#Glitches, Tricks & Logic

1396 messages · Page 2 of 2 (latest)

plush furnace
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ok caught up, I suggested putting DDR for a weekly as a ruleset because the settings are probably something standard would not be interested in. It can be with whatever settings but allow more freedom. The suggestion was also to play alongside standard to see the difference and impact that it brings to finish times

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People overly conflate that glitches mean you can win 1 hour before anyone else

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I will echo that there are many different resources for learning whether it be part of this tournament or something as a personal endeavor and please feel free to reach out at any time

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The slope in terms of skipping item requirements would really be better to have as refined goals

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There is a middle ground between standard + DDR and if item requirements are important then it can be worked around

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however glitchless tech and hookshot extension are powerful enough in their own rights

lime citrus
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The point was more, if we want to understand how something like aqua escape plays in standard, doing a DDR weekly isn't going to be the way to tell that

plush furnace
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I dont know at what point those two things merged but they were different concepts

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not to be combined

lime citrus
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yeah thats fair

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it got combined at one point

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we were asking for standard + aqua escapse + ladder skip and then someone said we should just do a DDR weekly so that can be tested

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which just isn't really going to work

plush furnace
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I think you should, still as a separate concept. Because the fear that using glitches is too game breaking is prevalent. The core is glitchless logic. Routing and logic reading will be more valuable

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if aqua escape is allowed then that's access to 3 hint stones in river, 1 in domain, and if rutos letter is there then the 2 in fountain quite early

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that's a lot lol

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I really dont understand how the weight of these tricks are being decided tbh

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also re: catering to platform vs controller needs only keyboard players get truly shafted

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emu can figure out pause buffering, is it slower? sure, but with practice you can do it

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controllers dont need an ess adaptor to be able to do ess turns, notchless controllers can be worked with over time and practice. Just ess shuffle randomly when waiting out ToD or something. Thats always my recommendation

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maybe a hot take reading back the discussion but it irks me a lot the pandering

agile bloom
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The question is not about can people learn glitches, or people "fear" glitches, etc. Do we want glitches in a format that has been mostly "glitchless" for so long. Why is it bad that a format is glitchless or mostly glitchless. There are other formats thatallow for different glitch levels.

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Why is it being characterized as people fearing glitches or not wanting to learn glitches? Why can't people like the style that they like and others prefer their style?

flat abyss
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I think a lot of people feel like the format is stale and solved, with not much room to improve on.

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That's my assumption at least

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It's how I feel at least. I don't feel like I have much room to improve on anymore

agile bloom
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It is stale and solved but we don't try different settings at the same time.

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Lots of people have different views on the settings.

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I have seen feedback in these forms that say we don't experiment with settings

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glitches are skips to logical / item roadblocks in the seeds.

flat abyss
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I mean that's a community thing. Id love to see more wacky and wild settings but they just get benched because people hate change usually.

agile bloom
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I agree I would like to see the tourney go a direction for settings / gameplay and then ask for feedback

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Not try to hodgepodge a communal vote to a blander setting set

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People hate TFB settings but they have an identity with a purpose to the setting set

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and a core group loves them

plush furnace
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It had nothing to do with liking a specific playstyle or not.

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Also RSL is still a format that has every setting under the sun.

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There are absolutely standard tournaments and races that use a variety of settings but still people call it stale and want to shake meta

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S7 was a draft format even so that every race would be different settings

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Not understanding where you’re coming from saying that settings arent varied

flat abyss
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And feedback shows people don't want draft again, which is what saddens me

plush furnace
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That is sad indeed but understandable to an extent.

flat abyss
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And if you watched the final matches, they were almost always the same settings being picked

plush furnace
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Logic has always been at the forefront of the conversation in this thread, to point that out

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Everything mentioned has been met with, how would that impact logical access or item requirements. Whether it be a glitch or trick

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So this is still trying to adhere to the way that standard has been going

agile bloom
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I would hardly call 1 major and 1 minor different settings. How settings interact together highly change gameplay and the settings experience. The draft was rushed and didn't allow for feedback to be adequately proposed before tourney start.

plush furnace
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Compared to the same settings held for the entire tournament, it is a different format imo. I could list all of the different tournaments and their settings and every single one would be drastically different. As a community the majority of the playerbase participates in 75% of them at any given time. I feel like people already tried a variety of things and have made assumptions and preferences long ago

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The only thing argued about more than anything is hints

agile bloom
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Hints can change how a seed flows or feels. I speak of tfb too much but that is just a triforce hunt done many times right.

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But the hint systems and settings made it stand on its own

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Again what is the goal or desired playstyle for s8. How can we change settings, rules, develop new anything to achieve that.

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The last thing I want to see is a pull together of random community highest % favorites to appease the community because of how people reacted to s7.

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Or to throw away the identity of standard which has been mostly glitch less. I can see some things being added and people will learn. We just want to proceed with caution as it is a slippery slope.

plush furnace
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Two things added to standard cannot even begin to scrape the surface of oot potential. There is absolutely no way standard could lose an identity just from that

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And that is the fear I mentioned earlier shining thru

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Standard’s identity currently is already inconsistent at best with weird allowances and bans. So trying to firm up that was also mentioned

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All of this is to try, not that it’s cemented in stone

lime citrus
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^ if we refuse to try anything we'll just end up with essentially like s7 base

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it does no harm to try anything

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I don't speak for the tourney team, but i doubt anythign will ever be set in stone in these channels

agile bloom
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We have hardly touched the surface of settings, hints, and other potentials.

lime citrus
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Sure but that doesn't mean we can TRY to add a very small glitch or 2

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i'd bet if you allow for the clips i mentioned, they would likely not be used at all

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in 95% of seeds

agile bloom
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To me we are adding something to add something and not working towards a play experience or a goal of a s8 setting set. I am not against testing glitches in a trial of settings

timber ore
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If the clips are almost never actually used, then how does that actually shake up the standard tournament in any way?

agile bloom
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What is the purpose of the action we are doing and how does it impact the play experience

lime citrus
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it won't likely, but it does make some routing options

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which could make things easier to route

agile bloom
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But would this add exceptions to that could confuse people or lead to unintended consequences in using a glitch in a different area.

timber ore
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I also don't understand how to reconcile the idea that we need to tighten up the standard ruleset for exceptions while also wanting to add X or Y clip. These seem like opposing ideals.

lime citrus
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WHich is fair

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but it still might be good to test

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you woudln't add it to the rule set

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you'd add it to the tourney allowed tech

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the ruleset would remained un changed

agile bloom
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Like I fully expect to have a weekly set of races with a few glitches added

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Not arguing against trying

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I just don't see how they fix the settings blandness complaint without also changing other things to make the play experience different

lime citrus
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tbf there is always going to be blandness complaints

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playing the same settings for 6 months will always lead to that

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regardless

agile bloom
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I agree

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People will also dislike the settings that are picked in the end

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What's the quote, If you try to be friends with everyone you end of enemies of everyone. Can't try to please everyone. I would like to see a direction to point these discussions to.

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Maybe s8 is the season of easier access to locations

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That water temple entry glitch. The river access, well access

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More options available and you have to make your choices or push paths harder

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That would be pushing changes to a goal

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I could see a setting set combining tricks like that and being different

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Add in dungeon er as people like that

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And picked it heavily in s7

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And just make it easier to get to the dungeon entrances by giving some of the glitch access

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Now there is where I can get behind a discussion of a glitch being added. Add it for a purpose and a goal of game play experience

plush furnace
timber ore
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That is exactly what TFB did by allowing the shadow gate clip

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in reply to Majarkin

plush furnace
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It is a literal goal oriented ruleset

agile bloom
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I meant the goal of the gameplay experience of the season

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What is the experience that is trying to be tailored for the players here

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And if a glitch would improve that then let's talk about adding it

plush furnace
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At this point talking about it goes in circles. It really needs to be tested

agile bloom
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What are we testing? We don't have a direction to which we are trying to drive setting changes.

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How does this glitch feel? Well that would change based on what the setting set is trying to do.

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The ruleset changing should be instep with the play experience of what is trying to be made. Not try random things out and see what people think.

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We are putting the settings (cart) before the goal /playstyle experience (horse)

plush furnace
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They arent random, they were suggested for a reason as Jay said. And the impact it could give. It’s up to the organizers to actually map that out and you’re not going to get an answer today on that.

agile bloom
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Sp when we propose a glitch, hearing it won't be used much or isn't impactful doesn't sound appealing for a change

plush furnace
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They have received many suggestions not just in this thread but across all of them

agile bloom
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Yes I know I have been participating in the other threads. My point still remains the same for those threads.

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Why we are choosing a setting or what my preference for a setting would be is impacted by what the overall goal of the combination of setting is.

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We are throwing solutions before defining a problem

plush furnace
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No??

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None of these were solutions. These were to add to the pool of testing

agile bloom
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Why do you want the glitches you have proposed Shiro? What gameplay experience are you trying to alter with the proposed glitches inclusion?

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It seems more you just want more people to play glitched styles of rulesets which is perfectly fine.

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I am going to bed and will read your responses in the morning. I am a little tired of being called afraid of glitches or not wanting to learn. It may not have been intended as an offense but when repeated so often it is hard to take it any other way.

plush furnace
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I didnt create this thread, nor the topic. As I’ve been in this community for several years and played the majority of formats and organized glitched racing for a short time I was just providing my experience and opinions since the current playerbase has little to no experience in the impact of the proposed glitches. And also providing examples of how they are used.
Aqua escape and ladder clip werent even my suggestions to begin with. My suggestion was hookshot jump to nocturne warp pad as it only skips one song which you can sus out from hints and logic reading. It also would pair well with the conversations about FAE and shadow boat speedup.
But all of these have impacts to how logic can be broken or skipped.

I continued to suggest one weekly of ddr because no one in this thread apart from 2-3 people actually play with any kind of glitches. Not that the tournament would be based off of it. I think it’s really impractical and a ton of work for a brand new organization team to try to create a testing ruleset with a hodgepodge of glitches when they have no knowledge of them and what they can do. So using an already established ruleset that has defined goals and reasons for the allowed use of glitches would be a basis for people to try and then make educated opinions on what is too impactful to play with. At the end of the day its glitchless logic. That will never change.

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Its not intended as an offense but you’re making opinions on something you have never tried

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Considering nothing has even been chosen yet and the forums were literally opened less than 24 hrs ago, when feedback has been compiled of what there is interest in then Im sure there will be more communication when available

agile bloom
plush furnace
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you as well

whole comet
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To be fair to some of the organizers, some of us have dabbled on glitches here and there. I did play ddr for a bit to get a feel for it, but definitely not enough to really get a grasp of it

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So I think it's fair to say we have limited knowledge of the impact of certain glitches, but not enough to flip things one way or the other

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The short time I did play ddr I did have fun

plush furnace
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knowing and using it regularly are different though, which was the distinction I was aiming for. Dabbling just brings awareness to start forming thoughts and suggestions

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glad you did have fun 🙂

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this thread wasnt meant to devolve into playstyle discussions so at this point I'm just going to wait for what testing would come about in future weeks. Enough has been said that should hopefully get gears turning

light arrow
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I think something to consider with glitches is that anything that involves pause buffering may give VC players an advantage over emu players. There's plenty of glitches that don't require it, but in the standard ruleset as is there's very very few tricks that require it.

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I can't even think of anything I would currently pause buffer, besides Spirit sun block room with just Bow, but I don't think I've ever decided to do that in an actual seed

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I was under the impression that pause buffering being bad on emulator is partially why OOTR never really went the glitched route

flat abyss
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I don't think i've ever pause buffered anything in standard

proud viper
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not sure what you mean by "went the glitched route". glitched runners do exist! it's just that whatever-you-want-to-call-standard is more popular

light arrow
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So if the community does decide to experiment with glitches and what to allow, anything that relies/is much easier with pause buffering already is off the table

light arrow
flat abyss
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thats not a good standard for anything

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box skip in jabu is easier with pause buffering

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doesn't mena you should ban it

proud viper
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a 0.05s window isn't that hard to hit unbuffered

light arrow
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Yeah I never do box skip buffered

plush furnace
flat abyss
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i think quite a few people in glitched play on dolphin

plush furnace
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Also that box is the final boss, will never convince me otherwise

flat abyss
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I think egg does and they are pretty good

plush furnace
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Egg plays on VC

flat abyss
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ah, i stand corrected

plush furnace
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Fortress plays on dolphin

flat abyss
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AH, got them mixed up

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I played a few seeds of no logic on PJ64, not the end of the world

timber ore
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It's not that kind of pause buffering that's the problem is it? It's the kind where you are trying to frame advance, that's more difficult right?

flat abyss
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ya, emu makes it harder to frame advance. not impossible but harder

plush furnace
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Nothing mentioned thus far other than pot push would require frame advance buffering imo

flat abyss
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very few glitches actually require pause buffering

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and "require" is a loose term

light arrow
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I'll be the first to admit I don't know the specifics of a lot of glitches, but I know that people would be like "wow pause buffering is so much better on VC" whenever they switched

plush furnace
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dolphin is VC

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it is a wii emulator

light arrow
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Yeah, so Dolphin/VC, either or. But Dolphin has some lag that VC doesn't have.

plush furnace
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Every emulator or console has pros/cons though. Pause buffering isnt impossible on emulator even ones not dolphin. Nothing proposed should require frame advances, or if it starts that way can over time go to unbuffered

lime citrus
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aljl the pause buffering techniques that are banned i've performed on emu just fine

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it takes some practice to figure out how to frame advance but its not impossible

plush furnace
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^

lilac kayak
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It’s a different timing, that’s really it

light arrow
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If most glitches are comfortably doable without then I guess it doesn't really matter, anyway. I was just under the impression there's a decent number of glitches that are much more doable with it from watching glitched speedruns and randos

flat abyss
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like anything there is a practice curve but thats no different than learning how to ground jump or KZ skip or anything really

woeful void
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400+ messages ago, but I see you.

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the problem with the shadow crusher clip is that it's just incredible easy to do, and a lot of glitchless runners have (apparently) had runs rejected because the damage boost to the top turns into clipping into it.

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but I would love to see the damage boost allowed and the clip banned

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KZ clip as adult is allowed in ice% and is lots of fun and an easy clip to learn. I'd allow it.

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or if you didn't want to allow glitches, go the other way. I'd ban flame storage, let people do the torches in child spirit without it.

modest pine
hidden sand
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Why is something being easy bad?

woeful void
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not swimming into the endless void takes practice

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but dielser is also right, many things in this game are easy xD

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though I agree this is the only instance of out of bounds

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any% glitchless allows glitchlessly going out of bounds, maybe we should try that?

dawn oar
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so you're adding potential confusion to the ruleset without much gain since all you do is turn a easy-ish trick into an extra easy one

hidden sand
dawn oar
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I agree. but I can sort of see the point that if you make the ruleset more confusing it should come with benefits that are worth the downside, and maybe a slightly easier variant of one skip isn't worth it

hidden sand
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Yeah. I see this is as more of a ruleset issue. Which I won’t open that can of worms here.

crisp roost
lilac kayak
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My fellow glitchless hundo runner

woeful void
lime citrus
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And infinitely boosts explosives power which don’t need it

woeful void
lime citrus
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I’d have to find the list, I found before

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Gy crate is one though

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Technically shadow temple pad as well, but that’s a seam walk

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If we’re talking for the ruleset and not just tourney…skipping weird egg is another

viscid rover
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not an item skip but isn't there a dboost to get to barinade without beating big octo?

lime citrus
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Yes

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I think you can get to valley crate as well

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You can do DC as child with damage boost to avoid sling. and the lizalfos fight

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all the applications are hard to find since only the ones used int he speed runs are well documented

modest pine
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What if we say: D-boost is allowed from enemies

lime citrus
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that doesn't get you anything

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except it does allow you to skip big octo still

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biri hover was banned because its a damage boost

modest pine
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what are you dboosting from in Jabu?

lime citrus
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bolero song is another dboost

modest pine
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what are you damage boosting from in DMC?

lime citrus
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bombs

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we don't need more exceptions in the ruleset especiallys ince saying you can only dboost of enemies doesn't accomplish anything

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you can also dboost in Fire to skip a key

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but yeah theres a ton of dboosts if you just search it in youtube

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you can dboost across gv bridge as well

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But yeah i think i listed enough for chuckles 😛

flat abyss
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What key in fire are you skipping? The lower maze?

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Think that's the trick with hovers and chus if I recall

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Nvm, hovers and bomb as well

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Recoil flip if my notes are correct

plush furnace
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damage boosts allow all of shadow to be done without hover boots

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so you're essentially making hover boots non-essential

flat abyss
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You can make the gap with a boost?

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I thought it was only a megaflip

plush furnace
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the first gap just use hookshot as per normal

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damage boosts are pretty OP, they're quite useful

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glitchless though 🙂

flat abyss
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I did not know that was a thing

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I don't think anyone wants hoverless shadow to ever be a thing in standard lol

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Dins I can understand getting around, but hovers feels wrong

plush furnace
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since big octo was brought up

lime citrus
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skip bow and that key

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does require a big chest though i think

plush furnace
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and hover boots

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used a bit in bingo

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you can also do this with a recoil hoverslide fwiw

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of all of these tho, shadow would be the most impacted. The rest of the applications were already brought up. Like crossing GV bridge with hookshot extenstion

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bolero pot push

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graveyard hp is kind of meh

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fire skipping keys can be done with existing strats if they were re-allowed and skip further keys

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so you'd only really be adding the ability to skip hover boots in shadow temple. The rest were discussed already

modest pine
plush furnace
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I agree with Jay that exceptions are not recommended

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if you damage boosts from enemies you could get the ice cavern chests ZeldaShrug

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there will be ways to work around that conditional

modest pine
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wait, what Ice cavern chest, wouldn't that just be a timesave for using blue fire, if it is even faster.
I believe:
You are allowed to damageboost from enemies
doesn't sound like an exception to me, bombdboosting is just stupid and definitly not in the scope of standard

plush furnace
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what is the scope of standard then

plush furnace
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you could make a strat with the poe for a damage boost to the graveyard HP

modest pine
plush furnace
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can you not call it stupid?

modest pine
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I wonder how feasable the gy hp would be

plush furnace
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given time and someone wanting to try it out, people can be dedicated in making setups for anything

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you still didnt answer why it's out of scope

modest pine
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It removes item requirements, skips major parts of dungeons, it will be used anywhere and will change rando up too much, I don't think that's what standard needs right now to be more attractive

plush furnace
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since when did standard need to be more attractive? it's literally the most played ruleset

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also the rest of that are opinions that are untested. Which was the whole point of trying some of these out

modest pine
plush furnace
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just because something "doesnt looks glitchy" is why it would be allowed?

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lol ok

modest pine
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It's one of the reasons and also in the rule change I wouldn't be opposed to test out

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The only thing that Jaybone mentioned was like a barihover, is that done with bombs or not

plush furnace
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feel free to search and explore to expand your knowledge

modest pine
lime citrus
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I’m against allowing one type of damage boost but not another

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Even the way you put it is an exception you are saying you’ll allow dboosts on enemies but not on anything else

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You either allow dboosts or not and I’d say they shouldn’t be allowed

modest pine
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There is no way there will be bomb dboosts allowed in standard, but damage boost from enemies could be something that actually has a chance in my eyes to be actually explored and test with

lime citrus
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I don’t see any benefit to it other than to cause confusion

wraith drift
lilac kayak
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yeah true you could technically hess from the jump attack

plush furnace
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not a hess, damage hoverslide

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Or recoil

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unless you mean hess anywhere else but even then it’s niche and only specific enemies can do that

woeful void
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Changing the ruleset to globally add glitches/tricks/tech comes with a big issue for me

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Whilst we can try and document as many cases of a use as possible (for example, use talking about damage boosting now), for sure stuff will be missed off and lots of things could be found that wasn't documented. A very minor similarity was when peaks were introduced in csmc.

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This might lead to "uncompetitive" advantages when in tournament mode

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I'm no way saying this is too big of a problem to consider changes, I'd love to see some changes, but attempts to add global allowances could lead to side effects if the ruleset isn't tested for a significant amount of time

wintry tinsel
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The fact that there's a difference between "the tricks you need to know to be able to complete a seed" and "the tricks we expect you to know if you play in tournaments" bothers me immensely.
For a newer player, "you don't know B1 skip so you have to do AD for slingshot" is an extreme feel bad moment, that may well put them off racing entirely. It is on an entirely different order of magnitude to "you don't know B1 skip, so you have to go around the long way". The communication of "this trick is not in logic so you don't need to know it" feels flat out incorrect, and anyone who claims they make their tournament more accessible by not putting certain tricks in logic is kidding themselves.
If a trick that skips item requirements is allowed, I'd much prefer for that trick to be put in logic, simply for the clarity of communication to newer players. I can understand if you don't want to do that because of the logic implications, but accessibility is a very bad argument for keeping these tricks out of logic
Not all that relevant for S8, but if putting certain tricks in logic means you feel that your tourney would become inaccessible for the players you want to attract, then you're probably better off banning that trick in the first place, or even requiring that the item being skipped is in your possession.

proud viper
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disagree in the strongest possible terms: most of what makes logic reading interesting at all is the existence of sequence breaks

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to the extent that the trick list does include certain things, and periodically changes, it's generally because the resulting bait woth/path hints are difficult to understand (GTG lens logic, DC ranged weapon logic)

crisp roost
proud viper
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"I disagree" does not communicate the level to which I will lose interest in racing if we decide to add all the "expected" stuff to the trick list, and this is not just because I'm a clown whose personal trick list is weirdly shorter than it should be

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like we do a lot of argument about minor settings things that don't really matter in the scheme of things. this is not one of those times.

crisp roost
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To me, it just came across as slightly aggressive and unnecessary. I know that was definitely not your intention, but we want to make sure people feel they can express their thoughts without being harshly criticised.

proud viper
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and I am very specifically not making this personal

crisp roost
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I know you aren't, but we can't read tone through text.

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And fwiw, i do agree with your opinion on the topic.

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The tricks that have been selected have been picked for a reason, usually for interesting logical implications or to avoid horrible bait paths.

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We certainly cannot make the tournament more accessible for newer players at the expense of making it a worse experience for the top players.

proud viper
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also fwiw I don't have a strong opinion on enabling the B1 skip trick, which is the one that we've talked about recently, particularly if we stick to closed deku

crisp roost
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B1 skip i agree has near zero implications for being added to the trick list. The best counter argument i've heard for this is that we would be forcing new players to learn this one, rather than strongly encourage them to. Something we will have to consider.

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Some people also like bait paths, but i don't think this one is worthwhile for a bait path.

lime citrus
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At the end of the day this is the main tourney

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I think adding it is fine

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If we were talking weeklies it would be a different story imo

crisp roost
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Thing is weeklies and a lot of other tournies will probably follow suit in their next iteration if we made the change.

lime citrus
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Eh that’s not necessarily true

crisp roost
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The trick list is largely the same across all standard tourneys.

proud viper
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there's the ~3 months of the year where weeklies just adopt the main tournament ruleset and settings (leading to "is KZ skip allowed" questions forever despite the communication being fairly consistent that it was disallowed specifically for S6 and not other formats)

crisp roost
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That would be another issue yeah. Just overall confusion flopping back & forth.

lime citrus
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The tricks that you have on as you mentioned are to avoid bait and some really obscure logic (gold scale to beat forest) adding b1 in logic is not something I’d see everything adopting

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Especially scrubs which is a tourney designed around beginners. Yes I’m fairly confident everyone in the scrubs tourney knew b1 skip, but you can’t guarantee that

crisp roost
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Agree with that one for sure

wintry tinsel
# proud viper disagree in the strongest possible terms: most of what makes logic reading inter...

Perhaps my word choice was slightly off. As I mentioned, I can understand this reasoning for keeping things like B1 skip out of logic. For me, that's less relevant, as I'm not at that level of logic reading, but fair.

But I do strongly feel we have a communication problem for newer players. Tricks like B1 skip, KZ skip, mido skip, that allow you to avoid item requirements are required knowledge to play in tournaments where they're allowed, but are rarely communicated as such.

Worse, I saw others earlier in this tread argue the opposite way: that these tricks should be kept out of logic to allow players who don't know them to compete. Which IMO is a very bad argument.

wintry tinsel
proud viper
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that's the thrust of the discussion around weekly races: weekly races should be kept accessible to new players so that they can finish the seed at all. not so that they can win without knowing them.

crisp roost
wintry tinsel
proud viper
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you don't, though? as a newer player in a big race, you're setting goals other than winning

wintry tinsel
proud viper
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I still feel that way sometimes!

crisp roost
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Most newer players come from scrubs, and at least to my knowledge, those tricks are communicated as basically "need to know" tricks. If that's not true, lmk and i'll pass that feedback on.

modest pine
proud viper
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and then eventually you get to the point where you're doing the same things as a top player in the same order and still losing 30 minutes to basic movement. game's hard.

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I am not exaggerating that number by the way

modest pine
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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H3du848yKLXV_lugvxYBf0JXlgCe_vyXuPzUx8A4bsw/edit#gid=0
This was a trick list released by the gossip stone podcast that categorizes some tricks that are vital for rcaing or just a short timesaver

Google Docs
OOTR Trick Tier List

Sheet1

S,A,B,C,D
Must Know To Compete,Almost Everyone Does This,Worthwhile in the Arsenal,Cool, but Niche,Just Not Worth
LW Mido Skip,ZD KZ Skip,SFM Maze Jump,Goron Pot with Chus,DC KD with Chus
Reverse HW,DC Eyes with Chus,Naked Forward HW,Zora River Jumps,Jabu Box Skip
Deku B1 Skip,Forest Bloc...

crisp roost
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Not sure how the ZR jumps ended up such low ranked, but everything else i agree with.

proud viper
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I have a bunch of quibbles with that list but most people at a top 64 level know most everything on there anyway

halcyon rain
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I think those should be split up into two different table rankings because there are tricks which just speed up the gameplay without any logical implication and the other which actually do

proud viper
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yeah definitely the second category is more important

wintry tinsel
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I'm mostly thinking about races against opponents who are relatively evenly matched with the newer player. So my argument is far more relevant for things like scrubs and weeklies, and less so for S8.

That being said, if I can summarize the discussion:

  • incoherent argued that weekly races should have these tricks out of logic so new players can finish the seed at all.
  • I disagreed, arguing that the tricks are required to such an extend, that you might as well put them in logic.
  • Little Schulzy and Hyper countered that new players are going to realize that the tricks are required and will learn them.

Which kind of is exactly my point? On the one hand, we're communicating that you don't need to learn these tricks, on the other we're communicating that you definitely do need to know these tricks.

proud viper
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there is a very large difference between "you need these to finish the seed at all" and "you need these to be competitive"

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you also need to know good backwalk angles, roll timings, boss quick kills, etc. in order to be competitive

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but nobody is communicating that either

wintry tinsel
# proud viper but nobody is communicating that either

There is also a huge difference between "your execution is worse, so you're consistently ending up X minutes behind this opponent" and "you don't know this one trick, so once in a while you'll stand no chance whatsoever against someone you're otherwise closely matched against"

proud viper
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yes, the first one tilts me way more than the second

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I understand not everyone will share that opinion

wintry tinsel
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Interesting, for me the first one is a matter of "just get better", whereas the second one is extremely frustrating, especially if communication has been that settings have been chosen to allow me to play

proud viper
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I am trying to make you understand what is being communicated when people say that a trick is "not required" in logic

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maybe there is a better way we can communicate this to others as well

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additionally, your original question is why these tricks aren't in logic, which I (in a somewhat pointed way) answered for you

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(specific example: Mido skip often gives you a lot of logical information, which would be gone if the trick is enabled)

wintry tinsel
viscid rover
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I felt similarly to sableheart as a new runner like five or six years ago and now I agree with inco in the strongest possible terms. Adding more tricks into logic doesn't help new runners learn them or make seeds more interesting. It just makes the logic more flat. There's a ton of resources on important tricks and skips, including some that I've made, and I think any new runner who isn't aware of the importance of things like Mido skip or reverse wasteland will figure it out pretty quickly after it comes up in a race and they lost a ton of time to it.

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The simple fact is that this is a hard and complicated game that takes time and practice and deliberate effort to get good at. If new runners expect to do really well immediately, they're just wrong.

crisp roost
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Not only does it make the logic more flat, but it actually makes the hints even more confusing for newer players.

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Some of them anyway

viscid rover
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yeah imagine a requiem path for gtg access

formal egret
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Even as a new runner the tricks out of logic were what attracted me to OOTR - I could see the potential in using them to dive into the logic and that got me excited

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B1 Skip in logic is under discussion for an entirely different tournament goal (condensed seed with actual prize money on the line), and for that goal removing slingshot paths is a valid discussion. For showing off OOTR at its best with a side order of “and you can try too”, the heavy logic element has to be able to shine

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Also re: B1 - the thing that made me feel comfortable learning it was finding a tutorial from Coy (very good ALTTPR runner, that was where I started) where he lead off with saying he’s been working on it for 30 minutes before getting it. The initial learning curve for OOTR tricks is steep but everyone goes through it and once you get about 80% of the way through it you’re not going to be held back by tricks

lucid flame
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im amazed someone would put pixelshot in fire as "just not worth"

modest pine
lucid flame
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in s7 if you didnt draft it, every past main tourney

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it wasnt until like the last year that it became a thing

formal egret
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If you're trying to pick up things quickly, it's definitely got a much more punishing difficulty to benefit ratio

lucid flame
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unless its going to be on all the time, i wouldnt quite put that trick in just not worth lol

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but this is also nitpicking at the high end

formal egret
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I'd go with cool but niche in the long term, but in the short term it's ok to let go - you'll just have to plan Pierre better.

crisp roost
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I was pleasantly surprised at how much easier pixel shot was than i thought it was going to be.

formal egret
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It's not that bad, but it's so tilting when you're having an off day

lucid flame
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theres some great setups for it

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and then hopefully you have a good sensitivty setting if youre on emu

viscid rover
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cries in keyboard

lucid flame
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just channel your inner fmz

crisp roost
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Especially with pretty sensitive stick control, i really put off learning it for a very long time.

viscid rover
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yeah i know it's technically possible, just have never been able to pull it off

lucid flame
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i cant imagine trying it on keyboard lol

formal egret
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pixelshot is nice but not even close to on the same level as the SFM maze jump (which saves you time and headaches almost every seed)

viscid rover
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the standard setups aren't possible, i know favio has a weird hs extension thing he's created but i can't get it to work

crisp roost
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I think it's wild that people even play this game on keyboard. Mad respect.

formal egret
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That's my summer project now, I'm gonna finally learn keyboard

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been threatening to for ages

cosmic musk
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Get an open source gamer rectangle with tilt modifiers and edit the firmware to have the tilt modifier give you ess position

viscid rover
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i never intended to be a keyboard player, i just was gonna do it until i could get a proper setup and a capture card. five + years later, here we are LUL

formal egret
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I play Crystal on keyboard and it's so gentle on my hands, 10/10 for me

hot root
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Just want to call this to attention: #1250785587229626439 message

With this in mind, we would request that conversations be more focused on standard-legal tricks and logic changes people would be interested in the effects of (which has been largely what's happened today)

Everyone is, of course, more than welcome to continue discussing glitches- we want to learn more and want to emphasize that glitches are not off the table indefinitely. While the ruleset is a large determining factor, learning the nuances will take more time than we can reasonably dedicate prior to the tournament 🙂

lilac kayak
dawn oar
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I don't think it's meant to be not worth using, just not worth learning as long as you've got basically anything else to focus on learning instead

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also what about disabling every trick. competely empty trick list. give the logic follower/breaker fans something extra to work with

crisp roost
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Welcome to League S1

lilac kayak
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yeah lol "man on roof"

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people will riot

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funny enough, knowing that check required hookshot in league s1 helped me find my hook exactly one time

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@woeful void please resize column b in this spreadsheet, I am losing my mind in vc lol

woeful void
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this list should be considered alongside the episode of the podcast this is associated with (episode 41) 👀

lilac kayak
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okay cool I'll yell at droo as well

proud viper
woeful void
modest pine
wraith drift
modest pine
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dang you tektite, destroying my dreams

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the sad thing is that I think enemy damage boost could be in the realm of standard, all the others I saw up to this point looked cool and just some weird small timesaves or getting like a skull out of logic

wraith drift
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Yeah the thing with ootr is that the game is so breakable that if you allow one thing it always opens a huge can of worms

flat abyss
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esp when you start only allowing a piece of something like that. then people will explore and find new ways to break it

cosmic musk
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acute angles 👀

woeful void