Terror drones need a rework

[inland flare]

Just to compare it to something in AR the tank destroyer, the allies' anti-armour vehicle, has none of these issues
The soviets aren't worried about TDs because they don't one shot vehicles, they aren't very fast, they have enough HP to stay in a fight, but they aren't good against infantry and can be destroyed by conventional means that everyone has at their disposal

Terror drones don't one shot vehicles, but they might as well in a lot of cases

[north hatch]

I remember that engineers were be able to removing the drone in the beginning of open beta before it was patched shortly after.

But I don't sure that repair as in IFV give any point. Maybe yes if they can destroy the drone.?

[inland flare]

Repair IFVs can already destroy drones in infected vehicles, yes

[north hatch]

No, I mean as it give a score point to player.

[inland flare]

That's not what i'm complaining about

Also, that post isn't me saying "these things should happen" it's me saying "here's some ideas about how to fix this"

[north hatch]

Nah, I just derail the topic too much. However, the drone jobs is to sabotage the line of tanks so screwing Repair is a tactics to deny allied field Repair which sov got barely none.

[inland flare]

I think the solution there is to give the soviets field repair, not screw over the allies' repair

And also solo players

[tranquil storm]

Terror drones are fine as they are tbh. People definatley are figuring out how to use them more effectively and keep them hidden from pings but this is going to happen as the game evolves. Giving them a melee instead of their infect would also be against what the unit does in RA2, and would encourage more vehicle bumping which is much more annoying and inconsistent than the current gameplay. Respect the drone and bring backup. It's a team game after all.

[inland flare]

Several problems with that, first of all

[tranquil storm]

I also wouldn't call it a hunter pounce.

[inland flare]

More like a jockey that doesn't move you around or disarm you

[tranquil storm]

Would you rather they did? Removing the infection will encourage that gameplay, make drone fights more inconsistent and overall be very janky

The melee will encourage vehicle bumping

And flipping, actually cc'ing the vehicle

[inland flare]

Honestly? I might go even further and say to remove it entirely, the drone seems like a bad idea for a game like this

[tranquil storm]

But its a key part of the Soviets ra2 arsenal.

Every other mainstay unit is present.

[inland flare]

Okay but this isn't RA2

It's AR

[tranquil storm]

It is Red Alert 2 Apocalypse Rising

[north hatch]

I see. the good ol question of RAism and Realism all over again

[inland flare]

Okay then replace it with a repair drone

[inland flare]

Nope, not realism, idc about that

I care that TDs are a pain in the ass to fight

[tranquil storm]

Fuck realism i wanna play as my funny green goo man

Anyway they are designed to be a pain and require extra effort to deal with, just gotta keep your head on a swivel and point them out like a tf2 spy, a hunter or any other assassin style thing.

They are a disruption tool

If you get caught out, you get caught out

Leave the vehicle to its fate and reset

[inland flare]

Problem, those classes tend to be very weak and need to sneak up on an enemy in order to do anything, with terror drones, they're more like scouts in that they're just hard to hit more than anything and can just run over infantry that tend to be too weak to do significant damage

[north hatch]

Realism as implemented things that would not be expected from the OG game for the sake of the shooter experience rather than authentic experience. Not the war thunder kind of "Realism"

[inland flare]

No one uses realism like that

At least not that i've heard

"The Demolition Man had a tool we used in a bunch of maps that let him alter the map. He had a big bomb, he could go put it [somewhere], if it blew up before the enemy stopped it, it would destroy a wall and his team could get through. We didn't keep that concept in TF2 because we kept finding that it was a perfect example of everyone wanting someone else on the team to do that."

[...]

"At a design level, you were constantly torn between providing enough value to that [type of scenario] so that when someone does it, the team is rewarded and happy, but not such that everyone feels like, 'We're screwed if someone doesn't do it, but I don't want to do it, so I'm going to jump into Demoman, do it, then flip back to the class I actually want to play.' We didn't like making players make that kind of choice."
— https://www.shacknews.com/article/103827/threading-the-needle-the-making-of-quake-team-fortress

Anyway, this is a settled issue, forcing people to do something they don't want to do/that isn't fun is bad game design, no one uses repair IFVs because they aren't fun to use so either make them fun so people use them more or make terror drones not suck to fight

Basically, the TD is a hard counter and hard counters suck to fight, especially one this broad

[north hatch]

It's just me trying to do a bad pun, Apologies.

Let's rephrase this in a more longer format .

"Did players want Red Alert 2 : apocalypse rising to be a Red alert 2 game in the shooter format or A shooter game with the Red alert 2 flavor?"

[inland flare]

I don't think removing or reworking one unit is gonna hurt the game that much

I mean, we have the howitzer already and I don't see anyone saying that's ruining anything

[tranquil storm]

I see 1-3 Repair IFV's on the field at any point of the match once the resources are there. Support playstyles are less popular 100% but that goes for any game that has this style of Asymetry/class system. People don't mine the base and then type "?" When they lose a building, its not the most killtastic job but someone gotta do it or they will lose. Like tf2 medic. You have to work with what you get.

Or be the person who does so, but if you find it boring thats fine. But someone gotta do it

Same happens in Battlefield when everyone goes sniper and assault and the team with the best vehicle crew farms the lobby and wins the match

[north hatch]

Well, thing is. The drone is one of an iconic unit for Red Alert.

It's really different thing from artillery which is probably can be more excusable.

[inland flare]

Key problem there is that you keep drawing comparisons to Valve games
Valve made those fun
The Medic has uber, which is a key part of TF2's game design, it acts as a reward for healing and takes a lot of healing to do so and the special infected don't just leap on survivors, they attract hordes, block paths and act as boss fights

Also, yeah that happens in TF2 as well, and those games suck because people are being selfish and not caring about the team, but, I cannot stress this enough, none of these games you mentioned have hard counters as a core part of the design

And that is the issue

You can bang on about teamwork and skill level all you want
But you're missing the key issue and that's that hard counters suck to fight and TDs counter basically everything that doesn't do enough damage to stop it

[north hatch]

And I really, wish that AR would be more popular so that people opinion may be voices that which way they want AR to be?

They might be fine with the drone suggestions, who knows?

[tranquil storm]

I didn't just mention tf2 but yeah. I only referenced these games because you used the Hunter comparison. Also Sniper&Spy are a hard counters a lot of the time

[inland flare]

Yep, but spy is fun to fight because he has good counterplay
Sniper isn't because there's no real counterplay, you can't even dodge him sometimes

Something that AR doesn't have an issue with since you can indeed dodge snipers

[tranquil storm]

But they can still one shot people when they jump out and repair or kill infa below 250, they are similar prices and ultimately do similar things ones just more armour focused than the other. Terror Drones also don't kill everything all the time just like the sniper.

[inland flare]

Well, if you wanna compare the TD to spy, then maybe the change should be how the TD attacks, because the spy only instakills with backstabs, Valve even experimented with a facestab knife and, well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmcNoiGYRwE

(Former lost media btw)

[tranquil storm]

It isn't the spy tho

[inland flare]

You're the one who made the comparison

[tranquil storm]

Where did I say the Terror Drone was the spy

[inland flare]

I didn't say you said that, you said this

You're the one making the comparison

[tranquil storm]

I said it was an assassin type unit yeah rather than the spy. The spy was an example

[inland flare]

You're still comparing them

[tranquil storm]

Because they are assassins

[inland flare]

Yes

[tranquil storm]

You confusing tf out of me lol

[inland flare]

Buddy you painted yourself into this corner

[tranquil storm]

Im not in a corner?

[inland flare]

It's a metaphor

Anyway, terror drones suck to fight because they're a hard counter and lack any real counterplay beyond hoping a repair IFV is nearby if you get infected

Even in RA2 you can blow up your own vehicles to get rid of a TD because units can usually be replaced
But this is a shooter where you're dying and getting sent back to base down the credit value of your unit and potentially not having made them back in time because a TD ran at you

[north hatch]

Which begs the question that players really want to be more Red alert or to be more shooter?

[tranquil storm]

Do they want Asymetry or Battlefield

[tranquil storm]

You could trade value by going ggi and killing the TD, tagging your vehicle and bringing it to base defences/ other teammates vision. You trade the vehicle for the TD

You can survive yourself and run back to base or suicide and rebuild while the td is stuck in the vehicle

It can't cancel out the animation to give your vehicle to its allies

They would still have to run its hp down

I've tested this too, the hp drain doesn't stop if you get in as soviet. You can run it back to soviet base tho and kill the drone

Just like a sniper vehicle trade but with extra steps

[inland flare]

I've tested and gotten the opposite result, it does stop, but you have to take it to a service depot because the TD is just stuck until then

Also, that's not counterplay????????????

At all???????

That's letting the enemy steal your stuff

[tranquil storm]

I stole an ifv last night that was abandoned and it almost killed it

It was ticking down while driving it to repair bay

[inland flare]

BF a few days ago, no HP drain but drone was stuck

I suspect some jank to be at play

[tranquil storm]

Not neccisarily but I get your point

[tranquil storm]

Could be

[inland flare]

No, it is letting the enemy steal your stuff

That's what you described

[tranquil storm]

Stealing is yeah, but abandoning it isn't necessarily. If I leave it infront of allied units they will stop and shoot it as the td pops out

[inland flare]

I think mine went straight from Allied to Soviet, so maybe that has something to do with it?

[tranquil storm]

The ifv went neutral its a possibility

Don't make sense for it to stop killing the vehicle to me personally

Never did stop dmg either in ra2 either, if you infected your own tank

[inland flare]

Yeah but you're still missing the problem, which is that it's a hard counter and those suck to fight because there's no way for you to fight back short of well, abandoning your vehicle which if you got something like a bf means 2000 credits down the drain that you won't be able to get back for a while

Plus it's 2000 vs 500 in that case and there's a massive imbalance of effort too

In order to kill a TD you have to:
Predict their movements
Aim well
Keep as much distance as possible between you and the TD

The TD has to:
Touch you and then wait for your vehicle to die or get repaired by a repair IFV or Service Depot

[tranquil storm]

In the case of the Battle Fortress I'd argue that you need the support to begin with as your a big slow target. Yeah if the TD infects it and kills it its a good trade 100% but if you had the support of a Repair IFV they wasted 500 and can keep wasting 500. Or even two BF's with an extra engi in each. As they can also do the same.

Again it just requires a bit of cooperation

[inland flare]

Okay, other problem
The soviets don't have to worry about anything like this from the allies, closest things the allies have are jets and tank destroyers, which do have counterplay even if jets feel similarly oppressive

[tranquil storm]

Or you could just double down on killing another unit that the Soviets have to make up the cost loss.

[inland flare]

Yeah lemme do that while i'm trying to make my way to the fight via a flank route and i'm nowhere near the fight yet and this random ass TD got me while I was trying to help my team but, nah, we have to leave this thing in because it's in the OG game

[tranquil storm]

If the TD caught you out on your own then it played its cards right. Same way as you mentioned with the jets. Also my phones about to die so I can't comment further for now

[inland flare]

Nope
No
You're just wrong here
The drone is punishing me for making a skilled play and trying to be a big part of the team fight

There is no good argument here, i'm just being punished for trying to flank, that's it

If anyone should be punished it should be the enemy for not watching their flanks, not me for taking advantage of an exposed flank

[eager pebble]

"Hoping you land your shots" is 100% a skill issue. I never have issues dealing with drones unless I'm way out of position and half the time I get infected I'm close enough to the depot to make it back.

[inland flare]

Yeah, but my issue is the lack of counterplay beyond that

[eager pebble]

There's a ton. Repair it out of your vehicle with a repair ifv. Communicate with your team that one is in the field.

Most allied units one-shot the poor thing. Also you can hear it coming from a mile away with its buzzing noise. If you got infected not in range of support while trying to flank ot means you got outplayed and outflanked.

[inland flare]

I guess the problem is that the interaction is all or nothing
Either the drone gets your vehicle or you get the drone

[eager pebble]

...your point? I could argue the same for the sniper, kirov, planes, most infantry

A good drone player is a menace. A bad one feeds the allies points

[inland flare]

With jets you get to shoot back and they have to go reload at the base, but the drone can keep going until someone kills it, which, if they can dodge well enough and can avoid groups then that can happen forever

[eager pebble]

Just like every other unit. The problem is people would rather abandon the vehicle to the drone than try and remove it. Also a ggi ifv one salvos it.

[eager pebble]

So can literally most other units

You aren't helping your case saying a skilled player can kill a lot

[uncut thicket]

trees are also a good counterplay when not in a vehicle

[inland flare]

Yeah i've not mentioned infantry much because the drone and infantry interaction feels good most of the time

[inland flare]

Well in those cases you can at least try to retreat, come at them from another angle, disengage entirely, shoot back, use cover
You can't do any of that against a TD that has infected your vehicle

All you can do is abandon the vehicle, drive it into water or hope a repair IFV or SD is nearby

[eager pebble]

So pay attention to your surroundings? Think of it like a sticky grenade. Once you are stuck you are pretty screwed, so don't get stuck. It literally can't do anything to bases, takes forever to finish a vehicle off and a halfway decent team will be ready to delete the drone when it pops out and a good team will repair it out.

Sounds to me like you just don't ever play on a good allied team that has repair support in the field and can't aim worth a dime.

Oh you know what else fits your complaint? Terrorists.

[inland flare]

Terrorists are kinda useless?

Anyway, this is all pointless because my main point that no one has addressed is that TDs are a hard counter and those aren't fun to fight

[eager pebble]

No? They are one of the best anti infiltration, but guess what. You can't do anything to stop them from exploding and killing you

[inland flare]

Which is my whole point

[eager pebble]

A hard counter implies there's nothing you can do to counter it. And you can. Repair ifvs.

[inland flare]

Nothing I can do to counter it

That's the keyword here, me, not my team, me as a lone person

This is what is bothering me, how hard it punishes solo players, something no other unit does as hard as the TD

Also, sometimes I am near the SD, but I just can't get there in time because I took too much damage from other sources

[eager pebble]

Now you are just complaining about teamwork.

[eager pebble]

That's literally the point of the unit. To pick off lone vehicles

[inland flare]

Yeah maybe I shouldn't have to rely on potentially bad teammates to not get screwed over by one person

What is so hard to understand about that?!

[eager pebble]

It's a team game.

That's like complaining about your jungle in a moba

Or your shortstop in baseball

"The runners need nerfed because my shortstop couldn't tag them out"

[inland flare]

You're just not listening to me, none of you are

If it's a team game then why can I get screwed over by one player!?

[eager pebble]

Because they are better than you

[inland flare]

Where is the skill in touching a tank!?

With something fast!?

[eager pebble]

Getting to it when you have less hp than a gi

Terror drones are to tank that dogs are to infantry

[inland flare]

No they just aren't

They aren't

Dogs don't one shot me as infantry

[eager pebble]

You should have seen how useless they were when the weren't radar invis and everyone and thier brother saw them coming

[inland flare]

They take a few bites to do that

TDs are basically a one shot sometimes even if you do everything right

[eager pebble]

Yeah but it could kill you in one bite if you took damage from another unit first!

[inland flare]

The core problem is that I shouldn't have to rely on unreliable teammates to counter one person
I'm sorry but if your solution amounts to "get good" then it's not a solution it's a cope

[inland flare]

Also, again, this is a settled issue
It's making people do things they don't want to do and that isn't fun

End of.

[eager pebble]

Except I've both played and been on the receiving end of terror drones and every time it's been reasonably fun.

[eager pebble]

So... repairing, mining, harvesting,

[inland flare]

Harvesting is taken care of by an AI miner, mining is tedious and boring, and repairing doesn't take or last very long and you're rewarded for doing it with credits, only real issue there is that you have to give up your infantry class to do it which isn't an issue sometimes

[eager pebble]

You are basically suggesting that the game remove "unfun" things but what you find "unfun" and others do is way different. Most players don't like being the base mom, I do

Ever fought a good rocketeer that trounce your units because you have flak that can't aim or a lack of apocs?

[inland flare]

Yes and they suck because I like using the siege chopper

[eager pebble]

Also your reference to an unrelated style of fps is not as relevant as you think. Team fortress was an entirely different beast than a base destruction vehicle slinging game

[inland flare]

Payload and the engineer class would disagree but I see your point

[eager pebble]

Neither of those require you to defend a static location that can be damaged beyond repair. Nor do you drive around in various classes of vehicles.

[inland flare]

Payload

That's literally payload

Also taunts, but they're taunts, not real vehicles

[eager pebble]

We talking the same payload?

https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Payload

Cause that's a pushing mechanic not a damage mechanic. It's king of the hill on wheels

You cant have a single guy sneak into the endgame area and "win"

[inland flare]

No it's VIP escort with a cart instead of a person

[eager pebble]

Proves my point

[inland flare]

Welllllll
I mean that depends how well you're defending and how close the cart is to the end

But that proves my point doesn't it?

Anyway, my point is that my team can be unreliable and I want some way to counter TDs as a solo player
Even if I can't destroy them myself, I'd like to be able to sustain myself until I can get to someone who can destroy it

[eager pebble]

Nope because the care moves, the bases do not

[inland flare]

Lance the bases move

[eager pebble]

That's easy! Just be a repair ifv

[inland flare]

You change spawns

[inland flare]

Aaaaaaaaaand right back to where we started

[eager pebble]

Just because you refuse to acknowledge the counter that's right infront of you