serious-discussion

[glossy marlin]

anyways I´m going to bed... for no reason...
-# I don´t know what exactly is going on in my brain but comfort, actual rest and my first language just aren´t a thing in there

[teal lion]

what is the good?

yooo

[dreamy crag]

asks for constructive criticism
gets constructive criticism
cries anyways

Every single time

[stark trench]

That's awesome!

Hope you enjoy it. Makes me excited.

[forest herald]

Hello has anyone here worked with R studio?

[long orchid]

how true has the "omg leftists can't handle dissenting opinions" trope been in y'all's experience? (if applicable)

coz for me as someone who's fairly centrist i don't really get shit for it by really any of my lefty friends

[stark trench]

it's not true

[long orchid]

yeah i asked because I've kinda been conditioned to expect a lot of pushback from a few conservative friends i used to have

and it like... just Does Not match up with my experience

oh it's just a trope lol, don't ask me if it makes sense /shrug

[stark trench]

@sour bridge the other problem is that majority consent doesn't seem to actually justify any authority at all. like, just because i vote you in office doesn't actually make you apt at determining what my rights are or what constitutes freedom. we are not experts, and you probably wouldn't want, e.g. scientific consensus to be decided by majority rule among non-experts, i.e. non-scientists.

like majoritarian thinking seems to only be useful insofar as it is a proxy for more basic facts and it doesn't justify any sort of political authority on its own, just like it doesn't justify scientific authority or scientific legitimacy.

[long orchid]

what is this in reference to?

[stark trench]

a conversation in the other channel we got shooed away to here

[sour bridge]

So people's opinions and choices are illegitamate because they are not experts?

[long orchid]

wait are you arguing against democracy wait what

[sour bridge]

That sounds against anarchism

[stark trench]

yes

i gave a basic argument against political authority there and i'm giving a localized argument against democracy here

[long orchid]

ah is this some anarchist stuff

[stark trench]

well, i am not choosing for anyone other than myself, whereas when i vote i am choosing for you and for me and for everybody else

this is sorta clearly a morally relevant difference, i think

(to be fair i don't think it is but i also don't endorse rights or like, anything resembling unique obligations to the self---almost everyone else does)

[stark trench]

the basic point is that i'm sorta free to believe whatever i'd like as a non-scientist but we obviously shouldn't treat the determinations of non-experts as legitimate when deciding overarching orthodoxy, e.g. on climate change

[sour bridge]

But everybody is also choosing for everybody else... so if I use my freedom it is most definately violating someone else's freedom... so therefore we should have no governments so that absolutely nothing would change and now we have no laws??

[stark trench]

and we can discuss localized norms or what-not but the burdens for political authority are much higher

[stark trench]

well, there are obviously immoral things, yeah

like it's immoral for me to kill you, and i shouldn't do that. but this alone doesn't justify my right to legislate your behavior nor make you subservient to an epistemically risky political authority

but for instance my choice to believe phi has no impact on whether you're free to believe phi or psi also

[sour bridge]

But having a risky authority is better than no authority. If there is no govt, it's not like nobody's righst would be violated

[sour bridge]

What if i want you to kill me tho? Is morality then violating my right to be killed?

[long orchid]

is there any text you're pulling this from @stark trench would love to read

[stark trench]

i agree, it wouldn't be! immoral things still happen, but the government itself is immoral and people's rights are still violated now, and in great degree (greater because the government is constantly violating them!)

but having a risky authority isn't better than no authority. consider scientific practice. it is desirable in many contexts to have no scientific authority, and when we poll scientists this is done often for epistemic reasons rather than authoritative ones.

[stark trench]

the text that sketches this argument the clearest is huemer's The Problem of Political Authority although huemer also goes into some detail about how this would entail anarcho-capitalism i'm not a huge fan of

but huemer is great because he's a very clear and straightforward author

he basically just says what he thinks and provides some elaboration and gives very clear arguments for things (sometimes very silly things, like he believes in [non-theistic] immaterial souls lol)

anyhow i have to sleep but i hope it's clear @sour bridge anarchism isn't really a fringe belief and it has very good arguments in favor of it

[long orchid]

wait like are you an anarchist lol

[hidden bough]

Sorry, it's not entirely clear to me why a non-theistic immaterial soul is silly

[stark trench]

i mean, it's a very plausible idea actually, it's only silly to me because i'm like a die-hard materialist

[sour bridge]

Governments violate them but the ideal perfect government doesn't, violation of pure freedom is definately going to happen, X can wish ti violate Y's freedom. Are we viilating X's freedom by not leting them violate Y's freedom?

[stark trench]

i was thinking about these a lot lately

[hidden bough]

Oh, silly to you, sure

[sour bridge]

I'm in an fking storm rn

[stark trench]

and transness and interworld identity and the song "Immaterial" by SOPHIE which i think is exactly about immaterial souls

[sour bridge]

It's raining so hard

[hidden bough]

Is there really much point in talking about some platonic ideal of a government

[sour bridge]

And im outside

[stark trench]

this kinda emerged out of me defending the sensibility and plausibility of anarchism, i am not an anarchist but i'm incredibly sympathetic to it. were i not a utilitarian i would almost certainly be an anarchist

[hidden bough]

I would also challenge the assertion that even such an ideal government doesn't violate people's rights

This issue of magma's seems kind of baked into what a government is

[sour bridge]

I'm centralist, I just try to disagree always

[stark trench]

@stray fox the two ducks meet

[sour bridge]

https://tenor.com/view/duck-ducks-confused-surprised-what-gif-1845535727828628932

[hidden bough]

Do you mean a contrarian

[sour bridge]

Dawg it did not work

[sour bridge]

"No"

:3

[long orchid]

still not clear to me that it isn't fringe, i haven't seen it come out in the polisci that i've vaguely brushed against

[sour bridge]

I'm drenched

[long orchid]

then again, i do more international relations/foreign policy stuff (weighting heavily on the latter)

in the sense that -- and maybe this is a limitation of the sources i read -- everything i read when contrasting democracy against "other forms of government" typically brings up autocratic regimes

presumably because anarchy isn't particularly likely or historically precendented? idk

@stark trench can you give me an incredibly condensed argument for why it makes sense i don't want to read across two channels xx

[stray fox]

Oh my god

I’m a right leaning centrist, the ducks really do meet

[stray fox]

Scared the shit out of me, thought I was getting cancelled for transphobia or something getting pinged here

[long orchid]

have you said transphobic things or some shit

[hidden bough]

This is not at all what anarchism is though lol

Ok then why are you replying to "can you explain to me why anarchism is reasonable"

[long orchid]

this is very obviously what i meant lol

[hidden bough]

Yes I agree

That's why I said that

[long orchid]

oh no i was replying to heckler

referencing ur message

[long orchid]

sure. but you haven't explained the "so no authority is better" part

that's like. the whole argument imo

[hidden bough]

No not really? I feel like the first sentence of the wiki article would give you a better understanding than this

[long orchid]

oh never mind lol

[primal lynx]

Can anyone help me understanding calculus

[quasi jetty]

To ask for mathematics help on this server, please open your own help channel or help thread. See #❓how-to-get-help for instructions.

[primal lynx]

Ok

[hidden bough]

Ok I didn't actually check the first sentence of the wiki article this was mostly hyperbole

It is possible that the literal first sentence does not give you a great overall picture of anarchism

Nonetheless the motivation is certainly not (uniformly) that authority "is corruptible" or whatever

This I would say is closer to true

Depends on the anarchist

[long orchid]

hmm i wouldn't necessarily jump from corruptible to unacceptable tho? like we have checks and balances for a reason

[hidden bough]

Yeah I wouldn't jump from corruptible to unacceptable either but that wasn't the part that was "closer to true"

[long orchid]

ohh ok

[hidden bough]

Certainly this is one angle you can take (and indeed it's more defensible than you seem to think) but in fact it's a very common anarchist position that authority/the state/so on are illegitimate regardless of whether you think they have poor policy or whatever

[long orchid]

why? and more particularly how does this make anarchy "not fringe"

[hidden bough]

I think relatively speaking it's kind of fringe though I'm sure magma has good answers to that

[long orchid]

again i just haven't seen it much in what i read... then again i read a very small subset of things

[hidden bough]

One reason that gets tossed around is the sort of fundamental tension between authority and individual liberty

[long orchid]

i take almost nothing as necessary, not even liberty tbh

[brittle spire]

I claim that mathematics induces the god

[hidden bough]

And that this coercion that's pretty much inherent to a state or whatever makes it illegitimate

[long orchid]

sure a state prohibition on say, killing someone, is a violation of one's liberties

but i always think of governance as a compromise

even within your anarchic system you induce other tradeoffs presumably

[hidden bough]

Sure there are tradeoffs to pretty much anything

[long orchid]

right so back to the question, why do anarchists believe that the tradeoff is worth it?

[hidden bough]

I think most anarchists wouldn't claim that anarchism is like categorically better by every measure because this would be silly

[long orchid]

sure so what are their reasons

[hidden bough]

I don't actually know that I have a great answer to this that's nontrivial, but this isn't the kind of thing I spend too much time thinking about

I think Heckler's response is silly though

[long orchid]

again, why

that's not a substantive reason

[hidden bough]

Obviously there might be underlying irreconcileable value differences but that's obviously not all there is to these things

Otherwise there wouldn't be all that much to think about

[iron nest]

guys i have 3 months to do all my of school work

im in 8th grade and i might be cooked

[long orchid]

so i tend to think in very foreign policy terms, so my immediate way of thinking is how a particular nation would be impacted were it to become an anarchy

bruh

[hidden bough]

My guess is that talking about things like anarchism probably requires a pretty different framing here

[long orchid]

yeah i had an inkling...

[hidden bough]

Because once you abolish states/a state you don't really have the same notion of nation in place either

[long orchid]

but I mean off the top of my head, wouldn't an anarchic state be more susceptible to violence?

and i don't mean just the abstract notion of violence. i mean that which leads to loss of life and limb

[hidden bough]

I'm sure there are many great answers to this that other people including magma are familiar with but I'm not sure what they are

[long orchid]

okay fair

[hidden bough]

At this point the answer is probably "go read Huemer" or whatever magma recommended

[long orchid]

i tend to have a disdain for abstract political philosophy

[hidden bough]

Or maybe "go read the SEP" if you want something less time consuming

[long orchid]

but fair

like idk. i very much try to be guided by empirics

so philosophy, while incredibly interesting, doesn't seem useful? certainly humans do things for now reasons than their utility so it doesn't bother me per se

oh I'm specifically referring to like political philosophy i guess

but what do i know i read policy stuff way too much

[hidden bough]

Political philosophy is a lot of what drives, like, politics? This seems like perhaps the worst possible example of "philosophy that isn't useful"

[long orchid]

does it? i will eat my hat if the average voter or politician gives two shits about idk, John Rawls when politicking

[hidden bough]

Maybe not by name and maybe not Rawls in particular

[long orchid]

okay i mean i will admit a mild retraction in that political philosophy seems useful for idk, designing models of governance

[long orchid]

tying back into the anarchism debate

okay maybe it is useful idk

but certainly less concrete than what i like doing for the moment for sure

[hidden bough]

But taking America as an example then basically all of our core political values as a nation are descended pretty directly from the political philosophies that informed the founding of the nation like Lockeanism

[long orchid]

fair enough i suppose

[hidden bough]

The fact that the redneck saying X or Y doesn't know who Locke is doesn't mean his ideas don't come from Locke or some other thinker

[hidden bough]

There is I'm sure plenty of concrete anarchist thought

Cause it's a pretty large school of thought

[long orchid]

my point was that they would certainly be dumbed down and stripped of all the argumentation in Locke (i say, having not read him), and if you are trying to understand the behavior of the average voter, you would be better suited by something uh... empirical

[hidden bough]

Yeah sure if you want to do that specific thing you should do polls and studies and so forth but why is this necessarily your aim lol

[long orchid]

preference tbh

[long orchid]

see above

[hidden bough]

Maybe you're a lobbyist or lawmaker who is considering some piece of legislation

[long orchid]

sure, i get what you mean

[hidden bough]

I mean sure again I would point out that there's almost certainly plenty of concrete work on anarchism, but it's also perfectly reasonable to just not care about anarchism

[long orchid]

i would still like there to be a strong empirical component, but obviously the argument itself (towards a particular goal) would be ideological

in the sense that the data describes the world but makes no prescriptions on how it should be

(is ought problem...?)

[long orchid]

i guess it's just not what i like to read, here's an example of what I do read (gift link)
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/guest-pass/redeem/3ETK3VKbotk

[ashen marsh]

"It pits two dramatically different political systems—one democratic, the other authoritarian—against each other." oh my god i , dislike these people

[ashen marsh]

i dont think its a tradeoff. its more like how it already is

you are not immune to propaganda

i think that "anarchist" is kind of misleading. like, its just the belief that most people arent genuinely evil and out to hurt people for the sake of it

i dont leave my house every morning to get paid, i leave to see my friends

when people only leave their homes to get paid then society collapses

we are all anarchists

and i am not an anarchist im just, me

[long orchid]

why?

standard policy stuff lol, if anything i like it

[ashen marsh]

its an entertaining story but i cant see it as human-centered

[long orchid]

what do you mean

[ashen marsh]

it makes me feel small and worthless, like my only purpose in life is to be an "american citizen"

[long orchid]

yeah i mean fair enough, but like again what do you expect from a geopolitics publication 😅

[ashen marsh]

yeah lmaoo

[long orchid]

i like it though, i think it's very relevant to the world and i like to learn these perspectives. even though it's all gone to shit under orange leader

[ashen marsh]

i wish that we could tell stories and have fun like that without it being, yk, justification for being cruel to real people

orange man

who tf does he lead like genuinely. whats the chain of command? who does he personally lead, who is he a mentor to

[ashen marsh]

i can agree, i like having lenses

[long orchid]

and naturally i form opinions on it, but like idk

i used to be a china hawk a while back, truth be told that hasn't changed so much as i've just lost all faith in american leadership

i am kind of politically nowhere right now, after trump took over

[ashen marsh]

(i am anti-news because its kindof tyrannical about what should be important. like, who gets to decide whats breaking news)

[ashen marsh]

yeah same

i cant believe in any political leader

ive never been led by someone in that way

[long orchid]

the executive branch starting from the cabinet and the innumerable agencies within, the military, etc

do they get mentorship from him tho? i hope not

[ashen marsh]

haha

i mean its so weird that they all go with that

shrug

[long orchid]

i mean. during 1/6 capitol police took selfies with rioters. doesn't surprise me

[ashen marsh]

its such an elaborate thing im not trying to be like, tumblr dramatic

[ashen marsh]

yeahh

[long orchid]

what is rather astonishing to me is that american dominance ends by american suicide, not by like a rising china (which everyone was and still is afraid of coz you know. geopolitics brains.)

it's almost poetic in a dark way that the world america made after the end of ww2 ends by america's hand

[ashen marsh]

institutional system about dominating people takes selfies with riot

[ashen marsh]

it doesnt have to be this way

[long orchid]

i'm not american sadly

[ashen marsh]

i mean- this kindof phrasing is like passive voice

america is not a person, it doesnt do anything

[long orchid]

oh yeah for sure. vote in the midterms

[ashen marsh]

no i mean,

[hidden bough]

I wouldn't say that it's ending

[ashen marsh]

like, be kind to strangers

[long orchid]

ah yeah for sure

[ashen marsh]

what does it mean for america to end

[long orchid]

be a Good Human this is highly recommended

[long orchid]

the US led world order, was what i was referring to, and also i was being a bit dramatic

[ashen marsh]

but like who 😭 like I personally wasnt leading world order

im called american though

some leaders or something? i mean, who though. who instructs who

[long orchid]

why? trump's threatened to pull out of NATO more times than we can remember, openly boosted right-wing anti-internationalist forces in europe, launched us into a deeply unpopular and strategically dubious war of nobody's choice against iran, blatantly violated the norm against the use of force when he extracted maduro in january while making no effort to dismantle the antidemocratic regime structures in place...

[ashen marsh]

none of these things have altered the course of my life

[long orchid]

oh for sure, you as a human will be fine as usual, unless you're in iran or probably eastern europe

[ashen marsh]

which is fucked yeah

[long orchid]

taiwan might be cooked but nobody knows if/when china will invade, that conflagration was always risky though

for better or for worse, america made itself the world's policeman after ww2, esp after the cold war

[ashen marsh]

i got an offer to work as a nuclear engineer for the navy like 3 days ago lmao, sidenote i guess

yeah

i dont want to support world domination club

they dont seem kind

i gotta sleep its 4:00

[long orchid]

yeah no fair enough!

[ashen marsh]

(( it was really nice talking to you ))

[long orchid]

you too!

[ashen marsh]

:D yay

[long orchid]

unilaterally withdrew from >60 UN institutions (bearing in mind america is the ostensible leader of the liberal democratic order, as nonliberal, nondemocratic, and nonordered it has been at many times), blatantly restructured american domestic and foreign policy around his enrichment (ffs isn't jared kushner on the bOarD oF pEaCE), continued american complicity in the genocide in palestine

on top of that his style of statecraft has been exceedingly erratic -- starting from the on again, off again tariffs coming from a country that once championed free trade and open markets, his near complete reversal on his china policy over his first four months from maximal pressure to self-interested dealmaking, in the war on iran he has gone from inviting china to participate in the strikes to designating them a potential target

after all this, i don't think any state, in any capacity, would trust the US as much as they have in the past (esp europe, who subcontracted their defense to the US under NATO) under any future administration. it's over. all i hope for is that something more equitable, just and fair rises from the ashes, because in quite a few ways what we left behind was not as beautiful as foreign policy liberals like to claim it is

i know this isn't really an argument, just more like a rant by someone who's too disconnected form the day to day reality of the average person, but i just wanted to get this out sorry

if anyone actually cares about this (and as far as US politics go, foreign policy should be the least of your concerns imo) i'll try and think through a formal argument later, but rn this is just all i've got

[sharp yarrow]

No

[stiff kelp]

I would say that even taking over Venezuela was a move that was a suprise for the rest of the world

Europe is slowly but surely trying to cut itself from US technology to be more independent, which is also done by china. At one point, if China for example can make anything cheaper than anyone else and at the same quality, unless the governments stop those transactions from happening in their country, a lot of money will go to China and will be very dependent, while also killing their own economy

[devout cliff]

The US has arrested the heads of foreign states before in South America, engaged in constant warfare and has been complicit in genocide in the Middle East for decades. I always laugh when people act like this is new behavior for America that’s unprecedented when this is just business as usual. It’s not new people just started paying attention with a critical eye

Compared to pretty much any period in recent history, this is the most tame the US has been in terms of foreign policy

[stiff kelp]

Perhaps yes, but there is always room for improvement

[devout cliff]

Definitely room for improvement 😂

[plush idol]

China has for better or worse positioned itself as the “stable superpower” and a lot of the international order is shifting towards stronger ties with China as a result (eg a lot of Europe as well)

Basically Xi is like

do nothing
watch the US destroy its own soft power

Which, honestly, fair enough.

A China led world order seems better than an American one at this point tbh.

[stiff kelp]

A world order led by one country is wild

What will be the name of that nation?

We always label

UNE (United Nations of Earth)?

Hm, i mean, they are culturally at least different, so in some sense it can be separate

Krypton

[long orchid]

this is like completely false but ok

[long orchid]

i would actually dispute this, seems like the world order is shifting towards a lot of people fending for themselves -- i find it hard to to believe that europe will meaningfully diplomatically reorient itself towards china given a lot of their population (afaik) views it as knowingly complicit if not actively contributing to the war in ukraine

the main thing that i would be looking at is the global south, china has worked hard to improve its image there and it seems to have paid off, esp given like years of american neglect

[long orchid]

it's a choice between two awful options tbh

also like, there seems to be decreasing appetite for another flood of cheap chinese goods as the world turns to protectionism

[devout cliff]

When do you think the US was more restrained?

Debatably we had like a two year window during Biden that probably was the tamest America has been for decades, but even now we’re not invading over a dozen countries, illegally drone striking out the wazoo, running networks of torture and sexual assault camps, sponsoring regime change and coups around the world like the status quo has been for our foreign policy. Gaza is bad but nothing in comparison to what we’ve done in places like Yemen

Trump really just made people come to terms and be a realist to what American power looks like

[long orchid]

that's not what realism means /shrug

[devout cliff]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/realist

[long orchid]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realism_(international_relations) sure

i'd hardly characterize american foreign policy, especially under trump, as realist

[devout cliff]

In that sense, no

But I don’t think China is a viable power and is in a much more precarious position economically than they maintain, their manufacturing base is becoming a hindrance to their overall growth and the costs associated with their lack of regulation are mounting diminishing the returns of the approach. Sure you made cheap goods but now if you need to spend billions upon billions cleaning water, air and treating cancer it’s not as advantageous as it initially seems

[long orchid]

"over a dozen countries" is a ridiculous hyperbole even acocunting for the war on terror (and you'll find nobody in foreign policy apart from neoconservatives and warmongers supporting it, it's universally recognized as a failure), the illegal drone strikes have arguably escalated under trump the run up to the vzla raid, like idk what world you're living in

[devout cliff]

So you agree that this is pretty much par for the course for US foreign policy not some sort of completely new reality that came out of nowhere that shocks us all?

[long orchid]

i think the main reason people are especially critical of trump is his disdain for allies and open embrace of autocracies, a lot of boring procedural things that you can debate about (eg not getting a security council authorization for venezuela) and that he's openly self destructive as much as he is other destructive

[long orchid]

uh no, did you even read what i said?

at no point did previous presidents threaten to pull out of decade+ alliances and upend decision making bodies they helmed for so long

there was a strategy under biden at least, it is not completely erratic

and you can tone it down, people are allowed to disagree lol

[devout cliff]

We didn’t get approval from a security council when we took action against Nicaragua or Panama either iirc, at least Trump didn’t send in a few battalions of marines to arrest Maduro. I’m pretty sure the security council tried to condemn our actions in Nicaragua

The US military never has felt that it needed the UNs approval in order to act

[long orchid]

you mean the occupation of nicaragua in 1912?

[devout cliff]

Also I’m sorry if I came across as more direct than I intended

[long orchid]

no worries

[devout cliff]

No we intervened in the 80s to overthrow the Sandista government, classic regime change shenanigans due to muh communism

[long orchid]

ah yeah i found it

and to reiterate, unilateralism is only one reason i think the world is moving away from the US for good

the big one is actually the way trump treats alliances, which is basically unprecedented in recent history afaik (just turning our back on europe, for instance)

like american foreign policy has absolutely been unilateral in the past i tried to allude to that with the nonliberal nondemocratic nonorder statement

but like take venezuela, the official justification is, afaik, "because we can", same with iraq not really nuclear weapons

i'm sure hegseth has made multiple claims invoking his delusion of flexible realism and how might makes right -- not even attempting to justify the war in international fora

[devout cliff]

That is a completely new direction and was pretty unthinkable until recently. In some sense a Eurocentric defense framework doesn’t fit Americans current strategic goals like it did during the Cold War. But promoting illiberal regimes does nothing to help our positioning

[long orchid]

what's shocking, to me, is how brazen and unapologetic it is

tbc i was kind of ranting it wasn't a very coherent argument of any kind

but artichoke was like "i think the order will survive" or something and i was like "my fucking ass" internally so i spat all that out

[devout cliff]

I’d be amazed if NATO holds on throughout his term, it’s pretty clear the Europeans don’t really like us unless we are giving them exactly what they want, nobody is going to fight and die for the other

I’d put the odds of article 5 making it through the current congress at like 15%

[long orchid]

i think the difference also between end of trump i and the forthcoming end of trump ii is like this psychological shift

afaik literally everyone just brushed aside what happened under trump i as some aberration, an oddity we can forget about

but he's been elected twice and the right's been remade in his image, it's a pattern now

like forpol liberals seem to be a bit weird about procedural stuff like justifying stuff to the security council for instance, stuff that does make sense tbh but like

like i said, all i hope is for a more just, equitable and multilateral world order to rise in the ashes

[long orchid]

there's also like inertia here -- now that europe is getting serious about it's own defense it's unlikely they'll fallback on the US even if a NATO-friendly president were to take the stage in 2029, those forces will stay in motion

tbh i feel like a lot of it is psychology. and how even the last vestiges of a positive image of the US has been shattered for good (and images are fake but also kind of important to diplomacy afaik)

maybe i should be clear in that i don't really defend a lot of american actions

[devout cliff]

Id like Europe to actually follow through on what its leaders are saying, I just doubt they’ll have the conviction to make the structural changes to their society necessary to achieve it.

Their economy is relatively risk adverse and struggles to incentivize heavy industry and manufacturing. There was a recent IMF report lamenting the majority of its top companies are in areas like fashion, tourism, entertainment with only a few automakers or industrials and looking for solutions

To compete with the US and China on military spending, AI spending when single data centers being built by the US are the size of the GDP of some small European countries, aerospace, satellite and communications, intelligence etc will take a massive structural reorientation that I’m not sure they will be willing to make

[long orchid]

yeah also like standard infighting between countries' rights and EU rights

europe is not going to become a superpower anytime soon imo

[devout cliff]

And the strategy of Canada and some of the Europeans of “I break up with the US, China is my new boyfriend” isn’t a serious long term solution and misses the opportunity in front of them

[long orchid]

again i don't know if china is anyone's new bf, it seems like everyone is hedging

i haven't been keeping up with the latest articles in this space tbc, maybe they are

[devout cliff]

I don’t think they are actually but more there’s a lot of articles using this rhetoric to be antagonistic

[long orchid]

like i'm from india, and while we were pretty shocked by trump's 50% tariff in... some point last year i forget it's not like we have forgotten our longstanding animus to china (with a border dispute in the northeast no less)

perhaps where china is most favored is africa and latin america, coz they have made quite some effort there in terms of soft power and infrastructure investments etc

[sharp yarrow]

*Pakistan

[long orchid]

wdym

[sharp yarrow]

China is very favored in pakistan

[long orchid]

oh yeah, they collaborate on infrastructure and also defense i think?

[sharp yarrow]

Most weapons of pakistan now are from China

[long orchid]

do they not have f16s

[sharp yarrow]

They're from the 1970s when the US and Pakistan were on friendlier terms

[long orchid]

ah okay ty for correcting

[sharp yarrow]

Despite China's history with oppressing muslims the pakistanis are willing to turn a blind eye in change for money(infrastructure and weapons)

[stiff kelp]

Very interesting revelations

[long orchid]

i mean if we're taking that route i suppose the countries that like china the most would be the so called CRINK axis or whatever the hell they're calling it now

[sharp yarrow]

BRICS?

[long orchid]

(some analysts believe that the increased coordination between China, Russia, Iran and North Korea constitutes an axis even if not formally enshrined in a multilateral agreement)

[devout cliff]

I’m not even sure Russia likes China, more just they’ve become reliant on them due to the current sanction regime. Chinas ripping off Russia massively and there’s nothing they can do about it

[sharp yarrow]

They do to some degree just because they have common objectives

[long orchid]

yeah like that's the thing. it's not like this shared commitment to a common future or even common values, it's just they all hate the US

[untold charm]

well the enemy of my enemy is my ally soo

[long orchid]

well to a point right, china hasn't intervened in iran's favor, for instance

russia ostensibly can't, since they're bogged down in a stalemate in ukraine against a technologically inferior adversary (this is still insane to me)

[sharp yarrow]

Because they have a more important objective which is Taiwan so they can't afford to do anything rash for now

Maybe that'll change in 2027

[long orchid]

oh yeah you're following that too right

[untold charm]

yes because they do not gain much in that regard- plus china cares currently more about economic objectives and other geopoloctial objectives in thier region

[long orchid]

right, it's still self interested, it's not a full shared coalition of X

[untold charm]

iran is not that close to china and historiccaly return on investment wouldnt be much and its not like china hates the us it just that the us is an obstacle to some of its objectives

i mean trump did recently go to bejing so relations arent so bad

[long orchid]

i think it's best thought of as independent countries somewhat aligning on grand strategy (anti US) but not fully mutually enshrined

[long orchid]

yeah trump wants to cut a deal with xi, just upending the icier shift in relations he himself caused in his first term

[untold charm]

i mean i think the biggiest point between china and us militarily would be taiwan.. i am not very well infomred on this but the us has some of its navy stationed there

[long orchid]

become the world's premier superpower by 2047 iirc

[untold charm]

true tarrifs this and tarrifs that 😭

[long orchid]

i used to be informed on this then trump happened and now i have no idea if the US will defend taiwan

[sharp yarrow]

The US doesn't have a formal presence in Taiwan, just surrounding taiwan e.g the Philippines and Japan

[long orchid]

doubly so given how many ever munitions we expended in the iran war trump diddling himself with the armed forces

[untold charm]

oh okay so i am assuming its not very directed but if something where to happen they are close enough and ready to react

[sharp yarrow]

They actually do, Losing Taiwan would mean an existential crisis for the US, because all the advance chips used for AI and Tech are all made in Taiwan

[untold charm]

honestly is there anything we actually gained from that war? like i am not just in an echo chamber but that war had no reason to start and still has no reason to keep ongoing??

[long orchid]

oh nah we've become a lot less ambigious in terms of strategic ambiguity, biden said the US would defend taiwan if attacked at least four times (instead of just giving the usual nonanswer of "is committed to the one china policy established whenever"), i believe the new national security strategy explicitly states that the defense of taiwan would be a priority? idk if i believe trump though

[untold charm]

ohhh that makes sense!

[long orchid]

no you're correct

[untold charm]

hmm well i think due to economics reasons as frosty stated the us would probably love to swoop in and protect taiwan espaccily if they can gain something out of it too other than just protecting the chips

[long orchid]

yeah fair, the other reason people cared was it would help china project power more aggressively in the indo pacific

it's still so wild to me that the US can just carry out wars halfway around the world

[sharp yarrow]

They dont gain something out of it, they literally NEED it

The world cant run without Taiwan

[untold charm]

hmm i think i just dont realize how important these chips are but ig it makes sense

[long orchid]

AI revolution babyyyy

all our smartphones and laptops, hell the integrated circuits shit in our cars

[untold charm]

they have always done so its one of the major economic factors in us

[sharp yarrow]

One of the thing people dont realized is that Nvidia and Apple dont make their own chips they design it and sent it to Taiwan for fabrication

[untold charm]

i despise AI more than anything and not because of the technololgy itself its because of how captilism forced this to become what ever mess it is

[long orchid]

well sure, but again for better or for worse money talks, and money runs the world

[untold charm]

and nvidia is bassicly t he thing holding the us stock market rn lol

[sharp yarrow]

40 percent of the stock value in the US is held by only 7 companies

[untold charm]

money talks until u have a gaint data center bieng build in ur city and suddenly u cant even breathe..
i think the fat that money talks is pretty much always for worse rather than good.. but thats a whole other conversation

[untold charm]

talk about putting all ur eggs in one basket..

[long orchid]

the stated reason is to prevent iran from getting a nuke (but hang on i thought last june's strikes precluded that possibility?)

[sharp yarrow]

Most of these companies are too big to fail

[devout cliff]

That’s why we’re onshoring production like we are

[sharp yarrow]

That'll take years and still only be a fraction of the market

[untold charm]

well tbh imo i doubt iran has ever made anything actually nuclear they are a part of the IAEA and they bassicly agreed to most searches 😭 also isreal has been claming that iran is jUST about to get nuclear weapons for like 20 years now

i cant belive anyone actually belives that the reason for the war is nukes 😭

[devout cliff]

True but all we care about is enough to give our companies the chips they need not whether the rest of the worlds demand could be met. Taiwan Semi already has facilities up and going in the US, if we modernize intel like the defense department is working on we would make out better than anyone else

[vivid halo]

Bibi believes this probably

[sharp yarrow]

Israel has actively been sabotaging the iranian nuclear program for 20 years, they made the first malware that actually destroys physical hardware just to mess with uranium refineries in Iran

[untold charm]

oh yeah i have heard of that.. but was iran ever even close to actually making any nukes??

[long orchid]

israel and the us, stuxnet was joint

[sharp yarrow]

The most likely reason the Iran war happened is simply put Iran was in a uniquely weak situation by then because all of the protests and the previous attack by Israel

[long orchid]

uuhhhhh before the 12 day war last june they did enrich some uranium well past the threshold for civilian use

[untold charm]

also i am pretty sure isreal semi manupilated trump into doing it too.. wait lettme find the article

[sharp yarrow]

We dont know, Iran though has infact refused IAEA inspection a couple of times

[long orchid]

(to around ~60% as opposed to the like 4% you need?)

[sharp yarrow]

Yeah, the Israelis basically showed a plan to the US on how to cripple the iranian leadership in a couple of days

[untold charm]

oh ohh- wait what- i think ineed to read more about this..

[devout cliff]

They were enriching beyond what’s reasonable for power generation and given that they only have one nuclear power plant there was no clear use for the material. But whether they would go for the bomb is an open question

I think their missile production is mainly what drove it, if trends continued then soon they’d be able to overwhelm the regions air defenses as a shield to then weaponize their uranium. The US didn’t seem content to let that be the reality

Bombing them last time seemed to be really easy and they lack any effective air defense so the US said why not

[untold charm]

where can i read about this btw? 👀 didnt hear of this before!!

[long orchid]

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/04/07/us/politics/trump-iran-war.html this one?

[untold charm]

thankss!!

[sharp yarrow]

https://world-nuclear.org/nuclear-essentials/how-is-uranium-made-into-nuclear-fuel

[long orchid]

uhhhh this was in a random article from carnegie endowment i believe? they're less shit as far as think tanks go

[sharp yarrow]

Basically you only need 5-7%

[long orchid]

every think tank has a slant, the goal is to influence policy, but of course there's a massive gulf between heritage foundation and brookings institution

[devout cliff]

Conveniently weeks before Big Bibi was at the UN proposing a pipeline that gathers oil from Africa, the Arabian peninsula and from the Asian markets to the Mediterranean that conveniently has to go through Israel through Gaza to avoid the strait of Hormuz. Funny how that works

[untold charm]

well i am looking for a specific quote from someone in the gov i dont remember who but basically it was something about making the plan of how they were going to present it to trump etc

[long orchid]

oh that, yeah then idk

[sharp yarrow]

Yeah the Israelis made the plan to kill Khomeini

[long orchid]

Khamenei

Khomeini is the first one way back since 79

[sharp yarrow]

Ah ic

So confusing

[devout cliff]

I’m kinda wondering if the current Khomeini is even alive

[untold charm]

-# wasnt that the one who they killed bassicly everyone in his family except him?

[sharp yarrow]

The one who is allegedly gay

[untold charm]

NO WAY?? 😭 WHA HOW DID I NOT HEAR OF THISS

[sharp yarrow]

https://www.thetimes.com/us/news-today/article/iran-supreme-leader-gay-mojtaba-khamenei-trump-jksqmzdsp

[devout cliff]

The dude is just getting memed on by Trump

[untold charm]

ALSO FOUND THIS ON THE WIKI??? does that mean they are pro-trans? or anti trans i am so confused 😭

[long orchid]

ambi trans

[devout cliff]

Irans weirdly and relatively progressive on the trans issue

[untold charm]

i did not expcet that lol 😭

[sharp yarrow]

You have to have a psychiatrist diagnosis to have the surgery irrc

[untold charm]

everytime i try to talk about anything in politics i am surprised about how confusing wierdly and frankly absurd it is 😭 i feel like even if i read everything i still wouddnt know anything 😭

-# also oops i kinda made #serious-discussion very not serious ;/ i shall carry my silliness out of here ;3

[sharp yarrow]

Well people are still in people, and people can be silly

[rapid valve]

Lmao

Iran going to do pini washing too now

[stoic tusk]

when will this chat be seriously serious

[mint canopy]

I think it's a bit more complicated than simply being pro/anti trans. My understanding is (and I really know very little, so people can correct me) that this is more intended to be a 'cure' for homosexuality. As I hope we are all aware, gay people in Iran are heavily oppressed, and this support of gender affirming surgery could be seen as merely a way to 'correct' the gender of a gay person

So while this might be beneficial to heterosexual trans people, I don't think this can be construed as a blanket pro-trans position

[stiff kelp]

Yo @long orchid @devout cliff what is the conclusion you guys came to?

[tired lintel]

MATHS IS TUFF

[dreamy crag]

That applies in all places tho

[tired lintel]

yo

[dreamy crag]

It’s surprisingly common for seemingly progressive legislation to be used to repress a different group

[devout cliff]

That the world is a weird place

[stiff kelp]

Amen

[soft pivot]

Hi, I’m Wassay. I’m looking to make international friends for cultural exchange and casual conversation. I speak English, Urdu, German, Arabic, and Persian, and I’d love to connect with people from different countries to learn about their culture and improve language skills together.”
💖🥀

[true zinc]

That's not an appropriate question for this chat

[stiff kelp]

Get a therapist

[tough tree]

thanks bro

[ashen marsh]

they want to control what youre allowed to be

[thorn wren]

You are welcome to retry joining the server tomorrow

[dreamy crag]

Serious discussy is really good at weeding out people who shouldn’t be in the server

[undone imp]

It is place to bait extremists, that's why it was renamed

[dreamy crag]

That’s not the actual reason why but it does act like that

The purpose is to have a place for more serious discussying

It’s very annoying when people assume my perception of myself is actually self hate

No, me saying I’m only part of a person is not self hate, I am literally just a part of a person, and if things were good for us mentally, we would be one person

Also people who don’t know shit about plurality trying to explain me to me is so infuriating

[true zinc]

I frankly do not understand how many systems do not want to integrate when that may be possible once things settle down

[dreamy crag]

Even tho I may not like some other systems, they are also me, so like, meh

[true zinc]

Like, why do you actually want to live like this, this is literal hell

[dreamy crag]

Very true, it really sucks

[true zinc]

I mean, anyone can be a bad person/people, systems aren't exempt from that

[dreamy crag]

Plurality isn’t fun, it isn’t quirky, it’s fucking debilitating most of the time

[true zinc]

I do not understand how some people say they've gotten to working together with their alters or whatever, that's...not how that works, at-least in my extremely marginal experience

[glossy marlin]

-# occasionally disordered, can be completely debilitating

[true zinc]

to me, alters are parts of me who just want to ruin my day

[fading leaf]

I disagree I think that trans identity is separate from gay identity people who enforce it are the ones that should be judged and so are the people that should happen to do inappropriate activities around children but trans identity itself is valid when people are not pushing it on other people who don't consent

[true zinc]

To me, being plural is much like how I feel being trans, I hate it, I hate it. I don't want to be like this, I don't want to dissociate all the time, I don't want to be dysphoric, in the ideal world I was born as a woman and I wasn't plural, simple as that, end of story

[glossy marlin]

transness and gayness are separate, nobody is pushed into either, neither are more likely to do anything inappropriate than cis or het peers, governments love to misuse tools and meds and blame minorities for their issues

-# cisness shouldn´t be pushed on people who don´t consent either

[dreamy crag]

Very true

[true zinc]

The whole concept of a "plural community" and such kinda pisses me off to me completely honest. I get the need for support groups and whatnot, but what the HELL do you mean you're now trying to create an in-group, what is that fucking accomplishing. What do you fucking mean you're now trying to paint what is a debilitating trauma-induced health issue for many many people (or for a small number induced by other reasons), into something positive or unique or something to "build community" around

It's the same with trans communities or stuff like that, this is going to come off as probably sounding transphobic, but I really genuinely do not mean it as such. If I come off as uninformed please educate me. But, I feel like, there's no joy in the process of transitioning, like, what is being gained in the process that wouldn't be gained if one were just born in their preferred gender/presentation/body/etc...? I've seen a lot of people say stuff like "oh the journey is half the fun" or other statements like that, and I really don't get it. Is it specifically the process of wanting to transition and such that you enjoy? At that point I genuinely don't understand, are you transitioning for the process, to alleviate dysphoria, or to seem quirky? Like, I know this probably sounds like transmed drivel, but I really just don't understand. Logically, if one is transitioning without having dysphoria, of for some people is so intense they want to constantly kill themselves or such, wouldn't someone who is transitioning for reasons other than it becoming near completely medically necessary, as it is for many many people, be taking away marginal resources and doctors that are allocated for this sort of thing anyway? Like yes I know that HRT and such are used for all sorts of other procedures and are available somewhat widely, but my point is that specifically for trans healthcare they are made scarce as a way to gatekeep

[fading leaf]

I agree I think the infertilization of minorities is the real problem nobody benefits from it and it actually prevents the bad people from being held accountable because they are trans or black or something

[true zinc]

infertilization or infantilization

[fading leaf]

Both at the same time actually

[glossy marlin]

well, there can be joy in the process of transitioning. often more than there would be in not transitioning. sometimes less than in not needing to.
some trans people understand themselves and the world around themselves better than cis people around them.
the problem with resources isn´t with the people, it´s with how limited the resources are.

[true zinc]

Also it genuinely makes me seethe when people talk about "healthy system dynamics" or whatever, why not just...oh idk, take the time you're using to try to get along with the diaparate parts of your brain and instead put that into fusion or whatever the heck it's called. I'm not one to dictate how people live their lives, but you're actively making your life harder

[true zinc]

Yes I agree but with the way the world is right now I feel that it would be better if we treated the resources as finitary at the moment, as the various governments and groups around the worls are already trying to make us do, then give out care based on for whom.those resources would be of the most benefit

In an ideal world, anyone who wanted to transition would be able to, this is not the ideal world, and treating it as such is detrimental and actively harmful to those who need it the most

[untold charm]

okay so imo and (inform me where i am wrong) but i think communities like that do help a lot i mean the solidarity alone of seeing someone else turn out okay in a tough situation u are in is nice its comforting and for the people who say the journey is half the fun etc my best guess is ur making the best out of a shity situation honestly i dont think i can ever have such a positive mindset but to those who can good for them also while i do agree on a moral perspective especially a person who has very little dysphoria vrs a person who is a day way of offing themselves should receive very very different amount of care sadly the healthcare system is absloulty SHIT and does NOT give a shit in any way at alll unless u go private sector and u ahve the money for it. but the communities do help share recourses and also some ppl DIY and thats helpfull too also for alot of ppl these spaces are the only place they feel safe to be themeselves.

[glossy marlin]

we´ve got a bigger problem with minorities being held accountable for baseless or completely nonsensical accusations made against them.
trans women existing in a space can get them labeled as pedos, banned and harrassed for months on end.
black people being in a rural area will be labeled rapists and criminals, harrassed, assaulted, arrested without any basis, etc.
there are some bad people in basically every community. the ones we fail to hold accountable are rich people, large companies and such.

[dreamy crag]

(Ok so I do agree, but also it’s hard to want to fuse or whatever when it’s with people who are actively bad people, like I know it’s for the best if i do, but I don’t wanna lol)

[true zinc]

I feel that this is also the case with DID and OSDD and most mental health issues or neurodivergencies, like....many people are born with them and are genetically predisposed and whatnot, but so many are also caused by trauma and other issues. I think that the fact that they can be caused by trauma should be enough to attempt to find treatments and very strongly encourage people to get and use them (and no I am not talking about groups like autism speaks and whatnot, they are not good people from what I know).

[dreamy crag]

Yes, and there are some good plural communities, but a lot are actively detrimental

[untold charm]

i agree but also the process of transitioning alone is already very difficult so if someone managed to get thier healthcare system to finally give a shit for them i think they deserve to get that care. yes there are other who need that care more but it is NOT the indivisual wanting to transation FAULT to deal with that. THIS is ENITERLY the HEALTHCARE system FAULT.

[flat harbor]

blame game

[true zinc]

Yes, I agree that the healthcare system would need to be improved for any signficant changes to take place, but in thw case where the healthcare systems won't improve, AKA like...modern 21st century capitalist hellhole Earth, then the next best thing would be pushed onto the individual, would it not?

[true zinc]

I do not believe any plural community is beneficial. IMHO theh become a mockery of suffering by trying to paint any asprct of it in a positive light

The goal with plurality IMHO should be eventually ridding it

Plurality is suffering. It is torture. Anyone who attempts to place either in any bit of a better light is frankly deluding themselves

[dreamy crag]

Some don’t do that, there are some which help in being not plural anymore

And some that act more like support groups than anything

Those are the ones I’m talking about

[glossy marlin]

how do we determine who needs it the most? is it always the ones in the most intersections? is it always the ones highest on some flawed suicidality measure, sorta like the pop quiz you gotta fill out at a doctor´s office? we can´t really do it. everyone should have access.
acting like everything is perfect when it isn´t sucks, but we´re not really doing that. more people have to work towards making it the ideal world. that can be activism, that can be working to make DIY HRT or sharing links to it, that can be making dosing information more accessible, etc.

[true zinc]

These are also the ones I am talking about

[true zinc]

I was under the belief that the only way would be to become familiar with your alters, talk to a therapist, and in a way, colloquially, force everyone into a box

Something something DID plurality coming from severe trauma before some.tome in early teenagehood where the brain's notion of personality isn't fully formed yet

Also something something I heard somewhere that the commonly cited age of 11 for that is flawed and wasn't actuslly cited anywhere?

[dreamy crag]

How is helping people cope with it not good?

[untold charm]

in a perfect world sure we would make a list of who needs it most and they would get proirity first but this is simply not applicable AND also we cannot put the standard on already one of the most disriminated and attacked groups. it is very unreasonable to expect anyone willing to go through all of the effort and trouble of transitioning to delay thier trasnitioning which often means delaying thier own happiness and comfort for how long. because there might be someone outthere who needs it more. using this logic poeple who have any excess money should donate it to all of those in need. but here its not just the money its also thier food telling them they can starve a bit first because someone else is more hungry. i agree its aterrible sitituation all around but having this expectation on already marginalized group is not helping anyone i think..

[true zinc]

Because coping with it \neq getting rid of it. Coping with it may give strategies to get through the day but that's all that's happening, you're making a person functional, but that doesn't remove the underlying parasite

[glossy marlin]

sometimes
there are very healthy systems. not all plurality is disordered, and some systems do succeed in reducing their struggles just by respecting everyone and trying to understand them as a whole person.
is sometimes extremely difficult (if possible) or very harmful.

[true zinc]

The risks outweigh the benefits, precisely

[untold charm]

this reminds me of how "BPD" is treatable yet the treatable part is just learning to manage it so u become functional towards the world but u still feel just as terrible.

[glossy marlin]

yeah, especially those with a lot of discourse, e.g. people saying endo / non-disordered systems are just faking it for attention or whatever...

[true zinc]

I have seen people like this and it genuinely makes me angry they exist, plurality isn't supposed to be hralthy like that, it's an overactive coping and defence strategy, you turn it off you don't weaponize it to your benefit

[true zinc]

.....about that

[dreamy crag]

I’d say that you should do both

[glossy marlin]

plurality is sometimes suffering

[true zinc]

Endos....kinda are appropriating the space, no offense

[devout cliff]

If this issue gets shifted into public healthcare out of the private industry, all that will happen is the next iteration of Trump will yoink funding and make it impossible for anyone to afford transitioning

[true zinc]

Like it's the same as my statement about trans health issues

[glossy marlin]

transness doesn´t require dysphoria, individuality doesn´t always get you in trouble...

[devout cliff]

Democracies aren’t stable enough for these sorts of programs or state funded healthcare imo

[true zinc]

I'm sorry but considering that most cases of some form of dissociative plurality occur after ||rape, incest, murder attempts, severe bullying, accidents, war, etc...||, I'd say it's definitely suffering

[glossy marlin]

endogenic systems are also systems. they can also talk about systemhood. they can also be disordered. they just don´t tend to have as much to say about how systems can come from trauma

[untold charm]

when is it not suffering??

[dreamy crag]

There is literally never a single time where being plural is better than not being

[true zinc]

Maybe in 5 years I'll have changed my tune and talk about how our system is more ordered and tame, but I do not see that in the cards for me right now and I just wsnt out of this hell

[fading leaf]

Yes and this is what I hate about the modern performative left is that oftentimes The Advocates don't realize that transitioning isn't a thing you do for fun it's a thing people do to feel good in their own body and when you take that out of context it becomes less nuanced and more look at me I'm transitioning it's bullshit

[true zinc]

Me when sometimes I don't want to go to class and James just switches in for me

[devout cliff]

Much of it just comes across as nonsense to the general public

[dreamy crag]

Ok fine I guess but you know what I mean

[untold charm]

also @true zinc the reason why i feel so strongly opinionated on this is because already this is a group of poeple who already are severily marginalized and already in enough shit. and u can imagne how a person who wants to be good might try to delay thier transition and hence happiness for years with the htought that they could indirectly have k*lled someone..

[glossy marlin]

I´ve met dozens of systems who are not disordered, you could find a lot in here, or in lunazera´s community, or in the valley, or whatever.
there was a system in my body, it was not the plurality that was disordered, it was everything that led to the split, and what I´m still going through

[untold charm]

but idk might be wrong

[true zinc]

No problem, I appreciate your viewpoints and reading from them

[true zinc]

And to that last point, this is specifically why I refuse to transition, even if the feelings of dysphoria nearly make me want to kill myself some days, there is always someone who would benefit more from the treatment than I would, and besides that I would put others' lives above mine any day, no matter what

[glossy marlin]

that´s the circumstances that lead to it.
it doesn´t tell you anything about the structures or symptoms of plurality.
a lot of disordered, dissociative plurality also just pops up out of nowhere.

[untold charm]

well idk tbh i am not informed enough on this topic maybe ryan can know more?

[true zinc]

Sure, we are a system of nearly 30 (we're probably actuslly far more fragmented and gradient like but that's for a discussion for another day), I apparently hold the most self hatred over being a system, and many of the others don't mind it, but frankly I really do doubt I am even a system most days and whether I'm just munchhusening it or faking for clout, mainly because the way it presents for us does not line up nicely with the dsm

Much of our severe trauma ||rape, bullying, murder attempts, grooming|| all occured after we turned 11-12, so it doesn't line up

Another reasoning being that we discovered out system at 17, which is far later than many usually discover it

[untold charm]

well tbh i am enby so for me its managable so i dont think i will be trying to anytime soon BUT FOR UR CASE U DEFEINTLY SHOULD?? i get the idea that u dont want to put urself above others and how it is mroally correct but TRUST ME there is ALOT more poeple who would benefit less than u if u litterly have sucidial thoughts please idk if u go to therapy or have someone u can talk to but maybe discuss this because u would be reducing ur quality of life FOR YEARS in the hopes that u do not harm someone indirectly. but then again u have ocd and i cant know how it feels for you but there comes a point where u have done more than enough self sacrfice.

[glossy marlin]

the DSM sucks. plurality can come from anything (endogenic or traumagenic) at any time (birth, 5, 47, whatever) , present in a dozen times more ways than it has space to list (some ordered, some disordered)

[untold charm]

the DSM in general is a very very general guidline andalso the DSM was wrong MULTIPLE times and the current DSM is probably not perfect EITHER

[true zinc]

That's the thing, I helped my cousin (who is plural)'s girlfriend find out she was plural a month ago, she's 20, I helped one of my good adult friends find our they were plural after a bad series of dissociative episodes after a very traumatic set of events a few years ago, I was 17 and they were 27? 28? We're still good friends

But like the more I dig into it the more I wonder if somehow I'd fucked up their lives or made them start overthinking what they are or-

[glossy marlin]

the DSM listed homosexuality as disorder a couple editions ago. that sorta stuff still happens. some information is slightly flawed, some blatantly wrong. some people said the DM-6 will be based on genes.

[untold charm]

-# ig the point is waether trasnition and having ocd spirals over it or not transitiong is worse. which is something personal to you so maybe my earlier message may be wrong. sorry if i came of as intrsuive or intruding in buissness that is not mine.

[true zinc]

I was talking to a friend yesterday about how transmed and sysmed groups are going to implode when the DSM 6 comes out if it redefines plurality

[true zinc]

Nono you're fine, I also just...need to move out first, but if I do I lose my family...

[untold charm]

same here..

[untold charm]

i dont see how it bieng based on genes would do much tbh.

[glossy marlin]

it´s very unlikely that helping them figure it out did harm. those fears are pretty common though.

[untold charm]

in general i DO not like mental instutions. but this is my own opnoin

[true zinc]

@glossy marlin also uhm 2 things, 1. Can we send you a friend request and 2. The whole thing about there being gradients...yeah so "Ryan" as an entity is a subsystem, and there are a lot of us with very slightly varying personalities and it's more like a colour gradient or wave, I don't know whivh one I am but I'm not the one from earlier

And by earlier I mean just about a minute ago

[untold charm]

can i ask a really dumb question ryan?

[true zinc]

Yeah go ahead

[glossy marlin]

well, it sounded like a lot of other eugenics and may make healthcare and accommodations impossible to access for many people...

[untold charm]

have u ever tried painting or some sort of creative work?

[untold charm]

god that sounds horrific.. wtf

[true zinc]

https://www.psychiatry.org/news-room/news-releases/apa-releases-roadmap-for-future-of-dsm

[true zinc]

When a lot younger yes, we're too bad at it to even want to try it now

Somwthing something we must be perfect at something to ever do it

[glossy marlin]

-# if they find a trans gene they may try to eliminate it. if they don´t find a trans gene they may say it´s not a real thing and treatments shouldn´t exist. same for a lot of other disorders

[untold charm]

ocd. makes sense.. 🫂

[true zinc]

@untold charm check your dms when you have a chance

[glossy marlin]

yeah, you can send a friend request.
and I get that personalities and structures in systems can be really confusing...

[true zinc]

I hate how nicely this linr of reasoning plays with my twisted-into-knots brain that was physical hard cold psper evidence for every little thing else it's wrong or fake or whatever term it decides that day

[true zinc]

Sent, if it doesn't show up just send me one and I'll accept it

[untold charm]

[untold charm]

WHAT THE ACTUAL F-???

also wdym if they find the gene they may try to eleminate it????? 😭

also HOW EXACTLY would atrans gene work??

[true zinc]

Yeah I'm confused on this part too

[untold charm]

gender is a SPECTRUM HELLO??? its not an on and off switch??

i guess non binary doesnt exsist 😭

disappears

[dreamy crag]

Explodes or smtn

[true zinc]

@untold charm @glossy marlin @dreamy crag I just wanted to apologize to y'all for this whole convo

[untold charm]

https://tenor.com/view/infinity-war-avengers-spider-man-death-vanish-gif-12094481

[dreamy crag]

Meh it’s fine

[true zinc]

(On the behalf of the other Ryan and myself and the rest of us)

[glossy marlin]

it wouldn´t work as far as I know...

[untold charm]

dont worry you are aalll goood i dont think i wouldnt be able to pick out a single thing even if i was trying to be nit picky lol.

[warm plaza]

bruh can no one else jump to her messages

[livid walrus]

What?

[dreamy crag]

Nope

[warm plaza]

so dumb

[dreamy crag]

Blame discord

[warm plaza]

yes ofc

[glossy marlin]

wdym by "what"

[untold charm]

there are certain features and mannerism that society views as masculine and there are certain features and mannerism that society views as feminine and every person is some sort of mix of both this probably isnt the best explination but u get the point

[livid walrus]

What does it mean to say that gender is a spectrum

[livid walrus]

I see

[noble tinsel]

It means people can have a mix of both masculine and femenine traits. Because there is no ultimate male or ultimate female. Gendered traits are social perception

[glossy marlin]

gender is not binary. men and women present in many different ways, and many people don´t identify or present as either.

[livid walrus]

I have understood what @untold charm said.

[true zinc]

For ex. James is nonbinary, ghost is genderless, etc...

[glossy marlin]

or at least don´t fully identify and present as one or the other. gnc, bigender, agender, genderfluid, just being themselves...

[dreamy crag]

Dr nowhere is maybe my favorite abstract artist

Just actually beautiful stuff, 100% recommend

[glossy marlin]

-# which are also just clusters in a high-dimensional cloud, which different cultures interpreted in different ways

[gusty pelican]

What would it have been like to have existed for TREE(3) years, with no memory loss/physical degradation and the ability to indefinitely accumulate knowledge

[glossy marlin]

it wouldn´t take very long to collapse into a black hole.

[gusty pelican]

ok let's assume there's no end of universe or anything

[glossy marlin]

try to write out 2^2^256

[gusty pelican]

buddy I know how big TREE(3) is

Ok fine noone truly does

But you get my point

[glossy marlin]

you gotta realize this stuff doesn´t really make sense to ask. imagine you were around from the stone age until now. if it was possible, it would kinda just be more of that.

[gusty pelican]

It's honestly always been an interesting hypothetical for me, what if someone hadn't just lived for a ginormous amount of time (like a thousand or a million years) but a googological amount of time

And they retained all their knowledge and memories so they aren't just always remembering the past century or two

[gusty pelican]

Um no, they would see not just society, but probably sapient species themselves collapse and come into fruition again an innumerable amount of times

[untold charm]

would that evn be possible how do u nto overwhelm urself??

[stiff kelp]

They would have been long ago experimented on and tortured for all kinds of information, possibly killed?

[gusty pelican]

They can be tortured but lets say they are true immortals

[dreamy crag]

I feel like you would just go brain dead

The brain can’t store that much information, not even close

[stiff kelp]

But they will still suffer? And can't escape?

[gusty pelican]

...... The people torturing them, and the chains that hold them would either die/ go away or decay eventually

[dreamy crag]

They would live with that trauma forever

We’re basically just making a god that can feel pain (an interesting thought)

[gusty pelican]

But they would have a nigh infinite amount of time to deal with that trauma (I'mma go get a delivery now but I will come back in a bit)

[true zinc]

Well depending on your religion of choice, god definitely can feel pain

[dreamy crag]

I suppose yeah

I to like fictional theologies :3

[true zinc]

Okay I am stimky and need to shower

Bye chat

[dreamy crag]

Bye! Get unstimky

[true zinc]

I will, I need to bc I have my graduation ceremony today

[rocky shuttle]

https://tenor.com/view/aye-aye-spirit-gif-14589000551808682765

[dreamy crag]

Oh, hope that goes well

[analog loom]

that's anthropomorphism, for god to feel pain it needs to have a neural system but for it to have a neural system it needs to be made from mater which contradicts the notion that god is a metaphysical being

i believe

[gusty pelican]

Yeah the thing I'm talking about, even if god-like, is very much not a metaphysical being

[dreamy crag]

It depends on the god

[glossy marlin]

yes it would be bigger things but they´d feel smaller and smaller every time, you´d not find much joy, you´d probably get depressed...
it would likely take "you" from you like dementia, but through memory.

[analog loom]

it just depends on your definition

[stiff kelp]

Well eventually yeah, but they could still be imprisoned for a hundred or even more years

[glossy marlin]

what if it were made of different, weirder, harder to measure matter. or if god was just a lens you analyze some parts of the world through and you imagine it feeling pain.

[frozen narwhal]

And that makes god no different from humans then because that’s anthropomorphism

For god can’t be like what he has made

[analog loom]

you can imagine it like that, but the most important question is it real? real meaning corresponding to the real world like can you prove that it exists? important in my sense assumes that you are tracking truthfulness in contrast to being like a pragmatist(believeing something just because it helps you)

and btw where can i get help in some pre-algebra topics is it in pre algebra channel?

or help?

[dreamy crag]

The channel for general help, a help channel for specific questions

[vapid tulip]

best way to study maths for jee?(dropper)

[dreamy crag]

https://youtu.be/Wmi_6D6vwBQ?si=Fl9EgaKPSgAcTf_n daily reminder to watch Jacob geller

[spice grotto]

Jacob geller my goat

[gusty pelican]

it would likely you from you?

[glossy marlin]

fixed it

the jaunt and the long dream are sorta about that question iirc

[dreamy crag]

Truuuu

[stiff kelp]

Can i set this reminder for tomorrow?

[dreamy crag]

there is a reminder command on this server

[stiff kelp]

Wait, really? I was just joking around

[dreamy crag]

yeah its a thing, dont know how it works tho

[rocky shuttle]

.remindme 1 min

[quasi jetty]

Created reminder #serious-discussion message for <t:1778871703:f>

[stiff kelp]

And what does it remind you of?

[rocky shuttle]

i forgot

[stiff kelp]

[quasi jetty]

@rocky shuttle asked to be reminded <t:1778871643:R>,

[stiff kelp]

Oh, so it doesn't work for this i suppose

[rocky shuttle]

thanks, now i remember

[stiff kelp]

And how do I specify what do i want to be reminded of?

[rocky shuttle]

.remindme 5 seconds to tell troth_follower that only certain roles allow you to set reminders

[quasi jetty]

Created reminder to tell troth_follower that only certain roles allow you to set reminders (#serious-discussion message) for <t:1778872033:f>

[quasi jetty]

@rocky shuttle asked to be reminded <t:1778872027:R>, to tell troth_follower that only certain roles allow you to set reminders

[stiff kelp]

Wait, that's true??

[undone imp]

Ye I was jk

[stiff kelp]

.remindme 1 second anything

I see that i won't be looking at that video it seems

[undone imp]

Bot shit posting in sirius discussion

[stiff kelp]

Sirius Black

[stiff kelp]

Follow me Harry lol

[stiff kelp]

@undone imp is your pfp the instant death ability guy?

[soft pivot]

Hi, I’m Wassay. I’m looking to make international friends for cultural exchange and casual conversation. I speak English, Urdu, German, Arabic, and Persian, and I’d love to connect with people from different countries to learn about their culture and improve language skills together.”
💖🥀

[gusty pelican]

..... I guess hello then, but this is the math server .... so do you want to talk about maths or something?

[inland raft]

bro forgot the delete the " at the end from the ChatGPT response

rip

[dreamy crag]

dont repeate messages if no one replies, it maeks you seem desperate

also this is not the place, this is for discussing

im actualy fucking furious, natalie lied about our final for bio being done, so we are getting a 10 point deduction for late work

and i dont get to relax over the weekend

[stiff kelp]

😭

Petty revenge? You ready?

[dreamy crag]

i kinda cant tho

shes a headmate, not a diferent person

so i just have to deal with it

[stiff kelp]

Headmate?

[dreamy crag]

im part of a system. bunch of diferent people in one head

[neon whale]

Hello guys

[stiff kelp]

Split personality disorder?

[dreamy crag]

outdated term, its called disosiative identity disorder

[stiff kelp]

Split sounds easier to remember

[dreamy crag]

yes but its wrong and missleading and gives a lot of bad impressions, so its generaly not used

[stiff kelp]

How come

[dreamy crag]

plus a lot of systems find it rude

[dreamy crag]

its kinda hard to explain, but basicaly refering to alters as "personalities" gives a lot of baggage to the disorder, and so should generaly be avoided

[neon whale]

So

[stiff kelp]

How come, how does a person with that think about those?

[dreamy crag]

similar to using the term "transexual"

[dreamy crag]

they bascialy act as entirely diferent people

i have no control over them and visa versa

[stiff kelp]

Du wisst deutsch?

[neon whale]

I'm not, but I understand a bit

[stiff kelp]

So a personality why wouldn't be fitting, i don't get it

[stiff kelp]

I see, you prefer espanol?

[dreamy crag]

personality implies that its the same person just acting diferent, when its not

[glossy marlin]

it´s about a dozen different disorders plus everything that isn´t disordered, and talking about personalities would reduce entire people to just a handful of obvious behaviors (or discredit it entirely), which doesn´t even work for neurotypical people

[neon whale]

Yes, I'm not talking in my first language, I can write and read in English but I'm not that fluent

[stiff kelp]

But how come labeling in a way that seems usual causes such issues, i genuinely don't understand this

[dreamy crag]

its just a bad, outdated term, that peopl,e shouldnt use

[dreamy crag]

because people will asume things and then do things that cause harm to the system because of faulty belifes

[stiff kelp]

I see, no worries though

This seems very vague to me, also what system are we talking about

[dreamy crag]

systems are people who have DID*

*yes i know this isnt entirely acurate but its good enough for someone just learning

[stiff kelp]

But it has nothing to do with computer systems?

[dreamy crag]

??? more than one thing can be called a word

[stiff kelp]

Alright, just thought i would ask. Tbh i still can't exactly i understand how you guys interpret this, because i see it differently (i though don't have much experience with this), which might be for the better or the worse

[dreamy crag]

wdym "interpret"?

[stiff kelp]

Like how does this look to you

[dreamy crag]

how does what look

[stiff kelp]

The disorder

[dreamy crag]

???

i do not understand what you are saying

[neon whale]

Uh, yes I don't understand a bit too

[stiff kelp]

Like that's how you experience it internally, but how it looks externally might be different

[dreamy crag]

to others it may look like "personalities" i guess, if ur dumb, but they are just entirely diferent people in the same body

[stiff kelp]

I will say, that I'm fairly confident in my English (unless we go for pretty advanced conversations and stuff), but this somewhat buffles me too

[neon whale]

But, don't all people have one unique personality?

[dreamy crag]

yes

[neon whale]

So calling it "personalities" would be the same as calling it "people" in this case, right?

[dreamy crag]

no?

[neon whale]

Ok

[dreamy crag]

calling people "personalities" is rude and dismisive

[glossy marlin]

the state of being (plurality) and several related disorders?
there´s a lot of variation, and some of it is incredibly difficult to put into words.
in most cases, there are several different people. they may or may not act differently, identify differently, have different memories, etc., so called switches can cause headaches or some forms of amnesia, etc.
some systems are median systems, meaning alters are not as distinct iirc.
some systems are monoconcious, some polyconcious.

[stiff kelp]

Man, i think that we won't achieve common ground either way with this topic

[dreamy crag]

its not fidning common ground, its just that you do not understand what i am saying

[stiff kelp]

And vice-versa

[dreamy crag]

maybe yeah

[neon whale]

I think so

[stiff kelp]

How about we go back to eternal suffer from math?

[dreamy crag]

thank you

[neon whale]

Good research

[glossy marlin]

most bodies seem to house one person, and most people seem to have one personality (unless you count emotions separately, in that case most people have a consistent range)
reducing the entirety of a person´s experiences to how they phrase things does not allow you to actually capture all those experiences, whether that person is a member of a system or not.

[neon whale]

Ok, so can't I understand?

[dreamy crag]

also "multiple personality disorder" makes it sound like a personality disorder, when its not, its a disosiative disorder

[neon whale]

Thanks

[magic python]

Oh are we talking about the term that has been phased out in many places?

[dreamy crag]

yes

[magic python]

Ah, glad to know my comprehension is half-decent

[dreamy crag]

also, even if you dont understand the term, just use DID over MPD, please

i do bite

[neon whale]

🟡

[dreamy crag]

its used like a slur, just like "transexual" and other now discarded medical terms, like the r slur

its quite rude

[magic python]

Oh god that first one is a slur now???

Like I get it got poisoned to hell

[dreamy crag]

not an actual slur, but its used like a slur, and to me and many other systems, it feels like one

[magic python]

Fair

[neon whale]

So it isn't

[magic python]

Heyyyyy can I give an analogy?

[dreamy crag]

it isnt a slur but it is used very similar to a slur, so dont use it

[neon whale]

Ok

[magic python]

Aw I guess that analogy won't see the light of day then

[dreamy crag]

gimmie it so i can use it in future

ur rlly good at analogies

[neon whale]

But, don't "autistic" would be one?

[dreamy crag]

it can be, but much less bad, and while it can be used as a slur, its much less of one

[magic python]

The term "female" is used by incels in a way to degrade women. Just because it isn't a slur, doesn't mean the term is good.

[dreamy crag]

kinda... but female has its place, mpd doesnt

[magic python]

It's used to distance them from humans

[dreamy crag]

ture

[magic python]

I don't know enough poisoned terms unfortunately, without finding a random slur

[glossy marlin]

which coffee a person orders and how they ask for it doesn´t tell you how they remember their parents, which school they remember going to, etc.
referring to plurality as "split personality disorder" or "multiple personality disorder" makes a similar sort of reduction (a person, their memories, how they experience things -> what you see a person do) and ignores non-disordered plurality.

[magic python]

And I am not going to compare that to the slurs I know since either they never were normal or are being reclaimed, whereas MPD I believe was what medically it used to get called unfortunately

[glossy marlin]

-# it´s also associated with all the nonsense about "biologically male"...

[magic python]

Yeah I didn't want to go into the terms male and female in their transphobic angles though...

[neon whale]

I get it

[magic python]

But yeah they very much have been used to seperate trans people

Words change meanings, yay

[dreamy crag]

is it weird that i use the term male for myself? like i say i am a woman who is male /genq

i feel like that makes sense, but idk

[magic python]

I mean it's not an issue to exactly call yourself it, just so long as you don't call others it without them being fine, as its poisoned

[dreamy crag]

yeah ik dw

[magic python]

Like yeah, "a woman who is a male" is totally fine to refer to yourself as

[dreamy crag]

well i actualy refer to myself as a slur that i dont think i can say here but thats besides the point

[magic python]

(Though this doesn't really say much about how good it is to say, considering I'd also call it fine to call yourself slurs...)

[dreamy crag]

its a fun word :3

[neon whale]

It is objective

[dreamy crag]

something something kenny saying the f slur like 15 times in autnie diaries is fine actualy its art

[magic python]

Oh yay do we get a sex discussion? What's male and female

[dreamy crag]

infirior

[neon whale]

Eeheheh

[magic python]

[magic python]

I'm going to punch you through this screen if you place them on chromosomes /lh

XX male walks in

[neon whale]

What defines me as a male?

[magic python]

You identifying as such

That's all gender really is in a simplistic sense

Sex is uh whatever the fuck the doctors do

[dreamy crag]

ok so i have Aromatase Excess Syndrome which means while i would say we are male, we also have very high amounts of estrogen, or in other words "biologicaly a femboy" /hj

[dreamy crag]

sex is what i do with ur mom actualy sorry

[neon whale]

Ok

[magic python]

[dreamy crag]

its to easy im sorry mods

[magic python]

I totally expected that it's fine

[neon whale]

I think you did it to yourself

[dreamy crag]

wtf??? i was born this way

[magic python]

Honestly androgynous bodies are so great to have icl

So useful

[dreamy crag]

especialy when ur a system or non binary

[magic python]

Or being denied healthcare is another great one

It's easier to mold a body that doesn't look like one or the other yet

[dreamy crag]

im $\frac{15}{24}$ non binary

[fathom swallow]

pinkishnova cgt queen

[magic python]

What is 0 and what is 1

[dreamy crag]

wdym?

[magic python]

Forced through puberty

[dreamy crag]

{|} and {{|}|}

[long orchid]

what does it mean to be a system

[dreamy crag]

oh :<

[magic python]

... i expected this.... why did I ask /lh

[dreamy crag]

multiple people one brain (basicaly)

[long orchid]

so like, did?

[magic python]

Oh no it's fine, I somehow don't have to do this I think

[dreamy crag]

exactly! people with DID are systems

[long orchid]

i see

isn't did a bad thing though /gen

[dreamy crag]

abso-fucking-lutly

[long orchid]

ahhh okay

[dreamy crag]

i hate it i hate it i hate it it sucks so god damn much get me the fuck out

[neon whale]

Ok, chat went wild

[glossy marlin]

-# "femboy" is one of very few words that bother me in almost every context...

[long orchid]

i wonder how one helps people with it

[neon whale]

Me too

[magic python]

Is it a choice to do the main thing to "deal" with a mental disorder/condition/disabily/thingamajig

[dreamy crag]

wait why? /genq

[glossy marlin]

those with DID are systems, but systems don´t always have DID

[magic python]

Sexualized like crazy?

[neon whale]

Yes

[dreamy crag]

lots of therapy, at least with DID, its truama based, so you focus on healing from that trauma, and it goes away

[long orchid]

ohhh

[magic python]

I know what happens, I was asking if that's what they meant mate

[raw horizon]

Damn you aren't open minded

[glossy marlin]

-# never forget bridget
sexualized, used against trans women...
it &// some other words have a history going back more than a century

[dreamy crag]

ohhhh fair actualy

[long orchid]

so how else can one be a system

[long orchid]

godspeed ❤️

[magic python]

Asking since I get told being trans is a choice so much and I agree with some points people brought up kinda

The choice is misery or a small chance at maybe sorta having any happiness

[neon whale]

But that was my head, in that case, so, ignore that words

[glossy marlin]

OSDD-1a, OSDD-1b, OSDD-2, ..., a bunch of other disorders, all the ways to be a non-disordered system...

[dreamy crag]

i thought u ment like u didnt like femboys or something? like as people, and i was very confused

[dreamy crag]

its a lot of time and effort, but hopefuly it will be worth it

[long orchid]

how do non disordered systems work

[magic python]

Happiness is a nice choice to pick I think

[glossy marlin]

I also remember that some streamers in gnc spaces came out as transfem and got harrassed because of that...
it´s a simple term with a horrible history and complicated community

[dreamy crag]

better. this is barely a joke. if you are a system not through trauma, most of the bad parts of DID go away, so its more just weird to live with

[neon whale]

Ok

Now we are talking again about systems

[long orchid]

no like, how does that happen psychologically

wrong one

[neon whale]

Goodbye chat, it was good to be with you

👋

[magic python]

Wait does tulpamancy or whatever it was called (can't remember the terms rn...) count as non-disordered plurality

[dreamy crag]

basicaly you are just born with it

[long orchid]

like how does it develop, what's it like in the first person, how common is it

[glossy marlin]

better.
well, sometimes plurality is non-disordered but there´s another thing that is disordered... non-disordered plurality means that plurality itself is causing little to no issues.

[glossy marlin]

it counts as endogenic plurality afaik. sometimes it´s non-disordered, sometimes it is disordered.

[magic python]

Oh I forgot endogenic was a term

[dreamy crag]

i dont think we know how plurality happens in non traumagenic ways

[magic python]

God i need to like read stuff again, despite the not so nice memories associated with the time I was learning

[dreamy crag]

https://pluralpedia.org/w/Main_Page good place!

this helped me a ton actualy

[magic python]

gahhhh not the exact site I was reading at that time /lh

[glossy marlin]

sometimes people are born with it, sometimes people make themselves plural, sometimes a funny gremlin walks into a person´s head, idk if we even understand some of the aspects of presentation or how exactly trauma can lead to it...

[dreamy crag]

oh sorry

[magic python]

Noooo it's fine that's why I use /lh there

[dreamy crag]

i mean from a neuroscience persepecive

[long orchid]

this still feels wild to me lol

[magic python]

What is a bit of discomfort in the end anyways

[dreamy crag]

like we know why it happens but not how it happens

[dreamy crag]

thats fair, its a weird thing

[glossy marlin]

yeah, that´s sorta what I meant. we have no clue how, and we don´t understand every little bit of why
-# what is conciousness and how are some systems polyconcious

[magic python]

Also your mind can gaslight you into thinking it's that but it isn't like at all

[dreamy crag]

it has some very interesting things

[long orchid]

this still feels like severe identity disturbance to me. but i don't wanna insult anyone

[dreamy crag]

im planning to become a neuroscientist of some sort when i grow up :3

[long orchid]

like if you're happy i give z e r o fucks

[magic python]

And it can just like do weird stuff sometimes

[dreamy crag]

i dont know what this actualy means but ok

[stray fox]

Trans talks?

[dreamy crag]

we can have one if wanted

[long orchid]

like disordered perception of one's own identity haha

again I'm very new to this so maybe my mind is jumping to things

[dreamy crag]

hmm... no

[magic python]

I love it when the mind comes up with a mystery person for no reason but for laughs

[glossy marlin]

sometimes it comes from that. but some systems understand themselves much better, and like I said, sometimes it´s ordered

[dreamy crag]

this is kinda reductive, but at least in my experience, this doesnt feels like the right way to phrase it

[long orchid]

at the end of the day. if you're happy I'm happy for you. and I'll refer to you however you want

interesting question

[glossy marlin]

-# I want to be a bit of everything but I don´t have any plans

[long orchid]

if a system votes in an election: which one of you votes

[magic python]

Honestly I do wonder why the mind can go so hard against what someone thinks they want, thatd be interesting to know

[stray fox]

I just saw the thing from before

[glossy marlin]

either the one fronting, or there´s an internal vote on what the external vote should be

[dreamy crag]

depends. we do an internal vote and whoever wins that gets the vote

[stray fox]

Although I’m sure there is a number of interesting trans related discussions

[long orchid]

wait okay how do i refer to you??

plural they?

[magic python]

I have a list of rights taken away in some parts of the world from us if that'll suffice :3

[dreamy crag]

PinkishNova or The Honeycomb Tiling colectively, the names indecated from our status individualy.
stick to they/them for colective pronouns, for individuals, visit the doc (that is still in the works)

i should make a website

[long orchid]

ah I'll just ask individually

[stray fox]

Could be interesting, if you want

[dreamy crag]

that would be a good project for over the summer

[glossy marlin]

-# plural systems usually use plural they, want you to ask if you don´t know who´s fronting, or have a "singletsona" for various reasons and purposes

[long orchid]

i would rather not memorize a document for a stranger sorry

[dreamy crag]

exactly

[long orchid]

i do wish you the best though

[dreamy crag]

yeah fair, i made it mainly for my (now ex) partners

[magic python]

Alright let me paste it, asterisks mean technically broken and or I don't know for sure if it counts enough :3

[dreamy crag]

thank you

[magic python]

The main ones by the article number in the Declaration:

2. (This discrimination is based on them being trans, violating this one)

3. (In multiple places trans people get the death penalty or some other form of punishment, not really safe I won't lie...)

4. (Transgender people were and still are ||trafficked|| heavily, though the most major case being ||Jeffery Epstien|| (tw: abuse+SA))

5. (Basically the same as 4, but degrading punishment is also sort of normalized in some places, so...)

6. (Do I even need to explain how trans people both now and historically in many places weren't recognized as people..?)

7. (Transgender people don't get equal help with things violating 4 and at least anecdotally are discriminated against with protection)

9*. ("Trump Administration Opens the Door for ICE to Target Anyone Suspected of Being Trans" is a real headline, asterisk as the headline could be called misleading.)

16. (Same as gay people both now and in the past, marriage is not exactly the easiest... plus, forced marriage is probably a thing based on 4.)

17. (Look up the definition of transphobia)

18. (Oh look! Rebranded 18)

23*. (Gender discrimination in the workforce exists, and minorities are discriminated against as well, so one can infer transgender being a minority they get discrimination here)

25*. (If we count mental health as well-being, transgender people often get denied or put through year long processes trying to "force them to be cis again" and this is not good mentally, but well-being is ambiguous, so not exactly 100% breaking this)

26*. (Last time I heard, minorities still get discrimination in education in some places, though I don't know for sure if trans people do, I can only assume this one)

[stray fox]

Mk

[magic python]

27*. (Transgender people get hate despite the countless studies showing how safe it is, how little it is regretted, and so on, but tend to get "pushed out" from what I know, though this may not directly violate this)

30*. (Government's denying trans rights, though I guess they don't twist these rights to do it)

[long orchid]

how old are y'all? you're not any less valid if you're like 14 tbc I'm not taking that angle

if you wanna share ^^

[magic python]

Oh god that is ten without asterisks did I mess up

[long orchid]

(im 20)

[magic python]

Oh no that seems right

[long orchid]

if you're wondering why I'm asking it's because it's a new thing to me. so I'm wondering if my generation has passed this by

like, kinda how trans people were either vilified or ignored a while back

[dreamy crag]

decleration of independance or am i being stupid?

[stray fox]

What do you mean in 27?

[magic python]

Universal Declaration of Human Rights iirc

[dreamy crag]

oh i am stupid

[dreamy crag]

14... lol

[long orchid]

oh wow

[magic python]

Let me double check the article number, i forgot where exactly i was going without it infront of me

[glossy marlin]

I think the generations before you had the possession scare and then it just rarely came up

[long orchid]

lots ahead of you

[stray fox]

20 year olds are some of the most aware, I think Gen Z has been really up into the whole lgbt thing

[dreamy crag]

they invented gay when obama was elected /j /basicalySomethingMyDadSaid

[stray fox]

Obama? The king of black people ? /j

[magic python]

27 is about "everyone having the right to freely participate in the community" and also "the right to the protection of moral and material interests resulting from scientific, literary, or artistic production of which they are the author"

Trans people get pushed out of spaces in many places (especially the ones with legal punishment), and I believe I remember hearing of transphobia in art and literature.

Oh no that first point is freely participate in sharing scientific discovery

That's why I brought up how it's proven safe

[stray fox]

Car.. where does this come from by the way?

[magic python]

So many people completely disregard this

[stray fox]

What does it mean proven safe by the way

[magic python]

27 is a technicality, basically anecdotal thongs that I'm not sure actually break it. So 27 is probably kept

[frosty zephyr]

Guys

Relax

It’s just math

[glossy marlin]

-# the possession scare was a few years around the 80s where christians saw overt plural systems "act unlike themselves" and said they may be possessed by the devil iirc

[magic python]

Hormone blockers, hormones, and surgeries aren't all too dangerous, especially blockers and hormones to my knowledge.

In fact I believe blockers have really no serious long term risks (though taking them for long times can cause some not so good things...)

[glossy marlin]

"general discussion of appropriate serious/heavy topics, such as religion or politics. no particular focus on mathematics"
topic clearly isn´t maths

[magic python]

I'd argue the medical system makes them more dangerous with shitty doses but I only have one piece of evidence on them being stupid so oh well

That reminds me, I need papers on the effectiveness of monotherapy to justify upping the one

Okay yeah 27 and 30 are more iffy than the others

[glossy marlin]

if you go into one of the fabled transfem spaces or look at some of the resources you can find a couple thousand reports from patients saying the medical system sucks in terms of wait times and doses...

[magic python]

Yeah the entire process just sounds like a horribly hidden way to attempt to detransition you by making you give up and feel useless...

[frosty zephyr]

I didn’t see that

I have no idea what u guys r talking bout
Js joined

[magic python]

This is a serious discussion channel for heavier topics, I'd recommend starting in #chill or #discussion rather than here

[glossy marlin]

-# also some of the studies / arguments are stupid. like "people get depressed when they don´t have sex hormones" (when they´re deliberately underdosed or denied healthcare) we expected that. "bone mineral density loss" we know about that, that happens post menopause or such when hormones are low. "irreversible changes" there are also irreversible changes during cis people´s puberties.

[magic python]

"Irreversible changes" is so stupid because like a majority of the ones people complain about are literally ones that can be fixed with the gender affirming care we are asking for like come on

"Oh but you'll have a chest which you can't reverse"

Top surgery.

"Oh but fat redistributes"

It can redistribute again

"Oh but hair growth"

... electrolysis, laser, waxxing...

"Nooo surgery is irreversible"

The main irreversible thing these people would know of is the fertility issues.

You can just get the opposite surgery for it (unless you go 0-depth I think...)

[dreamy crag]

all can be fixed with a laser actualy /j

[glossy marlin]

there´s one change I know of that can´t be reversed... voices dropping from androgens

[magic python]

But the fat won't move back...

[dreamy crag]

get a stronger laser

[magic python]

But it can be dealt with supposedly :3

[dreamy crag]

cant have a low voice if you dont have a throat!

idk, i just like lasers in general

[magic python]

Plus most people who say this are thinking of feminization procedures, I'm not sure if E has anything not reversible like that

Masculinizing certainly is different and I know less about it outside of how the voice dropping is really hard to go back on

If we didn't stereotype voices, this wouldn't even be the biggest issue

[glossy marlin]

I know of uh... that one bone shaving surgery. and basically removing some muscles to lift everything, that one´s irreversible. can´t do anything about pitch or vocal weight.
there´s voice training to very slowly learn to conciously offset that.

[magic python]

(Yes I know many people don't want the voice for others but want it for themselves)

[glossy marlin]

whether HRT can de-masculinize voices isn´t studied very well (because of criminally low doses and insufficient timeframes and sample sizes)

[stray fox]

There are risks to blockers

[magic python]

Bone shaving surgery? Is that the one to fix facial structure?

I don't know much about that one and I kinda doubt people calling trans care irreversible do... but yeah, I suppose some smaller things are irreversible, just not the 20 things called irreversible...

[magic python]

I know that.

But there are also risks to not having them.

[stray fox]

Most of the things are irreversible

[glossy marlin]

there are the ffs surgeries but there´s also a procedure to shave a bit off the adam´s apple.

[stray fox]

Like what? Besides mental health?

[magic python]

Oh that sounds uncomfortable

[magic python]

"Besides mental health"

Alright, scars :3

[stray fox]

Interesting, medical is amazing

[magic python]

And infections

[stray fox]

I mean, to be fair not every trans person self harms

[magic python]

To be fair, not every trans person wants care either

[glossy marlin]

most things are reversible, if not by going off HRT they´re reversible through surgery, except voices dropping (which is a reason for transfem people to start HRT early)

[magic python]

I'm saying there can be risks to not taking the care if you need it

[stray fox]

I’m not sure if I’d call that reversible

[magic python]

So what if my liver gets damaged and I get tumors, I'll be alive

[stray fox]

There are HRT effects for both sexes that cannot be reversed

[magic python]

That's literally what I meant by reversible earlier, that's what I said...

[stray fox]

Good luck car-

[magic python]

The whole "Trans care is irreversible and as such should be banned for minors" thing is inherently flawed anyways.

[glossy marlin]

I´ve heard like 80% consider suicide and 40% attempt it. the studies are a bit over a decade old though, and we don´t know how many trans people die before figuring it out or lie about it.

[magic python]

Antidepressants have lots of horrible side effects as well

I got a surgery that can't be reversed before even being allowed hormones to fix myself

[stray fox]

Well, I also think that the ones more open about being trans are also the ones with worse mental health, although I don’t have anything to back that up

[magic python]

That surgery was life saving though, but so can these ones for some

[glossy marlin]

there are also effects of puberty for "both" (it´s not binary) "sexes" that can´t be undone without surgery. and they kill some trans people.

[stray fox]

Yeah, I’ve heard the argument

[glossy marlin]

afaik they have much worse and more common side effects

[magic python]

Just because trans healthcare changes the body and has side effects doesn't make it not healthcare

[stray fox]

I’m aware

[magic python]

Eh both can cause depression so that's enough for my analogy purposes :3

[glossy marlin]

-# how about the ones that would get anything from yelled at to kicked out to killed if they came out?
-# and does every person thinking about self-harm or suicide, or who attempted either, admit it?

[magic python]

"Oh but what if the healthcare makes them hate themselves more, what if they regret it, that's why we should ban it!"

[Insert antidepressants causing depression] [insert surgeries with higher regret rates] [insert tattoos]

[stray fox]

Clearly there are issues with reporting in (nearly) every medical study

[magic python]

The side effects are the least of my issues to be honest, all the ones I've found are rather minor (for CPA and estradiol, not surgeries and other hormones and blockers)

Surgeries I've heard some things recently that made me question if I should think again, but eh no pain no gain or whatever they say

[glossy marlin]

harry potter tattoos have an insanely high regret rate. HRT and other gender affirming care have a 1-2% "regret" rate, including the ~99% from external causes (mostly discrimination) and not acknowledging some don´t actually regret it or go on to retransition

[stray fox]

CPA can have harmful effects in certain cases

[magic python]

... I know that

[stray fox]

Going off hormones can also cause issues

[magic python]

My doctor apparently didn't though

[stray fox]

Oh, what do you mean?

Your doctor thought CPA has no possible harmful effects?

[glossy marlin]

it sometimes has side effects like liver damage or benign prolactinomas, at doses a dozen times higher than we actually need, over long timeframes...

[stark trench]

i mean basically the only thing worth looking at is: will you likely benefit from HRT?

the answer for almost all folk seeking HRT is yes

[magic python]

"Oh yeah let's give this person 75mg CPA because uh hormone blockers are fine with give. No you can't up your estrogen that's crazy." (The last part slightly exaggerated)

[glossy marlin]

iirc the doctor went to like 75mg when the usual dose is 6.25

[magic python]

And told me if I needed 100 I could just call