serious-discussion

[last oxide]

it is the diagonal of the right triangle, but there are quite a bit of assumptions there right?

[leaden torrent]

i wouldnt consider any particular irrational a "physical thing" tbh

but i think its clear to see that irrationals in general exist

at least, i believe that continua in a real sense exist

(i.e. not just as a mask for discrete stuff)

but i might be wrong there

i do not see the same connection to the complex numbers

[last oxide]

couldnt, from that perspective, you think of the continuum as a "chunk" of a bigger object that is a bit more visible?

like how youd only see "dimensions that are not compactified" in a very very bad analogy Im making

the reason I brought this up is probably more because Im thinking of a projection or an axis than anything else

like
just thinking out loud
but consider like
a "projection" of a larger space where algebraic computations are nice

maybe thats too convenient

[leaden torrent]

anyway im not making the claim that complex numbers DONT "exist" in a real, physical sense

(i am very very tempted to make a umineko reference here)

[last oxide]

just that you dont see them showing up as you bring in the algebra, right?

[leaden torrent]

im just saying that, at least in the models im aware of, the connection feels more like a mathematical abstraction than, say

connecting continuous processes with continuums

or discrete objects with the naturals

if that makes sense

it feels we care about ℂ for some specific algebraic behaviours rather than actually feeling like it emerges naturally

maybe im just physically ignorant tho

and theres a better way to think about this

i am certainly no philosopher

[last oxide]

I dunno
I feel like theyre so tied to summing and multiplying things
that I find them hard not to
a bit like negative numbers

[leaden torrent]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[leaden torrent]

i am taking great efforts to resist the urge

[last oxide]

its really hard to separate truth from functionality when we tlak about these things
if there even is a separation

it feels like certain constructions are more organic than others

like, certainly counting is something very tied to us
but at the same time, itd be really hard to argue that an alternative humanity wouldnt make the negative numbers or the rationals a thing

[leaden torrent]

i will agree here that the complex numbers are a more organic construction

my point is that they feel like a construction explicitly

one that serves a lot of very useful purposes

but not something that DIRECTLY corresponds to anything "manifest in reality" in my eyes

[last oxide]

you mean theyre not a feature of nature, sure

[leaden torrent]

but maybe i just lack perspective

[last oxide]

I find it a bit hard to argue for the continuum in the same sense tho

it also really feels like we are used to it

[leaden torrent]

idk man

"only complete ordered field" is pretty compelling to me

since completeness and order both seem very very real

[last oxide]

I guess you could say
if you see a bunch of things from afar, you get a blend

[leaden torrent]

i guess "field" is the dubious thing there

theres no physical reason we care about "dividing" individual "points" on a continuum

so maybe ℝ is better considered as a metric space here

[last oxide]

true
because then youre a bit forced on the concession that C almost shows up

like hey, lets make the plane a field

[leaden torrent]

yeah perhaps itd be better for me to say

i am convinced continuous metric spaces "exist" in a real sense

and i cannot say the same thing for any particular algebra on those spaces

whether that be ℝ or ℂ

[last oxide]

true

[leaden torrent]

those feel more like abstractions

very very very useful abstractions

[last oxide]

linear thingies are easier to accept

[leaden torrent]

to be clear

i would argue the ONLY natural abstractions

that are anywhere near as applicable

but still

idk

this is beyond my philosophical knowledge at this point

so id rather not say too much without having the vocabulary and context to understand arguments here

[last oxide]

there may be people doing philosophy of math making these things a bit precise ig

I just havent looked into it

[meager sonnet]

QM is very close to just like complex probability theory

if you view it in the proper way

[tawdry mountain]

yes

[sick kite]

As an international student (uk) is it worth trying for some American schools for mathematics, like uc Berkeley for example, or is it just not worth it for undergrad? (I still have 2 years before I start uni, it's just I need to think about schools and admission now, and im in the uk)

[molten viper]

How much harder is advance mathematics compared to early university

Is it just a level up and very much doable if u can understand early university or is it super hard and a lot of people struggle

[surreal sapphire]

what is advanced mathematics?

[molten viper]

Anything on the advanced mathematics section on the channels

[surreal sapphire]

oh

probably 1-2 years difference in a math degree for most channels

[molten viper]

Rn im first year at uni

Think im going to start doing them next yr

Will i be okay ?

[surreal sapphire]

okay for what?

[molten viper]

Like

Getting through

Understanding content

Etc

Doing well in exams

For these topics

If i put in the effort

[surreal sapphire]

i dont know, if you study probably ye

its not like a math degree is the hardest thing ever but you have to put in the work

[molten viper]

Seems pretty hard rn 😭😭

Okay how about this

[surreal sapphire]

what classes are you taking?

[molten viper]

Im from uk so idk if the names will be the same

Eg my algebra 2 mjght be different to what others have

But

Next year

Im taking complex analysis fluid dynamics algebra 3 methods 3

Atleast in the first term/semester

Idk what algebra 3 is here

I think its linear algebra

[surreal sapphire]

well, if you are starting with proof based math then its normal that its hard

you get used to it

[molten viper]

Ive done real analysis

Will i be okay with going onto complex

[surreal sapphire]

ye

[molten viper]

Is there a big jump ?

[surreal sapphire]

many think its easier

[molten viper]

What complex analysis ?

Oh wow

[surreal sapphire]

ye, it behaves a lot nicer

at least in 1 variable

[molten viper]

Hmm i see

How about linear algebrs

Ive done some of it already

But i think ill be doing more next year

[surreal sapphire]

you'll be fine

[molten viper]

Okok

What about probability and statistics

I havent covered them yet at all in uni

Does it really get much harder at uni ?

[surreal sapphire]

many think the first year is hardest

personally i didnt notice any jumps in hardness

[molten viper]

U found yr 3 similiar to yr 1 ?

Or is it that you got better at a similiar rate to how harder things got

[surreal sapphire]

yes

[molten viper]

Oh wow

[surreal sapphire]

thats possible

[molten viper]

Hope thats the case for me

Hey one last question

Idk how it would be for the US

But in uk im doing a 3 yesr degree( 4 if u do a masters) so where would early university cover

Would year 2 also count as early university

[surreal sapphire]

probably not

[molten viper]

I havent really covered pdes number theory or other topics as much as i see being done in thr channels

Althought i may have forgotten a bit of stuff 😅

Actually it could be a mix

[surreal sapphire]

i mean you wont take classes on everything

[molten viper]

True

[pearl mauve]

Who can integrate (secx) dX

For sake of discussion

[tall badge]

the channel is for open ended discussion. is this really that?

[neat lintel]

May chaos take the world 🔥 _ 🔥

[echo fox]

compiled or interpreted programming
which one do you find better

[velvet dagger]

Damnit he said "for discussion" he got us

[cinder vortex]

What is the name for the specific type of vectors that are just some real components describing a position or relative position in space? Just like the typical type of vectors being an x, y, z, etc.

[limber thunder]

I guess you could call them "positive vectors", as in elements of the positive cone in R^3. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordered_vector_space

I don't think it's usual to call them that though

oh nvm relative positions could have negative components too

I don't think there's an usual name since they aren't any special kind of vector, they're just elements of R^3

you could call them "position vector"

[cinder vortex]

Thanks, though I didn't necessarily mean R^3, just on any R^n as opposed to some more abstract types of vector spaces

Real vector spaces?

[limber thunder]

sure, real finite-dimensional vector spaces

[cinder vortex]

Nice, thanks

[shadow hare]

Is it possible to prove the inductive step of a proof by induction with assuming the negation of P(n + 1) and then proving the negation of P(n)? I mean, that's just proving an implication by proving its contrapositive.

[limber thunder]

sure

like you said it's just proof by contrapositive

applied to P(n)=>P(n+1) in particular

[shadow hare]

Cool, thanks. I was trying to prove a proposition by induction and the 'normal' way of proving the inductive step seemed so difficult, yet proving the contrapositive seems to be trivial. Unfortunately it's late at night in here, so I'll write the details of the problem and my hypothetical proof tomorrow.

[distant tapir]

me

[neat lintel]

compiled, you fucking beatnick.

interpreters are so zetta slow.

[echo fox]

chill 😂

[neat lintel]

stop speaking like anime characters online

[neat lintel]

I'm sorry, I'm sorry. . . You're right. . .Lemme just. . hyperventilates

[neat lintel]

Alright I'm sorr- Wait a goddamn minute, aren't you LITERALLY an anime character?

not really

🧢

[echo fox]

Java is so enjoyable

[neat lintel]

!

[coral monolith]

C# is better

[neat lintel]

arthur fist

[sleek wing]

I'm so glad this guy has me blocked

[neat lintel]

I SAW THAT

[echo fox]

I haven't learnt it yet so i can't have an opinion on that, but i am learning C++ and i have to say, java is still more enjoyable than C++; but not as efficient

[neat lintel]

Yo, Elite math people, what do you thiink of this book : https://www.amazon.com/Building-a-Second-Brain/dp/1800812213/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr= ?

[neat lintel]

traitor!

[echo fox]

Traitor alert ⚠️

[coral monolith]

What's the factorial of "traitor"

[neat lintel]

[echo fox]

write traitor in binary then convert to numbers and then the sum of those numbers factorial = factorial of traitor?

or simply

traitor!

[neat lintel]

. . . . .

[coral monolith]

ez

[neat lintel]

I will stack smash you @echo fox

[echo fox]

wdym

[neat lintel]

don't worry about it 👿

[echo fox]

[neat lintel]

[coral monolith]

I have a question unrelated to any exercise or problems
How do I review my algebra?

[neat lintel]

seems pretty related to exercises and problems, since those are a great way to review your algebra

[coral monolith]

mhmm yes
But where do I start?

Lots of people on reddit says that a book is better, or that khan academy is better, or that a professor on youtube is better

And I'm like completely undecided on what resources to use

[sleek wing]

just pick one and use it

using a bad resource is better than not using any

and if this is high school algebra it'll all be pretty similar anyway

[coral monolith]

Mhmm
I was thinking of using a book for the exercises and khan academy for re-learning the concepts

Do I also need to revisit geometry? (I really suck at geometry)
I want to study cs at university and I've read that Euclidean geometry and Analytic geometry are required

[sleek wing]

this sounds like a good plan

and yes you'll need geometry but those weird ass proofs they make you do not really

[limber thunder]

you won't need it for alg but it's a good idea to revisit it for CS

well it depends on what specifically do you want to end up doing with that CS major

[coral monolith]

I don't want to do videogames

That's for sure

[limber thunder]

oh ok then you don't need that much

(if you did, or wanted to do e.g. computer graphics you'd have to be comfortable with vector geometry/linear algebra)

you'll still need it to pass some math courses

linear algebra and vector calculus/calc 3

[coral monolith]

I won't have to do calculus 3

But I will have to do calculus 1 and 2, and linear algebra and geometry

[limber thunder]

yeah it depends a lot on the syllabus of the place where you want to apply; sometimes it appears under different names

[limber thunder]

anyhow this sounds like a good plan if you want to review algebra

and reviewing geometry on the side would be good if you have the time; you can kinda do the same for that

[coral monolith]

I think I will also review trigonometry
I don't remember that much

[limber thunder]

i.e. watching the corresponding Khan sections and finding exercises in books

[coral monolith]

This is what I want to do

[leaden sage]

we could compile a list of exercises from books that map to khan sections

[willow gulch]

this chapter section is so friggin long and so friggin dense

[vestal silo]

saw this on a t shirt. is this not the notation for the time derivative of i? an i with two stacked dots seems stupid

[leaden torrent]

no one would ever denote this like that

[vestal silo]

so they're stacked

[leaden torrent]

no

i would not be used

[vestal silo]

oh ok lol

[leaden torrent]

i is essentially never used as a function in the first place

and if you're taking time derivatives and using \dot notation it DEFINITELY wont be used

because of exactly this issue

[vestal silo]

lol gotcha

[fervent pebble]

we use j instead 🦾

[thorn reef]

to give food to a person is to feed
to give water to a person is to ___

[leaden sage]

wet

[cold needle]

🤔

[livid gulch]

Flammable Math

[ancient flame]

$\dv{\dot\iota}{t}=\ddot\iota$

[fathom swallow]

gmod

[charred mortar]

That looks like a face

Except with no mouth

[ancient flame]

$\ddot\cup$

[fathom swallow]

gmod

[cold needle]

..

[clever lintel]

Is it just me or is algebra the hardest part about calculus

At least from the first 2 calc classes

[charred mortar]

It’s not just you

Once you get the main concepts down most of it is just algebra

[clever lintel]

Yeah that’s how it feels wish I went into these classes with algebra perfected

Feels like the people that fail calc mostly just fail algebra

And not the ideas of calc tbh

[vivid halo]

yup

this is definitely my experience teaching precalc and calc courses

the biggest difficulty is algebra and accuracy

that and people usually have a very hard time with word problems translating written information into mathematical information

[clever lintel]

Hardest class is the one you don’t understand the pre reqs fully

[clever lintel]

Fair

[neat lintel]

..

u

[velvet dagger]

Since people here aren't comfortable with algebra I shall review some. Let G be a group...

[ripe wasp]

topologi

[compact tartan]

\imath

[ancient flame]

ohhhhhh

I didn't know that existed

[neat lintel]

$thonk(x)$

[fathom swallow]

prochemist

[neat lintel]

&\thonk(x)$

$\thonk(x)$

[fathom swallow]

prochemist

[neat lintel]

@leaden torrent you got a sec? I've been ruminating over what you taught me yesterday.

and I have a question.

You mentioned Mathematics is unconcerned with what is "real" , and not the job of pure math to answer questions about reality. But rather : Its job is to answer questions about math.

So, what IS math?

All this time I thought of math as something of an extension of science to explain reality. But now a PHD is telling me that isn't true and now I'm confused.

[deep mango]

That probably depends on who you talk to

Because to me that's what it is

But I also only care about math that is imminently relevant to reality

So idk how someone who cares about "less" real math would feel about this

[neat lintel]

Okay, so question.

Is the "pure math" basically the highest level of math? And the math that is concerned with reality, i.e. relevant to reality a layer of abstraction? Or what is better named : a subset?

(or lowest level if you look at things from a pyramid perspective.)

[neat lintel]

Also, I noticed Spy x Family is on your banner. . . In case you forgot like I did, Fujimoto is back : Chainsawman returned and is uploading chapters again as of yesterday.

Enjoy mate, that chapter was fucking AWESOME.

[sleek wing]

So awesome you posted spoilers

[velvet dagger]

@neat lintel so the thing to understand here is that you can think about math at once epistemologically and at another time as a social endeavor

What does this mean?

Well, if you're trying to understand reality, then you can say that there is a "division of labor" so to speak

[neat lintel]

I follow.

[velvet dagger]

For instance, say in physics, you may wish to understand a spring

In particular, you have a spring that is attached to a wall and to a weight, you pull that weight so the spring is stretched, and then let go and see what happens

After you run through the scientific method, you see that the system obeys Hooke's law

This in particular gives a differential equation, and we know how to solve that differential equation, so we understand the dynamics of the situation

This is a pretty multi step process

The physics part is doing the experiment and framing the results in mathematical language

And then once you have the result, aka the differential equation

Then you can forget that this ever came from physics

So in this way math is unconcerned with the real world: even when analyzing the real world in some capacity, what you're doing only really becomes math once you've phrased it in mathematical language and have reached the point where the reasoning you're engaging in is strictly formal

On a social level, there's a lot you can study, and people make choices based on what they find interesting

This leads to a lot of math that's inspired by science. Even on a looser level, human-performed math is going to be heavily influenced by human experience

Though a lot of times things with very obvious ties to real world problems eventually lead up to problems with less obvious ties that still garner interest

[neat lintel]

I'm screencapping this and gonna read it a few times.

[cyan goblet]

tying this back to division of labor… capitalist society puts the burden of labor on the working class… and so they invest financially with hopes of return… and we can imagine the spring as investment… so then when you pull it that represents investment into workers… but then the spring gors back to equilibrium and the leaders break even… but then they force the spring into a compressed state… signifying 1) pressure on working class… 2) the rich keeping the excess profits in their pockets…

[fast ivy]

[median zinc]

is this some joke on how sjws behave

[tender tulip]

$\text{If we have a semigroup (S,*\cdot), then we can define the subset product semigroup (P(s),\odot) to be:} \
A\odotB = {a\cdotb, a \in A, b \in B } \
\text{But we also have the semigroup (also a monoid) (P(s),\cup), which the product distributes over. Can we define some universal property from this?}$

[fathom swallow]

Mizalign
Compile Error! Click the reaction for more information.
(You may edit your message to recompile.)

[tender tulip]

what

[surreal sapphire]

why are you writing large portions of text inside mathmode

it doesnt linebreak

you also use math commands inside textmode

[tender tulip]

latex pains me

[surreal sapphire]

and undefined commands

maybe you should learn latex

if you want to use it

[tender tulip]

yeah

$\text{If we have a semigroup } (S, \cdot)\text{ then we can define the subset product semigroup } (P(s),\odot) \text{ to be:} \
A \odot B = {a \cdot b, a \in A, b \in B } \
\text{But we also have the semigroup (also a monoid) } (P(s),\cup)\text{, which the product distributes over. Can we define some universal property from this?}$

[fathom swallow]

Mizalign

[surreal sapphire]

you are still enclosing text in mathmode for no reason

[tender tulip]

I mainly write shit out in another platform when I'm on my phone and copy paste it here

[surreal sapphire]

you should enter mathmode for math and just write text as text

and not the other way around

[tender tulip]

Ah, do you enclose it in dollar signs

into segments

[surreal sapphire]

you enter mathmode with $ for math and once you are done, you leave mathmode again with $

and text is just text

Let $(G, \cdot)$ be a group such that...

[fathom swallow]

Lochverstärker

[tender tulip]

ah okie dokie

[surreal sapphire]

you need a very good reason to ever use \text, mostly in displaymode

[tender tulip]

alright

let me redo what I said then

[surreal sapphire]

i mean its fine

idc about the statement/question

but this is/was just horrible latex

[tender tulip]

If we have a semigroup (S,$\cdot$), then we can define a semigroup over the power set of S as such:
(P(s),$\odot$) : A $\odot$ B = {a $\cdot$ b, a $\in$ A, b $\in$ B}

[fathom swallow]

Mizalign
Compile Error! Click the reaction for more information.
(You may edit your message to recompile.)

[tender tulip]

ah

forgot spaces

and whatever

(on mobile lmao)

[surreal sapphire]

😵

variables are math

[tender tulip]

f a i r e n o u g h

[surreal sapphire]

parentheses in this case too

they are part of a tuple

which is math

sets are math, so curly braces usually are as well

[tender tulip]

you use "\{" for em right so they're not parsed as containers

[surreal sapphire]

yeah

there should also be \set{wtv} in texit

[tender tulip]

alright, thanks

[surreal sapphire]

If we have a semigroup $(S,\cdot)$, then we can define a semigroup over the power set of $S$ as such:
$(P(s),\odot)$, with $A \odot B \coloneqq {a \cdot b : a \in A, b \in B}$.

something like that

[tender tulip]

ah

thanks

[fathom swallow]

Lochverstärker

[tender tulip]

This started because I was fucking with semigroups at work and defined something I called a "strict normal subset" which it turns out they form a fucking topology somehow

[surreal sapphire]

(fwiw i dont think this is interesting, its just juggling words)

[tender tulip]

I called it that because idk what else to call it

Actually just googled it

it's related to rings; it's the Zarski Topology apparently

fuck pressed enter to early

Essentially, if $(S, \cdot)$ is a semigroup (denoting the product as per usual), along with the subset product, I said a subset is strictly normal if:

1. $X \subsetneq S$
2. $SXS = X$
3. $X \cap A = X \cap B = \emptyset \Rightarrow AB \cap X = \emptyset$

[fathom swallow]

Mizalign

[tender tulip]

I keep accidentally pressing keys

[alpine kindle]

if $G = (S, \cdot)$ is a monoid then $\mcl{P}(G) = (\mcl{P}(S), \odot)$ is also a monoid with $1_{\mcl{P}(G)} = {1_G}$

[fathom swallow]

ally 🌈

[tender tulip]

There exists a semigroup monomorphism between em that maps each element of S to its singlet

[leaden sage]

@neat lintel won't it depend on what you mean by 'real'? In minecraft you could learn about redstone engineering, and how to make it do various things in that world, and if it's all you know, you might think of that as real. But we know that our reality doesn't have redstone, and all that exists in the game world is computed on a different sort of hardware; someone in the minecraft world may want to know about the 'lowest layer' of what they can see around them, but be off track by studying redstone

[old star]

Suppose we have a random walk in 2D. The probability to go to one of the enclosed fields is 1/8. The random walk takes place in a rectangle m*n with "walls" on the outside. Does the probability of the walking person to be on a specific field converge after and infinit amount of moves? And is it independent of the starting position?

My intuition says yes, but I don't know how to prove/disprove it

[deep mango]

Yes, it converges.

This comes from the law of large numbers

It's easier if you write the box as periodic, so that the guy teleports from one side to the other when he goes through a wall. But if you want them to bounce off instead you can use a trick called "unfolding" to turn it into the periodic case with a box with 2x the dimensions.

[brittle socket]

Hi $\mathbb{ChalkRyc}$

[fathom swallow]

grass

[deep mango]

Hello grass

[brittle socket]

[old star]

Hey

[old star]

Thanks a lot. I'll search it up and try to unserstand. Looking at the problem I got the result that a flat probability distribution (each field has the same probability) would not be stable. Is this correct?

[deep mango]

What do you mean by not stable

There might be weird boundary behavior

[old star]

Like there would be changes in probability after the next move. As the probability of being in a corner or near a wall might decrease.

[deep mango]

Yes

[old star]

OK, thx

[ancient flame]

HI RYC

[viscid hill]

(P & Q) implies P
that seems correct
if I know P and Q are both true then I should know that P is true
but what if (P & Q) is a contradiction?
(P & ~P) implies P?
That doesnt seem like a meaningful deduction.
If someone told me
"If 0 = 1 and 0 != 1 then 0 = 1"
I wouldnt understand
Its not a meaningful statement
It doesnt appear to be a valid deduction

[leaden torrent]

FALSE implies [anything] is always true

but note that this "true" refers to the statement itself

not to the conclusion of the implication

this is called "vacuous truth"

you can conclude anything from a false premise

so the entire statement is considered "true"

[viscid hill]

I don't believe in Principle of Explosion
how do you justify Disjunctive Syllogism in the case of a contradiction?

How do you conclude Q from (P or Q) and ~P?

normally you wouldn't have a contradiction and Disjunctive Syllogism would be correct

but not in this case

[leaden torrent]

"I have a dog OR I have a cat
I do not have a dog
Therefore, I have a cat"

[viscid hill]

I don't have a dog
and
I do have a dog

[leaden torrent]

the reasoning is exactly the same

[viscid hill]

Without law of noncontradiction, isn't that a possibility?

[leaden torrent]

yes

this is why contradictions are avoided in classical logic

you can apply the exact same reasoning to them, and conclude any statement.

so either you need to treat contradictions as "magically different" somehow

which implies your deductive system somehow "knows" what a contradiction is beforehand?

and that's very hard to determine in practice

outside of these simple toy examples

OR you remove these very useful logical reasoning rules

which makes your system a lot less powerful

(not to mention, no longer modelling how we actually think about things)

[viscid hill]

But I'm saying Disjunctive syllogism isn't valid if Law of Non-contradiction fails

i don't mean to say that Law of non-contradiction is wrong

but how do you justify Disjunctive Syllogism if a contradiction is possible?

[leaden torrent]

but my point is that that implies you need to know beforehand whether your premises are contradictory BEFORE you do any reasoning

which effectively makes all logic worthless

since if we knew that already, why would we bother doing logic?

just take your premise and conclusion and check whether they contradict in some model

in any case, that doesnt really matter for your original question

FALSE implies [whatever] is not inherently contradictory

or anything like that

it's just... how we talk about conditions

if i say

"If x is not equal to 0, then x² is positive"

this is an implication statement

(x ≠ 0) → (x² > 0)

[here our universe is the real numbers]

and this statement is true

even if i make the premise false, say by letting x = 0

the statement... is still true

it's now of the form FALSE → FALSE, sure

but the statement itself is true

we only care about cases where the premise is true

we ignore cases where it's false, by just saying it's "true" in those cases

this is "just" a definition, but it's the only definition that makes implies actually work for what we want it to communicate

After all, if I asked you

"Prove that, for any integer x, 'x is prime' implies either x = 2 or x is odd"

your proof would ONLY consider the case where x is prime

the other cases are IRRELEVANT

so the statement NEEDS to be true "by default" in those cases

x = 9 would make this FALSE implies TRUE, and x = 4 would make it FALSE implies FALSE

[viscid hill]

the proof above claims that any statement can be proved from a contradiction
but I claim it's not valid

because it uses Disjunctive syllogism inappropriately

[leaden torrent]

then try and define another system of logical reasoning where you can't conclude anything from a contradiction.

no, it uses disjunctive syllogism completely appropriately

disjunctive syllogism is a prior; it's a rule of inference

you can define a system without it

but you'll quickly realize that it makes life a lot harder

and it makes your system a lot weaker

and your benefit is avoiding counterintuitive results from contradictions, which like... why do you care?

contradictions should ideally be avoided

that is to say, if you get a contradiction, you fucked up

(well, at least a top-level contradiction)

(contradictions WITHIN implications can be useful for formal proofs.)

[viscid hill]

it requires law of non-contradiction to be valid
you don't need think of it as a "rule" of some system
it models our thinking

try to persuade someone that Disjunctive Syllogism is correct to someone who believes contradictions are possible

it won't work

[leaden torrent]

sigh

[viscid hill]

i'll write a dialogue for you
to illustrate my point

[leaden torrent]

if you're going to completely ignore what i'm saying, then just do more math and you'll get it eventually

it's very obvious why this stuff is the way it is once you've done proper mathematics

i challenge you to rephrase this proof of $\forall x(P(x) \rightarrow Q(x)) \lor \exists x P(x)$ without allowing a contradiction to imply anything

[fathom swallow]

Namington

[leaden torrent]

i believe it's possible but it'll be very difficult

but the statement itself is a triviality.

[viscid hill]

A: Disjunctive Syllogism is correct
B: show me the proof please.
A: We affirm P OR Q. And so at least one of them is true.
B: Yes
A: And we know that P is not true
B: Indeed.
A: Therefore Q is true.
B: But now I'm lost. I am a dialetheist and I believe some contradictions are true. How did you know Q is true?
A: Because P is not true.
B: But it doesn't follow that Q is true. Perhaps P is both true and not true.
A: That's not intelligible. Law of Non-contradiction forbids such a thing.
B: But how can you prove Disjunctive Syllogism without Law of Non-contradiction?

[viscid hill]

I agree. I believe Law of Non-contradiction

but why justify everything in terms of formal systems?

[leaden torrent]

A: Disjunctive Syllogism is correct
B: show me the proof please.
the correct answer is "it can't be proven, it's a rule of inference".

well, more accurately

"it proves itself, it's a rule of inference"

[leaden torrent]

because formal systems are ways of modelling logic

[viscid hill]

we don't have to stipulate rules

we can justify them

[leaden torrent]

justify modus ponens for me.

[viscid hill]

If you know the truth of A
and experience the motion from A to B
Then you necessarily experience the truth of B

This is the symbolic form we impose on our thinking

Logic gives us a schema

so we know it's true by virtue of observing our thinking and how it relates to the symbolic form

[leaden torrent]

"you necessarily"? why? what does it mean to "experience"? what is a "motion"?

this argument is not convincing to me; it seems to be based off some subjective physical experiences rather than formal reasoning

[viscid hill]

its subjective. because our subjective intuition is needed to make the symbolic logic intelligible

intuition is prior to formal systems and necessary

[leaden torrent]

so you're saying that modus ponens is a formal rule developed based off of subjective experiences

good, we're on the same page

i could say the same thing about every other rule of inference.

but the point is that they're arbitrary, and you could theoretically make systems without them

look into, say, paraconsistent logic if you're interested to see what mathematical legwork is necessary to make inconsistencies work

without implying everything

[viscid hill]

but subjective experience shows (or at least suggests) that Disjunctive Syllogism is not valid in the presence of a contradiction
which makes the "proof" of Principle of Explosion dubious

[leaden torrent]

paraconsistent logic DOES indeed reject disjunctive syllogism

how do you "subjectively experience" a contradiction?

[viscid hill]

a contradiction is not meaningful
it deadens the movement of thought

this is my subjective experience

[leaden torrent]

??????

i think you fundamentally misunderstand the point of logic

logic is meant to develop rules and then reason about those rules

you can reason that there should be different rules

you could reasonably say that "i think disjunctive syllogism is bad because a more 'accurate' logical system for reasoning about reality ought to permit contradictions without having every statement be true"

that's fine

but it doesn't mean that disjunctive syllogism is invalid in logical systems that accept it

you're proposing that we model reality (or maybe not "reality" but some reasoning system based on subjective experience) with a different formalism

again, that's fine to do, but it's a different question

it's not logic, it's metalogic/philosophy

when we do mathematics, we almost always use the classical system that accepts disjunctive syllogism and avoids contradictions.

[viscid hill]

i'm simply pointing out that the proof fails
Law of Non-contradiction is true
and so Disjunctive Syllogism is also true
but the "proof" considers an unintelligible case where Law of Non-contradiction fails

[leaden torrent]

no, the proof doesnt

[viscid hill]

so the application of DS is inappropriate

[leaden torrent]

disjunctive syllogism is said to hold as a universal

regardless of whether your premises are contradictory or not

it's said to apply to ALL statements

this is a prior of the logical system.

and with that in mind, the proof is correct.

[viscid hill]

it's a bad system

[leaden torrent]

you're free to think that

[viscid hill]

it doesn't model human thought correctly

[leaden torrent]

but then you have to use an alternate system

well, it certainly models my thought correctly

as well as that of most mathematicians

since this system models how mathematical arguments are actually constructed

if you accept contradictions in your system without assuming they can imply anything, you have to, for example, deny the validity of proof by contradiction

that's just a very simple example

you need to make some more fundamental changes to how we construct arguments as well

the classic proof of the infinitude of primes no longer works, obviously

or the irrationality of the square root of 2

[viscid hill]

my subjective thinking has plenty of autonomy
why do we even need formal systems?

[leaden torrent]

that's a philosophical question more than a mathematical one

it, at the very least, helps us communicate with others why we're making the conclusions we are

subjectivity has a lot of room for doubt and ambiguity, at least when we try to communicate our "reasoning" to others

establishing formal systems and working within those resolves that

since it's clear where each step comes from

it comes from the formal system

the formal system may or may not be "inspired by reality" or "by how we actually think" or whatever

fundamentally it's just a collection of rules for structuring an argument.

you don't NEED it, but then you're not arguing from logos anymore

which, again, is fine!

at least if your personal philosophy supports that

but it's not mathematics!

[viscid hill]

alright

[muted totem]

Which is the channel for epsilon-delta proofs?

[leaden torrent]

basic stuff: #calculus or #proofs-and-logic or a help channel
more complicated: #real-complex-analysis

[muted totem]

Thanks

[tender tulip]

constructing R as a completion of Q as a metric space
A metric space depends on a mapping to R

[vivid halo]

There are ways to do this without it being circular

But yeah this is annoying to avoid

[tender tulip]

The thing is, the "image of the metric" is, well, the group of positive rationals under multiplication adjoin 0

you could just, define the endomorphism and go about the general definition of a metric but just adjusting the codomain

The endomorphism in particular is the absolute value which since the rationals strictly greater than 0 form a group, it's an endomorphism

I wonder if the property of the metric space itself depends on the set-theoretic structure and ordering in relation to it's operations which might carry over to just Q, or any ordered field

[neat lintel]

you know

now that you've brought it up

i never realized this

look i just want to avoid dedekind cuts okay

[tall badge]

yeah for example when defining cauchy sequences in Q, we can use rational epsilon>0

once u have R u can show that 'rational' can be replaced by 'real'

[full isle]

What topics in math feel completely disjoint from the algebra/geometry side of things. Im assuming combinatorics, and logic stuff

But there are a lot of topics so Im sure I am just being naive here

[static loom]

actually feeling pretty content with constructing the p-adics as completions of Q now since R is a separate structure, no circularity to avoid 😌

[fierce abyss]

Where were those text-voice channels…?

[leaden torrent]

click this

[fierce abyss]

I see, thanks it works

[azure nymph]

I wouldn't necessarily say combinatorics especially with tropical and algebraic combinatorics then there's also finite geometry, geometric combinatorics, and combinatorial geometry

[austere dragon]

Q can be false…

[neon merlin]

Does anyone know how useful going to aayjs conference is on personal statements or essays

[vestal meadow]

nope

[burnt dune]

what are things that the implication ( local --> global ) does not work for?

real functions?

idk cauchy integral formula and like holomorphic functions in general seem kinda sus

[ancient flame]

so uh im not gonna have a sink in my dorm, so how tf am I gonna get drinking water? am I just gonna have to buy a shit ton of bottled water??

[sleek wing]

WTF LOL

surely there'll be one in the bathroom

[ancient flame]

the bathroom that I don't have

communal bathrooms for the floor!

[sleek wing]

so your dorms don't have bathrooms

ok then go to those for water

[ancient flame]

are those fine to drink from??

[sleek wing]

I can tell you're not a student yet if you're asking questions like that

[ancient flame]

oh

I've never drunk water from public bathrooms

[sleek wing]

go buy bottled water if you want but it'll be more expensive

the no sink thing is stupid though

[ancient flame]

yeah I was thinking it would be unnecessarily expensive so idk

[ancient flame]

yeah it is

we even have communal kitchens

[static loom]

I'd be more annoyed by having to brush my teeth in the public restroom lol

[ancient flame]

yeah im gonna have to deal with that shit

this is gonna be a rude awakening for me

[sleek wing]

first year is always a drop in living conditions lol

[ancient flame]

I live fairly comfortably here at home but thats gonna change dramatically

yeah

[sleek wing]

2nd year sometimes is as well

[ancient flame]

f

[fair hazel]

Hey all, new here, anyone studying discrete math?
find it difficult to study alone

[iron osprey]

presheaves

[burnt dune]

idk what are those 😦

algebraic goemetry stuff

mind explaining them?"

[iron osprey]

not algebraic geometry

@burnt dune start here http://mathcenter.spb.ru/nikaan/2019/topology/4.pdf

[iron osprey]

what uni

also

why are you drinking tap water LOL

[burnt dune]

read that before

i read the point-set parts only

[ancient flame]

UF @iron osprey

it was one of the cheapest dorms

I knew what I was getting myself into but whatever

im gonna be a freshman this fall

[iron osprey]

he has another book u can read

Elements of Algebraic Topology

[sleek wing]

oh god you're one of THOSE

[iron osprey]

(sorry. i hate hatcher.)

[iron osprey]

yea if i come to ur pad i need a filtered bottle sorry

[sleek wing]

upper class bastard get out of my house

[ancient flame]

I guess I could being a filter to the bathroom

scoop out the toilet water

jk

[surreal sapphire]

in germany tap water has higher quality standards than bottled water

[ancient flame]

lucky you

[sleek wing]

that is not the case here

[surreal sapphire]

have you tried living in a country that cares about quality of water?

but ye, i would try a water filter

[ancient flame]

smh loch

[sleek wing]

up norf it's basically bottled water but down souf it's RANK

[surreal sapphire]

oh wait you said no sink lol

how is this even legal

[ancient flame]

no clue

[surreal sapphire]

is there no shared space somewhere with a sink

[burnt dune]

i hate hatcher too

[ancient flame]

yes

there is

communal bathroom

for the floor

just not in my room

[sleek wing]

average london resident drinking tap water
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTvL4r_S2Po

[surreal sapphire]

cant you just fill a bottle there

wew wtf

[ancient flame]

I guess

[sleek wing]

what

[ancient flame]

just got this amazing email

[neat lintel]

I understood why positive * negative = negative, and why negative * negative = positive

I feel good, not great, but good lol

[burnt dune]

i dont

[neat lintel]

A small step in the right direction

[ancient flame]

think of the number line

and then think of -1 as flipping to the other side so that you are the same distance away from 0

so 5*(-6)=5*6*(-1)

[sleek wing]

a+(-a) = 0
a(-b)+(-a)(-b) = 0
-ab+(-a)(-b) = 0
=> ab = (-a)(-b)

[ancient flame]

and then you just flip across

[iron osprey]

gmod are you in boston

[ancient flame]

this is the formal approach

no

[iron osprey]

ah

[ancient flame]

im in florida

[iron osprey]

fsu?

[sleek wing]

hahyahahahhahahah

[iron osprey]

f poly?

[ancient flame]

uf

[iron osprey]

o

i got a bud starting at f poly in spring

[ancient flame]

nice nice

[heady ermine]

Interesting water conversation

[heady ermine]

Wait what now

[ancient flame]

LOL

[sleek wing]

if you refuse to drink tap water GET OUT MY HOUSE

I don't want TORIES (gmod) in my house

[heady ermine]

Wait what is upper class?

Drinking from tap or not drinking from tap

[sleek wing]

which one seems like something an upper class person wouldn't do

[heady ermine]

I have absolutely no idea

[ancient flame]

LOL

listen wew

[sleek wing]

👂

[ancient flame]

LOL

tap water isn't the best quality water

but I guess I'll filter it and it'll be fine

[heady ermine]

Is it not drinking from it because you're being picky or drinking from it because it implies your tap water is that safe to drink?

[sleek wing]

tyr

[ancient flame]

what

[sleek wing]

an interesting quandary yess quite

I'd go with not drinking

tap water tends to be region based rather than "house price" based

[heady ermine]

I see

[brave hollow]

I have a bottled water factory set up in my backyard and whenever you use the tap some1 manually pours bottled water from the other side

[bright hill]

I just realized

Manan.'s real name isn't Manan.

that's a nickname

their real name is Manan

[summer sandal]

Me struggling to see the difference.

[deep mango]

Are you ok

[brave hollow]

who is exotic enough to include a full stop in their name?

[summer sandal]

Half of my full name is included.

[bright hill]

ye

why

[summer sandal]

I guess it’s bad to use real name online?

[bright hill]

of course

irl names are big cringe

[summer sandal]

But there a billion benjr so it’s ok, I am not dumb enough to include last names.

[bright hill]

oh yeah

that can also be a concern

[summer sandal]

How?

Which part?

[bright hill]

doxing yourself?

lol

[summer sandal]

I don’t know what that means.

[bright hill]

oh

uh

[summer sandal]

Hold on a sec why I look it up.

Oh I see.

[bright hill]

it just means private info gets released publically

[summer sandal]

Yeah.

[bright hill]

which is a concern for some people

tbh I just think irl names aren't that cool

[summer sandal]

I couldn’t think of any other name lol

[sleek wing]

I would never tell anyone online that my real name is Bartholomew Geraldine IV

[summer sandal]

Ok Bart.

[sleek wing]

WTF

modddssssss

[ancient flame]

MOOOOOODS

[bright hill]

you're real name can never be that cool

it's probably something lame like jeff or smth

[sleek wing]

firstly it would be spelt geoff, i.e. correctly

secondly I am not called jeff, Jeffery, or any other assorted jeff based schisms

[summer sandal]

Kyle?

I have the coolest name, Benedict.

[neat lintel]

What are you, some kind of gamer?

[bright hill]

gamer is derogatory now?

lmao?

[sleek wing]

my full name is actually elizabeth alexandra mary windsor II

[iron osprey]

🐲

[bright hill]

lel

[sleek wing]

Carter? I arldy knew 'er!

[summer sandal]

Carter 5

[iron osprey]

Mach 1

[neat lintel]

. . . . .I wanna know how you got to that sentence from me typing that. . . . .

And if your answer doesn't please me, this puppy gets it.

[iron osprey]

true gamer moment

[neat lintel]

Oh yeah? Well, you're a hyperbolic paraboloid.

[arctic grove]

say that about ur name

my name is great

[bright hill]

my name is indeed big cringe

maybe even bigger cringe than most

but hands down, all irl names are cring

no exceptions

period.

[arctic grove]

mine isnt a name

it will be a title in the near future

just you wait

just you wait

[heady ermine]

Hmmm

Someone help me think of a username

[sleek wing]

I think "Raghuram" is a pretty good username

[arctic grove]

true

[summer sandal]

Yes sister period

It’s always funny when I see people say or write that.

[sleek wing]

Full stop

[bright hill]

what makes you think I'm a girl?

[summer sandal]

Not assuming, just what comes with the saying “period”.

[bright hill]

I don't get it

[sleek wing]

Yeah you wouldn’t

Not a James Charles head

[bright hill]

[honest veldt]

periodt.

[lunar spear]

your bio

she/shim

[odd narwhal]

Terminally online teenage brainrot

[bright hill]

I might be a teenager

and I am most definitely terminally online

[bright hill]

but you can NOT prove me wrong on this

[deep mango]

Irl names are definitely not cringe

Some of us pick good online names

But definitely not all of us

[odd narwhal]

Saying "all names ever are cringe" is like, peak brainrot

I can't prove you wrong because there is no universe in which you are even close to right

[sick kite]

you don't believe this

would you change your name to DarQ irl?

[leaden sage]

sometimes i wonder if the internet would be better (or worse) if we were forced to use our legal names

[bright hill]

I could say no

butdoublingdownwouldbefunnier

so yes

absolutely

[viscid hill]

someone called me Dilectus Beatus in a dream

so i consider this my real name

[odd narwhal]

I only use my illegal name

[static loom]

I would use my middle name but it's against the law

[light needle]

use your mothers middle name

[summer sandal]

Are you serious?

[static loom]

law of excluded middle 😭

[summer sandal]

Turns out names can be illegal.

[viscid hill]

lol

[unkempt moon]

lmao

[fervent pebble]

mero rly waited an hour and a half for that lmfaoooo

[carmine creek]

#serious-discussion being dead as always

[burnt dune]

Who said the quote that involves digging to find the gold

[neat lintel]

Hey

[burnt dune]

Ie doing examples?

[neat lintel]

How do I prepare myself for 11th grade?

What are the topic one learns for math at 11th grade ?

[burnt dune]

depends really

[leaden sage]

@neat lintel calculus and linear algebra and stuff

[burnt dune]

What did u learn in 10th grade

[neat lintel]

I had a kind of shortcut tbh

And I didn’t go to a real 10th grade school

But now at 11th I will do

Last year I was very neglectful and so on

They say it’s going to be hard at this school

So I want to know what I have to expect

[burnt dune]

you can always review your algebra and trigonometry stuff

At most review ur precalculus stuff

dont think u will do anything higher than calc at 11th grade

[neat lintel]

What is calculus exactly?

Are linear and quadratic algebra considered as calculus?

[burnt dune]

No

[neat lintel]

Functions?

[burnt dune]

calculus is finding rate of change of a function and area under a curve

yea sorta functions

derivatives and integrals basically

[burnt dune]

Considered algebra

[neat lintel]

You mean it’s kinda interconnected with algebra?

[burnt dune]

No its just algebra

[neat lintel]

Unrelated: what considered means in that sentence?

[burnt dune]

I meant that doing linear and quadratic equations is algebra

[neat lintel]

Ahh I just noticed which one you have replied to

Thank you 😊

I have an idea now

[burnt dune]

no problem

[knotty pollen]

Lotta studying

[neat lintel]

Wdym?

[knotty pollen]

Learning Calc

Im at UNI rn and catching up on Alg/Calc along side calc

Didn’t care in HS but my major is pretty math heavy 😅

[fathom swallow]

Degenerate

[crystal stream]

90% sure this diverges

[bright hill]

the numerator is less than 2(n!)

so the series has an upper bound of 2

[crystal stream]

For some reason I thought the sum of factorials had a closed form

that was something like (n+1)! + something

But that was $\sum_{k = 0}^{n} k k!$

[fathom swallow]

pairo

[static loom]

naively I'd guess 1 but could be wrong, just based on it being 1 + 1/n + 1/(n(n-1)) + 1/(n(n-1)(n-2)) + ... + 1/n! and guessing these extra terms after 1 go to 0 in the limit

[bright hill]

what's $\lim_{n\to \i} \sum^\i_{i=1} \frac{1}{n^i}$?

[fathom swallow]

DarQ

[bright hill]

that's probably 0, ngl

wait hmm

[static loom]

that's a geometric series so you could evaluate it

[bright hill]

that's a geometric series lol

yeah that's 0

so $1 + 1/n + 1/(n(n-1)) + 1/(n(n-1)(n-2)) + ... + 1/n!<1+1/n+\sum^{n}{i=1} \frac{1}{n^i}<1+1/n+ \sum^\i{i=1} \frac{1}{n^i}<1+0+0$

[fathom swallow]

DarQ

[static loom]

I think your inequality is backwards since 1/(n(n-1)) > 1/n^2

[bright hill]

but 1/(n(n-1))<1/n

there are two 1/n there

[static loom]

I see I didn't look very closely at what you wrote, I think your upper index on your sum should have been n-2 then, not that it matters much but that's all I looked at originally and assumed you were comparing them that way haha

nice I guess you solved it then

[bright hill]

I think your upper index on your sum should have been n-2 then
I knew it was wrong but I didn't want to think about it too much

[static loom]

yeah once you go to the infinite sum doesn't matter anyways lol

[deep mango]

I guess you can notice that the sum of 1! to (n-2)! is bounded by (n-1)! (since each term is less than (n-2)! and there are less than n-1 terms) and then the numerator is bounded by 2(n-1)! + n!. Then the 2(n-1)!/n! part goes to 0, so you're left with n!/n! which goes to 1.

That's an upper bound on the limit, for a lower bound throw out everything besides n! on top. that also goes to 1.

So the limit is 1.

@bright hill

[deep mango]

I still dont understand this. Sure, 1/n is above 1/n(n-1), but why is 1/n^2 above 1/n(n-1)(n-2)? And so on

In particular, I am skeptical that n^(n-1) is less than n! (It's not).

Good problem though.

I remember a fun one that felt kind of like this

[neat lintel]

I'm have some trouble with this, I'd love some help! Thank you

[uncut socket]

@hollow sundial You're not a helper anymore?

[hollow sundial]

hellllsssss nah

it was a fun six months, but i didn't like all the entitled people and daily occurrence of new people abusing pings among other problems and doesn't seem like anyone's trying to solve it.

[uncut socket]

You were a helper for 6 months?

[neat lintel]

six months
my condolences

[uncut socket]

And I know, people can't read how to get help properly, ever

[hollow sundial]

lol i just said the same thing to someone else

[hollow sundial]

yea i don't know how to solve this problem. there's nothing disincentivizing people to not break rules if that gets them help faster and enough helpers are curious/kind enough to help despite people asking break the rules to get help in the first place.

[uncut socket]

Prime example #help-15 message

[hollow sundial]

lol #help-15 message

i admire @tiny forge and @storm sage since they seem to keep an even keel

[storm sage]

what lol

wdym

[hollow sundial]

other people too. usually why i rep helpers in #bots. there's absolutely nothing benefiting to being a helper so i give imaginary points

[storm sage]

I just do it for fun

[hollow sundial]

you and @tiny forge are always patient

[storm sage]

I only answer ones I feel like

[hollow sundial]

when did you start?

well yea me too

[storm sage]

oh yea ig I don't really get mad a lot

like a week ago

[uncut socket]

I'm patient to an extent, only when people start questioning everything, I get annoyed

[hollow sundial]

like i can't do anything algebra related

[storm sage]

I get annoyed too but I don't help while annoyed

[hollow sundial]

yea i can relate

[uncut socket]

Like if people understand the concept fully, then they question the final answer. Like bud, if you applied everything I stated and typed it in a calculator properly, 95% of the time it's correct. Like why are you questioning?

[hollow sundial]

like eric helped this person i was trying to help, but they needed extraordinary amount of explanation, so eric shoo'd me away which i appreciated. but at the very end out of nowhere decided to shit on me and other people before him.

[storm sage]

yea I was annoyed by that

[hollow sundial]

i knew i should have blocked earlier

[storm sage]

but I didn't want to start about it

[hollow sundial]

take the high road

[hollow sundial]

stay innocent, young one

[neat lintel]

insult block and never interact with again

[storm sage]

nah I don't do that

[hollow sundial]

i wish i blocked before helping them so far only for them to disregard all of my effort

[uncut socket]

I don't recall if you were suffer in the background with me, when someone could not do basic multiplication. Now that was annoying

[storm sage]

I usually just try to empathize

I know what it feels like to not understand something even though it feels basic

[hollow sundial]

i feel like this has happened more than once

[storm sage]

so I just picture myself from that perspective

and then ask what would be helpful to me if I were in that situation

and then whenever I get frustrated I just say I have to go and someone else can probably help

Lol

[hollow sundial]

i applaud this self control

[uncut socket]

Or when I tell people Google exists, and people should utilize it. Like formulas. People come here, asking for a formula, and the first thing I tell them, is google it

[uncut socket]

To me, yes. But what about you?

[neat lintel]

using google well enough to get a meaningful result is a skill some have yet to develop

[hollow sundial]

oh to me? i don't think anything as basic as multiplication, but maybe something like adding and multiplying fractions?

[uncut socket]

But if someone was looking up the formula for compound interest or arc length. Simple things to google and you need zero skills to do that

[storm sage]

Sometimes when someone tells someone to google something, it is just condescending, so I try to soften the tone

[peak tide]

unfortunately there's a lot of b.s. math "help", particularly at the lower levels, on random internet sites. the situation is not quite as bad as it is for programming, but it's not great

[neat lintel]

some people are just afraid of trying things

[storm sage]

Yeah

Math help is 50% math 50% emotional support

[neat lintel]

this is why i do not bother with most channels

[uncut socket]

I meant the fact that people can't do basic multiplication, did that experience happen to you too, or were you referring to all my experiences you witnessed?

[hollow sundial]

damn me telling people to try anything is like 10% of my suggestions

[storm sage]

Unironically; I think emotional support is a good skill to have

[vivid halo]

for my advisor it's like 75% emotional support

[wild lantern]

People like you tropo, det, chmonkey and stuff in the advanced channels are like most of the reason I'm here.

[uncut socket]

Math help is more like 25% math help, 50% emotional support, and 100% people cheating on tests and quizzes

[neat lintel]

[storm sage]

I mean if they're obviously cheating then just don't help them

[hollow sundial]

i do remember reading you helping people with the very basics. i never struggled with multiplication myself.

[storm sage]

I usually assume good faith

[tiny forge]

hello my ears are burning

[neat lintel]

i would probably go insane if i tried to help in something like #calculus or the basic help channels. for my own sanity (and learning!) i keep it to a select few

[uncut socket]

I message modmail or ping mods right away. Mainly message modmail so that way people don't run when I ping mods

[neat lintel]

as a masochist i will say that the helpers role looks unbearable to have

[storm sage]

eh it's fine

[wild lantern]

I like being able to jump into the help channels and help when I feel like it but I don't think I'd want the pings.

[storm sage]

you can just ignore the pings that you don't want to help with

[wild lantern]

Yeah true

[hollow sundial]

i'm definitely the opposite.

[neat lintel]

but you still get the ping

[storm sage]

that just makes things more combative

[tiny forge]

I can definitely how there is a pipeline helpers can go through where they end up bitter and horrible when helping lol and I don't blame them, I just try stay out of it

[storm sage]

which makes you more annoyed

[tiny forge]

I turned the pings off immediately lmao

[hollow sundial]

indeed. i only lasted 6 months. i didn't optimize for the long term metrics

[uncut socket]

And also, when people don't do their research, and it's a concept I'm too lazy to teach, like point slope or something simple where there are tons of videos, like khan or organic chem tutor, I always link the video

[wild lantern]

Sometimes it's like a kid, where obviously they haven't done any research but I don't feel like I can blame them too much for it.

[uncut socket]

I had this save

[tiny forge]

@hollow sundial you became very efficient at linking people specific websites for their needs

[storm sage]

yeah linking the video is a good approach

[hollow sundial]

i'm always down to add extra details to videos, but no one seems to want to watch them in the first place

[storm sage]

LOL I told someone not to ping helpers role until 15 minutes passed and then they dmed me and called me a c*** (racial slur)

I was laughing so hard

[hollow sundial]

thanks. it became muscle memory

[storm sage]

Like what effect did they think that would have

[tiny forge]

!15m

[quasi jetty]

Please only use the <@&286206848099549185> ping once if your question has not been answered for 15 minutes. Please do not ping or DM individual users about your question.

[tiny forge]

PSA that this exists

[storm sage]

oooh

[tiny forge]

scares them

[storm sage]

well

I don't wanna scare them

I wanna be inviting

[uncut socket]

I like to ping them directly

Not use the bot

[hollow sundial]

damn way to overachieve

[wild lantern]

Can you @ them and do the 15m cmd? Lol

@wild lantern !15m

[neat lintel]

they should skip @​Helpers and just ping @everyone

[uncut socket]

Let's see
@wild lantern !15m

[tiny forge]

you'd be surprised how often they try

[uncut socket]

Nope

[wild lantern]

Ah dang

[tiny forge]

!15m @hollow sundial

[quasi jetty]

Please only use the <@&286206848099549185> ping once if your question has not been answered for 15 minutes. Please do not ping or DM individual users about your question.

[wild lantern]

O i c

[storm sage]

wdym

[neat lintel]

@here @everyone @​Helpers @​ModMail @​Moderators @neat lintel PLEASE HELP ME WITH MY HOMEWORK IT'S DUE IN TWO MINUTES PLEASE HELP

[hollow sundial]

how do i remap @helpers to @tterra

[hollow sundial]

i never thought about doing this

[storm sage]

I mean I think being inviting is half of the job of helping, if you want to help condescendingly then maybe it's just better if you stay quiet because that can damage a person's attitude toward math permanently

[hollow sundial]

being inviting?! shit i'm just trying to explain math

[wild lantern]

You tend to be super patient.

[hollow sundial]

i think this is definitely my issue, at least half the time.

[neat lintel]

being condescending to someone who is themselves condescending is very fun though

[uncut socket]

I'm just trying to not lost braincells with the stupidity

[tiny forge]

it kinda has to be an effort on both ends, us as helpers have to be patient and understanding, people looking for help need to at least put in some effort and use their initiative

[hollow sundial]

thank goodness someone else notices besides me. i thought the new level of being a normal human was @storm sage and i'm not ready to make that leap

[storm sage]

Yes there should be an effort on both sides definitely

[uncut socket]

I have this too