Torchbearer is [metaphorically] God. New Label Gives TØP Religious Freedom

[agile palm]

Thats why he chose quoting Psalm 22. He was holding both truths at once: He really was experiencing abandonment, and He was anchoring Himself and His hearers in a psalm that moves from forsakenness to trust. In other words, He wasn’t skipping the pain, but He also wasn’t letting the pain be the final word.

On the cross, Jesus fully entered human suffering. body broken, breath failing, cut off from every comfort. In that moment, He felt the weight of separation and voiced it with the rawest words Scripture had for it.

[frozen abyss]

I have chills. This feels so personally relevant to me and where I'm at in life.

And on a personal sidenote, 22 has been a relevant number that has shown up a lot for me lately. I tend to pay attention to little coincidences like that and have found solace in "angel number" interpretations sometimes, but I just always took it with the same grain of salt as reading horoscopes. But wow

Thank you for your patience and understanding in sharing these reflections with an agnostic/spiritually curious person like me 💗🫂

[tulip copper]

Yes.

[desert granite]

Yes! He also chose that psalm because he fulfilled it. Psalm 22 is a favorite because unlike most of the Psalms that are songs praise usually written by David, this one was written by David but it doesn't make sense contextually for it to be about David. But if you compare the very unique descriptions of suffering in Psalm 22, it matches very well with a Roman crucifixion. Even though crucifixion wouldn't be invented for hundreds of years after it was written. And then the movement from forsakenness to trust is the Resurrection, again, some of the phrasing doesn't make sense in it's original context but when viewed as a prophecy of the Resurrection it fits much better.

Sorry I could talk about that forever, it's like a hidden prophecy. There's so many not hidden prophecies that He fulfuleed but this one was just incredible when I learned about it the first time. And so Jesus referenced called out "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" not only in ernest but also as a fulfillment to that prophecy

[agile palm]

Which all comps the seven last words of Jesus

[agile palm]

I shared this in verified a while back but can’t find it but, the 6th word Jesus said was Tetelestai which translates from Greek as “it is finished” but has layers deep as well. In that time in history, when a debt was paid, a stamp was put on a contract that read, “Tetelestai”, when a task was completed by a servant they were to report back they would say” Tetelestai”, and the third was used as a triumphant deceleration after winning a battle. When Jesus said it, he said it as, The work is done, the debt has been paid and full, and victory.

[hardy parrot]

At today’s show, ||Tyler smeared the paint all over his neck after MM. Before this point, he only smeared it on his shirt. This is important, I think. Maybe it’ll get higher and higher up his face, till it’s like in City Walls.||
But you know what would be really cool? If at the final show… Something happens between him and TB, and he gets cleansed of the paint. Washed clean. Made new again.
It probably won’t happen. But man. That would be something.

[desert granite]

Oh what if what I just forwarded happens after MM and then Tb somehow cleans the paint off Clancy during Drag Path (I'm sure it won't but that would be an incredible way to end, not sure how it would fit in but)

[hardy parrot]

I will WEEP

Okay but you can imagine drag path live with jocals

[desert granite]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYhRsGQA4wE

[ocean steeple]

It’s really strange to me that there’s no Thank You page in the booklet

[tulip copper]

It's hidden downstairs

[hidden ivy]

I've been wondering about this too. Maybe the final "thank yous" will be at the FPE

[hidden ivy]

This would be so beautiful 🥲 what I would give for Drag Path live

[frozen abyss]

Oh wow!!!! That animation is wild. Also if all he is saying is true and factual, how craaaazy would it have been to just have been in comms with your favorite band like that so casually. Also, makes me think SO much about how the labels and the music industry confines what TØP can freely express in their lyrics and controls what gets posted where... Which adds more to how I admire what Tyler does with his talents

[agile palm]

Well, unfortunately, labels only go after the money. If you're nowhere near as consistently successful as any of your label-mates you are a risk. The music industry is the most Agist profiling industry there is. If you are over 28, you're no longer relevant to the market. Josh and Tyler are both nearing 40. I will say that personally, I know this experience and I will leave it at that. All around though, I wish he wouldn't be ambiguous on his faith. He has more control over his lyrical content than we think and that is not an opinion. I do not say that bitterly.

[hidden fable]

Here is something interesting in in a fun way. I was talking with someone else about there being a correlation of top’s cryptic style with the tv series The Fringe.

They pointed out that the last episode was titled Novation. The definition of novation is an agreement made between two contracting parties to allow for the substitution of a new party for an existing one. Just an interesting tidbit in regard to Nova Bishop and the City Walls ending.

If you aren’t familiar with The Fringe look it up, interesting show. Also, the main character’s last name was Bishop.

[tulip copper]

I'll have to check that out. I was rewatching it but I think I stopped short at the Fifth season. That show is so layered and good.

[tulip copper]

I see what you're saying but how to do you respond to the lyrics of Heathens? He's telling us what he'd doing - his plan- in the lyrics of that music.

[desert granite]

I’ve long wondered if the meaning of that song is what it seems like to me as a Christian. Like, is it really that straightforward? Take it slow, Don’t make any sudden moves, you don’t know the half of the abuse.

[tulip copper]

What would be an alternative interpretation? That has always been the obvious one for me so I have a hard time seeing it from another perspective.

(Side note - my kids have figured out the chords for Tally on our piano by themselves. It's a proud moment.)

[desert granite]

Maybe it's more accepted than I thought but I thought it wasn't an accepted interpretation lol, I think it's the right one though

[hidden fable]

I always kind of thought of the way it would have been for Jesus in the religious circles at the time. All of his friends were heathens. Like you don’t know who’s who and you don’t know their experiences or situation. Sin is sin, it is all equal, right?

That is from the Christian perspective. Some of me thinks that he was give the plot from suicide squad and had to make it fit with that too. But I think that was what he took the creative liberty to apply there. People non Christian and Christians alike are often judged the harshest by the church that says they are there to live and support them.

[tulip copper]

I know Tyler said he wrote it like he was introducing someone to their fans. I don't think that excludes the interpretation I said though. I think it's a response to the question "why don't you share about your faith more openly?" The answer is in the lyrics of Heathens. And probably in Clear too

[tulip copper]

It's hard because the church is made up of people and where's there's people, there's problems. We always have to point ourselves back to Jesus. We all need someone to save us - even those who are super judgemental.

[tulip copper]

Um, this is kind of an awesome viewpoint - like if it was Jesus talking to his disciples about all the broken people he would spend his time with and his disciples weren't getting it - that they were actually the broken people too

[hidden fable]

Or they way he challenged the Pharisees too, right? He had it coming both ways and constantly had to remind everyone that we are all equal in the eyes of God. Anyway, that is what Heathens is to me.

[desert granite]

Oh that’s interesting and yeah I 100% agree

[tulip copper]

Yes! That's so good

[hidden fable]

This whole discord server stands as a great example of that though. God and Christianity are discussed regularly along with mental health sexual orientation, you name it. They are discussed openly and are tolerated and respected on all sides collectively. I think that is what it is all about, just respecting and loving others and valuing them as flawed people just like you and me. We’re broken people, yeah?

[tulip copper]

Yes! I've loved how there's such respectful dialogs and even if things get heated, it seems like people rally and find common ground. I'm not big into social media but this server is my exception

[hidden fable]

Same. I like the dialogue here. It just shows you that the message is still good, it’s the delivery that makes it complicated sometimes.

[limber dove]

Screen we're broken people oh oh

[frozen abyss]

I will never forget the feeling of singing We're Broken People in the crowd 🥹🥰

[hardy parrot]

Okay I just read through all the Heathens thoughts and yes.

Also, I wanna show you guys what I made to pass out at the Tampa show

[tulip copper]

https://youtu.be/Ywc58_UBgZo?si=5ExoyPaWYinOVosI
Just listening to this cover. Do you think there's a connection to the pool in the Beautiful Letdown and the one in Chlorine?

[frozen abyss]

Gosh Tyler's voice is so gifted...

And yeah, great observation!!!

[tulip copper]

Yeah, I love the original and Tyler's cover

[hardy parrot]

May very well be just a coincidence, but I saw somebody say that the tøp logo is just like Tyler’s cross tattoo on his upper arm, only with the line on the right tilted

It’s still not exact in shape, but thought that was cool.

[frozen abyss]

Interesting observation considering Torchbearer's fallen cross!!!

[frozen abyss]

Randomly thought of "I fly by the dangerous bend symbol"

I wonder if Tyler considered one of many interpretations of a "bend symbol" to be a fallen cross?

[frozen abyss]

Also, one more thing, love looking at his tattoo and thinking of "I bet a lot of me was lost, Ts uncrossed and I's undotted"

Oh geez, I'm in a rabbit hole now

[hardy parrot]

OH WOAH

[hardy parrot]

The bend symbol refers to the one created by the Bourbaki group

I still personally see TB’s tape cross, not as fallen but as being carried, the way Jesus carried His

It’s angled similarly

Jesus beared the cross. He is the cross bearer, one could say.

[tulip copper]

Yes, and I think we can see TB both as a Christ figure and that if we are a torchbearer fighting for someone, we are also picking up that cross and that the cross is covering us.

[frozen abyss]

Oh yeah I know ppl have mentioned this specifically - was thinking of just one alternative meaning to it

[earnest pelican]

I would say that TB may sumbolise not only Jesus but also the Holy Trinity in general. Tyler mentioned something about his "triangular existence" (the Trench, SAI and Voldsoy version of TB) + his guiding abilities which the Holy Spirit is usually being associated with

[tulip copper]

I agree with that. I just don't like to ruminate on that too much because in the context of the story it steers a little close to Modalism.

[limber dove]

And that could be dangerous

[limber dove]

Down in the forest
We'll sing a chorus
One that everybody knows
Hands held higher
We'll be on fire
Singing songs that nobody wrote

Forest lyrics 🙏🏻

Hands held higher similar to drag path cover☝🏻☝🏻

[frozen abyss]

It's so interesting reading this almost as a prophecy to how they end their shows singing Trees

Btw, yes I used Gemini AI, but I was curious what answer it would give me as someone overcoming religious trauma over the idea of "studying the Bible" directly, by asking it for 10 top relevant teachings from it. And to me it seems like TØP embodies all 10 of the ones in their answer!

[tulip copper]

Um, just wanted to share. My daughter and I were getting out hair cut and could see each other in a mirror and Routines in the Night came on and we had a moment. ❤️
And then the Hype came on. It was lovely

[tulip copper]

I don't know if I would say I've had religious trauma but I've definitely had church hurt. I'm praying for you that you find a way through. It's so sad to have that happen - this community you're supposed to be the safest in can hurt you the most. I did eventually find a church that is really healthy though - praying that happens for you too.

Another resource to look at to study the Bible in a non threatening way might be The Bible Project. They have great videos that walk through the Bible as a unified story that leads to Jesus. I love reading the Bible through the literary lens and seeing how all the themes and threads weave together and this website and their videos really work through ideas clearly but also beautifully.
https://bibleproject.com/about/
This video of theirs had some overlapping imagery and themes with the City of Dema and with Trench.
https://youtu.be/5yZLFmVHfaw?si=XDimSxzjEYAOoeG5

[frozen abyss]

Oooh I definitely will check it out!! Thank you so much for your kind words ♥️

I grew up in an agnostic family with parents that grew up "culturally" into religions they later rejected in life. I always felt drawn to wanting to understand religions and a "friend" saw that as an opportunity to involve themselves in my life and in my mind. It's still something that is so hard to come to terms with, but honestly it's the same tactics that get people into cults doing things that go against what their souls know to feel as right. And I've been so lucky to have been able to heal enough to know what it means to feel hope, to know that sad seasons pass and the sun will rise again, and holding on to those experiences as my own way of processing what God means to me

[tulip copper]

Well, I'm glad that regardless of what you've been through, you're still pushing through and seeking what's next. 😊

[frozen abyss]

What's with the downvote @lusty gust ?

[lusty gust]

ai is lame, you wasted water for that? think for yourself

the last thing anyone needs is a toxic machine thinking on the Lords teachings for them on top of general lameness

[frozen abyss]

Ah got it. This is too immature of a response for me to consider engaging.

[frozen abyss]

Btw just had a moment now to check out BibleProject and that video was freaking awesome!! Thanks so much for sharing a fun, visually engaging resource. And I'm seeing so much about the story of Cain into the story of Dema now after this....!

[tulip copper]

Yay! I'm so glad!
Yeah, that moment when Cain shuts himself up in the city with the monster - amazing and scary.

[desert granite]

Let’s go!! I love that sign

[hidden ivy]

❤️❤️❤️ love the sign, and the Ned 😆 I'm thinking about putting together a Ned outfit for our concert this Friday!

Also, I wanted to share a thought I had. In a couple of the flashbacks in City Walls, there's a very large moon in the background. I wondered why it was so prominent in what was meant to be such a dark moment.

What is the moon? Just a reflection of the sun's light! It was evidence that he was never "abandoned by the sun" at all. Even though he couldn't see it at the time, the moon shows that the sun was there the whole time, giving light in his darkest moments. Such a beautiful detail.

[desert granite]

I didn’t think about that but that’s cool!

[frozen abyss]

That's awesome considering how "moon" has been used often for puzzle solving and also noticeable in SAI Livestream too. Nice!!

[tame gorge]

oh that’s so wonderful. hope you had an awesome time there

[frozen abyss]

Hey y'all idk if some of you have seen this yet or if it was posted previously but I am a few minutes into this interpretation and it feels pretty wild to hear some of his takes on interpreting RAWFEAR and Garbage... https://youtu.be/vAohSeg9caM?si=Sad-FJYOZe1FVRjO

It got me thinking about the breach tour ||is it possible that with the message man ritual it's helping to fulfill his addiction, which many have speculated that if Tyler were to be addicted, it would be about self harm?||

Sorry, I don't want to speculate too much about his private life, but was thinking to mention in case somehow that's one of many interpretations to understand what he is doing on tour and with the lore's direction

[frozen abyss]

Omg you posted this previously!! This is hype

[limber dove]

Yeah love this yt channel

[desert granite]

https://youtu.be/OZnp47p_Fgg?si=8N6FUyPeUWs7WVbk

[fallow ermine]

My understanding of what he’s “addicted to” has always been that it’s doubt. You can get addicted to doubt. In fact, that’s kind of how it’s described and definitely how I’ve experienced it. You turn questions you feel like have no answer over and over in your head and try to parse them out like a kid with a Rubik’s cube—and you can get to the point where even if you are given answers to your questions you choose not to be satisfied with those answers, and you just keep thinking, thinking, thinking about what you can’t know. The only other time he’s mentioned “addiction” in his song canon is Addict With a Pen, and he says, “addict with a pen who is addicted to the wind as it blows me back and forth,” which is a reference to the Bible verse that says the “one who doubts is driven by the wind.” And the “testing what is real, what is good,” in Vignette seems like a pretty direct reference to it, too. Because he specifically says “fresh off a bringer in the woods,” why is he in the woods? He usually references woods as the place where he goes to figure out hard questions—specifically, whether or not God is there, or there for him. “Trees.” I’m not saying he wasn’t also allowing it to be about other forms of addiction, I’m just saying that if I’m going off of the struggles he’s shared with us it seems like he’s addicted to doubt.

[frozen abyss]

Oh I love this interpretation so much!! Thanks for sharing. I love that their lyrics have just the right amount of vagueness that allows for there to still be interpretations that resonate with people who are struggling with commonly known addictions, while also still tying it all to his doubts in his faith

[desert granite]

That's actually something I've never connected and I think you might be very right, I resonate with it very much. And Reisdro was surprisingly central in the DR, further hinting at it I suppose.

[limber dove]

https://vt.tiktok.com/ZSUuseJf6/

[tulip copper]

Could you summarize what this video is saying? I don't have tiktok

[limber dove]

Its the clancy story with dead come alive as the sound track a neat edit

[hardy parrot]

Guysss if anyone was interested in getting one of these for your show, I put them up on my ko-fi page (they are FREE downloads) the link is in my link tree in my bio here 🥹🖤

[humble laurel]

Would anyone be interested in joining a Christian clique server? I’m thinking of making one 🙂

[tulip copper]

That's an interesting idea but I also like the idea of these conversations happening in the server at large. Is there a thread that has Biblical/ religious connections to TØP's music?

[humble laurel]

Yup! That’s the plan. I’ll work on it tomorrow because I’m exhausted and there’s a burrito with my name on it. 💀I’ll let this channel here know when it’s completed!

[frozen abyss]

Omg came across this in my Instagram dedicated to the TØP algorithm hyperfocus and I love this kid's talent!! He has so many followers and his rapping flow is so good and it's all very overtly Christian if anyone hasn't heard of this dude check him out!

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPwc8t1grw8/?igsh=MXZobno0bnNvNDB1YQ==

dc3media

They laugh at the truth 🤷🏾‍♂️

#reels #fyp #rap #christianrap

Likes

20921

Instagram

Same guy but omg his rapping is out of this world https://www.instagram.com/reel/DOlx7ZKAt9D/?igsh=MW5wdG1rbTU3Zm53YQ==

dc3media

Still rich in spirit 🤷🏾‍♂️

To a million followers. Cheers

#reels #fyp #rap #christianrap

Likes

52826

Instagram

[desert granite]

Downstairs used again in post!

[hardy parrot]

I KNOW RAHHH

[hardy parrot]

GUYS Tyler made a cross on his arm ||with paint that had been smeared on it from mm ritual||

||https://www.instagram.com/reel/DQDUcOhjG7K/?igsh=MWEzamtxNmh0OGkxbg==||

breakthecycleinhalf

i wanted to be a better brother, better son ✝️ #breachrogers

from shanathemaa on X

🏷️ #twentyonepilots #tylerjoseph #joshdun #clancy #breach

Likes

167

Instagram

[frozen abyss]

Oh wow

[desert granite]

Wait what- woah

[desert granite]

Thanks for sharing this is really cool

“Better son”
I always thought he meant son of God, but I couldn’t prove it. (Possibly better brother = better fellow Christian/brother in Christ)

[limber dove]

I was about to share😭🤣

[limber dove]

Yall did a rewatch of the livestream experience and noticed every time there is Christian imagery or songs on the set the bishops cut the stream or transition away

And also noticed there is always a source of white light

[fallow ermine]

This is really cool, thank you so much for sharing

[desert granite]

Okay I gotta go find some illegal google drive or smth again I gotta check this out

[limber dove]

@desert granite dms

[hardy parrot]

Idk where else to put this 😭

[frozen abyss]

Oh that's such a good observation! We were having a crazy color theory chat earlier in theory channel today

Around #theories message

[limber dove]

||apparently they played downstairs live||

[hardy parrot]

They did

[limber dove]

Did you get it?

[hidden ivy]

I am sooo hopeful that they'll release a video of that performance at some point! Maybe that's why they didn't allow phones?

[desert granite]

Praise the Lord!! I hope he uses Tyler and this all for good!
And thank you Sisi for posting and Cenntinal for sharing here

[magic stratus]

Yeah twitter has been insane today

A mix of people deciding to give their life to Jesus, people reigniting their faith, and people just hardcore attacking Christians and christianity

[desert granite]

I have a feeling this dichotomy is gonna be reality overall for a while. Which is really cool and really sad for both of those sides. I haven’t been on there so it’s interesting to hear

[hidden ivy]

I'm not on Twitter much either. Where are we seeing this stuff? Are there particular posts or accounts worth looking at?

[fallow ermine]

I was wondering the same thing. And wondering why they’re giving their lives to the Lord—like it would be amazing to see what the connection is between Downstairs and surrending your life to Jesus.

[desert granite]

Honestly I think it’s probably the lyrics of surrendering our lives to Him, probably in the hearts of those who were almost there but perhaps needed a little nudge from someone they cared about.

“I want to be the one after Your own heart” 🙏

[pine wing]

Saying something here so this channel remains available for me to see!!

[frozen abyss]

Feel free to jump in anytime with your thoughts 💞

[topaz current]

I've seen a lot of bashing of Christian perspectives on the lore particularly on Reddit moreso than twitter somehow, I fairly often see very beautiful depictions of how people view the lore from a Christian view or how Tyler's songs helped reignite their faith and half of the replies end up as malicious insults towards the OP for their mere expression of their faith.

newcomer to this thread by the way, thanks for making this, it's really nice to get to see a dedicated place to discuss all this from a Christian perspective

[fallow ermine]

Yes, ditto, the atmosphere on twitter right now is very very hard to be in so this is a nice change of pace

[frozen abyss]

Yikes it's still ongoing?
It's crazy to me that it has blown up like this but not post Breach being released, just post ||a live performance of downstairs||. It feels so strange to me.

[hidden ivy]

It does feel very strange. I was looking through Twitter today a bit and I was shocked by some of the hate and utter refusal to listen to each other. I've felt a very heavy need to pray for the clique today, especially those who don't know Christ. I just don't know what else to do but pray that the Lord will work for the true good of these people and for His glory through it all

[fallow ermine]

That's probably the best practice. I'll pray, too!

[frozen abyss]

Plz see announcements for a very important Breach tour related post in their social media about a certain song!!!!

||(then join us in breach tour spoilers to cry about it)||

[fallow ermine]

that made me cry

[lean carbon]

I’ve been thinking about this and thought u guys might like it… so you know how many references there are to the sun rising and morning conquering the night? Obviously that can be interpreted literally just like that, as the night is when tyler’s thoughts are worst so morning saves him from that etc. but also I like to interpret it as SON rather than sun- especially with songs like truce and taxi cab. As in, the SON will rise and we will try again, we’re driving towards the morning SON where all your blood is washed away and all you did will be undone. Just the idea that the sun itself is a metaphor for Jesus and when we run to him, to the light, he saves us from the darkness

[frozen abyss]

Oh yes absolutely - I've noticed that so much the last few months trying to deep dive into pre Vessel songs

[fallow ermine]

For sure, for sure, plus all those references where he’s squinting into bright light, like in the Midwest Indigo or Ride or Snap Back music videos. I like the idea that though the Son/Sun is a good thing, it’s also uncomfortable

[hidden ivy]

Yes!

Reminds me of CS Lewis in The Chronicles of Narnia. "Who said anything about safe? 'Course he isn't safe. But he's good. He's the King, I tell you." (Talking about Aslan)

[desert granite]

Oh I love that line
(And the entire series, favorite books as a kid)

[hidden ivy]

Guys apparently Clear is on display at the fpe??? Has that always been the case?

[topaz current]

That's the first time I've seen it, I think it's new to this FPE exhibit but it's so cool that it's on display, it might be one of my favorite songs of theirs period

[hidden ivy]

Same. I legitimately think that Clear explains Tyler's plans with the lore & music over the last several years. I feel like it's pretty significant that they would display it now

[limber dove]

https://www.instagram.com/stories/joshuadun/3750973472185950381?utm_source=ig_story_item_share&igsh=ZndrZnhlaHdic3Jo

Guys Josh's story😭

[desert granite]

Can you screen shot or smth, Insta won't let me see 😔

[topaz current]

It does seem really significant to me too cause he's been so much more open with his faith recently with not just the new songs but what he's been doing on stage and now having clear now posted up on display at the FPE which hasn't been acknowledged in who knows how long

[desert granite]

I don't think this was in today's FPE, I think that's what the "kidding" was, I think this was from the past (bit I'm not 100%)

[topaz current]

that also could be true, ive never seen the picture floating around prior to this so i dont know

[desert granite]

Also do you mind screenshotting Josh's story I'm in so much suspense

[topaz current]

yes i got you dw hold on

[desert granite]

Thank you!

[topaz current]

josh's story

[desert granite]

Aw that's so cool

[limber dove]

Josh saying he loves downstairs

[desert granite]

Thanks to you both! 😂 I love that he called it out that way that's really special

[limber dove]

They both put so much emotion in that show especially the song the crowd was worshiping without knowing it was wholesome wish one day i could see them😭🫶🏻

[desert granite]

Update: it’s not new but it is at this FPE

[topaz current]

ah i see, i didnt know it was there before

[earnest pelican]

I usually see this line as "we're driving towards the morning, son" (with coma between morning and son) which suggests that the person speaking is a father figure (God), referring to Tyler as His child. But I think in the end of the day both our interpretations point to the same thing😁
Taxi Cab is one of my favorite tøp songs and I see it as one of the most genius religious songs ever written

[earnest pelican]

And Downstairs is talking about it too

I wear all of my heart on my sleeve, I'll take what I believe, and I'm hiding it = I sing about everything I feel, even the darkest emotions, but for some reason I'm not so open about my faith

I know Downstairs was written years ago but maybe it being on Breach is a suggestion that Tyler still feels this way and he wants to change something about his art

[lean carbon]

Wait i love that omg

[fallow ermine]

It always reminds me of what happened between Peter and Jesus. Peter could do what Jesus was doing, walk on water, as long as he was looking at Jesus. But when he looked around at where he was and who he was and sank, Jesus called that "doubting." So it's like, we move forward and toward Him and are like Him as long as we're focused on Him. But as soon as we start focusing on ourselves, where we are, what we're doing, whether it's right or not right, without focusing on Him as much, we sink and He has to pull us out again. And the good news is, He always saves us. But the interesting thing I've experienced in my own life is that I can THINK I'm focusing on "God" but what I sometimes MEAN is, I'm trying to grade myself on how WELL I'm focusing on God, trying to measure if I'm doing it right or not. Then I notice flaws, and then before you know it I'm barely focusing on Him at all—just focusing on how I FEEL about Him. And then no wonder He feels far away. It's because I'm not focusing on Him, not because He actually got any further away. Which is why I think having the DEMA statues be people who are looking up, but then blocking their own view with their own hands, is so genius.

sorry I didn't mean to go on and on but what I was trying to connect all this to was that idea you said, that "I sing about everything I feel, but not my faith," and I think it's because sometimes he feels like he DOESN'T feel ENOUGH about God. Other than the vague guilt that he doesn't feel what he should be feeling. So then that's what he sings about. That's what Leave the City feels like to me. anywho, sorry, that was a lot

[earnest pelican]

Wait I've never paid too much attention to the Dema statues but your interpretation is so interesting! It's great how little details make the lore even deeper and more relatable

[tulip copper]

Woah! I never thought about the story of Peter walking on water relating to Backslide. That's a great connection

[fallow ermine]

Speaking of connections, has everyone shared what they think of Torchbearer being metaphorically God now that we've seen the end of the lore? I'm still mulling that over so if anyone would like to share

[magic stratus]

He will ALWAYS come find us

[lean carbon]

I LOVE the connection you made with the dema statues. I never would have thought of it like that. That’s such an interesting interpretation and I absolutely love it

[hidden ivy]

I'm not sure about that last letter yet. I think it's something along the lines of, as long as God continues pursuing us and loving us, there will always be hope and we will never be overcome by our sin or the enemy. Our life is dependent on Him keeping us & not giving up on us. I'm just not clear on the "we" that he's referring to. Obviously the Banditos, but what would be the metaphorical implications of that?

[tulip copper]

Well, I don't think this has to be an exact allegory so not everything has to have a one to one correspondence. But I think that people make a huge mistake if they think they can change by relying on God but not being in community. Not that God isn't powerful enough to sustain or save a person by themselves, but he made us to be in community. It's how we grow and mature. That's why it's so important that if you have a struggle (anxiety, addiction etc) you ask God for help but you also confess that to someone else.

[hidden ivy]

That's a really good point. I tend to overlook that part of things even in my own life. Really good reminder, and makes a lot of sense with the lore even if it isn't perfect

[tulip copper]

I love the TØP lore because first, it's just a good story with a character you can root for. But all the best stories also echo the story God is writing

[outer drum]

tyler himself has stated that he doesn’t want to shove christianity down his fan’s throats. so why would he make tøp a christian band when it’s never been just for christians.

i’m a pagan myself and i can still have connections to the religious aspects of the music due to how vague they are. that’s the whole point.

[desert granite]

I'm not sure what you're responding to, but your first sentence is the main opinion of most of this chat 🤝

[tiny cedar]

i feel the point that is trying to be made is that peøple are wanting tøp to go super super christian with their music again and some people in this thread are very for that

[earnest pelican]

I don't think they have ever been super super Christian

[tiny cedar]

i’m just quoting what has been said with that

[desert granite]

Oh, a lot of us Christians talk in here naturally, so of course we'd be excited to see that. That doesn't mean we think that's what they'll do and it doesn't mean that we're trying to shove anything either. It's all good, no worries

[tiny cedar]

i’m a christian myseld so i get where you’re coming frøm but i really doubt theyll go back to the super kinda christian stuff that has been done somewhat because religion can help mental health but sometimes it really doesn’t

[desert granite]

Also sorry if I forgot to turn the @ off

[tiny cedar]

no you had it off dw dude

[desert granite]

Yeah I doubt they will either. And with this fanbase if they wanted to they'd have to be extra careful and sensitive, which I know they would be hypothetically because they really care about the fans

[earnest pelican]

Yeah that's fine. And I do agree that many people here would be happy to hear more Christian themes in tøp songs again. But also as far as I know people see it as positive that tøp has never been a typical Christian band because this way they're more universal and can reach more people with their message

(Sorry for the ping)

[tiny cedar]

yea i feel tøp’s never been as christian as peøple claim because it’s always been kinda subtle and not in ur face lile most actual christian music makers

[hidden ivy]

I would personally be really excited to see them share their faith more in their music, but not because I'm interested in "shoving." Just because Christ is where I find freedom, love, joy, and peace, and I think that's true for the guys as well, and why wouldn't we want to share that with others who are struggling with the same things we do?

[tiny cedar]

because not everyone is christian, nø hard feelings, i’m Christian myself but it really hasn’t helped my mental health at all

[desert granite]

When people say the earlier stuff that's more obvious mostly they're talking about No Phun Intended and a little bit of ST/RAB/Vessel
But if you haven't yet, definetly go listen to NPI

[tiny cedar]

my favorite song off npi is literally save

[outer drum]

me personally i follow a non-christian religion (hellenic paganism). meaning that i have to already jump through so many hoops when it comes to my interpretations of their religious music but the reason i have those hoops to jump through to begin with is because the lyrics are already vague enough to be up for interpretation.

[desert granite]

This is a big ole text weall but I tried to explain a bit about why a lot of Christians want to see more clarity and intention in talking about faith from them, hopefullly it is of some benefit: #pilots-discussion message

[agile palm]

https://youtu.be/OZnp47p_Fgg?si=lcAHkcXXYbnwjskt
this is pretty cool thought I’d share this. I haven’t read any of the comments since I was done last, so I’m really sure what the conversation right now.

[tiny cedar]

it’s infact given me guilt i have had no reason to feel. it’s made me feel all these not good things about myself and it’s like i feel the messaging with mental health would make sense tøø without so much religious themes because as i mentioned before christianity hasn’t made everyone’s mental health better, me for example. i find relatability with all of tøp’s songs but it’s hard to sometimes and i think it makes sense if they stick to mental health as a whole but with some christian themes nøw and then because it makes sense not everyone is christian

[desert granite]

I saw this before and it's pretty cool!

[agile palm]

I saw the link that you sent his stuff on Instagram I think? I saw a few of his videos a while back that I really watched them, but making the news is pretty awesome.

[outer drum]

and also i have seen people say that you NEED to be christian to listen to tøp

[tiny cedar]

no that pisses me off so much tøø

[hidden ivy]

I do think it's cool that their music is still relatable and helpful for you and for so many

[outer drum]

i’m like one of 6 pagan clikkies it’s a warzone out here 😅

[hidden ivy]

How weird that people would say that. Even if they became more clear about their faith in their music, it wouldn't be to cater to Christians only. It would be to share the hope that they have with those who need it

[outer drum]

once saw a tiktok that said “tyler joseph is the only man who can make people worship without them realizing it” and it made me look at my phone like: cause of how weird that is to say

[hidden ivy]

Also most Christians I know think I'm so weird for listening to tøp so I think it's funny that others view it as a "Christians only" thing 😆

[hidden ivy]

Yeahhh, I saw that too, honestly it's probably not real worship if they're "not realizing it" anyway

[desert granite]

Yeah to an extent me too it's pretty funny the dichotomy there lol

[outer drum]

and worship is a very personal thing as well. i worship my gods in my own way that’s very different.

[desert granite]

To give the benefit of the doubt to the OP of that, Tyler probably creates a more worship-like atmosphere with more worship-y lyrics than most people at his shows would otherwise be doing, but thats a really far cry from actual worship. Actual worship is not done by those who do not have a relationship with God so for a Christian to say that is really weird

[outer drum]

and worship is found in all religions so also implying it’s just a christian thing is also reallyyyy weird

anyways sorry for intruding on this topic

[earnest pelican]

You're not intruding at all, it's interesting to see different perspectives and share our opinions

[outer drum]

i’ve just never felt truly welcome in the clique due to the fact that i’m a pagan so that’s kinda why i felt like i was intruding. /gen

[daring harness]

I hope you don’t feel that way anymore. also I think a good deal of clikkies either aren’t religious or aren’t going to think any sort of way about it even if they are. We’re all here for the music and are unified by that

[magic stratus]

They used to be a Christian band, but after the label they kinda dropped it because they cared more about reaching as many people as they can than being labeled as "Christian music"

[jolly thorn]

they need to go back 😭 their Christian music was fire

[sleek violet]

my contribution to this thread is as follows: my brain says torchbearer represents God, but my heart says clancybearer canon

[outer drum]

not every clikkie is christian tho

[frozen abyss]

Saw this comment and went... this is the reason why I'm in this thread 😍

[frozen abyss]

(Context on the video in the screenshot)

[jolly thorn]

but the band is. I’d be happy for them to be able to be open about it instead of being controlled by the industry. less about my wanting and more for them. as a Christian, not being allowed to talk about my faith kills me. Saps every bit of energy from me. I can hardly imagine how it feels for them to be told to tune it down

[desert granite]

That’s okay, they will never expect everyone to be. That doesn’t mean they couldn’t go back to that if they wanted to.

[desert granite]

By the way I meant to add too, that you don’t need to feel like you’re intruding, and I’m glad that you can share your thoughts here. Even though I might disagree quite strongly with what you believe, and vice versa, you’re still absolutely welcome here. It’s a public place to take about this side of the band and it’s cool that you have thoughts to share from your perspective too. And if I ever say something that makes it sound otherwise I’m sorry for that as well.

[fallow ermine]

I kind of agree with that. In my worst moments of doubt and feeling distant from God, and getting all tangled up in my own head until I can’t tell what’s real anymore—it’s having an open conversation where I’m actually trying to encourage someone ELSE’S faith that usually sets my head back on straight. So imagine not being able to do that

[jolly thorn]

This is so so real. I get sad and down but then someone asks about God and I perk up like a dog at the word “park.” Love love love the feeling of sharing something so vulnerable and life-changing to a curious, reserved mind. I love when they realize that their negative religious experience isn’t how it’s supposed to be. Their little revelations 😭💗💓💞💕

[desert granite]

I’m the same way oftentimes @fallow ermine
I’ll be on my own head sometimes spiraling, and then I’ll have to explain my faith to someone or comfort them in times of sorrow or teach the word in some small way, and I’ll have that deep seated faith and conviction while I do that that reminds me that faith is real, my salvation is real, and God is real and I really know Him. It’s a crazy feeling and I thank God for it.

[outer drum]

might not be a christian but i relate to this. the guys actually brought me closer to my gods, which i know seems crazy in retrospect considering they're christian and i'm a pagan, but the way they've always had their music up for interpretation is what helped with that. like i've interpreted "we're driving towards the morning sun" in taxi cab to be about how Apollon (Greek god of healing, music, poetry, and light) and Helios (Greek titan of the sun) helped me find the strength to keep going through bringing that light into my life. i would go into more detail about my interpretations but i don't wanna be annoying 🙂‍↕️

[tulip copper]

That makes sense. I think their music connects to that longing in each of us to be connected to God and the hope to be whole, the hope that we can be healed and the knowledge we can't do it ourselves.

[tulip copper]

An interesting intersection of the pagan and Christian is C. S. Lewis. Have you ever read Till We Have Faces? It's a retelling of the story of Cupid and Psyche. I just re-read it and it's lovely. I think Lewis does a great job of creating the atmosphere of the heaviness and otherness of the pagan gods.

[outer drum]

i haven’t! i’ll check that out!

[outer drum]

if anyone in this thread does wanna hear my own personal interpretations then i'll be happy to share

[tulip copper]

I would

[desert granite]

Just to be clear, I have no hate or ill will in asking this (disagreement, sure, but no bad feelings). But I'm curious what your thoughts are in finding a meaning that you know wasn't the intended meaning? Like, I've heard lyrics that speak to me if I take them in a vacuum, but then I realize the writer's POV and it takes the meaning away for me because I've effectively made that meaning up.

You're of course welcome to share your interpretations (although a different thread may be more appropriate), but even if Tyler isn't as Christian-focused as I would think, he's definitely not talking about those gods. Do you not see it to be disrespectful in any way to Tyler or dishonoring to your own worldview to apply lyrics in a way that you know is not within the scope of interpretation that the author intended? /gen

[outer drum]

well i know that tyler has stated he wants everyone to have their own interpretations of his and josh’s music “a kitchen sink to you is not a kitchen sink to me.”

i feel like if i were to tell tyler my interpretations of his music, based on how presents himself, he’d say that it’s alright to have my own religious interpretations.

[desert granite]

I sorta agree with you to a point, but I feel there's a limit to that. I don't think that's actually what Kitchen Sink is about, I don't think we can take his kitchen sink and apply our own meaning to it, I think the idea is more about finding our own kitchen sinks in our lives. Like in Taxi Cab, given the imagery and the context in the other songs on the album, I think if we "dig a little deeper and it's crystal clear."

And I apply this mindset to others, as a Christian I won't listen to someone if they practice witchcraft even if their lyrics sound fine, cause I know the worldview their lyrics are originating from is antithetical to mine. I think there's a lot more value in taking the time and energy to find the intended meaning to something that speaks to you instead of assigning it one. And I know Their intention with a lot of their lyrics is to leave some ambiguity for interpretation I just don't think it applies so much when it's "clear."

...
But also take that as you may, I'm sorry cause my intention is not to stir up conflict, and I do want to be respectful, I just wanted to know your thoughts cause I care a lot about this type of thing. Even if I may not be the most interested lol, feel free to make a thread or something about your thoughts and interpretations

[outer drum]

if they were explicitly a christian band then yeah, i probably wouldn’t listen to them, but they aren’t. you don’t turn on a christian rock radio station and hear heavydirtysoul. they’re christian’s in a band, not a christian band. tyler has stated that he doesn’t want to push his religion onto us fans and that we can have our own meanings to his songs.

[frozen abyss]

So many good points from all sides. Love this community ❤️

As a spiritual/agnostic I can see it both ways, and also see it as god or gods meaning the deep, intimate joy and positive force that you can find within living a life that exudes care and love and meaning

[tulip copper]

If you make a thread talking about other religions implications or interpretations I would jump on there. I am definitely in the Torchbearer is a Christ figure camp but I also think one of the awesome things about this band is that we can have interesting and civil conversations about potentially difficult subjects.

[frozen abyss]

Mind creating a new thread (see screenshot) and then link the thread? That way those that are interested can check out your thoughts 😄

[supple vector]

I want to preface this with saying ik that this is basically just a head cannon but I think it's a really interesting thought and I wanted to share

I was listening to Johnny Boy this afternoon and it stuck out to me that the "I will carry all your names and I will carry all your shame" part fits very well with the part of the breach live shows where Torchbearer is carrying the flag back from b stage to main stage. He is quite literally carrying all the names of those who signed the flag and, via Johnny Boy, carrying their shame
I don't really have an exact explanation for the "I will carry all your shame" bit but I think it's still an interesting thought, if someone has said this before idk I'm very new to this particular thread

[frozen abyss]

fascinating! I've only ever thought of the "weathered flag that's by the sea" from Chlorine but that's such an interesting reflection. The themes run SO deep

[lean carbon]

Thanks for reminding me how great self titled is Johnny boy is so slept on😭

[desert granite]

Re: Pet Cheetah is actually about the fear of losing the clique if he gets more explicit with his faith @hardy parrot

[sleek violet]

people who suggested i join this thread im sorry but i probably wont be talking in here cause i personally kinda dislike when christians talk about wanting their faith to be more accepted n stuff when it's the most common religion and simultaneously one of the most non-accepting communities :[ no hate to any of u obv, i totally understand wanting more faith songs from the band, but i'm a strong believer that not being a strictly christian band is really important and makes it so everyone feels welcome in the clique. it's already hard enough for people with religious trauma to get into a band with so many christian songs and personally, as a christian, it's hard for me to listen to some of their faith music without getting a bit upset haha. tldr christianity as a community is scary and i dunno if i wanna be in that part of the clique, no hate obv ❤️

[frozen abyss]

As a non Christian in this thread, I feel super accepted! It might help to scroll up from the beginning cuz we were having really awesome discussions. But I get you though, definitely do what feels best for you ❤️

[pine wing]

I wholeheartedly agree. I’ve lost friends, really close ones, because I’m Catholic. And Tyler even talks about this in Downstairs too (I feel better in the cellar down there / it’s some shelter from the weather). One of the biggest ways the enemy is trying to dissuade us Christians is to make it difficult for us to speak our faith in public. I wish that TøP could be Christian… yknow, outwardly. I wish that there wasn’t this idea that you have to be Christian to listen to Christian music, or that Christian music is only written for Christians. There’s such a stigma, a metaphorical step back that people take whenever ‘Christian’ is said, as if there’s a curse along with it. If only people realized the true blessing the love of Jesus Christ brings, and if only twenty one pilots was able to express their faith and their knowledge of the Good News without feeling stifled!!

[sleek violet]

read through a bunch of the stuff, i think its only some people in here who are making me personally a little uncomfy with how they approach the topic, not gonna name names and obviously no disrespect but i always feel a little more comfortable with non-christians for some reason 😭

it's like a lot of christians are missing some self-awareness as to one, how common it is as a religion, and two, the fact that christianity may not be the best thing for everyone, even if you believe it is. idk if i'm like not a real christian for this but i believe you don't have to be christian to be saved, when the way so many christians act makes it harder to even want to be christian in the first place. i know what i want to believe, but many people who believe the same thing make it hard to interact with them, especially when they are disrespectful towards those with different beliefs. sorry if this doesn't make any sense haha

[pine wing]

No I definitely think you’re making sense!! I’m just gonna say this then I’m gonna go to bed, but I want to remind you that a lot of the stories you’re hearing about Christians are actually exaggerated from the internet. And I know that sounds harsh and weird, but I have a long history of being Christian and not really practicing because of what other people told me. I’ve learned, by shutting off social media and just interacting with those around me, that the kindest people are those who are God-fearing, and the most hostile ones are the ones who have yet to find themselves in Christ. That’s just my experience, but I encourage you to turn away from other’s opinions, pray about it, and find your own way!!

Good night my friend!!

[desert granite]

I want to be respectful and kind, and I know me continuing this convo much here probably isn't for the best. Are you comfortable having a convo in dms later? If not that's cool and I understand, but as fellow Christians I'd love to learn and ask some particular questions about this, if you're open to that.

[sleek violet]

if u wanna dm questions im cool with that :]

[desert granite]

And also I agree with what Fox said... I've had to deal with trauma from people who claim to be Christians so I get it. But at the same time I believe they are just poor examples (or terrible, or sometimes just evil counterfiets) of the truth.

[ocean steeple]

Hey some unsolicited thoughts from a lurker on this thread:

Christianity, in terms of following and believing in Christ, is inherently and fundamentally accepting of people. Jesus selected, defended, embraced the despised of society - tax collectors, the woman at the well, Saul a former persecutor of Christians, the adulterous woman who was about to be stoned….

He said himself it is not the healthy who need a doctor but the sick, and that’s whom he came to call to repentance.

That second part is important: the call to repentance. So while Christianity is accepting of people, it isn’t “accepting” of sin. Jesus always said to those he healed: go and sin no more. But that’s also where things sometimes go wrong, because sometimes in our zeal to emphasize the (true) severity and evil nature of sin and the necessity of turning away from it, we forget to communicate that with love and mercy and instead become overly harsh and even hateful.

There’s a delicate balance between being firm about the reality of sin and being gentle in our call away from it.

But we can also go too far in the opposite direction, shying away from stating our true views on things like paganism, which we view as idolatry and therefore an insult to God that must not be accepted.
Assuming Tyler and Josh are Christians, I don’t think they would be happy about their lyrics being interpreted in a way that brings people further away from Christianity (and towards something like paganism)

Thoughts?

[fallow ermine]

I don’t think it’s a good idea to make any statements about what Tyler or Josh would or would not be happy about. The only thing they’ve ever made clear is that they’re happy people listen to their music regardless of the reason.

But otherwise, I agree with you. Christianity is a faith in someone who promises to change you, by loving you. You’re not accepted and then left alone. You’re commanded, “die to yourself,” and “run the race,” and “fight the fight.” It’s an ongoing process of being less like who you used to be and more like who you’re meant to be: an image-bearer of Christ.

I know it makes people uncomfortable and I know we want to talk about the music freely here. But if we are Christians, I think this is a good reminder that our allegiance and loyalty is to Christ first. And He loved people too much to leave them where they were without at least saying what was true and not true, no matter where He was or what the agreed-upon-topic was. So thank you for being brave enough to speak up.

[outer drum]

as a pagan myself i don’t think tyler is the type of person to condemn pagans for listening to his music.

keep in mind that a lot of christian stories have roots in greek mythology. i personally believe all religions coexist at once and each deity picks their own followers. the reason i converted to paganism was because i never got any signs that the christian god was actively listening to my prayers, and the environment my church wasn’t positive for me. i was constantly told my non-religious friends would go to hell and that it would be my fault.

you can personally believe i’m gonna go to hell, but that doesn’t mean that while i’m alive i can’t listen to specific music. At the end of the day no religion could be real. We’re all kinda just super intelligent gorillas on a spinning rock at the end of the day.

Religious tolerance is such an important thing in this world, and with how tyler and josh present themselves it’s obvious that they have religious tolerance. They’ve literally said they’re christian guys in a band, not a christian band and that they don’t want to push their religion onto people because the clique is for everyone.

[ocean steeple]

Thank you! Yeah, the only thing in the statement I was unsure about was whether I should bring up Tyler and Josh at all. I do think we can make some statements as to what they would or wouldn’t be thrilled about, for example if someone misinterpreted lyrics and thought they were glorifying suicide/mental illness, or listened to Mulberry Street and decided to stop taking medication, etc.

But true, we don’t really know their full religious beliefs, and we shouldn’t worship them either or base our beliefs on theirs. Perhaps I should have worded to say more generally that Christians likely wouldn’t be happy about people moving further from Christianity

[ocean steeple]

Absolutely, I hope you continue listening to the music!

[outer drum]

if twenty one pilots was a strictly christian band then i most likely wouldn't listen to them, but they're not. i personally just believe life's too short to gatekeep music based on religion cause if the guys only wanted christians to listen to their music then they'd make that known.

i personally left Christianity cause being told that all my friends were gonna go to hell if i didn't tell them about jesus kinda impacts a small child's worldview yk? and it got to a point where i was also told that dinosaurs didn't exist and believing in evolution was against the bible. (i'm in a southern state btw so that's mainly why i was told that stuff) 😭

and if i seem like i'm trying to start i fight i don't intend to. sometimes i come off angry when i don't mean to

[ocean steeple]

I’m so sorry to hear that. It really sucks that you had a negative experience and that it seems your church centralized around the fear of hell rather than love of God. And dinosaurs not existing!! Gosh 😨

[outer drum]

i was like 7-8 and i was like "what about the dinos?" during sunday school and some kid turned to me and was like "the bible doesn't mention them so they weren't real." and i think that's when i discovered the concept of ragebait cause theres absolutely NO WAY they were being serious 😭

[ocean steeple]

No don’t worry, and I hope I didn’t come across as saying you shouldn’t listen to the music. I’m mostly talking to the other Christians in the thread because I noticed there wasn’t any pushback, and I think it’s our duty to lovingly, gently stand up for what we believe is the truth, especially in a thread about Christianity.

[ocean steeple]

That’s crazy. It has always bothered me so much when people think science and Christianity are fundamentally incompatible. It requires such a shallow reading/understanding of the Bible

Do you mind if I ask a question about paganism/your beliefs? I have never met a pagan so I’m very curious

[outer drum]

of course!

[ocean steeple]

So you mentioned you believe all religions coexist, does that mean you think they are all true? more specifically for paganism, do you believe the Greek gods have a real existence, or is it more symbolic for you?

[desert granite]

-# 😭 No, the Bible actually does mention dinosaurs, just a word dinosaur didn’t exist yet so you gotta look closer The leviathan and behemoth in Job definitely seem to be descriptions of dinosaurs, the behemoth seems very consistent with a brontosaurus-style dinosaur (I forget if bronto is the fake one technically but you get the idea). Anywayyyysss yeah I’ve spent a lot of time in how the Bible and science work hand in hand and you don’t have to reject either so a Christian just ignoring dinosaurs triggers me😭 it’s not remotely the most important thing here like

[outer drum]

so sorry for the late response i had to do something.

i do actually believe in the greek gods! i do believe in their existence as they're really the only gods that have actively given me signs and listened to my prayers, but also other deities give others that same feeling, so that's kinda my worldview.

one of my best friends is christian and i've seen how her god has helped her in similar ways as to how my gods have helped me.

[ocean steeple]

Interesting! So then do you believe her God is also real because she’s experienced that?

[outer drum]

yeah! I just don't worship him if that makes sense.

And I kinda have a strong intuition when it comes to spiritual work. I was in Europe earlier this year and I visited a few catholic churches cause yk, it's Europe, you gotta see what the Catholics are up to, and when I entered a few of those Churches I did feel a divine presence, but it wasn't as strong as it was when I visited my own gods temples in Greece back in 2024.

my dms are open if you'd like to talk more :)

[fallow ermine]

Yes it is, thank you again

[fallow ermine]

It’s interesting that you’re sharing that perspective, I just had a conversation with someone who said roughly the same thing, that they believe all “deities” we name are real spiritual presences, and people worship different ones and judge others unworthy of worship. The Bible actually teaches this too—that there’s a whole spiritual world, and humans do worship some of those presences, but God claims He is the only God (big G) and the only one worthy of worship. I’d love to talk about that in DMs, because I’m just now exploring that part of the worldview—but only if you want to, of course!

[outer drum]

my dms are open if you wanna talk more about it :D

[outer drum]

@fallow ermine

[hardy parrot]

Heheheheh

Okay I’m catching up with the thread, I’ve been away 🖤

[hidden ivy]

This is something that my husband has been learning a lot about lately. He's been looking into the work of Michael Heiser and he did a lot of research and teaching on ancient "gods" and the spiritual realm in the Bible. Very interesting stuff

[fallow ermine]

Yeah Michael Heiser was specifically where I started realizing it from. His podcast “The Naked Bible” is really helpful but I think “The Unseen Realm” is also like a free audiobook on Libby and hoopla

[frozen abyss]

On the topic of TOP choosing not to be overtly Christian, I was listening to Paul Meany's new album and went on a deep dive into Mutemath's history, even just on Wikipedia, and found it interesting their choice to specifically not go for a "Christian" association with their band (and even go thru issues with it with Warner!) even though they are also Christian and have a history with it with Earthsuit.

Knowing how much Paul Meany influences TOP and has been so closely involved with production, if I were to speculate I'd imagine Tyler and Josh and Paul probably hang out a lot (especially in those taco bell runs...?) and discuss what Paul has learned from experience navigating those kinds of topics within the industry... https://youtube.com/shorts/7XSSvZBEHyM?si=cs37M7Lw0Ja-rU-h

[frozen abyss]

It also makes me think that there's probably so much about the music industry world that we have no clue in understanding unless you live through it. But it sort of also makes me sad that there's people actively trying not to be put in the Christian music label box. What happens in that box?!

And while reflecting on that I thought about how TØP loves to challenge themselves with their music genre, their artistic vision and storytelling, etc. And how their main message is to express yourself creatively to get through the dark times, which is what has worked for them. So it sounds like maybe the Christian box in the music industry might have a lot of control over people's artistic expression.

Can't say much else beyond my speculation because I listen to zero Christian music, but would love to hear thoughts on people that have been involved in Christian music- especially @desert granite !

There's someone else here too but I forgot your name! I remember watching your video wherever you are just can't search rn

[supple vector]

I know that there's been a lot of negative press around the whole "Christian music industry" and I know last year there was a major scandal with a former member of a very popular 2000s/2010s Christian band. I think especially recently there just been a lot of controversy and I think that's why people tend to shy away from labeling themselves so they won't be aligned with the Christian industry. I'm not saying that exactly what tøp are doing but it could be one explanation

[desert granite]

Yeah I'll share a little about this. THe_Idea_Basket is right, and honestly I'm generally not a fan of those involved in the Christian music industry. Forrest Frank and Josiah Queen have been examples of what I want Christian music to be like, and they seem like the outliers. But from others, I've often heard things I don't like, had significant theological concerns as a beleiver (the most prominent one is feel-good Christianity without any struggle at least in what gets promoted. And yes, there have been scandals. So I get not wanting to be associated with the industry 100%, and not wanting that image being what the label wanrts from you. That's one reaon I;d be intersted to see what TOP would do ifg they got more open, because it wouldnt be like the industry (Typing fast, lots of typos lol)

[frozen abyss]

Interesting, thanks for your insights! And I wasn't even thinking about controversy within that side of the industry on the idea of feel-good vs talking about struggle. And especially since they need to appease to many different kinds and types of Christians under different denominations

I can see how it might feel like a burden or restriction if you are trying to be innovative potentially

[desert granite]

I have a lot of thoughts in this area lol but yeah, it's tough

[frozen abyss]

Would love to hear more if you're willing to share! I'm so curious!

[desert granite]

I won't go too deep into it in this chat, but I do believe that a lot of Christians, particularly in the west, are not serious enough about their faith. Everyone has to grow from somewhere so I don't hold anything negative against those who don't but are growing and learning, but those who have influence (at least those who have influence as believers over believers as part of the Christian sphere) should be helping people along in growth and godliness, not pandering to what people want to hear. Christ had strong words against those who would pander to what is accepted to hear instead of what needed to be said.
Buuuuuuuuut most of, not all of but most of, Christian music industry has a tendency to do that anyway.

The main point though is that Christ has sent us to share His word and many Christians don't, and I understand why it's just unfortunate and hopefully can shift. And I've talked about it before but we want to share what we beleive because we love you and want to maximize our chances of saying or doing something that we truly believe could lead you to life in heaven after death instead of hell.

I think I may have rambled a litte but this is a good synopsis of what more thoughts I have 🫠

Also I'm tired so if I said anything that doesn't make sense sorry and feel free to ask for clarification and I'll get back to it at some point 🥱

[frozen abyss]

Rest up friend!

[frozen abyss]

Ok SO random but I was going to respond to you completely differently, then the clikkie hive mind had this make its way towards me in a different corner of discord about the Tyler-rejecting-to-play-for-TSwift lore. It's a 3min clip of Five14 sermon... but surprisingly matches up with some of our recent speculations and discussions here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/twentyonepilots/comments/nzqp0o/taylor_swift_once_invited_twenty_one_pilots_to/

The entire sermon is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78gBRJ08vOw and now I am actually very curious to listen to it all!

[desert granite]

I have no idea what situation involved TØP and TSwift but I’m all for checking out a Five14 sermon that relates to our convos so I’ll have to check it out later!

[frozen abyss]

if short on time and wanna skip some of the intro fluff to get to the meat and potatoes of the sermon, it's around here https://youtu.be/78gBRJ08vOw?si=7zgdErXwGTwhlCwN&t=413 he starts to define will power

[outer drum]

idk why but this entire thread is making me question my religion 😭

[frozen abyss]

Honestly, I think it makes sense to question anything and everything! It's part of what makes us human 💗 and allows us to try different frameworks and find something that feels right for us. And that is ok!

Also, many religions come with so much attached culture and subcultures and different ways of interpreting certain teachings and language, which can be overwhelming. And not to mention the ones that use it as a manipulation weapon as we have discussed here multiple times too. It's hard to sort through what feels right and what feels familiar and also sort through whatever teachings you grew up with that you later found evidence (within your life journey) to disagree with.

I personally feel that the more "spiritual" and "open minded to signs" I've become, the more intimate and clear my relationship with "The" higher power becomes. I've lived through enough life to see the benefits of a positive mindset and the pitfalls of a negative mindset. I've seen and learned to identify many manipulation red flags for wolves dressed in sheep's clothing. I've spent countless hours in therapy trying to understand and deconstruct why abusers abuse. And so much of my work in therapy and in processing anxiety and grief has led me to understanding the point of why people "look for signs" and miracles, to the point of remembering that just our existence in it of itself is a purely magical and miraculous thing in it of itself, and seeing that beauty in others especially when mortality becomes a huge reminder in different seasons of life. And I feel like just meditating on those topics I mentioned is part of the point of it all.

[outer drum]

ive been pagan for the past 3 years of my life, but cause i'm apart of a system we have a few alters who are christian, causing me to severely question my beliefs sometimes.

i'm gonna test out christianity again and go from there :3

[earnest pelican]

Hi hi, a fellow Catholic here! I'm sorry to hear that because of your faith you lost friends. I hope you're surrounded with lovely people now. Some of my friends are Catholic (they are the nicest folks I know), and those who are not have always been open to talk respectfully about religion. And I agree with you that religious music is not only for religious people. In the same way Christians can listen to secular music and enjoy it just as much as others. Instead of being divided, we should search for what we have in common, even if we disagree sometimes

(I think this entire thread proves that people from different backgrounds, with different beliefs, can share their opinions and have meaningful yet calm conversations)

[desert granite]

As I’ve said before, please let me know if you’d like to talk about anything, including the hard parts of the faith! As always I promise to be respectful of course. I’ve been a Christian for a really long time and had to struggle with a lot. I’d love to talk if you’re open to it since this is where you are right now. Praying for you!

[supple vector]

I'm so thankful for this thread and for all you lovely people, because of the circumstances of me growing up I've never had very many non-christian friends, and a lot of you in this thread, whether you are Christian or not, have helped me understand where people are coming from/reasons people can lose/gain faith.

I feel like half the things I say on this server are thank you messages but I really am so grateful for so many different aspects of this community and our differences.

Thank you all for existing, and being vulnerable enough on this crazy place we call the internet to be able to share your struggles and thoughts on religion, doubt, spirituality and so much more. You are all so lovely 💜 |-/

[outer drum]

thank you. i'm just kinda lost rn ngl. i love being a pagan but the others in my head (i'm a member of a system) have been influencing my religious beliefs subconsciously, which makes it even more confusing 😅

if anyone here is willing to help me out i'd appreciate it :)

[earnest pelican]

It's okay to feel lost sometimes. I mean religion is an important aspect of our lives and submitting to a belief system is a big commitment one can make. So don't rush, take your time to learn. It's not about choosing something quickly, it's about choosing wisely. I believe you are genuinely curious about spiritual stuff - and that's a good start!

[hidden ivy]

I'm praying for you right now! Being lost and uncertain about your beliefs is one of the hardest places to be. But, in my own life, it's out from those pits of uncertainty that God pulls me up into the strongest and most peaceful places in my faith.

Even king David in the Bible (the "man after God's own heart") experienced times of doubt and questioning. Look at Psalm 42:9-11. God can handle your questioning and your doubts. He wrote it all out in His Word and showed us His grace and mercy through His own Son so that we could come to Him in these moments. I'd be happy to talk to you more just like others have said!

[ocean steeple]

Always happy to talk. I’ve been through several deep periods of doubt and struggle with faith so I know how hard it can be, but I’ve also learned not to be afraid of questions. And I’d like to think I’m pretty good at sharing the answers I’ve found 😉

[tulip copper]

I think it's actually been the periods of doubt where I've been angry at God and have doubted his love for me that has given me the strongest faith. I've found that he can be trusted and that if you seek him, he will be found.

[fallow ermine]

I was literally just reading Psalm 42, wild

[desert granite]

#1434293116030156940 message Wanted to share this with you all here to make sure you all didn't miss it in the suggestions channels, I didn't realize until recently how bad it was

[fallow ermine]

Thank you

[frozen abyss]

https://youtu.be/GE35k3-X7wI?si=XvMCmENjiqc963b8

Forgot about this clip from his Trench interview days!

[frozen abyss]

Ooh got recommended this one too, hasn't seen this interview before! https://youtu.be/iiKWFvVPQQY?si=nKqA5xOhncgOWsPG

[tulip copper]

That's a good one 👍🏽

[supple vector]

I was just thinking that I wish I had this community when I was 15. I was a very casual fan of tøp at the time, like only knew ride, heathens, and stressed out casual. I was also struggling deeply with my faith and my identity. I feel like this clique would have helped me understand what it means when you have faith but you also struggle with mental health crap sometimes. I mean I made it through, and I'm here now, but I wish I found you guys earlier 💜

[tulip copper]

Yeah, I remember making comments about how I was struggling in my faith and getting blank looks from people. I really could have used a forum like this too. And TØP. They weren't around yet for me

[pine wing]

I love how intimate with religion Tally is. It really sounds to me like something I could say to Jesus as He held me. 10/10

[fallow ermine]

Totally agree. The idea of "just figured you were keeping track of every time I let you down, breached your trust, let you die" but He's not. Because He "has cast your sins as far as the east is from the west" and "remembers them no more." And "love keeps no record of wrongs."

[tulip copper]

And the line "you want a tally, I lost the count " - I've taken it to mean 'how many times have I (God) abandoned you, how many times have I given up?'

[limber dove]

Recommend listing to this

[desert granite]

Love this song

[fallow ermine]

Me too

[fallow ermine]

I've never thought of it that way, you're saying that like God would be confessing how many times He's "abandoned" Tyler?

[tulip copper]

I'm saying God is asking "have I ever given up on you? " have I ever abandoned you? Haven't I ALWAYS gone to find you?

So I think there are two Tallys being discussed.
"You want a tally, I lost the count. " God is reminding Tyler of his love that doesn't ever give up.

Then Tyler is saying "look at all the times I failed you. "

Maybe a third Tally - because "I just figured you were keeping track." (But He wasn't)

[agile palm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuoTBaPDDtA I was thinking of you guys when I came up on a Gable Price and Friends Video of a song of there's called "Heretic (Reimagined)". He has a line in the song "Offend My Mind" which made me think of Tyler "address my soul" from City Walls. This is the first time I've ever heard this song and I am blown away.

The Original is more upbeat but reminded me of how Tyler made the Berlin mix of "The Hype".

[supple vector]

I've heard good things about that band! I'm definitely gonna check more of their music out

[outer drum]

been a while since i last talked in here but considering this thread is about religion i decided i wanted to share my own religious interpretation of TB.

I see TB as a metaphor for Hermes as he’s also a guide. he guides souls to the underworld. I also see him as a metaphor for Hestia since she’s the goddess of the hearth.

anyways back into the shadows i go.

[hidden fable]

Hey, check this out, this whole chapter has so much of Breach spread throughout it, but the end hits on Tally for sure.

https://www.bible.com/bible/97/ISA.43.MSG

Also, I came across this a while ago and read it again. It is very encouraging to read when you feel defeated or in despair. It is written from a father to son perspective, but is universally applicable. I hope it finds someone else who could use the encouragement. If that is you, I promise, you are not alone.

[frozen abyss]

I don't know how to express how particularly poignant seeing this message was relative to what I've been wishing from the universe and the guidance I've been quietly looking for.

A few days ago I was almost tempted to ask a question in this specific thread that would have resulted in your answer. I pushed through with coping mechanisms and having this overwhelming "intuition" to just wait.

God truly is so powerful... <3!

[desert granite]

Amen, He is. I hope He uses that to help you in where you’re at!

[hidden fable]

I am glad to hear that. I just felt like someone needed to read that too. I actually made that the wallpaper on my phone so that I see it regularly.

If I had to pick a tøp song or two that describes my current situation it would be Trapdoor on one end and Johnny Boy on the other. I need all the prayers and inspiration that I can get.

I will keep you in my thoughts and pray that you have a good support system available and receive regular encouragement.
#feelinlikeimrundown

[fallow ermine]

I’ve seen them live three times and my bro in law texts directly with the lead singer. Something about them touches a few of the same heartstrings twenty one pilots does for me

[hidden fable]

New music Friday. I would love to see tøp and NF do a tour.

https://open.spotify.com/album/6KLrnVqUhPpX4IzgHgsJTg?si=OcascBwvRAiIOx1gaxIFDQ

[hidden fable]

This EP is interesting, the lyrics have strong Breach parallels imo. I also love that NF collaborates with a variety of artists. Shows the diversity of his talent, but reaches so many people who may not hear about God, mental health and find community otherwise. FEAR has collaborations with mgk and James Arthur. His last album, Hope, had a track with Tech N9ne. Good stuff!

[supple vector]

I'm definitely gonna take some time and give this a listen, I've enjoyed a few of NFs songs but I haven't sat down and listened to an album or an EP of his yet

[tulip copper]

I found out about TØP's lore because my son was watching all the NF videos trying to figure out if he also had lore in his videos like TØP.
He's so good - honest and well written lyrics

[hidden fable]

His lyrics are so raw. I feel like Tyler is very metaphorical and his lyrics can be received so many ways by so many people. There is no guessing what NF is trying to say, his lyrics hit hard, but pull you close.

Two phenomenal artists, that express themselves so open and honestly. They really help give so many the words they can’t express.

You should give his album Hope a listen, it is 🔥 imo.

[chrome kraken]

!!!

As someone who loves all types of mythologies from religions, this is such a cool chat!

[agile palm]

You should really check out “Why do you love me?” It sounds like something Tyler has written already.

[spice mural]

LEVEL UP: You are now level 8!

Level Bonus

You gained 288 credits for leveling up!

[tame gorge]

you believe in me somehow 🗣️🗣️🗣️

[outer drum]

i know this is from almost a month ago but that last bit of your message has kinda stuck with me in a bad way.

like in a “i can’t listen to the music the same” kinda way

[ocean steeple]

Hey, I think we talked a little bit about that, and you can read the later messages, but I’ll just add that music is for everyone, and we all get to decide how we use it and what we get out of it.

I can disagree with what that looks like on a case by case basis, and I’d say some interpretations are harmful or shouldn’t be celebrated. But ultimately you’re free to choose for yourself, and I’m just a random person on the internet sharing my beliefs 🙂

I shouldn’t have brought in Tyler and Josh as I can’t speak for them, I can only speak for myself and what I understand about Christianity

[limber dove]

Fear song of nf is forest coded

Both talking about burning something the adore but finding out it was them

Nate has his mansion and tyler has his tree house!!

[ocean steeple]

The fear music video might be best MV ive ever seen

[limber dove]

This is not what you're supposed to see
Please, remember me. I am supposed to be
King of a kingdom or swinging on a swing
Something happened to my imagination
The situation's becoming dire
My tree house is on fire
And for some reason I smell gas on my hands
This is not what I had planned
This is not what I had planned.

Desperate

Standing back
Watching my mansion
Burn to ash while I—
Hold the gas can
Asking God if
He started this fire

Is this what You wanted?
Is this what You wanted?

[chrome kraken]

It's my first time in this chat and I'm a bit confused and wanted to ask a question before I post any of my opinions.
Is this chat is a Christian chat or a Religious chat? The title says Religious Freedom, but is this a place for people who are not Christian to share their thoughts as well?

[limber dove]

Nf x TØP collab please 🙏 😭

[supple vector]

This chat is for anyone on the server to share, it's not necessarily just for those who believe in Christianity

[chrome kraken]

okay awesome!

On second thought I may not post here sorry. I've been reading back through the chat.
#1373173133451722813 message
Calling my religion "An insult to God that must not be accepted." seems needlessly abrasive, especially as there seem to be multiple pagans in this chat who are just as devout in their faith as I'm sure any Christian is to theirs.

While I'm more than willing to respect other's faith, I can't comfortably participate in a community that won't respect mine in return.

TØP music is in no way intended solely for Christian audiences.
And even if it were, just as Christians are allowed and encouraged to interpret songs not by Christian writers through a Christian worldview: So too should any other religious person be given space to freely relate to media that wasn't strictly intended for them. Space where they are not having their faith called out by name and labeled an insult to a god.

[tame gorge]

i think where the heart is coming from is that every person who follows a religion/god views that as an objective truth not subjective. but i agree with you that all beliefs should have the freedom to express and keep their own faiths. faith itself is a choice not under someone else’s control

in the same way music can be interpreted many different ways. it’s less of “hey this person has something to say about x thing” and more of “this is what it means to me”

i say this as a Christian, especially in the US that line is not getting drawn enough between church and state, people should be free to make their own decisions about religions without being shamed for it, conviction is not the same as shame

[outer drum]

i hate how our first amendment right to freedom of religion is overlooked so much

[outer drum]

and it’s not like if we told tyler that we were pagan fans that he’d say something like “erm turn to jesus! 🤓☝️”

like i had a dream last night where i asked josh his opinions on witchcraft and he said “it’s cool! just please don’t curse me.” and i feel like that’s something he’d genuinely say 😭🙏

[chrome kraken]

"It's cool, please don't curse me" is a mood tbh 😭

[outer drum]

it’s funny too cause i’ve been thinking about asking Queen Hera to keep an eye on Debby to make sure her pregnancy goes smoothly cause of how stressful having your first kid can be. maybe that’s my sign to NOT go for it 😭

[outer drum]

also the fact that, especially in this space, we are the minority.

either way we’re a minority, pagans and witches will always be the minority, but there’s so much hostility between christian fans and non-christian fans to the point where, sometimes, i don’t even feel safe speaking about or sharing my interpretations regarding my religion in this fandom. (examples below)

tyler says intentions are everything and it’s clear a lot of these people don’t have the best of intentions, which is ironic because a lot of pagan practices and spellwork run on intentions. in the mix of our religions intentions quite literally are everything.

anyways those are my two cents :) 🙂‍↕️

[tulip copper]

I don't think I've seen hostility towards religions other than Christianity. I'm sorry if you've felt that. Disagreement doesn't mean there is hostility.

[outer drum]

in personal aspects as well i’ve seen a lot of hostility

specifically within my own family

[tulip copper]

I'm sorry that you've experienced that. I think that as Christian, there is a tendency to be afraid when we people we love believe differently than we do because we're afraid of what might happen to them after they die. I've had to realize that it's not up to me though - you can't make someone believe what you believe. Hopefully tour family members are motivated from the right place (wanting the best for you) even if it's not being expressed in the kindest way. I don't know if this makes a difference to you but I'll pray that there can be a breakthrough in the area of communication and beliefs between you and these family members.

[tulip copper]

Also, something that's hard/weird/maybe unique about Christianity is that we believe that believing in Jesus is the only way to life after death, but we also believe that you can't make people believe - it's your choice. So there's this weird push and pull - you want people to believe but you know you can't make them. I don't know if it's possible in your situation, but maybe see beyond the abrasiveness and see that your family members love you and want the best for you?

[outer drum]

it’s also just in a way where my mom specifically will roll her eyes whenever i talk my own religion, which it got to the point where i don’t bring it up anymore , or move things around on the altars i have set up for my gods when she comes into my room.

it’s not like “oh follow jesus” it’s majority just ignorance and disrespect from my family, except for my older sister, who’s buddhist

[tulip copper]

That's hard when it feels like there's different standards for different people.
Does your mom have spiritual practices? It would be interesting to have a conversation about what you each get out of what you are doing in your religious practice.

[outer drum]

not really. she’s one of those christians who kinda just go to church every now and then and pray before dinner but that’s it. never seen her read a bible despite owning one.

i’m probably the most spiritual one in my household

[tulip copper]

Yeah, it sounds like you have some meaningful, tangible practices.
I know that's been really important for us with our kids. We read the Bible and go through some historical prayers every night. It's helpful to have that rhythm so that even when things are crazy or hard, we have something solid to return to.

[outer drum]

i try to light my candles every night and i even redecorated Apollo’s altar today! (had to clean my dresser anyways, ignore me in the mirror)

getting back in the spiritual rhythm after a while of burn out has been a blessing for me.

[ocean steeple]

Hey, I don’t think any one is trying to prevent such a space from existing some place.

I think there also needs to be space given to Christians who want to share their views though, no matter how unpopular or seemingly abrasive. By having conviction in Christian beliefs, I necessarily cannot be “accepting” of every other belief or behavior - and that is quite strongly true in the case of paganism, which at its core is seen as insulting to God in the Judeo-Christian framework, and has always been strongly opposed. In fact my religion compels me to warn against it. That doesn’t mean I want to silence your voice though. I just value the truth above making everyone feel comfortable all the time.

that being said, up until recently this chat had mostly been a fruitful place where Christians were sharing their faith with each other. If you cannot comfortably participate in this particular community, no one is going to force you to!

[desert granite]

Everyone can talk in here of course! Those of us who are Christians will sometimes have convos in here that wouldn't be super accepted in other contexts so I guess that's my only 'warning.'

It's tough when we have such diametrically opposed worldviews that I cannot in good conscience, like pretend that I'm okay with that worldview, cause to do so would be against my own- but I also think it's fair to say that I and the majority in this chat are very accepting of other people, just while not afraid to share where we disagree and if we disagree strongly. And we also usually draw a sharp line between having a problem with a worldview or action vs having a problem with a particular person, and that distinction stems from what we believe.

And we tend to be a little more reserved elsewhere in this server, this thread just helps us be able to discuss theories that relate to our beliefs without concern that other people will be unaccepting or abrasive of our beliefs.

[chrome kraken]

I understand, I was raised Mormon until I escaped, so I am broadly aware of Christian theology around Pagans.

It would be rude of me to ask you to be silent about a part of your doctrine, even if that doctrine is inherently intolerant, dismissive and dehumanizing towards my existence and faith. And I apologize for that.
You are right, up until recently this chat was mostly if not entirely Christian and I'm sure it was enjoyable for you and your fellow Christians, as it should be! :3

I think to avoid drama and other people leaving in the future, there should be either a Christian only chat, or perhaps a tolerant religious chat where there are more ground rules around what content is acceptable to post. I don't pretend to know how to go about creating or modding one, it's just a silly suggestion.
Good bye!! 😘 may Baphomet watch over you! 🫂

[desert granite]

I'm sorry you feel anything we said is intolerant, but I want to firmly say that it is never the intention of a well-meaning Christian to be dehumanizing in any way. Your existence is valued immensely. Idk what the mormons teach about it but I do know that I disagree with them in most, or nearly all, areas of theology (but they are also entirely valued!). To be clear, the primary Christian position would be that you are deceived, but just as capable of being saved as anyone else (there were many, many, Christians in the early church that came from Greco-Roman pagan backgrounds, who as far as I know previously worshipped the same gods you do). I'm not going to try to convince you that that's true, I know you're not open to that and I don't want to come across as shoving my religion or being unloving.

All I want to do is make the point that we love you guys as much as anyone, and we truly want the best for you, but we do have very different beliefs on what the best is. I do think your last phrase was well intentioned, so I think I echo a positive sentiment and say that I hope the Lord blesses you and reveals Himself to you if He wills to. Good-bye, and all the best!

[tawdry tartan]

hey guys- just a reminder, this community is meant to be welcoming to all, regardless of one’s religious views. we need to keep this channel for theories and not push religion on others here. this server is for every person, every religion, and although the band makes music with christian undertones and connection, it doesn’t mean we can exclude others or treat others differently because they’re not religious/not christian.

Let’s keep this to just theories, okay?

[hidden fable]

Hey, I just saw your comment. I am a Christian, but tbh, I am just as f***ed up as everyone else. Religious trauma is real! Unfortunately, people want to manipulate and pervert things intended to be good and religion makes it easy as all humans are inherently spiritual beings. It doesn’t mater the religion either; Christianity, Mormonism, Paganism, etc. At the end of the day we are all just people on the ground searching for what we were/are created for. I personally believe that Jesus would have hung out with the people who are often judged and rejected by the church today. Believe what you believe, no one on earth has the right or authority to condemn that, within obvious legal limitations of course. I believe that the God I serve loves and cares for you no matter what and my job is to try my best to reflect that. Here is one of my favorite Jesus memes.

[hidden fable]

Hey Friends! It’s been a while, but my life is currently insane and I had to start adulting again. I did have an interesting thought this morning that I’d like to share though. Johnny Boy is an anthem song for me right now. Tyler wrote when his dad lost his job during the recession in 2007.

The song is so inspiring though from both a spiritual and family perspective. But there are some lyrics that carry double meaning imo and I want to point them out and see if it speaks to anyone else who might need to hear it. I hear the song in two parts a son and a father and a relationship with Christ.

These are the lyrics that really stick out though.

1. “Get up Johnny boy because the world has left you lying on the ground”, we are called to care for each other and Christ calls on us to move despite or situation.
2. “You’re my pride and joy”, this is how we see our children, but also how Christ sees us.
3. “I will carry all your names and I will carry all you shame”, this is often the reality of what we, as parents, pass along to our children. However, on the flip side this is the freedom offered by Christ. We don’t have to carry the names and shame that the world has put on us nor do we have to continue negative generational family cycles and dynamics.

Kind of a long post, but I find this encouraging and hope it finds its way to someone else who is needing encouragement.

[exotic sundial]

reminder that this is a theory post

if it’s not a theory you can discuss it somewhere else

[hidden fable]

Hello mod friend! That is part of what I liked about this thread though. Now that we have seen the lore through to the end of the breach tour, where does that leave us on theorizing though? I mean if anything it would be philosophical at this point. I always liked how we could be theological here too. Theology being used as in a broad sense. I am honestly asking and not trying to be antagonistic.

[exotic sundial]

there are always things to theorize about, as much as the lore story seems “over” there are plenty of pieces of the lore that are still open to connect. these threads are for making those connections and discussing them, not theological discussion. if you want to discuss things like that you can talk to people in #homotown #aroacetown or #drag-queen-path and if it’s band related you can discuss it in #pilots-discussion

once this discussion moves away from a theory it is no longer the correct conversation for this space and should occur somewhere else

[hidden fable]

I hear ya. This thread was always unique in that way as it mixed the two as the title implies. Sounds like it may have drifted to far away from center while I was away.

[tame gorge]

i feel like these things to relate to the story because they provide context for how we see the lore. i don’t see the benefit of making a place like this so strict when it’s not harming anybody

plus there is no current location dedicated to that conversation, hometown and slowtown would not be the best place for that

[ocean steeple]

It’s unfortunate because everyone actually active in this thread seems to enjoy and want it to talk about theology too lol.

It had turned into a place where we all could turn to, to nerd out and support each other in these things. Unfortunately the more general threads would likely be very hostile to us trying to talk about our Christian faith.

It’s really just the mods wanting to hammer down on this being for theories, which I guess I get, but I highly doubt they’d open up a thread specifically for these faith discussions if we asked.

To make this a theory: this seems heavily related to Downstairs 🕵️🕵️

[hidden fable]

I think it is more about inclusivity. It can’t just be limited to Christianity. There are a lot of spiritual themes in tøp lore and all people regardless of (insert your particular area for inclusion here) deserve a safe place to express, share and enlighten others about their beliefs. That is what I really liked about this thread, but overall what I really like about being part of this fanbase. Everyone is welcome. You know, we’re broken people, our brains are sick, but that’s ok.

[ocean steeple]

I agree! I guess my only thing would be, I’d also like to be free/safe to express when my belief goes against someone else’s, especially as my religion compels me to do so, as long as I’m not attacking the person or not accepting them. I think tolerance must extend to tolerating disagreement

[hidden fable]

With that I ask everyone to share what about you beliefs tie into the lore our could contribute to some of their inspiration? You know in this house we are feng shui and all the 3, 6, 9 stuff.

[hidden fable]

It’s the nature and intent of your statement. It is just respectful conversations really. We are all here because of a common interest. We shouldn’t be trying to convert people. I find other religions fascinating personally. So many share the same principles at their core. The nuances are different but they are mostly all based on looking beyond yourself and caring for others.

Outside of that our differences are how we learn about each other. Basically, it’s not really going against, it is more like saying, oh that’s interesting, my beliefs say xxxx about that. From there it is fun to explore similarities and differences. In the end it will only help your ability to share your faith as you will understand others.

[exotic sundial]

this IS a space for connecting lore to religion. talking about you see a connection between a bible story and city walls or how you think torchbearer is the holy spirit is a perfect conversation for here. talking about how you connect march to the sea to your own religious journey is a conversation for #pilots-discussion . talking about your own religious journey unrelated to the lore is a conversation for any of our general chats, or #positivity if it’s a positive experience

we do our best to make everywhere a safe space for your views and experiences but ask you respect that there are specific channels that exist for specific conversations and to not be off topic in those channels

[tulip copper]

Could we set up a Christian/ religious thread under Outskirts of Dema to have a more general religious conversation and keep this thread for theories specifically about the music and lore?

[exotic sundial]

i will bring that idea up to the staff team

[ocean steeple]

Let’s goooo!

[tulip copper]

Sorry, totally didn't read your post that essentially answered my question

[fallow ermine]

If someone could tag me or DM me as soon as this idea is approved, that would be great. “Tell people the truth as it is found in the Bible” is a practice of the religion of Christianity, just like wearing a kippah would be a practice of the religion of Orthodox Judaism or taking time to perform prayer five times a day would be a practice of the religion of Islam. It is kind of an oxymoron for a Christian to be discussing Christianity in any capacity and not have it include “tell people the truth as it is found in the Bible” when someone who isn’t a Christian participates in that discussion. So I’m excited to potentially have that space.

Which kind of reminds me of the lyrics in Center Mass, “tighter space than I used to know.”

[tawny tinsel]

I love the idea of a channel for Christian clikkies to chat.

[austere beacon]

I just discovered TØP this past Halloween (I’m a music reactor/artist/songwriter) and this band has changed my dna!

Their lore and music has really deeply resonated with me. I’m coming from a background of deep religious trauma, so my perspective on the dema story may be a little unique. I’m still a Christian… but it’s been a long hard road to get here because of the religious trauma I’ve had to unlearn, reconcile, and heal. For me, DEMA/Bishops represent the seized organized churches (in our real world, the 501c3 problem)… hijacked religion… religion causing damage in the name of God when they don’t actually represent or speak for him.

Then theres Torchbearer… representative of Jesus (or God, however you want to interpret).

For me, this story is about a lot of things. Addiction, mental health, faith. Trying to find your individual relationship with who Jesus/God actually is, after having to question everything you were ever taught under the authoritative/hijacked religion of corrupted people.

But I also really love that the lyrics are written in ways that can be interpreted in sooooooo many different ways & it’s never a concrete ONE way to understand it. I feel like Tyler is pretty genius about that.

While I’d love to be able to get music that’s more free and authentic to what the boys really want to do, and would likely love anything they make, I do hope they don’t lose the craft of writing in ways that can resonate with anyone. I feel like Tyler often writes in parable, and I think that’s fire. 🔥

[fallow ermine]

Everyone alive? Eyes up, Drag Path tonight! 👁️👁️

[hardy parrot]

Yes!!

[lyric dirge]

Im so hype!

[fallow ermine]

Do we think we’re going to see the meaning behind “Then I’ll know You’re also there / cuz proof is in the adversare” or do you think they’ll tie no meaning to that visually/they’ll tie it to the fans?

[desert granite]

Idk, I’m trying to be okay with it when things that are to me at least obviously about faith are tied to something else visually or contextually. I’m expecting fan related things but hoping for something a bit more clearly related

[lyric dirge]

I think it depends whether its lore or not. Lore i think it will be tb, if not then fans

[fallow ermine]

😔 As a repeat-struggler with doubt, I know that the actual antidote is to choose belief, even if you’re not…experiencing what you expect to experience. And choosing belief looks like taking action that lines up with that belief. So basically, I doubt and it eats me alive the longer I dwell on my doubt—but the moment I say, “I’m going to tell people about God regardless of how shaky I feel toward Him and about it right now,” the doubt gets a death-blow.

which makes me think of the lyrics in Downstairs, “you can have all I’ve made and all I’ve ever known, AND ((at the same time/even though)) I might doubt the process like I doubt the start.’

So that’s why I sometimes wish they’d be more open. I think it would help

[earnest pelican]

I kind of hope for something faith-related, especially after Downstairs which was a song about Tyler’s desire to be more open about what he believes in + Drag Path is not even on the album so as a separate thing doesn’t have to be connected to the lore at all. Honestly though I don’t really expect them to include any openly religious themes in the music video, considering for how many years they’ve been using very subtle symbolism

However I’d be happy if they surprised me

[austere beacon]

I was hoping after getting a Clancy album that we'd get a Torchbearer one. (highly doubt it'll actually happen, but would've been cool.) So I'm wondering if Drag Path will be pretty TB focused, particularly as an Epilogue to City Walls with TB saying Clancy was still out there & he'd keep trying.

[austere beacon]

I'm thinking we'll see Torchbearer finding Clancy. This line makes me think of the "there must be opposition in all things" kind of concept. If the devil finds him, then God must be there also, as the devil's presence would prove God's existence (as an opposite). If TB represents God/Jesus, his presence in this video, to me, would be the manifestation of those lines.

[fallow ermine]

Yeah, that;s what I figure, too! Doubt can actually be a proof that you’re saved—because to doubt, to look at your own struggle with the flesh (desire to sin,) and be concerned about that, is something that wouldn’t happen if flesh was all you are. Romans 7-9. But also (double meaning) yeah if the Devil exists, it’s all true, and so does God, and that’s the hope 🎉

[desert granite]

I so appreciate you sharing this. I've had often very similar experiences. I truly believe the Spirit is working in us at those times, if I focus on my own doubts I'm focusing on myself, but if I do the things that the Spirit leads me to do I know that He's working in me, and yeah that doubt gets a death blow cause its real. I can go back and forth on whether I have the intellectual stuff worked out but in those moments the assurance is that it is real regardless of the doubts

[austere beacon]

I've always felt that Faith is the opposite of Fear. Because of that, I would struggle with my fear, thinking it meant I was somehow not faithful or something. But then I realized that if Faith is God, and Fear is the Devil... then anytime I felt fear, it was probably the Devil trying to stop me from something great. When I viewed Fear in that way, it helped me appreciate the oppositional relationship between the two. If Fear was present, as the Devil trying to stop me... then it meant God was present too, it helped me remind me that God is real, and that strengthened my Faith to move forward.

[desert granite]

"Proof is in the adversere"
also James 4:7

[austere beacon]

I love this convo.

[tame gorge]

i love this verse if they cut it from the edit ima strangle someone

[austere beacon]

How y'all watching the new MV? I'm about to go live with my Twitch clikkies for a watch party 🫶🏼 SO EXCITED to see what they do with this song and the themes in it. And then to come back here and discuss some more post watch 😆

[tame gorge]

i’m gonna be working when it comes out so i’m hoping i can take a really long bathroom break 😭

[desert granite]

Nah I can only imagine the bridge repeat and instrumental sections getting cut (right? RIGHT??)

[tame gorge]

it’s possible it could be the instrumental breakdown

[austere beacon]

Well... off I go to Twitch. See all you wonderful frens on the flip side. 🙏🏼🙏🏼 Something tells me this thread about to be LIT after this video lol

[lyric dirge]

Either way it definitely will! I may not be the most active but im always reading, and its always lovely to see the like minded folks in this thread

[lyric dirge]

Im not crying, you are

[limber dove]

The hand that saves him

[topaz current]

man ..

[earnest pelican]

Okay so thoughts right after watching it for the first time: when the hand was reaching from the sky, I thought that creator always saves the creation but then it turned out to be a magician and I got confused again

[lyric dirge]

I think its still a metaphor for God

[earnest pelican]

Yeah it makes sense, I just expected something different

[noble snow]

Might be a reach but the rabbit getting pulled out of the hat, not by his own power but solely the hand of the magician, symbolizes Christ’s redemptive work on the cross and salvation coming from Christ alone. The rabbit being pulled out of his world into another dimension (heaven) where all of heaven rejoices because of another soul being saved by God (magician).

[lyric dirge]

I also see it as God saving him gives him the ability to perform for the audience and that God as the magician is always behind us

[desert granite]

Ok so building on this, it started with the City Walls sound, meaning this is an alternate ending so to speak

[austere beacon]

My interpretation is that Tyler is the young bunny. Sitting amongst his older generations.. father, grandfather, etc. He looks up to them to teach him his history, who he is, his place in the world, how to be. But when they are taken by Darkness, he is left alone & doesnt know who he is. He is literally running scared through his family tree until he is nearly consumed by darkness... and then God reaches out His hand to save him... and his identity is to be God's entertainment/messenger/face on stage.

[austere beacon]

DEMA has fake/artifical light (neon). God has real light (Torchbearer/torches).

I think the death of Tyler's grandparents very DEEPLY affected him.

[lyric dirge]

Oh for sure, I think more centers around it than anyone realizes

[earnest pelican]

I would just point out that in this case artificial light wasn’t necessarily bad. As long as the lights were on, the situation was good (happy family, safety etc.) but it turned out not to be enough against the darkness because the dog/wolf easily turned it off

[austere beacon]

"Death inspires me like a dog inspires a rabbit"

[raven matrix]

i think it's still that same idea. in terms of twenty one pilots & tyler's way of creating, i think the 'twist' of it being the magician could be an illustration of how everything that went on in the hat (representing tyler's mind, possibly) wasn't reality, and the creator/magician/God pulled him out of that cycle or mentality, whatever it was

[agile palm]

what do we think of the 3 older bunnies that seem to be magicians too...

[raven matrix]

idk my initial thoughts were that the rabbits at the table represented addiction because of the drinking and as they begin drinking, that's when the dog attacks. the protagonist is about to indulge, and the lighting is contrasted like a 'vignette' which is obviously about addiction which made me think it might be another nod to that theme. and then of course he is rescued from that.

or it could just be representative of the people tyler has lost giving him a visceral awareness of death and loss. 'death inspires me like a dog...'

[austere beacon]

As an artist myself, I view this through the lens of creation. God being the ultimate Creator, but as His creations, we too are creators. It is in our divine coding and destiny to be creators like Him, in His image.
So yes, the bunnies would be magicians too, just like the Great Magician.

When I am creating as an artist... I never do it alone. It's always while holding the hand of the Divine. Inspiration rarely comes from within myself.

[agile palm]

I was actually thinking the same thing.

[hidden ivy]

Just tuned in to see everyone else's thoughts and was not disappointed, nice to see you all again.

I agree with a lot of what's been said. The magician was a little confusing, but it makes sense because it was something completely outside himself and the world he knew that saved him.

I also wanted to add, I've always thought the moon in the City Walls mv is supposed to be a representation/reminder of TB/God's presence still being there in the darkest moments of doubt--it's a reflection of the true light in the darkness. And seeing the role the moon played throughout this video, and his salvation literally coming through it, really confirmed that and made it so much more.

[ocean steeple]

The creator of the video said he and Tyler “have different worldviews,” very curious on what that means

[silver crown]

Maybe in terms of religion

[ocean steeple]

Yeah that’s what I’m thinking. The only thing I can hypothesize is that Tyler explained to Tobias how the hand in the moon represented God rescuing him, and that this isn’t what Tobias meant the video to represent. (Given that Tobias’s statement came after speaking with Tyler)

[desert granite]

So if we run with City Walls and Bunny Path are alternate endings, this moon thing is rather relavent in determining how things play out

[desert granite]

Also not a solid statement 👆 but an interesting connection to add validity to our collective interpretation and hope for where Tyler is spiritually

[austere beacon]

“Don’t wanna be the one who has the sun’s blood on his hands, I’ll tell the MOON take this weapon forged in darkness, some see a pen, I see a harpoon”

[raven matrix]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DU6vaBACh1m/?igsh=ejUza2xpcHJ6c3Bj

is.abyah

For me, Drag Path means so much...

I think it's a reminder that death, sin... “the adversary” stalks us all the time. That there are paths that seem impossible to traverse on our own because someone is dragging us back. And that's how it is, we are fragile, weak, and alone we cannot get out of there...

But there is a stronger reminder: the...

Likes

534

Instagram

josh liked this too! :)

[fallow ermine]

I saw it!! The guy who plays Torchbearer liked a reel where Torchbearer is explicitly symbolic for Christ 🙌 thread title validated

[desert granite]

The guy who plays TB- as in Josh liked this post?? 👀

[tulip copper]

Thanks so much for sharing that. That was so perfect

[raven matrix]

yes i said it under the reel link hehe

[raven matrix]

i knew this thread would enjoy it :)

[desert granite]

Oh lol I missed something here 😂

That's actually so cool

[earnest pelican]

Could you provide any source of that quote? I'm so not up to date with what's going on in the clique recently and I'd really like to read the whole thing if there's any interview or something

[desert granite]

Just forwarded two things we've heard from him! The top one is the source of that quote

[earnest pelican]

Thank you!

[earnest pelican]

I’m glad now it’s confirmed that Tyler chose the video on purpose and there was a lot of thought behind it. Because I’ve seen some people speculating that he just used it last minute to give us anything and fuel the hype when the song started trending on social media

Which just doesn’t sound like something Tyler Joseph would do, considering how much attention he pays to every little detail while creating art

[hardy parrot]

Dang… better share to Paladin bird chirps thread 💔

[desert granite]

I forgot that thread existed 🤣

[hardy parrot]

Hehehehehe

[fallow ermine]

Did you guys see Fullofeyes is doing a video on Heathens?

[ocean steeple]

Drag Path live…needs to be injected into my veins

[agile palm]

Off topic for a moment but could someone answer what might come off as an annoying question for me? if they've been to the film yet... A DM would work if it's too much a spoiler to answer here. It sums up to this... Trees, the chant build up being audible and coherent, and my 10 year old who loves this band... We've had our tickets since pre-sale and that escaped me...

[desert granite]

I haven’t seen it but I’m pretty sure I saw a discussion that indicated that part would not be audible. Hopefully someone who saw it already can answer though…

Send this to #pilots-discussion a bunch of people are talking who have seen it

[agile palm]

I was actually scrolling through Threads when you responded earlier… it randomly came up and it did answered my question. It isn’t even remotely audible in there. Thanks for replying though. I wasn’t sure which board to ask to be honest because, I don’t think I have ever posted any place except for theories and music creation. 🤦‍♂️

[tame gorge]

||was told no, but i’ll confirm once i watch it. plus they would prolly have to bump ratings for repeated usage so it makes sense it would be cut out||

[tulip copper]

You couldn't hear it at all. I was concerned too with my kids there but it wasn't audible

[agile palm]

Thanks everyone, I wish my 15 Year old and 17 year old would have come, they would have loved it.

[agile palm]

Wait, what? That is awesome!

[austere beacon]

Kids loved the movie 🎥

[tulip copper]

Yay!
My daughters were doing the hand shake when Tyler and Josh did it on screen. 😁 It was a very fun experience.

[austere beacon]

This is REALLY cool! I've always interpreted it the other way around, where the trees/nature is where he would connect with God. Same with "sky." So he'd be talking to the sky, to the trees, out in nature, trying to hear God, and often feeling like maybe he wasn't hearing Him.

And then, of course, the more commonly accepted interpretation, i think, being that the trees are his fans/community/frens.

[tame gorge]

“empty sky no way that’s me cause one half my hearts asleep”

[desert granite]

“There faith, and there’s sleep”

[fallow ermine]

My understanding was that he goes out into nature, where nobody is around, to try and "be alone" with God and have some experience that will convince him God is really there, with no distractions, no worrying about what other people think. But also being alone and trying to figure out if God is there, instead of being around people and admitting that you even think about God (let alone doubt Him) is cowardly. But that's where he goes to try and wrestle it out. Which is also part of what I think Vignette is addressing: addiction to doubt. "Fresh off a binger in the woods / testing what is real, what is good" And his other song about doubt? The only one that mentions addiction? "Addict with a Pen." So my understanding was, Trees was always Tyler, intentionally getting alone out in the trees, trying to figure this "are You really there, and if You're there, are You really who You say You are—are You there for me?" Not that getting alone out in the trees to wrestle something out, just between you and God, is bad—Jesus Himself "got away from the crowds" to pray all the time. Usually around trees. But it's why you're getting out there, alone, and what you're doing about God when you're NOT alone, that seems to be what he's wrestling with.

Sorry, long word vomit. But I loved the Fullofeyes interpretation, even if I'd never taken it that way. But I might have interpretation bias—I did that when I was 10, I went out in the backyard woods and walked around asking God if He was real and why couldn't I feel Him, it seemed like everybody else was talking like He was real in a way He didn't seem to me, etc.

[desert granite]

I do think this is the intended meaning and its so beautiful that it is their closing song and still means so much to Tyler.
-# As much value as there can be in the intentional ambiguity Tyler almost always leaves, sometimes I wish he'd just come out and say "hey this is what this means to me and what I meant when I originally wrote it" but it doesn't look like he's really gonna do that much 😂

[ionic token]

I’ve always thought of Trees as going both directions in the garden of Eden.

In the first verse it’s from people hiding in the garden as they experience spiritual death and half heartedly hope to be reconciled and say hello, and the second verse is God’s perspective about searching the garden for Adam and Eve, Jesus’s death, and the full send hello.

I don’t think it works perfectly because the standing cowardly line applies only to us and seems to be coming from the speaker. But stretching, I can fit it to the words. It is especially meaningful that way for me

[burnt yacht]

yes. i honestly thought of it like this after reading this reddit thread because i was confused if clancy was dead/gone or not after being smeared by nico
the reddit response that stood out the most to me was something along the lines of “dema is a metaphor for tyler’s sinful thoughts/burdens” and the more i looked into it the more i agreed
i’ve been studying bible and analyzing each verse i read along with the twenty one pilots lore and up until throughout the clancy era you can make some good correlations/comparasions to eachother when it comes to the challenges that clancy faces
in paladin strait (the ending to their album clancy) he states that “i’m past the point of no return” meaning that he’s fallen into sin and there’s no way to return. now, like i said; dema is a metaphor for tyler’s burdens/clancy’s burdens. considering this fact; i interpret it as he’s fallen into this deep state of sin that he cannot escape since he’s too lost in it, therefore he gets smeared by nico. another thing to keep in mind that you have to look back on is that nico=blurryface, nico=clancy, clancy=nico (a part that also stood out to me in that reddit thread, im not sure if someone has stated this already) so all of this was basically a trial of being deceived, and he fails the trial that torchbearer (God, metaphorically) helped him on
when he gets smeared, nico sinks his fingers into his neck and now has ownership over him
now i think this is a metaphor that his flesh has become sinful (romans 7:18 & proverbs 17:22)
the second verse’s message is that a joyful spirit is medicine, and a bad spirit is rotting the bones/dries the bones
by the “smearing” of clancy, nico’s bad spirit has swallowed clancy whole and has corrupted his flesh and rotted his bones, as it says.
now if we look at the ENTIRE song, we know that paladin strait is about trying to defeat dema
“i can’t be alone, guess i never told you so” philippians 4:13 “i can do all things through which Christ strengthens me”

torchbearer/banditos is basically his strength for this entire challenge he’s going through in the song (defeating dema), while the rest of the song is just description of the journey towards the place one verse sticks out
“here’s my chance, time to take it”
clancy refers to the trial (defeating dema) that he’s been preparing for; trying to resist the bad (nico) and doing the right thing around the situation.
then the ending is obvious, he gets smeared (like i said) then he’s nova bishop
now i think he will succeed again, and why is this?
from a biblical perspective, this is very similar to God’s promised land and the ‘cycle’ they go through many times in the Old Testament (worshipping false idols, sin, finding God then falling back to sin)
currently, we’re witnessing the process of clancy being stuck in sin and until a new album comes back, he either
a. stays in sin
b. finds God (escapes dema and makes truce with torchbearer)

which explains that torchbearer is metaphorically God, and thus it’s a cycle

i’m late to this thread but oh well😭

[tame gorge]

thank you for reminding me how absolutely gas paladin strait is 🙏🙏🙏

their best closing song hands down other than drag path (redecorate is close)

[burnt yacht]

your welcome!! it is indeed a beautiful ending to clancy

[austere beacon]

I’ve got some footage of me figuring out lore during a livestream (since I’m a music reactor/streamer).

one of my theories was that Blurryface/nico IS Clancy/tyler… the dark parts of himself. The 9 circles (niners) line up to the 9 circles of hell in Dante’s Inferno.

I’ve always taken Trees to be Tyler trying to talk to God out in the forest/nature. And being able to say things in a song he wouldn’t be allowed to say otherwise… like calling God “cowardly” during the times Tyler wanted to hear him speak & God wouldnt tell him the answer outright. That would be a very mortal, human thing to think/feel… frustration that God isn’t answering you. So you get angry & call him cowardly for being silent while you’re suffering.
But still loving Him & wanting to talk to Him.
Though it could definitely be talking about Tyler himself, standing there cowardly trying to ask God things.

“I can feel your breath” (breath of life)
“I can feel your death” (the Atonement/redemption/His love)
“I want to know you, I want to see” (he wants to understand God’s ways)
“I want to say hello” (he wants to actually talk to him, to connect with him)

[burnt yacht]

yes!!
i’ve also noticed in ode to sleep that he says “i will set my soul on fire” referencing his passion for God

[tulip copper]

This is a poem by Malcolm Guite - I was reading it today in a lenten poetry book that he wrote. It's called First Steps, Brancaster and he wrote it after his first walk after he broke his leg. A lot of the imagery reminded me of TØP lyrics and I wanted to share.

This is the day to leave the dark behind you
Take the adventure, step beyond the hearth,
Shake off at last the shackles that confined you,
And find the courage for the forward path.
You yearned for freedom through the long night watches,
The day has come and you are free to choose,
Now is your time and season.
Companioned still by your familiar crutches,
And leaning on the props you hope to lose,
You step outside and widen your horizon.

After the dimly burning wick of winter
That seemed to dull and darken everything
The April sun shines clear beyond your shelter
And clean as sight itself. The reed-birds sing,
As heaven reaches down to touch the earth
And circle her, revealing everywhere
A lovely, longed-for blue.
Breathe deep and be renewed by every breath,
Kinned to the keen east wind and cleansing air,
As though the blue itself were blowing through you.

You keep the coastal path where edge meets edge,
The sea and salt marsh touching in North Norfolk,
Reed cutters cuttings, patterned in the sedge,
Open and ease the way that you will walk,
Unbroken reeds still wave their feathered fronds
Through which you glimpse the long line of the sea
And hear its healing voice.
Tentative steps begin to break your bonds,
You push on through the pain that sets you free,
Towards the day when broken bones rejoice

[burnt yacht]

this kinda reminds me of the road not taken by robert frost which is also similar to tøp lore too

[tulip copper]

I love that! I often think of that poem

[burnt yacht]

me too!! i loved analyzing it and it has a symbolic message to it too

[burnt yacht]

in this case, if each bishop was each layer of hell in dante’s inferno, which one would be which?

i would assume nico would be the 9th layer

[burnt yacht]

i also thought that it would make sense that he would be in treachery since we didn’t get nico/blurryface until 2015, so before the lore nico had to be good until tyler recognized sin FULLY; making a line between good and bad in his heart, the same way lucifer/satan became a fallen angel
i think as well that nico can be frank from donnie darko in some instances, in this context ||nico is the one telling tyler bad things to do and then he gets away with it ||

[austere beacon]

I did a whole Ode to SLeep lyric analysis video, i love that song lol. "set my soul on fire" i think is also a subtle Switchfoot reference ("On Fire")

[austere beacon]

The song/bishop attached to each circle, based on the patterns. Though I do think, if i'm remembering correctly, that 2 of them were switched around. It's been ages since I went through it, I'd have to dig my notes & footage back up to jog my memory.

[burnt yacht]

maybe the two were switched due to corruption

it’s like how sodom and gomorrah were almost equally as wicked, but i think one had to be more sinful

if that was the case

[fallow ermine]

I like all this but it makes me wonder what everyone’s thoughts are on Intentions?

[burnt yacht]

intentions is the mark of a new era since its truce reversed

[tame gorge]

happy easter yall

[lyric dirge]

Happy Easter guys <3

[median spruce]

yep. this is why torchbearer is so important to me

[median spruce]

happy late easter<3

[austere beacon]

If Torch represents God/Christ, then this reaction is appropriate. Because at the end of the day, Torch's power is only as strong as the faith people place in it. What power does Torch's influence have if Clancy doesn't listen to him or believe him?

As long as Clancy, or anyone, is flawed in their faith... there's really no reason for DEMA to worry. It's only if the people wake up & start believing that it becomes a problem.

Torch is not like DEMA. He does not force. He does not coerce.

Thereby... his power lies completely in the faith of those that believe in him and follow him.

This is why Clancy must entertain his FAITH, not entertain his Torch 😉 He must address his soul, because his soul, and any weakness/corruption/sin of it, is what DEMA relies on to keep winning. He can address his soul by turning to and listening to Torch, but Torch can't force that process. Ultimately, the power to overthrow DEMA lies in Clancy committment & faith in listening to Torch, not Torch himself.

[desert granite]

-# (To get theological for a minute 😁 , I think the power lies in Torch but if Clancy rejects that power willingly TB will not force another outcome. He may, however, guide Clancy to accept his help. Sadly this version of Clancy did not accept said help. But it is not as though Clancy would be able to take credit for a victory by the strength of his faith, as we saw what happens when Clancy relies on his own strength to save him. At times he knows this, which is why he asks TB to entertain what little faith he has left)

[austere beacon]

Good point. TB does try to get in the door to help Clancy, but it’s locked. Clancy would have to let him in to help.

[tame gorge]

torch willingly let clancy face nico and then provided the opportunity for him to step in but clancy chose to deal with things his own way

[desert granite]

And I don't think in the end City Walls is a great theological treatise on our relationship with God, but its got plenty on worthwhile parallels, like Narnia but not as great of an ending

[radiant idol]

believers talking about how faith inspired the story? count me in

[fallow ermine]

To say Torchbearer/God/Christ is only as strong as the faith people place in them is a little complicated. It’s like saying oxygen is only as strong as the faith people place in it. You can hold your breath because you somehow came to the conclusion that breathing oxygen is not going to produce life in you—but it’s the LACK of oxygen that is killing you. If Christ/God are real, and that is reality, it is the lack of living in reality that produces death. So in that sense, I guess, yeah, They’re only as strong as your faith—strong to SAVE you. Because He won’t force you into it. You have to choose Him.

WHICH was my take on why the Bishops would find Torchbearer not to be a threat. Because he doesn’t FORCE anyone to join him. He doesn’t operate by manipulation or brute strength..unlike Vialists, who are doing everything they can throughout culture and propaganda to keep the citizens tightly controlled. The Torchbearer isn’t a threat by THEIR standards because they think the best strategy is to keep people feeling comfortable and surrounded and on-task, inside cement walls. Torchbearer’s strategy is to give them the option to go live in the wild where safety is uncertain and they have to leave everything they ever knew. Why would anyone choose that? (From the Bishop’s perspective.) The Bishops think they won’t. They won’t choose that, and the Torchbearer won’t FORCE them, and they can always RECAPTURE anyone who chooses the Torchbearer, so he’s not much of a threat.

It also makes me think of the line “my shadow tilts its head at me,” from Hometown. The shadow is Blurryface—confused about why Tyler would have faith. Doubt can’t make sense of faith. But even by tilting its head, it is MOVING. Shadows don’t generally move on their own. They can actually only move if the source of Light is moving.

[hardy parrot]

I love these thoughts

[tame gorge]

https://youtu.be/BZR4SLsD__0
oh wow

[tawdry tartan]

hey guys. just wanted to remind you that these forums are a thread to share theories, so we should be keeping it within that lane. we've asked y'all several times to keep it to the topic and it's been ignored multiple times so we are locking the thread.

want to also share that theres nothing wrong with talking about religion in the server, but these threads need to be kept to their original theories and the discussion surrounding that.