serious-discussion

[halcyon aurora]

it's a binary encoding of letters, but maybe in #math-discussion we debate this?

[true zinc]

dangit you corrected it too fast 😔

[haughty panther]

Balls people obv

[magic python]

I don't think it can depict the first one, people.

Rapunzel is fine then, noted

[old oak]

Hairy ball theorem strikes again

[haughty panther]

Oh so like "illness"!

[storm sage]

Alright guys... what is a chair

[old oak]

"I'm not sure it is hard to define, so I'm in favour of not having a definition" is certainly a take

[magic python]

Something that identifies as a chair

[haughty panther]

Art
Unless it's bodily chair then not

[cerulean sage]

[magic python]

I am REFERENCING something as well.

[teal lion]

a chair is anything used for sitting or intended for and capable of being used for sitting

[old oak]

There is a mildly notorious Polish encyclopedia from the 18th century which defines a horse as "Everyone knows what a horse is"

[teal lion]

ah yes!

[hidden bough]

Surely then the air is a chair

[cerulean sage]

im thinking of the charlie kirk debate about what is woman idk if that’s ur reference 😭

idk why i have that in my mind omg

[hidden bough]

Or a wall

[teal lion]

i apologize, used for sitting on

[hidden bough]

You can sit on air

[teal lion]

the air can be a chair yes

[haughty panther]

Can you sit on the wall

[teal lion]

if it is what you use to sit on it

[magic python]

Oh no, a transphobe messaged a trans youtuber supposedly and said something like "this bigot called me a bench today, people are so chairphobic," or so I heard. I didn't see it from the original youtuber though, just heard of it.

[teal lion]

a proto-chair is something built to be used for sitting

[old oak]

Something something featherless biped

[hidden bough]

Is a horse worth "defining"

[teal lion]

i’m joking about the protochair

[cerulean sage]

ah

[haughty panther]

Featherless quadruped

[hidden bough]

Do we gain any common understanding of the thing from a non-taxonomic definition of horse

[storm sage]

It is a true curiosity how humans communicate at all

It feels like it should not be possible

[magic python]

Behold! A horse!

brings in a horse

[teal lion]

i think sitting on air is sufficient to make air a chair

[storm sage]

Given how few examples we learn words from

[old oak]

It often feels like it isn't

[hidden bough]

This is lowkey what separates us from horses

[haughty panther]

Then everyone stands up and claps

[hidden bough]

They can't use nebulous ideas and abstraction in the way we can

[storm sage]

My friend is telling me I should look into the Wittgenstein rule-following paradox

[magic python]

The horse did it too and now isn't a horse, as it is on two legs. Pack up everyone, it was a fake.

[haughty panther]

You clearly never talked with a horse

[hidden bough]

It's true

[old oak]

I mean, showing someone a horse and saying "you know, one of those" is probably the most reliable way of explaining what a horse is to someone who doesn't know

[storm sage]

Understood, a horse is something brown

[next schooner]

wittgenstein took an L from kripke on reddit im afraid

[hidden bough]

There's something fundamentally wrong with like all of cinema from 1960 to 1975

[storm sage]

Okay tbh I probably shouldn't have mentioned this movie in this Discord server

[haughty panther]

Why are there so many unsettling media featuring horses

[next schooner]

this is jst like standard greek mythology tho

[hidden bough]

They look like people with long faces

[old oak]

My Little Pony has a lot to answer for

[next schooner]

i blame zeus

[hidden bough]

What

[storm sage]

True, there is Leda and the Swan

[old oak]

I remember the Swan thing, but did he do a horse thing as well?

[next schooner]

na it wasnt zeus it was poseidon

[hidden bough]

Oh you're lowkey right

[next schooner]

and demeter

which uh

[haughty panther]

A guy walks into a bar with a dachshund and bartender asks
"why the long dog"

[storm sage]

How is this about horses

[old oak]

Fun fact, in some versions the Minotaur is the result of the Queen of Crete getting very horny for a particular bull

[next schooner]

idk the poseidon and demeter probably aint suitable for discord

[hidden bough]

Are there version in which it isn't

[old oak]

Probably not, although the Hades game glosses over the details

As it does over most of the incest

[next schooner]

i was gonna say

[hidden bough]

That does seem like a reasonable artistic decision

[next schooner]

there was a lot of incest and un nonconsentual relations

[haughty panther]

My favourite artistic decision in Hades is bouldy

[old oak]

The second game prominently features Zeus and Hera and they pick a backstory that doesn't involve them being siblings

(they made Hera the daughter of Hyperion and Theia, I believe)

[old oak]

Still, they've got nothing on the Ptolemys:

Love a family tree with so many cycles in it

[twilit hare]

Hes bad at tinder and he ran an optimization study on his species

[haughty panther]

Family hypergraph

[old oak]

I mean, wouldn't you if you could?

[haughty panther]

Shower of gold is my favourite Zeus iteration

[storm sage]

How did the Greeks know what was canon? Did they have a Wiki?

[haughty panther]

I'm tired of being a god, let's be piss today

[haughty panther]

Greekipedia

[old oak]

I'm not sure to what extent you're joking, but they in fact didn't know what was canon, and there are several (contradictory) versions of the Greek mythology

[old oak]

@greek Is this true?

[storm sage]

I was joking, obviously they didn't have a Wiki because that word was invented by the Hawaiians, duh...

[haughty panther]

The sacrifices for gods were actually donations to keep the wiki servers running

[teal lion]

rape!?
in my greek mythology?

what next, murder?

[burnt ledge]

Uh oh

The discourse is starting again

[storm sage]

There's no such thing as semantics, every meaning is pragmatic :^)

[teal lion]

‘what’ is clearly not a chair

first off, it is not something you can sit on at all

at least not for the most part

i guess you could write it on something

[odd narwhal]

A miserable pile of secrets

You can't define conceptual categories

Not without inevitably excluding something

[old oak]

But enough sitting, have at you!

[storm sage]

A chair is something one wouldn't be confused by if you pointed to it and said "Look, a chair!"

[odd narwhal]

A chair is a chair. Stellar observation

[umbral berry]

'fanum tax' in 2026 is crazy

[teal lion]

a chair would make that sentence not confusing

the chair could itself be confusing in other ways

though pointing it out may help cope

[storm sage]

Just waiting for someone to point out a counterexample

[burnt ledge]

Yes same with 67 or and so on. this is lowkey why ive never really been too confused by these. you come to understand what terms mean by experiencing and observing how they get used. a chair is what one generally calls a chair is what one understands by "chair"

[odd narwhal]

Person roleplaying as a chair. Are they a chair?

[storm sage]

I wouldn't be confused by that. Ergo chair.

[storm sage]

But how do you generalize to new situations

[teal lion]

you wouldn’t got “serge, why are you in my house, how did you get here, where are my kids?”

[storm sage]

You only hear "chair" a finite number of times but somehow your intuition applies to an infinite number of scenarios

[haughty panther]

does chair of all chairs contain itself

[teal lion]

and i would say “look, a chair”

and point to the wall

and you wouldn’t be confused and stare at my face

[burnt ledge]

i dont know but we manage

[storm sage]

You also basically never hear negative evidence, only positive evidence, yet somehow you know what's not a chair

[teal lion]

to avoid my deception

[odd narwhal]

We only ever see a finite amount of numbers

[storm sage]

Even though absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

[burnt ledge]

that we can generalise is imo beyond question. but i have no idea how we do it and im not sure anyone does really

[odd narwhal]

Conceptual categories can only be defined by what they are not

[storm sage]

Indeed

[burnt ledge]

answering the implementation details isnt necessary i dont think, as long as they are implemented somehow, which they are

[storm sage]

Watched a PhD defense about it recently

[storm sage]

Yes it is, wir werden wissen, wir müssen wissen

[haughty panther]

you get presented implicit negative examples by combining "objects with different names are different" and seeing objects that are given different names

[burnt ledge]

Thats why there are only finitely many numbers

[odd narwhal]

Oh wild burger

[storm sage]

Except many things have multiple names

[burnt ledge]

Keep chat to English only please

[storm sage]

Also most words aren't even objects

[haughty panther]

yeah but if you get told "apple is not a chair" and you believe it and then you get presented an apple and have it called an apple
then you can deduce that it's a counterexample, without being explicitly told "it's not a chair"

[storm sage]

[storm sage]

Who is telling you "an apple is not a chair" and then repeating for each possible pair of nouns though

Yet somehow no child thinks an apple is a chair

[burnt ledge]

There is a catalogue of all constructed numbers: https://numbershop.org

[storm sage]

But then some categories have a fair amount of overlap

And some categories contain each other...

[haughty panther]

we do that by assuming that all nouns are different and specifying synonyms/overlaps in meaning
since there are way less of those
i guess, idk

[storm sage]

Plus it's very rare that as an infant you're explicitly told "this is X" with a clearly labeled object that you're looking at

The fact that infants can learn words at all is mindboggling

[odd narwhal]

Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should

[haughty panther]

you didn't have all chairs labeled as chairs in your childhood?

[storm sage]

There was a study done by Lila Gleitman's lab where they essentially put a camera on a baby to track what the baby is looking at while the baby's caretaker spoke to them, and then they asked people to complete the sentence of the caretaker saying "This is a _" while only watching the video

It's basically impossible, the baby has too many objects in its surroundings

That's for concrete nouns, how tf do we learn abstract nouns?

[burnt ledge]

plus the baby doesnt lnow what makes one object an object and separate from another object

[storm sage]

Yeah figure ground segregation is wild

Even with the inductive bias of knowing what an object is though, it's still incredibly difficult to learn object names

[burnt ledge]

Tbf its not just infants that do this

[storm sage]

And then... how do you even know that a word refers to an object in the first place? Most words don't https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_translation

[burnt ledge]

U js #learn innit

[storm sage]

The even more incredible thing is that infants have to learn what words mean at the same time as they learn what phonemes are in the language they're learning!

How do they know if "hat" and "hut" are the same word uttered in two different ways or actually two different words???

Infant language acquisition is entirely mind boggling to me

[twilit hare]

You aint wrong, the first a child sees a hat and hears the word associated with it how do they actually assocaite the word with the thing? Why wouldnt they associated with face, or eyes or anything else? Its interesting

[storm sage]

It's utterly fascinating!

There's a lot of models like this, my language acquisition professor has as his pet favorite the "pursuit" model

Where infants basically make hypotheses about meanings and wait to falsify them at the next occurrence of the word

Based on results from artificial language learning studies

But there's so many open questions about that

[burnt ledge]

Well maybe they do first associate it with the face or eyes or something else and then get tripped up later on subsequent encounters

Oh thats kinda what eric said

[twilit hare]

Thats a fun train too how do they segment words in their visuals

[steel blade]

I feel like thats the most natural thing to do. But there are so many words

[burnt ledge]

How do you

[steel blade]

Id say its crazy having to deal with that and vision

[storm sage]

Yeah, but then the obvious questions are like:

1. How do they make hypotheses?
2. How many hypotheses do they have to keep in their mind at once?
3. How do they know if their hypothesis is falsified?

(And so on)

[burnt ledge]

Is there anything particular in these questions to infants?

[twilit hare]

Thats just a cop out everyone visualizes and sees things different as well as processes things different there is no similiar processing we can do outside of something like a ball getting thrown at you

[steel blade]

Yeah because how can they know its falsified without language

I guess yes and no are sufficient

[storm sage]

Well they're not asking anyone if they're right, they can't even speak

[steel blade]

Yeah they just have to wait until someone tells them they are wrong. And then they need to recall their hypothesis

[storm sage]

They can't speak, how can someone tell them they are wrong

[steel blade]

They try and say hut and you say no

[storm sage]

They have to somehow infer that they were wrong based on the speech of people around them and the statistics of the environment

[storm sage]

Again they can't even speak they're like several months old

[burnt ledge]

they csn definitely understand better than they can speak

[steel blade]

Pointing is enough ig?

I think how animals communicate is amazing too

[storm sage]

How infants learn to segment words from speech is actually a really fascinating question because if you listen to speech, it all just sounds continuous, there aren't obvious breaks. We know some stuff about language-specific cues. Like for example, in English, stress tends to be on the first syllable of every word (at least the simple words infants tend to hear), so they could cue into that. But then how do they learn that rule when it's the complete opposite in other languages?

[burnt ledge]

maybe they just learn the rules for whatever languages they happen to be spoken to in

[steel blade]

Interspecies communication so cool

[storm sage]

Yeah but the question is how

[burnt ledge]

Hm but pointing at it being different in other languages seems to be the wrong difection

[storm sage]

The point is that the stress rule for segmentation can't be universal, it has to be learned somehow

Especially since languages like French have no obvious stress segmenting speech into words

[twilit hare]

I think you misunderstood me brother Im talking about seperate senses they hear words and they see things, so how do they specificy in their minds what is the thing be spoken about. Is it just compounding if they hear dad and hat do they add that together and see dads head looks weird kinda thing

[storm sage]

And other languages might be stress-final for words

[steel blade]

How do machines do it?

I wonder if its possible to train a machine to parse words

[storm sage]

That's also a very interesting question, see here for a relevant experiment #serious-discussion message

[steel blade]

Not necessarily understanding the words just parsing them

[storm sage]

You mean do segmentation for any language?

[steel blade]

Maybe babies hear a gasp for air and know its their cue

[storm sage]

You don't gasp for air between words

If you look at spectrograms of speech, there's no obvious gaps

[steel blade]

Lol

Okay they parse syllables then but thats crazy

[burnt ledge]

You know i initially came into this discussion understanding the question of "how does X do Y" as being at least partly an expression of doubt as to whether X does Y at all, but now im starting to think it really just means "by what process does X do Y?" to which i dont think anyone has even the beginnings of an answer to

[steel blade]

Because even adults have trouble with this at native speeds

[storm sage]

You might try to look for sentence-level gaps, but that only helps you segment words that occur at the end of a sentence

[twilit hare]

Unironically these discussions always make make me question Helen Keller

I just dont see how someone blind and deaf could learn abstract concepts

[storm sage]

I think one way, at least, would be to propose an algorithm you could implement

[steel blade]

Wasnt from birth

[storm sage]

Someone blind and deaf can certainly learn abstract concepts, our mind seems to be built for it

[twilit hare]

Yeah but it was from 18 months

[steel blade]

I think the development that happens in those 18 months are significant

[storm sage]

But yeah as a neuroscientist I think about this question every day because every system is so complex

[twilit hare]

How do you teach them concret concepts and how do you teach them abstract from those concrete concepts

[storm sage]

They at least still have some sensation, like touch, that you could use

[twilit hare]

Okay so how do they learn the concept of an apple from a plastic apple that feels identical

[burnt ledge]

(this isnt my view but) someone might say the complete opposite, that being unencumbered by the burden of sight and hearing a deaf and blind person might be more apt to learn abstract concepts?

[storm sage]

Infants are really good at parsing syllables yeah, they seem to be able to do it already like within the first month of being born, it's incredible

[twilit hare]

What

[storm sage]

How do you learn the difference between an apple and a plastic apple that looks and sounds identical

[twilit hare]

im gonna disagree with you how would you learn the concepts of relationships first if you couldnt see or hear

[twilit hare]

I guess she bit a lot of plastics apples huh

[steel blade]

I remember I rediscovered what a syllable was in highschool. Like you need vowels to make a syllable atleast in english

Its definitely different in other languages

[storm sage]

Yeah there's some Berber languages where it's been argued that essentially any consonant can form the nucleus of a syllable

Who needs vowels anyways

[storm sage]

Also they seem to do language learning while still in the womb—French newly-born infants and English newly-born infants respond to language in different ways!

[steel blade]

Honestly not that surprising the more I hear it

You body organs develop independently is my assumption and so should ya brain

[twilit hare]

Can confirm I was ready to surrender out of the womb

[steel blade]

Also its crazy to me how there is no different human species

Like living ykwim

[slate turret]

There will be

[twilit hare]

Lest not get into that

[steel blade]

I dont see how

[storm sage]

Wdym

[steel blade]

Like while you are in womb your brain will develop and will work while developing

Ill say a lot of things are weird about human births compared to other animals in this regard too

[storm sage]

Yea it is interesting, although many ppl have significant amounts of Neanderthal ancestry (like 2% DNA or smth)

[steel blade]

Actually mind boggling how some animals are born to walk while we arent

Im talking homo haballis or whatever

Like near cousins not being alive is insane almost unbelievable

[slate turret]

Human genetic intervention. First as research and then a product

[storm sage]

I suppose it makes sense if we occupied the same niches

[steel blade]

Other mammals have it the same tho

[storm sage]

Wdym by independently

[steel blade]

Like as you stay in the womb and your organs develop and become functional you dont need to wait on them to fully finish whatever that means

Idk this is why biology is annoying to me. Studying one system super complex its kinda weird to make any assumptions

[storm sage]

Wait I don't know what you mean by that, are you just saying that organs develop while you're in the womb or is there more to it

[slate turret]

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/us-student-arrested-for-jokingly-asking-benjamin-netanyahu-to-drop-bombs-on-her-college-11384602

[haughty panther]

You kinda have to wait for them to fully finish developing, premature birth is not a good thing even if it's a small fraction of the 9 months

Unless you mean something else

[haughty panther]

As in, it's not only brain that suffers from premature birth

[steel blade]

Yeah concurrent development

[steel blade]

Its unclear to me why

Like yes the outcomes are bad but why 9 months?

Like loads of things seem to fail if its premature

[magic python]

If transphobes can always tell why the can't they tell a good joke

[dire robin]

Oh great
Just saw a picture of the leader of my original country with a Neo-Nazi politician!

Under a post by the president where he calls him a hero

[crystal tapir]

Who?

[dire robin]

Oh he’s part of the government anyway

[ashen marsh]

I think itd help people get out of a resource centric mindset, and give more freedom to human expression

I think that the justifications underpinning "necessary dominations" like nationhood rely on a narrow perception of what it means to be human - "to consume resources, make babies, work a job so others can consume resources" etc

genetic modification seems like a very blunt challenge to that cultural perception

some people "have 2% neanderthal dna" seems like one of those resource-centric remarks. like, are homeless people fundamentally less human because they possess less money and produce fewer goods? in the same vein, what does it mean that someone "possess less human dna?"

its just such a weird thing for people to care about

[steel blade]

if you had a way to determine interspecies admixture it would be cool to know how that is expressed

Its important for ecological reasons for other animals

[ashen marsh]

i suppose, but why do we classify species to begin with?

[steel blade]

Long history but classification isnt always straightforward for every organism

Many animals or plants look very similar ya know

[ashen marsh]

yeah

something i think about every once in a while is classifications like that

like, people generally look the same in the same way animals look the same, but in different contexts, environments, etc, they can be completely different despite the classification still holding true

as in like uhh

bat at the zoo vs on some street pole

same animal but it means something radically new to me

(and same for numbers lol- like, people dont think about addition a lot)

[steel blade]

One factor differentiating species is ability to reproduce within populations

[ashen marsh]

oh thats a good point actually i hadnt considered that

[steel blade]

Its the main one but it has its failures

Its same reason why we call dog breeds breeds and not species even tho they look different

[ashen marsh]

ooh

yeah i get confused by that sometimes

something else too is that- although members of a species could reproduce not all do or can yk

like by classifying things by species it feels like we're characterizing them by that ability

[steel blade]

There isnt a one size fits all definition for these things either. I know there are other definitions for species too

[ashen marsh]

(for example i have a pink tag next to my name that is culturally related to that notion)

[ashen marsh]

ill be thinking about this

thank you for sharing your thoughts (i should sleep)

[slate turret]

The neanderthal comment is outdated now as there is evidence to show that they were about as intelligent as we were: article; paper

[slate turret]

But it does exist to give people justifications for treating others as lesser and remove the responsibility from the situation; the same kind of justification was also used for slavery

[ashen marsh]

on neanderthals using fire : ive been asking people how they do addition in their head and its very interesting to hear the wide array of interpretations that all look the same on paper

i do addition by seeing two real lines for each digit and drawing lines down on each, then sliding them to the right spot before pushing them back together

other people bound it and narrow it down to what it must be using like inductive logic

another person sees an addition table

there are quite a few

also, i dont know how to make a fire

[slate turret]

But you are capable of learning how to make a fire

[ashen marsh]

Is that the same?

And, how would i learn

[slate turret]

(You should probably sleep soon, but I'll comment on this) It's unfortunate the we do not value human expression and the creativity that we use to accomplish certain tasks as much as we do the accomplishment itself. It is something that demonstrates a form of intelligence that is not always reflected on the result. (And something that we cannot measure from the neanderthal data)

It does bring into question how to measure those alternative forms of thought and which ones to value. You could have a person who has many distinct thoughts but are never able to express them into any physical form. Thus, we would be difficult to measure them with current technology. You could have a person who has attempted multiplication all their life, with many creative variations on how to approach the problem, but never successfully completed multiplication (this is an analogy for higher maths). These, in isolation, do not have any value until you attach them to a result (i.e. the possibility that these techniques can still be used to get to the answer). If you value creativity, then these expressions can continue to make near misses and always purposefully miss the result because it would allow for more human expression.

[slate turret]

@upbeat basin It was meant to be more of an agreement to this train of thought than a blanket statement.

I edited the statement so that the context is clearer

[dry reef]

how jmuch harder are implicit integrations in comparison to normal integrations

[ashen marsh]

!! yes i i really love what you said here

[slate turret]

Referring to a general majority with the claim that culturally people value a resource-centric mindset more over an expressive/creative one

[ashen marsh]

i think value is one way to describe it, but to me it seems like an unconscious thing informed by societal (or even linguistic) contexts

you can only communicate ideas certain ways

[slate turret]

I forgot to say that these examples would still be considered forms of intelligence

[ashen marsh]

i think that people stop themselves short because they think they dont / wont "have" something

"i dont have what it takes, i havent learned that" etc

or even that an act of doing is only successful if they produce something

like do you need to complete a painting to express yourself

neanderthal produced fire therefore smart

(i beat myself up a lot for "abandoning" things before they are done)

[slate turret]

I'm not saying that I want others to think differently. I'm saying that's how things are. My position on this is that it is inherently useful for people to think this way in order to acquire resources, but if we ever start transitioning to a resource abundant world, then I believe that society should begin to value expressive/creative thought more.
Also, what Gray is saying right now tells me that it's also psychologically helpful to think this way too.

(Also please sleep)

[ashen marsh]

hahahaha okay yeah

tyyy for talking it was really nice and i am very happy

[slate turret]

Why I believe that is how things are, or the second statement on the transition?

It was more of Gray's claim than mine. I'm saying that's how society is right now. I don't think it should change for a while but bits of that alternative mentality could prove to be useful to people (like it was to Gray).

But since I am saying that we eventually should, I'll answer why we should in the future (besides the resource abundance thing)

[slate turret]

When we start having more technology that probes into our brains (invasive BCIs), we're likely going to have access to different forms of thought that cannot be expressed through text, image, video, or any currently known form of media. I expect that we'll be able to transmit those experiences to other people, and exploring all forms of thought will let us mix and match various thought processes that could have never been possible before. Much like our ability to manipulate video has allowed us to experience reality in a completely new way, various creative forms of thinking shared and modified across multiple people will let us experience reality in a new way as well. Less abstractly, it could be a lived "game" experience with other sensations included. It could be a customized "touch" of something that does not exist in the real world. It could be the entire tree of thought of all people who have attempted to solve a particular problem and you are providing your own creative avenue for approaching the problem. Having more creativity available would allow for a lot more possibilities with this technology, so that's why I would want people to value creative thought more in the future.

Yeah, for any time there's a technology that allows people to express themselves easier, people should be creative and express themselves more now that it's easier

Not even that it is "useful" but that it would make things more interesting.

[solid falcon]

Hey, can anyone give me advice about how I’m feeling as far as academics and transferring and such after I receive my associates

[sharp sage]

if you look at ancient middle eastern nation states and how rich and developed they are for the time but if you look at them now its just some broke arab countries

[ionic star]

and if you don't look, it's like a cloud, grey and large

[left kite]

probably more reliable copper vendors now tho

[ionic wraith]

[sharp sage]

... But we define (or at least use) the word good to mean skilled?

"Good is subjective"
"No rational creature can ever be good" sounds like an oxymoron to me

[old oak]

Are we referring to that when we say someone's "good" at something?

There are several adjectives stronger than "good", so one of those would make more sense to refer to complete mastery.

[sharp sage]

Then just say it lmfao, conventionally being good at something is just being more skilled at it than a layman

[old oak]

Those are some of them

[rapid valve]

Bleh

[wild lantern]

Usually when people say somebody is "good" at math they are making a relative+subjective statement...

Point being that people can be "good" at math if you actually read what the person making the statement means.

Great so if we reduce the term to something where nobody can be "good" at anything then nobody is good at anything.

[sharp sage]

Why are you thinking objectively about a subjective quality?

[sharp yarrow]

Yes

[wild lantern]

Lemme just reduce this word to something totally useless that is clearly not what ppl mean when they say it.

This is not what most people mean when they say "good"

I've done a fair amount of phil courses in undergrad

[sharp sage]

But hes capitalizing the Good

[wild lantern]

Go figure one of the first things you learn about in intro phil courses is to actually read/understand what people are saying.

[sharp sage]

What he meant is basically no one is flawless, which is absolutely trivial

[wild lantern]

It is hard to make a good argument for/against something if you are accidentally or willfully misreading the things you are responding to.

Who up strawing they mans!?

No I didn't?

[wild lantern]

Read the IF in the sentence

People can have opinions. I don't see why this is a problem.

[stable vigil]

If we say truly we are basically putting it up against even the unknown parts of mathematics

[wild lantern]

My point is that you are responding to a definition of the word "good" that is not actually what people mean when they say good.

[tall marsh]

We all have different interpretations of it

it is polysemous

[wild lantern]

Sure, but if you want to argue against a persons point you have to respond to their interpretation of it or else you're just arguing against something else.

[stable vigil]

Also I don't get what is this conversation is talking abt are you referring to perfect knowledge of something or what?

[tall marsh]

Yup, in maths- what makes you 'good' at it (I think)

[stable vigil]

But good is subjective

[wild lantern]

We are all platonists deep down

I can't finish my plato joke

The punchline is left as an exercise

[stable vigil]

There is no true best in the end

[wild lantern]

People tend not to mean that when they say best

[stable vigil]

Yeah that's the thing

[wild lantern]

"You live in the best house on this street" does not mean "your house is flawless" for example

"Best dog in show" does not mean "this dog is flawless"

As another

St anselm headass

[stable vigil]

I mean best just means best whatever's greatest in a group or when I mean true there can truly be nothing that is perfect

[wild lantern]

Slowass fucking discord ban/bot

Ah bot got em

Sorry about that y'all

[tall marsh]

truly

[stable vigil]

Damn I forgot the mods had pink tags

real brother

[wild lantern]

Basically nobody in math is thinking about this. This falls under philosophy of religion. There have been attempts by folks like godel and other logicians to try and discuss/formalize this kind of thing. But it's pretty fringe.

Not saying there isn't some mathematical overlap

[stable vigil]

True, there is no true standard or something that can be constant to show us what falls in there

[wild lantern]

But if you actually want to study this it is very firmly in philosophy of religion

[stable vigil]

For all we could know another world could consider something we say as bad as good

Religion is basically our moral compass in this world or people who rise into authority to say

But its not like we would know what is good and wrong on our own

Damn bro

[trail vortex]

Not necessarily

Yup

Define morals

One could argue morality is an evolutionary trait.
For instance, it would not have been beneficial for human precursors to kill members of their hunting band, because that would undermine their efforts in the long run. Therefore, those that favoured life over murder naturally survived longer to evolve

In that case, even animals can exhibit morality

[stable vigil]

Or one could also argue morality is opinionated through religion and laws.

[trail vortex]

We don't 'have to' thrive. It's basic logic that any species that doesn't 'thrive 'will die off. So it's either we thrive or die.

[trail vortex]

It's objectively wrong to kill innocent people for pleasure. That's not opinionated, and no religion not law can justify that

[manic ibex]

This might be a super weird question for this server, but I'm a 2nd year undergrad student planning to transfer to university wanting to become a data scientist but unsure what to major in for my first two years of undergrad. Mathematics or Statistics is the two choices. I feel like Mathematics but then I'm not sure what track I should go in based on my goals. You guys seem well-versed in this and if you guys know what is best, that would be greatly appreciated.

[trail vortex]

Again, it's not necessary. It's just a result of natural selection.

[sharp sage]

Wrong place to ask, this is the politics chat

[manic ibex]

mb

[stable vigil]

But how can you say it's wrong tho if those people believe that it's right if they have been subjected to it there entire lives

[trail vortex]

I suppose so

How?

Give me an example

[trail vortex]

Because it's objective.

How did you get to that conclusion

[wild lantern]

Pro mental backflips

[trail vortex]

Sacrificing others would undermine the survival of others, as illustrated by my earlier example

[stable vigil]

I mean if that culture or type of thought were to thrive in the end would we know if it's wrong if enough people did it. I'm not sure

[trail vortex]

Immorality would lead to less survival, in the sense that over long periods of time (billions of years) our species would be undermined

Balance between what

[stable vigil]

Would that mean morality is based of survival

[trail vortex]

But it wouldn't thrive. If it was normal for everyone to kill others for pleasure, we'd eventually die off.

[trail vortex]

That's one way to see it

Survival and prosperity go hand in hand. They're not opposites, so I don't get the balance you mean

Dawg what

[stable vigil]

It wouldn't reach a point where we would prosper from it but there's also another thought if a culture moral was mainly based of survival if killing of the weak was natural how long could it last before there own would rebel against there views I mean if it was viewed like that for there entire lives would they feel any remorse for it? also sorry I am so bad at using punctuations

Thanks 👍🏻

[old oak]

We already do

[haughty panther]

i do
you are sentenced to death for not knowing that

[true zinc]

good morning fellow creatures

oh this was not discussion oops

[old oak]

Eh, close enough

[maiden panther]

This is discussion, serious discussion.

[solid falcon]

I am beyond stressed, so I am 32 and decided to return back to school in 2024. Well I am doing great, but that's not the issue. I went to school for several years ago (last date of attendance was Spring 2017) and I had a 1.83 GPA with 99 Credits. Well for my major right now, I have a 3.81 and it's continually climbing. I know those grades follow me but I wonder how much it's truly going to effect me. I was invited to Phi Theta Kappa and this semester I am receiving two academic awards and an orange ribbon (it's an award for contributions). I finish at this community college in December with an Associates in Mathematics and Education. It's truly eating away at me that grades from 10+ years ago will haunt me till the end of time. Should I be stressed or do schools take into account recent coursework and a change in work ethic?

[stoic tusk]

Uhhh

[odd narwhal]

What do you think?

Please do share with the class

[stoic tusk]

I'm the furniture in the corner

[sharp sage]

Wait what did he get banned

[next schooner]

Yes

[odd narwhal]

Oh well rat decided to ban, but I have a feeling that guy wouldn't have answered anyways

[stoic tusk]

damn

[verbal quest]

great, rat
now we'll never know

[sharp sage]

Cool pfp

[stoic tusk]

We were on a cliffhanger and fell off the cliff.

[sharp sage]

Wait why did he get banned i dont see extremist/incel ideology

[stoic tusk]

intuition

[verbal monolith]

you shouldn’t be stressed imo. universities and employers take into account changes in work ethic, and since like 10 years passed for you, the context shows improvement

[next schooner]

I chose to ban them based on their message history from yesterday where they were spreading anti-psychiatry misinformation bs

[stoic tusk]

pre emptive strik- nvm

[verbal monolith]

ohhhh i remember that, “i’d prefer if someone took ashwaganda instead of prescribed medications” lollll

[odd narwhal]

Their most recent messages were definitely a dogwhistle of some kind

Probably a nazi

[next schooner]

When considering that alongside "this user's probably bout to say some nazi shit" yk

I'd just rather not

[stoic tusk]

so he somehow passed the any % ban speedrun but managed to take the longest time

[next schooner]

Oh nah we've had users last like more than a year

[sharp sage]

Ok back on topic

[stoic tusk]

Oh

[sharp sage]

Who knows how many are hiding

[verbal monolith]

at least the use of #serious-discussion as honeypot for nazis is successful

[bleak sable]

@soft aspen you back?

[stoic tusk]

Then probably the most intentionally unintentional one. He probably got the sudden death achievement too

[sharp sage]

She got banned iirc

[next schooner]

The kinda user who you look at and you just know that one day they're gonna say something bannable but can't quite justify it

[odd narwhal]

Can't you retake some of those courses, or otherwise take extra courses and leave the bad ones off your transcript?

[bleak sable]

she got muted for 22 hours

[sharp sage]

Well she left.

[stoic tusk]

why exactly 22

[bleak sable]

BTW i still hate itsuki

[stoic tusk]

what did I do 😭

I'm like barely online these days

[bleak sable]

now you dont remmember shaming me for not having gif perms

[sharp sage]

Innocent until proven guilty, but this server isnt a country anyways so are vibe bans allowed now

[stoic tusk]

Fahhh

[bleak sable]

it hurt me alot

[indigo wraith]

james doakes is with you

[verbal quest]

Moey's dedication to this person they don't even know is impressive

[solid falcon]

Considering the course work was at a different school no. It was also in Accounting so unrelated to what I am doing now

Also you're not able to leave off transcripts I do not believe

[full hornet]

the axe forgets, but the tree remembers

[verbal quest]

THIS IS NOT EVEN THE FIRST TIME THEY SAID THIS 🤡

[stoic tusk]

Ima make this the quote for tmmr

[bleak sable]

check ur dms

[odd narwhal]

That's pretty crazy. I didn't go to undergrad in the US but as long as you had all your prereqs fulfilled you could leave superfluous classes off the transcript in my UG

[sharp sage]

<@&268886789983436800> off topic + what the fu is this

[stoic tusk]

Soliciting dms*

[bleak sable]

wow

what u mean of topic

[odd narwhal]

Please move this to #discussion or #chill

[sharp sage]

This is for politics and stuff not asking dms

[stoic tusk]

I was about to be sniped.

[bleak sable]

bet

lets move to politics

[odd narwhal]

I'm not sure I really understand why those grades even affect your GPA if the courses aren't counting towards your current major

[verbal monolith]

as in

[bleak sable]

israel or palestine

[odd narwhal]

Removed

[verbal monolith]

really?

[verbal monolith]

thanks

[next schooner]

really indeed

[verbal quest]

if it's the same school it doesn't matter
it all goes in

[verbal monolith]

amazing honeypot success rate lads

[solid falcon]

I am more worried about the transfer process, I know at every school grades refresh -- but I have to get in first lol

[verbal quest]

but how do you get 99 credits BEFORE returning for an associate's
that's the real question

[solid falcon]

I didn't return to the same school

I am at my local community college returning after a long break

[odd narwhal]

In that case do you even need to report your previous educational experience when transferring?

[solid falcon]

In the US it's a requirement

[verbal quest]

eh, there are requirements and REQUIREMENTS
idk the process of discovery, but yea, they ask

[mint patio]

So I think I accidentally lied on my resume...I conflated two different terms and now I got an interview for a role that'd really push my career forward but it might require using that skill that I misinterpreted and now I don't know wtf to do

[inland raft]

Can you learn that skill in time?

[long orchid]

is it true that math is far more prereq heavy than other fields of study?

oh there's a convo happening, carry on

[mint patio]

That's the thing, it's something you just kinda learn by doing it and struggling with it. It's called commissioning, basically starting up a system for the first time on the customer's site and fixing any issues you encounter and making sure everything is good. I've done "commissioning" at my factory (that's called factory acceptance testing), but real commissioning (on-site) can be pretty different because the customer may have problems that you didn't have in your factory (bad power, leaks, faulty instrumentation, etc)

So I can't learn it without doing it, but I think this job assumes that I've already done it!

[eager shore]

Hewa hewa
any YPT study buddy

[sharp sage]

not the place for this.

[mint patio]

I don't think so at all 🤔 Math is different than a lot of subjects because there's so many places you can start from, it's like a tree. Sure, once you get into more advanced math, the prereqs become very apparent, but how is that different than any other subject?

[eager shore]

uh..

[sharp sage]

please go ask somewhere else otherwise i will have to report to moderators, and dont reply to this

[long orchid]

like ok i do ML primarily, and there i can mostly follow papers in what i'm interested in etc
but for math a paper is out of the limits for me, it seems

then again i've read more ML than math -- but if i finish dummit and foote i'm still far from reading a research algebra paper (whatever that means) it seems...

[snow ice]

#discussion or just #chill

!redir

[quasi jetty]

This channel is only for on-topic discussion. Please take casual conversation to #discussion or #chill.

[eager shore]

I'm sorry
but i find this channel the most "right" one since the discussion ppl where sending memes n didnt want to kill the humor so i took my message back, and for the math discussion its literally math

[mint patio]

Well yeah, of course! Basic goop/ring/field theory is elementary compared to a research paper, just like a college thermodynamics course is nothing compared to a research paper in statistical mechanics. They're both prerequisites for the other, but that doesn't mean they require any more prerequisites than anything else -- in fact, I'd argue that my example was pretty bad, since I think thermodynamics takes more prerequisites than elementary AA

[snow ice]

#study-discussion then if you want to study

[sharp sage]

... nope. this is for politics. plus we dont do study partners here i think. AND DO NOT REPLY

[eager shore]

chill will do it
thanks

[eager shore]

my bad for not having all channels

[snow ice]

it ok just go to chill now pls

[long orchid]

fair, but like after dummit and foote what else do i gotta read

[mint patio]

That entirely depends what type of algebra you want to study

[long orchid]

like i guess my weird internal benchmark is AG, and after d&f i need eisenbud then vakil then god knows what

[halcyon aurora]

After thinking a moment about this, I wouldn't merely take a bet that you will be able to this job once you get the role. It's probably accurate that you should contact them and ask if they mean on site (?) commissioning or factory commissioning (maybe it is a factory commissioning role and you were confused). At any rate, if you are correct and get the job, what should happen on the first day? That's just my two cents.

[mint patio]

You're on the right path then, by the time you get done with Vakil I'm sure you'll realize what niche of AG you're into, and then from there it's just exploring research papers and looking for the obscure resources that talk about your niche

You can look up what kind of AG/AA ML uses and start from there after Vakil, now that you'll have the prerequisite foundations for it (I have no clue what math ML uses besides linear algebra lols)

[long orchid]

it's just a lot compared to the ML prereq i needed (just one book), and also idk if i want to learn AG on the side at all since my career goal is ML

maybe i'd do ML theory, which is fucking wild and definitely beyond me (that also requires a lot of prereq i think)

[mint patio]

I worry that that'll make me look even more underqualified and disqualify me from going further 💀 I guess nothing happens on the first day

[inland raft]

I say you try your luck

[mint patio]

I'm only a little worried about it because the process of commissioning is very similar to FAT, it's just different in that you're no longer in a controlled setting and you've got people watching over your shoulder lol. So I feel like I know the basics of commissioning but I haven't "done it" yet

[inland raft]

I have faith in you. You can do it

Fake it till you make it

[mint patio]

Yes sir! Thank you friend :)

[inland raft]

No worries

[mint patio]

Can you show me some examples/context? Like, what does the ML you're studying right now look like? What separates that from "ML Theory", and what does ML Theory look like?

[halcyon aurora]

I guess it depends on your competency. The issue is whether it'z less professional to say no somehow, versus less professional to work a job you utterly cannot work when you thought you couldn't originally.

But I get wanting to like, maintain composure and be applicable

[long orchid]

i mostly read mechanistic interpretability, which is a very new field admittedly and still has a lot of weirdos (tho i promise it's legit lol), so a paper there might be https://arxiv.org/abs/2511.05541

theory is much more mathematical -- instead of empirically testing out different architecture choices or algorithms you attempt to derive them from first principles, or at least give a from-first-principles explanation for observed behavior

[mint patio]

I'm pretty new to my career (engineering) so I wouldn't say I'm experienced or super competent yet, but my specific niche is also known for being thrown in the deep end and figuring it out by teaching yourself how to swim (as you're drowning). So I don't know how to evaluate "competency" here; the role was labeled as entry level to be fair, so maybe I'm overestimating the expectations

[halcyon aurora]

competency, not incompetency

I see that you are an engineer, and yeah what you say is definitely applicable heavily in engineering roles. idk, maybe I should hush up

[mint patio]

That's what I meant, sorry! Didn't realize I put an "in" in there lol

[mint patio]

Hm, I guess I'd have to see a resource on the theory to evaluate how much heavier the prerequisites are

[mint patio]

No, I appreciate your input regardless! Anything that helps me think is valuable :)

[long orchid]

https://arxiv.org/abs/2310.20360

much more theory heavy @mint patio see for instance chapter 9

[halcyon aurora]

I had the personal experience of working in an engineering job I was woefully underprepared for, in an organization that was not a good fit, and I guess I was speaking from that experience. I guess I disagree with many on the cost of being ahead or whatever. So my only point was like, if you know your limits you may have a good instinct.

[halcyon aurora]

I'm talking like, out of college to project manager support type jump, I was basically a boss of bosses by some miracle of the hiring process.

[long orchid]

though i think this book is overformalized in the extreme, see for instance the definition of polynomial on page 478 (just landed on it)

[sudden bone]

Hi

What do you think on this :

if children aren't getting insulin why should you

[mint patio]

The majority of this looks like it'd be covered by a standard sequence in analysis to me (+ elementary LA and probability), which is a very common set of courses for a budding mathematician to start with. I think it looks a lot worse than it is because it's crammed full of symbols...My point being that I don't think the prerequisites are any heavier than a paper discussing the mathematical theory behind any other applied science (perhaps even lighter; for example, Finite Element Theory uses a lot of differential geometry, which definitely has heavier math prerequisites)

[silent junco]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/268882317391429632/1493431847944716370/what-joe-biden-joe-biden.png?ex=69ee1b8b&is=69ecca0b&hm=54bfca9ed4ac90fb61ecf23e0e8b0e45ed577360cd386a47096eb0533c6d1d77&

[next schooner]

baby's first thought on ethics

[long orchid]

interestinggg

can you explain definiton 9.7.1 in a different channel then xoxo

[mint patio]

I can try 🤔

[sharp sage]

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[next schooner]

anyway the ethical distinction is clear; i am value-accretive. Children, on the other hand, are speculative human futures with uncertain yield. In a rational market, insulin should flow towards proven performers.

[sudden bone]

that is not something what i think 😭 a person was talking about lev, came to this

[next schooner]

why invest resources into high-liability, low-output organisms (children) whose path to profitability is entirely speculative. adults are generally mature, value-producing assets with positive projected ROI

[sharp sage]

but the market is not , why would you expect that?

[sharp sage]

but we like gambling

[sudden bone]

bro saying funds going to children is making difficut for him getting medical facility

[next schooner]

cus i got EBITDA and children aint

also the question evidently was not about what the market does but what it should do

any red-blooded capitalist can see the wisdom of denying children healthcare

next question

[halcyon aurora]

ratgirl response goes pretty ham

[sharp sage]

Avatar of unhingedness they say

[flat karma]

what siriuss topic on

[odd narwhal]

Incredibly Board of Directors Quarterly Earnings-pilled

[halcyon aurora]

I almost got myself muted again for unseriousness so yeah

[halcyon aurora]

Something about the four nations

[odd narwhal]

I think we should work on getting insulin to everyone instead of denying it to more people

[halcyon aurora]

Delay insulin Deny insulin Defend insulin - someone who doesn't cares mantra

[halcyon aurora]

in seriousness though yeah

[quasi raven]

Hey I have a question with multiple choice

[next schooner]

u some kinda commie

ykw i'm probably the last user who should be in #serious-discussion

bad example

[odd narwhal]

https://tenor.com/view/don't-make-me-tap-the-sign-simpsons-bus-gif-5399805801037462082

[old oak]

I have never felt this insulted in my life

[sudden bone]

true but the arguement was why the funds are going to the poor children in africa than invest for people in country which is bs

[odd narwhal]

Which funds exactly are going to children in africa? From which country? Funds for what? Where is this argument? I'm not finding it

In the US for example, insulin prices are artificially inflated. We could easily make insulin cheap, like the inventor intended when he sold the patent for a penny

[sudden bone]

like charity

[odd narwhal]

Charities operate on donations, which largely come from private persons and organisations

I don't understand what you're talking about

[sudden bone]

charity should not be sent maybe
but nvm you wont understand the context

[next schooner]

yo fr tho

is this true? did i miss a section when reading das kapital?

[odd narwhal]

So we shouldn't have charities?

[next schooner]

i even read it in the original german and everything

[odd narwhal]

You realise if the charities didn't exist that money wouldn't suddenly go towards other things

Or are you saying charities should only be allowed to contribute within the country they are operating in?

[long orchid]

both of those sound incredibly stupid lol

[odd narwhal]

I don't think this user actually has a cogent point

They think so much money is going to children in africa

[next schooner]

tbf i dont speak german so i didn't know what marx was on about most of the time

[long orchid]

did ratgirl's username change from 1 cigarette to 3 cigarette

[next schooner]

ye

[sudden bone]

they would go somewhere

[odd narwhal]

How do you think charities work?

Genuine question

[sudden bone]

true

[odd narwhal]

I'm trying to understand the framework in which you are operating

[sharp sage]

to quote

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul

[odd narwhal]

Let's not be needlessly antagonistic

[sudden bone]

bro was talking about lev's, then why lev's shouldnt be cheap if charity is going outside why not invest it there

[sudden bone]

copypasta

[odd narwhal]

You are acting like international and local charities are mutually exclusive

Both exist

[next schooner]

when your only knowledge of foreign aid comes from the essay "Do They Know It's Christmas?" by Geldof et al. (1984)

[long orchid]

because charity is a voluntary action by private individuals

[sharp sage]

do they even know that

[sudden bone]

speaking as a whole

[long orchid]

not an official action by an elected body -- if charity didn't exist those private individuals wouldn't invest locally

they just wouldn't give at all

[odd narwhal]

But you can't speak about charities as a whole

They are individual organisations with no connection between them usially

[long orchid]

that's the point of making charitable donations deductible -- for self interested individuals to do something for the good of not themselves

[odd narwhal]

If you stopped giving money to one charity, that doesn't mean that money automatically goes to a different charity

[thin dew]

Hi ratgirl

[odd narwhal]

And people donate both to local and international charities

[next schooner]

Is this just some dumbass argument against foreign aid by somebody who doesn't even know what an NGO is

Actually incoherent

[sudden bone]

it was about rich people and organisations as a whole

[long orchid]

it's just another dumb nationalist take imo

[sudden bone]

perhaps true

[tawdry pecan]

blunt force trauma (smoke it)

[thin dew]

A hammer

[stuck gyro]

?

[sharp sage]

what the heck are you talking about
oops wrong reply

[sharp sage]

what is an NGO

[rapid valve]

Non governmental organisation

[stuck gyro]

We are talking about sharp object

Like a sword, or a knife

[thin dew]

Gets the job done 👍

[tawdry pecan]

national geopolitical org

[next schooner]

ooooooookay i do NOT like this question or its implications

[sharp sage]

ratgirl where are you acquiring those cigarettes from

[narrow lava]

What are all the commands in this server like ,rccw and !status or idk

[stuck gyro]

What do you think it implies?

[sharp sage]

!<factoid> are factoids, they are implemented by @quasi jetty , meanwhile ,<command> and LaTeX rendering are implemented by @fathom swallow , btw this is not the place for this

[narrow lava]

Alr thanks

[magic python]

Knowing about cooking also like trivially answers that question, no..?

[next schooner]

I believe I have to stop this as a matter of safety: nobody on this server can advise on which methods or tools make deeper wounds, or how to make injuries worse.

If this is just a physics/materials question, please reframe it away from injury mechanics and don’t test it with blades. If this is about you or someone else, please step away from the razor/knife now and message ModMail or someone you trust. If anyone has already been hurt, especially if there is heavy bleeding, a deep/gaping wound, numbness, or you feel at risk of doing more, please get urgent help immediately.

[cedar shore]

offering modmail is wild

[stuck gyro]

I know how to make bad deep wounds friend

I am just generaly intrested it's like one of those morbid questions you have at 3 am when you cant sleep

[next schooner]

Right. Then you already understand why this cannot be a public discussion here.

Even if this is only morbid curiosity, the question is about testing injury depth with razors/blades, so we are not going to discuss the mechanics or compare methods. Drop this line of conversation immediately.

[next schooner]

You would be surprised

[inland raft]

what's happening

[magic python]

Under utilitarianism, isn't transphobia just wrong.

[cedar shore]

whats your reasoning

[stuck gyro]

I wanna know how much does speeding sharp object slow down when cutting and how much diffrent is it between slicing and chopping

[stuck gyro]

Here I sound as AI but I hope it's better

[next schooner]

Alright, well that's quite clearly more of a physics question and you'll probably get more insightful answers in the Physics Server listed in #old-network

[timid zenith]

Remove the first 2 words and this message still makes perfect sense

[magic python]

Well first of all, just how many people it hurts. It hurts more than just trans people quite often, especially anyone gender non-conforming (as well as family and friends).

It also leads to some rather unpleasant things I can see in no world as being classed as "happiness" and I highly doubt the joy transphobes get is in any way equal to the pain victims get

[magic python]

"Isn't transphobia just wrong." Sounds like I don't know for sure, I am asking a question.

[stuck gyro]

Thanks

[next schooner]

discussing utilitarianism in the serious discussion channel is wild /j

[timid zenith]

Okay fine fair fair

[magic python]

Fine

Can't even discuss how horribly transphobia affects quite a lot of people, where are my inalienable rights.

[timid zenith]

!no1stamendment

[quasi jetty]

Lookie here. This is a discord server. You do not have inalienable rights.

[magic python]

But I have to! This is America! Totally!

[sharp sage]

maam i think you misread, this is not America its Mathematics

ok no off topic

[magic python]

It's kinda insane how much transphobia (and other forms of hating groups, i just know more about transphobias affects) hurts people outside of said group.

[magic python]

Lies

[cedar shore]

I think it is quite hard to measure the pleasure transphobes get from their cruelty vs the suffering the victims face objectively but the point does make sense intuitively

[magic python]

Well, in some cases, multiple people suffer when one transphobic individual hates on a victim, trans or not

Which, at least in how I understand, would naturally count as greater suffering than joy as that suffering leaves lasting scars many of the times

[civic pivot]

may I join this discussion

[magic python]

I mean nobody is stopping you so long as you don't like defend transphobia

[civic pivot]

the original question that seems to have started this has disappeared

[magic python]

Hm? On my end it's here, i can resend it if wanted

[civic pivot]

can you? itd be great :)

[magic python]

"Under utilitarianism, isn't transphobia just wrong. "

[civic pivot]

interesting statement damn lol who said that

[magic python]

Me

😭

[civic pivot]

isnt transphobia just wrong under.. everything

[magic python]

I mean you could technically construct a viewpoint where it is seen as moral

As transphobes tend to do.

I'm also more wondering if I understand utilitarianism correctly, and if it's feasible to use it in an argument against transphobia in this way

Sure it wouldn't be a good argument, but it's better than any argument I've heard transphobes use against us

[civic pivot]

oh you're trans?

I was originally interested in this because I'm detrans, biologically female and wanted to be a guy for like ages

[frosty zephyr]

Can someone please help me out and suggest me university in Europe
I want it to be English taught and a computer engineering 4year programmed
Uni should be well accredited with good job/campus selection
Please please pleaseeee suggest I’m v stressed

[magic python]

Surprised you didn't know, but yes, I am, stereotypically so.

[civic pivot]

I didn't dig into your profile or character that much lol

[magic python]

Oh, interesting, did you end up actually transitioning or just wanted to prior to realizing?

[civic pivot]

socially, I did. when I could anyway. I also binded. but nothing past that

[sharp sage]

idk.

[magic python]

Oh, how did you find out you weren't if I may ask? I've never actually met someone who talked about detransitioning (without well being groomed out of it).

Did you regret ever transitioning? Or did you see it as a learning experience?

[frosty zephyr]

No please seriously

[sharp sage]

its not even the appropriate place to ask this, i suggest asking somewhere else not here

[cedar shore]

TUM? if ure fine with germany

[frosty zephyr]

It’s titled serious discussion

[cedar shore]

ah i guess they dont offer it in english

[frosty zephyr]

I tried but no not apt
Not in English and I want comp engineering 4 year course

[civic pivot]

this is a very personal thing for me, but I hope its of value for you. I initially transitioned due to two factors, an early sexual assault and a very shitty adult in my life. it affected how I perceived being a woman, femininity, and such. I also noticed people treated me with higher value before they found out i was female. this feeling slowly wore off as I grew older, as I became more comfortable with my body and healed from my trauma. this is also why that, despite me supporting trans people, i am generally against physically/irreverisbly transitioning minors
I don't regret it (aside from the effects binding had on me) but it was definitely a huge learning experience on how I perceive my identity

[cedar shore]

why does it have to be a 4 year course

[frosty zephyr]

Becuase yes
Comp engineer is a 4 year course

[cedar shore]

huh, a lot of courses in EU are 3 years

[frosty zephyr]

Okay suggest me anyy I’m v stressed rn n I have run out of options

[magic python]

Oh interesting! I can see why you have that take, though, what counts as irreversible? Most operations is know of can be reversed by others (though some are harder to reverse than they were to do).

I can totally see why that decision has been made even if I can't genuinely say I fully agree, due to how my experiences have been.

[cedar shore]

trinity college in dublin might be nice

maybe UK unis

[frosty zephyr]

Yes but it’s a bit far from where I live

[cedar shore]

what are your preferred countries

[odd narwhal]

Yea, actual gender affirming surgery almost never happens until the age of consent, but the question is whether puberty blockers are considered irreversible, since they largely are reversible albeit with some permanent side effects

[magic python]

That's more what I was asking, as yes, surgery requires another surgery to "reverse" and I believe never goes back to prior

[civic pivot]

anything that would significantly harm the purpose of that specific body part. anything relating to the uterus, for example, that would lead to infertility in the future is something i am against (for minors). same for some HRT methods, iirc (I'm not too knowledgeable on this)
for example I recently saw a case of a woman being arrested after kidnapping her minor son for complete bottom surgery, that's something I'm not a fan of lol

[magic python]

And well, hormones can cause things needing surgery to fix

[odd narwhal]

I think using these extreme extreme edge cases that would have been abusive without the trans aspect to draw wider conclusions is ill-advised

[magic python]

Oh interesting, I never thought of fertility being an issue people considered here.

[civic pivot]

it's just how I see it, now that I'm an adult, if I got top surgery or something else in my teens, i'd be really upset right now lol

[magic python]

Fair enough

[civic pivot]

especially now that I really care for my fertility and actively try to look after it

[odd narwhal]

There are equally (and likely more) cases of trans teens being denied gender-affirming care and taking their lives over it

[magic python]

I won't lie here, I wish even surgery was available for minors due to personal reasons as well, but I see why others are VERY against it

[civic pivot]

shin can you get rid of that dickhead lol

[odd narwhal]

It was done before I was even able to click on the profile

[magic python]

Or even when allowed taking their lives due to transphobia

[civic pivot]

I wished the same when I was younger, but we just need to keep in mind - people that age really don't know where they'll be in 3-4 years

[odd narwhal]

This might be true for some people, but definitely not for everyone

I know many gay and trans people who pretty much fully figured themselves out during their teens in that respect

[magic python]

I can assume due to this I should still be alive at the very least

[civic pivot]

I've heard and seen this first hand. it's a shame, it's definitely a tricky situation because of the stakes on both sides of the argument

[magic python]

I can't say anything for if I was denied any care

[civic pivot]

that takes a huge chunk of emotional intelligence that a lot of people just don't have

btw shin you do calisthenics? lol

[odd narwhal]

I did 7 years ago

Still in that server

[civic pivot]

same

[magic python]

I mean, I was diagnosed prior to becoming 7, I've wanted surgery for two years by now, even known which type I wanted, I'd say I shouldn't be denied due to "Oh you may regret it" because I'd much rather have regrets than have nothing

[odd narwhal]

Sometimes I wonder how people like Nick and Antranik are doing but lowkey idrc

[civic pivot]

oh may I ask how old you are car?

[magic python]

Wait not 2 years what am I on about, since I was 12-13 years, not "for 2 years"

[odd narwhal]

And that's why the standard for getting HRT legally is very high, and other lower impact treatments are always pursued first

[magic python]

I don't enjoy disclosing my exact age despite it being easily findable, but I am a minor

[magic python]

2 and 12 both have a 2 and my mind is just dying ig

I think I've been on HRT for about a year, I can't lie, I do have regrets, but I know if I didn't start it then I'd've not been in a good state in the future, I took my one chance

[civic pivot]

so in your mind it's just the price you have to pay?

[magic python]

Especially considering how young I was exposed to some knowledge I shouldn't have

[odd narwhal]

I 100% don't intend to discount your experience, but it is important to consider that you are at the end of the day an extreme edge case, and that research shows the vast majority of even detransitioners do it for social reasons rather than because they don't identify with that gender anymore.

What you described as your experience doesn't sound similar to the experience of any trans person (both minor and adult) that I've encountered or read about

I also agree with car that imperfect treatment that keeps you alive is better than perfect treatment you might not get to experience since you'll be dead

[civic pivot]

oh yeah you're very right, I know I'm definitely an outlier, there's a lot of different factors that'd be different to what you've seen

the 0.5% of the bell curve

[magic python]

I'd deal with daily pain if it meant I could be real for once in my life, I've actively said I'd be fine with periods if I was able to feel real, and I've had people in know who couldn't walk due to them.

Based on the age i was exposed to some things, I don't think I'd be very are right now without even this flawed way to treat it with too low of doses

[halcyon aurora]

This conversation is fascinating I just wanted to announce my presence and be a fly on the wall

[magic python]

Even assuming all my pain over the past 8+ months was directly from my HRT, I can't stop it.

[sharp sage]

I believe the technical term is "lurking"

[civic pivot]

i'd just like to add that I still have the same feelings I had back then, the way I perceive being a male, (and I believe that to an extent, every woman feels this way) but along with the social reasons I also just found a way to accept womanhood and do the things I admired in masculinity in my own way, or just keep it as a wish for another life

[magic python]

Idve dealt with that inability to eat on and off for hours a day for months if it meant my dosing would actually work

[sharp sage]

And that is an assumption, btw is the hospital fee in the US so expensive that you cant get a checkup or what

[civic pivot]

I think it's kind of obvious from my profile that I don't mind being masculine or hiding that I'm a female lol, maybe I've always just admired the respect men get 🤷

[halcyon aurora]

Yeah I do lurk quite a bit

[magic python]

Mate it's been months, no physical symptoms, all of it has been horrible mental stuff outside of the bit at the start.

[civic pivot]

that's really fascinating, considering thats one of the first things i'd rid from my body lol

[odd narwhal]

My apologies for implying that, I misunderstood you before. It does sound from what you're describing like your perception of your gender identity has shifted somewhat

[magic python]

I mean I already go through lots of pain, atleast physical pain has easier treatment

[odd narwhal]

This is definitely something I've also seen, with people thinking they are trans and then later finding their comfortable place on the gender spectrum

[civic pivot]

"Women are born with pain built in. It's our physical destiny."

[magic python]

I don't actually know how much pain I am in these days

It's supposedly bad if other people are to be trusted

[latent edge]

Interesting...

[magic python]

But I know a lot of it is caused by imposter syndrome.

I'd give almost anything to feel real, even if it meant monthly pain that would immobilize me sometimes.

[civic pivot]

during those "trans" years i mostly identified as genderfluid, I think I'm at the point where I just don't care or know how to balance out the masculine and the feminine whenever I want to
chameleon, if you will

[civic pivot]

this is the only server where I have pronouns

[magic python]

The pain is arguably made worse by the fact I just don't feel it anymore, which I've heard it's uh not a good thing

[odd narwhal]

Ideally I'd like gender questioning teens to undergo a psych evaluation, then be put on puberty blockers together with appropriate psychological support, and eventually evaluated for HRT

[halcyon aurora]

Honestly this is the most reasonable reaction I've ever heard

[civic pivot]

they make suits for women and skirts for guys

[odd narwhal]

Skirts for guys are too expensive

[magic python]

May I ask what exactly a psych evaluation is? Is it just getting diagnosed with gender dysphoria and being shown you are in a state possible of consent?

[verbal monolith]

who’s to say you can’t wear women’s skirts

[civic pivot]

who said you can't cross the border (the women's section a H&M)

[odd narwhal]

I don't think you necessarily need to be diagnosed for dysphoria. That's the rub though, I have no idea what a psych evaluation that isn't a months long ordeal should be

[odd narwhal]

My figure

[civic pivot]

who tf even put labels on them? its just clothes. if I was a dude I'd wear a skirt and they'd call me grandfather clock

[odd narwhal]

I don't have the proportions

[magic python]

If it's any form of trying to convince them otherwise I literally can't agree unfortunately based on what I've heard and what I know about myself

[verbal monolith]

the first two sentences are my point. last one what the freak are you on about

[latent edge]

No I just find your experience to be interesting since usually from what I experienced in my culture, the admire goes in the reverse direction

[magic python]

Im glad I didn't need any intrusive bullshit on "Oh but what if you aren't trans" because that would have destroyed me

[odd narwhal]

I don't know why you'd assume this. At the very least the person should be evaluated to be able to consent. Beyond that, it's hard for me to say what exactly should be evaluated

[magic python]

As is I barely accept myself, I would be so unstable if I was forced through that to get the one legal treatment that works

[odd narwhal]

I definitely don't think the person evaluating should attempt to actively question the teen's gender identity

The way the system currently works is fucked, tbc, and it actively works against trans and GNC folk

[magic python]

Oh I just know many places already try to force people out of it before letting them get hormones or blockers, so I assumed that'd be what would get implemented

[sharp sage]

Ndeltoid where are you from

[odd narwhal]

You also have this for abortion in many places. It's revolting

[magic python]

Oh thank god, i hate how this happens still though

[magic python]

Oh yeah, people have no bodily autonomy when it comes to physical treatment

[odd narwhal]

I think puberty blockers are the best stopgap we have currently while a teenager is working through their gender identity

But it's definitely not perfect and has a whole host of problems

[magic python]

I see the point, I just can't agree for personal reasons

[odd narwhal]

I actually recently saw a video by a detrans mtf that was on puberty blockers and said that they would 100% do it again despite the physical side effects and that it saved their life

And despite not identifying as a woman anymore

[halcyon aurora]

"detrans mtf" really threw me but following

[magic python]

I'm actually quite sure a few of the bad stuff that happened in the past 8+ months was from my HRT

My doses are uh not normal from what I've heard from everyone else

I know some of my self hate got worse from HRT despite not feeling it anymore

[frosty zephyr]

Anywhere Europe
Not too far from Middle East

[sharp sage]

Wait, what if your physician secretly dilute your hrt so your dose goes back to normal but then lies about it to abuse the placebo effect(?) that you self imposed(?) where you feel more self fulfilled when on more estrogen? Idk

Which is probably bad since its tampering with your meds

[magic python]

???-

What are you on about?

[sharp sage]

Im sleep deprived and tripping forget it, shit is flowing out of my fingers

Although i cab elaborate

[magic python]

I do need to see how high I can jump immediately next appointment

[civic pivot]

serious discussion 🕰️

[sharp sage]

Literally or metaphorically

[magic python]

I feel like shit for 3 months due to a dose increase too high it's my fault

[magic python]

My meds, i need to see about tripling their dose for the one

[sharp sage]

... I swear

[magic python]

What's the worst it can do, the exact same things that happened the past 8 months? I'll live.

[sharp sage]

I am seriously reconsidering my previous message and i seem to agree with it.

[magic python]

What do you mean by dilute it so doses go back to normal..?

[sharp sage]

It seems like you are massively overdosing your meds/hormones just so you can feel something

[halcyon aurora]

This is a complicated case

[magic python]

I can assure you I don't feel fulfilment from my bad doses

[halcyon aurora]

It'd better not to be rash responding

[civic pivot]

I always hesitate on trans cases that come from an extreme sense of self hatred or low self-esteem. your mind wanders when it hates its vessel. i see it a lot

[sharp sage]

Im not sure whether this is some heavily wretched up placebo effect/mental self deprecation

[magic python]

I mean technically the one I am very high on is prescribed in that dose...

Supposedly for cancer but who cares.

[true zinc]

Car please do not try to do something that can genuinely fuck up your hormone balance or cause severe health issues

this is genuinely extremely dangerous

[magic python]

I know the dangers, and quite frankly I can't care anymore

[sharp sage]

Yea this probably is heavily wretched up mental self deprecation

[true zinc]

The dangers here are that you could die

[magic python]

My dose on estrogen is too low and it's made me feel horrible

[civic pivot]

^ this is exactly what i mean here. like sometimes this "affirmative care" is just someone's way of self harm

[magic python]

I know that.

[sharp sage]

She ran out of self preservation if i can judge correctly

Is this a form of extreme self indulgement idk

[magic python]

I mean is it self hatred if I don't feel it/know it anymore

[halcyon aurora]

No no no

[sharp sage]

"Here be dragons" would be an understatement

[civic pivot]

yes. numbness is what falls at the end of the slope

NUMB. NUMB. NOT DUMB. IM SORRY

[true zinc]

This may just be me self hating, but I do mean this as a genuine question, how does anyone judge whether something like this is actually beneficial, like yes patient self reporting is one thing, but how do doctors account for the sorts of issues that can arise when people are given HRT, judge whether that's even the right thing to do, etc etc...

[halcyon aurora]

I want to give my two centes but really not the time

[magic python]

My dose on cyproterone acetate is 75mg and I will planning to up to 100mg as I am allowed, my estrogen is 2mg, way too low.

[true zinc]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but many times people aren't super sure of what they want a lot of the time, esp if there's other ongoing stuff in their life right? /genq

[magic python]

But we can lie.

[civic pivot]

this is unfortunately something we don't know yet. I've seen a lot of research about it recently. we don't know the true depth of the human mind and how to distinguish two things that present the same

[halcyon aurora]

Honestly this is a problem for a lot of medicine, and there was the whole "illness doesn't exist" argument earlier.

[magic python]

Oh well, i guess I'm fucked then, nothing new. It's my body, it's already broken, not like doing stuff that will break me further will help me.

[halcyon aurora]

like doctors need to think of this

[magic python]

If I went off of my meds right now, I wouldn't forgive myself for months.

[civic pivot]

more estrogen means blood clots and higher risk for other problems. estrogen, like any other hormone, can't be good in high dosages.

[sharp sage]

Sunk cost fallacy + extreme/reverse (therapeutic) nihilism is what i see

[magic python]

I'd fall into more harmful mindsets

[magic python]

My estrogen dose is low compared to others.

I've heard 8 is far better and I've read about 5

[halcyon aurora]

@magic python Did you say you were "diagnosed" at 7 or did I misread that earlier? And like, what did that mean

[civic pivot]

but you're comparing two different bodies. there's a reason pharmacists don't give everyone the same dosage. I went on hormonal therapy and my dosages were extremely different than everyone else, but we eventually reached the same result

[magic python]

Why should anyone care about my body? You don't live in it, my harm doesn't affect you. I'm the only thing in this body, as such I get to do what I want to it.

[halcyon aurora]

this one

[magic python]

I was diagnosed at either 4, 5, or 6. Gender dysphoria.

[halcyon aurora]

I'm going out on a limb here

You are trans yeah? We can agree on that?

[magic python]

I know my body hasn't changed much, I don't even have soreness in my chest, which is a huge indicator ITS WORKING. Which shows mine isn't working (plus not much over the months I've been on it, especially compared to my cis peers irl)

[magic python]

Yes, unfortunately I am.

[magic python]

I was also on 1mg for a while, which is literally nothing if I actually want development

[soft aspen]

yes

[halcyon aurora]

But aren't there other things going on? How can you look at just "fix x" as the operative issue? I mean to me this is like a negative argument. "I need to mow the grass so it doesn't get too tall". Well sure but if the dishes aren't done and guests are coming over, like is the grass the main problem? I'm just seeing you say you feel "not real" and that seems like it could be a lot of things... maybe I'm stupid but idk?

[sharp sage]

... Thia probably boils down to the fact that, (id imagine) a really long time a go,that only organisms who has a drive to survive survives, and that drive is passed down. Again and again until it went down to me. Ofc that drive also extends to your community (why not) so id imagine people whe see you doing like this will activate that drive (which seem to be missing/shattered in you) and try to discourage you from doing shit like that

[magic python]

I'd say the person giving me the meds is more qualified to say when my cypro dose is too much despite what I've heard many people ate under 20

[soft aspen]

they can only supress me so much

[soft aspen]

i mean i dont want you to hurt yourself, but if youre not doing that i dont see a problem

[magic python]

I don't get anything else that could be an issue comparable to this that i also have, even if people are right about me having depression and near daily anxiety harming my breathing.

[magic python]

This is how I survive.

[halcyon aurora]

I would suggest you have to battle both issues

[ionic wraith]

This is prolly sensationalist and overblown interpretation from the actual study, but I was definitely the child who does the least for them and my older sister did the most while being taken for granted.

My sister definitely made sure to treat me like shit for this dynamic

[sharp sage]

Your definition of survive is different from mine i suppose.

[halcyon aurora]

that's my tricky comment, the wrench in the works. If you have depression then you have to be careful with what helps you feel "real" as well

[magic python]

I mean I'd be hurting myself either way. I'd arguably mentally hurt myself far more off of it.

[sharp sage]

I feel like some people just have the maslow tree of needs upside down

[magic python]

My definition of survive is not dying mate.

[halcyon aurora]

Also sorry for boomer quotes, I'm just trying to like not put too many words through

[soft aspen]

i havent read the whole conversation but i think there always way to physically go about something to reduce mental harm that dont hurt you physically

[sharp sage]

Well then your balance of satisfying yourseld via meds and keep living is different from mine ,methinks (why did i just use that)

[soft aspen]

im not sure how that lines up with what you said tho bc i told you i dont know

[magic python]

This is the only treatment that will work on someone like me, I am not doing therapy.

At least not for this.

[soft aspen]

idk what treatment youre refering to like i said

[magic python]

Pills, for transitioning.

[halcyon aurora]

The fact that you are suggesting therapy like that does imply you feel put upon to do that for some reason (it might be someone else's idea)

[magic python]

The meds are what seem to keep me alive...

[soft aspen]

oh those dont like harm you physically tho? so what is this conversation about 😭

[soft aspen]

otherwise intense body dysmorphia -> suicide

[magic python]

They can, plus I am on a rather high dose for cypro and planning to up it further

[sharp sage]

... Oh well then your notion of risk and utility is different from mine

[soft aspen]

why increase it?

[dreamy crag]

they absolutly can

[magic python]

I plan to go to almost 5 times the standard dose trans adults take

[soft aspen]

and i mean like normal doses

[dreamy crag]

they still do

[magic python]

I don't feel it working well.

[soft aspen]

ok why?

[glacial stratus]

-# hi you exist back to not talking bye

[soft aspen]

there shoudl be other medications you can try

[magic python]

Wonderful, me, someone who has reasons to do this, has reasons to do this. Shocker,

[sweet copper]

Pardon my ignorance, but I thought it was common to do CBT while transitioning?

[dreamy crag]

i do!! have fun lurking/whater ur doing!!

[soft aspen]

for example i have insomnia, depression, and anxiety (formally diagnosed) and ive tried many medications for insomnia, usually uping the dose because it doesnt seem to work isnt usually the solution and you would be much better off just trying a new one or seeking additional/more intense therapy

[magic python]

No other pills work, surgery isn't allowed for minors, therapy would hurt me, that's why

[slate turret]

I'm on the opposite side. I used to treat the other person like shit (their laziness made my life harder), but I wasn't able to to see progress in the other person until I became more of their friend and guided them whenever they needed help.

[soft aspen]

therapy is most definitely a good thing

[magic python]

Pardon my ignorance, what is CBT? I don't have any therapy for this if that's what it is, but I am definitely not the norm here

[dreamy crag]

it only helps if you want it, otherwise it is activly harmful in vast majority of situations

[sharp sage]

... I cant stop you, its not like i sit on the other side of the globe

[magic python]

I dont want it is the issue. It would hurt me because of this.

[sweet copper]

Cognitive behavioral therapy

[soft aspen]

ok so we wanna up our dose 5x but dont know about other treatments

[magic python]

Oh no I just take pills

[verbal monolith]

Excited to meet you!

[magic python]

Nonono I'm already at almost 4x the standard dose

[soft aspen]

that doesnt mean it would hurt you, youre just adverse to it, i was against therapy myself but now love it

[verbal monolith]

i didn’t realize this was serious discuss holy sorry

[magic python]

Atleast for cypro

[slate turret]

hi rice! what kind of math do you like

[magic python]

Okay the therapy wouldn't hurt me, I'd internally hurt myself, is that a better way to state it?

I'm not directly harming myself much, I don't see the issue.

[soft aspen]

ok well i think you should look into other forms of therapy and additionally other treatments if you plan to transition esp before talking about it here

[grizzled crypt]

serious necro more like it good lord lol

[verbal monolith]

this wasn’t at all what her implication was.

[halcyon aurora]

This number is changing, which I think is very relevant.

[magic python]

I've been on over twice the normal dose since i started 8+ months ago :3

[soft aspen]

thats not research or visits to other doctors for more opinions

[magic python]

Elaborate.

[verbal monolith]

what one should and shouldn’t do is super subjective.

[magic python]

I was prescribed this.

I was given the choice to go to 5x the normal dose i hear of being 20mg

I am taking it

[verbal monolith]

@soft aspen what do you mean by therapy? please elaborate. there are many existing types of therapy.

[soft aspen]

yes but it makes no sense to come here and argue something that you dont even know the whole truth of, deny therapy which is known to help with about every mental health condition, and talk abotu no other forms of treatment when that isnt true

[halcyon aurora]

you either don't know the numbers for some psychological reason (intense stress), or you have a pre existing limitation to producing consistent explanations

[magic python]

I agree, people should think about this before saying they don't care about their safety. I've known I needed this for years

[soft aspen]

therapy like with a therapist or hormone therapy

[soft aspen]

im talking about you not others

[halcyon aurora]

My experience of this behavior is that it is an identity issue, but here it seems like a suicidal psychology.

[magic python]

I'm at 75 going to ideally 100 soon. It's just easier to say "5x the normal dose" to emphasize that I am above it.

[verbal monolith]

therapy like with a therapist

why thanks. i do mean, as in psychotherapy?

[magic python]

I've known this for years, known who I was since I was at most 6, I've put enough thought into this.

[soft aspen]

i think all kinds of therapy here would be useful as pretains to mental states and trans treatments

[soft aspen]

then why do you only know about cyro and not cbt?

[sweet copper]

hormone therapy

I thought we where already talking about hormone therapy?

[magic python]

Because I didn't do CBT or get told to...

Okay maybe I got CBT? I don't know. I wasn't aware of it.

[soft aspen]

yes but theyre saying that the one they are on isnt working well so i suggested a switch or at least an opinion from another doctor

[magic python]

My memory is too fucked to look back and know if the pediatrician did CBT too

[halcyon aurora]

Yeah ok it's a memory thing

[magic python]

I'm planning to up my 2mg estrogen to atleast 6 if they let me

[soft aspen]

you can ask about it tho? i mean liek you should understand your options instead of telling us there is nothing else you can take

[verbal monolith]

gender dysphoria is a rather tricky topic. therapy, more specifically psychotherapy, is used as it can offer a fix of sorts to mental disorders, like depression and anxiety. though some like gender dysphoria are different and internal, which are directly associated with one’s identity, and can NOT be fixed through therapy that does not alter their physical identity. it can alleviate depression and anxiety and whatnot which can be symptoms caused by gender dysphoria, but the idea that the treatment given for these disorders should be used as well for gender dysphoria is well, rather silly.

[civic pivot]

discussion exceeded my knowledge so i refrain, sorry

[magic python]

If not, it'll be another 6 months of nothing

[soft aspen]

yes im refering to gender dysphoria

[hallow minnow]

Good choice.

[verbal monolith]

read my whole message please…

[soft aspen]

i did

[magic python]

I don't want it. I'd rather have scars over my body bleeding than deal with that, as is I don't have enough time to deal with myself.

[soft aspen]

you could be at a doctor rn instead of texting us?

[magic python]

(I know I'd prefer this because I supposedly felt a fake version before)

[verbal monolith]

yes, because doctors are notorious for being easy to get a hold of.

[magic python]

Not really, and i literally don't see the issue? It's my body? It's not like I'm making myself bleed.

[magic python]

My mind is smart enough to know blood feels warm and slick!

[dreamy crag]

and by my recolection, car is still a minor, so its not like they can just scedule an apointment afaik

[magic python]

Not without a guardian

[soft aspen]

well you said your medication isnt doing much for you, so you shoudl try to explore other options which is what im suggesting

[verbal monolith]

yeah, doctors suck when dealing with minors

[magic python]

They don't let me do the ideal stuff.

[dreamy crag]

especialy when ur parents are bigoted... ug

[halcyon aurora]

I am wondering at what point this becomes a self harm / moderation issue, but I feel bad.

[magic python]

Due to "safety" issues

[soft aspen]

who is they

[magic python]

The person prescribing me these.

[verbal monolith]

it feels in rather bad faith, you’re not exactly offering solutions as much as you are trying to argue your view

[soft aspen]

ok i said im talking about other forms of treatment not just hormone therapy

[halcyon aurora]

I would agree with @verbal monolith Ella