Upcoming Dungeon Changes, and Dungeon Limits in General.

[umbral beacon]

Hi there, I finally have decided to post some feedback on the run limit system as it stands, especially with the upcoming changes. It was already made a bit hard with the previous changes to them, and the ones upcoming will simply add even more frustration on top for myself and I'm sure many others.
Most of us understand the need to limit certain impactful rewards for the sake of the health of the player economy which is already pretty tenious at best. However with how its currently designed its far too punishing on Smaller guilds, New players, and just friend groups in general. Most of us have a large pool of people we'd love to run with or help. However with the limits we're locked into cherry picking who we offer help/get help from. Leaving many players out to dry when it comes to getting their content done, which stalls out their progression and also just lessens the overall experience of the game as it takes away your ability to play with your friends. I have personally had two guild mates out right quit mabi due to inability to get help with content to the point playing felt pointless. That is not the feeling you wish to foster or one thats good for the longevity of the game. Before these changes I myself was at least making due cause I could help people in basics without having to give up my set monday team to run Croms and Glens. Now however I will have to choose between my progression with my team that can do harder content, or helping my newer/lesser geared friends. As a guild leader especially this sucks because we have to basically choose who gets our help and it leaves the rest feeling like they arnt as important. The easiest solution for this problem to at least make limits no longer a miserable experience, Is returning the old system that used to exist for Glen. Letting people go into the runs with no rewards. this would be a fine solution as our main goal is to help/enjoy the game with friends. Cont--->

Allowing the more capable and geared players to spread themselves around to those that need help. Without having to sacrifice their own runs in the process. It'd also allow us to help and teach newer players as well. Which does nothing but help bring more people up to speed and into said content. Being locked out of helping people is just very bad for the game and against the spirit of old Mabi in my honest opinion. I am very thankful for the addition of rewards into basic and think thats very healthy overall so thats the one positive from the changes though, Can't leave that out!

[lavish eagle]

I agree with this; after more and more changes we've ended up more constricted on how we approach content then we've ever been.

Like Elenua, due to the April 2026's update, I'll need to sacrifice my aid of a Crom Basics team which comprises of guild mates I'm mentoring in favor of securing better rewards for my efforts with running Normals instead.

The same idea goes for Glenns; I host weekly Basic runs for the public and it's a source of meeting people, which I enjoy, plus it offers an open party for newer people to join and I can guarantee them safe runs. But now, I have to give that up too in favor of prioritizing runs with my VHM team.

I don't want to have to sacrifice time helping others and spending time with friends while doing something productive in the game.

I'd more than gladly accept the middleground of receiving no rewards or choosing not to expend the invisible ticket for them if it means giving us the agency to help others out like we have in the past.

[signal galleon]

I agree, I am thrilled that access to crafting materials for progression is going to the basic modes, however with this type of system I am encouraged to always engage in the highest difficulty I can for the sake of gearing myself.

Reduced rewards for running both, or even no rewards would make it more approachable for new players as they could get veteran support without sapping resources from those helpful players by forcing them to chose from better gearing runs or helping their friends.

The increased gold rewards are nice and will hopefully help with the in game economy, but as it stands it feels like we are stripping more and more possible help from newer players trying to learn the basics.

The difficulty spike from Techs into Croms is considerable when compared to Hard Mode Advanced to Techs while I am not the most sociable of players I do worry about the longevity of the game if it continues to forcibly encourage players away from helping newer ones.

[brittle steppe]

100% agreed with this one!!!

[chilly meadow]

Yes.

A similar thing already happened before, with Glenn Primeval Winter's release (AKA: Glenn VHM).

Nobody would run Glenn Normal anymore. The people who aren't good enough to pull their own weight in VHM were effectively locked out of the Normal mode content, because none of the good players would deign themselves to help, as it would burn through their weekly VHM runs.

[halcyon creek]

Agree these run limits are just not good for us.
It's an artificial barrier in a game that already pushes the playerbase into small groups.
It discourages branching out to meet new players since none of the established parties would dare waste a run for a random.

Like mentioned above, even forgoing receiving rewards once you hit the weekly run limits would be an excellent middle ground.

We need more opportunities to simply enjoy content together without worrying bout run limits!

[twin tundra]

Run limits have been rough in our version of the game. I've seen it tear friends apart. Run limits introduced a form of FOMO (fear of missing out). There is now an incentive to do all your runs for the week at the highest difficulty possible for the best chance of progression or a pay day. Group A might need more help getting their gear or learning mechanics, but Group B is available now and knows what they are doing. Most are going to ignore A in favor of B. Also not all friend groups are exactly 4/8 and not everyone is online all the time. People will be are often left out.

The FOMO comes from the limited rewards and methods to earn gold have been absolutely destroyed. You gotta do all your runs for the CHANCE it has a good drop you can sell. Then you get your once a month gold/red chest (I've had awful luck) and its a 100K enchant... That can't buy anything. It might as well have been a full repair kit. I mean most people I've spoken with treat the pity checks as more of a reward than anything the content drops.

What can be done? At minimum we should be able to run content as much as we'd like even if there is a rewards cap. I don't think that's perfect either but it would be a start. If I've completed all my hard runs for a week I should still be able to help friends with their content.

Although this introduces a different problem. Some groups share drops. If someone is already capped for the week, that is one less drop for the party and thus lower chances at pay day. So it can arguable hurt more than just the capped person.

[brittle steppe]

Here's my (potential) answer to this last part, tho it may not be fair at all. In fact, it's not really all that fair since the capped person still does do work in the party.
But for groups that share drops, and one joins the party and helps them run it even with all runs capped, they can simply agree to not get a part of the loot.

Ofc, someone else suggested reduced rewards (that the game gives, and / or that the party gives) for those who hit the cap, and I'm all for that too. In fact, that may be (and you know what, definitely is) better than my proposed idea, considering capped people have to be okay with not getting a slice of the pie if someone in the group gets a drop.

You could argue my case tho, and say that the newbies and midgamers will need the gold much more than a veteran. But you could argue against it too and say since the veteran(s) helps and does their side of things, they too should get a share. But perhaps, tying into what I said above, they could still get a share, BUT it'd have to be reduced. But that's also something they gotta agree with.

That's just my thoughts tho- :3
I definitely agree with everything you've said.

[umbral beacon]

All good ideas I thought about mentioning in mine, I just kept it simple with the no reward route cause it’s something that has existed previously. And is the option with the most likely chance of being seen and added. Since it wouldn’t take rebalancing. Figured rally for baby step first was the best course. I just want to see less restrictions and be able to help all my friends even if I get nothing but the joy of helping them progress out of it.

[brittle steppe]

Yeah I getcha. But I recently was told that the devs / community managers do comb through and forward the entire thread, so these comments are likely gonna be seen too.

I 100% agree-
And thanks for thinking my ideas are good! :D

[fleet sand]

You know what they could do? They could revive the altruism system by letting players request help clearing a dungeon and players who've already gotten all their clears can enter though not receive a reward, that way it can help avoid people using it to carry cousins since everyone available would get the notif.

[umbral beacon]

Also a good potential option. though wouldnt be ideal for friends specifically getting together to help each other. Since playing with friends/guild mates and helping them is the big loss here. Unless they maybe adjust it to be a guild toggle for it. Cause some dont like PuGs and that’d just basically be a mechanically backed PuG . But its not terrible if thats the only way we could get the option.

[ocean hinge]

It'd be nice to see if anything that's been suggested recently actually made it across the pond, because usually the feedback forum just seems to be a containment/quarantine zone for people to request changes that never happen, or that might coincidentally already be planned. Last time we saw something implemented that was directly and solely attributed to this forum was years ago, according to the pinned post, so my expectations that all this just gets ignored is pretty high, honestly.

Back on topic, though, I can't say much that hasn't already been said, except that it's baffling to me how tone-deaf the news of the change was: Wrapping all these net-negatives into a package and calling it a 'Quality of Life' change just kind of feels like a slap in the face.

[rugged ivy]

Playing devil's advocate here by mentioning that restricting run limits in this way is another means of dealing with the cousinogi problem

While lifting such limits would obviously be favourable for many, it would still retroactively reintroduce the problem of carrying alts in content

Not to say that it's impossible to lift the limits as far as proposals go, just that it's worth considering how it affects cousinogi farming in order to make a more compelling case to lift the limits

It's easy to fixate on how less runs = less opportunities for gold, but it's also worth noting that there are various other methods of viable gold making out there: players just tend to overlook them because it's not instant gratification of double-digit millions

[ocean hinge]

Cousinogi is a completely artificial problem: It is expressly allowed in the terms of service so long as you're not multi-clienting on a single PC. Add to that the design of Neartite and a number of events in recent history being designed with limited shop items, currency, and the like directly encourage cousinogi, even more.

The way to defeat cousinogi is to make things seem achievable on a single account, not restricting things further for that account.

[rugged ivy]

I'm 80% sure that while you are permitted to have multiple accounts, running multiple instances of the game simultaneously breaches TOS, regardless of whether it's on another machine or not as it directly infringes on accomplishing tasks that would otherwise not be possible without the use of another machine/software (could argue that it's even borderline power-leveling)

In this case, you cannot run multiple instances of Mabinogi on one machine which is presumably by design. Therefore bypassing that is tantamount to accomplishing something you would otherwise not be able to do

But I digress: I don't think cousinogi is artificial at all. It's a byproduct of trying to get ahead and bypassing the intent of the game's mechanics, regardless of whether or not we as players do not like said mechanics

EDIT: just for transparency's sake, I'm also not a fan of not being able to assist friends or other players once hitting the cap

[halcyon creek]

Welp I can't help it....(rant start)

Perhaps "cousinogi" is a really problem that stirred Nexon into pushing out this update.
But why restrict the player base more?
Like mentioned above, "fear of missing out" is a big problem that's ripped apart groups.

To illustrate the point of how isolated the player base is take my situation for example.

Currently I run basic crom and glen with 2 other guildmates.
One mate runs normal/ vhm difficulty with another established party from alliance, yet could still join us cause there were two separate limits.
I could try push my runs to normal; However, I can't ask my guildmate to drop out from established normal /vhm runs.

This puts me in a difficult spot.

Think everyone knows just how much more important having a full party is for taking on more difficult content! Means I gotta recruit for my own set of regulars to take on normal difficulty. BUT! There are few that would want to leave their established groups (basically asking drop the effectiveness of their group!)

Okay. So gotta recruit someone new for basic? Not quite. The guildmates/ friends I would have recruited have quit mabi.

So I'm left to continue running basic with a smaller party now.
Once we're geared up we can only wait around for a party to get an opening that would take 2.

Maybe if slowly progress enough we'll eventually funnel into Bri and meet new faces?

I dunnno.
I tried but recent changes really have discouraged anyone from venturing out routine groups if they had any.

Thou suppose we do agree on this; this updated really isn't a quality of life improvement in a socializing context.
=/

[ocean hinge]

I don't really agree with that assertion; it just seems like stretching really far to fit squares in a circle hole, personally. As far as I know, this seems to be the common understanding (no 3rd party software, multiple PCs okay), and this is where it has been since 2023, so any further changes or clarifications would have to come from Nexon making an update. I'll leave that to that as it's beyond the two of us.

You're free to look up the related parts of the ToS yourself, located at https://www.nexon.com/main/en/legal/tou, under Code of Conduct.

The issue is that multiple accounts is not explicitly banned outright in the ToS; harmful 3rd Party Programs are. You can even get away from the subject of multi-clienting, and instead observe that you're allowed to make multiple accounts so long as you observe the limits in the ToS and you can still mail and send items back and forth between those accounts. There will always be some players who fit your description, as they simply want to get ahead, but much like any outbreak of behaviors, the majority that engages in it does so because they feel pressed to.

If the drop rates were more reasonable, the in-game economy wasn't inflated by artificial scarcity, runs weren't so limited and players felt like they could achieve their goals reasonably on a single account, they by-and-large would. Cousinogi would then largely be a small minority, not a huge issue demanding explicit attention in the form of account-wide run limits.

Ironically, Nexon's news update on Multi-Clienting from 2023 has an excerpt that agrees with this sentiment, whereby they acknowledge that restrictive currency in events and low rates encourage players to engage in cousinogi. Personally, I feel like the lessons learned in that time are sometimes forgotten, and relevant to the topic at hand, contributes to the halving of available runs for players in content with already exasperatingly low drop rates for desired items.

[rugged ivy]

Completely valid (one could even say that the TOS seems to be purposefully ambiguous about it 👀), but I agree that it's really up to the discretion of the viewer until someone from Nexon can definitively confirm (which would be nice). I personally just err on the side of caution because even if it seems like a stretch, it still fits the definition(s) outlined in the TOS

In any case, I completely understand why players do it, especially when we all know that the changes rolled out tend to omit the state of the NA server with our significantly smaller playerbase, limitations, etc. I'm mostly just mentioning it as an FYI on why Nexon may be hesitant to roll back limits as a whole, so it's worthwhile to acknowledge it and propose solutions/ideas that also consider it to make it as painless as possible (compromise where we can) for both parties

In the case of a proposal to reinstate previous functionality (no rewards for someone who is already capped), Nexon would subsequently reintroduce another means of cousinogi which for sure they would not be a fan of, so I can completely see them not being in favour of such a change

The only thing I could think of would be reinstating the previous functionality (able to enter and not receive rewards) with the addition that the player who has reached their cap needs to use a Key. In this way, it makes it much harder for bad actors to abuse the system without incurring a penalty in some shape or form. Obviously this is by no means ideal, especially when the capped player wouldn't receive rewards and are otherwise "wasting" a key but I honestly can't think of another way that retains the cousinogi barrier + benefiting players to help friends/guildies

[azure needle]

Wow I didn't realize they slammed the run limits back together. That's garbage.

Doing this change BEFORE giving us Hard Techs back is insulting. Just less content to run...

[umbral beacon]

The thing with this though is its not stopping that from happening as is, anyone who goes to the runs is always met with several alt farms going through Glenn and Crom anyway. So its not stopping that from happening. So all you are doing is destroying experiences for actual players/losing players and their income. Just to try to stop it on the surface in a way thats not even preventing it. It’d be better for them to pursue a method for the long term health of the game than keep up that ineffective show of trying to fight that. Them instating ways for those to get help does far more good for everyone on the grand scale.

[errant crane]

Agreed. Let us run past the limit with new players and friends. Players like myself are willing to help players learn, but if we can't run past the point we cap on rewards it really limits how much we can benefit the community at large.

We said this and you got the feedback when you did it to Tech Duinn. We said this when New Rise came out and restricted runs in Glenn and Crom. We're saying it now. We don't care about the reward limit, we care about the run cap.

https://klipy.com/gifs/how-many-times-do-we-have-to-teach-you-this-lesson-old-man-hi-there-young-people

[brittle steppe]

They probably (definitely) forgot to update that pinned post tbh
There's been quite a lot of suggestions that made it through since then. Like the "make extra equip slots free / permanent" post I suggested a while back.
This one: https://discord.com/channels/278742874097582081/1258142252979720242
I'm not sure this one was already planned then since that's more money they'd lose (someone in the thread even said they'd scroll past this)-
And then there's this one: https://discord.com/channels/278742874097582081/1386751245569495070

Surprisingly tho, neither of these had the Mabi symbol on it, the symbol meaning they forwarded it on to Nexon. So now I'm confused. But I'm definitely not complaining. Maybe it was something they planned after all, or they saw and forgot to give it the reaction lol

And yeah.. but at the very least, Basic difficulty got its stuff back and its gold reward boosted.

Regardless tho, we all wanna run past the cap with people who need to be carried and who need help and who need practice and etc etc-
Heck, I'm one of those people for now (who need to be carried and need help) but eventually I'm going to soar. And I'll be the one helping others. :3
But I won't be able to do that if this doesn't change.

[azure needle]

What I hate about recombining the Basic/Normal run split after we've already gotten to enjoy the split is:

1. I am tired of the whiplash. This happened with Arcana Achievement too. The game doesn't even spend a whole year on one concept before replacing it with something else.

2. There is zero chance I can solo Crom Normal, but I can easily solo Basic. Now I feel like I have to hold off until Wednesdays to do any Basic runs because MAYBE I can get a group together during the week to do Normal runs, but they probably won't have time for 10, but I don't know exactly how many. I don't wanna miss out on any runs, so now instead of soloing my 10 Basics for the week ASAP, I have to hold off to see exactly how many extras I'll have.

Unironically the WORST update change I've ever experienced playing this game. There is nothing redeemable about this. This is trash. I want to use worse words but I am not allowed. This is pure garbage. This needs fixed. Just lower the gold drops again and separate the runs again. Nobody asked for this.

[ashen jungle]

WHO THOUGHT THIS WAS A GOOD IDEA

[low belfry]

Indeed since its more of a Loss of quality than a quality of life since we're either stuck helping newbies for limits and unable to uptake to do harder difficulty for mats and better possibility of better enchants only thing we can hope they change it back although i am not sure if OTHER versions (Jp,Kr) have this LoQ of a end game content update

[torn totem]

For context, I'd be doing Crom Basic by now. Instead, I'm sitting around AFKing in dunby twiddling my thumbs because I'm waiting for my group to run crom 100s and glenn vhms over the weekend. Indeed, I love logging into Mabi just to do nothing. This is apparently the true endgame.

I'm a cosplayer, but I want to do things other than stand around too, JSYK.

[twin tundra]

I kind of liked when the limits were character based and not account wide. As I mentioned above I went out of my way to make and gear two different characters on the SAME account.

Nexon gave me all these character cards/slots, why shouldn't I get to use them. I put in the time and effort. I used the game as intended. This wasn't cousinogi in any sense, like seeing 8 similarly named characters sitting at Alby alter. I was playing 3 separate characters each with their on drops, rewards, and gear progression.

It was nice to have flexibility when a friend approached needing a hand and I had options. Also because my alts were no where near my main's power I tended to match power and no one felt like they were being carried.

In my time with 3 different characters I don't think rewards had any meaniningful effect on any character. Since I was actively gearing all 3 most rewards went to gearing them or friends. Even if I pooled my rewards, nothing was really strengthing my main and instead I was offering drops to the friends I wanted to gear for harder content.

[willow rapids]

Every change nexon initial makes has been horrible and we always get a fix 6 months to a year later. Limiting runs should never be an option

[cunning stream]

I have to say, I'm really getting tired of Nexon using the player economy as an excuse for poor decision making.

Although I was never one of the types to do all of my Crom Bas and Glenn Bearna runs in a week's time due to lack of strength or care to dedicate the time, I still echo the sentiment of those here that lament now having to pick and choose who gets their help for the week. That, in of itself, is an unfortunate problem, and what Nexon believes is going to help the multiclienting/multiaccounting issue isn't helping.

In fact, this update encourages quite the opposite. Currently, if players want to keep helping others with the content, they either need additional key passes (which are not reasonably obtainable) or another character that is powerful enough to do the content. I'm not aware if these run limits are account wide, but you know what is limited account wide? Neartite. There's more incentive now to create an alternate account than there was before between the use of additional Neartite, wanting to continue helping others in content, and simply wanting to make more gold.

Nexon honestly needs to accept that multiclienting/multiaccounting isn't an issue they're ever going to be able to fully defeat. The best thing they could do would be to change up reward distribution in a way that assures players that multiple characters aren't needed to make any form of substantial progress, whether that be materially or financially. Previous Bankroll events' "Maximum chests regardless of party size" buff felt like a fantastic, albeit not perfect, solution to this, and yet they've abandoned that concept and never brought it back.

The fact that they're trying so hard to defend the player economy in the first place is baffling to me. The player economy is already insufferably bad both here and in KR, and so far, changes like these and the increasingly strict trade limitations on new items aren't helping it. If they want to make a real dent in protecting the economy and making it healthier for players, then they need to address other issues that are more feasible to tackle than the behavior of a minority of players that cannot reasonably be stopped without harming the entire playerbase at large. Increase the drop rates of materials to improve overall player accessibility, address the MASSIVE issue that is properly gearing up a bard in particular because becoming a 'good' bard for content like Bri Leith is a financial nightmare, either ease up or remove trade restrictions on 'Dungeon Loot' type items entirely; they're not needed when there's already an incentive to craft gear for the best possible grade bonus in the first place.

The BEST way to fight against multiclienting/multiaccounting and help the player economy at the same time is increasing accessibility, not restricting it. More accessibility will NOT hurt anyone (Except the elites trying to scam people, I guess). Restrictive changes like these only hurt everyone EXCEPT for the very same people those changes are trying to stop. They aren't being deterred by these changes. They're only being encouraged to keep doing it because it's just not worth it to only play on one account anymore.

[errant crane]

Also - for anyone at Nexon about to pull out run statistics, give us the math on how this is a better experience and leads to less abuse cases or how the amount of gold earned didn't change overall or something like that... The numbers don't matter. The principle matters. The bottom line is we don't like when you lock us out of the dungeon when we hit the reward limit and we dislike when you give us a reason to stop helping or running with other players, especially new players.

[icy cradle]

Nexon before making changes nobody wanted:

"tHis wiLL cOMbAt mulTiCliEntiNg anD FiX tHe gAMe'S EcONomY!"

Hot take from me - there will be no economy to fix when nobody plays your game, except for whales who had invested too much into the game. Even them would move on when there is nobody else to play with them in the game.

[azure needle]

I don't understand why they keep making updates to supposedly combat people playing on multiple accounts, but they refuse to make playing on multiple accounts actually against the rules.

Hell, I didn't used to play multiple accounts, but all these updates make me play on my new alts MORE OFTEN because I run out of runs. I don't multi-client, but surely I shouldn't be incentivized to play 3 different accounts like this...

And why not just give VIP more run limits? Surely these botters aren't paying for 8 VIP subscriptions.

[pseudo marlin]

The idea that run limits stop multiclienters is always really funny, because if someone was capable of soloing crom normals with 3 cousins in tow, they are still doing that. Nothing they did is stopping them from doing that.
Same with glenns, if they have a buddy who can solo a side and they can solo a side and they can duo the boss. There was and is nothing stopping them from still going that with their 3 extra pc's if they wanted to.

This literally ONLY hurts actual casual players, and people with friends lol. I used to join basics all the time to help people!! Guess who can't do that anymore!!!! It drives me kinda nuts. I have been raising extra characters for the express purpose of making sure I always have runs I can do with people since I have plenty of friends who ask me if I have ran my croms/glenns and the answer is ALWAYS 'yea, I am capped sorry', and it just feels bad. I wanna help people. I wanna play massively online multiplayer video games with other humans. Kind of a big ask I know but like, come on. lol

[silk heart]

If you want to enjoy content together without run limits, consider the humble hot air balloon. Run limits make sense for progression content. You don't always have to be doing progression content. It is bad for the game if you are always doing progression content.

[eager mason]

Except it feels like non 'combat progression' content just isn't encouraged anymore. Other people have said it before and better, but the 'fantasy life' just got left behind. The focus is plainly on dungeons and the gear grind. I actually agree that it can become a bad thing if all players are doing is progression, but that means a focus needs to return to non-progression activities - not making progression content worse to do.

[umbral beacon]

We dont always have to be doing progression content no, but that doesnt address those getting left behind in guilds when its literally the higher ups job to try to help them and we’re being made unable too. They need to get their progress as much as anyone else. Also theres literally no rewards for hot air ballooning.

[floral cloak]

Wait till people learn that rafting and hot air balloons have almost exactly the thing as refined temptation 🤫

[silk heart]

If someone can't contribute a group beating Crom Basic, they shouldn't get the rewards from Crom Basic. The AHMs and Tech Duinns that drop the gear they need are not run limited. If they can beat Crom Basic, the rewards are better than ever. They will survive without being carried.

[azure needle]

Yeah honestly I don't get why they don't do something like how field raids calculate contribution. Make heals and damage both count for points and do a point threshold instead of just a "time in combat" checkbox.

[chilly meadow]

Because numbers in this game a SO disparate that placing them in an easy list will likely make many players feel hopeless.

For example, I'm by no means a newbie. I have decent enough gear, maxed out arcana, etc...

Yet when someone else is doing desert dragon with me? I struggle to get 5% of the damage that the 'good' people get.

Just think of how a player will feel when they get a popup at the end of a dungeon that says "LOL, U DID 0.03% OF THE TOTAL DAMAGE"

[devout wing]

I’d say this is true with the exception of commerce. Though commerce’s supply of reforges means it is arguably a combat progression source.

As it stands, airship is the single best designed content in the game. It is relatively easy to learn, provides a combination of socialization and content, and allows all players regardless of skill level to contribute

It is a shame it is barred behind either purchasing a 5M seasonal ducat airship or being online when someone you know who has a 5M seasonal ducat airship decides to make a run

Anyway, I agree. Change run limits to reward limits. That’s another thing to point out with airship. Airship has weekly reward limits, not weekly run limits

[silk heart]

An important part of the game is that being good is better than being bad. Part of why airshipping is so good is that the Dragons are not easy. Beating it is rewarding and losing to it is punishing. And anyone can contribute with cheap ballista bolts!

[chilly meadow]

Being good is better than being bad, yes.

But on an airship?

What really matters up there?

It's pretty much "Do you have fast guns, preferably with WOTG and spirit that makes it not need reload?"

[devout wing]

Ballistas do more than guns so if you aren’t good on guns, you can take ballistas. And with 2 ballistas and the rest of the players on guns, you don’t even necessarily need spirit guns

And the penalty to losing to dragon isn’t even that high, anyway

[hoary lion]

This also hot air ballooning just isn’t fun

[rugged ivy]

I'm not sure if folks may not be understanding how limits are impacting multiclienters but in case it has to be said: yes, limits impact them. If by the definition of limits a player can only run the content 10 times, then they can only run the content 10 times. To say that this does not impact them is nonsensical: the alternative is that they can run as many times as they want to-- how is that not impacting them? It doesn't matter how many alts they have in their party: their main account can only cousinogi 10 times. Does this prevent it from happening at all? Absolutely not, nobody is making that case, but to say that it does not have any impact on them is inaccurate

With that said, I feel like I need to clear the air here as a result of my mention to multiclienting/cousinogi because it seems like a number of comments appear to be getting hung up on the notion that this change was to address that. So to clarify: my post was to point out that removing the limits will make it easier for multiclienters to farm more. It was not a factual statement that limits were introduced to address multiclienting/cousinogi as a whole (unless they stated this somewhere that I'm missing). This would just be an unavoidable byproduct of removing the limits (should that happen)

Whether that should or shouldn't happen is completely up to debate, but to reiterate on what I had mentioned before: if you're going to propose the walk-back/reversion of a feature, it is vital to consider all of the impacts of doing so and proposing something that is digestible for all parties (Nexon included)

TL;DR - I was saying multiclienting/cousinogi would benefit from removal of limits. I was not saying that addition of limits was to address it directly (no way to tell). In proposing that it be removed without considering this, Nexon may not be in favour of such an action as a result

[devout wing]

Everyone would benefit from it. I’d argue multiclienters would receive less benefit than others, though, simply because run limits can be handled by simply making more accounts and multiclienting them, as well

[silent meadow]

I dont have anything to add that hasnt already been said but I will offer my personal anecdote.

Our guild, prior to New Rise, offeree multiple chances for run clears through the week from content. Specifically Glenn as it is arguably at the time the most prudent for frostflame which equals forward progression for Arcana.

Sticking to Glenn as the example, we offered both Normals and Hards. After the change of New Rise, we noticed that our now Basics had to be grouped. I have to now use my other account to run Basics with people in order to make sure everyone is getting clears. Same with another long standing member.

Normals/primevals became harder to pin down and be as open schedule wise.

Then, these recent changes put the nail in the coffin on our basics. We no longer offer basics. If the members show, they get Normals/Primevals.

Our members get clears anyways but people are getting excluded due to timezones rather than playability or success. Its rather unfortunate.

Before New Rise, everyone was cared for. Now, we can only care for those that show up at the time we run it, and only IF we have enough power hitters to run carries.

Its awful now.

This needs to change desperately.

Being allowed in without chest rewards was goated. Thats fine. Lets go back to that.

[steel basalt]

The limits are stupid but I'm glad they are opening up progression. However, using the "economy" to timegate is getting stupid and the harder they squeeze the worse the game feels. If they truly cared about the economy they would not put run limits, improve drop rates, create non mandatory chase min max items (these are untradable and are for added power to the character) for players to grind like hell for. Otherwise they need to stop helping new players "catch up" because they are giving out full equipment this takes away from the "economy" and integrity of the game, remove blaanid as it hurts the "economy" and the integrity of the game, remove required quest (tutorial) because it hurts the economy and the integrity of the game. Even at these supposedly good rates they could give us unlimited runs just put a limit on how much gold you make and remove equipment durability. Rather than limiting content.

The non mandatory chase things would be something like that basically it's not needed but helps you out to make things easier so you could go the entire game without it and still progress. Like let's say I defeat the succubus queen and it drops a figure with benefits. random bad example "mp stam, HP regen 1k%" if I defeat temptations it would be a figure for 4k% they stack so it would be 5k%. This isn't necessary but it would be nice to have.

[silk heart]

One or two of these ideas seem decent. What is a "non-mandatory chase min max item"? Stuff like soul liberator weapons, Irusan's Bell, stat wings, that kind of thing?

[cunning stream]

They gave an example of what they meant. Read their message again.

[silk heart]

@cunning stream there's a little grey "(edited)" at the end of their post because they didn't give an example at first.

@steel basalt You specified that you want "non-mandatory chase things" that are "not needed," an item that "isn't necessary but it would be nice to have." Do you think that doesn't apply to Soul Liberator weapons, Irusan's Bell and stat wings? Or do you think the game needs to add new categories of stackable totems?

Otherwise, your feedback is barely on topic. Blaanid's and Required do not hurt the economy or integrity of the game or have anything to do with run limits, and if you want to argue this, tell me about the items they devalue by adding them to the economy. Be specific!

If you think that run limits hurt the economy, that's certainly a thing that a person can believe, but I think the opposite is true. I think this because unlimited reward for progression content concentrates resources in the hands of players that spend the most hours per week playing the game. I want those players to slightly stronger than casual players, not greatly stronger. Why do you think that removing run limits would help the economy, and specifically who do you think it would help?

And what in the world are you saying about equipment durability? Maybe you need to make your own thread.

Re: run limits vs reward limits, I'm suspicious of everyone chiming in with their urgent demands to run Glenn unlimited times per week because they're all Chad Noobcarrier and the community won't survive without them. That said, there are real issues coordinating 8 players together in our limited playerbase, so I support giving players the option to run without rewards.

[cunning stream]

My mistake, I missed that.

[umbral beacon]

Thats the whole point of the thread you finally stumbled onto. Coordinating that amount of people in the small pool of people running is already difficult. Equate that to a smaller guild that only has the numbers for one full group, and you end up with 3-4 people missing their runs because of active hours not matching or etc. leaving the ones in the guild who would be helping them to no longer have the ability to do so. The issue is people being left without options to get help outside trying to pug and pugs in any content that requires coordination is miserable. Especially in Mabi. Reward limits over run limits is just the better option if we need it at all. Cause even with the limits its not like its stopped alt runners. I see the same groups of alts at Glenn and Crom every week still. All its doing is punishing the actual playerbase and damaging it for very little gain.

[steel basalt]

I'm not good at explaining or giving very good details about what I'm trying to say but effectively I was saying that Nexon using the "economy" as an excuse to timegate progression with run limits and that putting limits only hurts players and the ability to help other players since people will pick and choose who they play with so It turns the game from "hey buddy how are you doing" to "loads shotgun get off my lawn". The economy will adapt, it has adapted, and will continue to function just fine without run limits. Plus removing limits will help new players since the resources will be easy to buy so they can run end game content with the older players and if they want to self progress they can farm the materials themselves without having to wait x number of weeks(years) due to run limits.

Although again probably not explaining everything properly.

Also for non mandatory vs mandatory I base it off progression to the next tier of content for normal difficulty. The non mandatory is to give people something they don't need for running "normal" difficulty to work towards while allowing progression to not be gated. As for Soul liberator it is mandatory because let's say they release the "super mega pounder" weapon series and to enter the "normal" (the content that holds all of the progression materials) you need the soul liberator series. As for like the wings and bell until they make "normal" content that requires it I'd consider those as non mandatory.

[hoary lion]

People who actually play the game and grind should be stronger than those who don’t. That’s kinda the entire point of running content. If you don’t get better gear why bother?

[silk heart]

You shouldn't bother. There should be a weekly limit on the amount of gold you earn. When you hit it, you should rent a farm in Tailteann or enter a jousting competition or log off. No-lifing does need to be a treadmill with no end and no speed limit.

[azure needle]

...What? You want to put a limit on GOLD EARNED per week?

Worst take I have ever heard. What's the proposed limit? Does that now become the most gold you can sell something for? If so you're now saying absolutely every item in the game should be earnable off a week of work. Soul Liberator weapons? Yeah, 1 week or grinding.

If that's not what you're saying, and AH gold doesn't affect the limit, only good drops, then this doesn't matter. The main source of income for anyone is legacy gold changing hands by trading rare items, not picking up floor gold or cashing checks from runs. Checks are a small fraction of my income and I'm poor compared to endgamers.

[blazing forge]

This is actually the worst take I've ever seen. I'm not trying to have Mabi be like a worthless mobile gacha game where I log on for my dailies for 15 minutes a day then turn it off.

[hoary lion]

You keep on suggesting content that is outdated and not fun. I’m not trying to one shot wyverns in a hot air balloon or water crops once a day or something. Also limiting gold sounds like a horrendous idea.

[icy cradle]

For someone who is devastatingly intelligent, you have some really bad takes. Perhaps reconsider your train of thoughts lol.

[cunning stream]

Given that they were responding to somebody about content, I think what they meant was there should be a limit on the amount of gold you earn from content (such as Crom/Glenn/Etc.) via the form of our current weekly run limits because they agree with them (for some reason). If this is what they meant, I can't say I blame anyone for misunderstanding, as the choice of wording was poor.

I completely agree that their takes have been bad though. Suggesting old content that isn't rewarding due to how severely outdated it is feels like trolling.

[willow rapids]

any way you try to explain it is still a bad take. any limit on the amount of gold you make is just stupid

[rugged ivy]

Completely depends on the context and desired outcome. I don't think it's necessarily "stupid"

I can't speak for Ulia, but to me if the intent is to redistribute the methods of gold making in a way to incentivize doing something that isn't solely grinding dungeons like Crom/Glenn/etc, then I don't find that stupid at all imo

I would say that it would be controversial at the most because while it may be well intended to have players explore other avenues/areas of the game, it also removes the autonomy of players to do what they want to do-- if someone wants to put several hours into grinding Combat because that is fun to them, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to. Similarly, if someone wants to pump several hours into farming because that is fun to them, who are any of us to judge?

[floral cloak]

I feel we should lighten up on the Bad take back and forth and more engage on talking about ideas before this devolves to locked thread status.

[lavish eagle]

Ultimately, this is about player freedom and agency, and the restrictions that have been tightening upon us.

As mentioned, being able to keep running content without the promise for rewards was a part of Mabi for a good long time. A culture was built around it, people who were willing to sacrifice time for others for whatever selfless reason*. It helped give a stronger sense of community when we were able to do so.

Now that we've lost that, it feels like one more little slice of Mabinogi's identity has been cut away in favor of whatever direction the entry restrictions lead down.

*Of course cousinogi people did it selfishly, but this is about the normal playerbase