Review: Batman: White Knight by Bow

[grim spindle]

Thread for discussing Batman: White Knight, reviewed by Bow!

[elfin folio]

Oh yeah
Just saw this
I will say
I never liked White Knight
I thought that the book got a lot of things wrong about Batman and make him seem like the problem. Just for the weird message about how the police should be militarized (or something along those lines)

[mellow sedge]

The way it seemed to me the messages were that Batman needs to be held accountable too (which I agree with to an extent), and that Batman could help GCPD by giving them his tech too (which is true I guess, but the reason Batman exists isn’t because he’s a better cop than normal cops, it’s because he breaks the law to get results, which GCPD still wouldn’t be able to do even with Batman’s tech)

[elfin folio]

Like
It is an interesting angle to explore how Batman is flawed
But I don't really agree with the solution per say
And the reason Jason Todd is the first Robin isn't to be different. Sean Murphy just didn't know that Dick Grayson was the first Robin
Small issue, but I do think it highlights how he isn't that knowledgeable on Batman and how he wrote this more so to express this message

[elfin folio]

Well
I would say that the reason that Batman is so effective is that he can't be corrupted
Especially in Year One where we see that most of the police force is corrupt.

I think the message was that the police should be given more resources and more weapons

Which is what they were campaigning for throughout the entire comic

They invented a lot of new problems about Batman's methods to push this idea
While yes, Batman has flaws. I don't think the ones presented in the comic are that valid or were only invented for this comic.
Though the idea that people profit off of Batman's actions was pretty interesting

[mellow sedge]

Wait he actually didn’t know that? XD

[elfin folio]

Yeah
It is pretty funny

[mellow sedge]

Okay that’s hilarious

Yeah I agree with the things you’re saying. The reason for me though that it doesn’t really make sense is more that (in my eyes) the only reason Batman is Batman and not a cop is because Batman needs to break the law. He breaks in to get information, he assaults people, etc., all things that (among others) make him effective, moreso than if he just simply joined the force as Bruce Wayne. Giving the entire GCPD Batman gear and training still wouldn’t make them like Batman, because they’d still be confined by the law. It would probably help (though ofc corruption now becomes very dangerous), but it wouldn’t suddenly make Batman redundant

[elfin folio]

Yeah that is true

Glad you enjoyed it the comic though!
They have a few sequels but idk if they are in compact yet

Also
The same guy worked on Zorro

[mellow sedge]

They’re not, so far no compact has had a sequel

Maybe next year they will finally do sequel compacts

[cursive kettle]

this is one of the few Batman comics I actually like haha

the concept is SUPER dumb, but it is honestly well written

[flint thistle]

I just saw this thread

I feel that by virtue of it being a extreme elseworld(not just a copy of the mainline) it fails at it's basic premise: Which is to criticize Batman

First thing first this joker is confirmed to have zero bodies, so for this Batman to be so brutal, callous, and damaged genuinely makes no sense. The Batman and Joker relationship is one of the pillars of the batman concept, you can tell alot by what a take on the mythos is trying to do by looking at it's joker.

I don't know what SGM was trying to do because he makes the metaphorical good man that Batman sees in Joker that he wants to save, a reality. Which again fundamentally changes the dynamic of the relationship. The drama of the Batman Joker rivarly is "Can everyone be saved ? Is there really good in even the darkest of hearts"

When SGM not only made Jack Napier the original good personality but shows him being strong enough to stop Joker from killing the first robin. Well now the debate is changed from "is Joker capable of redemption" to "how can I save Jack a completely different guy who's a victim of the Joker"

Sorry if I went on a tangent but I just had to explain that by fundamentally changing a core aspect of composited Batman mythos SGM falls flat in his attempt to criticze the Batman concept

[flint thistle]

Thats also my issue, why is the solution to crime in Gotham arming the police with Batman's insane array of gadgets which can be utilized lethally. By the way the Gotham of White Knight implies has a more realistic cause of crime than the typical Mafia explanation that has become osmosis in batman lore.
We know factually that in reality arming police to the teeth does not solve crime, so in his attempt to criticize the Batman concept for rightfully valid reasons (even if done poorly) He ultimately suggests a even worse solution.

The police do not serve the people, they serve the powers that be, the reason why we give Batman less of a flack is because we the audience know that conceptually he fights for all and serves no institution with a long history of cruelty.
I think that if you want to criticize Batman's vigilantism you can't just turn around and argue that giving police military grade weaponry is the solution

[elfin folio]

Yeah that is my major problem as well
The story changes so much about Batman and Joker's dynamic and Batman's lore to push this horrible political message. To the point where it feels like propaganda
Idk if I am alone in this, but it is too the point where I can't take this story seriously or I can't enjoy it at all

[cursive kettle]

I just treat this as a What if thing

and even though sure, this would and should never happen in the mainline comic, I feel like its well written for a else-world/what if

[elfin folio]

The problem isn't that this wouldn't happen in mainline
The problem is that these changes that they are making to the character only exist to push this weird political message

The problem isn't that Batman is a more flawed hero here even though he isn't in mainline
The problem is that Batman is supposed to look bad to they can justify heavily arming the police

[cursive kettle]

I feel like that isnt anything new

especially in elseworld comics

[elfin folio]

To change a character fundamentally to push a horrible political message?

[cursive kettle]

Yeah

We have seen that many times

In many comics

[elfin folio]

Like?

[cursive kettle]

Wouldn't TDKR technically fit in what you are describing?

[elfin folio]

TDKR is Batman fighting against a corrupt and facist system
It isn't changing the charactee to push a horrible message at all

[cursive kettle]

Except Batman then becomes one too in a way

[elfin folio]

How?

[cursive kettle]

In that comic

Him literally recruiting people who know nothing and building an entire army and literally viewing them as nothing but puppets and soldiers for his own goals

[elfin folio]

I thought it was meant to be portrayed as him building an army of heroes and freedom fighters from people who are lost in life to fight against the current system

[cursive kettle]

Definitely not

Second Batman beat up their gang leaders they just joined him cause they literally know nothing but follow the strongest

[elfin folio]

Yes
But then Batman has to teach them about being real heroes towards the end of the comics and puts them on the right path

[cursive kettle]

And then even when there's someone like Robin who DOES want to help and bring good

Batman views her as a tool

[elfin folio]

I don't think I ever got the impression that Batman viewed her as a tool in the comic

[cursive kettle]

Yes Batman should teach them but that doesnt happen. Hes just ordering a bunch of people who clearly have issues and are weak minded and easily controlled

[cursive kettle]

He calls her a soldier and a weapon many times in TDKR

[elfin folio]

He does teach them as shown near the end
These guys were out here murdering random people they thought were criminals and Batman was trying to help them as he saw that they were trying to do good in a way

[cursive kettle]

But other comics that I think are worse are Xmen Krakoa. That fundamentally changed the characters negatively, had a huge message AND was in comocsthe mainline

[elfin folio]

Also
Calling her a good soldier doesn't necessarily mean that this is all that Batman sees her as

[cursive kettle]

That didnt happen im sorry...
He doesnt teach them to be good or make them realize they were wrong

Hes just using them

And they are following him cause hes the strongest and they are a bit cuckoo

[cursive kettle]

Disagree

But ok

[elfin folio]

What message were they trying to push?

Also
Krakoa has been criticised by a lot of the X-Men fandom from what I recall

[elfin folio]

If someone calls you a good chef
Does that mean that is all they see you as?

[elfin folio]

They are impressionable young dudes who now follow Batman as an example! So Batman (as a new found role model to them) decides that if they are going to follow him anyway, then might as well try to teach them to be better!
Batman starts his whole "no guns" rant near the end. And by the end of the comic he is training them.

[cursive kettle]

Well it had 2 messages depending on what you are going with.

1. Embrace superiority and unite all mutants as one and everyone else are enemies, and blackmail the entire world at the palms of your hand. Which....its a bit obvious
2. What Hickman intended, to show the downfall of a corrupt civilization that lost its humanity

[cursive kettle]

No people love it cause "YEAAAH MUTANTS are now angst and fighting back! Magneto was right! Screw humanity! Lets have everyone be cruel and mean to humans"

[cursive kettle]

I think there is a HUGE difference between being called a good chef vs being called a soldier to a kid...

[elfin folio]

This is the world of Batman!
Children being Superheroes in a dangerous world is common.
Batman is still shown to care about her

[cursive kettle]

Sorry but I genuinely have no respect for Batman depiction like that

[elfin folio]

That is fine
But the main thing is that I don't really believe that the message they were trying to push in The Dark Knight Returns was that bad. And I don't really believe it changes the character in a fundamental way to push that message as Batman was always about fighting against the corrupt forces that plague the average citizen.
Unlike White Knight

To me
For White Knight the message IS the comic

[cursive kettle]

Civil War that talks about security vs freedom which...
I am PRETTY sure was being compared to tragedy that happened in America everyone knows

Which lead to then many characters being poorly written

And again thats mainline comics

[elfin folio]

Yes!
And Civil War is heavily criticised for that as well
And I have the same complaints for that as well

[cursive kettle]

Superman Red Son is another one

[elfin folio]

Just because some other comic does it doesn't mean that it is automatically good or fine

[elfin folio]

I can't comment on that particular comic unfortunately

[cursive kettle]

That one is elseworld

So again, even though its like....
Ughhhbbh this is so obvious what they are doing.
Its elsworld so its whatever

[elfin folio]

That isn't how it should work

[cursive kettle]

Oh and dont forget TDKR turning fricken Superman to a government lapdog

That is stupid

[elfin folio]

An elseworlds should still respect what the characters were originally while offering a new spin

Now do a lot of them not do that?
Yeah, which is kinda why I don't like a lot of the stuff in 1610

[cursive kettle]

Forgot which Superman writer it was where they wanted to also Ditch the alien backstory and make him all american

[elfin folio]

John Byrne

[cursive kettle]

Him yeah

[elfin folio]

Yeah!
And that is stupid too!

[cursive kettle]

OHHHHHHH boy....

Look as much as I do agree with you on this

They often dont this

[elfin folio]

I am aware

[cursive kettle]

Do I often hate it?

Oh yeah

We get some good stories and then we get some bad stories here and there

Heck Abs Batman is a thing and that character is a complete character assassination to everything Batman is and should be

But people love it so what can I say

[elfin folio]

I think something like Gotham by Gaslight is a good example of an elseworlds
Respecting the character and mythos while offering a new setting you wouldn't get from a normal Batman comic
Reinventing stuff while staying true to the character
That is my ideal for an elseworlds
I don't feel White Knight cares that much for the mythos it is based on
And from how Sean Murphy talks about the mythos it feels he doesn't really care that much about it

[cursive kettle]

for me, I don't also like the "oh yeah, give police Batman tech and they'll solve everything" that part yeah I don't like but im pretty sure Dick and Barbara were put in charge too if I am remembering right.
But Bruce losing himself after Alfred slowly dying, Gordon losing his trust on Batman, Nightwing and Barbara distancing themselves from Bruce after how he's being even though literally even in the mainlike comics they do that haha, exploring Harley and Joker's story more, etc...for me, those were the highlights of the story and I liked it.

yeah literally Joker and harley here were really good written despite the fact, yeah its nothing like the mainlike comics

as its own thing, it does well

[elfin folio]

Oh yeah
I will give you that it does have a lot of cool character moments
And that is part of why I don't see it as an unforgivable piece of trash
But moments like Batman forcing to admit that Jack was right, or that Dick Grayson constantly talk about how Jack is right, or how pretty much every character believes in what Jack is saying is kinda off-putting to me

[cursive kettle]

I LOVE Kingdom Come but I am a HUGE WW fan, but even that comic didn't portray her properly but I understood the intention of why because the amazons exiled her and she became more ruthless, but at the end, Superman inspiring everyone changes her as well

so like, there's a good story and characters are different but the intention is a bit clear

then I read something like Morrison WW Earth One, and I want to burn every copy of its existance

[cursive kettle]

genuinely, ok pls me hear me out with this

is that a bit dumb? Oh yeah

But I literally fucking despize Batman and his "prep-time" and "contingency" plan crap and always justifying himself doing horrible actions in the past but getting away with it cause he's DC's nepo baby and he can never be blamed for anything while others are blamed for his actions

this comic literally having everyone talking trash at him, which AGAIN, the story presented why with how Batman is losing it with Alfred dying...

I was just

"YESSSSSSS"

[elfin folio]

Oh you can have a good story which criticizes Batman
Don't get me wrong
But to act like the solutions to Batman being flawed is giving the police all of Batman's tech is kinda stupid

[cursive kettle]

that part yeah is a bit of a problem

unless again if I remember correctly, Barbara and Dick were in charge

cause I know they were VERY involved

but again, White Knight ends with BOTH Bruce and Napier admiting that they were wrong

Napier admiting that he lied

and Bruce admiting as well that how he was doing things wasn't good

and he puts his faith in barbara and Dick, which I said it before to other people but the Bat-Family are better heroes than Bruce as Batman

I do not think though this book's message is, "police solves all the problems"

it was exploring both napier and Batman's not only way of methods but also how similiar they are even when they are put in the opposite fence

and realizing that again, they are BOTH are wrong. Yes Napier is seen more a hero throughout the comic, but again, like, I feel like from the 2nd issue when he mind controlled the villains, it was obvious "ok, he's gonna do something and lie", so we know he isn't hero

this whole idea that Gotham has a perfect "knight" but we see both the dark and white knight, are flawed

I love that

[elfin folio]

Maybe but it is the idea that I believe that the story is trying to push with how all of the characters are meant to believe in it
An idea that I feel that Sean Murphy wants us to believe as well
You do have a very nice interpretation of the comic I will give you that

[cursive kettle]

also again, at the whole Batman being seen badly, remember that Harley was intentionally setting things up to also make Batman look bad and record him that made people lose faith in Batman slowly

[cursive kettle]

hey I do think you bringing up how the whole police situation was handled was indeed valid and fair

I didn't thought about that but 100% that is a problem I have to admit the comic does do

[elfin folio]

Yeah
That is about the extent of my problems with the comic
Other than small lore changes I don't like or think make sense. But that is probably just me being a nitpicking asshole
I will give you that it has a lot of nice character moments

[cursive kettle]

genuinely the ending almost made me scream when Bruce ||revealed his identity to Gordon||

after all the moments in the comic, from their history of working together for years, to then feeling betrayed, to both feeling as if they have hit their lowest point, etc...that moment for me was just wow

but do i think this is a dumb story that wouldn't work in the mainline comics? Oh 100%

Joker being seen as sane and not Batman in the mainline comics would be absolutely god awful and marvel is already doing that with Norman where he's now good and redeemed according to marvel and I find that stupid

[elfin folio]

Yeah
But as an elseworlds it is fine to experiment (though I don't agree with how they go about Jack being a good guy again)
It is nice having this talk with you
But for now? I gotta sleep
Goodnight Eryx!

[flint thistle]

Why wasn’t this a ping Breh

[elfin folio]

I didn't want to bother you!

I just wanted to add my random comment

[flint thistle]

Also you’re not alone

The politics of the book are fucking horrible

So Batman is a violent reckless sociopath with too many toys that he doesn’t know what to do with

Sure man whatever

So your counter argument is to instead further arm up an organization that arguably has roots in Slave catching ?

https://naacp.org/find-resources/history-explained/origins-modern-day-policing

[flint thistle]

We’re friends silly

Oh now we are

[elfin folio]

Awesome!
I will make sure to ping you from now on

[elfin folio]

Exactly!
And IRL SWAT teams already have access to like anti-mine vehicles and crazy shit
And as bad enough as that already is
They are advocating for like normal ass police officers to have access to this shit too which is even worse

[flint thistle]

There are facist elements of TDKR

But its how do I say
It’s more akin to the natural proclivity humanity has towards it than a conscious message

Because in TDKR it argues that people need a strong leader to rise above their shackles and be better
That’s the entire point of the Gotham on fire scene

But there are facistic elements

[elfin folio]

Yeah that is true

[flint thistle]

wtf does this have to do with anything

[flint thistle]

"that part yeah I don't like but im pretty sure Dick and Barbara were put in charge too if I am remembering right."

So the insurance to make the police don't abuse the tech (which as shown in beyond the white knight fails anyways since Gotham is a police state) are two people ?