#The Force Awakens & Last Jedi are better MOVIES than the Prequels.

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

wind crane
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Yuuup.

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The story is pretty bad in the new movies but I can't really see how they weren't fun. The battle scenes were great, the CGI was, as it should be, breathtaking.

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And as I said, a Star Wars movie can be a bad movie or a bad Star Wars movie.

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This is a stupid comparison but it's pretty much like the new AC games- they ain't the normal Assassin's Creed that you know but they are still pretty fun

winter mantle
mighty coral
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Both aren't great in quality, but the prequels were a result of a singular vision and end goal. Making them more well rounded as a complete package of movies vs the incomplete package of 2/3 of a trilogy.

The Sequels as a whole could barely push the boat out in any major direction without damaging what they wrote in a previous movie, not to mention the fact that none of them can agree on basic things such as the state of the villains.

The prequels told a complete (yet poorly delivered) story within a defined era of star wars. While the Sequels told a messy and confused story within an era of star wars that wishes to dwell within nostalgic iconography.

oak pumiceBOT
winter mantle
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Not in terms of lightsaber choreography, they arent. Prequels rule the saber, and dont tell me a well choregraphed duel isnt important.

mighty coral
winter mantle
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Admittedly, some duels in the Clone Wars series were better.

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In my opinion.

sleek mango
winter mantle
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Scene 38 reimagined struck a good balance for me.

obsidian sphinx
# mighty coral Both aren't great in quality, but the prequels were a result of a singular visio...

this is basically how I see the prequel and sequel trilogy. Both are bad in my opinion, but at least the prequel trilogy TELLS a consistent story and connects it with the original trilogy in a decent way. But like you said, how the story was told, wasn't well done. This is something where lots of fans say the novelization improves upon because its the same trilogy, but better told.

While the sequel are well filmed like you said, but the story and the characters are really bad and how this ties to the rest of the movies wasn't well done

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So while I think both trilogies are bad, I think I prefer the prequel trilogy cause again, it tells a consistent story and ties to the rest of the franchise. Even though I think TFA and TLJ are better and more enjoyable films, in terms of what they did to the franchise, I think they made it worse

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the prequel trilogy at least was sort of improved and fixed with the novelizations of the movies and Clone Wars. I don't know what can be done to solve the Sequel trilogy mistakes with how god awul and all over the place, the stories were

sick canopy
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TFA is pretty good and TLJ is excellent. Of the prequels only TPM is pretty good and the others are okay at best.

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The sequel trilogy is really only soured by the truly abysmal ending

obsidian sphinx
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I don't know. I feel like both TFA and TLJ just suffer at being inconsistent and just making stuff up from time to time

sick canopy
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it does have the worldbuilding thing of making some stuff up that they can then expand in other media. Or I guess star wars has always had that but it's maybe a different kind of that in the sequels

obsidian sphinx
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Ohh here's a new empire, but its called the First Order! How did that appear after RotJ? Don't ask that.
How did Luke Skywalker's lightsaber get found? Don't ask that.
How did the First Order recover so quickly after TFA? Because somehow.
How can they track lightspeeds now? because.
When or why or how did Palpatine planned to clone himself and have children and grand children and create Snoke? Don't ask that

sick canopy
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If TLJ has an issue it's mostly that it's a bit too small scale

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or it felt small scale at least. It's one ship vs one ship. Not the kind of galactic scale that the star warses generally work at

obsidian sphinx
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honestly, my issue with TLJ is that, like TFA, it just tried to play safe

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It just felt like the writer was doing, "Ok, whatver TFA established, im gonna ignore it"

sick canopy
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I feel like TLJ took plenty of chances and left plenty of room for the thing to go in interesting directions.

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the issue is more that tros didn't build on any of the things that tlj set up. Where I feel tlj definitely worked with what was in tfa even if it picked and chose a bit

obsidian sphinx
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like what though?
Like they tease of Rey and Kylo working together, showing that maybe Kylo doesn't want to be another big emperor. BUT NOPE! He's just another emperor

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Rey is a nobody. Cool idea. Was it well done though? No

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Luke Skywalker being those old-not the same hero character. Cool idea again and it worked many times with many characters like Peter Parker, Kratos, etc...Did they do well with Luke? Not really

sick canopy
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TLJ mostly set up those things. It was TROS that failed at all the points you are mentioning

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except the luke bit. But I thought that was very good

obsidian sphinx
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well isn't that kind of funny cause TLJ went against everything that TFA set up?

sick canopy
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not really though

obsidian sphinx
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So its, TFA. And then TLJ just ignores everything TFA established. And then TROS ignores everything TLJ established

sick canopy
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TLJ builds on what is established in TFA

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TROS... I'm sure tros occasionally builds on stuff too

obsidian sphinx
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I don't see it that way

sick canopy
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the kylo - rey stuff is the one throughline that I think works pretty well throughout. Even between TLJ and TROS

obsidian sphinx
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like builds on what? Who's Snoke? Dead. What are they going to do with Kylo? Make him another boring Emperor/villain. How did the First Order get the upper hand after losing in TFA? No idea. Finding Luke in TFA - oh but he wants to do nothing in TLJ

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Who's Rey? now a nobody but still the exact same boring character

sick canopy
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Rey's parentage is one of the payoffs in TLJ. It's a question, a mystery, in TFA that actually gets resolved in TLJ. And with it a certain acceptance that the force is in everyone

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After all. "There's been an awakening" a key line of TFA that is built upon in TLJ

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but then not quite paid off in TROS as it chickens out

obsidian sphinx
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I don't think just giving us an explanation telling us who Rey's parents are, makes it good

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Like ok, yeah, they gave us an explanation to Rey's parents. Was it a good one?

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no not really

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If they wanted to establish that idea that anyone can be a Jedi/hero, Into the Spider-Verse did it 1000x times better with Miles Morales

sick canopy
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No... It's the... symbolic shite. She accepts that the past is not what defines her. Like Kylo's line about killing the past. But she doesn't kill the past, instead she accepts it but does not let it define her. It's like a contrast to Kylo's obsession with his lineage

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it's just really quite beautiful and shit

obsidian sphinx
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Kylo: Kill the past

sick canopy
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and it's the connection between the two and also their difference

obsidian sphinx
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next scene, btw im the new emperor

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cause that makes sense!

sick canopy
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That also is a thing they just skipped paying off later. Because (again fanfiction garbage from me) I feel like the setup is that Kylo is unhinged and him as supreme leader would lead to a lot of dissent within the ranks (we can see this in hux's betrayal, which is beautifully set up in TLJ and paid off, albeit a bit poorly in TROS)

There's even a lovely opening bit in TROS where Kylo is just out there murdering and in my head there was a version of the story where first order elements would have to join forces with resistance elements to fight... Ren's faction (bringing back the knights of ren teased in TFA but not mentioned in TLJ)

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of course none of this happened and they just dropped the ball in TROS. Taking the most boring path instead of an exciting one. But it's not exactly TLJ's and TFA's faults

obsidian sphinx
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ok but its inconsistent for Kylo to say,
"Kill the past, the jedi's, the siths", aka, establish something new...
and then becomes just ANOTHER emperor

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you are not killing the past, you are just repeating it

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and man, what they did to Hux in TLJ

sick canopy
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... that's the point isn't it though... Kylo Ren's obsession with the past actually makes it so he repeats it. He says kill it. But he can't kill it. He can't let go of it. (Unlike Rey who is shown to be able to give up the past)

obsidian sphinx
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they ruined him in that movie

obsidian sphinx
sick canopy
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no... he's hypocritical

obsidian sphinx
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and sort of dumb for not realizing that

sick canopy
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I quite liked Hux's arc. The slow realization that he's way in over his head and that the whole thing might have been a bad idea

obsidian sphinx
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what that could been a bad idea?

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everyone just bullied him

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he went from a commanding leader to everyone's punching bag in TLJ

sick canopy
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A lot of people aspire to one ideal and then actually follow a different one. There's a similar thing in Luke's story in TLJ too. Three different paralell stories of dealing with the past

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man TLJ is such a damn good movie :D

obsidian sphinx
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Im not seeing it

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🤷‍♂️

sick canopy
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imperial commanders have always been punching bags. That's sort of their thing. When they all get choked one after the other in Empire :D

obsidian sphinx
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Oh god and I forgot about the whole Casino section of the movie

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And Rose

sick canopy
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one thing I liked about the sequel... duology is that most of the first order people are young kids. People who wouldn't necessarily remember the time of the empire and that in some ways these are now the guys... rebelling against the republic (like the rebels rebelled against the empire)
A nice touch is also the commander in the beginning of TLJ who is a bit older and who might be a veteran of the empire and his whole attitude to things and how different it is than the kids who are the other officers in the first order

obsidian sphinx
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I feel bad for the actress cause of the role/character she had to play

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Stops Finn from saving the Resistance and says, "We are gonna win by fighting what we love" and kisses him as the First Order shoots a beam and is about to destroy the Resistance/Rebels

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Such a horrible character

sick canopy
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I thought it was a nice new character and don't really know what she did that was so bad

obsidian sphinx
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If Luke hadn't showed up (which again, NONE of the characters knew he was coming), she would have been responsible for the entire resistance losing and the First Order destroying them and taking over the galaxy...
But nah, because plot, Luke shows up at a convenient time.

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Like seriously, you stop Finn from saving the only people left to fight against the First Order?

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What an idiot character

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This is like if Pepper stops Tony from Snapping his fingers in Endgame

sick canopy
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You forget the alternative that finns runs into the cannon and dies and it barely makes a dent :) a perfectly reasonable thing to happen too

obsidian sphinx
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I...highly doubt that would have happened

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That's more like a What If thing

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It's like if that pilot at the end of Independence Day didn't explode the ship when he sacrificed himself

wind crane
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damn this thread is active

sleek mango
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I kind of feel as if a lot of people misunderstood what I was saying though too. What I meant was, the Sequels are better movies in my opinion (Apart from the rise of skywalker), however I wasn't implying they were good STAR WARS films. They are instalments that do not follow a vision, cohesive plan, and TFA was an absolutely terrible set-up that dealt Rian Johnson a bad hand. The filmmaking of the first two sequels, however, is very well put together, and they are good standalone films (Apart from the casino planet from TLJ). The characters are also more interesting in those two films, and Last Jedi reduces Rey's whole Mary Sue character.

The prequels, despite the fact I have more respect for them, and are better instalments to the star wars universe, are f*cking terrible movies, and they get progressively worse in my opinion. Like, the dialogue isn't the only problem. The characters are hard to connect with if you separate the prequel movies from the star wars franchise. They have also aged so... so poorly. The prequels have action so bombastic that it makes your brain melt. I remember hearing things like them using explosions meant for the phantom menace, and implementing them in attack of the clones... how depressing. So much is done behind a dusty computer screen, and it ends up looking like an episode of the clone wars. Revenge of the sith is so disappointing to me, the turn to the dark side is so quick and abrupt. The prequels are so poorly made that I can't even believe their in the same universe as the originals. However, they did very well with the worldbuilding and made a good foundation for an extended universe.

sick canopy
# obsidian sphinx I...highly doubt that would have happened

the rules of stories say that if Finn had gone on with the suicide attack it would have succeeded and if Rose had stopped the suicide attack the attack itself would have failed had he gone through with it.

That way both decisions, should they have happened, were the correct ones. But in our timeline Rose saved Finn which means that Finn's attack would have been useless.

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TFA and TLJ are good star wars movies

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The prequels suffer a bit from... in part it is because there's a lot of stuff to cram into three movies and the time jumps are more massive than in any of the other trilogies. It is a more epic-scale story. More epic even than the original trilogy. It also doesn't help that Lucas should have gotten a co-writer to polish up the stories (like in the original trilogy)

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The prequels are a story that is good in concept. As a tale told by someone in the original trilogy "I was there you know, I saw the attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion"
But the actual attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion were a lot more disappointing than the far away perspective of it was

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I don't know if it makes them more or less Star Wars. I think The Phantom Menace is the most Star Wars of them and the others then lose their grip a bit. But it also upended a lot of the ideas about what star wars might be about (consider the hundreds of light sabers in geonosis in attack of the clones... It's a thing that... the original trilogy people couldn't even imagine possible)

sick canopy
sleek mango
oak pumiceBOT
sick canopy
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And I say that someone who got into star wars when the prequels were already established would think that more than someone who got into star wars before the prequels came out

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like the whole idea of what the star wars universe was, was completely upended when the prequels happened. A bunch of stuff that had been semi-established in books and comics and whatnot was completely scrapped.
Sure, maybe your idea of what is a good star wars instalment is in the upending of years of tradition (I certainly kinda think so. It's a baller move to just not give a shit about ancillary "lore" and even contradict the original trilogy when it is suitable) but there's no doubt that the sequels and disney acquiring it all has created a lot more... "canon policing" if you like so that everything new star wars fits into star wars somewhere

obsidian sphinx
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Characters in movies and TV shows, makes dumb choices. Not everything they always do is perfect

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And Rose's action, was definitely a dumb one

sick canopy
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what about it doesn't make sense

obsidian sphinx
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I explained it

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Not everything a character does is always right or perfect

sick canopy
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no, but in these kinds of stories it usually is

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there was a video game where you were given a choice to trust or not trust a slightly shifty character. If you chose to trust the character in the story the character turned out to be trustworthy in a time of need. If you chose to not trust the character it turned out that he was always going to betray you.

obsidian sphinx
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Not really. We have seen Star Wars characters doing dumb decisions for the sake of it being dumb

sick canopy
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there are differences in import when it comes to decisions

obsidian sphinx
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Not every single action from every Star Wars characters were right or justified

sick canopy
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this is more of an abstract idea anyway

obsidian sphinx
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Wdym?

sick canopy
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I don't know how much clearer I can be than that video game example

sleek mango
# sick canopy like the whole idea of what the star wars universe was, was completely upended w...

Yeah, so I kind of meant they were a more cohesive and thought through instalment to the universe, but I never implied that the prequels were good additions. What I meant was in terms of it's worldbuilding and consistency, that the sequels do not have. It was a mere comparison of the prequels and sequels, I not once said either of them actually offered anything necessary. However, I am sure that the extended universe in books and comics werea lot more engaging before the prequels came out, because now everything is about fucking clones and captain tyrannosaurus rex and ahsssoka and darth maul and general greivency. So yes, I understand what you mean. So much was retconned and contradicted from the richly detailed lore of star wars when the prequels came out.

sick canopy
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well I never cared about extended lore. I tend to think it's all shit. Apparently there were like fifteen clones of luke skywalker at some point. It's all superweird

sleek mango
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well there is an inconceivable amount of lore that I... simply do not have time to read, I need sunlight

sick canopy
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and yeah it wasn't superwell planned out the sequels. But then again the prequels had more production time to go on and as long as we're specifically TFA and TLJ-ing those two held together pretty well all things considered

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they built up to a thing that turned out to be... TROS

sleek mango
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Also the clone wars tv show I mean I heard it gets better but I have been super slow watching it because A- I actually go outside and B- It's just been super f*cking boring & it feels like it is made for kids

sick canopy
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the prequels are more standalone stories anyway. They don't rely on each other much. I think maybe one of the problems with the TFA-TLJ thing is that due to the ending of TFA, TLJ kinda had to start immediately after without a nice time jump

obsidian sphinx
obsidian sphinx
sick canopy
obsidian sphinx
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Cause characters AREN'T perfect

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They can make wrong choices

sleek mango
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I mean yeah, luke wasn't infallible, he was impetuous, hotheaded and impulsive asf

sick canopy
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yeah, but when they make the right ones, they always make the right ones (in all the universes). Similar if someone makes a wrong choice they will always make a wrong choice. It's just a bit of quantum or whatever

oak pumiceBOT
obsidian sphinx
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That still doesn't make their decisions good or smart

sick canopy
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it actually does

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the good and smart decision was saving finn because if she hadn't finn would have died for nothing

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and if she hadn't saved finn it would have been the good and smart decision because if she had they would have lost

obsidian sphinx
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So when Abu from Aladin, touched a diamond when he wasn't, that wasn't the character just being dumb

oak pumiceBOT
obsidian sphinx
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Or in Jurassic World, when they opened up the cage of the Indominus Rex

sick canopy
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that was the character being dumb. AND if he hadn't touched the diamond that would also have been the character being dumb

obsidian sphinx
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....

sick canopy
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it's quite simple really. Just think in terms of narrativium instead of some sort of objective reality that doesn't exist in stories

obsidian sphinx
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So the person in charge of the beach at Jaws, he wasn't being dumb?

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For keeping the beach open

sick canopy
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...

obsidian sphinx
sick canopy
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Because by not touching the diamond he caused the same bad things to happen that could have been stopped if HE HAD ONLY TOUCHED THE DIAMOND

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godsdammit abu, you had one job, touching the diamond and you forgot to do it

obsidian sphinx
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Ok but he didn't know that?

sick canopy
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I feel like I'm saying the same thing over and over. Maybe one day it'll click

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The video game example is the clearest one because that was the one that originally made it click for me

obsidian sphinx
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So the pilot at the Independence Day, you are saying that if someone stopped him from sacrificing himself and saving...basically the planet

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You would say that would make sense?

sick canopy
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it's like when captain america says "we will not sacrifice one person to save everyone else, we will save everyone"

obsidian sphinx
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Cool...

sick canopy
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and then at some other point someone says "I will sacrifice myself to save everyone else"

obsidian sphinx
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Except by stopping that 1 person from sacrificing themselves

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You destroyed the entire planet

sick canopy
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and both are the correct

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no because captain america managed to save everyone

obsidian sphinx
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No...no it isn't.
Either 1 person dies or everyone dies. I wonder what's the smarter option

sick canopy
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no the whole point of this thought exercise in storytelling is that the real choice is between saving everyone and saving everyone except one who sacrifices themselves. And it depends on which one is chosen

obsidian sphinx
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So you would be ok, if the pilot at the end of Independence Day didn't sacrifice himself to save the entire planet

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And be ok with the Aliens destroying Earth cause we shouldn't let 1 person sacrifice himself

sick canopy
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if capam had said in indendence day that "we will not sacrifice one pilot to save the planet, we will save the planet without having to do that" and then the movie would have ended with them saving the planet without having to sacrifice a pilot

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of course that's not the timeline that happened. The one that happened was the one that if we hadn't done the sacrifice the planet would be lost

obsidian sphinx
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Yeah...
That's call dumb

sick canopy
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the cat is both alive and dead

obsidian sphinx
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At that point, why bother pointing out flaws in a movie or characters if every single choice they make is intentional to the story even if it's dumb and horrible

sick canopy
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it's almost like every choice was written by someone...

obsidian sphinx
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Yeaah...

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And maybe they suck at it

sick canopy
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that's always a possibility. There are plenty of stories that are poorly written

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but TLJ is not one of them and neither is TFA

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Even TROS is... competently written

obsidian sphinx
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Or wrote their characters to make shifty or bad decisions

sick canopy
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like I do not... particularly like TROS (despite loving it because I love star wars and thus I also love TROS) but technically all the pieces are there they just aren't the pieces I wish was there

obsidian sphinx
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Or intentionally made them to do dumb decisions

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Just because maybe it was intentional

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Doesn't make them not dumb

sick canopy
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ah you're talking about the other dumb

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not the in-story dumb but "I think it was dumb they did this"-dumb

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yeah I think TROS is full of "I think it was dumb they did this"-dumbness. As are the prequels

obsidian sphinx
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And so was TLJ

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Including Rose's action

sick canopy
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yeah you think it was dumb they had rose's action in there

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not that the action itself was dumb

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we were just talking about different things

obsidian sphinx
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The action itself I also find it dumb

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The idea and her saving Finn's life, it's dumb as a whole

mighty coral
mighty coral
obsidian sphinx
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Cause it fills in what was missing in the prequels

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Yeah the sequel trilogy definitely needed one person in charge of the story

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I was hoping Rian Johnson would return to do the 9th one cause I don't know how he expected anyone to follow up properly after TLJ with what he did

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But nah, he just said, "let someone else deal with it"

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Not even some sort of advice

mighty coral
# sick canopy but TLJ is not one of them and neither is TFA

Sequel's has writing issues such as introducing Leia as a force wielder who sat back and didn't bother to try to use her vast powers to locate her own brother when the galaxy needed him most.
A woman established in the OT to put herself into slavery for the ones she loves, is now sitting back and making her husband take a risky flight to their darkside crazed son alone.

These kind of poor writing moments are all over the 3 movies.
TFA-The movie introduces Han Solo as a scammer on the end of his rope whose now estranged from his family, despite the fact that by the end of the OT he stopped being a scoundrel and became a decorated general for the rebellion and new republic.

TLJ-Presents Rose a woman who deeply loves and cares for the survival of the republic. Having her see her sisters sacrifice to save them as a heroic tradgedy.

Then by the end of the film she decides to doom the republic by stopping Finn from making the same sacrifice to save everyone.

TROS-Brought back the emperor and made force clones cannon. I really don't know what else is needed for evidence of poor writting ability that breaks it's world building and characters.

mighty coral
sick canopy
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I'd say it is better to write a movie without thinking about connecting it to another one

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constantly thinking about the connections is how we get the most recent MCU movies

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I will say the luke han leia stuff in the sequels is sort of interesting. Where luke and han both... regressed after having kylo ren turn to the dark side Leia continued to fight as a general and revolutionary leader

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It is sad that fisher died before the third movie because having the first movie focusing on han, the second on luke it would have been natural for the third to focus on leia. As it is now that bit got sadly short shrifted

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there's probably a very interesting documentary about everything that went poorly with TROS. The question is if we will live to see it :)

obsidian sphinx
sick canopy
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well only the finale failed so it wasn't all bad

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and even the finale had some cool stuff in it

obsidian sphinx
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Lots of people gave up hope after TLJ

sick canopy
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lots of people gave up hope after TPM too

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the only thing uniting star wars fans is complaining about star wars I guess

obsidian sphinx
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That they are not well movies?

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And the reception that these movies got weren't good?

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TLJ pissed off many TFA fans, and TROS pissed off...pretty much everyone

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This is DEFINITELY not a good trilogy

sick canopy
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TLJ was also loved and there are people who think it is the best star wars movie ever made

obsidian sphinx
sick canopy
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at least with tros everyone thought it was a bit shite

obsidian sphinx
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I know TLJ is liked by people

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But...no one can deny that this movie is VERY divided

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With people either liking it ot not liking it and straight up hating it

sick canopy
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the most divided of the star warses. The prequels at least were generally thought to not be good

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I'm one of the people who think TLJ is probably the best star wars movie. But when I rank them I still put the original before it because of nostalgia

obsidian sphinx
sick canopy
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not really, tros is the one that is bad and sours the whole thing. But individually the movies are still alright

obsidian sphinx
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Which even that doesn't hold up well after TLJ and TROS

sick canopy
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I dunno. Rotten tomatoes gives tfa 93% and tlj 91%. Compared to the 52% of tros

winter mantle
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Maz Kanata found Anakin's lightsaber in her travels. Not much more details.

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Palpatine chose a few of his closest officers to establish the First Order in case things went awry. Its took awhile, and is fachist instead of being democratic, as the empire was.

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Since there are hyperspace lanes, destinations depending on the course at moment of departure can be calculated, and thus tracked.

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He planned to have clones when he captured Kaminoans, which was shortly before he destroyed all the Kaminoan Clone Labs. See The bad Batch, season one.

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That should cover the "Don't Ask's"

winter mantle
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i'll always love Revenge of the Sith. Powerful stuff, imo.

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I think Mando and Co are doing what the Clone Wars series is doing, effectively bridging the trilogies with peak Star Wars.

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Nothing, for me, will top Clone Wars, except maybe the upcoming Ahsoka show.

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May the Force be with it.

abstract heath
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I think revenge of the sith is better than the force awakens, but I agree that last jedi is way better than the prequels

obsidian sphinx
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as for Maz Kanata, sorry that's such a lazy way excuse

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"I found this thing!"
"how?"
"Oh just one day out of nowhere which I won't explain ever and won't reveal it to Han or Leia who I already know are Luke's family which it belongs to him"

obsidian sphinx
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no matter what, the Palpatine Clone idea/coming back singlehandly is one of the worst decisions ever in Star Wars

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I don't care if they somehow explain how he came back, its the dumbest and worst idea ever

sick canopy
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I will say this trend that has been going on for a while where everything has to be explained is an annoying one.
A lot of these things aren't important. Like at all.

mighty coral
sick canopy
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In context I was talking about connecting it to a possible future one. Obviously they need to connect to previous ones

mighty coral
sick canopy
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Star Wars fans complain about Star Wars while still paying for more star wars though.

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I remember just how much everyone shat on TPM but most were still there for Clones when it came out :)

obsidian sphinx
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It wasn't until the hype of the prequels went down where they started realizing that, yeah that movie wasn't that good

obsidian sphinx
sick canopy
# obsidian sphinx wasn't TPM well liked at first when it came out?

Hahaha, no.
There was probably more whinging about that movie than TLJ. Except of course that the internet wasn't as big at the time so it wasn't as... Loud? The current culture war was still far into the future. But the vitriol was beyond what TROS got (I feel like with tros people just said it's bad and moved on)

The podracing scene for example got a similar reception to tlj's casino scene ("why is this here, it contributes nothing?") and the endless hate for Jar Jar and young Anakin...

It was a dark time. At least with TLJ the people who hated that was mostly culture war weirdoes

obsidian sphinx
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but even many Star Wars fans also weren't into culture war, didn't like what TLJ did

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But yeah TROS was just so bad that it was like, not worth talking about it

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and its honestly best to just pretend it never happened. But its not easy since its one of the movies and finishes the "skywalker" saga

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which is why I think many Star Wars fans wants future installmenets do to NOTHING with the main characters and simply move on

sick canopy
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Of course the whole Filoni thing is doing its darnest to explain everything in the sequels

winter mantle
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We know for example that the Empire post-Clone Wars started gathering Kaminoan scientists and cloning experts and keeping them for themselves to work on a...secret project. Project Necromancer.

obsidian sphinx
obsidian sphinx
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But it doesn't change the fact that even if they explain how he came back, its still stupid

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if you still watch Episode 7, 8 and 9, it's still going to feel like the whole Palpatine coming back, was a last minute and rushed idea that doesn't fit with the storyline

winter mantle
mighty coral
obsidian sphinx
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It still ruins so many things even if they give us an explanation

winter mantle
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But it gives us better entertainment than the sequels.

sick canopy
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seems like you are sometimes saying "it's bad because they didn't explain this" and then "it's bad because they explained this" and then "it being explained has no bearing on whether or not it was bad"

mighty coral
# sick canopy seems like you are sometimes saying "it's bad because they didn't explain this" ...

I will try to make it clear, so there isn't confusion.

what we were agreeing too is that the shows can explain how Palpatine can come back via Cloning all it likes. Much like how the films will have occasional lines to attempt to bridge certain holes left in their wake.

However Palpatine surviving at all is a situation that damages the world of Star Wars inherently, since no matter what way the writer's say it happened it still establishes that when we see a man fall to his death and blow up into vapour, to then float in the void of space, before crashing down through the atmosphere of a far off planet......we shouldn't believe that means death.

This is a decision that undercuts any attempt at taking death of a force wielding character seriously and now forces audiences to judge weather a character lives or dies permanently based on meta knowledge about the studio/writer's preferences and desires.

There are things the expanded universe would be more than welcome to explain and it may improve issues with the movie experience (Kylo Rens corruption for example) but others such as Snoke/Palpatine clones are writing decisions that even when explained in a big disney+ show or movie will never fix the issues it creates for taking the stakes of future stories seriously.

obsidian sphinx
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^ basically this

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Explaining how he came back doesn't solve the many issues in Star Wars now because Episode 9 brought him back

oak pumiceBOT
winter mantle
obsidian sphinx
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and honestly just creates so many plot holes

winter mantle
obsidian sphinx
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  • What's stopping Palpatine from coming back if the writers just decided for bs reason, he can come back? Seriously, how do we know he's not 100% dead if he somehow survived Episode 6? When they brought him back, it destroys all meaning of the franchise because he can just come back for stupid reasons.
  • Vader's sacrifice was pointless and the prophecy was now pointless.
  • Do the villains/empire have like an unlimited amount of supplies and no matter how many times they get defeated, they will always have the upper hand?
  • Rey's entire character
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I'm fully expecting Rey's movie, the First Order/Empire taking over the galaxy again

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and Palpatine to somehow show up in some way

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because as Lucasfilm showed us, these things are always gonna come back

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god forbid we have a new villain! Or a group of villains that AREN'T the fricken Empire

winter mantle
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All i'm reading is you didnt like the sequels. The rest is explained.

obsidian sphinx
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ohhhh yeah they were explained! In like 10 other tv shows, comic books, novels, video games, etc...

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that makes things better (sarcasm)

winter mantle
obsidian sphinx
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Spider-Man fans didn't need to play the Spider-Man PS4 games, the Spider-Verse comics, the Ultimate Spider-Man comics, etc...
To enjoy and love Into and Across the Spider-Verse

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they told a great story on their own and didn't need to be "saved' by other games, movies, tv shows, novels, etc...

winter mantle
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So some franchises require more involvment.

obsidian sphinx
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Yeah and when a studio is telling their game developers, novels writers, comic book writers, and tv show writers, to create stories that can fix their movies...that tells you something.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with having video games of a franchise or books or games or tv shows about it. It's when all of those, have to somehow fix the issue that a major project caused

winter mantle
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Anyways...sorry for the rant.

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All i know is it makes sense to me, so i dont lose my mind about it. I understand the feeling isnt shared.

obsidian sphinx
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for me its the opposite, none of it makes sense other than "because plot and we can't let go of the popular stuff in past cause of nostalgia"

winter mantle
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Okay.

obsidian sphinx
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if the original trilogy can be enjoyed and fully understood from just watching the 3 movies, while the sequel trilogies requires you to like, watch, play, read like 50 things...

winter mantle
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More of it to love, if you ask me.

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Can be a large undertaking for some, i understand.

obsidian sphinx
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I don't know, I prefer, just 3 straightforward good movies

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over 50 stuff that range from awful, mediocre and sometimes good

winter mantle
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Its allright,man.

sick canopy
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The fact is that all the stuff can be enjoyed without the explainers

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The fact that something is or isn't explained has no bearing on whether it is shite or not. But it's a common thing to fall back on when something is shite "this made no sense. It is not explained properly" when in fact it makes perfect sense and is explained adequately. It is, in fact, just bad (so it makes no sense in the sense that it is bad, not that you can't construct a logic behind it)

obsidian sphinx
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yeah it doesn't seem like it knowing the reception of the sequel trilogy now has

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some franchise, you can get away from being so stupid, dumb, making no sense and contradicting so many things back and forth (looking at you Fast & Furious). But clearly Star Wars didn't get popular because of that

zealous slate
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No, they aren’t.

zealous slate
zealous slate
# mighty coral Both aren't great in quality, but the prequels were a result of a singular visio...

Prequels didn’t deliver a poorly written story, the story was LITERALLY about Anakin Skywalker turning to the dark side, slowly. A small boy founded by couple of Jedi's who I believe trying to find the chosen one to bring balance to the force, a boy who suffered from slavery with his mother. The Jedi free the boy from slavery, but couldn’t save his mother, the whole point of the story with the prequels was Anakin Skywalker, sure it might have some poor dialogue, but the prequels are very underrated to watch, it makes it better than the sequels.

The Force Awakens was the only good sequel movie because it was setting up what it wanted it to be, until The Last Jedi ruined everything, the story became messing & poor, didn’t deliver want it wanted to tell. At first, when TFA came out, thought it was gonna be about Finn, a stormtrooper who experienced the First Order (Dark Side) to realize he has to escape to discover he’s a Jedi to stop the Dark Side. The sequels had potential, yet they ruined it. It’s worse.

zealous slate
mighty coral
# obsidian sphinx Yeah and when a studio is telling their game developers, novels writers, comic b...

None of this talking point is required. Since no amount of external material can fix destroying stakes and realism in a world.

Like I said, taking a world and it's stakes seriously is not something that can be fixed in a couple of comics when the thing damaging it is the standard being set that death and destruction no matter the scale won't have an effect if it gets in the writers way.

Palpatine and Snoke existing in the manner that they do, communicate to the audience that you should never believe the franchise when they tell you about a characters death.
Rey knowing exactly how to ride/pilot any machine she comes across Including boats(despite growing up around levitating machinery and a dessert planet) with expertise. Communicates to the viewers not to believe anything this world tells you about a characters skillset and limitations.
The Final Order having 100s of Deathstar laser equipped Star Destroyers tell views not to believe anything about the state of the galaxy.
People who wish to take Star Wars seriously and grow invested within it's world building, are required to take the franchise with a trucks worth of salt in order to excuse the fact that they must accept that basic story telling elements such as continuity is subject to aggressive and abrupt change.

obsidian sphinx
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there's no point in taking it seriously anymore when almost nothing matters anymore. Characters can come back whenever they want without any explanation, the villains will always have unlimited resources and have the upper hand, etc...

mighty coral
obsidian sphinx
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^^^^^^

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Absolutely agree

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but I guess like what Morpho said, they don't mind that cause it means more Star Wars stuff

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I guess those are many sequel trilogy fans. Fans who just want to see random stuff to be shown on screen that you would see in a Star Wars movie, even if it doesn't make sense.

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basically like this ^ 😆

mighty coral
# zealous slate Prequels didn’t deliver a poorly written story, the story was LITERALLY about An...

So to start, I'm not saying the prequels are a bad story. I'm saying they were poorly told I.e-poor direction of certain actors (mainly the two Anakin's) stilted dialogue lines and some hard to digest world building elements.
As a complete package, the prequels can be seen as great, however it struggled to tell a digestible story to it's audience on the first turn around.

The Force Awakens, was a decent (although lazy) set up for future films but it made odd story telling choices that damage the world building and history of the franchise.
Such as Hans story arc, Anakin's Lightsaber somehow being discovered and the First Order existing with their own Deathstar despite the state of their old faction by the end of OT.
These things now tell people just don't think about it and if they do then it's gonna make enjoying the story hard.

obsidian sphinx
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I HOPED TLJ sort of answered those questions, but I guess not

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I have to buy 10 books and play a bunch of video games

zealous slate
mighty coral
obsidian sphinx
mighty coral
sick canopy
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I ignore all the "plot" things because I think they are all irrelevant. So what if Luke can pilot just about any vehicle without any prior training. Sure it's a bit dumb that Ben Kenobi hid in the desert in full Jedi uniform and no-one got suspicious, but in the end it's not like these kinds of details are what ruins the integrity of Star Wars

mighty coral
# sick canopy I ignore all the "plot" things because I think they are all irrelevant. So what ...

The fact you said this proves you haven't read a word of what we have said. If you read anything at all you would know our points weren't solely resting upon things in the plot not making sense or relying on out of movie continuity.

If you ignore the plot then thats your choice and clearly you can enjoy movies without wanting to follow along with the details. However if that is the case, I would recommend you don't make points about the plot of the movie as the two plot issues you brought up aren't issues. Ben Kenobi stayed in his home and wondered the dessert of a planet that was none republic space, on a planet where it would be rare to see someone who met a Jedi let alone someone who could recognise one.
Episode 4 had already established that Luke could pilot speeders as he used to mess around with similar machines with his friends.

It's fine if you want to just sit and watch something without getting into the weeds of what makes sense and why. However if that's what you want to do, you need to understand that to counter our points you will have to start to pay attention to the story in a way beyond your comfort zone.

sick canopy
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My point is generally that it's as easy to come up with reasonable explanations for all the "holes" in the sequels as you just did for the earlier movies. It's established that Rey can pilot things too in some throwaway line about simulators (the throwaway line about wompa rats in ANH does the same heavy lifting as the line about simulators, but for some reason you think it more reasonable in ANH than in TFA?)

Star Wars has always had a bunch of nonsensical stupid shit if you really get into the weeds of it and most of it you can easily handwave away like you did the nonsense of Luke's piloting skills and Ben's "hiding")

mighty coral
# sick canopy My point is generally that it's as easy to come up with reasonable explanations ...

Once again due to you not reading what has been said previously you are making points that don't apply to what I have said previously.
So to restate. We weren't talking about specfic parts of the plot not working within it's own world. We were saying that making certain creative decisions(with or without explanation) can ruin investment within a story or it's franchise.

Example: Palpatine returning-It doesn't matter if it makes sense or not. The point is that by having him return at all, it now communicates that we as an audience cannot trust watching a man fall to his death, blow up and his fragments drift off in the vast empty world of space. As a real death.

Watching any force wielder die is now trivial as we no longer can tell if this death will stick or rebound.

As you would have understood a while ago. Our point is about how certain decisions these stories make, tell the viewer to stop believing the movie when it tries to tell you something and when that message breaks through it causes viewers to drop investment into the story as it has been reduced to nothing more than a series of Star Wars painted events.

sick canopy
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we've already watched people fall to their deaths so many times in the star wars (Darth Maul, Boba Fett) that Palpatine isn't even extraordinary

mighty coral
# sick canopy we've already watched people fall to their deaths so many times in the star wars...

you actually only read the first portion of my response didn't you.

Do you honestly think that a man getting cut in half and a man getting eaten by a dessert creature are the same as a guy who survived Double the fall of Darth Maul, a moon sized explosion and Space, are in any way the same extreme of survival.
Further more do you really think that bringing up to other characters who were brought back by Disney despite their seemingly certain deaths changes anything about my point?

sick canopy
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It doesn't change the point. Except for the fact that this is always what star wars has been so it doesn't... destroy its credibility or whatever

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Palpy return is actually very easily justified within the text of the original nine movies. It's still dumb as hell but it doesn't not make sense

mighty coral
sick canopy
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you are saying it somehow destroys star wars' credibility that people return from the dead constantly

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and yes it does. But Palpy does not do it on his own

wind crane
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what the hell happened here goddayum

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never saw a discussion go on for this long

sick canopy
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Like a very simple explanation supported by the text of the nine movies (and none of the additional rando material) for Palpy's return is by combining his monologue to Annie about the Siths' search for immortality ("even cheat death") and then the Jedi's version of immortality (Ben becoming a force ghost). It's very easy to see how Palpy found the evil way of becoming a force ghost and then used the dark side of the force to materialize into the physical world.

This explanation makes about as much sense as Ben hiding on Tatooine

mighty coral
# sick canopy Like a very simple explanation supported by the text of the nine movies (and non...

Really even though Palptines story explicitly stated that Plagus couldn't resurrect himself and that force ghosting was a technique only discovered and taught by Qui-Gon, who never met or trained Palpatine.

Your making up how Palpatine survived in order to make the movie make more sense for you, however it certainly isn't supported concretely by the movies. Because the only thing the movies have to explain how he survived is "The Dark Side Is A Pathway To Many Things" and Failed Snoke Clones. Nothing that references him knowing about Force Ghosts or how to become.
All of that aside none of it matters because even if he did know all of these techniques it doesn't change the fact that he didn't just die of old age or get struck with a lightsaber. He Fell farther than anyone could survive, was then vapourised into blue plumes, blown up inside of a mechanical moon, at this stage if there was even a tiny portion of him that somehow still remained it now has to survived space.

The Audience is 100% meant to believe this man is never coming back. For the movie to say that he is alive again, breaks the ability to ever believe what the movie tries to say ever again. Explanation or not, in or out of movie, setting the standard of someone can survive that kind of death ruins peoples trust in what a movie tells them.

sick canopy
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the audience is also 100% meant to believe that Darth Maul and Boba Fett are never coming back so I don't know how this is different

mighty coral
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did they both blow up twice after falling?

sick canopy
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in terms of what the audience are meant to believe yes

mighty coral
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ok so if someone is pushed off a building, we assume they're dead yes?

sick canopy
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if the story is coded that way, but star wars has taught us that unless we see a body we can't really be certain :)

mighty coral
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I'll ask again.
if someone is pushed off a building, we assume they're dead yes?

sick canopy
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not really

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not in stories anyway

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and even in real life plenty of people survive that depending on how tall the building is

mighty coral
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ok that's great. If you witness someone fall off a building and then the building falls on top of them, do you then assume they are dead?

sick canopy
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not if it's in a fast & furious movie

mighty coral
sick canopy
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just share the point you're trying to make instead

mighty coral
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you know what fine we will work with your answer. So you believe even after the building falls they would survive.

sick canopy
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could, not would

mighty coral
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So what if the rubble thats ontop of them then burns to the ground. Do you think they would still survive?

sick canopy
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I feel like the hard part is surviving the fall. Once down they can escape and once the rubble falls and burns down they can be far away by then

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but I already told you to make the point you're trying to make rather than come up with scenarios that may or may not kill people

mighty coral
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Nope not part of the scenario. They have fallen off of the building, you believe they lived. The building then collapses one the person, you say they survive.
The Rubble now burns ontop of them, do they live?

sick canopy
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if there's a sequel they could live

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this is schrödingers fall after all. Before opening the box they are both alive and dead

mighty coral
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So they have survived falling to off a roof, a building and now fire. This person has now been shot in the head and are pronounced dead. Do you believe that?

sick canopy
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they could always have had a double that got shot in the head and put in the casket. It's happened in soap operas

mighty coral
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no it's the exact same person. Do you believe that the person is now officially dead.

sick canopy
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until the sequel comes out and they really want them back. Maybe they'll use necromancy

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it's not like being dead has ever stopped anyone

mighty coral
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so you believe the person survives all of that and you would believe their dead or you wouldn't

sick canopy
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you can go all the way to the heat death of the universe and someone could write a way for a return

mighty coral
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I'm not asking about writing right now. I'm asking what you believe.

sick canopy
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I thought this was about storytelling

mighty coral
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though it would seem you would believe that the gunshot is what would kill them after all you claimed for them to survive.

sick canopy
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I'm sure you are familiar with the trope. Once there's a body

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I'm still not sure where you're going with this or what your point is. I feel like you could have explained your point ages ago rather than come up with more and more outrageous scenarios (to which I have more and more outrageous scenarios)

mighty coral
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so now that we have clarified that you believe the person would survive all of that.

Do you truly think the person that survived the fall is just as believable as the person who survived the entire scenario you played out?

sick canopy
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are you asking if something is more or less believable or something is more or less probable

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rolling a yahtzee on the first roll in yahtzee is believable, but incredibly improbable

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But if someone swears it happened it's no less believable than rolling anything else with those dice

mighty coral
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Are you unable to understand what my question is?

sick canopy
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I'm saying its believability depends on who is saying these things happened

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if I'm reading a wikipedia article on someone who survived all that and another on someone who only survived a fall I would say both are equally believable

mighty coral
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stop trying to escape the question.
You witnessed two people fall off two different buildings. One then had a building fall ontop of them, burn on them and then after surviving all of that they were killed by a gunshot to the head.

I'm am now asking you, with your own logic. Which is more believable to you. The person who survived all that to only then die to gunshot or the person who fell from a building.

sick canopy
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if I witnessed both of these things they are equally believable

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in fact because I witnessed both of these things I would believe in them both even more strongly than if I had read a wikipedia article on them

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(however I would also understand if someone I told these things to "I swear it happened" would have a hard time believing me because these things are so improbable)

mighty coral
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why is it improbable?

sick canopy
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because a bunch of really improbable things have to happen for it all to happen that way. Like rolling a yahtzee on the first roll of the game

mighty coral
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what specifically about the story do you find improbable?

sick canopy
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most of it?

mighty coral
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why is that?

sick canopy
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because that's how probabilities work

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the chance of something happening is always more improbable than the chance of something not happening

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(if multiple things can happen that is)

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it's more improbable to roll a six on a die than to not roll a six

mighty coral
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you gotta have a better reason that. We don't exactly have a probability calculator for this scenario. So if you feel it's unlikely then you must have a reason as to why

sick canopy
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well. I've lived a bunch of years in my life and I've never seen anyone be pushed off a building. So in my experience that's a very improbable thing to happen

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pushed off a tall building I guess. I might have seen someone get pushed off a tiny cottage roof or something

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but I haven't seen that happen even once this year so it's a lot more probable for that not to happen than for it to happen

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sure, your experience might differ. And anecdote is not evidence, but I have a feeling the evidence would also be in my favour

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(but that's just a feeling it's not evidence)

mighty coral
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so the only way you would believe the story of that situation happening is purely based on how frequently you have personally witnessed someone fall off a building, burn, survive, get shot, then die. In that order and nothing else plays a factor in your mind that decides how much you can accept that story as true.

sick canopy
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isn't that how most people work

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I don't know what this has to do with darth maul surviving being cut in two and falling down a shaft though

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It's highly improbable he lived through that, but I saw that dude alive in Solo so I better believe it

golden steeple
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Never seen star wars but this is true because of Oscar isaac

mighty coral
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It has come to my attention that you have either started trying avoid the point to such a degree your willing to look crazy or that your perception of reality is just too far gone, for me to engage with anymore.

For you to believe this, is entirely your choice and I wish you luck venturing through the world. Have a good day, I'm heading off to go meet up with some friends and maybe watch Star Trek. May the Force Be with You

sick canopy
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Mostly I just danced around some random gotcha you were setting up. But I still don't know what the gotcha was supposed to be

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I do wish you had just gotten to your actual point instead of a bunch of rando hypotheticals. Maybe answered your own questions about what you believe and then extrapolated your point from there.

obsidian sphinx
# sick canopy if I'm reading a wikipedia article on someone who survived all that and another ...

I feel like you are ignoring so many things.
But if you seriously think, a guy being on fire and being shot in the head has the same chance of living as a guy who fell...you are clearly lying to yourself or you are just so easily pleased.

Here's the MAJOR difference between bringing back someone like Darth Maul. Simple answer, potential. He's a characters that was killed very early on and could have done a lot more. So when Star Wars announced that he was coming back, fans didn't have so much issues with it because it would be cool to expand his character. And now, because of Clone Wars and Rebels, Darth Maul is easily one of the best Star Wars character.
Bringing back Palpatine, which Zenlock pointed out, is stupid because HOW can he survive being inside of a planet exploding machine in the middle of space. So now, I bet Tarkin is still alive somewhere 😆. BUT! They bring Palpatine back and do what? Oh the same thing that as last time but dumber.
Not only that, but with Maul they actually SHOWED us how he survived and what he's been doing all these years. Palpatine is just, "i'm back b*tches!" and then dies 2 hours later

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you must love the Fast & Furious movies

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Even those movies, just because they have established that a character can come back from the dead, doesn't make it less stupid or less confusing when they repeat bringing dead people back alive

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Fast X is proof of that. They brought back another dead person, and were people/fans like, "ohh no issues with that because as the Fast & Furious movies have shown, dead people can come back!"

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no, they called it stupid and dumb once again

winter mantle
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Whatever. So long a someone finds it fun, they're not gonna complain.

sick canopy
# obsidian sphinx I feel like you are ignoring so many things. But if you seriously think, a guy ...

I explicitly asked if the question was which one is more believable versus which one is more probable. And it wasn't about which one is more likely to happen.

If a thousand people fall off a building a couple will most likely survive the fall. The odds aren't great but I can believe that if enough people fall of a building there will be survivors. Similarly if enough people fall off buildings that then fall on top of them and they then burn down I can believe that someone might survive that.
On top of that if the (now incredibly tiny fraction of) survivors of that then get shot in the head I can also believe that some of those could survive that.

I made countless of examples (with rolling a die being such a simple simile that anyone should understand it) of what I meant. And this is just another one that is exactly the same as rolling a yahtzee on the first roll of the game.

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Now I can much rather get behind the reasoning that Darth Maul came back because he was a cool character that didn't get enough screentime. (incidentally this is also the reason Boba Fett returned)

But claiming that these people returning from the dead somehow diminishes the value of what star wars is (or what the fast and the furious is) that's what I think is silly.

I mean obviously bringing Palpy back was a terribly stupid idea. But the reason it was a terribly stupid idea wasn't that it was impossible in-universe

#

It was more one of plenty of dumb ideas that star wars tend to introduce and then people just have to go with it. (like midichlorians)

mighty coral
# obsidian sphinx I feel like you are ignoring so many things. But if you seriously think, a guy ...

It's crazy right?
My friends and I wound up having a debate on if it's just "easily pleased" as you put it or being so very determined to engage in the conversation dishonestly. That it doesn't matter how ludicrous the person may wind up sounding along the way.

You make a great point that although it was still cheap to bring back Maul and Boba, at least they gave them both story lines to show what they went through and lost upon their "deaths" and what they pushed through to restore themselves.
I think bringing them back is still a bad move for making people trust in what is a real death and what is not.
Like I said it doesn't matter how good the explanation is, the character still avoided something that was clear death and Disney decided to say no that was a lie.

Your looking forward to Tarkins return and I shall be eagerly keeping an ear open for when Count Dooku and General Grievous make their triumphant returns. Maybe if we're lucky the younglings will come back too, potentially the rest of the Jedi after order 66? That would be a marvelous set of resurrections.

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Actually why stop their. I'd like to see alderan return

sly wyvern
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TLDR just looks like @sick canopy trying to explain suspending disbelief to you'll.

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Both trilogies are okay, with one stinker each. Not a huge difference to me.

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I like Clone Wars and Rebels, wasn't triggered by Maul in Solo.

winter mantle
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Its ok. It doesent make sense for Zenlock, i get it. But some of us are fine with it. Alderaan isnt coming back for sure, and neither are Grievous and Dooku.

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Or Tarkin, even less.

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Or the vast majority of the 3000 jedi that were killed by order 66.

sly wyvern
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Snoke clone, Palpy made into a Grievous 2.0?

winter mantle
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Grievous wasnt human.

sly wyvern
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I don't think Snoke was either?

winter mantle
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He wasnt Saleesh, which Grievous was.

sly wyvern
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Is that a requirement, to be put in a mechy suit?

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Why not try a little force sensitive GMO dude, instead?

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I am not a war strategist, but I would ty this, before trusting Kylo with my Empire goals.

sick canopy
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just wait until star wars introduces time travel and suddenly they'll go back and save alderaan

winter mantle
obsidian sphinx
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like jesus christ, HOW many people survived Order 66?

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man, the Empire sucked at their jobs

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like I'm so not suprised anymore when they introduce ANOTHER character that survived Order 66

mighty coral
obsidian sphinx
#

already happened in Rebels somehow...

#

so I'm afraid they are gonna talk more about time travel soon

#

but yeah I understand why you might not be happy with Maul and Fett

winter mantle
#

So what?

obsidian sphinx
#

and then 5 years, 50

#

and then more and more and more

#

cause Disney+Lucasfilm got to milk the original trilogy era and give us Darth Vader somehow

winter mantle
#

I'm confident after the Ahsoka show, we wont have anymore. Still think Luthen is one.

#

Then there's still Heir to the Empire, but i doubt anyone who hasnt been revealed will be added.

obsidian sphinx
#

they'll just make more spinoffs that take place in the OG trilogy

#

and introduce more jedi survivors

winter mantle
#

Then they'll move on to The Acolyte, high republic.

obsidian sphinx
#

but the acolyte takes place at the END of the high republic era and leads to the prequel trilogy era

#

soooo, unless they anounce a NEW show, I don't see that era being explored for long

winter mantle
#

Still 1000 years ago.

obsidian sphinx
#

still, if the show ends in 1 season, then its done with the era

winter mantle
#

Then the next sequels come out, and they dont deal with 66 survivors.

obsidian sphinx
#

focusing on the sequel trilogy era?

#

lame

#

pretty much ended the same as the OG trilogy

#

palpatine's dead, we are to ASSUME that the Empire is destroyed (pretty sure they aren't) and Rey is now the last jedi (that we know of) who's going to build a new Jedi order like Luke...again

winter mantle
#

I get that star wars is becoming lame to you, I do. And its a legit concern. I respect your opinion.

But i'll be sticking around. I hope that's cool with you.

obsidian sphinx
#

that's fine

#

I'm just gonna watch the things that are actually might be interesting

#

So Acolyte, I hope to god Ahsoka doesn't suck and the James Mangold star wars.

#

everything else sounds "meh"

winter mantle
#

I think the number of survivors we've seen isnt out of the realm of reason, seeing as there were at least 10,000 of them alive and all over the galaxy before order 66 was issued, but that's just my opinion.

mighty coral
mighty coral
obsidian sphinx
#

literally haha

#

maybe they'll FINALLY make Rey a solid character by giving her own movie

#

or just do again what the OG and sequel trilogy again cause why bother

#

have Rey fail raising the jedi order, empire comes back again and rules the galaxy, new jedi shows up and replaces Rey, etc...
rinse and repeat till the sun explodes

sly wyvern
#

Ahsoka's not a human, but I'm pretty sure Rey is.

winter mantle
#

Man, only some of em fought vader. Obi-Wan, Cal Kestis, Caleb Dune, Ahsoka Tano.

#

And Reva.

#

Cere Junda.

mighty coral
#

You seem to want to minimalise how many of them survived and faced vader, yet you keep recalling new ones. Almost as if you attempted to deny my claim before you thought about it.

winter mantle
#

Who else fought vader openly that we know of?

#

Among survivor of Order 66.

#

Only these people did. So I want to know more about your "tons of Jedi who were all very publically fighting against the Empire and all fought Vader"

#

7 people, if you also include Ezra Bridger, isnt a ton, its a handful.

#

Its barely a resistance.

mighty coral
winter mantle
#

And they lost.

mighty coral
#

not my point and you should know that

winter mantle
#

What is your point? that 7 jedi survived a genocide?

mighty coral
#

name a story that involves force sensitive survivors of order 66 that doesn't have them openly face the empire, meet Vader and live past both encounters.

winter mantle
#

Knights of the old republic 1 and 2.

mighty coral
#

dude...

winter mantle
#

you asked.

mighty coral
#

re-read my question.

#

you definitley don't understand it

winter mantle
#

oh right.

winter mantle
mighty coral
mighty coral
# winter mantle All of Mandalorian, with Grogu being the survivor.

The Madolorians aren't Jedi and thus aren't targets of Order 66.
As for Grogu, I feel that you should reconsider your stance on this topic, given it took you so long to find a survivor. A survivor who still wound up in direct opposition to the Empire and the inquisition, surviving not just to the end of the OT but seemingly long into the Sequel Trilogy.

winter mantle
#

You said he had to face Vader and survive.

#

He didnt.

#

Anyways, i dont get why Order 66 survivors wouldnt meet Vader. The Emperor wants him and his inquisitor buddies to convert or kill them all.

mighty coral
# winter mantle Anyways, i dont get why Order 66 survivors wouldnt meet Vader. The Emperor wants...

because getting a growing conga line of jedi who survived the purge, makes the idea of them becoming a myth by the time of episode 4 a laughable concept.

In that movie it is stated that all the Jedi had been wiped out with such efficency that Vader was considered the only known member left, in the eyes of the Empire. But thanks to all these extra survivors that line is now a big flaw within the movies as Vader, The Emperor and the Empire at large new For A Fact that sentiment wasn't true and their hunt was far from over.

Thrawn one of their greatest generals was taken down by a Jedi who fought Vader twice. Ashoka Battled him and was never followed up on again. so on and so on.

To repeat so I can remove all possibility I am misunderstood. Each new survivor to be so closely entangled with the Empire and Vader, make dialogue in the movies they are meant to improve actively worse.

oak pumiceBOT
winter mantle
#

Myth hood accomplished.

mighty coral
# winter mantle Myth hood accomplished.

more than 7 and even if it's just 7
They all met and fought the empire.
They all met and fought Vader.
1 faced the emperor face to face, moments before taking away the empires greatest general.

The Empire cannot reduce the Jedi to a myth and celebrate the destruction of the religion, when they know for a fact Anakins Master and Padawan are alive and fighting alongside other Jedi.

Not even counting the Jedi he met who he witnessed training up new Jedi. The empire knows the Jedi are still alive and are actively a threat, they also know baby Yoda escaped the temple and are hunting it as the OT was running.

You may state things in simplistic terms like this, but it doesn't make the criticism go away. If it's not something you care about, then you are free to say so and move on with your day, but if you believe something I'm saying isn't true, then your going to need to start engaging with my points in a less dismissive fashion.

winter mantle
#

I'm just stating what i believe based on the same facts as you. We're both allowed to believe whatever we want.

#

I suppose we should stop trying to discredit each other. Truce?

sly wyvern
#

Grogu's not a Saleesh.

sick canopy
#

the prequels always made the idea that the force was "ancient religion" and the "jedi are all but extinct" a bit silly. Because in the original trilogy one could sort of extrapolate that maybe the jedi had been numerous a long time ago but by the time Vader rose to power the jedi knights were a dying breed and Vader hunting down and killing the remaining jedi on the order of the emperor made a certain kind of sense.

But then the prequels show up and the jedi are this massive police force of the republic and we are faced with some pretty massive problems when it comes to justifying the stuff said in the original trilogy

#

it's actually easier to justify "lots of jedi actually survived the purge" than it is to take the imperial propaganda of "the jedi are all dead" at face value. Because even though most jedi were officers in the clone army and thus led units of clones affected by the order there must have been countless of jedi out there on lone missions (them being one-man armies after all) or on missions with only a few troopers (them being one-man armies would make it so they should be able to beat the troopers easily)
Looking at the jedi of TPM with radicals like Qui-Gon being members it would also be easy to justify factions within the order that opposed the idea that the jedi should be military officers rather than a peacekeeping police force and thus there might be many force-trained people hanging around whose connection to the jedi order and temple is tiny at best that wouldn't in any way have been affected by order 66

#

the jedi being mythic beings though could maybe be justified in the size of the galaxy or something. Compare them to space marines in warhammer 40k. Most people will never see a space marine or have anything to do with one. To them they might as well be mythic beings.
Of course the problem is that star wars has always seemed incredibly tiny. But maybe that's just because of the stories that have been told in it. Tonally star wars is very different from warhammer after all :P

winter mantle
#

I think that despite the fact that there arent alot of Jedi left, we as the audience follow them almost all the time.

sick canopy
#

yeah we follow mostly extraordinary people. That's why Andor was so good because it gave us a look at ordinary people

winter mantle
#

Except when, in movies in general, do you not follow extraordinary people usually.

sly wyvern
#

In conclusion, stories are about heroes.

sick canopy
#

if Terry Pratchett taught me anything it's that heroes are useless for getting things done

winter mantle
#

Terry pratchet arguably had his own schtick going, deconstructive humor.

#

"The Empire cannot reduce the Jedi to a myth and celebrate the destruction of the religion, when they know for a fact Anakins Master and Padawan are alive and fighting alongside other Jedi."

Yes they can. Its called propaganda. Its why people hate Jedi post Clone Wars, the Empire not only celebrated their near-eradication, but also labeled them as traitors. See the final senate scene in Revenge of the Sith.

mighty coral
winter mantle
#

He was wrong,of course.

sick canopy
#

fascist leaders are well-known for having drunk their own kool aid

zealous slate
# mighty coral So to start, I'm not saying the prequels are a bad story. I'm saying they were p...

I disagree, the prequels did a good job with the story and what it wanted to be, it hasn’t struggle, I feel like what struggle was the dialogue. Prequels are seen great because of how underrated it is to explore the “Clone Wars”.

They weren’t poorly told, the whole point of the Prequels was Anakin arc, I feel like what was poor was the romance between Anakin and Padme, more a drama than a Star Wars film.

mighty coral
# winter mantle Tarkin's the only one who declared such a thing.
  1. that is untrue, Vader agreed on it, Palpatine shared the belief and the entire table that Vader spoke too in episode 4 also believed it.

2.even if it was just Tarkin, do you really believe that changes the problem, that one of the most highly trusted members of Vader's crew is mistaken about vital information to the empires reign

mighty coral
winter mantle
#

No story is perfect. Analyze something else and you'll see its true.

#

Meanwhile, we'll just keep feeling however we like about Star Wars. Thank you.

mighty coral
#

if you don't want to have the discussion then I ask why your even in a thread for having this exact conversation dude.

If you want to enjoy Star Wars without any kind of conversation about it's quality then I suggest you make a thread for that.

ebon merlin
#

This thread seems more to be a stream of consciousness rather than a real discussion so I will toss my hat into the ring with point after point.

Much like this thread the sequels seem more focused of the ascetics of Star wars rather than what it is which are very much experimental films centred around a core theme thought out which that theme being shown though the eyes of a specific character to be very much generalising you have the following

Originals - A asymmetrical weaker force combats a evil imperialist empire which harkens back to the Vietnam war with the rebels clearly being inspired by the Vietnamese (Source for this being George himself) on the grand scale but on the personal level how hope can be about change on not only the world but also help change people for the better with space opera ascetics that lay basic ground works for world building

Prequels - On the grand scale it is a story about the fall of Democracy first and foremost and how dictatorship or just authoritarianism in general is such an attractive and alluring it is to even to the most Liberal minded person and how a gradual build up of small changes become a large change overtime. (while I think that many episodes in the clone war do this much better see "The Wrong Jedi" and how the military is now controling both the court system and the policing rather than in earlier episodes where it was primarily a independent police force as well as many Imperial ascetic changes on corasount. but no one can deny this is a key theme of the films and this is told masterfully) with at the time George claimed it harkened for Ronald Regans Police policys and such on the personal level it very much complements this with Ani being a Groomed by Palps thoughtout the films even as a young boy eventually falling for a Princess and in a wish to protect and "secure" her helps create the tyrant he was fighting against (With Anis wish to protect Padma being a clear link to the senate wish to protect there worlds at least originally) with this continuing in the tradition of World Building with it being a Master work in the art Every single Film, Comic, Game and series follows in the prequels footstep in this regard.

Now what do the Sequels provide? what theme is consistent thought the whole trilogy? the Themes often conflict with each other at best and out right contradict eachother at worsed. While I still think that the sequels are worse written and contradict themselves constantly even in the same film in the case of ROS. This issue is the main one for me. With it failing at the key part of what makes the type of films Star wars is the way they are being a Space Opera with Meloncolie and melodramatic stakes and realife and political themes.

Someone mentioned earler in the thread about "not being a better star wars film" but should this not be the very thing we are discussing? Starwars is not a Marvil flick is in a spasific type of film and to ignore that for the sake of Astectic isjust as bad as saying the sequels are bad because "muh politics"

#

TDLR
the original films focus more on the themes of the universe and care not for the ascetics of what it "looks like" where as the sequels primarally focus on ascetics and miss the point

sick canopy
#

TLJ sets up some very strong themes but the last movie only cares about plot

sly wyvern
#

The stack of characters set up in the sequels that don't pay off, is the most disappointing for me.

#

RIP x 2 Captain Phasma

sick canopy
#

Phasma got the Maul treatment :)

sly wyvern
#

Maul 2.0 got a good arc, and that duel with Kenobi. I'm not as sour about that.

#

Unless your head cannon is movie only 😬

sick canopy
#

That took fifteen years or so so maybe in fifteen years Phasma will have a bunch of extra stuff

obsidian sphinx
#

I think what makes Phasma worse is that they had 2 whole movies to do something with her

#

and they wasted it completely

#

Honestly, did she even added anything to the sequel trilogy?

#

Maul at least killed Qui-Gon Jinn. Phasma is just another bad person in the First Order/Empire who pretty much doesn't do anything other than just be an obstacle for the heroes for like 2 minutes

sick canopy
#

not all henchman sidekicks need more than that really. You could also compare her to Boba Fett. They had two movies for that guy too and apart from a cool suit (just like Phasma) he doesn't really do much

mighty coral
sick canopy
#

technically bobby fat did none of that. He just followed them and then called Vader to do the actual work.

sly wyvern
winter mantle
#

If it werent for boba Fett, the whole last act of Empire woulda fallen apart.

obsidian sphinx
oak pumiceBOT
obsidian sphinx
#

Boba did do something

#

Phasma 0, Boba 1, Maul 1.

winter mantle
#

Phasma was just there for Finn to hate.

obsidian sphinx
#

cool, something which any other star wars villain has already accomplished or done

#

and hard to say Finn hates Phasma when most of the time, he's making fun of her

winter mantle
#

Keep movies going for over a century, some patterns are bound to repeat.

#

Its not even a Star Wars Problem.

mighty coral
# obsidian sphinx Boba did do something

Bobba coming in clutch with tracking down Hans ship and catching luke out when he attempted to sneak into cloud city.

I don't think he or Maul are that important a pair of characters in the grand scheme of the movies, but they certainly did something of relevance to the story

obsidian sphinx
#

I absolutely agree with you

sick canopy
#

Though... if Bobby followed Han's ship... but Lando says about the stormtroopers "They arrived just before you did"... That means the stormtroopers would have been there before Han showed up and thus also before Bobby showed up?

#

so to me it sounds like all Bobby did was land in Cloud City and go "oh hai there stomtroopers, can I have Han to give to Jabba please?"

winter mantle
#

Pretty sure he told Vader where Han was headed. How else would the Empire have known?

safe forge
#

HERE WE GO

winter mantle
#

?

safe forge
#

Who made this post

#

First of all

winter mantle
#

@wind crane

safe forge
#

@wind crane Shit taste

#

Actually

#

Not capping

wind crane
#

forgot that I even created this thread

#

well I think all of the Star Wars movies are fun, the last 3 movies as well, but they lack a lot of things(the last 3 movies)

winter mantle
#

hard disagree.

wind crane
#

Episode 3 was better than the last 3 movies

#

but as I said, the prequels are better in terms of being a Star Wars movie

#

I ain't really a big star wars fan so I can't really say much

#

I didn't think that it would create this big of a discussion though

sick canopy
#

it got to talking about other things. But the prequels are generally not particularly good while TFA and TLJ are indeed quite good

winter mantle
#

The sequels have better lightsaber combat, imo. At least this much can be said.

sick canopy
#

the prequels have flashier combat while the sequels make the lightsabers feel dangerous

#

Kylo Ren's flickering blade evokes something very different to Maul's flashy two-blader

wind crane
#

The final fight in revenge of the sith kicks ass though

#

don't think anything can get better than that duel

winter mantle
wind crane
winter mantle
#

Its a choreo, no costumes.

wind crane
#

by the way

#

what did happen here

#

I started this thread but didn't read much of it once it got out of control

sick canopy
#

mostly it was a bunch of back and forth about what is star wars and something about how certain plot elements have "ruined" star wars

wind crane
#

I mean I forgot that I even started this thread

winter mantle
#

Zenlock happened. He hyperanalyses and takes apart everything.

#

Killjoy...

wind crane
#

shit happens

sick canopy
#

analysis is fun enough

wind crane
#

yeah it is

winter mantle
#

Yah, unless it tries to switch you over to their point of view.

sick canopy
#

But I guess it triggered a bit of a pet peeve of mine when people complain about things that in some ways have always been a part of star wars but the fact that they happened this time was bad.
Or... how do I dance around the issue. People bring up certain issues that wouldn't have been issues in the past but... maybe in fact it's something completely different they are actually annoyed about?

winter mantle
#

Either way, even if SW isnt perfectly perfect, i love it to hell, and nobody will take that from me.

sick canopy
#

it's the whole... cinema sins way of watching movies. Complaining about plot holes for movies one doesn't like while ignoring them for movies one likes. That just means that there is in fact something else that is what one doesn't like and it's not... plot holes

#

and it's okay. TROS is not a good movie. I'll still love it because it's star wars. But also it's kinda terrible.

winter mantle
#

Eh. Palpy kinda came back just to get ashed.

sick canopy
#

Yeah it was very dumb

winter mantle
#

The series coming out right now are where Star Wars is currently shining, imo. With a bright future ahead.

sick canopy
#

Andor was amazing. I hope we get more of that shit

winter mantle
#

Yeah it was good. I just wish it was more Star Warsey, i dunno.

sick canopy
#

to me it was all the shit I've always wanted more of in star wars. But yeah, there's still room for the stuff for kids. Since after all Star Wars is for the kids first

winter mantle
#

I find it a bit...condescending that people think that aliens, lightsabers and the Force are for kids.

sick canopy
#

Book of Boba Fett had this weird thing where it was kinda for the kids and then kinda not at all for the kids

#

I think that's part of why it felt a bit off

winter mantle
#

I think Book was fine, imho.

sick canopy
#

I liked it a fair bit too. But it also felt like a bit of a missed opportunity. It could have been a fun show about building a mafia empire but then it sorta devolved into collecting mass effect 3 assets and then fighting a final battle

winter mantle
#

I thought it was a fun collection of western and mafia tropes. The heads of the five families getting killed, the showdown at high noon, etc.

sick canopy
#

if only it had more of that

#

I just like procedure a lot. And Andor had so much procedure that I was in heaven while in Boba Fett things just kinda happened

winter mantle
#

Oh,sure, if you like boardroom meetings and watching a dude get fired, move in with his mom and awkwardly eating Trix every morning...

sick canopy
#

it was similar in this last season of Mando. It always felt it was rushing to things. I think Bad Batch has done things a lot better

#

I do love the boardroom meetings and eating trix

#

But it's also kinda a philosophical thing where I don't like "heroes" very much. I like regular people doing the work :D Another thing Terry Pratchett taught me

winter mantle
#

I dont hate Andor, i just think i'll like stuff like Ahsoka more.

sick canopy
#

yeah, while I am only moderately interested in Ahsoka

winter mantle
#

Ahsoka's my fav character. Damn near the longest surviving Jedi.

sick canopy
#

I was a movies only person for so long that I basically completely missed why Ahsoka is so beloved. I'm still not quite sure I get it :D

winter mantle
#

She got the largest character arc, outliving Anakin Skywalker.

sick canopy
#

I guess I mostly missed the arc because I've mostly forgotten what happens in the original clone wars cartoons

winter mantle
#

She was Anakin's padawan, kind of an immature snippy hothead. She grew disillusionned with the Jedi after they suspected her of a crime she didnt commit, becoming a rogue Jedi working on the side of good, but not as dictated by the Jedi Order.

#

Worked extensively with the Rebels until Ezra bridger, a Force sensitive from Lothar was lost sending Admiral Thrawn to unknown regions. She looked for him well into the Mandalorian season 1.

#

She may find him in Ahsoka, who knows.

#

Met Luke where they spoke extensively about Anakin and the man he was before the mask. This was post Return of the Jedi.

ebon merlin
#

what are they in relation to in regard to modern day pol?

ebon merlin
# sick canopy TLJ sets up some very strong themes but the last movie only cares about plot

mfw you only read the tdlr
read this again but s.l.o.w.l.y

"Now what do the Sequels provide? what theme is consistent thought the whole trilogy? the Themes often conflict with each other at best and out right contradict eachother at worsed. While I still think that the sequels are worse written and contradict themselves constantly even in the same film in the case of ROS. This issue is the main one for me. With it failing at the key part of what makes the type of films Star wars is the way they are being a Space Opera with Meloncolie and melodramatic stakes and realife and political themes. "

mighty coral
# wind crane yeah you are right about that, the combat and action in the sequels were great

the lightsaber fights in the sequels were terrible. Constant battles on flat ground between two combatants that would move back and forth as if on a 2d track.

The most dynamic lightsaber battle they had, was the throne room fight. Which if you pay any attention to the choreography you'll notice plays out more like an interpretive dance than it does any kind of fight.

Not to mention how all of the battles feature little to zero force abilities, despite being fights between the strongest force wielders the movies have ever seen.

sick canopy
# ebon merlin such as?

There's an obvious theme to the first two sequel movies. It sets up a reckoning with the past. A facing of "old heroes" JJ Abrams is perfectly suited for this in TFA. "It's true, all of it" Solo says. And the new generation of heroes meet the old guard and realize that they aren't mythic heroes, they are just people.
It is continued in TLJ with Rey meeting Luke, seeing the human behind the myth. Meanwhile Kylo Ren has a similar obsession with his past heroes. The Vader worship and then the denouncement of all the old ways. Flicking from extreme to extreme, loving and hating the past at the same time while refusing to learn from it.

Some of these threads are in fact continued in TROS, where Kylo Ren's obsession with the past leads him to want to destroy the revived Palpatine. While Rey's more moderate respectfulness of the past wants to honour the legacy of the "skywalkers" (in fact that often derided final scene of her calling herself Skywalker, would in fact be a great capper to the themes set throughout all the three movies. If only the third movie had been more interested in that rather than plot mechanisms and macguffins)

A secondary theme that I was rather fond of that is completely dropped in TROS is the idea in TFA "that there has been an awakening" and that is further explored in TLJ with the idea that using the force should not be for an elite few, but instead the force is for everyone. Luke wanting to end the jedi so that the force can be free and not restricted by dogma as it was in the past. That Rey's heritage is meaningless because she, like all living beings, is of the force.
And that Snoke fights against this. Wanting to contain the power because the dark side always wants it all for themselves.
I think the two themes could have been combined nicely in a third movie, Kylo wanting to destroy it all and Rey being more of a "builder" and it all tying into Rey becoming a (rise of) "skywalker" and Kylo, despite having the heritage, not becoming one

obsidian sphinx
#
  • TFA shows and tells us that the Jedi and Luke are real and are like mythic heroes. TLJ, shows that Luke is just a regular person. But then TLJ ends with Luke being again a mythic hero again. So it just repeated itself. Very smart...
  • TFA shows Kylo Ren trying to get advice and guidance from the past. TLJ, Kylo says let the past dies like the jedi, Sith, emperor, etc... But then ends with Kylo just being another Emperor. So it just repeated itself again. Wow such a smart character...
  • "there has been an awakening" tying to Rey who's revealed to be a nobody in TLJ. But oh, as we have seen from the tv shows and even the end of TLJ, Rey is not the only person who can use the force (broom boy). Sooo, why has the force awakened even though Rey isn't the only force user in the galaxy? Plot!
  • Luke wanting to end the Jedi. I'm sorry saying that alone just annoys me and the fact they went with this idea is god awful. "hmm I tried to murder my own niece, who do I blame? Myself and take responsibility or the Jedi's? NOT ME! Its their fault even though they trained me to save the galaxy and stop Palpatine"
sick canopy
#

you certainly interpret a lot of those things differently from me. The mythic heroes I referred to are all three main players in the original trilogy (with Solo being the first one we meet that doesn't live up to expectations. Leia is probably the most mythic we get, but she was also always the most competent of the bunch :P) and I read the awakening as a general awakening of the force (like broom boy) and not something specifically tied to Rey, who would just be one of loads of people "awakened". Of course TROS just drops that completely (though doesn't contradict it, if other people want to pursue that idea later)

#

and yes, Kylo is a dumb cunt, he's a great character like that

winter mantle
#

Kylo Ren is, to date, the only Dark Side user being tempted by the Light Side of the Force that i've seen.

mighty coral
mighty coral
winter mantle
#

On his own.

#

I meant on his own.

#

Kylo Ren doesent have anyone pulling him back.

#

In TFA. "I can feel it...the pull to the light..."

sick canopy
#

Kylo is so desperate to be bad. He's the edgy poser trying to be badass and failing hard

#

that's one of the funnier bits in TFA when he's this imposing figure and then he removes his helmet in a way not unlike Dark Helmet

obsidian sphinx
#

even for one movie like TLJ its all over the place with what ideas/themes its trying to set up

winter mantle
#

Next trilogy aught to be planned and locked in before filming.

obsidian sphinx
#

ohh yeah they openly admitted that each director and writer were allowed to do whatever they want, and didn't let each other know what they can do or how to follow up their movie

#

So here's hoping they learn this lesson in the next trilogy

ebon merlin
ebon merlin
#

wow really some deep shit there

#

still not addressing my point though

but if you want an example of what I would call a good sequal series in regard to themes that would be Andor

#

in which the themes are consistent thoughtout where as the sequals.... not so much

oak pumiceBOT
ebon merlin
#

pog

winter mantle
sick canopy
#

also no one has ever accused star wars of being deep

ebon merlin
ebon merlin
#

Please if your incapable of reading the very first msg I put pls stop addressing my points

ebon merlin
sick canopy
#

I don't know what you're trying to say

ebon merlin
sick canopy
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oh. Well I disagree there. Star Wars' (intentional) theming is fairly surface level on the whole

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and nothing wrong with that, these are adventure movies intended for a younger audience. It doesn't really gain anything from a deeper thematic layer that it doesn't already have by it's surface level themes

mighty coral
ebon merlin
obsidian sphinx
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I honestly find it funny how soo many people who defended TLJ when it came out were like, "This is Star Wars! It just dumb scifi movies with laser swords and space wizards meant to entertain kids. Not everything needs to be explained. Don't take this franchise so seriously."

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then Rise of Skywalker comes out that's so dumb, nothing but entertainment for kids who want nothing but spectacle and flashy stuff, doesn't take itself so seriously, is so ridiculous, doesn't explain so many things, etc...

obsidian sphinx
sick canopy
sick canopy
ebon merlin
# sick canopy The guerilla fighting in Star Wars being partially inspired by Vietnam is hardly...

At the time you absolutely can say that starwars was first in theaters during the Vietnam War 😆

Once again you have not read what I said so I'll repeat it for you ... again, it's talking about how such a weaker force still fights on despite the odds the theme is hope for change admittedly the first 3 is the weakest in this department but it is very much an important theme of it, once again you are focusing on the astectic "Vietnam war" as opposed to the theme of what it takes to fight in a revolution

sick canopy
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The overarching themes of Star Wars is anti-fascism. The first three movies are about fighting fascism, the prequels are about the rise of fascism and the sequels are about how even when you've beaten fascism you can't be complacent about it

ebon merlin
sick canopy
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I think it would have been less controversial at the time

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But now I realize that you are referring to controversy in the sense that the vietnam comparison caused controversial opinion. While I was only talking about whether that inspiration existed or not (the fact that it is inspired not being controversial. In reference to you saying "vast majority deny the vietnam thing" which suggests that the very obvious fact that the vietnam war had an effect would be controversial. Which I completely and utterly disagree with and I'm sure that in 1977 even fewer people would disagree with that)

So I don't know maybe you should read what you're writing occasionally because you clearly stated that "people deny the vietnam thing" and I said "I don't think so. I haven't seen any evidence of this." (outside of some fringe people maybe, but fringe people don't make a thing controversial)

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tried to edit for clarity, but I'm sure I can still be misunderstood

obsidian sphinx
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My thing is, those who says, "Star Wars is just for kids, don't take it seriously. Its just space wizards with laser swords" is dumb

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Just because something is meant for kids, doesn't mean it should get away with so many stupid things because "ohh its scifi movies for kids".

sick canopy
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Teens are also kids

obsidian sphinx
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Avatar The Last Airbender, Puss in Boots The Last Wish, Dragon Prince, Teen Titans, Legend of Korra, etc...
These are primarily kids shows and movies, and yet, they had very mature topics/themes to go over that adults appreciate and respected. That for me is so much better

sick canopy
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But it's... not really adult themes. I mean... I'm not saying "it's for kids therefore don't take it seriously" in fact when something is for kids you have to take it very seriously. BUT it also needs to keep in mind that it is, in fact, primarily for 9-16 year olds

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and specifically 9-16 year olds of all ages

obsidian sphinx
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but that was the opposite for many TLJ fans who said, "you guys are taking this movie and the franchise too seriously"

sick canopy
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but those guys did take it way too seriously

obsidian sphinx
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I don't think so

sick canopy
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yeah maybe not. A lot of those stupid reactionaries who hated TLJ disliked it not by taking it too seriously. But hated it because they were stupid reactionaries

obsidian sphinx
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Star Wars though is definetly not anymore JUST for kids in my opinion

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like is Andor a kids show?

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not really

sick canopy
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It's not not for kids. I'd say 14+ kids can watch Andor fine. But it might not be that sweet 9-12 demographic

obsidian sphinx
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like it was definitely sort of meant for more adults

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like I guess, GoT fans who want to a watch something in the same level of maturity but in Star Wars

sick canopy
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It is a bit slower paced and political so it depends on the teen, but there's nothing in it that isn't YA

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In fact a lot of the stuff in Andor is very similar to the stuff you find in YA novels

obsidian sphinx
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maybe some stuff but not a lot

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like I don't think people are going to put Andor into the same category as Hunger Games, Maze Runner, Legend, Divergent, etc...

sick canopy
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But if you look at what it's actually about Andor is pretty close to Hunger Games (which is the only one of those I've read, but I've read a handful of other random YA)

obsidian sphinx
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similiarites but still different

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like I've read adult books that had some elements you would see in a YA books

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I still wouldn't call them though YA when its clearly different and meant for a difference audience

sick canopy
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yeah, when I did a bit of a YA binge I came to a kind of conclusion that YA is about "I fought the law and the law won" but also to continue fighting nonetheless and adult stuff is about accepting the status quo :P