serious-discussion

[pearl sedge]

i love maths like it is literally the only thng i do in my free time. sadly, im lonely bcs of this and yet maths is still the BEST

[dim shore]

Hey guys I’ve been doing stewart’s precalculus for some time now but I still get tons of wrong there and that in the Application section for the exercises and the discuss prove and write stuff.. but for the normal exercises like whats the value of 5 squared which is 25 I always get all of them right! Is this a normal thing? How do I fix this so I can become better at application exercises

[umbral ocean]

Yeah. We should have these discussions separate from the philosophical discussions of capitalism and socialism.

[dreamy sable]

pretty much the only thing you can do is to "join the other side", I don't think capitalism is going away soon, unless theres massive unemployment to the point that most people just don't have money to buy stuff, then companies would be making products for who? They rely on people having money to buy their stuff, and people get money by working. No jobs, no people buying stuff, no companies. Seems to fall apart if you don't resort to something like UBI.

only buyers would be investors and land owners

[devout cliff]

Economics is one of the most rigorous fields of the social sciences, modern economics is primarily empirical and driven by data. We have over a century of decent data and over a half century of very good data from around the world. Economists preference for market driven solutions is driven by what the data shows and not the inverse of imposing an ideology on the data. We have ways to quantify inefficiency in markets, the effects of policies impeding competitiveness or integrating irrationality into models. The criticisms so far just show a very surface level understanding of what advanced quantitative economic modeling does. They aren’t making the naive assumptions asserted above

DARPAs recent SCORE study was interesting, among the social sciences economics was among the most rigorous of fields with roughly 72% of their studies passing replication compared to psychology, sociology, education with less than half of their studies passing replication.

If we find the argument convincing that sometimes professionals in the social sciences make predictions that turn out to be incorrect or believe the field shows a lack of rigor, are you prepared to throw out psychology and sociology with it?

I kind of personally think it’s ridiculous to hand wave away branches of study because they’re politically inconvenient. COVID vaccine skeptics were using the same argument pointing out times the medical field was wrong or its struggles to accurately construct forward predictive models. It’s nonsense and Socialists should probably use better reasoning than anti vaxxers

[limpid rampart]

If math is all you have, what are you without it?

[karmic goblet]

What is the definition of "rigor" and "rigorous" here?

It doesn't seem to correspond to mathematical rigor or being mathematically rigorous.

If economics purports to be a science, the standard should perhaps it should be scientific and not mathematically rigorous, or arguing from axioms?

"Rigor" certainly shouldn't be conflated with reproducible.

[sand aurora]

Guys what's it called to produce something again

[devout cliff]

Rigor here is analyzing the publications of various domains for reproducibility, robustness and replicability

The study I’m referring to checked to see if publications were reproducible, if the studies results were dependent on the analytic choices of the researchers or could be reached using the same dataset but different techniques and then if the models proposed in the papers worked on new data. Economics came out at 72% while other fields like psychology, sociology and education didn’t even really crack 50%

I’m not saying psychology is quackery and easily dismissed, rather I’m saying the reasoning used to dismiss economics if employed consistently would eliminate practically all the social sciences as economics was among the best fields in terms of rigor

[bright hill]

did you seriously try to ping 330k people

I don't even think that's humanly conceivable

[brave coral]

be seriosu

anyone wanna do math

with the goat

[lime iris]

Mee

[burnt ledge]

Yea

Oh whoops i was scrolled up. My bad serioussy

[devout cliff]

No this was a US government program testing reproducibility, robustness and replicability of published studies that passed peer review

DARPA is basically the defense departments advanced research and development wing, they were looking to see if they could trust the results of these studies and what impact the lack of rigor in these fields would have for defense development

An overview of the program

https://www.cos.io/score

In some sense yeah 😂

It’s the astronauts standing behind each other holding a gun meme

[glossy marlin]

-# and who´s checking the one checking the checker

[vale falcon]

Segmentation fault

[terse crypt]

What is more important igcse or SAT

[brittle jasper]

You won't segfault these days. You'll just run out of tokens

[brittle jasper]

Your bank account's more important

[terse crypt]

How expensive is it

[brittle jasper]

I don't know, but you need to make money

[scenic moss]

hi

i need help

[inland raft]

!help

[quasi jetty]

To ask for mathematics help on this server, please open your own help channel or help thread. See #❓how-to-get-help for instructions.

[patent yacht]

Agrred

[misty topaz]

we live in a capitalist meritocracy

[misty topaz]

tho study is a worhty pursuit, society values capitalists or ppl who want to make financial profit

[cunning shell]

Ok so I just finished 3 units math and I getting into sequences

[glossy marlin]

-# job requirements: 5 years of experience with a piece of software that has existed for two years, phd, meet beauty standards
-# phd: costs a couple hundred thousand bucks in some places

[cunning shell]

how the hell do u deduce a summation notion for a sequence

I've watched professor Dave's vid on this but it's not helpful like at all

[stiff kelp]

Yeah, problem solving sounds like the least surreal option

How or why

Is it though? I personally struggle with some stuff and don't find it fun, it is also not practical which doesn't help your case imo

[cunning shell]

alr so I'm not dumb🙏

[stiff kelp]

You think so?

[patent ravine]

Guys 15 mins is done can somebody pls help me I also pinged helpers but Noone help me

[stiff kelp]

Yep

[graceful walrus]

depends on the type of math you do

and how intuitive it is (heavily dependent on how one's brain works)

[stiff kelp]

I guess, but it can be improved

For me personally math wasn't intuitive, but programming for example seems much more intuitive

[graceful walrus]

like what kind of math isn't intutive for you btw

[stiff kelp]

Which parts are practical?

[stiff kelp]

Well what i can say is, that i don't understand how equations are put together or how some equations look visually. Tbh i can't like say parts, because it's not as much of a part problem than lack of information maybe? I would say that algebra is usually my stongside

[true zinc]

Yes I do

[steel depot]

Not intending being inflammatory but what do you all think of pirated educational content? Is it morally justifiable?

[graceful walrus]

well
we need to know what's immoral about this "piracy"

[burnt ledge]

I think it is fine

[graceful walrus]

to know if it can be exempted for educational stuff

[stiff kelp]

How come?

[steel depot]

I do think textbooks are overpriced and educational materials should ideally be free, but things are not that simple always.

I personally don’t think it’s immoral
Idk wbu yall

[true zinc]

Autism special interest and also just patterns are very nice, I really like differential and algebraic geometry and theory of computation

[stiff kelp]

I see, but how useful are those patterns practically speaking?

[graceful walrus]

does math need to be useful?

a lot of it is intellectual sport

[stiff kelp]

I see, so you go the algebraic way all the way

[stiff kelp]

It does

[steel depot]

Mathematics as with other sciences is very necessary to our technology
Nearly every sector broadly or specifically uses mathematical methods or utilities that were developed using mathematics methods

But ive seen people here only praising mathematics for being beautiful, i think philosophy is equally as beautiful too.

[graceful walrus]

is ≠ needs to be

[stiff kelp]

Well it definitely helped a lot and we have software/ inventions that are based on heavy math, but it seems to be limited on a very few people that actually work with it or understand it

[steel galleon]

Anyone quite familiar with the double pendulum?

I have a question to ask about Lissajous curves

[stiff kelp]

I see, as a person of both, were there instances where you reached a different conclusion or thought process, because you used your math knowledge?

[stiff kelp]

?

[verbal quest]

the vast majority of people here will be fine with it
but it's not allowed on the server per discord ToS

[stiff kelp]

I meant more advanced stuff, not simple stuff that are used by people everyday. Touches philosophy?

[graceful walrus]

not all math is necessarily useful

[steel depot]

Yes. Absolutely

Informally, and formally i have gained some useful knowledge
Now the application of mathematical knowledge depends on the problem, some problems require different methods and approaches, but generally in tasks that require near domain knowledge Ive noticed math is very helpful.

[stiff kelp]

I would say math is useful, but people have to find a use for it and it will be understood by a few only (relatively to most people speaking)

[stiff kelp]

Hm interesting

Especially when you mess up and find a new result that isn't supposed to be there lol

[glossy marlin]

pirates look cool :3

[steel depot]

And also
This is a common misunderstanding in discourse, that mathematics is about studying one class of objects or things, or has a set of words that accurately define it,
Mathematics, as with philosophy
Has no agreed upon, universally accepted definition
There are attempts to do so, as with philosophy
But ultimately the fields are more spacious than how much we say they are.

[stiff kelp]

I see, i also think that as humans we all have an idea about these, so a definition is not needed

[glossy marlin]

-# companies suck. pirate stuff if you have (or just want) to, support the creators directly when you can if they deserve it

[stiff kelp]

Yeah, but one thing i never truly understood is that in education teachers teach you rules and ways to do stuff, give you equations etc, but doesn't prove them, like i think that if a person argues that something is his/her way then facts and reasons should be equally mentioned

[lime kayak]

If you define usefulness as something having a use in society (for example being useful to the economy), and there exists maths that are not well understood enough that they cannot effectively be used directly in this way (brcause as you said, there exists maths that are only understood by a few), then by definition there would obviously be maths that aren't useful atleast currently.

Whether it will be useful in the future or not isnt the question, but it is a pretty big claim to say that ALL maths are useful. But some maths definitely are, and there are things in mathematics that are a necessity to many things that build up our societies

[steel depot]

Well the two are related but different, empirical science can sometimes be more straightforward than mathematical research, and sometimes the other way around, and there is overlap between the two, so with any other field, but all sciences form classes of some sort

There is a formal, abstract kind of class
Which includes pure mathematics/theoretical physics
Theoretical computer science and philosophy

There is social sciences,( which can include philosophy )
Like psychology ,sociology, history etc

Then there is sciences about the empirical world, like chemistry, biology, experimental physics and what not

So all of these, form huge overlap, philosophy is often grouped or listed as a social science, but it overlaps with math and physics, and physics per se is empirical, yet overlaps with math which it isnt,
So its not as straightforward to say empirical science cannot explore what math can, because often the two overlap, and exploring a seemingly abstract problem gives insight on an empirical one.

[lime kayak]

Yeah, its easier for them to be used that way too since you get to distribute knowledge quicker

[stiff kelp]

Maybe my claim is not standing on a strong foundation but currently that's my take, basing it in past stories i heard. I definitely think that if math was approached and shared differently then people could enjoy it and maybe make more new things with the creativity that wouldn't be killed in school, that's my take

I see, tbh it sounds like a bad system at least to me, i feel like this isn't how it should be, but i can't really say how it could change for the better

[lime kayak]

Well yeah, theres certainly an issue with how much math is feared and how little of it is understood, both by the students and sometimes even the instructors. I think that's different from being useful though, but well to be fair justifying it as being useful is a good way to promote it to actually be used, if your wish was for example that there were more rigorous mathematics at school in general

By understanding maths I mean like atleast the basic concepts of maths like how mathematical logic and axiomatic systems work alongside the basic curriculums

[stiff kelp]

Tbh, i think that perhaps ai can change a lot by being personalised and being unique from person to person, because it can possibly give nonstop attention to every student that would/is helping a lot of students imo

I suppose that's true

[lime kayak]

Yeah though its still up to the students themselves to want to understand. It'd depend on what type of behavior the AI incentivices. Like most LLMs are being used to cheat more rather than for learning, and if used for learning, they're doing more harm by providing ppl with lots of misinformation since they're basically glorified search functions. But as it improves and a good clean model is made, then maybe

[stiff kelp]

This☝️

[viral creek]

right now you have to supply it your own material in order for it to be correct, I use it to make flashcards quickly, its good for that

[stiff kelp]

Yeah, it does show math slop from time to time but i like to think that one day it will be great and multilingual. But perhaps a new company that specialises in that would be faster to achieve it

[lime kayak]

Yeah its pretty nice for formatting stuff

[stiff kelp]

You do? It needs your material to be correct?

[viral creek]

Well if you want to be sure then yes, if you don't really care about it then you can just ask

There's a difference between being correct most of the time and 99,9% of the time, which supplying your own material gives it

but once again, you cant give it like a million pages and expect a single prompt answer

[stiff kelp]

Hm i see

[viral creek]

It's a tool and you gotta learn how to use it

[stiff kelp]

Yeah, sounds about right

[steel depot]

It’s not really a math thing per se, its just any subject that is cognitively demanding, challenging, and being pushed pedagogically is bound to have the same issue

[stiff kelp]

Lol

Internet handy little thing at times

[glossy marlin]

-# I feel like giving it the material might not even take it from 60% accuracy to 96% accuracy. those numbers are also per prompt and AI struggles with context windows and such...

[viral creek]

Have you used it regularly this way?

I have, and while the number I gave was an overexaggeration, I find 1 question to be weird inbetween like a 100

[glossy marlin]

I don´t use it. openAI said it´s like 60% accurate for any somewhat niche or complicated subjects and bigger models are worse, and iirc they tested that with one prompt every time, if you use it longer it will mess up more and more.
the architecture isn´t made for logic, and it´s not even all that good at things it does have a lot of info on.
people here say one of the best uses is just finding some words to look up elsewhere.

[viral creek]

Architecture isn't made for logic -> Using it for reformating existing material will not work????

[glossy marlin]

it would be faster but might not be as good as you, and you could learn by thinking while you´re reformating things, that´s kinda how reading text, doing exercises and taking notes works.

[viral creek]

If only everyone learnt from manual reformatting and copying stuff down right

I do exercises of course lol

But when I have a test and NEED flashcards I'm not gonna waste hours doing them myself

[glossy marlin]

it´s not the copying or such that makes you learn as far as we know.
it´s the thought you have to do to take notes at the rate things are said

[next schooner]

I have found LLMs pretty good for learning new things, though I think the important caveat is that I've only used it to learn things that are, in some sense, "close" to something in which i already have some expertise

[glossy marlin]

yeah, it´s fast at making them

[next schooner]

And I will say that having used LLMs pretty extensively now for a couple years, the leading reasoning models are surprisingly good at certain tasks

[stiff kelp]

Also, did anyone use ollama here before?

[verbal quest]

making the flashcards can be part of the learning/memorization too

[viral creek]

For some, and it's not for me, I have tested it

It's like you're assuming I didn't try doing a lot of stuff before ending up with a workflow that has an LLM

[verbal quest]

I'm not assuming anything
including the validity of your testing
I was just commenting

[viral creek]

I'm just so used to an absolute anti-LLM stance from many people that I get defensive sometimes 😭

[glossy marlin]

well... we had someone earlier who apparently used AI so much they didn´t know how to do a little geometry

teens are getting worse at learning and remembering some stuff

[lime kayak]

LLMs are nice for searching stuff that you cant name exactly (otherwise just search for them directly and get a better source) and formatting (given that you double check it)

[next schooner]

LLMs and AI and whatever are extremely polarizing

[viral creek]

Yeah I feel like people just pick a side and call it binary instead of a spectrum

[lime kayak]

Its always better to just read the source material or primary book for anything in terms of actually learnjng

[verbal quest]

another thing on the spectrum

[glossy marlin]

it has a lot of downsides (e.g. for the climate or communities near data centers or some businesses or if used incorrectly) and some upsides (if it´s made for the thing you´re doing and used right)

[next schooner]

I don't often see particularly nuanced takes on the subject, and while I can sympathise with both sides (albeit to varying degrees), it does make discourse about the topic kinda boring

[verbal quest]

I still can't get over the size of the proposed Utah data center
it's a scam, but still

[viral creek]

I can't wait until everything turns into a data center

[stiff kelp]

Don't worry, all hail AI

[lime kayak]

Well if you just want a quick summary that can be somewhat trusted then wikipedia or secondary sources are decent. And if you need interpretation of some hard to understand text, secondary materials are good for those as well given that the material is well attested to by people who have learned the subject. But eitherway LLMs atleast currently are really untrustworthy.

[steel depot]

Interesting

[next schooner]

Like there are some really interesting things to discuss surrounding AI and you just don't see much of that

Which is somewhat of a shame

[glossy marlin]

-# physiological and psychological impacts of infrasound or whatever

[stiff kelp]

Lool

[lime kayak]

Well people like to focus on whats directly affecting them and whats common enough to talk abt with a general audience. Which is mostly LLMs

[next schooner]

Eh, I feel like anything related to "AI" is kinda in its own category in terms of how people talk about it

[lime kayak]

For example I really think using AI for math research in the way terrence tao was suggesting, basically shotgunning proofs and having proof assistants actually verify whats correct and whats not for solving a bunch of tiny little problems, is very interesting

[stiff kelp]

Well it seems like you guys are on top of things rn, though do ping me if you need some input

https://tenor.com/view/skeletor-until-we-meet-again-goodbye-gif-7594892226715043729

[lime kayak]

But thats not really what most ppl r talking abt when AIs are mentioned , theres also nice uses of them in the sciences but the uses are rather difficult for a layman like me to grasp exactly how good it is

[next schooner]

I guess more specifically, "AI anything" as a topic of conversation seems to be far more likely to be either a hugbox or a fight to the death than any other topic within the Zeitgeist

[rapid valve]

It kills me how many leftists are against AI itself ald not the circumstances, despite being a thing that could make us work less

Like that's not a leftist take, that's just a boomer take

[next schooner]

I don't follow

[glossy marlin]

data center boosts local economy during construction, starts operation, people mysteriously get sick, anxious, depressed, sleep worse, etc., local economy may crash

[rapid valve]

So many peopel just hate ai and kinda vlame all the people who use it

Depsite the real problem not beign ai but the overpowered american companies behind it

And using ai doesn't even make them money

[glossy marlin]

I´ve heard of a CEO replacing the finance department or whatever with an AI. the AI completely made up data and basically ran the business into the ground. people suck at using it and it sucks at telling them "hey, I can´t / don´t know how to do that"

[devout cliff]

A lot of misinformation about data centers also. I grew up in a very rural county, we had more cows than people by far. When I was a teenager the controversy was windmills, a company was trying to put them in and a lot of the residents were against it

They had all sorts of nonsense claims related to the effects on birds, claiming the electrical fields they generate brings up heavy metal contaminants from the water tables etc. A lot of the anti data center rhetoric reminds me of that

[glossy marlin]

maybe a bit. but a lot of the money comes from the military or rich individuals from the right wing...

[rapid valve]

Also i think blaming randoms for not boycotting somethign is dumb

[lime kayak]

Personally I think the scary part is having AI, if controlled by only a few parties in the world, being part of daily life in the same way the internet is and many devices are these days. Its like having a body part that corporations or the government can control whenever they want.

Having actual personal AIs like locally controlled ones would be interesting, but im not really knowledgeable on how AIs work

[viral creek]

There are some open source models iirc, but the computation required to run a decent one locally is just not worth it for any single person rn

[lime kayak]

Yeah

[viral creek]

In the future it will probably get way better

[devout cliff]

The inevitable and likely already implemented AI surveillance state worries me the most. There aren’t even any political candidates you can vote for to roll it back both parties are gung ho on it. Even at the local level regardless of party you’re getting flock surveillance cameras, fusion centers, live audio surveillance, facial recognition, databases tracking license plate readers etc

[viral creek]

But who knows, corporations always win over open source in the eyes of the consumer

[lime kayak]

Space exploration increasing energy and space efficiency and having personal or family managed ai butlers

[viral creek]

Oh yeah, did you know China is also planning a moon landing? And with the delays the US program is experiencing there's a probability of China landing first

[lime kayak]

I heard a bit but i dont know the specific details. Theyve been planning these stuff since they launched that space station right?

[viral creek]

I'm not too caught up on it but it's basically going to be like a classic moon landing apollo style, while the US program is imo way too ambitious with their goals and timeline.

[devout cliff]

There’s definitely some sort of military angle to both of these programs

All of a sudden we both didn’t just decide to go to the moon

[viral creek]

China is planning 2030, US has 2028 planned, but with planned budget cuts, the lander still not existing, and overall an overly ambitious timeline im not expecting 2028 to be realistic

I also like how the chinese one isn't talked about at all in western media, but when they launch it's suddenly gonna be everywhere i bet

[viral creek]

I feel that it's more political, kind of a space race 2

[lime kayak]

Well atleast its nice that theyre motivated to be doing these stuff again. Atleast itll be nice if we dont get caught up in wars while at it...

[glossy marlin]

surveillance state? feels like it´s getting closer and closer to surveillance world

[shy mountain]

wsp

wait china is planing a moon landing

and where did you find that out

[viral creek]

in the news

[shy mountain]

oh ok

[lime kayak]

Well spreading the word of using Libre software and GNU/Linux stuff should help in somewhat fighting off the surveillance stuff. Just have to convince the masses to switch. Atleast thats for digital surveillance, for physical ones...

Also in the topic of space exploration, any colony we'd have on space may very well be set up with high surveillance before or as we're stepping foot unto it atleast if the surveillance behaviour isnt being objected against

[viral creek]

I don't believe in space habitation, space workspaces? mining? research? yes. Long term habitation? nah

Why would you ever move to a barren rock without air when you can just live on earth

Unless there is a financial incentive I don't see a reason. Tourism is possible and likely, like you go up for a week or so, but entertainment wise it's genuinely just gonna be a cruise ship

[lime kayak]

Well its pretty much scifi i suppose

[viral creek]

Yeah like moon is so close you don't need a colony with families and stuff

[glossy marlin]

-# if we ever wanna move to mars for whatever reason (e.g. earth slowly becoming uninhabitable) how are we getting a magnetic field, atmosphere, soil, all that
-# if we somehow got or found that it might be possible...

[viral creek]

Terraforming is fiction, never gonna happen

If earth starts becoming uninhabitable the most efficient option is to fix earth

Moving to space is just awful cost wise

[glossy marlin]

well, from what I´ve heard we´re already at the point where hundreds of millions of people are gonna die. millions already died because of climate change. we gotta stop harming it and start fixing it now and little is being done because some people are incredibly greedy

[thorny turret]

if you can settle and terraform mars then you might as well just do it to earth instead

[viral creek]

Good news, we started making environmental committees and stuff WITHOUT the US and China and other large players that profit from fossil fuels

[thorny turret]

wanting to settle is colonialism imo, elon has literally enough wealth and land

[viral creek]

so stuff is getting actually done now

[glossy marlin]

ah, nice
-# are we finally considering fission / fusion (at least temporarily)

[viral creek]

There is actually a fusion reactor that worked recently

its in the US and a private company though 😭

So it's gonna be interesting how that goes

[glossy marlin]

I heard about that but are other countries considering switching to fission / fusion

that would save a lot of emmissions in the whole "getting electricity" area.
-# well, there´s also the issue of efficiency with making batteries and getting materials... and people don´t like how we´ve got kids in mines in warzones for the latter...
as for other stuff, how about better engines?
funding for the projects where people plant a bunch of trees?
preserving species?
money put into research to pull stuff like CO2 and methane out of the air?

-# idk all the ideas out there but I hope they talked about most

[glossy marlin]

well, fossil fuel would be the first to meet that end, and deadliest on the way...

[unborn meteor]

the last one is so cool

[glossy marlin]

yep.
maybe some machines would work.
there´s also already research with modified plants.

[idle steppe]

Actually if u take everything into account then no it still lost energy

We havent yet had a net gain in energy from fusion, when taking into account setting everything up

[glossy marlin]

I heard about two or three teams getting more energy out than they put in.

[verbal quest]

[glossy marlin]

-# but few news sources are actually reliable...

[left mesa]

Was Herbert Hoover considered a technocrat?

[ashen marsh]

what one? commonwealth?

[viral creek]

yep

[ashen marsh]

yeah haha

they got that shit locked down

they are good people

CFS is meshed with MIT and the fusion community is incredibly collaborative

also im not sure what you mean by "worked"

theyre still putting stuff together

[devout cliff]

I don’t really see a possible transition away from fossil fuels any time soon, if you look around the room pretty much everything you can see or touch is derived from fossil fuels or use fossil fuels as feed stocks. Pretty much every material besides metal and wood is derived from petroleum, most medicines, commodity chemicals, fertilizers etc

We don’t really have alternatives even for simple things like food security and packaging. The energy challenge isn’t even the most difficult one, it’s how do we find alternatives for the secondary value added supply chain

[ashen marsh]

I think that the solution to "transitioning" away from fossil fuels is to drop what we dont need

i think that most systems in the world are overcomplicated as fuck, and we are motivated to make things overcomplicated to 'innovate' new stuff that people need to buy

we've settled on a system that only lets people eat if they tear out what works and replace it with something new

for example: why, why, do we need automatically activated sinks

[devout cliff]

They save water but I get your point in general 😂

[ashen marsh]

my point is: we cant transition to something new. there shouldnt be something new

yeah, it solves that slight problem but like- really the solution there is a reinvention if what a building should be. not the sink

its like patching the hoover dam with duct tape made of nanobots

we dont need AGI we need to give homeless people dinner

we need to resist the temptation to solve problems. capitalism is short sighted, it's only ever whats right in front of you. there are no systems that hold anyone accountable or encourage people to consider the ethics or societal impact of their invention- in fact, our system discourages it

you either solve the immediate problem at hand in the shittiest way possible or you literally go homeless

this is why ITER and fusion projects have gone nowhere for a century

we could easily solve all of the worlds issues in a week. the only thing stopping us is convincing everyone that money is a social construction

[devout cliff]

I mean I’m a capitalist so we probably won’t agree on solutions, the entire challenge right now is there isn’t an alternative viable system

[ashen marsh]

im not anything, im just a person

i dont follow any ideologies. i am my own god

systems arent real

i walked into the MIT physics department yesterday and sat down in their talks with the professors

[devout cliff]

That was probably fun

[ashen marsh]

im just some sophomore i dont even go to mit

it was

but my point is that you dont belong to anyone, you are free. when you wait in line it isnt because youre being threatened- you do it out of empathy and kindness. out of mutual respect

(i respect you, thank you for talking to me)

[[ i am not leaving lol ]]

[devout cliff]

This is a nice sentiment and we all wish the world was possible to be organized along these lines

Not sure how realistic this is but it would be nice if it was

[ashen marsh]

I mean i think it is

like any organization is either a direct, personal threat- the fear of a specific person doing something, or kindness

the idea that we need to transition to a new system is propaganda that implies you agreed to some contract at some point to be IN this system

When i was born i didnt agree to be a US citizen, they just say that i am

Im not free, I am dominated by the threat that a specific person will pull up and handcuff me

[devout cliff]

Yeah it’s kind of ironic in democracies that the social contract isn’t voluntary and leaving it is nearly impossible. An odd tension that sits at the foundation of what we call the “free world”

[ashen marsh]

Yeah its propaganda !!

thats a really good way of putting it holy shit nice work

sometimes i meet someone that shatters some window i didnt realize was present in my life

some guy walks up to me in public, shakes my hand, and starts talking to me about random shit

we're all just people

• ok not just people lol, i think people are incredible

[devout cliff]

😂

[ashen marsh]

anyway i gotta walk around cause ive been sitting for a while

it was really nice talking to you :D

[dreamy crag]

I may dislike Jeff koons, but damn if this is not a great quote

[cinder forge]

Very nice haha

[mystic hill]

Discussing seriously or seriously discussing.

[cinder forge]

Chicken and egg problem haha

[mystic hill]

Not quite.

[dire robin]

US Isn’t real

The ACP is probably one of the most terrible leftist political parties in existence

Their leaders have claimed that the US is already socialist (and they support it), and a lot more other terrible claims

[jovial condor]

Whats the difference

[stoic tusk]

https://tenor.com/view/tumbleweed-highway-blue-sky-gif-14068616

[mystic hill]

The former is the discussion of serious topics, while the latter is discussing something while being serious.

One refers to seriousness of the discusser and the other the discussee.

[verbal quest]

this will be the spark that leads to #chill becoming #serious-serious-discussion

[scenic moss]

hi guys

should we start new religion Matheism

will u guys join..?

[mystic ridge]

ahah i'm already christian 🙂

[cloud crest]

Multiclassing /j

[mystic ridge]

ik lol

[inner canopy]

The fact that you have the American communist party And the communist party of America as two separate entities is literally a joke from Monty python with the people front of Judea and the Judean people's front

[rapid juniper]

Hi

[glass peak]

And they’re both full of liberals and revisionists. This is why I am starting the party of American communists.

[untold charm]

if u start in NY it might work

[fathom pond]

I wanted to ask is it possible or viable to represent complex additive number theory problems in a geometrical way

I know it's possible I know it's viable but I don't know if it is completely usefull

And I wanted some insight to you guys thoughts

About this

Basically i made a conjecture that for an exception of 2,4,6,22 every even number can be represented as the sum of 2 semi primes and have computationally verified till 10⁸

[tall cloak]

supp

[fathom pond]

Instead of semiprimes being integers they are lattices more appropriately a lattice of phases in the circle group t i defined an operator which measures the transversiality of the semiprimes set against any linear phase

[devout cliff]

[inner canopy]

I'm kinda shocked by the amount of like china dick suckers in the ranks of modern "maoists"
If Mao saw the modern state of china he'd tear it all down but these people keep acting as if china hasn't become a capitalist imperialist state

[barren anchor]

this guy actually said some cool things, I had no idea

[dreamy crag]

Fr? I thought all he did was call normal household objects sexual

[barren anchor]

nah he said chill things like "you finish the art" (the viewer).

[dreamy crag]

I know lol

He’s generally good at talking about art

Just not my type of art

[barren anchor]

this is also a cool thing

[dreamy crag]

It gets annoying to a point

[barren anchor]

see sounds challenging, like that painting in party down

very difficult material to internalize. And bah everything is annoying after you hear it once

that's one of the reasons I find it baffling that people consistently report feeling happier as they get older

like unless their pattern recognition gets busted it's gotta start to be like buuuuuh ino

[hidden bough]

This isn’t his insight or anything though lol

[barren anchor]

does seem odd to me though how many artists will like, do a theme to death, and then just kind of ham on like one idea forever. Like isaac asimov.

[hidden bough]

Money

[barren anchor]

ya definitely not, probably people have known subjectivism for like, 10,000 years. But it's aptly put.

extreme concision is what quotes are best for, not exposing some new idea, (in the most common case)

[vital grove]

Let's say from Pre-Calculus, how long will it take to touch Real Analysis?

[barren anchor]

true true money

[wooden falcon]

1 year give or take

[hidden bough]

It’s almost verbatim a Duchamp quote (and I’m sure many others before him)

[barren anchor]

I'm sure that one gets rediscovered a few thousand times a year and one of those people gotta be famous and saying something on the record at some point

[dreamy crag]

Tbh I’m just not a Jeff koons fan. I find his work not very inspiring. It’s not that I dislike contemporary art, in fact it’s my favorite genre, I just think his art isn’t a great example of it

[vital grove]

Who me?

[barren anchor]

I don't really consume visual art seriously, though I try to engage like the two times a year my city has a festival which is visual art focused

really more a reader

[vital grove]

Let's say if i practice Mathematics 3-4 hours per day via Khan Academy and finish both the Pre-Calculus and the Calc BC Course.

I'll pair that with James Stewarts Early Transcedentals Large Volume

[barren anchor]

my class used some stewarts calculus adn I thought it sucked ass

dense as hell, not sufficient worked examples, basically just you could google a proof and them just get any list of problems from MIT OCW or somethign and be better off

[wooden falcon]

yes

I learned calculus 1, 2, 3 via Khan Academy in a year then started hacking at Tao’s real analysis books

[barren anchor]

3-4 hours a day would imo easily get a normal student fully through those courses within six months - 1 year

[vital grove]

For sure

I'm only 17 years old btw

[barren anchor]

I also think KA is a pretty good supplement for conceptual development

[wooden falcon]

Khan academy, blackpenredpen, and Silvanus Thompson Calculus Made Easy were my favorite resources

Oh and there’s 3blue1brown’s excellent Essence of Calculus youtube series

[barren anchor]

haven't seen the essence of calculus but can second 3b1b as a good supplement in general for quality and succinctness

a good brand, solid stuff in general

[vital grove]

I only really need 1 or two textbooks to pair with Khan Academy

[barren anchor]

you could easily get away with 1. The most important thing is just gonna be working problems imo, and you can find published tests and solutions online courtesy of various university's public websites.

if ur rich I guess you get the textbook's solutions manual too (i would recommend that, I didn't because I was cheap and I regretted it)

[upbeat aurora]

what books ?

[vital grove]

No i come from a low income family, but i will be getting a part time job to cover any expenses

I'm assuming stewarts because Spivaks looks too hard

[upbeat aurora]

but spivak's is actually good

especially when u are pairing it up with other sources

[vital grove]

Is 'Understanding Analysis' good?

[vital grove]

Right, but i'm starting from pre-calculus

[upbeat aurora]

Never read that but heard it's good

[barren anchor]

but you are pairing it with other resources

[upbeat aurora]

we all start from precalc

[vital grove]

Okay i'll do Spivaks then

[wooden falcon]

Calculus Made Easy lives up to its name and is freely (legally!) available on Project Gutenberg

[barren anchor]

and i'm just saying stewart sucks, it's not good, it'll leave you agitated from an implicit step across a proof, it almost feels like it's meant to sell supplements for itself

or maybe provide teachers jobs

[upbeat aurora]

Just do whatever u want

[vital grove]

I think i'll finish the Pre-Calculus course first and then hop into Spivaks while i self study Calc BC material

[barren anchor]

you're not really gonna go wrong though in this day and age, you'll be able to find online resources explaining anything that fundamental should the text be unclear and example problems somewhere should they be unclear. I think spivaks sounds like real analysis though?

I'm used to a more traditional distinction between calc and that but I don't know if that's necessary or even appropriate. Probably like millions of college profs out there, reading about it gives me a slight "am I sending my students into the deep end too soon" vibe, i'd need an idea of what the integrated through-lines are which might (and apparently do) just make it a superior textbook even from an intro calc perspective.

anyways all I can really say is stewarts suck. No idea if it's appropriate to get spivaks instead at a similar math pedagogical phase.

[vital grove]

I'm willing to do the hard stuff if it forces me to reach the highest level of academics

On paper i don't have classes like this, so i'm willing to self study as much as i can to prepare for Physics Undergrad

[viral creek]

Why do you think stewarts sucks?

It's a good default

[barren anchor]

extremely dense proofs which lack exemplification. I don't think it is a good default.

If i had just watched a khan academy visual proof before reading some of those it would've made sense immediately

[viral creek]

Stewart? The one with many images and easy explanations?

[vital grove]

So it's too complex or what?

[barren anchor]

are you talking about essential calculus early transcendetals?

it really doesn't sound like it. I am thinking of the one with like, one graph and then 6 statements

I'd say it's more just not very intuitive, it takes the most formal approach first and then dumps you with problems you need a solutions manual for to apply it, rather than doing them side by side or gradually revealing how it connects concepts.

[viral creek]

I've only studied from his multivariable calculus book, only skimmed the normal one, but they both seemed intuitive

[barren anchor]

I am not gifted though, I prefer concreteness fading, like a baby or most humans

[viral creek]

Let me check though

[barren anchor]

ok, well, there's no "normal one", there are just multiple stewart texts even for single variable, p sure

I am talking about the one most oft assigned high school seniors ime

[viral creek]

I'll look into early transcendentals one sec

[vital grove]

I'm a little bit on the spectrum

So i like having things handed to me

I can read the pdf on my ipad

[barren anchor]

the issue here is perspectival really; a gifted person might find the proofs self-sufficient. I absolutely did not

they might be like "thank you for handing me the complete understanding"

[vital grove]

To be fair, the examples look a lot like the stuff in the Physics Textbooks i use

[barren anchor]

if you can test drive multiple textbooks, I'd do that? see which one hits you as more fitting for how you like to learn?

like if you get chapters 1/2 pdf for free, def worth the time to actually test drive

[viral creek]

Yeah Stewart seems very straightforward tbh, I'm used to my uni giving even less concrete stuff so his things are very nice

He even has solutions for the problem types, that's crazy good

[barren anchor]

yeah I don't know. I used it and thought it sucked ass

[vital grove]

Do keep in mind, i am fine with going more complex afterwards

[barren anchor]

might have changed since 2013 tho

I assumed never change because it was a major institutional standard and profs kind of bought in like in 2005 or somethig

[vital grove]

My goal is to build a decent foundation and to then build up

[viral creek]

But like, Stewart lowkey is too long

[barren anchor]

that's usually what into texts do

[viral creek]

Getting through the whole Stewart early transcendentals would take like ages

And then multivariable too, when you really need like important topics

[barren anchor]

yeah I really prefer dense problem sets + online over any textbook. Skip along as you get the content, take every practice midterm/final you find online on college websites

[vital grove]

I'm fine with being on Stewarts for like a year if i can do Analysis concurrently. (During later Units)

[barren anchor]

also syllabuses are better maps of what you should know rather than a textbook's index

like plenty of classes only cover 1/2 or cherry pick from a textbook, and those profs can design that better than you can probably

[viral creek]

A year is waay too long for single variable calculus, you can get single variable calculus done in like 3 months or less, without daily studying

[upbeat aurora]

Just do precalc first man

[vital grove]

That was my plan

Yeah i'm studying rn as we speak LOL

Well to be fair, Khan Academy has a Calc AB Course

I can probably speedrun that after the precalc one, then go straight to Spivaks

[devout cliff]

Read Piskunovs Differential and Integral Calculus if you want to get a jump on what you’ll do in a physics undergrad. Spivak would be somewhat counter productive imo

It’s really an analysis text even though it’s titled Calculus, it’s great information to learn that will help with higher level theory in physics, but won’t be applicable to the sorts of calculations you need to be doing throughout almost all of your undergrad

[scenic moss]

Guys my concentration power is really declining, any tips to improve it..

[stiff kelp]

Hey guys, I'm interested in your answers regarding why are you on discord?

[old yacht]

hey, got hl aa paper 2 tomorrow wondering if anyones got tips for complex numbers, vectors, and integrals (by parts, integrating factor, etc.)

[hollow bane]

because i like wasting time and need time to destress and declutter before i lock in again

[stiff kelp]

Interesting, so would you say that after wasting a few hours you are energetic and ready to face challenges?

[hollow bane]

yeah

[viral creek]

I've been on the cord since 2016 💔 atp i just use it out of habit

[hollow bane]

i realized for me (its subjective) but i can mess around like 50-70% of the day but can focus for like 1-2 hours and get everything i need done.

[spark oriole]

Isn’t that litterally everyone

[stiff kelp]

That's interesting tbh

[viral creek]

i guess bro, i originally started using it for gaming groups and shit

[stiff kelp]

For me it is very dependent on my mood i guess

[spark oriole]

Litterally the best app

[stiff kelp]

It's hard to break habits

[hollow bane]

i mean i like messing around and i feel like you should go into everything with a laidback attitude

[stiff kelp]

Btw, why is Rock Lee following Muhammad Aiziin the second in your pfp?

[hollow bane]

and if something serious occurs or will occur i plan. prep time makes me overpowered

[stiff kelp]

Yeah, that might work

[hollow bane]

ts is subjective

[stiff kelp]

I just feel like i have to study this week hard and my mind just can't focus and it keeps making me somewhat frustrated

[hollow bane]

do u have jee or some shit

[stiff kelp]

Some shit

Yeah, not jee

That's some black magic stuff

[hollow bane]

smh

r u american, aps right?

[stiff kelp]

Yeah

Let's go with that

Any tips on how to get myself back in the 'game'?

[hollow bane]

de-stress first

ur not gonna be procratinating right

[stiff kelp]

It's pretty hard as it is getting closer and i didn't study as much as would be great tbh

[stiff kelp]

Well, sometimes, and when i can't focus like these days, more often

[indigo pecan]

A question where are they studying?

What school

I would like to know if you have seen this about topology

[hollow bane]

what, like something bein homeomorphic or

[indigo pecan]

About the financial statements. They have understood Markov or Brownian chains

[hollow bane]

provide some context?

[indigo pecan]

They have a doctorate, I don't know if it's called that?

[stiff kelp]

I'm lost rn, where did we get to

[hollow bane]

so they got a phd from doing something in topology?

[indigo pecan]

Or don't just ask friends, I don't know what they could tell me.

I would like to learn applied mathematics

[hollow bane]

do it then

[indigo pecan]

And the nash equilibria in a sphere

[viral creek]

mf just saying words 😭 he ain't human bro

[indigo pecan]

Have you done it?

My English is terrible haha

[viral creek]

What's the question first off

Are you asking for game theory help?

[stiff kelp]

What are you guys even talking about

[hollow bane]

that swat i tryin to figure out

[stiff kelp]

Well anyway

How about we get back maybe?

[odd narwhal]

🥳 🥳 🥳

[spark oriole]

That’s Danny the creative mind behind A.B.A.C.U

[stiff kelp]

Elaborate?

[spark oriole]

Do you play ABA?

[stiff kelp]

No

[spark oriole]

Do you know what ABA is?

[stiff kelp]

No

[stiff kelp]

Btw, you left?

[spark oriole]

Anime Battle Arena

[stiff kelp]

And that's a game or on some platform?

[spark oriole]

Roblox

[stiff kelp]

Ahh, i see

[spark oriole]

Lowkey kinda of a cult

[stiff kelp]

https://tenor.com/view/plug-shoebody-bop-ritual-cult-gif-383974090492735392

[spark oriole]

Just search up ABACU on tiktok

[stiff kelp]

Rather not lol, not really interested in Roblox stuff

[spark oriole]

Most ABA players only play ABA in terms of Roblox

[stiff kelp]

I see, but it can be played also outside of it?

[spark oriole]

Umm I got ABA Launcher

[stiff kelp]

And that's different from Roblox? Like not even associated with it?

[spark oriole]

It’s like a shortcut that lets you boot up ABA without having to open Roblox

[stiff kelp]

But it is on a Roblox server, no?

[spark oriole]

Yeah

With a Roblox account

[stiff kelp]

I see, didn't know a launcher was an option, noted

[spark oriole]

Litterally every ABA player has it

[spark oriole]

I can teach you to play later today

[drowsy meadow]

Justice is the performance of the human condition

Justice is simply ego.

[stiff kelp]

I see

[spark oriole]

Do you want to me to teach you?

[stiff kelp]

No need, but thanks for the offer

[stiff kelp]

Elaborate

[drowsy meadow]

We as humans live with a quiet selfishness built into every choice we make. Even the noblest act circles back to the self, whether through relief, pride, approval, or the comfort of believing we acted rightly. Society is nothing more than the sum of these tendencies reflected on a larger scale. When society punishes a criminal, it does so not from some pure and detached moral command but from a desire to soothe its own unrest.

The same pattern appears in redemption. When we speak of forgiveness , we reassure ourselves that we are capable of rising above cruelty. We paint ourselves as bearers of a higher moral code, sometimes invoking divine authority, sometimes invoking human virtue, but always circling back to the need to feel righteous in our judgement.

[stiff kelp]

Wtf, did you paste this?

[drowsy meadow]

I am debating with another person on a different server over the same topic

[stiff kelp]

Okay, but morality also arises from reinforcement, so society shapes values and rules.

Or sometimes people just realise that it's not worth the effort to hold a grudge, as the saying goes: "Forgive, but don't forget"

[stiff kelp]

I see, are you a big debate guy?

[drowsy meadow]

"not worth the effort", implies that particular act is below them. It's not particularly worthy of their time, and they are above it - making them righteous in their decision. Whenever, a man forgives another he makes an argument of being a "bigger man", thus leaving that situation behind and ensuring peace and being morally superior at that time.

[drowsy meadow]

Forgive but don't forget, is nothing but amounting to the same idea that justice is ego. One forgives but drags it down for the eternity, which is directly based in ego.

[drowsy meadow]

I am not.

[stiff kelp]

I see it differently, i think that when someone forgives or realises that it's not worth the effort, his assessment tells him that he will lose more energy than he puts in or that he will waste his energy and usually people that rethink these things weigh how ready are they to draw a boundary and such

[stiff kelp]

How would you define ego

[stiff kelp]

Okay

[viral creek]

what if i am just forgetful and don't hold grudges cause i forgot

[drowsy meadow]

That amounts to dementia, you should make an appointment.

[viral creek]

lmfao I do not have dementia, I just don't think holding grudges is worth my cognitive effort

[stiff kelp]

Depends on the situation

[viral creek]

Unless someone genuinely ruined my life in some way, I could not care less

which has yet to happen

[stiff kelp]

I mean, if we consider pollution, you could hold a grudge against a lot of people that are actively ruining your environment also your life

[viral creek]

I guess bro, but is it worth holding a grudge, which is active effort, against somebody who you've never met? nah.

Nobody lives rent free in this head

[stiff kelp]

Maybe yes, maybe not

[stiff kelp]

How much is the rent?

Btw didn't we talk yesterday about the usefulness of math?

[viral creek]

no clue, i forgot

[stiff kelp]

Dementia?😭

[viral creek]

No my brain is just prioritizing flash card info over random conversations on mathcord 💔

[stiff kelp]

What kind of flashcard info though?

[viral creek]

Studying for my material science final

[stiff kelp]

Okay, fair enough

[devout cliff]

Interesting field

[stiff kelp]

I hope you will do well

[devout cliff]

I like matsci

[viral creek]

Forced to take the course by the uni, I think its alright

[stiff kelp]

I personally have no idea what it is about

[viral creek]

uh, steel 👍

[stiff kelp]

Man of steel

Tough you are, huh?

[viral creek]

i guess bro

[stiff kelp]

How tough though

[stiff kelp]

Btw, till i don't forget, how do keep your mind focused and sharp so you can study well?

[viral creek]

I study for like 2-4 hours a day, and when I want to study i just turn off distractions, that means having only the material in front of me and studying

[devout cliff]

I sleep and fly fish

[stiff kelp]

And don't have days when you just can't focus at all and don't want to study, like sit down, but can't put your mind onto it

[devout cliff]

Rest is important to the process

[stiff kelp]

Fly fish?

[viral creek]

I still try studying but when I cant i just dont

sometimes its genuine burn out, but when I have to do stuff I push myself

[devout cliff]

Yeah for trout and salmon, you know the old school long rods that sling the line back and forth

You study a lot and then go outside in nature and think about what you were studying. Surprisingly useful

[stiff kelp]

Tbh, i can't tell what's with me, i was studying hard for one exam a month or one and a half ago and from that point i had less and less motivation everyday and i genuinely couldn't care less for some reason and now i just try to put things together, but i just have an issue with focusing for days now

[stiff kelp]

Hmmm, sounds interesting

[sharp ice]

ugbj... no. i need krack

[primal crow]

Hello Everybody. I'm seeking for the Smartest person in this server!
I have to find him no matter what.
I will do whatever it takes to meet him.
please help me.

[magic python]

And if they don't use the "him" pronoun?

[stiff kelp]

Define smartest person

[magic python]

What is define?

WAIT THIS IS SERIOUS DISCUSSION

[stiff kelp]

Yes, yes this is

[magic python]

Hey at least my first point stands

[true zinc]

No such thing as the smartest person

[verbal quest]

no
it's not

[magic python]

Oh in that case

Meow (silly goober)

[flat karma]

Hello Sirius discussion

[mellow pond]

it pisses me off how there's a certain degree of infighting and of projecting insecurities in certain pockets the trans community

like if you're not the exemplar of "passing" you're not valid or some shit

[magic python]

If you mean what I think you mean, people saying "noooo you ate valid because you pass" could probably be them thinking others feel similar ways, it's hard to imagine how different it can be.

But if you mean them saying you aren't valid if you don't pass, oh yeah, that's fucked.

[mellow pond]

god forbid a girl not wanna voice train, god forbid a person not wanna go on HRT because of hangups about specific effects, god forbid someone have traits of the body they were born with despite not identifying with the sex they were assigned at birth, god forbid someone not get top or bottom surgery

[mellow pond]

i meant both ngl

[magic python]

I totally understand, the first one also can be very putting down of struggles...

[mellow pond]

yeah

all trans ppl are valid, passing is subjective, validity is independent of how well someone passes

[magic python]

And the whole transmedicalism bullshit needs to stop, as well as its slightly more general "if you don't look that gender enough you aren't, you are just lying"

[mellow pond]

some ppl don't have access to or a desire to hormonally or surgically transition

[mellow pond]

literally

[magic python]

Honestly, I sometimes wonder just how many people do treatment because of this ideology

...

Well I know at least one

[mellow pond]

who? /nf

[magic python]

Me if I am being honest

[mellow pond]

:(

i understand that ngl

but just pls know you're valid regardless

[magic python]

Sure, now I actually do want the surgeries and that for other reasons, but like, when I was years younger did I even know the surgeries could do that?

[magic python]

Well yeah, all of us are :3

Just kinda insane how much I latched onto "if I don't look like this I am not a proper girl"

And I feel like it's a very easy thing for people to latch onto

Honestly it's sad how much pressure is put on trans people who are totally fine with their bodies to transition medically

Just because they don't look like how someone thinks they should, doesn't mean they aren't who they are

If someone doesn't want to change medically, so be it. Their body their choice.

There is no one way to be trans :3

[long orchid]

for me thats beard

i tend to give zero shits about beard even tho i want to transition in almost every other way (hormonally+surgically, i'd go pedal to the fkn metal re ffs), but people will freak ofc

ah gender norms...

[magic python]

Gender norms are so weird istg

tfw anybody gender non-conforming or seems slightly out of gender norms is treated as a trans person by transphobes

[long orchid]

i mean fwiw i just shaved, but like

[formal sonnet]

@blazing basin where did you grow up?

[blazing basin]

İn Turkey

[formal sonnet]

did you face a lot of discrimination there?

[blazing basin]

I also live here

[formal sonnet]

I’m just comparing it to my situation, but I keep in mind that each situation is different.

[blazing basin]

From time to time, some Turks refer to racism under the name of humor because I am Kurdish, It happens more when I say my grandmother is Armenian

[formal sonnet]

Personally I have dealt with a bunch of discrimination since I’m Azerbajani which is ironic

[blazing basin]

Unfortunately, racism is everywhere

[formal sonnet]

How is life in turkey now? I personally couldn’t handle it.

Last time I was there was almost a year ago.

[blazing basin]

Racism has increased a lot in Turkey in recent years, if you live here without being Turkish, you will be bullied to return to your country

[formal sonnet]

How is the economic situation?

[blazing basin]

Or you see racism under a joke, not to mention the economic crisis

1 euro is around 50 liras

[formal sonnet]

5 thousand lira for one coffee please

[blazing basin]

Lmao this is real sometimes

[formal sonnet]

ugh the one memory I have which makes me laugh to this day, is when I tried to catch the bus and he stopped waited for me and then looked me in the eye and drove off.

[blazing basin]

We come into the world once and we live with racist people in a bad economy, it's too bad

[blazing basin]

Oh

[formal sonnet]

Truly , come to Baku instead .

[blazing basin]

As far as I remember, the manat is 15 times more valuable than the lira lmao

[formal sonnet]

Yes

[blazing basin]

I'm sure life in Azerbaijan is better

[formal sonnet]

UHHH KINDAAA.

It’s like okay , it’s fine id say except like it’s fine if your rich.

[blazing basin]

Actually, I'm not exactly rich, but I have a good life in Turkish conditions

[formal sonnet]

most of my friends I know it’s 2 sided .

[blazing basin]

People are either poor or rich in changing living conditions

Unfortunately, middle-income people are decreasing

[formal sonnet]

yes which is crazy because your telling me one friend who is Mashallah insanely rich, He owns a elevator in his house.. in his room.. while my other friend same age as him doesn’t own a elevator in his apartment complex?

[blazing basin]

I think things are not going well around the world, I'm really curious about the result.

This is true not only in Azerbaijan but also in most countries of the world

[frozen narwhal]

Elevator in his house

[formal sonnet]

Yeah , I’m fortunate enough to live outside of Azerbaijan and I get so much backlash for it too.

[formal sonnet]

Yes , it’s insane like my mind can’t comprehend it.

[blazing basin]

I think the Azerbaijani people are the best people among the Turks

İ love them

[formal sonnet]

a lot of them are abusizers

[glossy marlin]

-# what I heard about the whole area from others is just that one of the countries is always at war and they´re all about as right-wing and two-faced as it gets

[blazing basin]

Probably

[formal sonnet]

which is unfortunately really true , thy switch up faster than the weather.. depending which benefits the rich the most.

[glossy marlin]

not just switching fast but also lying to their citizens and many outsiders about what they´re doing, e.g. when it comes to lgbtq+ people
but it´s been a while since I had those discussions...

[formal sonnet]

Mm!! Even though I’m not apart of the lgbtq+ community and I’m not as Knowledgeable about it.. but I know a majority of Turkish girls who I’m friends with are lesbian and get so much hate about it.

[magic python]

Oh is this a conversation about hate and murder or am I misreading

[formal sonnet]

no personally I didn’t intended my words to be this way, i don’t believe in spreading hate when theyres enough in the world.

[magic python]

Nonono I didn't mean yall were.

It reads to me as a conversation about it

Especially the comment on lgbtq+ knowing how that turns out globally

(Well I guess not really globally, just trends in some bigger countries that actually get talked about it enough to me about what they do...)

[formal sonnet]

I feel like these type of topics are swept under the rug especially by countries that aren’t very popular amongst others.

[magic python]

Honestly the whole "progressive" label means basically nothing imo outside of like, maybe living here won't give you the death penalty for it.

Sure as hell doesn't mean the country is accepting or it's medical system is to my knowledge of one's called progressing.

[glossy marlin]

-# iirc I talked to a trans girl from azerbaijan and she said like 2% of people are the slightest bit left-leaning, crimes of all kinds happen every day, and if you´re anything but the manliest man in town somebody is hunting you down for it...
-# the guy who got me onto discord is also from somewhere in that area and has zero kids´ rights, lgbtq+ rights, anything

[formal sonnet]

unfortunately when I talk to my cousins this is so true, and the worst part is that really nobody does anything about it.. it’s played off as a joke usually.. and a lot of the people are like very “old fashioned” .

[gloomy marten]

Does anyone have a guide on understanding plurality? Someone sent me this https://morethanone.info/ but I don't understand what pronouns to use

[sharp yarrow]

No

[mellow pond]

@true zinc i think you may be able to help a tad
i'm too tired of this dude's bs to try to explain anything /lh

[glossy marlin]

prior system, in the community, sorta psych nerd... any one guide will either be hundreds of pages long or not capture many of the experiences systems have

[gloomy marten]

I am more interested in applying like the pronouns, I don't understand when I should use each ones. I get that I'm annoying, but I don't like misgendering people

[true zinc]

Each alter may have different pronouns. Use the ones they tell you to use. For most, They/Them should be fine in general reference. -ghost

I have not read any of the preceding conversation in this chat room, so apologies if my advice is not helpful.

[glossy marlin]

if you know who´s fronting, use that person´s pronouns (or the collective pronouns if the headmate / system prefers it)
if not, ask or use the system´s collective pronouns.

[gloomy marten]

What if I don't know what alter (?) the person (is this ok to say?) is at the moment

[true zinc]

Then ask.

Some systems will find it offensive to ask, some will not, it is usually universally considered extremely rude to ask a specific alter to front, however.

[mellow pond]

-# wellll it was kinda more of a matter of him completely misusing the math channel and accusing ppl of minimodding when asked to just move here or drop the topic

[gloomy marten]

System is the plural equivalent of person?

[true zinc]

Yes.

Some prefer other terms, however.

[gloomy marten]

@analog abyss what term do you prefer, if you don't mind me asking?

[gloomy marten]

Also you, I see you a lot

Is the second person pronouns okay? I really am new to this, and I want to understand properly. I have never heard of plurality before

[true zinc]

I will also state that I am well known for being curt, please do not interpret this as anger. If anything, I am usually completely indifferent to the affairs of humans, as I specifically exist to shield the system if we are ever in a state where we are in danger, imminent risk of harm, or just overwhelmed.

[true zinc]

It depends on the alter and the system. Usually one should use second person pronouns when addressing one specific member of the system, else second person plural.

[glossy marlin]

system, collective, group, whatever... some people have different preferences among alter, headmate, member, etc. too.
and the most common phrasing for "who the person is at the moment" is just "who´s fronting"

[true zinc]

Never ever in any circumstances, refer to a system member in the third person while talking to them UNLESS they explicitly request it.

It is extremely rude to do this.

An example would be "Does ghost like pineapples", instead of just asking "Do you like pineapples" if ghost is the current member fronting.

[analog abyss]

Wdym (I haven’t been reading this chat)

[true zinc]

He is asking what terms you use to refer to your system and what pronouns you wish to be referred to by.

[sharp yarrow]

what is the topic

[magic python]

Welp I guess I also need to switch up my language in this case then as well

[true zinc]

The current topic of discussion is related to educating TC159 on the concept of plurality, which is intimately related to Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID) and Other Specified and Unspecified Dissociative Disorder (OSDD).

[sharp yarrow]

Oh so this is why its kinda like DID

[magic python]

Hope I haven't offended anyone too much in the past due to this

[mellow pond]

just curious isn't it directly related if not the same? /genq /lh

[analog abyss]

For us, I (micot) prefer she/her pronouns and not to be referred to in 3rd person
mishu prefers being referred to as mishu (it/its pronouns), and one of the main ways to tell who’s fronting is that mishu will almost always use “mishu” over “I”
I don’t mind being called a person, mishu prefers not to (it’s a dragon, not a person), and we don’t mind terminology other than that point. If you’re referring to both of us, use plural (in the grammatical sense) terms
And if you can’t tell which of us is fronting, she/it pronouns and call us mico
Collectively, we are micoi

[true zinc]

It is related, it is not the same. OSDD and its variants are distinct from DID.

[glossy marlin]

-# DID and some forms of OSDD require plurality (and very specific structures at that), not all plurality is any of those or disordered at all. pop culture "plurality representation" is almost never accurate presentation or written by a system

[analog abyss]

[mellow pond]

oh i didn't mean that
i meant plurality/being a system in relation to DID and some forms of OSDD

[true zinc]

Besides that, the DSM-5 only states (to my recollection) that plurality is only a requirement for a DID diagnosis and is not identical.

[sharp yarrow]

You know in my language and many other languages we dont use pronouns, so I dont really get the fuss

[gloomy marten]

first time hearing about that

[mellow pond]

oh i see

[true zinc]

In what sense. You definitely do have pronouns such as I, you, they, etc...

Almost all human languages have such constructs.

[sharp yarrow]

Well yeah but not in a gender centric kinda way that people are obsessing about

[mellow pond]

thank you for clarifying

i'm only somewhat educated on DID and OSDD, largely bc i tried to learn to better understand my now ex partner, but i still have gaps in my knowledge

[magic python]

To be fair, if I said "in my culture we don't use knives, I don't get what's the fuss if I stab you" I'm not right like at all

Gender dysphoria is a very real thing that kills

[mellow pond]

one time where i'll let an extreme example pass bc this is how it lowk feels

[magic python]

The "fuss" is often deserved in many cases

[true zinc]

I require further context.

[gloomy marten]

I have really bad memory, would referring to you (the collective and singular) almost exclusively as the collective micoi be offensive?

[analog abyss]

It wouldn’t be (we prefer mico for singular, but we won’t respond negatively to micoi - at worst we’d politely correct you)

[magic python]

To me it sounds like they are saying throwing around any pronouns is fine because in their language they don't use them, "so what's the fuss"

Both can very much hurt people.

[mellow pond]

whoever you're replying to, i have them blocked, presumably for the better, what are they saying?
some shit like "erm i don't have pronouns and i don't get all this gender stuff" or something?

[true zinc]

"You know in my language and many other languages we dont use pronouns, so I dont really get the fuss" is a direct quote of this user.

I would suggest expanding the blocked message.

[gloomy marten]

Is this connected with transgenderism or just different?

[magic python]

Honestly I should've used something less extreme than a knife, often times it feels like a punch rather than a cut, a cut leaves marks for others to see

[true zinc]

Different alters can have different genders, sexualities, and presentations.

[glossy marlin]

DID is plurality (monoconcous or polyconcious, always with distinct alters (not median) and dissociative barriers)
OSDD-1a doesn´t require alters to be distinct, OSDD-1b doesn´t require dissociative barriers, iirc it goes up to like OSDD-6 and there are a bunch of other disorders

[true zinc]

Heck, I am not even a human internally, I am specifically a snowy owl.

[magic python]

... transgenderism is a poisoned term, I'd avoid it...

[analog abyss]

mishu is dwagon :3
mishu is bite :3

[sharp yarrow]

No im saying it can be simplified

[magic python]

Outside of satire of course

[analog abyss]

[magic python]

The issue is for many the wrong ones hurt.

[true zinc]

I request mishu to please not bite me without permission, which I do not usually grant.

[mellow pond]

i can't see which message it's replying to unfortunately

[gloomy marten]

I mean, by being a system you don't identify with sex at birth is just my logic for putting it under a type of transgender

[analog abyss]

Oki :3
(mishu is usually prefer mishu, all in lower case)

[glossy marlin]

1., don´t ise -ism please
2., sometimes a system or specific member is trans and there´s a bit of correlation but they´re very different

[gloomy marten]

Just my ignorant thinking

[true zinc]

Apologies, I shall correct that.

[analog abyss]

I’m trans
mishu is errr
mishu :3

[sharp yarrow]

Yeah but if your speaking to someone face to face it's often just use dem physical appearance as a basis

[gloomy marten]

Oh, what's the term for transgender ideas?

I thought it was transgenderism, apologies

[magic python]

And if someone doesn't "pass" to the other person, this still happens. It still hurts.

[sharp yarrow]

pass?

[glossy marlin]

if you´re plural you don´t identify with count assigned at birth (always 1)

[magic python]

Probably just "transgender ideas"

The -ism has been poisoned to hell by transphobes painting it as a mental illness and ideology

[magic python]

"Look" like their actual gender

(Also the need to pass also hurts so like...)

[gloomy marten]

Is there a social moviment / broader identity that systems with this align with. Similar to LGBT? Or is it a very isolated group?

[analog abyss]

mishu never look like cute little dwagon…
this very mishushaped

[magic python]

(To be fair a certain mental condition (I'd call it a disability based on what it does but whatever) can sort of force it to us so.... if they weren't so stupid they wouldn't be the furthest I suppose)

[true zinc]

I (specifically Ryan) attends meetings at the local plural group for our city.

[glossy marlin]

transgender ideas... as in people being trans, the medicine that´s often needed or wanted, accepting people for what they are, etc.? idk if you could really bundle them up in a way people will agree with

[magic python]

Yay I love my back hurting sometimes to appear femininely, this mind sure is awesome at internal misogyny!

[sharp yarrow]

If they look like a girl they a girl, Dont expect for eastern culture to ask someones pronouns everytime they meet a new person

[gloomy marten]

I would say as the umbrella term for anything coming from the idea that gender does not associate with sex assigned at birth.

[magic python]

Yes this is what passing is.

Gender non conforming people also exist. How do you tell if a masculine girl is a boy or girl?

[sharp yarrow]

They speak and if them get offended, they tell so that it gets corrected simple as that

[gloomy marten]

Feel free to ignore, or tell me if I'm overstepping. Can Ryan force fronting? How does that work? Is it at will who's fronting?

[magic python]

Uh no? Often times people don't due to other reasons. Like punishment.

[true zinc]

I am trying very hard to keep Ryan from fronting right now, if she did this chat would be utter toast.

[mellow pond]

i'm going to choose to stay out of this discussion before i start throwing hands over ppl being transphobic

i can excuse not fully understanding DID or OSDD, they're unfortunately rlly not talked about much, at least not well, but the whole transphobia shit is pissing me off

[mellow pond]

you got this twin i promise

[true zinc]

Oh wow this is such a perfectly timed question, actually. She is currently trying to force her way into fronting as we speak with nothing but rage and anger.

[sharp yarrow]

Punishment from who?

[true zinc]

As to the second part of your question, fronting control is difficult to gain for most systems, some have better control over fronting than others.

[magic python]

The transphobes who beat and assault people, the governments that actually punish this...

[glossy marlin]

if they look like a girl, they might be nonbinary. they might be transmasc, maybe they can´t transition, maybe they don´t want to do much to transition.

[true zinc]

Our system is still very chaotic as we live in an abusive environment, therefore fronting by choice is very difficult.

[gloomy marten]

All my writing is out of ignorance not hate, I am trying to understand and get educated.

[mellow pond]

i look a bit more androgynous if not masculine yet i'm a girl :3

[magic python]

You know, it's people like this that cause me to be more internally misogynistic I think. Gotta love life

[sharp yarrow]

If a person say age 40 is gonna strike up a conversation they not gonna telephonically know what you are

[true zinc]

If you see her front, I would suggest getting very very very far away. I mean this to everyone. Conversations like this very frequently either lead to her exploding at everyone or spiraling into denial (again).

[magic python]

Just how much others can affect you

[analog abyss]

For us, both of us can usually force fronting
And neither of us are good at stopping the other

[magic python]

Why not just use they/them and be neutral...

[glossy marlin]

some people are terrified of their own families or governments finding out. some people are constantly punished for speaking up. some people just run out of energy if it happens a hundred times a day.

[mellow pond]

i understand fully dw

i was going to dip out of serioussy for a bit anyway bc i hate when a mf refuses to try to understand trans ppl

[true zinc]

I can smell the transphobia from a kilometer away...

[gloomy marten]

My sympathy for living in an abusive environment, I hope you, the system, will be able to escape

[sharp yarrow]

That's just not the norm in the world sadly

[true zinc]

Then FUCKING DO BETTER

[glossy marlin]

idk, maybe abusive parents, maybe cis peers that don´t get it, maybe governments that do lynchings

[magic python]

Alright, well, that's a you issue. Be the change.

[true zinc]

DON'T FUCKING ACT LIKE YOU DON'T HAVE FUCKING FREE WILL WHY DON'T YA

[true zinc]

My family threatened to throw me onto the streets for being trans

[glossy marlin]

they should ask. or just use gender neutral language.

[analog abyss]

sneaks back into its hoard and under as much stuff as possible

[sharp yarrow]

Well you cant really blame me, I dont speak english in real life

[glossy marlin]

-# the world is cruel. why contribute

[magic python]

I don't ask pronouns because I'm horrible socially so I either don't interact or use neutral until someone says "Hey why aren't you calling them X pronoun? You sound weird" or just hear someone else refer to them with pronouns they seem like respond well to

[true zinc]

Oh I definitely can and I am. I assume that even in your native language there are pushes towards the use of gender neutral language, even if you don't know of it

I am trying my hardest to be civil right now, maybe this is my sign to head out for the night

[glossy marlin]

yeah, that´s the case for a lot of trans people I´ve talked to
-# even in "progressive" areas or with "progressive" parents

[sharp yarrow]

We don't have gender in our language we just say you,me,them and thats all

[magic python]

Because yay. Turns out trying not to be rude is actually what gets you labeled as a queer in many places!

[true zinc]

My parents have recently started watching tucker carlson for their news after 30 years of watching more left leaning media sources

[magic python]

I'll be damned if what gets me found out is being supportive of my fellow trans individuals

[quick beacon]

Honestly, I think it's reasonable to make an assumption about pronouns, and if you guess wrong, then allow yourself to be corrected. Especially if pronouns are not offered. Double especially because, like it or not, the audience of people who would take insult at being asked their pronouns is still larger than the audience that would take insult at not being asked.

[sharp yarrow]

Thats what I said

[analog abyss]

Mine disowned me
Fortunately I was 200 miles away and my uni was willing to give me accommodation

[noble tinsel]

Exactly, i want to add to this discussion that using gender neutral pronouns may lead to you being labeled as a Woke Little Bastard. And I know that being labeled as woke or queer ends up in segregation and social rejection.

[magic python]

ugh this reminds me of when I was asked what my pronouns were and felt... empty.

[magic python]

Indeed

Just hide as a bigot and stay safe is unfortunately what I've started trying to do...

[gloomy marten]

I mean, when I go outside I do this. But I know that the people I interact with online are disproportionately trans

[magic python]

I DONT GO OUT OF MY WAY TO BE BIGOTTED

[mellow pond]

genuine question i've noticed a lot of mods taking away their mod roles temporarily lately, is there a reason?

[quick beacon]

I'm on a boat. 🚢

[mellow pond]

peak

[true zinc]

I strongly disagree with this, you may end up pushing away other queer people who may actually want to be friends with you or may be trying to figure themselves out

[magic python]

But if someone asks me about what transgender is, I sure as hell won't give the informed answer.

[mellow pond]

not the way to go imo

[true zinc]

I agree, this is just perpetuating harm

[sharp yarrow]

Probably because it's online community is there sanctuary

[magic python]

Want to be friends with me? I guess if they are like that they do deserve happiness

[mellow pond]

you shouldn't hide your own beliefs to the point of acting bigoted, it's an act of betrayal to your own community imo

[sharp yarrow]

Perhaps off the canary islands?

[gloomy marten]

I mean, trans people don't really have safe spaces and are a targeted minority. It's understandable why. Wouldn't use the word sanctuary though

[glossy marlin]

-# yeah, I had that at like... ten. and I said so. and the therapist did nothing with it

[true zinc]

I may be about to cause a very big problem by saying this, but this doesn't just make you someone who is betraying, but an active danger.

You are no better than those you purport to be against if you act like this

[magic python]

Okay the term bigot here is being used very lightly.

As in i won't correct people on stuff, I'll just try and stay silent. I won't inform people. I won't bring stuff like this up. I'll try to stay silent when it is brought up. And I'll act stupid if I am accused of it.

[mellow pond]

agreed

[true zinc]

So you're being complacent

That is...no better

[mellow pond]

pls just use a different word then, it has way worse of an immediate connotation than you're intending even if you're just using it "lightly"

[magic python]

"Oh you think I'm trans? That's dumb, why would I have been a boy or something like that? Im a girl?"

[true zinc]

There is a very good reason that the term transphobic trans person exists

[mellow pond]

agreed

[magic python]

I forgot the term

[glossy marlin]

there are a couple terabytes of text and comics about how it´s not a safe haven, outside is just a thousand times worse

[gloomy marten]

I do find it incredibly weird that right wing politics, which is often associated with personal freedoms, is often transphobic.

[magic python]

Yeah I prioritize myself internally for no reason, trust me, I know.

[mellow pond]

there's a difference between being scared to come out compared to completely just turning your back on your community for self preservation at the expense of others

[gloomy marten]

I don't mean just US politics, I'm not American

[true zinc]

Car you are on such thin ice right now, you really do not want to know

[noble tinsel]

There's no better way or at least no good way, when the repercussions for going actively against bigoted discourse are, again, social segregation and isolation

[magic python]

I always am on thin ice with my self preservation

[true zinc]

Yes there are, accept the segregation and isolation

Because it's better than turning your back on not just people you purport to care about but also just yourself

[mellow pond]

ik it's easier said than done but it is infinitely better if not necessary to fight for what you believe in even when there is a risk of it kicking you in the ass

[sharp yarrow]

really, im not really in any community so I wouldn't know, well I fancy myself as a nomad

[magic python]

Okay maybe if I saw actual bullying I'd 100% step in

But when it's something they can handle, why would I hurt myself over this when I'm hurting myself already hiding?

[gloomy marten]

You have friends, no?

[gloomy marten]

That's a community man

[mellow pond]

the first pride was a riot
they didn't hide their beliefs just to make someone else happy

[true zinc]

I genuinely do not understand how someone says they want to transition, then do absolutely nothing in their power to at-least support other trans people they know, not even seeking them out or anything

[glossy marlin]

-# "we´re keeping kids safe"
-# [proceeds to harm or kill thousands of kids to get more control and harvest more data]

[magic python]

I just see people make "the joke" and ignore it

[true zinc]

What is "the joke"

[sharp yarrow]

Real life yeah but Ive only interact with them if we're both on the same place at the same time

[magic python]

I've never seen someone else, I've just seen casual transphobia.

[glossy marlin]

-# a lotta trans women are involuntary nomads...

[gloomy marten]

I mean yeah, but that's a community yk man?

[magic python]

"I identify as a helicopter"
"I identify as a threat, my pronouns are try/me"
And other variations of this nonsense

[mellow pond]

well then fucking do something /lh /nm

[sharp yarrow]

Does class count?

[true zinc]

As a trans person, IMHO, it is your duty to step in, even for transphobia and set the record straight, always.

[gloomy marten]

Yeah

[true zinc]

/srs not /lh

[magic python]

I just can't be there enough to step in...

[sharp yarrow]

I dont even have there contacts

[gloomy marten]

It's like the expression "it takes a village", a lot of people make you into you

[magic python]

I can barely care for myself how am I supposed to do anything like that without letting my emotions control me.

[sharp yarrow]

Yeah thats true

[true zinc]

When someone tried to murder me, I wasn't able to act, I was a coward, and a police officer had to stop it. I've never forgotten that, I'll ALWAYS put others' lives above my own, no matter what.

[mellow pond]

pls don't take this the wrong way but i know what i meant

not upset or downplaying your reply, i promise

[gloomy marten]

holy shit

[quick beacon]

No

[sharp yarrow]

Happy Cruising omni

[gloomy marten]

when someone tried to murder me
First of all, HOLY SHIT

[true zinc]

I know you know what you meant, I now realize my response probably came off as hijacking your post. I mean that I agree with you, except not as /lh but as /srs, apologies, I should have just restated it myself

[magic python]

I'll just always be a coward, plain and simple, I'll stay in the side and regret it for the rest of my life because my mind simply doesn't understand long term things as being worth it.

[mellow pond]

ohh i completely misunderstood what you were trying to get across my bad lmao

all good

[magic python]

If I could change knowingly, idve done it years ago

[true zinc]

Twice (Thrice?) in a week

[mellow pond]

breaking news:
it doesn't have to be that way

[sharp yarrow]

People change so can you

[true zinc]

No you will not be a coward forever, your life is in your hands, do better

[gloomy marten]

are you dependent?

Hope you're able to move out if you haven't

[true zinc]

Now if you willfully refuse to do any better, then we'll..have some problems

[magic python]

Hands that can barely move the clay. That can barely shape the sculpture.

[mellow pond]

in the kindest way possible, i can't stand when someone refuses to improve without even trying while making excuses

[magic python]

How, therapy?

[true zinc]

and by that I mean that you should take a thought about whether your cowardice is actually jus enabling the right wings and transphobes to cause harm that you may have had the opportunity to stop

[mellow pond]

that but also just independently trying to be and trying to learn to be a better person

[magic python]

I've tried. Many times. I still try.

[sharp yarrow]

Well try to find real life community

[mellow pond]

-# which i need to take my own advice on

[true zinc]

Okay maybe I should step away for a bit, I'm realizing that some of my posts come off as if I were hounding Car, which was not my intention

[magic python]

Ha... funny.

Put myself in a place with people like me who I'll feel othered around for having different issues, all while feeling othered in every other place, if I even can find a group.

Plus, it'd probably make me be more dependant on others approval, the exact opposite of what I need to stand up

[magic python]

Hm? No, it doesn't sound that way to me, you are being a voice of reason, no?

[mellow pond]

all good
whatever you feel is best for yourself

[sharp yarrow]

Expectations can be different from reality sometimes you need people to hold you accountable of your failures

[magic python]

Then I'm already improving.

[true zinc]

I did explicitly call you out quite harshly for not wanting to change, implying that you specifically not doing so would cause severe harm to your community, which is frankly overblown to a small degree

[magic python]

No I agree, me being a coward is harming others, I do it out of fear, nothing you have said sounds wrong to me

[true zinc]

Then what will you do about it? /rhetorical

You do not need to have an answer right now, nor even tell the chat what the answer is, but think on it

[magic python]

I mean anything I could do my current condition would force me out of, outside of beating myself up over being a coward

Which would make me more dependent on people's approval than I already seem to be, so uh

[gloomy marten]

Ryan, do you change your nickname everytime you front? And do the other alters do the same?

[sharp yarrow]

Rui'An

[magic python]

It's whatever, I'm already a horrible person, not like I don't try to get rid of this one thing.

I speak up online at least

[true zinc]

Yes

[glossy marlin]

"lol", said the right wing. "lmao".

-# > afab housing (transmasc inclusive)
-# > transmasc majority in all physical spaces
-# > discrimination against trans women, justified by more discrimination or "her vibes were off"
-# > discrimination against trans women also in other minorities, e.g. intersex, plural, people of color

the list goes on for uh... five pages, a4, 12pt? idk. without examples

[mellow pond]

what's this about? /genq

[glossy marlin]

many of us can´t find "real life community"

[glossy marlin]

oh and that´s in the "good places"
there are countries that will fucking kill you if you´re not a hunk

[true zinc]

It's probably awful for me to think and say this, but I have genuinely met some extremely disgusting and horrible people who were transfem (the terms I used are justified, I'm talking ||pedos, groomers, etc...||, I know correlation \neq correlation and literally ANYONE can end up doing horrible shit like that, but considering multiple abusers of mine were also transfem, I am...somewhat biased against myself and whoooo boy do I have a lot of internal transphobia and mysoginy because I really don't want to become like that and also my mum is a really really shitty person and I don't want to become her either

I haven't been able to decouple these thoughts yet so apologies if any of what I have said previously comes off as biased or rude or such

[dreamy crag]

kinda same tbh. less the abusers bit, but just bad relationships that happened to be with transfem people. plus a certain transfem i live with who is... yeah

[true zinc]

Apologies if this is personal but by live with are you referring to alters or someone physically in the house with you

[glossy marlin]

-# yeah, I´ve seen some horrible transfem people, but the correlation I see goes the other way...

[dreamy crag]

pink and to a lesser extent natalie

[true zinc]

...ahhhh

[mellow pond]

wdym

[glass thicket]

There are good and bad people of all kinds my friend. Sorry about your mother.

There’re always bad apples in a bunch, that might skew your opinion, seeing the bad over the good, give to see morality more than characteristics

[magic python]

Thanks for the productive discussion everyone, take care!

[glass thicket]

You too Under grad math

[magic python]

Only pre uni's get called their full name. /lh

[glass thicket]

What does /lh do

[magic python]

Light hearted tone tag, basically I am jesting and not being serious, so don't take it as a rude comeback but more as an addition to some joke

[glass thicket]

You just led me to cortisol maxing and now you say you’re jester?

[magic python]

[glass thicket]

Bruh I have to avenge your appalling mog

[magic python]

Okay uh what is this language..?

[glass thicket]

We’ll talk soon, go sleep sis

[magic python]

???

[dreamy crag]

oh also, thinking about this, the system as a whole has a major distrust towards cis bi men for reasons i do not want to and probably cannot discuss on a public discord server, but yeah, the feeling is kinda normal

[glass thicket]

You must wake early tmr for bone smashing session

[dreamy crag]

i dont have that as much just because im relitivly new and came after it all happened, but it is still there

[magic python]

... you know, being a coward isn't as bad knowing I'd get talked to with similar language to this.

[glass thicket]

You aren’t coward. You’re very confident actually

[magic python]

Say that to my face why don't you

[glass thicket]

I just wanna avoid demoting to sub tier 3

You’re confident. That’s a statement. No sarcasm.

[dreamy crag]

please either be serious in this chanel or leave

[magic python]

What even are you on about mate

[glass thicket]

Why im not jester

[full hornet]

ah

[glass thicket]

Ok I apologize

Got off on the wrong foot

[magic python]

Anyways... yeah. Productive conversation, much needed. Thank you to all who participated in it with me.

[glass thicket]

I’m trying looksmaxxing rn and im trying to figure out my frame

Anytime

[dreamy crag]

(omfg natalie cannot handle a break up, imagine having a teen girl whining and moping in your ear about a frankly abusive partnership (that she thinks was healthy) literaly every second you are awake)

[dreamy crag]

you are not helping your case

[glass thicket]

Break up is hard

[true zinc]

<@&268886789983436800> user has been told to not troll in this channel twice by @dreamy crag and @magic python , has continued on

[glass thicket]

Seriously break up is hard

[magic python]

Thank you :3

[glass thicket]

I promise Im not joking

[dreamy crag]

yes but you are unserious in the channel specificaly designed for serious discussion, so like stop doing that

[glass thicket]

Apologies

How can I make it up

[magic python]

<@&268886789983436800> I've noticed in the past TCC's modpings don't go through properly sometimes, just making sure as previous times a mod never came until almost immediately after someone else modpinged for something else, and the thing TCC brought up sometimes didn't even get seen seemingly, so idk just like here.

[true zinc]

I think that got fixed after the spammer message box collapse thing stopped happening a month or so ago, but let's let a mod answer that question

[magic python]

Also remember a mod saying they didn't go through once

[magic python]

Oh maybe, just double checking

[glossy marlin]

maybe the hatred for transmasc people is a louder in some places on the internet, but I´ve seen the same stuff a lot of trans women complain about, and peri, het or masc people seemed worse in those regards...
-# and some trans guy with the ss symbol in his bio apparently coined a term to discriminate against us for not really them

[radiant sparrow]

Well, if you want to shitpost, at best go do it in #chill - I'm removing you from this channel now

[glossy marlin]

horrible people exist wherever you look, occasionally between transfem people too
-# peri, cis, het, white, masc, whatever people seem either actively worse or more careless to me, but yeah

-# I wish people could stop hating each other but some rich guys keep finding new ways to distract 90% of people
-# wars about people of color. wars about women. fights about gay guys. potential third world war caused by a country distracted by their hatred for trans people. blegh...

[stark trench]

i think the project of assessing which groups of people are better and which are worse is pretty bad.

transfeminine people are often lovely and we ought not say a tremendous deal about their propensity for bad because there isn't really an inherent or generalizable one; cis men are often lovely and we ought not say a tremendous deal about their propensity for bad because there isn't really an inherent or generalizable one; transmasculine people are lovely we ought not say a tremendous deal about their propensity for bad because there isn't really an inherent or generalizable one; etc. etc.

[stark trench]

rich people care about these things just the same, and ironically the rich folk who don't for the most part like, broadly support campaigns which don't aim for reactionary coalitions

like they still broadly support pro-industrialist policy but it's pretty rare for them to co-opt socially reactionary movements

this is done more often by impersonal corporate bodies than individual wealthy people, and it's important to analyze corporations as being distinct from those who hold stake in them

[glossy marlin]

there are different categories with leverage for discrimination in different ways (some seemingly using it more frequently), everyone is capable of harm and not acknowledging it is a great way to do significantly more harm. the occasional person doing good is nice to see but I almost never see them.

[glossy marlin]

yeah, big companies... industries... governments... shareholders...
I know some youtubers donate to charities and such

[stark trench]

yeah, it's true that different groups will have a collective and individual ability to leverage power in different ways (not necessarily for discrimination, but often for it!) and this should be acknowledged, but it doesn't really amount to making value judgements about groups

i think it's mistaken to make a value judgement about an entire group in the way we'd like to here

(although granted i also think this is true for individuals so maybe i'm not the best person to ask, i.e. i don't accept there are "good people" or "better people" and think that's a mistaken notion.)

[stark trench]

doing so reinforces the same prejudices and hierarchies that are undesirable

[glossy marlin]

-# good (adjective) vs good (identity)

[stark trench]

not sure what you mean by this.

but i think you bring up a good point about how ignoring the moral harm that systemic injustice does to oppressors by causing them to behave immorally is undesirable, although most likely you didn't intend this reading

[glossy marlin]

if someone says they´re good (identity), they may not acknowledge their capacity for harm, making it greater
someone can maybe be good (subjective, adjective, mutable)

[sharp yarrow]

What pdf reader for phone do y'all use

[stark trench]

yeah, i deny people can be good in the adjective mutable sense

[glossy marlin]

how about doing good

[stark trench]

sure, yeah, i think it's possible for people to do good things

[stark trench]

for example, a large number of cis men in my culture behave in woefully immoral ways they wouldn't otherwise unless they were taught by patriarchy that this is the correct and desirable way for men to behave

[fervent owl]

I am seriously adored of ur pfp

[glossy marlin]

and "person who tends to do good" gets shortened to "good person" and misinterpreted as "person who is inherently good" sometimes...

[stark trench]

well, they don't need to be inherently good and i think tending to do good is distinct from being a good person

[sharp yarrow]

I think bro read Immanuel Kant

[stark trench]

and oppression also harms the oppressed in this way by subverting their methods of moral epistemology and reducing their access and representation in moral discourse

like this is how you get reactionary groups and counterreactionary groups

to give a sorta academic example, not only women are harmed by androcentrism in ethics and academic philosophy

men are also harmed, and women are harmed especially because they're unable to engage with the entire discourse and routinely silenced

[glossy marlin]

well, "inherently good" is an incredibly difficult thing to be if it is a thing at all, and the usage of "good person" in (informal) english seems to be for those the user perceives as tending to do good
"inherently bad" is also a relatively difficult thing to be, and though it takes a lot of time and effort, "bad" is something someone can usually work not to be

[stark trench]

this is part of why you see intersectional problems with Black transness and Black queer experiences which aren't reducible to additional subjugation by non-Black communities / folk

[stark trench]

i don't really think this is true. most people would probably assent to the statement that a murderer "tended to do good in their life" but would also assent to them not being a good person

[dry nebula]

Wtf yall sentence structure is so amazing

And vocabulary also

[stark trench]

thanks <3

[dry nebula]

Nice grammar omfg( srsly)

[stark trench]

the way we use good is axiological in terms of the person and not their actions, even though these are related. we take a holistic and composite view of them, their blameworthiness, etc. and use this to inform our judgements, rather than merely describing a tendency of their actions

[glossy marlin]

yeah, women are harmed by misogyny and the focus on men´s experiences, men are harmed because of the moral implications and women´s reactions (anger, fear, disgust, often developed through traumatic experiences, whether individual short events or long timeframes / whole lifetimes), the first issues keep pushing women out of the discourse, the latter issues push men out and lead to strange justifications for the former...
it´s a giant web of reactions, reactionary movements, colliders, confounders, etc.

[stark trench]

yeah. this is helpful for understanding why people could support things like chattel slavery and the holocaust. a lot of people have this view of older folk as being, like, morally primitive but if you actually engage with their writings it's categorically false.

to give a (perhaps inflammatory) example, i think the biggest moral harm that has ever taken place is the harm we are currently doing to insects. i think this is worse than chattel slavery, the holocaust, the meat industry, the rwandan genocide, etc. and even though there are lots of very well-intentioned, reasonable people, most of them (the vast majority, even) do not support banning insecticides!

[glossy marlin]

it´s hard for women to talk about misogyny because of misogyny and androcentrism, it´s hard for men to talk about misogyny because of the moral implications of and reactions to misogyny and androcentrism, it´s even more difficult to talk about because there´s always a "next threat" in some sense, whether a person believes it´s another group, the discrimination against that group, or the organizations (companies, cults, governments, ...) that keep up the barrage of strange arguments and perceived threats

similar things apply to some other forms of discrimination

[stark trench]

yup!! and men have their own insecurities to deal with and these are amplified during discussions of misogyny: discussions of personal blame (which are important!), this idea of being effeminate, and resistance from other men and women.

women too.

and it makes it harder for feminist organizations to discuss this because of intersectional issues.

like lots of early feminist orgs. were completely ignorant to the issues of Black women, for instance.

[glossy marlin]

yeah, same thing with a lot of organizations today, and with a bunch of new categories, e.g. trans, nonbinary or intersex people, despite the goals basically remaining the same.
the same stuff applies to organizations made with some other goals...

[storm sage]

Hey magma

I just got infinite jest since I saw y'all talking about it the other week

[glossy marlin]

-# sometimes there seem to be whole new movements and fights specifically about the intersections, and they follow the same course, ending up with little actual discourse.
-# and then there are new axes, subdivisions, intersections, fights...