#PAINKILLER: NEO
quaint lagoon
valid rapids
first question, is the LLM one you created and did you get permission from every person you scraped from to use their work?
quaint lagoon
I didn't create the LLM
valid rapids
you as in general you, the company
not you personally
okay, found your legal
so my general guess is going to be "no"
ChatGPT definitely doesn't get permission from where it scrapes either
quaint lagoon
no. I used the readily available tools to people who take shortcuts to make and educational model to have better discussions as an attempt
I have a deep respect for artists and they should be compensated for their work more than people who speculate on it
valid rapids
I simply asked whether or not you had permission to use the art or words the AI scrapes from, your website tells me it doesn't, that kinda just tells me what I need to know about it. thanks
haughty cloud
fun fact: saying "no copyright infringement is intended" does not in anyway absolve of legal repercussions if you have been found to have violated copyright
what it does do is make it look like you know that it is likely, which makes it worse from a legal standpoint
anyhoo, i do not believe this server has an offiical policy regarding AI generated content yet, so i have made enquiries as to where Romero Games stands on the matter
quaint lagoon
I like the idea of getting ahead of the shortcut people and seeing how hedges against it can keep quality and revenue to real creators --- I'm out of energy to be mad at what's forecasted
Thought about using diffusion to hide info and/or protect in some capacity from ingestion. There's other protections groups can take to become an inconvenient outlier to models potentially. I make this because I don't have answers and I'm curious - I'm happy to work to modify it so that it achieves the purpose of a pre-dialogue to the AI game requests that some major publishers are putting out
valid rapids
Start by not using AI
alternatively, build your own LLM with images that you have sourced & licensed. I'm sure there are artists who would be okay with it if you asked
I also noticed that you used AMV's as part of the website marketing - hopefully you got permission to use those
quaint lagoon
You are completely right
valid rapids
I want to emphasize my problem isn't with the concept but the way that it's been gotten to. Part of respecting art is getting permission for all the work you use to market something if it wasn't made by you. If you got permission, great! But I know OpenAI has indescrimintely scraped and therefore you cannot guarantee permissions are available for what has been produced. I don't know about Fotor because they don't really explain what's in their LLM but I would be cautious about using this. I also read the PDF and while you claim not to be for profit, you're definitely getting money from somewhere to do all these promotional concerts. If it was just something you were making w/ AI and then throwing up on the net for free it'd be one thing, but another when you're talking about a large marketing budget
anyways, I wish you luck I guess
quaint lagoon
I agree this is absolute hack work.
I needed to make something in a weekend that didn't have NDAs.
I sometimes follow rabbit holes based on the information I have at hand to better understand challenges with others. I want to be mad, but that hasn't stopped speculation winning almost everytime. The goal is to help us create a more informed conversation before people with money do. It takes time for money men to hype each other up to get their grifts on. Please attack this idea as much as possible or recommend ideas. It's not personal to me. The people that make things are personal for me and the research I feel is unfortunately necessary to build better defenses.
valid rapids
I agree this is absolute hack work.
I needed to make something in a weekend th...
I agree this is absolute hack work.
I needed to make something in a weekend that didn't have NDAs.
So wait - was that PDF a legitimate pitchdeck or just something you made as an experiment? I'm genuinely confused at the purpose of doing all this. I work in an indie company (not for Romero but for a different company) and we read pitchdecks/whitepapers specifically to help expand on good ideas. but if that isn't the purpose of this work - what is it?
Also the company - TallyHo Industries Inc - has a website that simply links to a BABYMETAL playlist when you hit the "Get Started" button- the only link on the site. I'm beyond confused what is happening with this. did you make the company up in a day as well?
I'd maybe bring this forward to a smaller test group of people who actually understand what you want, instead of throwing it into a random Discord. Because the way this is presented in the OP is that it's an actual creative endeavor that you want funded, not a way to get feedback on the intricacies of LLMs.
btw, there are game companies already using AI in their work to limited degrees of success. if you are actually interested in getting their insight I would maybe bring this concept to one of them
quaint lagoon
Its art on the internet, it's non-directional and experimental. It's the same way I felt making AMVs in 1999 of StaticX x Akira or DBZ x System of a Down. Does every creation need an economic purpose?
All of this is to mimic a AAA product pitch aided by AI like we might see someone pitch that is pure vaporware taking dollars from people who did the grass roots work to bring a real product to market that needs a complex conversation to find the right community because it can happen more than it is. VC is on fumes and we are in a consolidation cycle. My hope is that all the smart/good actors can activate before the bad ones to create some level of stability during the projected fallout. I've been deep in the Embracer fallout and I don't like it. There's really awesome people in there that are dead in the water which isn't fair. 
valid rapids
you know how you can help people affected by the Embracer fallout? hire them and have them do art for you
I fail to see how using AI solves the problem you're talking about
quaint lagoon
I don't see myself as a creator.
I'm the unnecessary part in the middle that I continually try to automate to create draggles systems to remove.
It would be cool if game developers created a marketplace co-op managed/created for and by the people who make games. Could make the whole thing $1USD per game to stabilize creation sprints and keep the whole thing lean. It also lets emerging markets sell directly on their own websites in their market x add Swiss banking systems. Turkey, Brazil and Nigera are growing quickly. Some really cool games out of Turkey rn.
valid rapids
ah, so you're an ideas guy. great
quaint lagoon
I prefer to talk about ideas vs people. People are complicated.
valid rapids
yeah, and they're what make games great.
valid rapids
Its art on the internet, it's non-directional and experimental. It's the same wa...
it doesn't but you're intentionally missing my point here. you are putting monetary figures in your pitchdeck. you only pay a little bit of lipservice to the idea of "educating people about AI" in a single slide towards the end and you don't really explain how you actually plan to do that.
quaint lagoon
I don't plan to do any of this. It's a vaporware pitch by design
valid rapids
we have #🎮│games-general-chat for discussion about games & game design, game ethics, etc. maybe that would be a better place for getting the information you seek.
quaint lagoon
It said "your creations" /shrug
valid rapids
frankly, not being upfront with the fact that you don't actually plan to make this game (and you aren't upfront about this on your website either) may get you into trouble in the future with people. it's off-putting for people to invest their time into something they may genuinely find interesting only to find it's not actually a thing is not going to make you a lot of friends or even colleagues.
I get starting a discussion but misleading people just makes you look dishonest and daft
if you look at the rest of the threads on this forum you'll see it's projects people are actually working on & finishing
quaint lagoon
frankly, not being upfront with the fact that you don't actually plan to make th...
#🙋│introductions I have a few NDAs. I had to make anything to talk about remotely what I do for work for the last 20 years. During the process I put pins in where I had concerns and talk with people. Tried to talk to as many people as I could at Gamescom to really understand the marketplace currently
valid rapids
what?
you can literally just ask "what do you guys think about using AI to make games?"
that would not require breakage of NDAs and you'd get the information you want
I see these kinds of discussions day in & out on Twitter/Discord/social media in general.
quaint lagoon
I deleted Twitter/Facebook when they became ninjas for some reason. Some of us went to Thailand and trained. Same same right?
valid rapids
I genuinely can't tell if you're trolling or not, regardless I've made my points so do with that what you like.
quaint lagoon
I respect you and how you feel. I appreciate you for being honest with me. This is a much more valuable conversation than the one being had on social media to me.
The concept is emotionally exploring an area we shy away from when we talk about the gray area between the automations we currently use and the ones that will be integrated progressively under different names. I'm down for Farm to Table everything games and will cheer every creator doing that 100% everytime. What is the current reality and can people work together to change that? How can we create hope for more people to want to be in games for the art itself and be rewarded directly?
I'll just say it's a really complicated way to bookmark great AMVs 🤘 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1URxVJgHy4&t=6s
Happy to talk about things I don't have NDAs for and had all permissions for 🤔
I don't really want to talk about the past though. The microphone isn't what I want. Other people are more qualified for that. My past work can't generate future stability for my friends or others trying to create in an art medium we all care about
Could this be a place that leads the creator conversation around AI and provide information from your perspective on what the threshold is and how to have resources?
If you hardline, can your argument provide the resources to survive?
Xbox saying "Pitch Me" for their Indie interactions at Gamescom then this was just... a lot. And all the walls in the B2B area at Gamescom with the platforms are to keep indies out. https://kotaku.com/xbox-microsoft-xbox-ai-generated-1851128191
I spent money directly to people who were being displaced last year to try to get projects together. Most fizzled. We were able to save some houses and pay some bills. End of the day everyone learned/better, but I don't think the marketplace is healthy for creatives currently. I don't know how to fix it. But I'm expressing my emotions the best way I know how.
valid rapids
I'm not going to pretend I'm interested in attempting to solve all the problems AI has created for the industry, frankly the industry has enough problems with treating workers ethically before it ever got to the point of content theft.
I have just made a determination not to add to it
again, if you want to discuss philosphy, #🎮│games-general-chat is probably the better place for it
this forum is not the appropriate place to talk theory
quaint lagoon
I'm more than happy to do that. I don't want to make ripples. Thanks for being cool with me. I hope you know that I'm trying to pick the human side and then solve. $10/hr tester with no medical makes it hard to make ends meet. Pre-fired and told you are worth less than a dollar... we can do this all day
quaint lagoon
Roughly
tldr - complexities of integrating AI into creative processes, the ethical and legal ramifications, and the need for transparency and respect towards original creators and artists.
- Use of AI and Legal Concerns
- Ethical Implications
- Exploration of AI's Role in Creativity
- Concerns about Misleading Representations
- Discussion of AI in the Gaming Industry
- Personal Philosophies and Industry Challenges
quaint lagoon
Do you want to talk about the Discord Tarot bot we made? It's really fun. There's also no purpose other than something to make a day more interesting 😛 - You can load any art you want into it. It's just a few of us messing around with ideas to help indie discords. So hard to keep up the energy (not charging for it -- its a new CS guy we are cross training with DiscordJS)
We had bids at Xbox for the first HTML5 player for 10M USD. We were able to do it for like $50k and a guy who just got out of Ruby. That didn't make sense to anyone, but we had fun. It was learnings I had after they forced us all into Silverlight. The amount of tech I've been forced to use is wild ... like a CMS made from Excel (no joke) -- I really don't know how to make things better other than listen to metal super loud and try to make things more fun
I appreciate you having me here
quaint lagoon
I think it's going to be fun being a fan of the games for a while from the outside again. I'm finishing up a little more work for game stuff and then going to focus more on non profits.
One involves a Common Loon that crash landed in our yard here in NC. Rehabilitated it over three days and got it to a lake. Hopefully it makes it back up North again. There were no resources around here to help. Loons are also, very metal (yet can't walk on land)
tried a frozen one and was not about that (ate 80 live minnows once we found some)
