Revert the roads and huts price increase

[hallow tendon]

Even if we say this is extremely likely... Citation needed

[lone badge]

10 million+ downloads

Let's assume half are casual players

5 million

[desert blaze]

If people are frustrated at you because you admit you're not changing your mind no matter what even tho you opened the discussion that's kind of on you

[lone badge]

Now how many of those 5 million casual players have played in a competitive environment before?

Under 0.1%

[hallow tendon]

You said the word "assume". Citation needed

[lone badge]

I'm sure that there are 5 million active competitive players

[lone badge]

Things like this is why a lot of people dont like discussing with you. You focus a lot of your efforts on degrading the other argument for the dumbest reasons instead of explaining your own.

[hallow tendon]

Probably not but are we discussing all total players who touch online or all participants in a discord discussion. A discord discussion will provide bias to those entrenched in the game enough to seek out the discord. So again, where is the average truly?

[hasty void]

Do you need citations for a hypothetical?

[lone badge]

#1162398164482007150 message

[hallow tendon]

Not really, but my point was warbled would need to actually prove that, by some degree, a player would likely have more knowledge about the game if they were competitive. Which brings so many implications that Warbled needs actually evidence of just the bare essentials on what the ratio of participants in a typical discussion are

[lone badge]

A player that is competitive must know competitive strategies

Casual players dont

So they know more about the game

Because those competitive strategies are part of the game

[desert blaze]

honestly i can think of so many examples of games where it's the opposite of this

[hallow tendon]

Because your argument is just nonsensical from start to finish. Even if we argue, yeah, mysticul knows more than the average player (because he undoubtedly does), that doesn't mean he knows more than the average person in this discussion, it doesn't mean he knows more about the beta, it doesn't really mean anything. It's just you pointing to nonsense statistics and posturing as if you're right

Competitive play doesn't suddenly translate to game knowledge. It translates to competitive knowledge. Which is very, very different

[lone badge]

Competitive knowledge is a subset of game knowledge

[hallow tendon]

It's not

[lone badge]

Name a competitive player that knows less about the game than the average casual player

[desert blaze]

Pokemon is the easiest example of that

[lone badge]

This isn't pokemon

[desert blaze]

you asked for an example of a game

[hasty void]

It’s hard to compare competitive Pokémon to competitive Polytopia lol

[desert blaze]

some of the best competitive pokemon players have never played a single mainstream pokemon game

they just have good intuition, a strategic mind, and enough knowledge of the meta to get by

[lone badge]

Here https://discord.com/invite/pokemon you can talk about Pokemon in this server

[hallow tendon]

There's plenty of games where competitive players only needs to learn a small subset of a game compared to what the rest of a community would learn or at least try on their own

[hasty void]

But every competitive Polytopia player has played a mainstream Polytopia game

[desert blaze]

You asked me for an example of a game where this happens, that's an example

Smash Bros is another example

[lone badge]

The game refers to the game being discussed, in this scenario polytopia

[hasty void]

I don’t think he was asking for a game, but a player

[hallow tendon]

Ehhhhhhhhhhh

[desert blaze]

I said game

[hasty void]

Ok that’s just unrelated then

[lone badge]

I said the game not a game

[hallow tendon]

Depends on what you mean in regards to smash

[lone badge]

Don't you need to learn all the moves of all the characters to counter them

[hallow tendon]

Not really

[lone badge]

You need a least basic knowledge of the moves

At least specials

[desert blaze]

What I meant was is that there are competitive spheres of other games where good players often know a lot less about the actual game content and rely more on being strategically good and just knowing what's important about the meta

[hallow tendon]

You mostly need to only know threat ranges and some moves

[lone badge]

Why did you bring up other games

[hallow tendon]

Depending on character, not even

[desert blaze]

I was making a point that the premise of "game knowledge = game skill" isn't necessarily true

[hasty void]

But this doesn’t really apply to Polytopia to nearly the same extent

[desert blaze]

in polytopia's case that's less obvious but in a lot of other video games it's very obvious

[hasty void]

I would definitely agree that one competitive format doesn’t relate well to another. For example competitive 1v1s seldom see philosophy used, but competitive ffas see it all the time

[lone badge]

I never said it was, especially in other games

[desert blaze]

I don't really think it's true for Polytopia either

[lone badge]

What's the benefit? Besides for ai

[desert blaze]

Plenty of players know how all the game mechanics work and what everything is and does and still struggle competitively

[lone badge]

There are many casual players who dont even know what all the tribes are called

[hasty void]

In an ffa you simply are much more easily able to meet the conditions needed for philo to be a good play. In 1v1s you tend to be short on stars and under too much pressure

[lone badge]

That means they are playing too fast or dont understand basic strategy

[lone badge]

So you just ally your neighbors and then buy meditation and hope they don't attack you for 5 turns

[hallow tendon]

I'll say, I don't fully agree that this statement is relevant. I'd chop it down to just that competitive players often only really need to know their particular meta, and it's not uncommon for a strategy to come up because some random causal did some random thing that wasn't understood well before. It's also extremely common that the most knowledgeable player of a competitive scene is just the "lab monkey" who aren't even a top player but just tests random nonsense or looks in depth at the mechanics

[hasty void]

You’re never getting it for the monument. Instead you use it for the tech discount and mind benders

The tech discount is especially important, since more techs are needed in ffas since they drag out far longer

Like at least twice as long as 1v1s

[lone badge]

Oh

Mindbenders don't make sense

[hasty void]

Depending on the settings, it’s not uncommon to get tower of wisdom at some point

[hallow tendon]

My argument is that competitive players have very little incentive to step outside the bounds of the most competitively viable strategies

[lone badge]

Polyssuem?

[hasty void]

They’re really useful for super unit preservation, another key thing in ffas

[lone badge]

How does that work?

[hasty void]

Running out of super units is usually a death sentence

[hallow tendon]

Even then, no

[hasty void]

Use the mind benders to heal your super units quickly when they get low

[lone badge]

A lot of competitive players know the game inside out for everything besides some minor quirks that never appear in real games.

[lone badge]

Oh

[hasty void]

Maybe the best of the best might, but most that I’ve met tend to not

They tend to stick to just mastering 1 strong strategy and not going much further than that

Lots of rider spam into giant spam into knight spam

[lone badge]

I'm not talking about like strategies

[lone badge]

Mainly about knowing the exact stats of every unit and tech

[hasty void]

Ok well that’s just basic game knowledge

[lone badge]

Or push Directions/sanctuary spawns

[lone badge]

Well the average casual player doesn't have basic game knowledge

[hasty void]

Knowing the mechanics are one thing, but understanding the impact of the interaction of game mechanics is another

[lone badge]

So competitive players have more than them

[lone badge]

I agree, but there's a difference between someone like me and someone complaining that cymantis units are too complicated and won't bother knowing how they work

[hallow tendon]

No they don't

Only a small group of players do

[hallow tendon]

Not even the best of the best

New strategies equals risk, so the strategy needs to be suitably good to be worth doing

[lone badge]

I was talking about basic game knowledge

That casual players dont have

[hallow tendon]

So either you need to be willing to take the risk, you need to not care, or just don't bother

[hallow tendon]

Even there though

[desert blaze]

Honestly metas get redefined by players with both good skill and stronger knowledge of the game than the meta

[hallow tendon]

Casuals are more likely to do nonsense off meta stuff because there's no incentive to stay in the meta

[lone badge]

Do you happen to play competitively

[hallow tendon]

So casuals unironically will have more info on non meta stuff

[desert blaze]

Define competitive

[lone badge]

Citation needed

[desert blaze]

like polychamps/tours?

[lone badge]

Tours?

[desert blaze]

I don't play polytopia that much in general but I don't use challengemode

[lone badge]

Challengermode isn't competitive

[desert blaze]

I will admit most of my playing has been just random matches

[lone badge]

Polyssuem may be but only because pc players play in it

[lone badge]

Ig a player in pc or other largeish sized competitive communities like the Facebook 1v1 league or giants league.

[desert blaze]

I play on my phone on my way to work. I wouldn't call myself casual because I never play single player but no im not on matchmaking discords

[lone badge]

That is still considered casual

By 99% of competitive players

[desert blaze]

Then dismissing a players opinion strictly for being casual isn't really great either

Honestly I rarely even pop into this discord server

[hallow tendon]

Which brings me back to "which average are we talking about?" The 10 million downloads average or the average of players in this discussion

[lone badge]

I believe everyone in this discussion has been a competitive player at one point excluding chyufu

[hallow tendon]

But I'm not competitive currently

[desert blaze]

Do you want to play a match @lone badge

[hallow tendon]

And Idk if justeeni is either

[lone badge]

Sure

Tribe and map?

I prefer mirror but we can do no tribe bans or use pc points

[desert blaze]

chyufu is my ID

[lone badge]

It's best if you send a link expect if you are expecting to play with me again

[desert blaze]

Cymanti is what I usually play but Im down for anything besides lux and zeb because i don't own those and am unwilling to buy

[lone badge]

I believe he's not on pc at this moment

[desert blaze]

I'm on mobile lol

[lone badge]

Pc means PolyChampions

[hasty void]

I’ve never been in anything competitive

[desert blaze]

I meant because i don't have a link

[lone badge]

But you are on a similar level, correct?

Or no

[hasty void]

Closest thing is an organized 1v1 and 2v2 tournament I’m in, but those would probably not qualify as competitive by most people

[hasty void]

Idk, I don’t play with pros a whole lot

[lone badge]

Juniors are considered competitive players

[hasty void]

I’ve had a good amount of games with astrea and omega tho, and I think they’re pretty good

[lone badge]

If you are stronger than the average junior you are a competitive level player in my books

[desert blaze]

You guys realize you can still be good and have a valid opinion even if you're not considered competitive in this way right

Honestly I'm not necessarily convinced that all the good players of this game are on polychamps

[lone badge]

Some are on other leagues populated with polychamps players

[desert blaze]

the game has 10 million downloads right? lol

[lone badge]

The thing about polychamps is it allows people to learn and incentivizes teaching others

[lone badge]

The problem is there is no real matchmaking system

[desert blaze]

That sounds cool and all but i'm not really on discord too much these days and don't have time

[lone badge]

So pc is the best and arguably only way to learn how to play competitively

[desert blaze]

So we playing?

[lone badge]

Could you send a link?

[desert blaze]

Like i said i'm on mobile

just add my ID i literally don't know what you're talking about

I just add people and fight them i didn't even know i could invite via links

[hallow tendon]

Not how that works

[lone badge]

Hmm?

I said in my opinion

That's a very subjective matter

[desert blaze]

Let's play a cymanti mm

[lone badge]

You can on mobile

[lone badge]

What map?

[desert blaze]

Uhhh lakes small

[lone badge]

Not interested

[desert blaze]

u choose then

idc

[lone badge]

You can play that in random multiplayer

[desert blaze]

ok then you pick the map

[lone badge]

For Cymanti?

[desert blaze]

just not massive or water world and i'm ok with it

[lone badge]

You want Cymanti mm? Or any tribe is fine

[hallow tendon]

PC is not the only thing that exists. Just because PC players participate in multiple events doesn't suddenly mean it's more or less competitive

[desert blaze]

cymanti mm

[lone badge]

Usually is

There may be some things I dont know about

[hallow tendon]

I mean... I guess, but at that point you're diluting the meaning of the word towards meaninglessness

[desert blaze]

what's your ID

[lone badge]

Warbled1

[desert blaze]

u can dm me

[lone badge]

Let's do tiny dry

[lone badge]

No need

[desert blaze]

i think we're occupying this channel with our own shit they don't need

[hallow tendon]

By that logic, I could say "PC is competitive because it has top level FBL players". That's not how that works

[lone badge]

The reason pc is competitive is because of the team aspect

It allows people to teach others

And incentivizes it

Fbl is every man for himself

[hallow tendon]

Lmao

The team aspect doesn't promote competitiveness at all

[desert blaze]

tiny really?

ok i guess

[lone badge]

Only way I can stand playing cymanti

I know how to play but it feels braindead

[hallow tendon]

The fact that it's a competitive focused league is what promotes competitiveness

[lone badge]

If no one helped each other the players would be much weaker

[hallow tendon]

Peer pressure is more promoting competitiveness, not teaching

[lone badge]

Having dedicated teams helps more

[desert blaze]

how many pc players would you call weak if you had to put an estimate on it

[hallow tendon]

No, players would be incentived a bit harder to try to do anything for an advantage. Access to information is mostly the same regardless of FBL or PC

[lone badge]

I would have suggested normal bardur dry because that is my favorite way to judge the skill level of a player

[lone badge]

Me personally?

[hallow tendon]

Players like myself freely give out info

[lone badge]

It's not the same

As a dedicated network of people that help each other improve

[hallow tendon]

It kinda is though. Just look at fighting games before and after social media

[lone badge]

Are we talking only league members?

Or do novas and alts count

@desert blaze where did you go

[desert blaze]

I'm here

i sent u a request

[lone badge]

Can you answer my q first

[wet tundra]

There is something to be said about how competitive players can dislike changes purely because they change a practiced strategy. Doesn't really happen for casual players as much

[lone badge]

Do you mean everyone on the polychampions discord server or only the ones playing competitively

[desert blaze]

novas don't count

anyone can be a nova

i mean people who play there regularly on a team

[lone badge]

Ok

[lone badge]

Weak compared to themselves or weak in general

[wet tundra]

Wouldn't they be competitive though? Is a competitive player someone who chooses to compete, or are they only competitive if they are good? If there's gatekeeping involved?

[desert blaze]

I don't really know i'm just trying to understand how he thinks about it

[cold haven]

Congrats chyufu. Your recent activity just advanced you to level 9!

[lone badge]

You cannot convince me nova games are competitive

[desert blaze]

To be honest i wouldn't agree with their definition of competitive I am just trying to listen

[lone badge]

Half of novas dont communicate and another 40% leave the server before the game ends

[wet tundra]

Then your argument kinda boils down to:

1. Competitive players are good
2. Weak players are not competitive
3. Therefore competitive players are good

[lone badge]

It's more about effort

Becoming a junior from a nova just takes effort

Doesn't actually take much gameplay skill

[desert blaze]

Man can we start already

[lone badge]

I wanted to answer your question about how many people considered me weak on pc

But you didn't answer my clarifying question

[wet tundra]

Joining the server and becoming a nova is still a player going out of their way and showing effort

[desert blaze]

Because i lost interest no offense

that's my bad not yours

let's play now

[hallow tendon]

Do you turn

The conversation isn't that important

[lone badge]

Ok I'll do my turn

[hasty void]

Honestly I’ve found to be casual players to be far more stubborn than competitive players

They tend to stick to an even more narrow set of strategies most of the time

With competitive play you at least have to adapt to the meta

[lone badge]

Agreed

[hallow tendon]

Tbh, I've found it to be more or less the same regardless of competitiveness. It's just how it manifests is different

For causal, it's a blatant refusal to accept that they're mistaken about something, for competitive it's a refusal to take a step past the meta and consider alternatives

[hasty void]

That’s a good way of putting it

[jade topaz]

I dislike the roads nerf

[jade topaz]

The +1 movement instead of x2 seems like a better alternative

[stable wigeon]

the price nerf feels more like a nerf to yadakk then the rider roads in itself tbh

but at the same time oumaji doesn't deserve a nerf at all

[jade topaz]

yeah basically

[scarlet bloom]

i love it when discussions become arguments about whether people should be arguing original thing

[scarlet bloom]

can confirm from personal experience

[silk yarrow]

At least not anymore, yeah

[desert blaze]

i really would have no idea

but to me i just don't wanna deal with the hassle of the server

you have to set up games with the bot, add players, and wait just to fight other novas when frankly it's more convenient for me to just use the built in matchmaking system

i get the whole point is to get noticed by a team so u can fight them but honestly i can make games with good players i add on the ladder or even add friends from discord servers

I'm almost certain that i'm not the only player who feels this way and there's probably plenty who are good at the game or "competitive" that also don't want to waste their time on that. that's not even considering all the players who don't speak English

[scarlet bloom]

well its more of the only way ppl got good was through polychamps, it was just the best method of learning

in game matchmaking will not get you anywhere near the level of top players

but now ppl are leaving and they can teach others its no longer a requirement to learn from polychamps

basically the existance of polychampss has improved everyone as a player to point where if you play a bunch youll be decent

and its taken a while for that skill to traverse the whole community

[hallow tendon]

I... Kinda call bs. This is marketing speak from players who haven't been around for as long

Polychampions has the reputation it has because for a while it was the only real accessible competitive event that was actually successful. Most alternatives either was too small or too hidden (looking at Wicked Bender which started off as invite only, then when going public did next to no advertising) or was generally mismanaged

You can look at early FBL before discord players moved there and even then there was people willing to share information constantly and help new players learn

[scarlet bloom]

my point is everyone did move to polychamps

it made a very effective way of transefering knowledge

[hallow tendon]

On the flip side, throughout most of early Polychampions, while there was an attempt to train players, it was sorta done in a hush, hush sort of way, kinda out of fear that information leaking between teams would put them at some disadvantage. It wasn't until I started snooping into the game files and giving free information that players actually started genuinely using PC to train people seriously

Just look at early Polychampions and you'll see a lot of dead satellite servers like Tac that was where players actually went to get information

[hallow tendon]

Again, marketing speak. Everyone was on PC because elo bot would dm a link to PC, because PC made multiple marketing pushes, and because PC has been the most successful and accessible discord competitive scene

[scarlet bloom]

?

i dont care how everyone joined

im not saying they did somethign better

im just saying that game history leads back to them

maybe not very old history like ua re on about

but at some point most the best players wehere there, and a lot of ppl learnt from there,

[hallow tendon]

Sure, but my point is moreso that I don't think PC in particular is notable, and imo it sounds like marketing speak to say that people got good through PC rather than saying that PC was the only competitive place in town for a while

(Arguably, it kinda still is the only competitive place besides maybe giants league. FBL hasn't done as many marketing pushes recently so less people know of it)

[scarlet bloom]

it being the only competitve space was the reason for ppl getting godo there?

i dont feel like anything u say actually goes against my point

its just kinda irreleavent

[hallow tendon]

Yes... But my point is players didn't get good *through* PC. Maybe players got good *because* of PC, but actually training happened in many other places until around s4 and s5, which is also close to when FBL and giants league was spotted and discord players started moving there

[scarlet bloom]

i dont get what you mean by your 2 different words

like lit just seems either works base on interpretation

[hallow tendon]

My distinction is where and why you did the training. The "where" prior to s4/s5 was basically everywhere as organized play wasn't so organized yet. The "why" was moreso that players wanted to be stronger competitive players in general, not necessarily to do better at PC (which earlier seasons was not taken as seriously). It literally wouldn't matter what server you argued for the "why". So imo, it sounds more like advertising to make it sound as though PC was actually where and why players actually trained when that wasn't true before s4/s5, that was barely true then, and many of the players that would become notable (such as TR) has their initial training in other competitive places (TR was in Giants League, Quasar (player who played for a while, grinded elo, then left) practiced more in the Russian community, a number of FBL players joined PC and vice versa, etc)

[scarlet bloom]

ok io see where you are coming from, not really what i meant but reading back i see how thats bnasically only interpretation of what i said

mb ig lol 🤷‍♂️

[silk yarrow]

Lol flashbacks to all of the "puzzles and strategy" focused servers. Iirc Craw had one like that which was active until about a year or 2 ago

[dense wedge]

PC is a good place to learn cuz you can play with good people and pick the brain as you play. Before replay you don’t even know how you lost sometimes.

[hallow tendon]

Yes, but my primary argument is that's only true because the players are on PC, not because PC is a notably good place to learn (whether it is actually a good place to learn can get pretty debatable, especially if you don't know where to look)

There was a player who literally created an alt just to run a server to play practice 1v1s, and even something as simple as that drew in (imo) more interest in actually training the player than PC normally operates (especially for 1v1, as PC primarily focuses on 2v2 and occasionally 3v3)

From any other perspective, it's kinda just marketing to claim PC is the best place to learn. Most novas are left to dry in the nova program if a recruiter doesn't take interest in you

[dense wedge]

polychamp is better than most place to learn particulary because it is team based play

in 2v2 or 3v3 it forces you to listen to what other people are thinking

[hallow tendon]

I heavily disagree with that assumption

[dense wedge]

you play with a good player 2v2 you going to learn something. If you play against good player in 1v1 you may not even know how you lost

unless you go back to review replay

pre-replay thats impossible

[hallow tendon]

There's multiple factors that can massively change how well a team game teaches a player

• Is the player learning from the advice they are receiving, or are they relying too much on it
• Is the advice for the player useful? This is a factor whether you play in a team game or not
• Do the players even discuss in a meaningful way? Some teams may neglect certain games. This is especially true for many Nova games. As such, team members may treat a game as an overly complicated dual 1v1. Even in a functioning team game with well placed teammates, the teammates may understand each other's moves in a way that undermines the need of further analysis or relies on trusting the other player understands their actions

[rapid osprey]

can you guys talk in DMs or a separate thread

this is #1162398164482007150

[hallow tendon]

In 1v1 land, you can totally walk up to players and ask for advice

Even before replays

[lofty wagon]

I disagree, roads as they are encourage thoughtless spam for unfair movement buffs. Roads definitely need to cost more and be more punishing when you play them hastily.

[old dune]

Nerfing roads to +1 movement while putting their price back down to 2 would work

[jade topaz]

Agre

[old dune]

This would allow yadakk early expansion, but still hurt rider roads

[lone badge]

Nerfing roads to +1 movement while putting their price back down to 2 would work

[lofty wagon]

maybe also make giants unable to receive road bonuses?

[lone badge]

No that makes them too slow

Giants and roads are balanced

[atomic shuttle]

Would they have to change Polaris though with their movement bonus on ice? It would make their units be able to travel way farther than any other unit

[lone badge]

That's fine

Pol needs a buff anyways

[atomic shuttle]

True

[pearl raven]

totally agree

[jade topaz]

this is only late game, any good player keeps track of exactly how many roads they will use/is necessary early game

[lofty wagon]

my point is regardless of how skilled of a player you are, they give too much value

[radiant mortar]

This is our thought as well

And yeah, Yadakk got nerfed, we know, but honestly, it's not super dramatic. Roads are still very powerful

[glossy iris]

I mean if u spam roads you wont be left with stars to do anything else

I would also argue its more unfair now since you need a higher eco to use roads, you didnt need that earlier

[glossy iris]

Its those who can use roads effectively

And honestly most people cant use a handful of roads in a good way, just saying

So people gonna start complaining on that one

[earnest ravine]

It's true. I love to build "runways", as I like to call them, under my warriors to turn them into early game surprise attack ninjas who jump out of the fog and snipe the unsuspecting. If roads were not only more expensive, but everything was more expensive in general, I would think twice before I spent stars willy nilly just to take a village. The roads I build early on usually exploit neutral territory and do not connect to cities at all

[old dune]

but I LIKE fog ninjas

[earnest ravine]

It's okay, we can just use boosted hexapods for now...

[cold haven]

Congrats pylo. Your recent activity just advanced you to level 2!

[glossy charm]

Cymanti becoming the strongest tribe on Drylands

Hell on earth

[jade topaz]

Nerf t0s not roads

Simple

[old dune]

But I like yad fog ninjas

[worn totem]

sooo true

[nova agate]

Messaging to contribute that afaik, roads costing 3* hurts Yaddak's early game with no positive trade off to a non-broken strategy

[dense wedge]

Yad is straight up shit now. Not only is road nerfed essentially CH is nerfed as well lol

[tepid garden]

While I personally think that upping the price for roads might have killed Yaddak, I really like that they made the lumber huts more expensive, mainly because every single game, no matter what tribe you played as, would eventually have to get the forestry tech in order to progress effectively, which makes Bardur a very overpowered faction, and disincentivizes people from playing other tribes.

[jade topaz]

more so of a t0 problem

[tepid garden]

Pretty much yeah, but I also feel like the early game can be the most important part of a match, because if you can’t keep up or expand in early game, you’re gonna suffer the rest of the game.

[radiant mortar]

While we don't want them to be the best on Drylands, we would also like to put forth that we're currently trying to balance out the other map types so that you're not playing Drylands all the time. 😛

[ashen ember]

zoy what do you think about roads 2 star inside of borders

[radiant mortar]

We dislike the idea

I can say that we're still looking at things like bridges and Markets and hoping to make them better

But the 3* roads are here to stay

[ashen ember]

👍

[dense wedge]

forestry is only good cuz high resource density (easy multiple giant with sawmill). AND flexibility with chop. Now forestry is the most expensive starting resources. Take 6 stars just to get your base to lvl 2. Easier way to manage is just to reduce bard forest spawn rate.

[tepid garden]

Good point. Personally, I also like this change to lumber huts because it incentivizes people to diversify their economy, but that’s more of a personal preference, and funnily enough I still go for forestry because it’s just that good, no matter what tribe you are lol.

[dense wedge]

The questions should be is forestry unbalanced or is bard unbalanced? I think most people would say it is bard that is unbalanced. So this is basically doing surgery with chainsaw. Forestry is already much worse because indirect nerf to catapult (who wants catapult when you can get bomber?)

@tepid garden

[tepid garden]

Well said. honestly, that is a really good question. On one hand, you don’t want to obliterate the usefulness of lumber huts, but on the other hand you don’t want to make it everybody’s go-to strategy. I think you are right when you said that they just need to nerf the tree spawning in Bardur.

and also maybe Elyrion lol

[hasty void]

To answer your question, both.

[radiant mortar]

Yes

We don't like the over-reliance on LH's

It was to nerf Bardur, but also "the most easily used/accessible form of growth"

Now LH's are the cheapest pop individually, but slightly more expensive than a farm/mine

Good for getting the 1 or 2 pop here and there, as well as just being overall flexible

But not good for strict growth, which goes to Farms/Mines

But even then, it's not like we make LH's 5. 5 (farm) vs 6 (two LH's) isn't exactly a massive jump, just a single star

[junior ginkgo]

Forests also block movement, and provide defence bonuses, so its not like farms are strictly better either

[radiant mortar]

None of them should be "strictly better", but all have pros and cons

[junior ginkgo]

Exactly

[radiant mortar]

And huts getting a tiny nerf helps that out

So, the road and huts nerfs are here to stay

[dense wedge]

unintended consequence is that tribe like hood doesnt have much options other than hunt and forestry because their resource type. Furthermore, land econ/expansion became overall more expensive, while water is cheaper than before. Water control is already OP, now even more so.

[junior ginkgo]

Enough of the 'water is op' stuff
It's a beta, changes are still going to be made

[radiant mortar]

We are examining Hoodrick

And are looking at water

We knew someone would probably get the shaft with the changes, so we're looking into ways to hopefully bend everyone around it

[dense wedge]

Also at competitive lvl where every star counts the nerf is pretty huge. Anyone play any kind of strategy game knows economical change has most affects. Since it propagate to everything else.

Either way I will adapt to whatever is best strategy, but more viable strategy the better (picking the best amount various good is where skill makes a difference)

[junior ginkgo]

You lost them at competitive

[hallow tendon]

And can be chopped

[radiant mortar]

Nah, nah, I'm following, don't worry

Still, we don't want huts to be the "best"

[hallow tendon]

I still call bs on this Hoodrick is doomed nonsense. PC needs to move away from only ever thinking in turn 0 brain

[radiant mortar]

But yet just another tool in your arsenal

[pallid reef]

BTW what the devs think about roads costing 2 in city borders?

[radiant mortar]

We've pretty much thrown it out, effectively

[pallid reef]

And 3 outside

[radiant mortar]

Midjiwan likes the 3* change

We want to buff Yadakk in other ways 🙂

[pallid reef]

I am looking forward to it, and what about hoodrick?

[radiant mortar]

Hoodrick will most likely also be getting changes

[hallow tendon]

I don't want to buff Yadakk in other ways tbh

[pallid reef]

Nice

[radiant mortar]

But that's only if we feel they actually need it

Like, after any knee-jerk reactions have cleared

and the dust settles

[pallid reef]

I wonder about cymanti's OPness

[dense wedge]

Mcompany does not like any suggestions that i know of. The stuff he says makes me think he is either a noob or trolling lol

[pallid reef]

Does it perform okay in beta?

(I only have the game on phone)

[hallow tendon]

I like suggestions when I think they make sense

[radiant mortar]

MCompany does have a point, though. Hoodrick and Yadakk might not be as "nerfed into the ground" as everyone thinks

Maybe people just need time

[hallow tendon]

I don't think the discussion over Hoodrick and Yadakk makes sense

[dense wedge]

cymanti is not op just most people dont know how to play them. @pallid reef I can show you how not OP it is in 1v1

[pallid reef]

I mean, I can counter them effectively

[radiant mortar]

Or maybe Yad/Hood just need some small tweaks here and there

[pallid reef]

But they steamroll the other opponents hard

So at the end I get overwhelmed

[hallow tendon]

Yadakk especially needed a nerf, Hoodrick... Oh well, but they're still perfectly playable and within the intended balance

[dense wedge]

@radiant mortar i wasnt saying his comment to this specificall but some of the other stuff he say regarding land/water balance etc

[pallid reef]

And then there is the canal suggestion

Bridge-like mechanics, but for water

For those Suez and Panama situations

Those terrain generations are rare

But they do happen

[hallow tendon]

"Mcompany doesn't like suggestions"
Meanwhile I'm perfectly on board with some of the suggested nerfs, and only say no because I feel people are overreacting

[pallid reef]

Temples need love though

They are only useful in highscore setting

[hallow tendon]

Let's not start up a temple discussion here. That can be a separate discussion

[radiant mortar]

Right now, Midjiwan considers this as "working as intended"

I agree with MCompany

This isn't the place for this discussion

[pallid reef]

Yeah, sorry

My mind wandered away

[hallow tendon]

You don't want me ranting about temples

[pallid reef]

I still have to get used to the threads feature

[ashen ember]

what if burn forest was more accessible :3

[nova agate]

Ooh! Well I can't wait to say what the teamhas in mind!

[lone badge]

What about increased farm rate for yadakk

[junior ginkgo]

Do they need that?

[lone badge]

How else would you buff them?

Maybe their first road is free?

But that's too different

[junior ginkgo]

Personally I wouldn't buff them, it's not needed

If I had to, maybe reduce forest rates

[lone badge]

Which would increase farm and fruit rates right

[junior ginkgo]

Exactly

Just increasing farm rates reduces their fruit

[lone badge]

Oh true

[frail tree]

@hasty void don't you think this slower land meta would be the right moment to try level 2 capitals ?

[rapid osprey]

all capitals start at lvl2? lux at lvl3?

would speed up early game sure

[glossy iris]

https://tenor.com/view/leaving-stanley-the-last-shift-richard-jenkins-moving-out-gif-18559058

[lone badge]

🫡 goodbye

[hallow tendon]

Lmao

[frail tree]

Yeah that was the idea.
Sounded scary before, but now maybe not so much.

[pallid reef]

I wish lux got that workshop

It would be the perfect balance

Proper capital economy, but still only level 3

[hallow tendon]

Idk how people don't understand what the problem with Old Lux was

It wasn't the level 3 city. It was the 4 spt start

[pallid reef]

Lemme just enjoy dreaming a bit

[hallow tendon]

(And also the free wall)

[pallid reef]

The wall was def overkill

[hallow tendon]

I love being able to cheese nearly every tribe in tiny with Vengir, including turn 0s, but Lux just says "no"

Wall+immediate giant

[pallid reef]

Lux is the reality check of economyless tribes

[hallow tendon]

Tbh, I'm so done with people claiming Lux is currently bad

Everyone living in turn 0 land

[stable wigeon]

def not bad but it's kinda bland imo

not much to it

[frail tree]

You can theoretically start/focus on any tech branch with them. Usually forestry and roads... But if they're nerfed ?
(just finished a 1v1 dryland beta and went forestry and roads nonetheless. Got an Eye of God and made a park in my corner-spawn capital though 🙃 )

[cinder kayak]

yeah you kinda have to go either hunting forestry or organization farming which would kinda kill their offense a bit
they arent that interesting as before

they should probably add something slightly unique to them that makes them more than a lv2 city tribe

[frail tree]

I'm not sure they need that, or anything, but I thought of this : Somewhat expanded borders on their capital.
⬛⬛⬜⬛⬛
⬛⬜⬜⬜⬛
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬛⬜⬜⬜⬛
⬛⬛⬜⬛⬛

[cinder kayak]

that would work

it's not much but enough

[lone badge]

What would border growth do to that

[frail tree]

+12 tiles, instead of 16.

[lone badge]

What if it did +28 tiles

[frail tree]

https://tenor.com/view/sorry-but-no-no-im-sorry-sorry-i-cannot-sorry-no-gif-25056957

[desert blaze]

not having a tech really sucks

lux is just one of those tribes i will never buy not cus it's good or bad or anything but it just looks boring

which is a shame cus i really love the aumux skin

[hallow tendon]

I mean sure

If the complaint is Lux is too boring, I can probably agree

But, like, most of the solutions to buff it too be not boring just ends up meaning "let's buff it to be op" most of the time

Tbh, I think it's relatively fine if Lux is boring. We have 11 other non specials and 4 specials. This isn't that big a deal. But I can see others viewing that as a problem

But, like, Lux should still be balanced

[desert blaze]

they could give them spiritualism

i don't think that would be too awful with the huts nerf

[hallow tendon]

The whole point is they don't start with a tech

[desert blaze]

they could spawn trees to block movement from enemy riders

[desert blaze]

idk get rid of the city then

it's a bad idea anyway

[cinder kayak]

Nah it's good

Just made less sense since the changes

[desert blaze]

it would be really cool to see a tribe start with spiritualism

[cinder kayak]

Also they are likely buffing that tech so we have to see that

[desert blaze]

it would give a strategic purpose to that tech that goes beyond late game eco

utilizing the movement debuffs of trees early game would make an interesting and novel way to play the game

i think this tech on its own isn't strong enough to justify not having the chonky city too so they could even keep that

[hallow tendon]

Idk if I like that logic tbh. If you want a Spiritualism tribe, there should just be a Spiritualism tribe. I don't see why Lux should be pigeonholed into the role. And it'll be kinda awkward imo to this one tribe randomly gets extra bonuses over other tribes, even if the argument is "well the tech is really bad"

[desert blaze]

They already announced they won't make any new regular tribes. Luxidoor is the most fitting tribe to give a tech

[hallow tendon]

I would rather discuss the idea of requesting they change their opinion on that that just force in stuff that don't make sense solely because you yourself want a Spiritualism tribe

Lux is boring. And that's fine. There's other tribes to play

Lux's no tech start isn't really that big a problem imo that it needs changing

[frail tree]

Yeah I don't think so either. With Aquarion getting one, they are the one and only no starting tech tribe

[radiant mortar]

I think that Midjiwan is set on not giving Lux a tech, as we want to give them something else

[cinder kayak]

Something else already is a big plus
That's mostly what they need

[frail tree]

Somethin like that, or another small tweak/buff... Why not.

[radiant mortar]

I don't think that giving them some other small tweak is off the table

But that tweak isn't "a new tech"

them being techless is part of their thing

[jade topaz]

Lux should start with more stars

Yk since they’re rich

Also they’re the most expensive tribe in the game and they’re not really too good

Not to be p2w or anything but

[radiant mortar]

I would like to point out that officially, their high price is ultimately a joke.

We could have made them the objectively worse tribe on purpose, but they'd still have the highest cost

Like, them being hilariously expensive is a humorous thing, not a p2w thing

We'd like them to be balanced along with the others

[jade topaz]

It shouldnt be a p2w thing

I agree

But they should just be slightly stronger

[radiant mortar]

Not disagreeing

[rapid osprey]

mysterious other change 👀

[earnest ravine]

New skill: Fractional Reserve Banking! Luxidoor can take out interest free loans from itself! All building and unit costs reduced by 50% rounded up, and their SPT is used as collateral to pay off the other 50% prorated over the next few turns.

[jade topaz]

Bruh

[desert blaze]

you don't think a spiritualism tribe would be fun?

[hallow tendon]

I don't think it's necessary. And frankly, for the purposes of setting a baseline, I think a boring, middle of the road tribe would still be necessary to base the game around. There's no argument of whether a Spiritualism tribe itself would be good or bad, but rather whether it would be worth it to convert Lux to be one. And I just don't think it is worth it on any level

[lone badge]

So it gets to delay half the price of units by one turn?

How's does the debt work

[earnest ravine]

Full disclosure, I was mostly joking when I posted that, but it would be pretty cool if a tribe could fudge its numbers a bit. A simple resource to emulate "debt" would be SPT.

To explain what I was talking about, here is an example: Let's say it's turn 0 and luxidoor has +3 SPT. It would be able to train a warrior at a 50% discount for 1 star, but its SPT goes to +2. If it trained 3 warriors, it would be at 0 SPT. The next turn, the player would gain no stars, but their SPT would go back to 3.

Since odd costs are rounded up, a defender would cost 2 stars, and 1 SPT.

Now let's say they just harvested 3 starfish and had used all their discounts (they have 30 stars and 0 SPT). In that case units would cost full price.
If their SPT can't cover the full cost of the discount, they would have to pay the difference up front. Example:

If the player had 7 stars, and 2 SPT, a knight would normally be 4 stars and 4 SPT, but since they only have 2 SPT, they could train a knight for 6 stars and -2SPT. The player would train the knight and have 1 star and 0 SPT. They would gain no stars the next turn and have only 1 star in their bank (time to harvest more starfish!). However, their SPT would be recalculated and return to normal (so they could train a warrior for 1 star and 1 SPT, for example).

So, this would create a cycle of alternating strong turns and weak turns. Prosperity, and poverty, like the stock market. Luxidoor is all about money so I think it would be fun

Side note: maybe this could be applied to the economy in addition, or instead. Eg. You harvest two animals for 1 star each, and -2 SPT. Your level 1 city levels up and you take a forge. Now you have your +2 SPT back to reinvest elsewhere. The next turn your SPT will be recalculated to the full amount.

This would be kind of op if applied to the economy actually haha

[cold haven]

Congrats pylo. Your recent activity just advanced you to level 3!

[earnest ravine]

This bonus would NOT apply to tech upgrades though

@radiant mortar Apologies for the tangent, but has Mijiwan ever considered SPT as a tangible resource?

[radiant mortar]

No

[earnest ravine]

On a scale from 1 to 10, how interesting is the idea of SPT manipulation as a gameplay mechanic

[radiant mortar]

So, Midjiwan is trying to keep "spt manipulation" to a minimum.

We like things like giving you stars for doing stuff that might be a little difficult, like working with allies, growing cities, city development, etc, but it's not somethign we want to integrate into "a core game mechanic"

Things like debts/expenditures are off the table. Right now, the only way to lose spt is to have red population, but that's a rare sort of thing

[frail tree]

Would you be interested in making it a slightly more common thing ?
Like with the fishing boats I was suggesting in #1168241235492876469:
Generate 2 population on the turn they are built, but only one after that. Meaning you have to manage them carefully.

(Or anything similar)

[radiant mortar]

No, Midjiwan isn't a fan of that sort of thing

I think he wants a more "simple and positive" philosophy when it comes to stuff like this

[frail tree]

Say it's not poor fishies but something completely neutral. ?

[earnest ravine]

Cool, thanks for the response!

[lone badge]

What if you have negative spt and 0 stars

What happens then

[stable wigeon]

you die

[earnest ravine]

As I explained, you can't have negative SPT because the discount comes out of your SPT. Once you run out of SPT, then you will pay full price

[lone badge]

Let's say you have 1 spt and 1 star. You buy a warrior. Your city gets sieged before your next turn. Your spt was at 0 from buying the warrior but it drops below when your 1 spt city gets sieged

@earnest ravine

[sour vale]

I want to revert the lumber huts nerf so I can keep using bardur as a crutch

[stable wigeon]

no

[dire night]

Can we at least have roads 2* in city tiles and 3* in neutral tiles I don’t really care about the lumber huts just the road nerf if a bit much

[stable wigeon]

no

[junior ginkgo]

.

[glossy iris]

Shame, but good to even the skill gap ig

[lone badge]

If spawns were more balanced the gap would be there again (albeit smaller)

So depends if suburbs are added back

[obtuse sapphire]

The forestry tech line is already pretty op compared to farming and mines.
Adding 3 star LH is a good way to even it out.

[lone badge]

That doesn't address roads

[atomic shuttle]

Hmm

[vapid crow]

What if yaddaak gets a bonus discount on roads