Did you enjoy Jason Aaron's rather divisive Punisher book?

[serene marsh]

What do you think did and didn't work well with Frank's significant status quo change?

[static river]

After reading significantly better Punisher books, my opinions on this have turned nothing but negative

[static river]

(thank you to @frail jackal for telling me to read the aformentioned Punisher books)

[frail jackal]

Definitely

This book sucks!

[static river]

This book would be a thousand times better if it wasn't canon. The retcons make very little sense given Franks character

[frail jackal]

It was literally made to destroy and attempt to retire the character

[static river]

It feels like most books with Aaron attached are made to do that

Not all, but like

[frail jackal]

True!

[static river]

Look at She-Hulk

Look at Ghost Rider

[frail jackal]

Meet PTSD-Man!

[quick charm]

I love the idea that the only thing holding Frank back was his family, and the idea that he tried to suppress his murderous urges for them, but when they died, that excuse was gone

I love Frank as a Michael Myers type of character

[static river]

It makes very little sense given 616 Frank, though

[quick charm]

Maybe it’s because the only runs I’ve read are this, welcome back Frank, and Greg Rucka’s absolute masterpiece of a run, but it makes sense to me

Especially if you look at it as Aaron and Rucka’s runs are communicating. Aaron’s is setting up why Frank is doing it, and Rucka’s is setting up why Frank is the only one who can do it

Both have the same answer: at his core, this isn’t about vengeance

Frank is a killer

Let’s just thank God he’s only killing criminals

[frail jackal]

The idea that Frank is some bloodlusted murderous dude doesnt track with the overwhelming vast majority of lore.

He was a good kid meant to be a priest before the war, not whatever dogshit nonsense Aaron dribbled out here.

Year One also backs up that Punisher wanted to get real justice from the system, not use his family as an excuse for "murderous urges"

[quick charm]

I think that’s why the idea of Kills the Marvel universe kinda sort of works for me. I haven’t read it, but I love the idea that he’s killing because he had a reasonable excuse

[quick charm]

Hey, fair

There’s a billion comics out there

It’d be insane if we didn’t have two completely different interpretations

I like him as Michael Myers, you like him as a vigilante

[frail jackal]

But in this case Aarons interpretation isnt valid because it just ignores all previous, established lore

With the intent to try and ruin the character

[quick charm]

It’s finna get retconned out anyway. Marvel doesn’t like admitting it, but they operate just like DC, with a “whatever you want to be canon is canon,” mentality.

The next writers gonna come in, and steam roll over Aaron just like how he steamed rolled over the previous shit

It’s the circle of comics baby

That’s why I have hope that one day, Spider-Man will get better

[frail jackal]

I suppose thats fair but it doesnt mean ill ever like this clear character assassination.

Imagine if Batman decided to lead the League of Shadows and then his parents get resurrected in order to disown and express disappointment in him.

[quick charm]

Fair

[bleak furnace]

character assassination

He’s so heccin crazy he watches criminals death penalties for fun

[steel willow]

There's a reason he went after criminals. It wasn't just as an excuse or one bad day.

His house was blown up by Jigsaw who was hired by The Mob who killed his family, Jigsaw also killed his Journalist friend who was covering the deaths of his family and trying to spread awareness simultaneously The Detectives failed to make a case against The Mob.

All three of these things happened for him to become Punisher

[hallow crystal]

I think Aaron’s Punisher is mostly well put together, but Frank’s characterization really ruins it

[mystic leaf]

Aaron's 2022 run was terrible. I hate it so much and it's also incoherent

Maria's characterization was abysmal

[steel willow]

Wdym you don't like Frank as a textbook school shooter psychopath

[mystic leaf]

the issue here is aaron trying to be clever and flip frank's traditional characterization where he starts out fucked up and ends up taking care of war orphans but it's a stupid idea in the first place and handled badly

[hallow crystal]

I was onboard with what Frank was doing until I found out he was weird

I thank Jason Aaron for
Steering me away from the vigilante life style

[mystic leaf]

frank is my friend and he never did anything wrong i support all of his life choices

[steel willow]

The book would be good for the hype moments and aura if you remove the flashbacks

[mystic leaf]

maria's character would still suck, although less

[hallow crystal]

Frank having issues when he comes home from the war is a decent idea

[steel willow]

Oh yeah and remove Maria

and have it be just simple mind control

[mystic leaf]

or maybe have it be a fake, although that has been done

[steel willow]

for him to keep working for Hand

[hallow crystal]

The art was good

[steel willow]

Better explored in Cosmic Ghost Rider Destroys Marvel history

[mystic leaf]

this is true

[hallow crystal]

I need to read that stuff someday

[mystic leaf]

we have so little of maria in the comics and most of it is terrible because it's written by aaron

i don't know why ennis never touched that, he felt very uncomfortable writing maria as a character (and he has written dead before the story family members before in a way that characterizes them)

[steel willow]

Next Ennis MAX mini should be Punisher Zero Year

[mystic leaf]

maria miniseries that explores the perspective someone like her would have on the vietnam war

it could be soooo good

[frail jackal]

Yoooo Lieju is here

[mystic leaf]

not often but i have checked out the place

[steel willow]

Who the hell are these 16 people who liked this doodoo

[mystic leaf]

i don't mind people liking stuff i don't but every time i have talked to people who do like this run it's like they have read a different comic

[steel willow]

or they haven't read anything Punisher before

[jade linden]

Or y’know the whole he has pictures of dead animals in his backpack and draws killing his classmates as well as just being a unlikable human being to such a horrific degree that it makes Ennis MAX Frank look like a full blown hero in comparison

The fact it makes Ennis MAX Frank look like a full hero is not a compliment btw

And I like MAX Frank by him

[jade linden]

I honestly think the worst takeaway from this series I’ve ever seen is by a comic YouTube channel that I usually love and ironically the only person in the video who got that the Punisher fandom overwhelmingly dislikes this run and it’s a guy from my state no less but the guy who runs the video with cohosts just flat out says Frank was always like this even during the 80’s through 2000’s anyways so why not just call him the mass shooter he’s always been not even a anti hero just villain

The channel I’m bringing up is ComicPop

[mystic leaf]

like even if you think frank was always a villain or whatever it's just not true

like i said, aaron specifically flips his character

so he starts out a psycho and then mellows out idk it doesn't work

[frail jackal]

🧻 🧻 🧻

[bleak furnace]

How jason aaron and the IDF feel botting the poll results

[jade linden]

I’ll admit he does some villainous shit even in his most heroic stories but that’s the point and why he’s called a anti-hero

[hallow crystal]

I remember watching a video pretty recently reacting to an insane reaction to Punisher One Last Kill

[steel willow]

Punisher should kill more redeemed villains to piss off Marvel fans

[hallow crystal]

And because the person in the video was saying stupid stuff, that means the comments were just spreading misinfo about Punisher

I think Punisher should shoot out Spidey’s knees

[steel willow]

I have genuinely stopped watching or looking out for Marvel comics content on the internet

[hallow crystal]

I stopped watching comic channels when I realized I can just read them

[steel willow]

Stopped using Reddit
"Not interested" all the comics stuff I see on reels
and only discussing comics on discord

[hallow crystal]

When you stop talking about stuff you like on social media and just keep it to small circles it’s bliss

[jade linden]

Dumbass that literally proves Aaron’s run is correct about him

As BBB much as I love your takes from you Wrench that’s a bad idea

[steel willow]

I mean, it's about Punishment, not Vengeance.

Punishment can come at anytime of your life. Doesn't matter if you are a redeemed villain or a 99 year old mob boss who shits himself on a wheel chair

Also I know it's a bad idea

But the thought of pissing off Marvel fans is always a pleasure

[mystic leaf]

it's about the life of violence catching up to you. i do think that kind of storyline could work super well if it actually questioned what redemption means.

[steel willow]

Best we can do is Chest and with Rubber bullets

[jade linden]

It would just be that psychopathic scene from Civil War after he becomes part of Caps side

[steel willow]

I think Punisher shooting both of them when they are in a secluded place away from the Heroes Base would have worked

It's just that the dummy decided to mag dump them right then there

[jade linden]

Then raise his eyebrows and go “what?”

[jade linden]

Civil War in general wasn’t my favorite event and it damaged a lot of characters I like

[steel willow]

Frank was somehow better handled in Jason Aaron's War of The Realms

[jade linden]

He didn’t write that

[steel willow]

No I'm talking about the main event

Not the tie in

I know the tie in was by Gerry Duggan

[jade linden]

Gerry Duggan wrote Frank’s war of the realm’s mini series and Kill Krew. Oh okay I forgot he was in the main war of the realms comic as well

Also forgot Aaron wrote that

[mystic leaf]

it's presented weird. but he does establish to cap that he is opposed to the other side because they let supervillains in so it doesn't come out of nowhere. just not written well

[jade linden]

Very badly written and started the whole Frank won’t fight Cap thing

[steel willow]

Even in 2022 Handisher, Frank attacked Cap

Rare Aaron W

[jade linden]

I also kinda broke when Frank started seeing people as demons in that run that literally says “I only know hate” and even though he didn’t kill the kid the fact he thought of killing the kid at all was a “wtf” moment

I’m not kidding I I remember my eyes squinting as I just went “a-are you serious you’re having him debate killing a child?”

[mystic leaf]

which at least in civil war had a point about miitary propaganda

[mystic leaf]

i think that was in character because he is being influenced to see the kid as a demon but chooses not to. it is a part of aaron's weird subversion where frank starts out as a human fucked up kid and then with demon power makes the right choice

[sterile widget]

Idk lol

[frail jackal]

this run unironically peaked in the first issue where Frank slaughters like 20 Hand Ninja

all downhill after that

[bleak furnace]

i find it so weird that there are so many votes on yes but no one explains why they liked it

[quick charm]

Someone earlier said it was Jigsaw who was hired to kill Franks family

Doesn’t that also ruin the origin?

I’m not trying to make a point

I’m literally just wondering

Doesn’t Frank’s family’s murder not being random kind of ruin it?

[sweet hazel]

I like it

[bleak furnace]

why doe

[sweet hazel]

It's such a good stuff

[bleak furnace]

No he didn’t

[bleak furnace]

He said jigsaw was hired from the mob who killed his family. Not that jigsaw was hired to do it

[bleak furnace]

what makes it good

Run so bad we spent 4 years without him and had a mini series to help repair the damage

[sweet hazel]

Jason Aaron is the best

[bleak furnace]

okay but what makes him the best

[quick charm]

Ah ok

[quick charm]

He just is

Let DiamondDent live with their opinions in peace

[bleak furnace]

how conversations with jason aaron fans feel

[quick charm]

I’m not even a Jason Aaron fan

I champion being chill about stuff

[steel willow]

Jigsaw was hired to kill the journalist who was covering the deaths of Frank's family

He was also hired to kill Frank to silence him

You can't even read properly

[quick charm]

Amino never died

It was just merged with Discord

[quick charm]

I wasn't trying to be mean

[quick charm]

You can't even read between the lines properly

[shell apex]

What happened

[jade linden]

I don’t even know anymore myself man

[shell apex]

Oh