capture?

[edgy stone]

It also might be the divine thing in first sinners dialouge

[empty sierra]

could be any amount of time tbh i dont think it matters

[muted lantern]

Do you think lace would hate hornet for killing phantom, or would she understand phantom wanted to die in battle

[craggy smelt]

a trillion years

[barren valley]

idk

[edgy stone]

The weavers were never truly divine so once silk made 2 divine children they lost their daughter privileges with silk

[quartz flicker]

time is insanely hard to pin down in this universe

[golden olive]

silksillion years 😱

[craggy smelt]

the latter I think - and this might be why those flies help guide you through the Mist

[edgy stone]

Im calling silk and phantom divine because theyre 2 beings made purely out of soul silk

[muted lantern]

Are all weavers female? Was herrah a weaver?

[barren valley]

silk just a little crazy honestly

[covert tusk]

Silk realizing it’s much easier to control beings made entirely from her rather than bugs granted her powers in her image kind of

[edgy stone]

Also the only creatures to presumably be made from scratch

[spark valve]

yes and yes

[edgy stone]

As even the moths werent just materialized right

[spark valve]

she can't control them but that's also not why she made lace and phantom

[muted lantern]

Herrah is very different looking from most weavers, I wonder why

[plucky granite]

is it generally understood that dream no more is the 100% canon ending of hollow knight now? considering silksongs true ending

[edgy stone]

I feel like they were evolved from the glowing moths we see the seer turn into

[barren valley]

idek if it’s that because it did seem like she did truly love lace

[empty sierra]

look at my king dawg im so cooked 💔 😭

[barren valley]

just you know

[spark valve]

it's ambiguous between dream no more and embrace the void

[muted lantern]

Why does a glowing moth help free hornet at the start? Is that phantoms influence?

[spark valve]

probably Laace

[craggy smelt]

moths are described as born from a light - it's presumed they were made out of Rad's dreams
similar to how Unn dreamt the plants and mosskin into Greenpath

[barren valley]

in her own problematic way

[muted lantern]

Are the moths connected to lace?

[safe barn]

The knight isn’t shown in the ending but we do see a flash of the shade lord so possibly both dream no more and godseeker

[muted lantern]

Oh I guess she does conduct them

[craggy smelt]

Lace didn't wanted Hornet to reach the citadel, she saw Hornet as a replacement daughter
she was probably hoping Hornet would die after breaking out

[quartz flicker]

implied to be Lace imo

[barren valley]

which ones?

[plucky granite]

oh is that not the knight at the end or smth

[edgy stone]

Those moths also lead us to help kill phantom

[safe barn]

No it’s HK

[edgy stone]

Did lace have us kill phantom?

[spark valve]

phantom also kind of wants to die

[plucky granite]

oh interesting

[muted lantern]

Possible, if she knew phantom wanted a death in battle

[quartz flicker]

Lace is encountered on the exact bridge that Hornet fell off of, and is shown controlling the little moth things

[barren valley]

wait omg is it?

I need to watch it again

[golden olive]

yup

[craggy smelt]

otherwise, there's no explanation for why those same flies help us

[empty sierra]

lace is never seen on that bridge wdym

[muted lantern]

Phantom really committed suicide by lesbian

[spark valve]

it is not

it's the knight

[edgy stone]

Feel like phantom should've had more to them

The knight is not the hollow knight

[golden olive]

mb i thought that said the knight not the HK

[edgy stone]

The hollow knight is the big motherfucker and the knight is the small cute guy

The knight never gets named outside of crude remarks though so its just a placeholder name

[muted lantern]

Wait wait, the horns on the knight in true ending did look suspiciously hk like? Does this mean HK is lord of shades?

[edgy stone]

Yeah but we dont

[empty sierra]

idk why nobody calls him little ghost

[quartz flicker]

As Hornet calls them, "Little Ghost" recognized her in the Void sea and comes to her aid

[empty sierra]

its a cool and unique name

[spark valve]

no it means the horns look a bit different in that form

[edgy stone]

Canonically we kill the radiance and the knight never inherents the title of the hollow knight

[spark valve]

they look that way in the first game too

[muted lantern]

It's been a while since dnm is that how they looked there

[spark valve]

yes

[safe barn]

Is this not HK horns?

[golden olive]

naw those aren't also the hk is way larger in shade form

[spark valve]

this is dream no more

[edgy stone]

Hollow knight is 8 feet tall

[quartz flicker]

this is Little Ghost

[elfin berry]

i believe i have figured it out thanks to replaying and listening to the lady that gives you the cloaks dialogue. She implys that weaving is a skill, not just something you can do birth. I believe that likely means that hornet being half spider/half pale being means she was able to learn to weave. she already produces silk as a spider, but the combination of "silk and soul" is what weaving is. So being taught that skill makes her a weaver by trade, not by birth. Its unclear though if any spider could be tought with help from a weaver or if its because shes half pale being.

[muted lantern]

Also also, is dnm canon? Or is etv canon? I assumed it's dnm but the knight becomes Lord of shades over time

[spark valve]

she is stated to be a weaver by birth

[covert tusk]

I feel like her minimal role could have been fine if she wasn’t lace’s sister, like that’s INSANE, especially since she’s the guardian of the only other entrance to the citadel
(Which side note, it being named Sinner’s Road cuz it leads you to the citadel without faceing Judgement is so cool)

[spark valve]

it is ambiguous between both

[raven cove]

No she is a weaver by birth, in half part

[empty sierra]

the knight and the hollow knight in their void forms

[raven cove]

Herrah was retconned into a weaver

[elfin berry]

source

[muted lantern]

So headcanon wise hollow could be alive, considering we don't see them among the shades

[safe barn]

Ahhh ship sorry about that

[barren valley]

it looks pretty similar to the knight’s imo

[golden olive]

https://tenor.com/view/pure-vessel-gif-hollow-knight-pure-vessel-edit-gif-gif-23577243

[spark valve]

in one of the ambiguous options it would be alive yes

[edgy stone]

Tammo I saw you had the idea that herrah weirdly mutated into the form we see now due to having horney

It would make sense but idk feel like its such a drastic change

[raven cove]

Choral Commandment calls her a weaver, several NPCs call her a weaver, in the red memory she’s described as a weaver, it is all over the game

[spark valve]

I floated it as a possibility but it's not like substantiated

[edgy stone]

Yeah theres really nothing for it unfortunately, the worst retcon of them all imo

[elfin berry]

the weavers are something special. they were created by GMS with these abilities. They're not higher beings or anything but they absolutely have skills and knowlage other spiders lack.

[plucky granite]

i think the final cutscene is the knight and not HK, while the horns match hk in base form they match the knight at the end of dream no more

[edgy stone]

I kinda like the idea herrah is a beast possibly turned weaver like an eva situation

[covert tusk]

The Pale Pipe goes crazy I suppose

[muted lantern]

Why does herrah look so different to the weavers, she's a lot uhh bigger? No sphere mask obvs but her body is way thicker than weavers we see, is she just swole as fuck and/or from devouring her enemies?

[tawdry flare]

it is definitely TK

[tawdry flare]

Can I unread this

[empty sierra]

also i just noticed frame by frame HE HAS TWO MASKS!!!

[barren valley]

she’s just like that

[elfin berry]

i really dont think this is the case

[covert tusk]

Wait Herrah’s a weaver now?

[spark valve]

probably not intended

[raven cove]

Yes

[tawdry flare]

i love cutscene objects and game objects overlapping

[raven cove]

No

[empty sierra]

ya im joking lmao

[edgy stone]

Im going with the idea herrah is a weaver transformed into one by other weavers and is not a direct daughter of silk. Not gonna be cannon or anything but fuck it I like the idea

[muted lantern]

Apparently, it makes some sense, not sure if it's a retcon, her mask always had the same slits

[raven cove]

In HK she was specifically NOT a Weaver, SS retconned that

[plucky granite]

another thing, is first sinner a past version of widow in her prime?

[raven cove]

No

[covert tusk]

Huh, coulda swore she was just a really badass spider lmao, guess I’m slow

[muted lantern]

When was that said

[edgy stone]

Since the weavers were messing with creating life I can see them recreate their birth by forcing it upon another common bug

[empty sierra]

they both exist physically in the real world

[edgy stone]

And thats how herrah became a weaver

[plucky granite]

oh first sinner is real world

[spark valve]

it's not stated that she wasn't a weaver but she was inconsistent with how weavers looked and shit

[plucky granite]

i did not know that ngl i didnt pay enough attention

[tawdry flare]

First Sinner would murder Widow I think

[covert tusk]

Nah, First Sinner is just built differently

[raven cove]

In HK she is described as being a common beast, Weavers are not common beasts. She also looks nothing like them

[elfin berry]

she is never directly stated to be a weaver. please show some diolague or something that shows she is

[edgy stone]

She was described as a common beast no?

[muted lantern]

If weavers are all female herrah could be a half weaver

[plucky granite]

first sinner is basically widow if she didnt have the things stopping her silk

[raven cove]

She was

[edgy stone]

Directly implying she is of non important blood like the weavers

[muted lantern]

Because they can't reproduce without another species

[empty sierra]

wait herrah THE BEAST 👀

[spark valve]

yes which would seem to imply not weaver but is not quite explicit

[covert tusk]

Fake sinners when a real heretic walks in

[empty sierra]

not herrah THE WEAVER