Tridention Adjustment

[stark perch]

This could be a difference between native speakers and non native, but you've shown you understand, others shown they understand, so... ¯⁠\⁠\_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

I just feel like this is pretty rare. Even my most impactful knights that I've used are like... 3 kills max. It's difficult to get 4+ kills and tbh, have those kills actually matter vs a player who even half knows what's going on, even if the opponent doesn't play around the knight

If the opponent does play around the knight... Good luck getting long lines

[mystic cave]

👆

[stark perch]

I would instead argue that knights can be good at killing specific units deep into enemy territory, but my argument is just I don't think it comes up often enough to be better than ranged persist

Like, the quality of the chains is usually better with ranged persist

[haughty ravine]

Dang, we really can't get a good time for both ;-;. Don't worry man btw

Fair enuff

It'll be for another day

[pearl ivy]

Maybe wording wasn't great but generally I agree that ranged persist in much better than meele persist

Meele can be much more devestating but only if you have a very rare scenario where you know opponents vision is lacking

Or if he just missplayed

Ranged is a lot more consistent

[tender nimbus]

To me it sounds like a good solution is the previously suggested max 2 attacks because it is still valuable, but it would also greatly reduce the problem of how difficult it is to position around tridentions. Strictly speaking.

[stark perch]

I mean, maybe, but even just being able to consistently get 2 attacks every turn is still really, really strong and I think you're potentially underrating it

Like, it's not just "ranged persist chains more often", it's also the quality of your chains are usually better *because* it's harder to play around

And the tridention itself isn't risking nearly as much by just being a generic 3 attack unit

Like, even without persist, tridentions wouldn't be a bad unit, just kinda mid

[toxic swan]

An aquarion archer with +1 atk and movement

[quick temple]

Guess not

[lofty wasp]

A scout with +1 atk and -1 movement

But yeah, without persist I would buy them if I had the tech, but I would never go all the way to spearing in order to get them

[toxic swan]

Why not take away all their abilities, keep their stats the same,... and then give them independent. That way no one would ever spam them

Fool proof plan...

you are all very much welcome

👍 👍

[stark perch]

I mean, that's the eternal problem, imo. I don't think there's anything that makes Spearing make sense that isn't too strong. Spearing is just such an awful tech to get

In this sense, I do kinda just rather when they had escape tbh. Sure it snowballed in the long term, but the problem with persist is how it immediately starts taking over with only 1 or 2

Which kinda goes similarly for puffers. They're kinda worth it on a generic tier 3, but so unnecessary that you can't really justify it, and naturally more vulnerable on sea than the alternatives

[haughty ravine]

The issue of "Free spirit Is garbage" strikes again

[dark nest]

so many filler techs

/ outright useless

[pearl sandal]

So, is the persist tridention more broken than the old escape one?

[inland acorn]

I never saw someone say they are stronger but they definitely provide a lot of value

Feels like buying both archers and knights in one tech

[haughty ravine]

I know I never played the beta or anything but with my experience with just rushing with tridentions against AI and seeing how the persist ability works on them due to videos covering the beta but I think it makes people at least put more thought into positioning, making it less broken since you could escape if you got into a bad position on the old one

(Yes I'm yapping I know qwq)

[austere fossil]

Congrats The Dragon Spammer. Your recent activity just advanced you to level 8!

[radiant surge]

I think it is fine as it is, I just think archers need a bit of differentiation because the forest branches are really non-incentivized to pick

but this is another subject

[inland acorn]

Archers still are good for them

That only tells you how strong tridentions end up being

[pastel lava]

With how sharks and yellies are right now, tridents are just fine

They are very strong, and I think they should be. But they can only really be used with the help of amphibians or yellies. That's why I really hope yellies get more of a defense buff so they can work together better

[pastel lava]

Wich brings back harpooners lol

[mint burrow]

Maybe remove both persist and escape for better stats? For example 15 hp 3 movement 3.5atk etc

[austere fossil]

Congrats efe secer. Your recent activity just advanced you to level 2!

[radiant surge]

just makes them a better archer, not good imo

[haughty ravine]

Its good.

Laat thing Tridention misses is getting a design reference that resembles the perished Navalon

[azure cosmos]

Giving tridentions 2.5 attack was a terrible idea. No disrespect they were fine as they were.

[pastel lava]

The whole point of this thread was to make them 2.5

[stark perch]

No, the point was to see and provide feedback if there was a good solution towards adjusting tridentions

[pastel lava]

And does 2.5 fit into that?

[stark perch]

I mean, does it? Do you think it was a good enough change?

[north hazel]

I don’t find 2.5 very fun or justifiable without using Jellies to soften enemies up before moving the Tridentions in—which requires two T3 techs.
Eh.

[pastel lava]

So now they are a solely large map tribe

Essentially right?

Also 15 hp would be nice if they have less damage maybe?

[azure cosmos]

Bro what are you even talking about

[lofty wasp]

The 3 atk version was too strong for sure. I haven't seen any Aquarion lose after they managed to get tridentions (except for a few who were already at a 2-7 city disadvantage or a mirror match)

[pastel lava]

To nerf them

[north hazel]

This could be a decent offset to the lowered attack. That, or slightly improved defense.

[floral snow]

I like the Trident changes. But I also like them before with escape. Persist allows for more complex strategies imo, and 2.5 attack is fine.

[pastel lava]

They essentially clean up. By themselves though they are not great

[pearl sandal]

I find that the 2.5 tridention often manage to make 2 attack, killing a damaged unit and heavily damaging another, and that is very useful but still not one shotting all scout ships

[pastel lava]

That should be what they are: cleanup for yellies and amphibians

But I think they are a bit too squishy though

[inland acorn]

You can keep them away from rammers either way

[pastel lava]

Yeah, probably won't be too hard to get them to vetern

Veteran

[torn mica]

Why not give them a "multi-hit" ability instead of persist then? With that they can simply attack twice.

They'll be able to take out a single scout ship this way, or instead take out a damaged unit, and heavily damage another.

[spare gust]

Or they could use my "Pierce" ability idea

[haughty ravine]

It was hard to understand though

And honestly not even great...

[mellow sonnet]

I would prefer if they got an ability that allows them to attack two units in the same turn, regardless of if it results in a kill, and also Persist.

[azure cosmos]

It's not the rammers that are the issue it's the scouts hip that's dangerous to the tridentions

[inland acorn]

But then 2 def wouldnt help

They still get two shot

[spare gust]

That's exactly what the Pierce ability does

[spare gust]

Not really good at explaining

[torn mica]

"And also persist"? How would that work? If the first hit kills, and the second hit doesn't, would persist still activate? (I assume if the first hit doesn't kill, but the second does, persist will still activate). (Not criticizing; just going for understanding)

Or is it like "Can attack twice, and for each kill, it gets another attack"?

[mellow sonnet]

Can attack twice, no matter if it kills or not, and has unlimited other attacks from killing a unit

[torn mica]

So if it does:
First-hit: kills unit A.
Second-hit: Doesn't kill unit B.
Does it get to do a third hit?

[mellow sonnet]

Yes

[torn mica]

If it does:
First-hit: Kills unit A.
Second-hit: Kills unit C.
Third-hit: Doesn't kill unit B.
Does it get to do a fourth hit?

[mellow sonnet]

Yes

It could do another hit as long as it kills its victim, thanks to persist

The question is: if it kills a unit on its fourth hit, could it attack a unit again without killing?

A unit with persist could do that currently

I think the modified tridention would not be able to attack again on its fourth hit in that case, because its ability means it is guaranteed two hits

One before or between the kills, and one would just be the hit that a normal Persist unit can make after killing

[torn mica]

Sorry, a bit confused. You said "Yes [it gets to do a fourth hit]", but later said "I think the modified tridention would not be able to attack again on its fourth hit in that case". Does it not get the fourth hit?

If I'm understanding correctly, it gets two hits, and each kill gives it an extra hit. Is this correct?

[pastel lava]

I feel this may be a bit strange

[torn mica]

I'm ok with it. Just wanna make sure Aetholis and I are thinking about the same thing. Or to even just understand Aetholis.

If it'll have 2.5 atk, I think it wont be too OP? It can't one-shot anything that has a max health of 10 or more (unless def is 0), but the 2-hit will help it, and give it an extra free hit.

[pastel lava]

No

[torn mica]

It'll work well to clean up catapults and weak stuff like hexapods, like a knight should, but can now also at least kill a warrior single handedly, and get one extra free hit.

It also can't sweep scout ships either at 2.5 atk. Seems well nerfed, but still capable of doing something?

The synergy with spamming them grows only linearly, so that's good too? With all units at full health:
1 tri can: kill 1 scout, damage 1 scout
2 tri can: kill 3 scout, damage 1 scout
3 tri can: kill 5 scout, damage 1 scout
And so on. At 10hp the tris should also be easy to kill as well with just a single rammer or swordsman.

(Assuming my understanding of " it gets two hits, and each kill gives it an extra hit" is correct).

[mellow sonnet]

I meant fifth; apologies for all the confusion

[mellow sonnet]

Would it be more intuitive for players getting used to this change to just give tridentions an ability that allows them 1 extra hit after they would have consumed their turn?

[torn mica]

Something like having [Persist] and [Extra-hit] rather than [Persist + Extra-hit]?

Hm, maybe that is indeed more intuitive, since the players already know what persist is. Though, I worry that people might think the persist only applies to the first two hits (and that any hit after that, that doesn't kill, will end the turn).

[lofty wasp]

Extra attack and persist sounds like it would be way too confusing for new players. I can almost guarantee it will never happen

Straight up extra attack is definitely an option though

[torn mica]

How would it be worded?
[Persist] - (whatever it already is, I guess)
[Extra-hit] - ?
[Persist + Extra-hit] - Can attack twice. Can attack once more, for each kill.

[haughty ravine]

I'd be down to have double attack tridentions

With only 2 atk

[torn mica]

Why only 2? They wont be able to clear all the catapults with that.

(I stress that a lot due to my own personal bias of knights taking out catapults. It's not like there's a necessity for it.)

[lofty wasp]

Because you have to keep in mind that it might attack the same enemy twice, and you don't want to give them massive single target damage

[mighty needle]

The outcome of the fight is:

Attacker: startHP ➔ endHP (enemyHP)

Boosted Archer: 10 ➔ 10 (10)
Boosted Archer: 10 ➔ 10 (4)

**Defender**:

15 ➔ 4

The outcome of the fight is:

Attacker: startHP ➔ endHP (enemyHP)

Catapult: 10 ➔ 10 (5)

**Defender**:

15 ➔ 5

[lofty wasp]

A 2.5 attack tridention that can attack twice would be able to deal more single target damage against a defender than a catapult would

Not saying that would necessarily be bad, but it certainly is a lot of damage

[haughty ravine]

Too much, imo

2 could potentially alr be excessive

[torn mica]

I think the biggest concern with that amount of damage, is that tris might be too good at taking out giants then? You'll only need four of them if they are slightly better than catapults. That said, doesn't Cymanti's knight have equal to catapult damage and the same reach as a tri (but twice the health)? Tri is only slighty stronger than either (catapult and doomux) with the two-hits, but easy to kill. This keeps it within reason, no?

There's also the over-lap with puffers, but puffers can do it from a safer distance, and can wet the land. Maybe giving more specialization to the puffer would reduce the overlap?

Oh, but doombuggies do cost more 🤔

Maybe raise tris to 10 stars as well?

[tender nimbus]

the problem I see with having lower damage but two attacks is that when attacking a ranged unit, its second attack will be even less because of retaliation

but then its also hard to balance against melee units

[torn mica]

At 2 attack, it also can't take out a 15 hp scout.

[pastel lava]

What, like to dinner?

As they are right now are people happy.

?*

[tender nimbus]

the good thing about only two attacks is that it gets rid of the large area of denial that tridentions can impose, however it does run a risk of making them benefit from spamming

[torn mica]

If the scout retaliates, it'll die, but it'll also leave the tri with only half its health left.

[tender nimbus]

I am, I'm just thinking of other ways they could be changed

[pastel lava]

I see

[junior coyote]

I think that’s the main issue with double attacking in general. It’s almost always going to be optimal to use it like a psuedo catapult

hence why exida should have a double attack

[unborn river]

exida with double attack: its finally usuable (joke)

[stark perch]

It's a good thing you made sure to say that's a joke. Otherwise, you would've fully summoned me

[unborn river]

exida would be so cool if poison was like

cool

[stark perch]

If only poison was 50% instead of 70%

[pearl sandal]

mostly because I like to stay away from adding new abilities that are similar to existing ones, makes the game confusing

[inland acorn]

I could imagine a version of polytopia where knights and tridentions could only chain through 5 units
I wonder how would it work out

[torn mica]

That just sounds like a nerf to them.

[tender nimbus]

Of course it is, how could it not?

[radiant surge]

now that I have access to beta, I can add my grain of salt

tridention feel weak ngl

you cant oneshot a rider/knight even if they have no defense bonus

a veteran tridention (15hp) + aquatism defense bonus get oneshot by a doomux...

[torn mica]

I think I'd rather tridents have 3atk and no persist (and still no escape) than 2.5 atk and persist. Or maybe even 3.5 attack.

[radiant surge]

what was the inital tridention damage (before rework) ? 3 ?

[torn mica]

Yes, 3.

[radiant surge]

uhhh ok so this wont return I guess

but ye 2.5 damage feel just so bad rn

atleast reduce their cost would be nice imo, maybe 6 stars instead of 8

[torn mica]

Doesn't sound bad. They're pretty much boosted archers after all.

[radiant surge]

ngl, I currently have no incentive in going for chivalry tree right now, it brings nothing interesting

[torn mica]

I would use it to reach the back line of enemy catapults and wipe them out. Though, I need the path to be flooded first...

[radiant surge]

well even that, you cant kill a catapult with 1 defense bonus

[torn mica]

Catapults have no defense.

[radiant surge]

but still can be protected by forests

and mountains

[torn mica]

The defense is zero. I don't think it'll help?
Hm. How does one use the calculator here? Idk how to test it with the discord bot.

It still kills it.

[radiant surge]

cymanti exida have more base def than catapults ?

[austere fossil]

Congrats LOOtam. Your recent activity just advanced you to level 12!

[radiant surge]

cuz I definitely not kill a protected exida

[torn mica]

They do. Idk why lol.

[radiant surge]

ye ok thats another thing to remove from cymanti xDDD

[torn mica]

Yeah, those the tris wont be able to sweep against. Idk why Cymanti of all tribes get a defense having catapult. Plus it gets to move 2 and creep.

(I can understand creep though)

[radiant surge]

yea creep makes sense, not the def

ok then my bad, you can swipe off catapults

[mint burrow]

Cymanti catapult moves like hexapod lol

[radiant surge]

dont they have 1 less movement ?

[torn mica]

Nope. 2.

[radiant surge]

kk

[inland acorn]

Exidas have the extra perks mostly because they cant one shot things like catapults

[torn mica]

Would the -1 atk be enough exchange for the poison splash?

[inland acorn]

From how cymanti plays it seems so
Exidas still arent a common unit you see

It's a defensive unit on a tribe that wants agression

[torn mica]

No, they've attacked my giants a number of times lol. I see them used in the back.

[radiant surge]

maybe but cymanti damage doesnt come from exida anyway, doomux and centipede are the ones dealing massive damage

exida are support units for spreading poison/algae/fungi

[inland acorn]

Yea giant rushes are the thing exidas are made for

[inland acorn]

Yea mostly that

[radiant surge]

anyway I fear we're getting a bit offtopic here

[inland acorn]

Tridentions are still probably more valuable than knights tbh

[torn mica]

The main use I can see for tris now are cleaning up weak things like catapults or hexapods (though Jellies can stop hexapods) and attacking on land from a safe spot in the water.

[radiant surge]

really ? when I see the massive chains some people can get with knights on reddit I doubt it ^^'

[torn mica]

I feel doubtful of it as well, except for maybe a really niche situation.

Like a tree/mountain blocking the knight to reach a catapult, but a tri going around it via the water, or by using its range.

[lofty wasp]

That's more the opponent playing bad than you playing well

[radiant surge]

yea but even in niche situations I feel like a well placed yelly would provide more value

[torn mica]

A knight pressures the opponent to spead out their forces, even if the opponent plays well.

[inland acorn]

Tridention has the benefit of being on water
Where the value of all units around it are high so they play on an even battlefield

7* scouts and 7* rammers and 17* bombers

[radiant surge]

most probably yes, but isnt it the knight's purpose ? capitalizing on a mistake ?

[torn mica]

If I'm on the water, I'd probably just use sharks. They have a longer reach than tris, and do more damage.

[radiant surge]

• ignore retaliation, unlike trid

[inland acorn]

They dont have longer reach just the same

[torn mica]

Ah, right. My bad.

[lofty wasp]

yes, but the strength of a knight doesn't come from the once in a blue moon massive game winning chain. As KC mentioned, the strength of a knight is the sheer pressure from its presence more than anything else

[radiant surge]

yea but whats the strength of a tridention then ? just oneshot it with a rammer/battleship lol

[torn mica]

Even with equal reach, I think sharks might be more valuable on the water than the tris.

[inland acorn]

You can get two units with a tridention easily

[austere fossil]

Congrats Lancer. Your recent activity just advanced you to level 26!

[torn mica]

A single tridention? How?

Are they already weakened?

[inland acorn]

Yeah you want setup but the rest of aquarion's units are good for that

Amphibion hits one you kill it and get a free hit

[torn mica]

If they are already weakened, then can't the sharks do the same thing?

Err- nvm. I'm thinking 2 sharks.

[radiant surge]

#1253335148498391140 ( ) would be a buff to tridention in itself

[inland acorn]

Sharks still are 2 def units

You get range advantage with a tridention

And you can use your amphibion to chump block

[radiant surge]

the range advantage is poor when every enemy unit can reach you regardless, so better use sharks that ignore retaliation anyway, because tridention cant fight scouts

[torn mica]

How would you (personally) set it up?
Say you have two enemy navy units of your choice at full health, how would you prefer to damage them as to set them up for the tri?

[inland acorn]

Assuming you both have equal value of units in stars it is simple
2 amphibions and a tridention

[torn mica]

Which naval units are you up against? Rammers or scouts? 15hp or 10hp?

[austere fossil]

Congrats KC. Your recent activity just advanced you to level 12!

[inland acorn]

Actually I dont remember the numbers on that fight

Oops

[radiant surge]

my propositions to improve tridentions would be either:

• use #1253335148498391140
• increase their damage back to 3
• give them a 1 tile escape after attacking
• reduce their cost (8* -> 6*)
• increase their defense
• reduce further their attack (2.5 -> 2) and make them pricier archers, which free a slot for a new unit in chivalry

[inland acorn]

3 damage tridentions have no counter

[radiant surge]

rammers and battleships still dont get oneshot

[inland acorn]

Battleship?

[radiant surge]

with 3 damage atleast you can kill riders/knights without defense

[radiant surge]

the t3 ship

[inland acorn]

You dont pick that against aquarion

It usually dies too quick to be worth it

I say that because it was true even before this update

[azure cosmos]

Trust me right now they're not worth the cost.

[radiant surge]

well, I m gonna get insulted probably, but bots do

[inland acorn]

They sure do

[radiant surge]

I m probably not used to new aquarion yet, but oumaji spamming riders/knights and scouts just destroys me

[inland acorn]

Yeah the aquarion of today isnt simple to play

[radiant surge]

what saved me was cloak spam lol

aquarion cloak is very good tbh

[torn mica]

Can we work it out then? I wanna see how supported tris vs sharks compares. Which situation would be most in favor of supported tris being better? Rammers or Scouts; 10hp or 15hp?
If you're unsure, I'll have to do them 1 by 1 😭

[radiant surge]

also, one of my big issues is this

a veteran tridention (15hp) + aquatism defense bonus get oneshot by a doomux...

[inland acorn]

Yeah tridentions arent 1v1 units rn

Doomux have 4 atk

[torn mica]

I mean the scenarios 1 by 1.
Nvm. That wasn't @ me.

[inland acorn]

They should oneshot it

[radiant surge]

your 8 stars veteran unit getting oneshot is bad

what is even the point of veteran at this point

[torn mica]

Sweats nervously in catapult.

[radiant surge]

catapult atleast pack a punch at a large distance

[inland acorn]

Doomux and catapult only have 4 atk

They are the exception

Besides giants but you are not getting hit by those

[torn mica]

2 scouts with 10hp vs 2 amphi + 1 tri
AQ-T1: Each amphi attacks each Scout. Tri cleans up the remains.

2 scouts with 10hp vs 2 sharks
AQ-T1: Each shark takes out a scout.

2 scouts with 15hp vs 2 amphi + 1 tri
AQ-T1: Each amphi attacks the same Scout. Tri finishes it off and damages the other scout.
ENEMY-T1: Attacks any AQ unit.
AQ-T2: Finishes off last scout. All AQ units are injured.

2 scouts with 15hp vs 2 sharks
AQ-T1: Each shark attacks the same scout. Scout dies.
ENEMY-T1: Attacks any shark.
AQ-T2: Finishes off last scout. One shark is injured.

At least with scouts, I think I'd pick to use sharks. It's a total of two more stars (14 stars vs 16 stars), but I get to free up a unit slot.
More realistically, the scouts/rammers out range the amphis, so one might not even be able to attack first with them.

Didn't do the math with rammers yet.

Tested it with 2 15hp rammers. Assuming I did it correctly and optimally, the sharks can take them out, but the 2 amphi + 1 tri could not. AQ went first. If this is correct, I'd say 2 sharks are better in this case.

[pastel lava]

For a t3 tech they are pretty pitiful. Maybe less stars like 5 would be better but they are so weak and do the same amount of damage as an amphibians almost. I get they clean up with yellies, but by the time you have yellies and finally get tridents, it's not even usefull

They can't have the 3 damage back or they are too good but idk

[spare gust]

To be honest I really think tridentions are not filling their purpose.

Their attack is too low to persist most atimes

[copper geyser]

If you mix teodentions with jellies, they absolutely slay

They are more like a damage support unit, kind of like a catapult. Jellies and crabs should be in front of them

[radiant surge]

in terms of gameplay, needing a t3 unit to get value of another t3 unit is not good

because at this point just make 2 yellies, you save a lot of money

especially since the 2 trees are polar opposite

[copper geyser]

Right, but when you have both of them, it's like getting Exodia and you just win. So it's good that there is a significant economic barrier

Especially when you get the other T3 nail in the coffin: pufferfish

[graceful ruin]

but realistically you wont be getting both of them that much

90% of the time you will go down the fishing branch since thats where free water movement is

And then it would only be like way later that you even consider the tridention branch

unless you have some niche tactic

playing the beta i haven't really felt the need to get anything on the rider branch at all really since the shark is pretty much just better for quick expansion imo

[copper geyser]

I use riders because they can go though flooded terrain and water both with 2 movement, and they are way cheaper than sharks. I usually don't get sharks until much later haha

Atolls are the worst though. I get them as an afterthought

[haughty ravine]

Heres a fun fact

On paper tridents rn arent bad

Actually theyre strong

But theyre a tier 3 unit

Of the chivalry branch

Which means you gotta waste 12-18 stars on free spirit before even accessing the tech

And free spirit is ass

The issue with tridentions currently is this

Free spirit is bad and they arent super strong to justify getting it

[haughty ravine]

Youre doing something wrong lmao

Atolls are Crazy

Idk why you're not getting them every game

But theyre p much one of the main things going on for aqua rn

[haughty ravine]

Harpooners arent making it into the game

Mobile beta is pre release

It's to find bugs

And do some changes in extremis

Never to add more features

I'm sorry Lootam

[radiant surge]

then making suggestions are pointless now

🤷‍♂️

[haughty ravine]

Pretty much yes

[radiant surge]

we can close all the threads

[haughty ravine]

Pretty much yes

Unless you get everyone to beg the devs to get it into the game

Then maybe this time it'll go diffrently

But I highly doubt it

[pastel lava]

Haepooners would be so cool

[spare gust]

Sharks are not filling to their cost ,I suggest making them cost 7stars

[haughty ravine]

6 >>

[radiant surge]

lmao a full life tridention cant kill a 9hp shaman

how the hell am I supposed to get value out of this unit

[graceful ruin]

with yellybellys

or sacrificial units

They are still quite effective at clearing areas of more squishy units if you have 2-3 tridentions paired with yellybellys and/or ground troops to weaken

[pastel lava]

But by the time you have sharks and yellies, why would you go for tridents over something like a puffer Wich will seal the win?

What if they didbt have dash?

Theb they would be very good with 3 damage back and a distraction to the opponent bc he knows whats coming if he doesnt attack it

My goodness my grammer sucks

[graceful ruin]

I think most of the aquarion units just need slightly tweaking

i think sharks either need a buff or a reduced cost

tridentions need a reduced cost or putting back to 3 attack

and yelly bellys are mostly fine i think maybe just a shock area attack so you arent forced to move it

[haughty ravine]

Yellys rn feel crazy

Idt they need Anything

[cloud edge]

I think persist is cool, but 2.5 means you realistically need two tirdentions, so you are usually getting 3 hits from two instead of 4 from two. And amphibians lose out cause they don't have range.

[graceful ruin]

does 2.5 one shot a raft?

I feel like that should be the threshold

one shotting a 10hp 1 def unit

so primarily riders and warrior/rider rafts

[torn mica]

No. Only thing it one shots are the 5hp units, and a 10hp catapult, if I'm not mistaken.

[mint burrow]

No 2.5 cant one shot anything expect for 10hp catapults and hexapod

[untold meteor]

3 attack is so unbalanced tho

[radiant surge]

I think mindbender is currently the key to a good aquarion gameplay, because bombers are the best synergy with tridention, and centipedes are the best unit to flood with lmao

[weak canopy]

What will happen if trident movement is boosted to 4 and are given sneak?

[torn mica]

Segments can flood on their own?

[torn mica]

Probably wont do much for offense 'cause they can't move too far in land if the ground's not soaked.

[graceful ruin]

It only was because of escape which made it uber cringe

but now they only cover a 5x5 area

and can only one shot the weak things in that area

[junior coyote]

No they were unbalanced with 3atk and persist

Ranged persist is really strong

[inland acorn]

Yeah aquarion has cost advantage over everyone and those guys would give them a win condition for the stage of the game they were at

[radiant surge]

yup lmao

[untold meteor]

I don't think they should one shot scouts with presist ngl

[junior coyote]

Something worth keeping in mind is that most naval units are really expensive, so a trident being able to oneshot scouts or 2 shot rammers would actually make for some really insane trades

Even just killing 2 scouts is a 14 for 8 exchange

And you get an extra hit after that

With 2.5 atk tridents, they can still be quite effective, esp when combined with something like sharks or yellys which can get good damage but not always enough to kill

If for whatever reason tridents are too weak at 2.5 atk, buffing them back to 3 atk would be a bad decision

It would instead be better to buff their movement or something

[azure cosmos]

For everyone saying that 3 attack tridentions is to powerful you fail to realize that scouts can easily kill or significantly weaken tridentions.

This is why it's important that you always get the first hit in on the tridentions with a scout.

They are very much like polytars in the fact that it always more effective to get the first hit in. Because they have 1 def they will be far weaker after being attacked.

The 3 attack tridentions was not even op. A 3 attack tridention can't even one shot a scoutship with a def bonus.

[junior coyote]

Easily kill? Only if the opponent lets you. Easily weaken? Doesn’t matter since it still remains a threat even when weakened

[junior coyote]

A full hp scout*

[mighty needle]

You didn't provide the hp of your naval unit, so we made it a Warrior
Full hp naval units do the same damage regardless of their max hp

The outcome of the fight is:

Attacker: startHP ➔ endHP (enemyHP)

Swordsman: 15 ➔ 11 (2)

**Default Warrior (protected)**:

9 ➔ 2

[junior coyote]

Oh it works with 9hp too

Although a trident retaliates for 2, so ig 8 is the more important value

[mighty needle]

You didn't provide the hp of your naval unit, so we made it a Warrior
Full hp naval units do the same damage regardless of their max hp

The outcome of the fight is:

Attacker: startHP ➔ endHP (enemyHP)

Swordsman: 15 ➔ 15 (0)

**Default Warrior (protected)**:

8 ➔ PINGED LUNA

[junior coyote]

Mmm

[azure cosmos]

Yeah mid game 15 health scouts can trade pretty easily with tridentions.

[junior coyote]

Yeah just make sure the opponent isn’t using other units, and get defender scouts

Simple enough

[mighty needle]

The outcome of the fight is:

Attacker: startHP ➔ endHP (enemyHP)

Rider: 10 ➔ 8 (10)
Swordsman: 15 ➔ 15 (0)

**Veteran Rider (protected)**:

15 ➔ BOTHERED NELLUK

[junior coyote]

I think the only actually positive trade you get against tridents is a defender rammer

[azure cosmos]

Now a 15 health scout ship easily outclasses a tridention especially since they can almost always get the first hit in since the have more movement.

[junior coyote]

Which can be body blocked by warriors lol

[junior coyote]

They only get first hit if you have a space advantage

If you’re on the back foot, it’s almost impossible to advance on them

Esp if there’s another trident behind, since if you kill 1, you lose everything you used to kill it

[azure cosmos]

Yep and that's why you also won't just be using scoutships.

[junior coyote]

True just get a ton of techs and buy expensive naval units

Why didn’t I think of that?

Thanks for enlightening me. I now see that tridents were perfectly fine after all

[azure cosmos]

Well yeah obviously against a good player your going to have to use more than one naval unit.
That just how you play the game.

[junior coyote]

Ok but line unless you’re a t0 you kind of… can’t afford to do so when aquarion can send cheap units to pressure

And you need a plan for dealing with crabs still

Even with atoll nerf they still aren’t hard to get

[azure cosmos]

And why does everyone say that lame excuse "oh my gosh I actually have to research tech to counter certain units". Oh the humanity 😅

[junior coyote]

I mean if my ports cost 7 stars and my cheapest naval unit is 7 stars while the aquarion player has 2-3 star units and no ports, buying techs is a pretty big tempo loss

Giving aquarion another unit that can reliably get insane positive trades only adds to the issue

So it’s sensible that they get brought down a notch

[azure cosmos]

That's fair.

[haughty ravine]

You likely didnt test 3 atk tridentions

Or forgot how strong they were

A single tridention could shut down a group of 5 scouts single handedly

They could trade for 3-4 units right after spawning

[inland acorn]

The cost advantage is aquarion's deal most of the time

You cant push for too much of it or you get a one sided battle

[graceful ruin]

I feel like tridentions are in a really awkward spot

[inland acorn]

Always were

[haughty ravine]

Tridentions are a good unit locked behind free spirit

Right now

That's the whole issue

[graceful ruin]

they are either in 2.5 atk hell and cant deal damage without a whole othwr tech branch as support

or in 3 atk heaven and one shot boats

[haughty ravine]

You pay 2 techs to get 1

[graceful ruin]

I mean yellys/sharks

[junior coyote]

Well if 2.5 atk is too weak, simply buff tridents in other ways

[graceful ruin]

since thats their main support

[junior coyote]

Attack isn’t the only metric that can be changed

[graceful ruin]

which is a seperate branch to riding

[haughty ravine]

Range

3 range tridentions

Don't see any issue

[inland acorn]

💀

Wait and see is still my answer

[junior coyote]

True

People will find a way to abuse ranged persist, even if it’s attacked to a “weak” unit

[haughty ravine]

Orrrrr

[graceful ruin]

what else would you change though if not attack

[haughty ravine]

We can make free spirit not suck

[graceful ruin]

based

[haughty ravine]

And now tridentions are usable

[junior coyote]

🙏

[haughty ravine]

And good

Since That's the issue

It has always been free spirit

[inland acorn]

That one will probably wait

Because it is another can of worms

[graceful ruin]

i feel like you could lowkey just get rid of free spirit attach it to riding and then increase the tech cost of knights by a bit

[inland acorn]

That would not work well

[graceful ruin]

why not

its practically just the same thing but at a slight cost reduction

[haughty ravine]

Or 5 cost temples

Max. 1 per city

[inland acorn]

This game had a lot of issues on balancing knights

[haughty ravine]

Now free spirit doesnt suck

[graceful ruin]

a 5 cost 1 population is kinda rough though

why even are temples that expensive in the first place

20 stars for why

[haughty ravine]

Not rly tbh

[haughty ravine]

Glory mode

[haughty ravine]

It's not that terrible

Considering the tech would lead into knights

[graceful ruin]

no its definitely not terrible it will have uses if you are missing that 1 extra pop for a super

[austere fossil]

Congrats Tim. Your recent activity just advanced you to level 6!

[haughty ravine]

Yh

That and next is chivalry so it's a tech you can get

And then branch into that

W/o it being super awkward

Remember you also get to perform human trafficking (selling units for stars)

[graceful ruin]

why does chivalry give you destroy

[graceful ruin]

based

[haughty ravine]

Idk. Used to be burn forest but it got changed for reasons

[graceful ruin]

i mean thematically it makes more sense for burn forest to be in the farming bit

[haughty ravine]

I still cant believe there r peepo that believe old tridention was fine

[haughty ravine]

Yeah, true

[graceful ruin]

but destroy doesnt really make sense with chivalry

[haughty ravine]

Yh

[graceful ruin]

its kinda the only one that doesnt make srnse

[haughty ravine]

It's a terrible tech, too

It simply shouldnt exist, imo

[graceful ruin]

i think it has very very very niche uses

like ive used it against cymanti algae in order to place a port or cut the land bridge

[haughty ravine]

True ig

Or to do shit like this

[graceful ruin]

Which bought me more time cause they then needed pescetism

[haughty ravine]

#1271469159611367424

[graceful ruin]

or if your city is about to get captured you can just fucking nuke it

[haughty ravine]

Oh wait mb

#1272015015108673547

[graceful ruin]

so it produces 0 stars

[haughty ravine]

True

We like nukes

[graceful ruin]

i feel like destroy fits more with the hunting branch thematically

and it wouldnt really make it that unbalanced because of how niche destroy actually is

[haughty ravine]

Hm

Could go there ye

[mystic cave]

What were you calculating here? I can’t follow your calculations really

[radiant surge]

usable only with jellies or bombers lmao

I m sorry but needing a t3 unit to make use of another polar opposite t3 unit feels awfully problematic to me

good thing I can just get mindbenders and convert bombers

[graceful ruin]

most of the time your mind bender is just dying before it even gets close to being able to convert a bomber

since they either need 0 vision and to move right next to the coast line leading with a bomber but who tf is leading with bombers

or you send a mind bender back for it to get obliterated by the bomber itself

[radiant surge]

just put the bender in front of a port and wait for a bomber 😄

[graceful ruin]

oh cpus

a player wouldnt buy a bomber the same turn as boating the unit

[haughty ravine]

wait

omg

sirens have an use

an actual use

just deny ports

wow

[radiant surge]

?

[haughty ravine]

Sirens

aren't as useless as mindbenders

[radiant surge]

well, yes ?

[haughty ravine]

you can slam them in front of a port and deny any raft touching the water

I didn't realize that up until now

[radiant surge]

what do you expect as an answer lmao

[haughty ravine]

Nothing

i was just commenting on the fact that they can do that

they aren't useless and that's surprising

[radiant surge]

they are insanely good too because they can heal jellies/crabs to hold an area

[haughty ravine]

hmmm

wanna play

[radiant surge]

the way you said it I took it as sarcasm

[haughty ravine]

fair enuff

[radiant surge]

nop I m at work rn, and not fan of multiplayer

[haughty ravine]

...oke

[graceful ruin]

sirens still dont feel great im ngl

since for the majority of the time people will already be on the water

and in the process of moving the siren to the nearest port its probably going to die to a rammer

[haughty ravine]

yeah ofc

they suck

[graceful ruin]

or even if it does reach the port its likely to just get catapulted

[haughty ravine]

but aren't as bad as mindbenders

[graceful ruin]

i feel like theres not much difference

but yes marginally better

[haughty ravine]

yeah

they're not the worst unit in the game

just the 2nd worst

[graceful ruin]

sirens seem more like a skill check if anything

like a funny little gimmick that might work if they lack vision

[lofty wasp]

After some more games, I am further solidified in my opinion that tridentions in their current iteration are a quite nice and balanced unit. And I am also more and more certain that their position in the tech tree is the main thing holding them back

[radiant surge]

yes

they cost too much to get to even bother investing in the tree

[haughty ravine]

Alright. I tried to 'use tridentions' in a game

I gotta say

They are horrible

The unit itself was nice when it hit the field but to get there I had to waste too many turns and stars

I basically had to give up 2 turns to get a mediocre payoff. I can just compare what happened with what my opponent did, and those two turns could have turned into a crab

Or more

Tridentions rn are a waste of stars

And jellies actually do their job better than them

[pastel lava]

If you have the control to clear out a city and hold it without units getting damaged, a siren is not the best strat

For a port

[radiant surge]

I follow up on this, got to use them on a recent game and they felt pretty good to use, just need a bit of forward thinking

they are not units to reverse a struggling situation, but rather a support that accelerates snowball

I just think their tree should be made more accessible by making free spirit more appealing

[haughty ravine]

I love how everyone agrees on this now

Tridentions arent bad. Free spirit is

[radiant surge]

you dont seem to agree though xD

[haughty ravine]

No, I do

But IK that it will never happen in this rework

Ik that making free spirit not suck would fix a lot of things

(if it becomes a solid eco option it could even fix the early eco issues and that would basically fix every issue with aqua rn aside from sharks that just need a bit of tuning)

[pastel lava]

Okay I like tridents

Just tried em out more. They get like 2-3 kilks each turn. Just free spirit sucks