Courcle NPCs and Villages could be done better

[feral trellis]

It makes me sad and uncomfortable that the portrayal of tribal life in Mabinogi seems to be so unimaginative and lackluster. The other human populaces in Iria, compared to the jungle area, have so much more design and care about the life the npcs would lead there. Filia is my favourite spot within the game and feels like an actual place people would live in, whilst the npcs within the jungle just seem to walk in circles all day and dress in drab clothing that does not cover much. I truly hope that with the update coming there is more thought and love put into the area , the way it is now just echos preheld beliefs on what a tribal life looks like and is not fun at all to explore or be in.

[fluid wing]

How is this racism 😂😂😂😂 how else would you like them to dress? You know there’s humidity in jungles right? It’s REALISM not racism. Same reason why hotter climates wear robes in the desert to protect themselves from the sun and sand. The only thing close to racism was the elves slander from everyone 😂

[primal gust]

elves deserve it tho

[opal glen]

That is absolutely not what people in humid climates wear

[hushed urchin]

It's still not racism like OP is claiming. If the OP had just stated they wanted a rework of Cor then listed things that could be changed for the better then it would be different. Instead they went on a rant about "racism" when they could've said it was inaccurate.

[dusk nebula]

the racism was calling the elves humans (up for interpretation on which side this is racist against)

[split yarrow]

The racism was putting elves in same sentence as anyone else.

[lilac blade]

Courcle NPCs and Villages could be done better

[brisk gyro]

yeah this is bad cultural representation. This isn't racism because of "the map isn't pretty enough and i can't belive people would live there"

For sure I think there needs to be more design elements, but I think if you're going to claim racism, you should provide examples of what "actual tribal life" you're talking about.

Thank you Giegue for changing that title! Much Better!

[lilac blade]

I've changed the name of this topic to better convey the intention of this thread. Please keep in mind that we don't allow the discussion of sensitive or controversial topics, though it's totally fine to ask for change.

Please keep discussions on topic.

[sullen schooner]

Misrepresented or stereotypical may be the descriptors OP may be looking for. I doubt they was any malicious intent in the case of racism here (bearing in mind as well that this is a game)

That said, because we're talking about a game from early 2000s there is a fair amount of content that is outdated in general across the board for all races in the game, whether inconsistencies in lore, world building, or just representation in general all of which is to be expected as our perception shifts in the real world over the years

Either way to a broad revision in terms of personality/world building for NPCs and locations in Erinn, although not on the pretense of 'racism' and more just general updates to breathe new life into the world itself

[fluid wing]

look at literally any native civilization in history in humid climates, youll see primitive clothing similar to courcle npcs

[opal glen]

The surrounding ruins are obviously inspired by the aztecs and there is a direct reference to teotihuacan. The ancient aztecs did not dress like that at all

[surreal mural]

Iria as a whole is overdue for a visual Revamp. However, that's likely on the furtherst back back-burner due to Project Eternity in development.

I hope when Eternity drops, or soon after, Iria gets an overhaul in landscape, architecture and NPC visual designs.

[gleaming echo]

Agreed with Mhaol and everyone else honestly.

It could also stand to have music play. Kinda like Breath of the Wild ambiance.

[brisk gyro]

Things nexon can take into consideration on this topic:
The aztecs were a city building civilization. Far different from the surrounding or remaining-after-collapse villages. When cities are built individual people can specialize their skills because they're not having to gather their own food. They can begin a barter, or currency system.
The aztecs while being in a jungle area, were also a mountainous region, with a mild climate with distinct wet and dry seasons. They were also at a high elevation, meaning their cities were rarely extreme heat and humidity was largely seasonal.

Take these two facts and couple them with the access to plant based cotton-like fibers, they were able to make clothing that suited both the warm and cold days. Hence more layers, and more colors.

Now our Cor Village is a small town of less than 50 people. They live next to a river filled with dangerous hippos, and are sandwiched between a blazing savannah and tropical rainforest. Specialization, and creation of fancy clothing may not be on their to-do list when they're just trying to survive. "Drab Clothing" that "covers nothing" would likely be a cultural norm.

Weather wise, for how many layers they would have, is a little harder to guess because they live in a borderland between a seasonally-wet-dry savannah, and a regularly rainy forest. Supposedly because tbh it looks more warm temperate to me.
Which could work with annual seasons, and thus make more layers in clothing more likely to develop in the culture.

As far as the fibers go, there aren't any sheep in the village so I wouldn't expect wool, Cotton maybe but plant fibers take a lot of work to refine, and with such a small workforce may be difficult. Leaf or leather or fur based clothing would be more likely with the wildlife in the area. All of these are hard to dye. But the fur could be a status symbol or used mainly for seasonal warmth.

I've run out of characters to type, thanks discord. These are just my thoughts.

[split yarrow]

I think expecting nuanced cultures might be a tall ask for a kr mmo lol

[feral trellis]

By drab clothing I mean example" Shamala and Kusina wearing thing that looks like straw roof material from the nearby houses. Drab mightve been a wrong word to use because the NPCS you can speak with have detail, with some bright colors but it is illogical in its presentation for the weather ( Shamala having glove fabric). I like how you looked into the surroundings, referenced real life conditions with the opening statements and integrated it in how life might actually be like In Erinns Jungle. I think if people were to more closely examine some of the character's, their occupations, presentations, my original argument would be clearer to them... All around the jungle area dissapoints me, it is pretty, and has potential, but the characters and settlements are just husks that play on amalgamations of multiple existing continents & cultures and have nothing interesting or fun to offer. Iria's Cor village is a dreadful place when you compare it to the detailed work done in physis and connous region

[hushed urchin]

When they revamped Iria long ago they did completely just gloss over Cor and that area as a whole.... I think the only thing they've done recently was add a bridge for commercing?

[simple chasm]

I don’t think that racism is an inaccurate descriptor, because it is something that can describe even unintended actions. But I won’t delve. I’m pretty sure Eternity will address issues with Cor as they modernize aspects of the game.

[brisk gyro]

Plant fibers that look like roofing are actually actually historically accurate, dependent on the region. Plants that can be flowy texture and layered are great at trapping heat, while also allowing air to circulate. I have a pair of harem pants that is both light fabric and baggy and is a perfectly comfortable temp for all weather!
This material is also perfectly reasonable for a small village. Plant fibers take a long time to refine. Hours of work, and if the villagers are spending every day gathering the food and water they need to survive each day, they may not have the time to refine this. Unrefined plant fibers are a quick way to cover up and water repellant.

Back to my thoughts!
The jungle needs a lot of work! We can see below the waterfall the ruins of a city lost to time, but with a city that big there would have been smaller towns built in the surrounding area. And with easy access to the mountain rocks up north, far more of these brick and stone houses would have been made and fallen into disrepair. I'd like to see some of these spread throughout the jungle. The second image i posted is from Cambodia, and would have been something built surrounding a major civilization. Stone walls to denote land and paths would have also been common.

But saying that, I now wonder lore-wise when the humans got to the continent of iria. Cor Village is full of humans (unless they're some elf-giant hybrid unbeknownst to all lore) If they're a relatively recent culture vs if they were caught in between the wars of the elves and giants would have a massive difference to what level of city-building they would have been able to accomplish during their time in iria. Alternatively, the culture that built the ruins could have been a Hobgoblin culture, that then lost their home to the humans and fell back into tribal cultural habits after being pushed into the plateaus. This would put a cool twist on the iria lore ngl.

I have run out of characters again... Rip1hrcd

[feral trellis]

Thank you for your insight,
I did not know about the fibres as it was.

The very last paragraph accurately relates to my feelings, Cor is a large mystery that makes little sense to me as it is now. As it stands I cannot imagine Cor being a friendly enviroment for me to visit and enjoy because there are many contradictions between how things like character and town enviroment is presented. With actual thought and care put into it's background It could be in the future, as it stands now I consider it to be less than bareboned..

[worldly tartan]

I almost didn't comment in here, because as a native person its just like... Asking for trouble lol... But I will just hop in and give a vague agree to Cor needing some rework 😔

[echo geyser]

Map changes are definitely possible while they're doing the eternity Rework, good time to get opinions out there

[lilac blade]

I think Mabinogi's 'intentions' when designing Iria was to avoid 'representing a singular culture' with the Irian races in such a way that they could still call it 'fantasy'.
-# But... (see the last paragraph.)

I think OP's heart was in the right place, given how little development Iria has had compared to the rest of the game. We know nothing about these people other than what we can take at face value.
-# As others mentioned, they were completely overlooked during the Saga revamps too, other than adding a few extra idle NPCs and some Green Kiwis, and then the whole 'Shaman' village... They were a plot device.
It wouldn't be hard to tunnel vision on 'indigenous people' then form some opinions based on that, because any contextual information is niche and lacking.

So here's a lore dump!

Iria appears to be inspired by Eurasia, Africa and the Americas.

Elves mostly have Latin names (Eurasia), live in basically Namibia (Africa), and the OG design of their village heavily resembled Arabian architecture. (Eurasia)
-# Might be some greek stuff in there, too.

Giants mostly have German names (Eurasia), live in basically Siberia (Eurasia), and their clothing somewhat resembles that of traditional Mongolian winter wear. (Eurasia)
-# And they've got a bit of that fantasy-style Scandinavian architecture going on.

The People of Cor (excl. Voight) are humans who are unrelated to the Tuatha de Danann or other clans of Uladh.
Their names are variably American, with Kousai (Kawsay) being Quechuan (South America), and Woboka (Wovoka) possibly being Northern Paiute, as some examples.
They live in a region seemingly inspired by sub-Saharan Africa.
I'd describe their design to be a mash-up of pre-colonial equatorial groups from across the globe; South Americans, Africans, Asians, and Polynesians.

Iria as a whole is littered with 'ruins', not just Courcle.
Geogylphs (All of Iria), Monoliths (Rano), temples (Courcle), statues of kings and armies (Connous, Rano), and even the Gate of the Sun (Rano), which is actually a real thing from the early-middle ages. (South America)
-# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gate_of_the_Sun
The Geoglyphs, aka Giant Landmarks, are also referencing the Nazca Lines (South America).
-# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazca_lines
Compare to their in-game counterparts, with almost 1-to-1 matches with The Spider (Connous' Giant Spider Mark), The Condor (Rano's Giant Bird Mark), The Monkey (Rano's Giant Monkey Mark), and The Spiral (Physis' Giant Whirlpool Mark).

Latin, Quechuan, and German also dominate the map - literally.
Reus (Giant, German), Muyu (Round, Quechuan), Metus (Dread, Latin), Qilla (Idleness, Quechuan), Erkey (Mistranslation of 'Irqi': Child, Quechuan), Silva (Forest, Latin), Longa (Vast, Latin), Physis (Physique, German/Greek), Suytu (Long, Quechuan).
-# The list goes on!

Now, I'm not educated enough to have an opinion on what is or is not harmful in the imagery of the people of Cor, so I'll take people's words for it!

I do have opinions on Chapter 2 and Iria as a whole:
It's clear a lot went into the gameplay and design of the continent back in the day, but the writing was awful, which makes the whole region feel shallow, Courcle especially, and with that shallowness comes a feeling of disrespect.

Accuracy is not necessary when we're talking fantasy, but when the reference is real history, real people, and real culture, respect is vital.
-# Ignorance is not innocence, etc.

[feral trellis]

I havent read this but Im glad youre ok... By the length of that typing it seemed someone mightve died at the keyboard
I appreciate the lore dump.

As an Arab, Filia is my favourite BECAUSE of how beautifully positive it is,and imaginative in terms of architecture and clothing. I feel that it is a great fantastical spin on land that looks very much like where I would've lived, everything about the region brings me a lot of joy.
While I wish there were more structures and places in the area I recognise that it is a good faith depiction, but I cannot say the same for Cor. It just kind of feels like a puppet of preheld beliefs perpetuated through a digital face. It saddens me that other peoples cultures are blanketed and frankenstiened into one, the depiction is in bad faith.... I wish for all places in Iria to be equal in effort. Mabinogi NEEDS to incoporate the viewpoints and examples of people actually living similar lives, given that their previous iteration is like this. Faebae, It's sad you cant communicate your thoughts but I understand as the initial reactions to my post were just clowning instead of meaningful discussion. I dont want to play a game where Iria is allowed to house such a weird imaginative thought of people, and if this is the final iteration of Cor, it would honestly continue ruining my experience and interest in the game.

[idle sky]

Well with the foreshadowing of saga 3 (my opinion it was a foreshadowing) it's possible we might see more developments with some of these locations and lore as to why they ended up the way they did and maybe it will improve the villages image as to why it remained in the state it did. I'm expecting more time shenanigans thanks to akule and probably another goddess also.

[brisk gyro]

I think i agree on the point of not representing a singular culture. That's asking for trouble on any inaccuracy. On the other hand just following patterns and deep diving into the culture that could grow in the world they've designed would be a breath of fresh air. Hidden lore that doesn't even play into the gens and just builds the world would be fun and fulfilling to discover

[ebon bluff]

I feel like the cities of iria in general could have more done. In terms of fleshing out the areas. Cor is the only place humans live inside Iria outside of the scattered explorer camps. Yet their mark on the area is pretty neglected.

I think expanding cor into other areas of the region would make them feel more present in the land. They also would represent a good option for a future arcana dealing with nature magic. Since the humans that live there are able to do feats that literally no one else can do besides the milletian.

In terms of their looks, they could use some touching up of course. Since they are fictional, using real world indigenous tribes and viewing their culture and what they view as offensive would probably be the best way to represent them.

[tame sluice]

The ruins bring to mind Aztec culture (though they were not the only ones with that general sort of architecture) sure, but Iria is also a melting pot of culture where Nexon sort of just did whatever. Most of Courcle is named following Quechuan language and not Nahuatl (so, actually Incan).

Both the Aztecs and the Incan wore loincloths, but both also wore clothes over their loincloths (often cloaks/capes). You can see many depictions of Aztec fashion in the Codex Mendoza. The lack of such layers and etc. basically means that in-game, you can't really call this 'Aztec/Incan' fashion. [Clothing were often made with American Wools and Cottons].

Really, the issue with some of these fictional depictions is there aren't any high-class fashions. Kousai in particular is dressed a bit too humble. Like they would do really well to just give him a tilmatli cloak (though maybe they didn't want to since Krug already wears a cloak).

But like, yes loincloths, thatch houses, etc were normal even if the styles are not perfect matches (perhaps that's for the best).

As for Cor and the Shaman Village, both were sealed away in-lore for a long, long time by the Irinid. In fact Cor's lore specifically explains part of why they're lacking some things, because they're all exiles from the larger Lappa Village (you can quickly tell Lappa thrived much more than Cor) which was overrun with Hobgoblins (the location which was also closer to the Temples).

[Side note, besides me and Giegue I don't anyone else in this thread has actually read the NPCs' dialogue...; my response certainly rhymes with Giegue's...]

[lilac blade]

That is a point that we forgot to mention, right!
Cor is such a small and pathetic village because Lappa Village was "recently" (at the time of g7) destroyed and most of the village was killed. Woboka is the one of the few survivors. They fled east, as the Hobgoblins have taken over most of Courcle.

You can see old villages lining the banks of Suytu. Either they belong to the Hobgoblins or the Hobgoblins killed everyone in those villages and took them over.

And then during Saga it happens again: most of Cor village is slaughtered by a demon.

Cor village is basically a struggling group of survivors. They're not thriving.
Filia and Vales were at War at the time of g7 and Courcle was stuck between them.
The humans in Iria are genuinely the weakest race.

That being said, they still deserve growth and improvement! They have trade now! They could definitely have better expression of culture at a glance, to make the village feel less barren.
OG Physis and Filia had the same issue with a Big Empty Town Center (its player shop space) and that was fixed by adding a feature of sorts.

[clever prairie]

The problem with MMO, any changes to population and building density in any village and town would affect the previous story lines atmosphere

Or at least that what should be the reason

We all know they simply do not care enough

[idle sky]

That's why I'm suspecting saga 3 will start to improve them because they where barely surviving and now that milletian plus other humans are starting to visit it might improve their status and change from struggling to thriving

[tame sluice]

Its entirely possible to set it so that certain features only show up if you have certain content cleared, or if you're on certain questlines (i.e. G24 Moonstones and Destroyed Irian Buildings). No one pressures Nexon to do more than the bare minimum in this sense. For example, there's no reason that most of the Saga 1/2 elements of Iria appear for players still on Chapter 2 (the Memory Tower should not be dismantled for those players).

[brisk gyro]

You know i hadn't thought about the memory tower destruction but that really does put a hole in the story. It should be whole until after saga! But when they did the whole of iria update they just changed all of it

[ebon bluff]

tbf there's a lot of inconsistencies with iria, like post g27 still getting EVG comments despite their truce

[lilac blade]

A truce doesn't mean the war is over, nor does it undo the lives taken at the hands of others, or erase the hatred that formed over generations of warring. It just means that they've temporarily stopped killing each other, and this is true! The Town Guard wont slaughter you on sight if you enter town as the opposing race, and the NPCs are tolerating each other to an extent.

But more on the topic of Courcle, they've obviously got their own strife to contend with, given the Hobgoblins that are a constant threat and have killed many of them.
But... why? Why do the Hobgoblins kill them? Hobgoblins aren't Fomors, so they must have some other reason to kill the Irian Humans!

There's an entire lack of purpose to the NPCs and Mobs of Courcle.
Hell, I can literally fit the entire village's purpose into this post:

The Elder who was appointed leader for his premonition abilities. He practises a lot of natural magic and medicine, and is effectively a Shaman. You learn a lot of skills through him.
The Displaced Warrior who lost his village and his brother. He saves the Milletian from Cichol during G10, and identifies Shamala as an outsider during Saga.
The Pretty Lady who makes good Lipai Tea, and is very kind. She popular among the men, but only has eyes for:
The Foreigner, an Uladhian man from Tara who ran away from debt to start a new life pawning off ancient artefacts for money.
The Animal-raised Boy who can talk to animals. He is a friend of animals and translator for:
The Otter, a highly intelligent animal chef that has seen the secrets and learned the truth of the Curse of Irinid, and has spoken to the Heart of Courcle. They learned of the impending Moonlight of Death, and catalyzed the Milletians involvement in Generation 8.

Ultimately it's The Otter and the Uladhian Man who have the most character development in terms of story involvement, with Ruwai having an insane role in the mainstream quests, and Voight having an entire memorial dungeon sequence showing his backstory with Ilsa and Arenen.

And when you compare Kousai to Eirawen, Admiral Owen, Castanea, and Krug, its absurd how neglected he is as a 'Leader'.

The rest of the village is kind of "just there." I get OP's focus is more on how things look, particularly in regards to problematic depictions of tribal life.
-# (And again, I simply don't know enough to weigh in - only learn. But even the tropes depicted in each character strike me as stereotypical especially given the shallowness of each character.)
From what I can see as a player looking at an ethnic group of humans, they have no depth to their culture, no history in the story, and no real purpose to exist in the game.
They deserve more, and better.
-# Yapyapyapyap.

[tame sluice]

To be fair, a great deal of this issue is that the other two Irian races are entirely unique character classes, while Courcle exists mostly as a third wheel. Even the only 'talent' associated with Courcle would be nebulous 'Adventurer' (Taming, Exploration, Transformation) and that kinda instantly shows the issue. The devs just don't want to expand upon this part of Iria, and the last time they tried meaningfully was Saga 1 (where they basically side-stepped Cor and invented the Shaman Village).

[vague marten]

Shaman village? It was a village? Not a pile of ruins you invaded for G7? That's news to me, though saga really felt like I was trapped in a box more than actually doing some adventure tbh

[tame sluice]

The Shaman Village of G17 is actively inhabited by the Shamans, and yes while it does take place in the ruins by the waterfall it is inhabited. That said, the story rhymes with itself and by the time the player finds the Shamans a certain NPC (||Ruairi||) has killed somewhere between 10% and 50% of them...

[Further notes: post-Saga we return a great deal of times to the Shaman Village, almost(?) more than we return to Cor for story reasons (I'm not about to count this out).]

[vague marten]

I'm up to... uh, I just beat winds of fate.
but, yeah, idk, kinda weird they just sat by and watched the milletian slap some stone tablets into the ruins in their village without a word. :V

[lilac blade]

iirc it was more that they just reused the map as an asset

[vague marten]

Oh absolutely, but it's funnier the other way around lol