High Flier Event a Slap to the Face of all the hours of work of previous players?

[dreamy socket]

Free stuff is nice, some people feel awful that they never needed to play the game to begin with to get their stuff cuz it was given for free without compensation for the time they invested.

Thoughts?

edit: I greatly appreciate everyone who is politely engaging in discourse and sharing their thoughts and ideas below. To start, I want to emphasize that I am representing the thoughts of others who hold the positions from above. These are not my personal thoughts. Second, this thread has evolved. I am getting the feeling that some people are clicking in here, reading the bit above, and responding to this prompt. It may be worth reading the entire thread here(as much of a slog as it is to do so) as there are people who both share your sentiments, regardless of your perspective. Final note: This has nothing to do with people feelign newbies should not catch up. This has everything to do with veterans feeling their time was wasted because they could have waited for events like this. Please read below to get detailed perspectives from the players with various points of view. Thanks.

[novel nebula]

?
What compensation do we need? We chose to slog through the terrible gameplay while knowing it was a terrible experience, am i missing something? Why do we need compensation?

[crimson fog]

The game has been a several year long grind of content coming out to cover more and more old content, I don't mind that new players can get caught up like this. Joining a decade old mmo and expecting to catch up to everyone is always bad I think. I don't really need anyone else to have to go through stardust grind or anything like that just because I did

[fair flume]

This is the mentality of "Because I had a tough childhood the next generation/the world owes me." Which is silly imo. The game could not keep going, forcing players to spend years playing catchup while nexon continues to power creep the world. Things had to change at some point. You played the game and (hopefully) enjoyed your time here. If you had known that this would be a thing 7 years ago, or whenever you started playing, would you have quit and waited for the flyhigh event to even start?

[tidal basin]

Yeah I disagree with this mindset. Just because veterans and other players who played before the changes had to slog through a swamp doesn't mean newer players should.

We are pretty much built different. And while I understand the bitterness, we have to also understand that this is a good change for Mabi. It can't always stay the same, it can't always be a slog. It's gotta change with the times. And let's face it—some early things in Mabinogi SUCKED HARD.

So I for one am glad we're going in this direction.

[wild granite]

they should give us some og badges or something similar for compensation😤

[near folio]

I'm also against the crabs in a bucket mentality. New players deserve to be able to enjoy the game and progress without spending years trying to catch up.

[dreamy socket]

To clarify:

I am echoing grumblings I hear through the grapevine.

Their feedback is that they feel their time wasnt respected.

I am not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with any stance. However, I am interested in how their feedback would be challenged in public forum. This seemed to be the right place to post.

Generously, the view is that we all chose to grind, and then that grind is met with releases that could have rendered their time more free for other things. They would have had fun playing upper content and doing more damage with gear they aspired and achieved in acquiring. However the devs release a thing that rendered that effort with lesser value.

Npc cos player pointed out that we all signed up for the grind, and I agree.

Though, my personal take is I enjoy feeling some resistance and feeling the "yes I did it" after doing something that took effort and elbow grease and being rewarded for it. Thats me.

I also am one to take advantage of opportunity given by the developers. So that's no stranger to me.

I am not as much heated as others are.

So hearing everyone's thoughts has been great. Getting to know how everyone feels about this has been awesome.

I suppose, if I was one of those players with the feedback I posted about and just elaborated on, I think the sentiment is this;

Perhaps its less about allowing new players the ability to close the gap, and more about the existing players time also being valued. Thats the most generous outlook I can think of. Its not a slam on the newbie or returnee. It is the time they invested not being seen.

Appreciate everyone's input so far.

P.s. thank you the few of you who understood this wasnt me asking. Not all heros wear capes. 🫡

[fickle rock]

My time was valued cause I made mad bank doing content before it was accessible. My time was valued because I got to have the experience of clearing for the first time with my friends after so much turmoil. My time was valued because, after all of that, I thought "this is really fun, and it sucks that it takes so much work to get here. I want everyone to experience this feeling and be able to play with them."

I don't think the solution to pushing players to endgame is an event like this by any means- I think skipping the entire grind kinda loses out on the fun. I'm entirely for making that grind easier, though. I just wish instead of events they work rework the dogwater system in the first place. "Only play during master plan/high flier or else you're throwing" Is a tough pill to swallow for newbies.

[dreamy socket]

A separate discussion entirely but can affect perception on the topic we are on:

I dont disagree with cutting down on all the requirements. In fact, training skills has been cut down considerably, and not only training got easier but we got free rank 9 skills through Blaanid.

Its good changes I think and I know that many who hold the sentiments that I have mentioned in the OG post and again in my clarification above agree with me on that.

However, the emotions you express about experiencing the value you get out of accomplishing content early, and accomplishing things that are difficult with friends will be different for others. Anyone who gets that value from hard work, plays a game that is no longer hard work, will not experience the emotions you describe within the content you have experienced thus far. From training your skills, renown, Stardust, to gear acquisition, they are, with New Rise included, never going to feel the way you do.

So on principle, its great that new friends can play and get caught up, but we can not expect that the emotional value will weigh the same when the barrier has been severally reduced for entry into acquisition, training, and content.

So to be consistent, I think its valid that you experienced those emotions, but I think its better to voice that you desire others to have a chance to experience that, without the expectation that they are.

If its too easy, people quit. If its too hard people quit, or people get bitter when its made easier.

At least the people I am hearing the gripes from, also want newbies to pick it all up faster and get caught up, however, they want value and to be valued as well.

A balance needs to get struck and I think those who are having a hard time with swallowing this pill are thinking this wasnt the answer to the issues. As you mentioned, High Flier and Masterplan being the only times to play is a dog water mentality, just as much as it is dog water to think newbies cant enjoy the game.

Balance, and respectable game play, that's what we all want.

---

Now, I am fully aware this is Nexon trying to make all servers equal before UE5. KR has high Flier right now as we speak, right?

That makes it obvious.

[fickle rock]

I just want a general evolution of content over skipping it altogether. I agree that although I felt that satisfaction, newer players don't have to and that's a valid way to play too.

I think stardust should be multiplayer, I think skills should become a little more difficult to train, sans astro which should become easier. I think Glenn vhm/crom didn't need the insane nerf on boss with the debuff timer changes. I think the bond requirement for spirits should be removed entirely as it's the single most annoying thing about levelling spirits. I think the rate for metallurgy giving gems should just be increased by x3-x5 and they should stop trying to make gems event only when we have a whole skill in the game. I think arcana should just be lowered to 10k, as discussed in our other thread prior. I think the price to put in smoldering/frostflames should be cut in half, too.

I think all of this could be done without an insane boost event that gives everything for free. Let people still experience the game. Who is this for? It feels like the answer is alts.

[dreamy socket]

I think this is the meat and potatoes of why I posted this on behest of others gripes.

High Flier is a bandaid. Everything you mentioned here is the feedback.

[restive latch]

My personal experience is that I had fun with the systems back in the day when they were new and overall enjoyed the gameplay experience as each new feature was added.

Other players, newer players in particular, have already missed out on that 'progressive experience' and are now bombarded with feature after feature upon entering the world.
This event is like a double rainbow but in 'forced tutorial' format.

However, this event was absolutely designed by a Veteran Player who seems to have no idea how genuinely overwhelming this event is for a new player.
Hell, even I am having issues keeping track of what's going on and all these little bits and pieces of the event. There's just WAY too many events going on right now.

This event is less for new and returning players and more for existing Veterans who want to grind up a dozen alts. I'd even be so direct to say those players are benefitting the most from this event, and the most vocal players who dislike the event are also veterans who had already worked on their half-dozen alts.

TL;DR

• Returnees are being drawn back in which I think is good.
• However, too many Events going on.
  • The UI is a nightmare and things are hidden in weird places.
• Flying High feels like a Veteran Player's idea of a "good event" and not a Newbie's idea of a "good event"
  -# Btw people complained about Blaanid when she boosted Newbies to Total 5k for free. We had the luxury of years. They do not. Let them catch up.

[dreamy socket]

I haven't considered this perspective.

My only other comment for your book end, and again, to give the most generous perspective by those who have gripes around me, is that:

They want new players to catch up. They just want their time valued too.

I think thats the simplest way it could be stated.

Flying High is the early game and midgame player's paradise that doesnt necessarily grant much for the existing decorated players. Some feel hollow with the fact that they didn't have to sink days or hours. Like the time didn't matter. It has less to do with newbies getting the leg up. Its about their time.

Edited final paragraph.

[restive latch]

I can't say we'd see eye to eye in regards how our time should be 'valued', though I respect and understand where you're coming from.
In my mind, 'time' is what we willingly spent in exchange for the years of fun and enjoyment that we received.
-# If I valued my time higher than the joy I received from playing this game, I would put the game down.

Where I do agree with is the part of it "feeling hollow", cuz there's a reason Mabi was popular when "early game" was 100% of the game.

The event takes away/changes such a fundamental experience for players that on both sides it just looks and feels kinda wrong and empty.
Edit: Hollow really is the right word actually.

[dreamy socket]

Just a reminder, these arent my thoughts. While I playing devil's advocate for the people who do have gripes, I personally do not disagree with your definition and application of value.

[idle crystal]

Personally I'm not looking forward to having to tell any returnees/new players (after this event ends) earnestly looking for progression to wait for this event return in half a year, because that would honestly be the best way forward for people like them

I do hope that anyone actively playing right now actually makes use of it though

---

I kind of liked the longer grinds and am a little sad to see them go like this, and they have to remove even more eventually

---

Renown and a bunch of other grindy things are being removed in a few months so I wonder if the whole zooming level 40k and Level 50 Arcana + Free Link 10 will just be part of the base game in the future

[dreamy socket]

I recalled the now General Director saying(and this is strictly from other players) that his goal was to eliminate Masterplan events as he doesnt want them to be leaned on, because the regular gameplay should be just that good.

We arent there yet, and the game is basically on Masterplan mode the rest of the months out of the year with how easy it is to level things and rank things. Bar Arcana(time consuming) and bar Astrology, which could use the same grind reduction treatment.

[tidal basin]

Did he really say that tho? :0

That's an interesting goal for him to have if he said it.

[dreamy socket]

I can not readily find anything online about it. But it was something that I heard in 2023.

[near folio]

It should be that way

People shouldn't be encouraged to play like only 4 months in a year, if holidays are gonna have massive benefits it shouldnt be progression in the main major systems like stardust and skill training. Gear is fine or giving happy hour to dungeons, but major progression systems are the area where new players are gonna be spending most of their time when starting and they shouldn't be told "wait 3 months for the next master plan!". The introductory phase is the most important place to get right and they shouldn't be encouraged to put it off, because if they are they'll likely just go play something else and forget about mabinogi.

[amber beacon]

This is a very bad mindset, and a variation of the "sunken cost" fallacy.

It's especially bad when people relate this to the availability of paid-only content for free (like some people did when mounts were given for free the first time like 15 years ago).

It's a very toxic mentality of "If I had to waste money on this, you should too!", even though both the one who already spent money and the one who didn't, will benefit from this.

This is one of the main reason why we still have BS the gachas or reforges.
Those who spent thousands on them don't want it to be easier on those who didn't, and as such there isn't a huge, unified voice complaining about it.

The reforge system will change with NEXT, but somehow I fear it will change for the worst :/

[dreamy socket]

I dont think anyone really complains about the NX Cash items, or availability being free or cheaper. More access is great. Style tab should have been free a long time ago.

This has to do with;

• Skill training(Which had little to no p2w outside the Gach and Boxes, and most players hand grinded their skills mostly anyways)
• Stardust(No NX Availability to skirt this)
• Arcana Links(No NX methods available to Skirt this)

The sentiments shared in the OG post and again in the clarification I will link here #1393770733943001088 message

have little to do with monetary purchases from USD to NX Cash. Some of this has Gold implicated, but it is mostly about time.

Sunken Cost fallacy only works when the context is about justifying a purchase.

A sentiment that I will part with from someone is

• "I dont think I really want to play until they release another High Flier/Masterplan season because why am I working for this when they will release it all for free?"

The events implemented have made the efforts and systems that have already been reduced severely feel like the work you do for them is hollow, and even more hollow for those who put in even more work prior to the reduction of effort being implemented.

We arent wrestling with sunken cost. We are wrestling with people who wanna feel like they are doign something and thats how they have fun. Now that is taken away. So the time they spent, their fun, is gone. Its hollow now. And others have expressed similar feelings in this thread, rather, they arent nearly as upset about it as others.

The issue with these public forums is that while yes, we can air out our grievances and yes, everyone has an opinion, its never going to encapsulate everyone's thoughts. Most people here in these forums are willing to share, be social, and receive info from people. But that isnt everyone, and not everyone is willing to put their neck out in the open to get criticized either.

Its great to hear everyone's thoughts on this, but I dont agree that this is sunken cost at all. That doesnt represent the original, or clarified comments.

I already gave my personal stance too, but I'll reiterate.

• Value is what you put into something, If you had fun, then you got your value.
• I dabble in some of the sentiments that High Flier and Masterplans every 6 months on repeat is not the solution and should be phased out. The game should not revolve around people waiting for these events.
• I was recently blasted in the overseas-discussion when i voiced that not everyone has the time to dedicate to the game, in the context that there needs to be balance for those to enjoy the game regardless. As in, finding a way to respect the time a person has on the game to make it meaningful and still feel like the work was fulfilling. I ended up getting blasted with "Well, the more time you spend, the more rewarded you should get" and its interesting that perhaps those sentiments are changing in support of less time gets rewarded and that is being celebrated. So I am in favor of a little more collective consistency from the community as well. Are we for getting Masterplan out of here, and having people work a little more? Or are we for everything being given for free? And what do you think is healthy for the longevity for the game?

Ultimately, we arent going to hear everyone's voices on the matter because not everyone is willing to lend their voice for one reason or another. Thats why I posted this, on behest of those who wont, even if I dont agree 100% with where its coming from or 100% with the stance. As I think these player's feelings and commentary are useful, and should be allowed to challenge the current narrative that perhaps what is being done isnt bad... maybe its how it is employed is bad. That is what is not sitting well with some people.

[amber beacon]

The sunken cost fallacy doesn't only refer to monetary value, it refers to anything with any kind of value, such as human effort, and is perfectly valid in this case.

[dreamy socket]

Sunken Cost Fallacy under its most basic definition is where one makes a purchase(time, money, emotion) and will not abandon because they value that investment.

No one here is talking about keeping or remaining where we are. Rather, I think everyone agrees that changes to increase quality to the barrier of entry to content and fun in Mabs is a good thing. This already creates a hole in the Sunken Cost argument.

It is reasonable for anyone in the real world to feel shafted when they work a 9 to 5 for 50$ an hour, and then wake up one day to their pay getting cut to 20$ an hour. How would that make someone feel about the time they are investing?

So, the concept that someone has invested time, and just wants that time to have and hold value, whilst still seeing the changes made in order to catch up newbies isn't necessarily impossible, and quite a reasonable position to hold.

There is no Sunken Cost present because there is no commitment to "this is the way it needs to stay". Its just a hollow feeling people have in how the game is employing change, or the methods they employ to help players.

[rough depot]

I think Nexon should eliminate most events entirely except some kinds of christmas, halloween, etc. Events should be cosmetic and/or festive, not a method of progression

[tired junco]

The enjoyment is in the journey. We all enjoyed our journey up until this point, which is why we are still here.

New players have a different journey. That is just how aged MMOs work.

On that note, so many complaints I read in this server can be applied to every MMO. People don't really have a problem with Nexon, they have a problem with the entire MMO genre. Time gates, terrible drop rates, fast progression for new players, etc. are industry standard. Not to say you can't complain about them, but there's really no point. These are effective strategies for player retention and recruitment whether a vocal minority supports them or not.

[fickle rock]

No this isn't mmo design this is just a poorly designed event. Fast tracking progression doesn't have to be stuff given to you for free within a confusing event and being told don't play otherwise. If you read the thread the general sentiment is not "I don't want players to catch up".

The other issues are an entirely off topic discussion so I don't want to derail, but I will always be against such design choices simply because I find them anti fun. It doesn't matter whether our sentiments get ignored- I feel it's my responsibility as a veteran player to voice those concerns as a way to support my community. I feel it's my responsibility to tell nexon why people have enjoyed their game for years even if it falls on deaf ears.

It may be a useless effort, but hey, I've gotten some of my requests granted before. I feel like giving up is just doomerposting.

[swift orbit]

Not just that; but I'm been helping my friend grind the game and it is taking days of guiding with all of the event speeding this up. For all the veterans complaining about new players getting to their level, I want them to understand how long it would take for my friend to grind to my level so I could run tech with him.

[dreamy socket]

I dont think anyone in this thread is talking about new players catching up being an issue. Thats not the issue at hand.

[median marsh]

IMO the feelings that you described comes from an event design and game systems issue. I wonder if they would have the same opinions if they were able to benefit from this event (maybe to a lesser extent) as a veteran player compared to a brand new player.

For example, one of the big things about this event is the amount of RB pots available through the event shop to put them on a fast track to 40k. Currently in the game, there's no real reason to level past 40k as there's not too many uses for AP. What if the game rewarded players for leveling beyond 40k by having more uses for AP? They would still be able to buy the same amount of RB pots as a new player through the event shop but instead of using them to reach lv40k to hit max stats from shine of eweca, you would be using them to farm AP for this hypothetical system.

Another thing to note about the event rewards is that the value of some of these items change depend on how far you progressed in the system. For example, the Alban Knights Condensed Divine Fruit jumps your crusader level to 100. IMO it would be much better if it granted the same experience as going from level 1 -> 100, that way any prior experience farmed wouldn't lose meaning (unless you're capped at 225).

The stardust memory scroll should have been in the form of an event currency that you can spend on whatever stardust mats you need to progress that system. If you already maxed out the system, maybe the currency could also be used to buy event specific stardust appearances.

Thoughts?

[tired junco]

I agree with your stardust and crusader points.

I don't think adjustments to the 40k leveling stuff are needed. People fail to realize that to even take advantage of it you need to already be level 20k which is quite a bit of waiting even if you're getting 1k levels a day from arcana achievements

And who hates free AP? If you have 200k extra AP go have a blast in sidhe

[carmine skiff]

Honestly, agree. I find it hard to accept this event because of all the time spent playing the game the long way around. I like the idea of all the free pets and everything, but I'm resisting doing this event because accepting skill and system catch-ups just feels lousy.

I know some people are anxious to get caught up to current content - and that's okay - but it's not for me. It's not about re-capturing the feeling of playing this game a decade ago, it's about being rewarded for your efforts, and events like this don't do it for me

[tired junco]

there's nothing enjoyable about the current rank up system. Even without the event, ranking something to r1 takes like 5 minutes.

[dreamy socket]

I think there are a few people who want to see the game either become easier with a patch update, or to leave as is.

The main sentiment from people in this comment thread seems to indicate that playing Mabinogi only 4 months out of the year, 2 months in Summer, and 2 Months in winter for Masterplan and now, if High Flier is going to be a thing now, is unacceptable, and should do away with events like these since the game has gotten easier.

Instead, make Crusader training easier, and make Stardust easier. Skill training and Leveling is already easy. Except they need to make Scythe Skill training easier. Way easier to be in line with all the other talents.

This way, we all still work for it, but it palletable to the new player. And the new player isnt getting plagued with playing 2 months at a time for these kind of events.

But my personal take is this; If this event is to align servers, I will accept it. But if they continue ramming us with High Flier and Masterplans ongoing then I think you will start seeing a MASSIVE drop off when these events end. Its sad but its reality. People get bored when they hit the mid-end game. On average, people get sick of runnign Techs, Croms, and Glenns, and then now you add Bri Lieth which will be exciting to the average person for a couple months(the only saving grace for the rest of the year until Winter Masterplan) and then you get New Rise and 2 New Arcanas. But without that, historically, people return, try new arcanas, then dont touch the game until Masterplan or until Arcanas are released.

They need another approach.

They have been on the right path with easing requirements, they should just ease all the systems they have implemented thus far. And my 2 cents personally, and slight derail but in the same vain here... stop adding new systems like in New Rise. Its system on system on system on system on system.

[carmine skiff]

I agree. I see the slog at the end game, and I'm in no rush to get to it - especially when there's so much content where I'm at. I get that ranking skills is not a challenge now, but I think it's a different thing to make something easy vs award it to you automatically. You end up as a Mary Sue in the fantasy world you just joined. I mean, look at the generational questlines. It's nice that they got reworked and voiced, but it's also the fact that they're so easy it's just a walking simulator

I think you're right on the money with respect to systems. Too many systems can make it difficult to catch up and will inevitably result in events where you can skip maxing out the system. In which case, why not just cut the system and make the benefits baseline? I think if systems become too easy then it's merely a tedious exercise. And if one can expect regular events to skip a system, users will ignore it until they get the event again. It's a vicious cycle

[dusk ravine]

It's a catch-22. Hot take following:

Make it easier to rank skills and whatnot? People get to mid/end game faster and run out of content to do

Make it too hard to rank skills and whatnot? People get burned out and give up in early game

There's a very fine line where it's just right, but hitting that balance is incredibly difficult to do, especially when all of your resources are being pumped into endgame

I personally think it's fine to have various systems and avenues to improve, especially when it all contributes to overall player growth. It gives players numerous ways to progress and doesn't leave them without anything to do. Imo part of the problem is that your average player is constantly trying to bum rush through the game instead of taking their time with it to enjoy it to the fullest. Every time I see a new player, the first suggestion that is made is almost exclusively "do Blaanid to level faster and get Arcana."

To me, Mabinogi was built around the principle of doing what you feel like doing and not heavily favouring any particular aspect. I say was because at some point there was a paradigm shift where it started leaning heavily into the combat aspect: new weapons, new systems to improve your weapons, new dungeons, new raids, etc. This is all my personal take, but when you make it apparent that this is the core of the game, then everything else suffers and becomes an afterthought

When you reinforce the idea that this game is only worthwhile for combat related content, then your players adopt this way of thinking and therefore starve for content and their brains are wired to only think "unga bunga, me want more things to smash"

I would rather the dev team fleshed out the other various things that Mabinogi has to offer rather than putting all of their eggs in one basket

TL;DR

Making it easier makes getting to end game faster which can result in content starvation, boredom, and ultimately players losing interest. Conversely, making it harder makes getting to mid/end game longer and can lead to players losing interest. Why do players need to be at mid/end game to 'start having fun'?

Would rather larger emphasis on fleshing out other parts of Mabi outside of end game combat content, but might be too late if majority of vets just want unga bunga content

[fickle rock]

As a vet I absolutely want to see a level of content diversification. I don't think massive nerfs and buffs to content need to happen in such large swathes, we just need different content. I want to see a bunch of cosmetics or gear shoved into esoteric content like rafting and hot air ballooning. I want an ap shop to buy cosmetics from. I want commerce shop items to actually be updated.

I think if you add new niche gear and cosmetics to all these things on the regular, you wouldn't see people complaining about endgame content so much- because it wouldn't be the only thing worth doing in the game. If we did this, we wouldn't need to push players through a nonexistent beginning and midgame and ignore the literal decade of content that mabi has in favor of the last 3 years of dungeons. Very well put.

[mental dust]

I think some of you are missing the plot. The problem isn't disrespecting the vet player's time, it's that modern gamers in general do not have the patience for 200+ hours of unskippable, skill-locking story content, 'just to catch up'.

Mabi isn't just competing with other MMOs anymore. The advent of intense mobile gaming is eating away at the gaming market and tiktok/YT shorts are a major factor in the decline of attention. The world has already moved into a state of rapid entertainment consumption and without the renovation of skill training/reduction of story content, mabinogi won't survive. The devs in korea has done a phenomenal job at this so far.

My prediction for mabinogi's future is a second dungeon/SM where the length of dungeons are further reduced, not just in-game distance and smaller maps, but the time spent in one.

This has nothing to do with disrespecting vet players and the 'Old Grind' (2,500 Strong Enemy kills for R1 Windmill, anyone else remember Tir Na Nog grind?) but rather mabinogi must adapt to the way entertainment is consumed if it wants to keep being a thing. Our daily player count is peanuts compared to other popular games. It's no secret that our entire community is supported by a handful of whales that splurge on gachas.

We can see this trend even in new story content. Ninja, gunslinger, puppetry, etc. They all had a story to go with it. You help NPCs and deal with RP dungeons to earn skills one at a time. Arcanes started off like that, where quests were longer and involved more plot. In the latest iteration it's a short 4 step quest to unlock, and the secondary quests are entirely optional.

Like.. don't take it personally. The devs aren't doing it to slight you, me, or the other 2008 vets of this game. The point is that until they revamp the old content, giving new players a free skip + power boost is one of the least complex way to retain player engagement.

[dreamy socket]

This is a great summary.

However, I dont think anyone, even the sentiments of those whom I am representing( as these are not entirely my opinions at all), do not mind the catch up, do not mind the events rather, but its been with a lack of taste for them that there was not something other than a gross amount of rebirthing available for those veterans.

I dont think anyone, or myself disagrees with you. I dont think anyone disagrees with trimming the fluff. However, I think the initially reaction that some have had has a lot to do with where this sort of stuff is being implemented.

Like I said, I think there is a lot to be said for KR wanting all servers to be, so to speak, on the same page. High Flier can do that. High Flier can retain attention. But we also miss the point that people are not going to be sticking around after the events are gone. Is there soemthing to be said for having the game exist in a state where people will play it? And I think thats where some of the frustration comes from. Its a catch up without anything for the veteran to benefit other than rebirthing more, another pet or two, and thats about it. Its catching people up who wont play after they are caught up. Its playing for 2 months at a time.

[fickle rock]

I don't see it as slighting us, for sure. I just see it as innately anti-fun. As a consumer, why on earth would I chose mabinogi over genshin? Over star rail? Over all of these other games that do what mabi is becoming so, so much better. In reality mabi is trying too late to tap into an oversaturated market, or what will be even more oversaturated by the time UE5 comes out.

I agree mabinogi needs to adapt, but where we differ is the solutions and vision we see comparatively. Make things easier but not braindead. Diversify content. Still keep hard dungeons for the tryhards (this includes myself, I say it with love). I don't think you have to choose between abandoning years of content for the newest and biggest thing. It feels like a false equivalence. Diversifying prevents this issue from happening in the first place.

Yes, boosting may be the least complex, but that is also where the criticism comes from. It's pedestrian. It's not unique or fun in any way. It's lazy. It creates more problems that kr also has to fix by implementing the near system and making all that gear untradable, to prevent rmt and alt abuse.

I am fundamentally against taking the easy way out because I want the game to have longevity. Just because I understand the choice as a company to try to make as much profit with as little effort as possible, doesn't mean I don't also see it as incredibly unhealthy for the game in the long term.

That, and this event itself is so confusing and convoluted that I can't see it as being for newbies. It's poorly designed outright, especially because blaanid immediately tries to push you into the arcana achievement missions, which you can fully skip using this event. You have to change channels for quest objectives to pop at all. The quests aren't linked together. I could go on and on.

That being said, solo story is also anti-fun and I've yapped about it up thread too.

[mental dust]

actually nvm i just found the 30x exp booster and i hit 200 in nowhere to run before the first bear spawn i see what's going on LMAOOOO.

okay but tbf tho this is amazeballs for training arcana

[kindred wyvern]

I leveled 3 arcana to 50 in like less than an hour each. It’s even faster in Rev Illusion HM imo. Cause the RB spam is easier since you don’t have to exit camp every time lol

[fickle rock]

Which to be fair IS fun. I wouldn't have a problem with straight out level boosting if it wasn't just everything. The huge swathes of ap. The instant talent and skill training on top of an already nerfed skill training system. Free crusader and spirit levels.

I just believe instead of making these things all limited to events, there is a major problem with the core system.
I can propose a couple of batch changes here for example with spirits that would make it so you no longer NEED events but there is still some challenge involved:

• make everything drop bigger spirit crystals
• give preferred gems 4x exp
• make every bond work like eiry where 1 conversation pushes to 100
• permanently raise the weekly spirit exp cap
• buff metallurgy to raise new gem drop rate/ all gem sizes

This still incentivizes players to grind for gems and doesn't straight out give the player level 100, but makes it so much less of a slog. The biggest annoyance for spirit levelling is making sure your bond is 100.

Those changes wouldn't even be that hard to implement so I don't understand why they won't.

[dreamy socket]

I think these just echo the sentiments of some of the people in the thread.

It is a good point and should make any sane person think:

• If the method of training skills became brain dead easy, why is there an event that makes it easier? (In case anyone needs the clarifier: As in, what was the point in "fixing it" then have an event continue "fixing" a "problem" that they "fixed")

Which can be applied to New Rise:

• They reduced thresholds in Techs, Croms, and Glenns multiple times to "fix" barrier of entry and add all these super OP arcanas to clear thresholds and then we just get rid of all these momentous "holy crap I just did it" from the content they "fixed".

• They "fixed" the drop rates and limited the tech runs and now they "fixed" again with Near by limiting what you can use Near on which is all encompassing for the content you can use it on. Which, I will add, for those who wont get extra Near every week for one reason or another, yet currently do all their Glenns, Techs, and Croms every week is going to take a blow to their income stream on drops.

I think there is a lot of merit to the thought that "system on system on system" is an issue, when the systems aren't built on pre-existing systems, rather, they are built as a separate fix. They need to address pre-existing systems and build off them.

The way they handled reforges in New Rise is brilliant. Thats really the only stand out idea they came up with as far as addressing a pre-exisitng system without adding a system.

Optional sacrifice of a weapon to a new weapon to retain reforges and enchants is great as an option.

But we still see the same mistake being made.

They "fix" then behave as if it is not fixed.

Just fix it eternally.

[deft terrace]

I think it's good for allowing new/returning/busy players to catch up to current content. I have played since the very first day of closed beta, countless hours, but only recently with events' help, was able to get to the point where I can finally experience Arcana and Stardust.

I also would not be opposed to giving some extra bonus to those who already did do these things though, like maybe pon or reforges or other stuff? The fly high event does at least allow you to skip portions of the event and get the items instantly (instead of having to do another tutorial), so that's nice I think.

But I imagine the primary goal is to help/encourage players who aren't far in yet to progress faster to be able to do more content that can do party play more and less being lonely, which can be beneficial to both veteran and new/returning players, and NA/global Mabi is pretty empty population-wise so I'd welcome if it does increase the playerbase overall.

[dreamy socket]

The intent is not about new players. No one seems to have issues with leg ups to newbies. Even in the original post, its not referencing new players, or new player's experience.

However, as you can maybe surmise through reading everyone's thoughts that we are pushing up out of the conversation that there are some great underlying issues people have with how Devcat is handling Events/QoL/Content.

See, it will never be about catching up newbies and finding ways to encourage New and Returning players to play; The original post is about veterans not receiving something for their hard work over the years. AND THEN - The conversation shined a light on some thought provoking perspectives in how, events like this set the expectation that its supposed to be like this all the time. Which is why you have MANY players do their big grinds and time dumps into Mabinogi only during these events. Which takes away interaction with people, and the people who arent playing away from the game during the months they arent running these events. Furthermore, I just piggybacked off of @fickle rock 's points in how they fix this game with QoL and still have the gull to make events to make it even EASIER and still encourages people to be on for 2 months at a time in Summer and again in Winter.

They may as well just turn the servers off, save on electricity, and save our wallets if they are gonna keep pumping these events out like this. Whats the point of playing when I can get it all for free later. 😛

[deft terrace]

That's true, I do feel like it'd be a lot less stressful to play the game in general if there were less frequent events, or just seasonal events. Even events like this give FOMO for those that miss it, and it would definitely be better in the long run if they just continue doing permanent QOL updates/revamps to address what these temporary events seem to be a bandaid solution for.

For me personally, I'd be less likely to burn out if they can slow down the events and limited-time boosts, to have more time to play the game and socialize instead of feeling chained to events (that I don't find fun) T_T

[outer abyss]

It would have been if mabinogi would have not progressed into Arcana’s and over powered crept items and have the most horrible play/reward motto.

For someone to actually authentically play the game as it’s meant to be or originally without Blannid Boost you’d have to have no job, no life, no responsibilities except mabi your life away —- there is no way a returning or new player could ever catch up nor have the means to progress in gear without swiping their card. Even then- they are limited because grinding skills, generations, constant bag rng, gacha, etc it’s all against you.
Ty for coming to my ted talk.

It’s just a game. Let others be able to catch up and enjoy it.

[dreamy socket]

Not sure if you have read through the thread or not but I gave a summary for Neco here: #1393770733943001088 message

Cheers.

[outer abyss]

I don’t understand why you feel entitled to receive compensation for an MMO you chose to grind.

[fickle rock]

Nobody in this thread is actually against allowing newbies to catch up. Please read the thread. Admittedly oensong's original post is low key a bait post, but the actual conversation taking place isn't even close to what you're imagining.

[tidal basin]

..it kinda is a bait post, isn't it?

Though they've said they're just echoing what a few people were saying when typing this up. But the title is very much bait now that I look at it.

[near folio]

Yeah the title will have people consistently come to voice their support for events that give new players a bigger chance to catch up.

[outer abyss]

Yeah I’ve read it and one of the complaints is why there is no compensation for veterans and as well as what’s the reason to play if you will get it free later right?

Unfortunately games, mmos, and the real world world work like that.
example: items lose value in mabi- why get the special new gacha/outfit when it first drops when it’ll be super expensive but we know it’ll be a rerun later? Because people have different priorities and or egos, or simply just enjoy it regardless of the price dropping.

It’s simply just common sense.

There is no way Nexon could compensate the veterans nor be able to have the time to go through and give veterans a “reward” or compensation for spending hours to grind on its game.

I get your sentiments but I think it’s abit premature for compensation or a reward for clocking in hard work on a game.

Not just that but- I think everyone has different lifestyles and responsibilities. People get burn out etc- I think it’s very healthy people come and go and it’s normal for mmos to have seasons that peak.

Anyway; I get your sentiment but I don’t agree 100% agree with it.

It’s just a game
Just try to enjoy it the best you can

[fickle rock]

No, you didn't. I can tell you didn't because again- there isn't a single person in this thread who actually has this take.

We are talking about how events are effectively a bandaid on a bullet wound and don't fix the core issues of the system, only encouraging people to play during master plan. These systems need to be made easier and more fun overall instead of the cheap and meaningless way of just giving it to players. Getting to endgame as fast as possible should not be the only way to play. Content diversification should be valued. Telling newbies they should only play during master plan is bad game design.

[outer abyss]

Not going to argue back and forth but yeah 🙂
Just enjoy the game as best as you can.

[chilly canopy]

If things like training and progression, or even certain grinds were actually fun or engaging, we wouldn’t need constant events just to make them tolerable. It’s not about giving out rewards. What we really need is considerable updates to the core systems.

The problem isn’t that newbies are getting stuff for free, it’s that the systems they’re skipping are so awful that the only way to get people through them is to bypass them entirely.

Had a couple homies that hadn't been on since the stone ages sign in due to the current events. But after its over, they are not sticking around. They simply wait for the next masterplan event.

Also to add, I’ve totally put in more hours than I’d like to admit but I don’t expect, like Nexon to go back and give me a pat on the back for that. The fact that I got to experience the content when it was fresh is the reward in a way.

[dreamy socket]

There is a disconnect here.

You originally tapped in on the premise that newbies should be allowed to catch up. The thread evolved before you entered the conversation. Through the understanding that everyone wants the game to be fun year-round. It evolved into identifying issues we see with having events like this. The core of that being we see people quit after 2 months of events like this because people will just wait till the next event, rather than play the game in the off months.

As soon as I replied to you, the tone changed to Veterans and entitlement.

I have been a devil's advocate for other's sentiments from the start and @fickle rock has a bead on at least a comprehension error on your part. You never would have replied to me and pointed at me for the entitlement line if you knew I was echoing sentiments. I expressed that multiple times through the thread.

Furthermore, catching a single line in an obvious summary to someone who was here to discuss in good faith is disengenous when we have an entire thread that has context to that single line.

I will attempt to flesh the point out in a more clear manner.

Some people find it hard to swallow the fact that people had to play the game to get stuff that people are getting for free without playing the game. The alternative could have been a 30x multiplier on Stardust, 30x Multiplier on Skill training, etc.

But even then, that doesnt even scratch the surface of what actually happens realistically. This is why discussion context matters. Player quit after these events. When was that a good look for games like this? Seriously, we aren't expecting people to sell their soul, but the game should be appetizing all-year-round.

When you actually try to see from the perspective that a player wants the fun at the destination, and then has to go through a bunch of stuff they dont like, to get to the fun, and then an event just willy-nilly gives away the grind without playing the game at all, it feels like a slight on their time.

Entitlement is perceived in social settings as a feeling that a person is owed for just existing. Which is a negative connotation for discussion and an attack of character, not idea. This dissuades the discussion from being a discussion to attack and defense. Which is argumentative.

The original sentiment could be summed up as

• "Dang, I was made to do all this I didn't like to get to the place I do like, and then they gave out that time sink for free, and I could have done something better with my time if I had only known they would give this for free".
  Did you actually enjoy stardust without masterplan or high Flier? Do you see it now?

Previously, you assumed that they were infact enjoying the journey because they chose to work at it. And yes, they chose it. We all did. No one disagrees. But it wasn't enjoyable for many, and thats maybe why mabinogi never became a popular game like WoW or FF14. But thats besides the point. It was bold to assume that these people, myself, or anyone in this thread 1. Enjoyed 100% of the grinds, 2. Think anyone disagrees with choosing it anyways.

At no point is it about newbies. At no point is it about entitlement.

As for everyone else;

Absolutely this is clickbait but the discussion and learning is genuine. @near folio I dont think anyone here is against newbies getting a catch up here.

Edit note: I mentioned once before. The minority of players engage with posts like these. In fact. The majority wont even see a post like this. So part of this experiment is to take sentiments that I hear that no one is bringing to the forefront and see how all of you feel about it, genuinely. Because not many are willing to stick their neck out on the chopping block of public opinion for fear of ridicule and fear of judgement. So I am voicing for the voiceless. The vocal minority doesnt represent what the silent majority wants in mabinogi, not all the time. These discussions are valuable.

[fickle rock]

I just want to make the journey enjoyable for everyone, rather than focus on the destination. It's a problem mabi has had for some time now, with crom and glenn, and now brie. We can help our newbies catch up and have challenging content. We don't have to choose one. The question just has to become "catch up to what?" I think casual content should be expanded on in general.

[round kettle]

Mabinogi needs to do major rework on its progression system. They should be looking at key points like is this game "replayable" if the answer is no they need to fix some things, can the player be "self sustainable" if they have to rely on the market to "catch up" then you need to fix it. Can the player play how they want which can be solved by adding difficulties like "casual (just hit with weapon), normal (actually using skills), veteran (properly geared), elitist (min maxed), hero (min-maxed + perfect team play)" they all share the same drop pool of that specific dungeon except for trophies and rates of those items. They also should stop reworking skills to match the end game and instead add new higher ranks to the skills that are balanced around the end game instead otherwise they just keep wasting time having to balance the entire game rather than just the end game which slows down creating new content.

[dreamy socket]

I agree with all of this.

I guess the only difference in my personal perception is that while drop pools are shared in all difficulty settings, that higher difficulty should yield more guarantee. There should be a reason to do the harder content. Incentive. If Alby beginner for example, gave BMEs at the same rate, then I think no one would do AAHM or RAHM.

Now that I think about it, you may have meant this sentiment in the original post.

At any rate. That was my only thing. You have really solid criteria, and I think devcat is attempting it but I think they seek way too much inspiration from other games(some inspiration is fine) and not enough watering what is right underneath them. Mabinogi is unique, and has desirable elements in it. If they asked themselves the questions you offered here, we would be in much better conditions.

[deft terrace]

Maybe is just me but I actually prefer to run elite SMs even if I know I can just do beginner and rush through, because having enemies not die in one hit is more fun. Same with rhythm games where I will pick the difficulty that I feel a nice in between of it being what I can do comfortably, but not braindead easy or boring.

I think it's not that uncommon though, lot of people do like challenging themselves, and do things like intricate planned raids or such even when they aren't aiming for a particular item, but just to get better at the game and feel accomplished.

[near folio]

people one shot mobs in aahm and rahm why would they not do that for the higher chances in a system where higher tiers of dungeons give the drops

that being said i dont support putting end game mats in beginner dungeons

[dreamy socket]

I think I get what you mean.

Like, why would they allow one shotting mobs in more difficult content for better chances if the aim is to be more difficult?

[gritty spindle]

So you posted this initial feedback even though you don't personally agree with it? I know you edited to clarify and explain you don't actually believe what you posted... but then why even bother posting it then? Why not wait for someone who actually believes this to be true to make the post and then you can respond with your thoughts on it?

If I posted every devil's advocate argument that came my way, it'd simply bog down the feedback channel with thoughts that don't align with my own

[dreamy socket]

Through discussing these thoughts with others I found sentiments that were similar to my own but not everything 100%.

Again, the thoughts of the post are not of my own, that doesnt necessarily mean I dont agree with some of the logic.

For example:

I am not as emotionally charged over the event as those I have discussed this stuff with. However, the logic behind some of the points discussed I have agreement with.

Its easy to hold a devil's advocate position with sentiments that you have partial agreements or majority agreements with than being completely without agreement at all.

I agree with developers not making better choices when catching new players up, I agree that the focus on base game progression needs to be made fun year round for all players, and I agree that some events shouldn't be over rewarding as various draw backs do exist.

Where I agree less or disagree with is mostly the emotional charge behind some of the sentiments, and that this one time Flying High event is as bad as its being made to be. I agree its bad, but not that bad. I am seeing all versions receiving this event, and to me it just looks like the devs trying to align the servers, probably as a move to bring a baseline of players to a certain threshold before UE5 release. I can understand it, and I can see why. Others may have a harder time accepting it than myself. But like I said before, like them, I also dont completely agree with the how.

Where there is another difference in opinion is I personally feel there is benefit to take advantage and save time with an event like this. While I can disagree with the method employed, its there and I will take it. Other characters on the account, free RBs on main. Whatever the use, there is something I can get out of it and I see the utility. Others will flat out ignore the event on principle.

I can also appreciate the criticism, but on my own principle, when there are players who share in sentiments from the original post, yet, dont feel encouraged or even feel their opinion will matter in the face of criticism or judgement, they wont post. Its not worth it.

Why not see how you, Emilia, feels about the sentiments so maybe I can see another point of view? And so will they, if they choose to read a thread like this.

Wouldn't we want to help shape the game into something that is ever-lasting? And is that a hard ask? Is my devil's advocacy in such bad taste or in such bad faith that we need to focus on it?

You asked about my belief, and it is this, clear as I can.

I believe the game should be fun year round for all players at all points in the game. It shouldnt be a game where you play for masterplan and never come back till the next one. I believe that the game should be played for earning, and that includes events boosting your speed of earning.

I.e. if High Flier was an event that boosted exp by a wild amount, compounded with masterplan, at least people would go kill raccoons twice for each rank up. They play the game. Stardust included. Could even level 15 in a day, I dont care. They touched the game, they know how it works, etc.

I believe that open forum discussion is great, and I believe that hearing people's thoughts are valuable and important. I believe that every voice has a spot here in this thread, and I believe that we all love this game enough to respond to this thread one way or another.

May be difficult to track my personal beliefs and where I am being devil's advocate, but the intent is for discussion, learning, and shaping.

Edited note: I also want to ask. @gritty spindle when replying to that thread comment, did you read all of it? I gave some personal takes in that, that would have given a window into what is similar to the original sentiments. Hopefully the above is more clear for you.

[fickle rock]

I'm normally not a fan of devils advocacy but I do think there is a sort of depressing realization of the midgame or early game players that waiting it out and not playing at all often gains them more positives than grinding hard. I think it's a conversation that needs to be had at this point with how big the boosts of this event are.

[dreamy socket]

This is much better said than my wall of text.

Yes. I chose this particular argument. I am not trying to go HAM on all devil's advocacy arguments. This is a good discussion that needs attention. And not every player in mabinogi is here to be represented. So you got me instead.

And I do agree with others in this post too. And I have my own thoughts. Read my wall o text. 😄

[gritty spindle]

In the grand scheme of things, this event helps veteran players and the game as a whole.

Those who have actively played since the beginning of the game, such as myself, have still profited off being active in ways that new players will be unable to during and after this event.

Sure, the event saves you on a ton of time from grinding skills, arcanas, some of crusader, and some of stardust levels. It doesn't automatically give you end-game stats. And it does not make you item rich. For returning players who quit, and new players just joining, all are still poor.

For the new player and returning players after this event concludes:

• The rental weapon will go away.
• The free VIP and whale pet will go away.
• The huge Master plan and Rental inventories will lock up again, and the free mystery bag isn't enough to hold everything modern mabinogi has you pick up.

Meanwhile, veterans have had opportunities to buy meta gear, pets, and items at all-time lows.

• 30m whales? Wont be back for a while.
• The 2nd best-in-slot event scythe? Not available for free.
• The anime collab rewards? Even I can't get the Rem and Ram partners because I missed that event.

I don't believe this event has made us veterans "waste" our time. Those who put in the work to get ahead were rewarded with opportunities to get even further ahead. Even with this event, new and returning players can join up to mid-game content.

If anything, the groups this hurt the most are:

• Account sellers.
• Cousinogi enthusiasts who made a ton of accounts overtime to bypass weekly limits.

Mabinogi has so much content as it is. Get the tedious grind out of the way quickly so players can focus on the actual fun aspects of the game instead. Find me someone who enjoyed shooting 5000 support shot arrows into a zombie for 8 hours just to get the skill from rank 2 to rank 1. That way I can recommend cookie clicker to them instead.

[gritty spindle]

#🧡・mabinogi message

[dreamy socket]

Do you find a difference in Mabinogi granting large modifiers to achieve the same results as now more respectable, than giving level ups for free through a box?

From what i gleaned in your post on the #🧡・mabinogi image you were very generous in parting the details in, i understand the time commitments to the skill training, acquisition of goods, and position in the game. I suppose, this comes right back to, there is no disagreement with making it easier.

As i mentioned to someone recently in a dm, having multipliers so high it basically gives the same effect as what we have now, at least encourages touching Mabinogi grass, versus the alternative where they do not have to touch much mabinogi grass so to speak.

The original sentiment was on time. If, for whatever reason, you knew mabinogi would have an event such as this, would you have played Mabinogi prior to this event?

I just recently used this event to sell to a friend of mine to start playing again(As he started it, played for a week and quit). Dont get me wrong, I think its great at getting young blood in, but I can still see issues with how the event was employed.

The game should be in a position where its fun 24/7 round the clock, 365 Days a week, without Flying High, and Masterplan.

[jolly meadow]

This i 1000% agree with, to the point i love a post advocating and supporting this. (off subject) but i have told ppl that it can take up to 30 days alone to understand and even try to do paid transactions for the game, cus of the learning curve (example; Welcome Milletian growth Package having items clearly need time to understand or be functional) - this includes this event, the UI also, and always had been newplayer unfriendly... Quest Location Button even with the updated UI is still bad (another example) But if u were to make this a feedback post, i love that (personally). My apologies Oensong for the offtopic.

[jolly meadow]

To stay on topic with your post Onesong, and having SO MANY posts to read. WHAT is the compensation you think End-game players should have? (if any)

These bimonthly Master Plan Events might seem irregular. But I personally believe its more complex than meets the eye.
Getting players back when the game was first created, is very different then it is now.
Players would obtain items based on how much money the company received from paying players. This created an addictive player base. (example; we made this much money, therefor we can do free events, add content, and update the game, and create satisfactory prolongation of our players regardless if all are taking part of payments and transactions)

Now companies CURRUNTLY don't connect paid players to free gameplay. that all actions MUST conduce some type of profit, or the playability is halted overall. (Mihoyo is a good example, cus u can max out players making gameplay and grinding inconducive to the player unless the player buys a new character) (sometimes you can get points to get a free character, but these companies make sure you spend more or equal to the hours of a actual average income to buy that said item)

The Director refuses to do that. (from the actiosn ive seen thus far)
The Director is making some of the BEST decisions to keep the game ethical and free. By reintroduce players to the game bimonthly creates the addictabillity they need. Based on a more moral lens. Mabinogi/Nexon has to compete with new games coming out. This helps to not choose between "Horse racing game, monster hunter, and marvel rivals, etc) and INSTEAD make ppl comfortable and happy to return, by promising to make up the time lost, annually or bimonthly.

To a average mabinogi player this can seem weird, because most end game mabinogi players play everyday. So it doesn't look like its working. "my friend left and only returns when the master plan happens" instead of "returns". the important factor is their returning, and not because they are obligated, but are putting this game at the same level of other games or lifestyles choices. Most games come out with bimonthly updates, cus it shows to have a better, healthier returning player base.

addictive obligatory strategies, i dont think is favorable to the director, and is making some crazy decisions to give free stuff away instead.

The director has; made style tab free, consistently easing gacha changes to be more permanent (like Dressing room), made in game stores that offer purchasable items free (Dungeon Guide shop), and i just heard about this, so i might be wrong... but the new gacha items can be made ingame for free?)
to me thats a hero wearing no cape.

The only issue i personally see end-game players have, is sharing more of the market and lessoning gold prices. I personally play this game for fun. i DONT like grinding, i dont like playing more than a few hours every now and again. But i did play this game when it first came out, and havn't stopped playing it. These updates were not a slap in the face for me personally, because i didnt do anything i didnt want to do. i played the game for fun. So i dont need to be compensated for it, or feel these bimonthly events need to be stopped...(definitely organized better)

[near folio]

I honestly think they should just give a bigger buff to active content during the events for later game players

something like Sidhe Finnichaid AP costs reduced and max awakening thresholds increased, even more crom/glenn/tech runs or slightly increased drop rates for crom/glenn/techs or extra pity points for crom and glenn & fever time active on all days for glenn

[dreamy socket]

• So, if you ask the people I am representing the views of, I actually have no answer. The frustration level seemed so high, and their inability to even remotely find a healthy-for-the-game compensation was not even something they could think of at the time. Again, i think many people are on your side with making the game more accessible. So lets not fixate so much on newbie-friendly since we all seem to be there.

Right now, we have people who, if they were told something like this would be here a year from now, two years from now, many people would just not do anything with this game until then. You'd have a ghost town. There is a problem here. People value their time. They vote with their time. And people used their time on things they didnt like doing to get the destination they so desired. Then that time was given away or free. These same players who hold these sentiments are happy with the changes to skill training being more accessible, they are happy with style tab being free. The new director is fantastic. We are in a koombiya synergetic synchronization on those points. That isnt the issue. Largely, they wanna see the game being played, not bypassed, unless the game devs create the bybpass in the base game. Events are a run around bandaid, and the frustrations comes from that. Its not comparing to new players, it is everything about "what did I do all this for, if I could do this instead?" Its hollow.

• If you ask me personally, I will echo some similarities that @near folio has posted just now. Just have more available across the board. But even then, that wouldnt fix the underlying problems that have been discussed.

I understand your points on returning and new players having something to come back for, and we do this with Masterplan and now Flying High, but dont you think there should be some level of solution to maybe retaining the hype year round with just the base game? I mean, at least Masterplan allows you to play the game. High EXP training for players allows them to touch Mabinogi Grass, and be rewarded more for it. Why is flying high bypassing it so heavily. 64 Skills can be r1'd on-top of the Complete Talent r1's to Master 2 of them. Thats a bypass. You dont touch grass. People quit affter masterplan already, historically. Do you see the channels when you log in? FULL, BUSY, and more hours of the day than we ever had in recent years. Do you honestly think that will be the same in October? Yes, its great to pull people back regularly, but what about retaining more people, rather than always trying to draw the line back in on people? What if we actually kept them here and they feel the itch year round? It is a problem on its own. I have listed solutions through thoughts and ideas in the thread among others who have ideas on what can make that work.

In short:

• These events soured the taste in some players mouths by creating a hollow feeling based on how the event was handled.
• These Events create a habit to play only during these events and no other time.
• These events are not helping to retain those players year-round(which I understand some may get hooked from these events, and thats cool. But mark it, October, it aint going to be as full anymore. I am HAPPY to eat my own words. I want to be wrong)

[fickle rock]

I just want the game to be fun for midgame players year round 😔

[dense quiver]

tldr: event not bad, but temporary solutions bad and there is little for players to invest their time in safely

In general, you can ignore most arguments with this event and boil it down to one microcosm:

In 2020 Nexon admitted that there were very real issues with large parts of the game. It is now 2025.

Flying High Event gives out all 6 max Renown for one Character (which, for most people, is usually what people focus on). It does this with a limited time release event item instead of a permanent system change.

In 4~8 months we will get a patch that completely removes the Renown system.

If you can't defend how long it took for them to come to this decision, can't defend removing content that you can do in the game instead of trying to make it more enjoyable, can't defend releasing a temporary event-window solution to a problem, or can't defend releasing a permanent solution after a temporary one then you at least understand some of the underlying issues at hand with this event.

In Nexon's defense they have tried over the last few years to make Renown less annoying. And honestly, it wasn't so helpless that it needed to be entirely removed from the game.

But there is no doubt at least one theoretical player who spent the last month before Fly High Event grinding out Renown for endgame player stats, only to instantly be defeated by getting them for free from an Event, itself which will eventually be undone by the removal of Renown and its bonuses.

The uncertainty about what matters in this game is a large part of the issue here. For the last decade (yes, decade) the Renown system was a certain way of getting certain stats. If every month comes with the removal of a certain aspect of the game, players eventually come to the conclusion nothing they do matters.

I'm sure we will see a lot of the same complaints/issues if we get the new system in Korea that drops fully crafted Nightbringer weapons.

[dreamy socket]

Its a good point to bring up renown.

I think because of those points, even those who have gripes with Flying High are not really much concerned for Renown. But its mostly other aspects such as Stardust which was an enormous time sink that you had to be at the computer for unlike many renown you could afk and craft or play instruments.

The simple fact that Renown is going away for good keeps renown out of the discussion for the most part.

Simply, free skills, and free stardust is the main gripe.

Again, rebirth potions for slapping arcanas together quick isn't an issue. People are touching mabinogi grass.

And to the nightbringer point:

I have personal mixed feelings but ultimately I look back to when Peaca Intermediate held the end game Armors for a while. Lance Feather. And it was fully functional.

I dont see how adding crafted NB gear tier levels to drop pools is any different. Personally.

[mental dust]

LMAO at first I was like "i don't know what everyone's going on about this is just letting people catch up it's nbd"

Then i realized the thing was like 30x experience boost and im like "oh dang that's going over a bit but whatever it's one time for the event, let people have their fun"

i JUST realized it wasn't a one time thing. It's like 8 free RBs per weekly PLUS one free daily RB that goes on for the whole event

lmaoooo this is sweet, i can max out arcana without waiting for the next masterplan.

I mean this is also a reward for the veterans. i'm ok with this tbh.

I mean, I made enough videos of me deleting RB potions to tease Arci. RB potions during any other event is completely useless to me, so I appreciate the "compensation for useless event reward" for the rest of the year during the one time where it's useful -- to rank arcana.

[tidal basin]

You mean to tell me you don't rebirth to get more AP? xD

[dreamy socket]

You are asking the real questions LOL

[tidal basin]

Hehe thanks!

[mental dust]

lmao i only rb for new arcana. I have like 50k aps saved up and nothing to use it on.

[tidal basin]

I see. :0
Well, ig I could understand that lol

But wouldn't you want more? xD

[mental dust]

kinda goes back to the original point of the post, though. We vets have all the skills/APs we need. The high fliers event basically does nothing for us other than easy arcana boost WHICH BY THE WAY I DO APPRECIATE. I have several billion gold that i have nothing to spend on. I honestly don't mind it if it helps player retention. I've basically already milked all the fun I could out of mabinogi and I'm waiting for new content to do. Meanwhile I also have like 6 other games I do daily challenges for, so it's all good one way or another.

In fact, I wouldn't mind if more events were targeted towards new players, with easy to gain rewards, as opposed to forcing new players to do harder content that they're not ready for.

Gatekeeping people from having a good build/nice stuff/pretty clothes is such a petty thing to do. It's super duper DUPER cringe. Literally let people skip the silly grind, it's their character, it doesn't take anything away from you. In fact, you can also create a new character and take advantage of the level ups.

Also i want to add that despite having 9001 skills to use in combat, I still default to spamming fireball with CC+3 so like..

why can new players not get new skills easily when lazy vets like me are just spamming fireball

lol

[tidal basin]

You raise very good points.
Also, you're very rich holy moly- :0

I agree. Gatekeeping is awful.
-# And so is making things untradable...
I'm only at most midgame so I can still take advantage of this event. But yeah you raise very good points and I agree with them all.

Hehe.

[neat flint]

Also to note like, this is a catch up event for the new vetern focused update we are getting this week, a month after. Bri leith.

[dreamy socket]

I think the vets that have issues with it, to the very core has a lot to do with the fact that the event bypasses playing the game itself.

For example, Devcat could have made Flying High an event that stacks with Masterplan and granted stardust a ridiculous exp boost and took away the RNG for it until the event concluded. New players do stardust like 15 times and its maxed. Done. They played the game at least.

Same with the Max talents box. Could have made the exp gain ridiculous and allowed players to play the game.

Renown is going away forever so it makes sense to give that away.

But once you look at the fact that the game is not being played, even for 5 minutes, some vets are feeling slighted for the time they spent playing the game doing things they did not enjoy doing when it could have been free.

The post is less to do with giving to new players. Even those who i am representing in this post agree that the game needs to respect people's time better, especially the new player experience.

We can beat the drum all day on "dont attack new players" but its always going to end up with everyone agreeing.

This just has to do with the same people that want new players time respected to having their own time respected too.

[dusk ravine]

Yeah, I'm 90% confident that this event was designed and catered to getting players to a place where they can participate in the new content drop, which is not inherently bad but does feed into an underlying problem

I understand the frustration of vets in saying that they can't benefit from it, but at the same time when you're at the end of the rope what else can you expect 😂 (another extremely hot take following)

I think what many fail to realize in a game like Mabinogi is that it was designed to be a slow burn with various avenues to pursue. If your mentality is that you need to get to end game because that's the only thing to do, you have nobody but yourself to blame. To blame developers when you're tunnel-visioning maybe 30% of the game is insane. It's like saying that I am only interested in the chewy center of a tootsie pop, but instead of enjoying the outer shell I just smash it with a hammer to get at it sooner and when all I'm left is with the stick I say "Where's the rest of it?"

Like Cocoshi mentioned before, players nowadays are only interested in one thing: instant gratification, that continuous pursuit for that adrenaline/dopamine rush of 'new and shiny', typically followed by the loss of interest after days (or months if the developer is lucky). MMOs weren't designed with this in mind, which is why it will continue to trend downward, but I digress

With all that said, players are not solely to blame either. As I mentioned in my earlier post (#1393770733943001088 message), this is the sort of thing that happens when you place all of your eggs in one basket rather than fleshing out other aspects of the game to encourage longevity. There is no easy solution here, no magical answer that is going to benefit anyone who already has the aforementioned mentality

My recommendation? Play the game casually, find other ways to play, some people have resorted to doing an 'iron man challenge' to spice things up-- give that a try. Change up the way that you consume content in this game. And if none of that appeals to you? Play a different game. I know I've gone off on a tangent here but man, it is so disheartening when vets press the developers to add more and more and more to end game instead of asking that they revisit what they already have and improve on it (e.g. more multiplayer content early/mid, better onboarding/tutorial, more minigames/activities throughout Uladh/Iria/Belvast, etc)

[neat flint]

Will say they are kinda working on fixing the base progression of the game with new rise, this event mainly seems like a please keep playing while we fix the game kinda feal.

[fickle rock]

My problem is despite new rise being extremely promising, they've said for ue5 they're removing dead content such as thinking about removing hot air ballooning and rafting, and removing a lot of things like stardust and renown. That's not reworking. If there was a "hey we are removing this in the meantime while we rework it and it will eventually come back in a way more satisfying way, please trust us" I wouldn't feel so crummy. There are other bandaid they can use other than completely removing or giving players rewards outright as outlined in the thread.

[neat flint]

I mean we don't know for sure what is and isn't getting removed yet, they have removed dead content so far in that they've removed potential and renown, they are working to rework alot of stuff so far. They have 2 years atleast of time to work on reworking stuff prior to UE5 and ue5 allows for alot of the minigames to be way smoother, imagine if rafting wasn't a laggy desync nightmare.

[dreamy socket]

I think a clearer outline of intention could give better perspective for those apprehensive to begin with.

At least Over the Rainbow and Test Your Metal has you touching Fantasy Grass to get things. So that in of itself is a huge W comparatively to High Flying.

[sand oxide]

On a personal note- I had a Ruin. I made the dumb decision of leaving due to the community and its problems and left it with someone I thought I could trust. Turns out, I couldn't trust them.

Them streamlining the gear-making process or allowing players (in my current spot) to garner gear without having to bash your head against the wall for a YEAR while also garnering support from the community itself.- is honestly a major win.

Instant gratification isn't the goal- getting a Ruin outright would honestly take the fun out of the game's OG purpose of 'grind and gain'. However, making the grind surmountably easier? I'm all for it. I don't like being gatekeeped from VHM Glenn because of my gear lacking HEAVILY. Them making mats easier to obtain- or having the chance of dropping a full weapon, doesn't negate the purpose of the game's OG design of 'grind and gain'. It just makes progressing through all the content Mabi has; which is a metric ton of things, easier and less tedious to GET to.

As for the Skip-Gen quests thing? Eh, I can take it or leave it. Even with a maxed-out Demo I was blazing through G23 and only hit major hills regarding bugged out or misleading content. I read and saw that this was prevalant in Pre-G26 content; so having the ability to skip it when I've played since 2008 felt like a blessing. Admittedly, I'll probably go back to those Gens I skipped to complete them and experience the lore behind it all...and hopefully when I do they fix the misleading issues and bugs that perpetuate them.

Between a large part of the community's end-gamers being very exclusive and the game having issues (aside from good update changes) getting newer players to stay; it's just a matter of drawing more people into the game to buffer the broken-and-old leg of the community it sits on.

I'm okay with Ruins being more accessibly obtainable via grinding. I'm 'eh' towards Gens being skippable. Not okay with members gatekeeping content cus "I don't want to fail."

[dreamy socket]

I dont think anyone, or even the thoughts being represented are talking on the points of gatekeeping.

No one wants that.

See this comment:
#1393770733943001088 message

And the latest comment:
#1393770733943001088 message

I am sorry to hear about your bow and that you had felt mistreated in the past.

Typically, if a game hands things out all the time, and generally everyone gets to a point where they have everything the game can offer, do succumb to a level of boredom that kills the game outright.

TERA Online was boring within the first opening month to me for personal reasons, but more objective reasons for it being shut down in recent years has a lot to do with their catch ups, free hand outs, and lack of progression. People get bored and move on to other games, and they couldn't retain a profit. Their cash shop model had issues. Etc.

On the other side, RaiderZ died because the game just simply lacked an interesting progression and became boring compared to it's competitors in the market. So, because it was hard to level past a certain point, and the progression was incredibly linear, as well as the story being lackluster... there wasnt much people would, on average, stick around for.

Mabinogi has plenty to stick around for, and they are without a doubt trying to find a model that works for them without killing the game.

But we have real examples of what not to do on both sides. You introduced some off topic talking points, but generally, people are allowed concern for recent decisions based on prior experiences with games that died out.

[hollow flame]

The memories I made are worth more than the levels the game has given out. My wife being able to play now cause she's jumped 40k free levels is well worth it.

[dreamy socket]

There is a whole discussion we can have about memories and how our perception of good times will differ from what a new player will experience with good times comparatively. They wont be the same that is for sure.

The thoughts being represented in the original thread have everything to do with events bypassing the actual concept of playing the game to achieve, and how they personally feel that their time wasnt respected as they could have had these things for free.

Keep in mind, getting levels in 2 waves of Zombies during Nowhere to Run is still playing the game. Killing 1 racoon and getting an auto rank up each rank of a skill is playing the game.

Standing at an NPC and just having it handed to you is not playing the game.

Even though the players whose thoughts I am representing have the stance that their time feels disrespected, they still desire new players to have a much easier time than what we had. This is because they know all too well the grind is unfair and not respectful of the time a player puts in.

We maybe want to take a step back on thos thread and see that, 99% of the people here are going to celebrate the fact that your wife can play with you and be happy.

But at the end of the day, that's just your wife.

Let's see what happens in the coming months with the rest of the player base. Will they stay or will the leave because they are only here for Flying High and Masterplan?

Now the topic here is more on point to what we have been discussing. What is healthy for the game overall. 1, or even tens of instances like yours may still be the minority of cases, but there is a reason why in a month, our Busy, And Full status on our channels are going to go back to Busy and Normal. Thats not retention.

[last notch]

Would you rather these periods don’t happen at all? In either case it sounds like you’re predicting that these visitors would leave sooner or later. If that happens to be the case, you’re unaffected. If they don’t mostly leave, the game benefits. Sounds like a situation where you either benefit, or there “no harm, no foul.”

You say that talking to an NPC isn’t gameplay, but on the flip side, just how engaging or fulfilling is it to grind out skills at foxes/raccoons, such as battle astrology? Or, as mentioned prior, beating thousands of zombies at TNN for WM back in the day? Those things are merely pre- requisites for actual gameplay, like dungeons. To that end, whether you’re ranking up due to an NPC or killing simple mobs, both are about as equally fun and engaging,

[dreamy socket]

Predictions and Patterns are not the same.

Its a pattern. Masterplan has a boon of activity followed by a lull in activity. I am not predicting, I am using metrics, facts, and patterns.

We can talk about business strategy or how you feel about what that does for me. By metric, less players generally affects people.

Friend groups stop playing leaving stray people to find new PUG groups, and we go right back into the same vicious cycle of disengagement.

We hope that maybe there is a 4D chess move that Flying High retains players. But this is a first, but its still falling on a Masterplan.

I have no clue where you are gathering the idea that anyone here is talking about "rather go back to tens of thousands of Zombies at TNN".

I think everything has been pointing to how things are employed.

I'll rephrase. Flying High, instead of getting it for free at NPC, the parameters are cranked up to get immediate level ups on skill use. Immediate stardust level ups on doing a quest, etc.

Sounds to me its 6 of one, half dozen of the other, but only one method actually encourages touching aspects of the game so people see it.

If you perhaps spend some time reading everyone's thoughts you will find that everyone likes the idea of making the game more accessible. So lets not confuse the plot.

What someone finds engaging is subjective, so what is engaging to you, may not be engaging to me.

So when we talk about roll off in activity after these events are gone, we are talking about disengagement. Actually, yeah, no Masterplan at all, and have the base game be permanently in a condition that those sorts of events aren't required.

It makes total sense. Year round retention sounds amazing, for PUGs, for guilds, for communities, for replay value.

[late bronze]

My two cents, as a returner, flying, otr, and new rise has me more excited to stick around than any other previous update

[dreamy socket]

Thats awesome to hear!

Hope to see you around for many years to come!

[proper cairn]

as a returnee from some years ago and had been playing for almsot a decade. the flying high was overwhelming but a very welcome way for me to catch up and learn some new important parts of the game. helping me catch up some lost years and feeling happy i can play with my newly made friends. it helped me convince some other older players to return aswell, the promise of being able to catch up and have a somewhat tutorial fasttracked for this was actually nice.

though i can also fully understand that for the veterans who hadnt gone of hiatus and the like this mightve been a slap in the face, and the instant r1 of skills and even instand grandmastering of a few talents did feel insane even from my perspective. it did help tremendously though.

I will say now that its ended i feel i can catch my breath and focus on catching up to the story, i didnt really want to skip any gens as i like the story (always have) and can slowly learn or relearn some aspects of the game and try find somethings to focus on.

[dreamy socket]

I am glad you are sticking around. Many people left already, indicative of the channels not being g impacted. With Full or Busy.

I appreciate you taking the time to share your positive experience!

I think if you wade through this whole thing it really just came down to some people would have preferred Flying High to involve more playing the game for the same quick gains rather than an Item or NPC carrying auto completions.

Some people have expressed talking to an NPC as playing the game and by all means whatever we do we are playing the game. However, new players wont be as rehearsed or have experienced much or anything at all on how to do or rank or GM etc. It can be an odd thing where, down the line, they can be asked "how do you rank this skill?" And they will just say idk, recite what other players have done, or point to a guide.

The other half of the discussion was separate from individual players, and rather what some prefer in seeing year round. Being that some of us feel it is both dangerous or harmful to only have Masterplan or Flying High now, to be the reason to play. These players want year round retention. Not 2 month windows for attention, rather have the game be in a state where they have the consideration to play mabinogi every week of the year.

All in all, seeing so many ditch the game after the events were over is sad. And like a prophet, I was unfortunately right. But seeing that people are staying, like you, feels great!

We hope to have you around for many years to come!

[proper cairn]

I will be around, my nostalgia and love for this game have always been strong and the missing piece that had me leave from time to time was finding a community that worked with my timezone, wich this time i have found that. and that whole little group is all returning players who are also very dedicated to remain.
We are definetly around the people that have returned and made use of the event to kick us back to mid-late game and are adjusting to relearning other aspects.
I think a huge drop-off point outside of people who were only motivated by the freebies though is school and college starting again, or peoples jobs.

Oh if flying high was more play to reward to get those boosts id think thatd have been perfectly fine too. i'm definetly guilthy of the "master fynn pet trainer with 0 clue what it entails" though i am reading the wikis and trying to understand it all.
I was taken aback by just the daily r1 stuff just like that and such and also going over some other boosts. if next time this sort of event had to reward you after doing more small tasks related to the talent or skill id not mind it.

Ive had a friend who argued standing in dunbarton was concidered playing the game, talking to npcs to me is playing, but thats more getting story or lore imo, the true meat is ofcourse the dungeons and other combat aspects or lifeskill aspects of the game.
the "skip generations"felt very strange, like i said i havnt touched that one, i still have the freebie in my inventory and im not sure i like the idea of it? i was always invested in the story, even if the rp missions can be tedious or it involves a looot of back and forth talking. mainly cause i care about the lore and story of the game.

Im glad to have been a positive voice in here. and I know im not alone, but im also here to agree with some points.

also im glad to be back, i missed Mabinogi so much.

[dreamy socket]

My friend! This game hits a nostalgia nerve in ways that I dont understand LOL

There is a lot to learn after using that stuff but I am glad you are taking the time to dive in on what this stuff is. Especially fynn sync and how you level, assign pet friends, give them fynn beads, skills to use, etc etc. Its great additions for more depth on pets!

Again, glad to have you back! Great game with an ever growing community!