Right now there is no reason (except laziness) to not clone someone, it may take some time but other than that it's a free refresh of all damage. There's not much point in trying to properly revive a dead crewmate when cloning currently is typically a lot easier and quicker to do. Let's discuss some potential ideas on how to balance cloning and to make it less powerful.
#Ideas on how to balance cloning.
mellow gull
I think giving geneticists a larger role when it comes to cloning would be nice, whether that have to like scan for intact DNA that the scanner can use to clone or they have to try to remove nasty mutations that would normally occur from cloning.
Having the cloner have a base cost to clone someone instead of building people from thin air would probably be good too. Something like a biomass that is required and can be acquired from other dead bodies by like grinding them down, or maybe it can be gotten from special plants that botany can grow or something idk.
I'll try to scour some different wikis and see what other SS13 codebases actually do for cloning or maybe we could try removing it entirely and having different ways of reviving people like TG seems to have done.
wheat palm
Here's some things that could turn cloning into a last resort mechanic:
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Cloning should have a limited amount of slots that needs to be recharged by a geneticist. That way players don't constantly throw dead bodies in the cloner and call it a day, and instead do their job.
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Cloning damage is a lot harder to heal on SS13 and requires twice as much time to heal and recover from. Doctors would require to actually spend time healing a body and attempting to revive it via CPR/Defib before attempting to clone the body.
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Cloning causes brain damage, memory loss, mutations, sicknesses and debuffs to bodies. All of these are gambles doctors can take to ensure the survival of someone during an emergency but hampers the patient's ability in some way or another, brain damage being the most negative effect you can receive from cloning damage as it literally makes it difficult for the patient to interact with everything around them and communicate.
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A chance to get cloned with a missing limb or organ.
mellow gull
I've checked a couple wikis it seems Bee Station is like ours but cloning gives cell damage, paradise station requires biomass and gives the clones a lot of damage, and I think yog station just requires biomass. I might be wrong though I've never played original SS13 so someone else might know better how to works on different codebases.
mellow gull
Here's some things that could turn cloning into a last resort mechanic:
- Cloni...
Yeah I like all of those they sound good.
I think it could be interesting to have cloning be a more "active" process instead of just make sure you got everything, scan, clone and wait. Maybe having a geneticist having to supervise the entire process and maybe actually "build" the person would be interesting.
bronze kestrel
just use blood magic
crimson needle
Well I think that we should keep it as it is for now as it would be a pain for low pop
Its not like you have a good chance of getting cloned right now if you die
But when we get higher pop I think might be cool to make cloning not bring you back to life
Instead cloning a new body that you would have to then put a brain in
bronze kestrel
Maybe a inversely scaling difficulty in clone time per person alive on station
explain it through a life link system or something, puts more strain on the cloning systems
mellow gull
Instead cloning a new body that you would have to then put a brain in
That’s a cool idea
tidal trail
i'd rename the cloning pod to the more general Bio-Reconstruction Pod or BioPod and make it a very slow healing machine at base tech level, upgradeable into a more potent regenerator/error-prone and debuff-inducing cloner and then finally into a flawless cloner at the end of the tech tree.
something like:
lv. 1: slow heal
lv. 2: can also regrow lost limbs if head+brain+torso present
lv. 3: can regrow all other body parts (with debuffs) if brain present
lv. 4: can clone from DNA with debuffs
lv. 5: can clone from DNA w/ no debuffs
lv. 6: can augment/overheal?!?!
^ there's some branching/parallel tech tree possibilities here as well
a basic health regenerator pod would be a nice-to-have for a sec department, syndicate ship, or rest stop in a dangerous awaysite
tidal trail
you could have one tech track for healing/growth speed, one for precision/error correction, and one for sophistication (how many body parts it can rebuild from how little intact material)
bronze kestrel
so either med items get a buff or the regen is very expensive to mass produce
tidal trail
i think it's quite balanceable
bronze kestrel
engineering would have a field day
crimson needle
Not a real good way to take cloning
tidal trail
i agree lowpop needs cloner w/o headache
crimson needle
Cloning should be a last resort
bronze kestrel
Perhaps a increasing power requirement?
tidal trail
right--make it require investment before it eclipses conventional medicine
bronze kestrel
yea
crimson needle
I think the idea of making it a pain to clone people is a better way
By adding in more steps
But also make it engaging
tidal trail
like 3-4 steps of research and actually upgrading the bioreconstruction pod kind of steps?
crimson needle
i'd rename the cloning pod to the more general Bio-Reconstruction Pod or BioPod ...
This is just pop them in and leave
bronze kestrel
perhaps have the cloning and healing part have to combine to make the regen
tidal trail
say at start it can't stabilize a dying person OR heal above 1/2 health
crimson needle
like 3-4 steps of research and actually upgrading the bioreconstruction pod kind...
Thats entertaining for R&D
And engineering
But med should have something engaging to do
tidal trail
so if the medics overrely on it, crew will hang around medbay and whine
bronze kestrel
like base cloning requires a ton of steps but the more advanced your tech is the faster it is, until you can create the regeneration machine
tidal trail
yes, they still have to actually heal people
because they didn't start with a cloner 😛
bronze kestrel
like centrifuges and better scanners
crimson needle
because they didn't start with a cloner 😛
That does not work well for nukie rounds
tidal trail
speed, precision, lack of cloning debuffs, range of what can be regrown.... these are all independently adjustable variables
bronze kestrel
we aren’t balancing for nukies
crimson needle
Well we need to consider them
bronze kestrel
yea
tidal trail
and also researchable advanced healing meds, and zany magic plants from time to time...
tidal trail
well, should cloning be full-on accessible and usable from roundstart?
bronze kestrel
also, you probably would start with basic cloning using cell growth tanks that take like 5 mins to grow a person
then you can upgrade from there
crimson needle
But when we get higher pop I think might be cool to make cloning not bring you b...
Idealy yes
But make it so you need to clone the body
Then input the brain through surgery
That way med has something to do
And its not just pop them in and forget
tidal trail
or fixing DNA errors in the cloning process
so the person doesn't come out with 80% max health and missing an arm
that's a potential cloner minigame for med personnel
crimson needle
If we are going with cloning as it is
crimson needle
so the person doesn't come out with 80% max health and missing an arm
That would be the best way
bronze kestrel
ye
tidal trail
the idea of having to recover someone's body/head/brain/a DNA sample is appealling
ofc as long as you have a dna scanner you should be able to scan ppl
crimson needle
Make it so upgrades only make the process faster
tidal trail
but being able to USE their DNA alone to heal them should be an upgrade
crimson needle
And keep the errors
tidal trail
i also think the more of someone's body you still have, the better for both speed and recovery from the Pod
bronze kestrel
yea
tidal trail
dead guy's body should be easier to revive than if every last bit of them is destroyed, including the brain, and you're rebuilding them from nothing at all
(not to mention faster)
bronze kestrel
perhaps even at the later stages a portable regen tank
slow but can be used to prevent someone from dying while you get them to the medibay
crimson needle
Actually making perma deaths more common would be fine
tidal trail
but there should be a threshold where you have to upgrade the cloner to even attempt to work from only a brain or a DNA scan
tidal trail
Actually making perma deaths more common would be fine
yeah, this too. in a lot of cases, it's kind of better that someone move on to a ghost role
bronze kestrel
traitors should be able to hack or disrupt the process to some extent
crimson needle
Instead cloning a new body that you would have to then put a brain in
This would also make perma deaths more common
And allow command roals to be revived
As med staff would have to spend their time wisely
bronze kestrel
Maybe having the surgery interface be more intuitive first would help
tidal trail
but there should be a threshold where you have to upgrade the cloner to even att...
this doesn't have to be a hard programmed limit--it could be an emergent part of whatever the pod operator DNA error correction minigame is. it could be as simple as a chance to guess a value correctly, with the chance of success being unreasonably low before the upgrades
crimson needle
Maybe having the surgery interface be more intuitive first would help
Its intuitive
More so then most ss13 servers
bronze kestrel
pretty sure you aren’t told that Alt is the button to activate it
crimson needle
Not much of a problem when tutorials are up
bronze kestrel
I meant easier to access but it is slightly obtuse
tidal trail
And allow command roals to be revived
yeah, it's probably a good sign if med personnel will bust out the cloner for the HoS or captain but are hesitant to use it on regular personnel
^ as to how the costs and whatnot are balanced
bronze kestrel
you know the blue space clown enemies?
maybe have the process possibly result in something like that if the process goes to shit
tidal trail
does the 'memory loss' rule re: cloning apply to any death or only full brain death?
seems weird to have a UI message about IC/OOC stuff but i'd have it pop up only if the brain is reconstructed
crimson needle
That rule is not used most of the time
crimson needle
As admins are not on most of the time
tidal trail
players are not on most of the time ehehe
bronze kestrel
maybe have a effect where inventory slots fail to show up sometimes
or messages are lost from the chatlog
tidal trail
but those are pockets in clothes
bronze kestrel
have you ever forgotten your keys in your pocket
tidal trail
there are effects that distort what ppl see in chat right?
like whether your character knows the language a message is in,
comms disruptions
bronze kestrel
Yes
tidal trail
i'm sure there's a health effect for 'messed up in brain'
ahh, a good base-level function for the pod: just pause any ongoing sources of damage--basically freeze the metabolism of whoever's in the pod
doesn't heal but buys time and keeps the person from getting worse/dying
bronze kestrel
yes
tidal trail
it's also kind of ok if healing/cloning pods get more efficient/convenient than conventional medicine when upgraded, cause the machines can still be damaged/destroyed/emagged and the power can still go out/be saboutaged
emagged cloner: can be set to dissolve someone into goo
grave pivot
mellow gull
Lol
tidal trail
AI, Condense and Summarize
mellow gull
uhhh
idk i can summarize what i brought up
which was just like taking some of the cloning stuff from ss13 or just making it a more hands on process where geneticists have to actually like build the person during the cloning process or they have to be actively removing negative debuffs otherwise cloning makes you suck
bronze kestrel
Alternative idea, lock large amounts of the overpowered cloning behind research, allowing for very rudimentary cloning and preservation tanks
mellow gull
idk i feel like theres already enough for science to do and that cloning gameplay stuff should be given to medical