serious-discussion

[sharp sage]

does it even matter imo

your just randomly chopping out districts

[dreamy crag]

The chance that a true random map with equal dencity regeons to have the correct distribution of representation is practically 0

[sharp sage]

heck it could even look like a sponge for all i know

[dreamy crag]

This is an objective fact

[soft aspen]

You’ve done it?

[dreamy crag]

Yes actually

[soft aspen]

😭

[dreamy crag]

I did this for a pressentatjon on jerrymandering

And even for when account for population dencity (and a few other things) I was always able to make it win for a specific group over 70 percent of the time

As long as the groups were equal population

[sharp sage]

density*

[dreamy crag]

Shut up*

I can’t spell, I know that

[soft aspen]

Then why can’t you spell gerrymandering right?

[dreamy crag]

If you have 10000 points with one of 10 colors each randomly placed on an area defined by a random curve, there is a 70 percent chance you can make a division of between 7 and 10 districts such that one group of choice will have over 50% representation

[dreamy crag]

Because I can’t spell

[sharp sage]

... ok just pretend that doesnt exist, we all know what are they talking about anyways

[soft aspen]

😭

[dreamy crag]

I just did the coding

[flat karma]

what is the siiirius discussion on

[dreamy crag]

This is what we call not being taught English until you were 12

[soft aspen]

Yes but it’s odd that someone would do a WHOLE presentation on something and still not know how to spell the word properly don’t you think?

[sharp sage]

... whatever

[dreamy crag]

I didn’t do a whole presentation, I did part of a presentation in a group

[soft aspen]

So you did a whole presentation

[sharp sage]

?????

[soft aspen]

Fight semantics with someone else

[dreamy crag]

No? I did like 3 slides, none of which had text

Tables <3

[sharp sage]

graphic or technical?

[dreamy crag]

All technical, mainly my simulations, but also some real world data in a mega table

I can spell rhombicosidodecahedron though

My favorite polyhedra

[soft aspen]

I like the decagon

[sharp sage]

can i spell deoxyribonucleic acid? apparently yes

[soft aspen]

My fellow bio nerd

[dreamy crag]

And its duel the deltoidal hexecontahedron

[soft aspen]

The problem with this algorithm tho is that people with similar political backgrounds are usually close in distance or within the same community. So although you’re drawing lines around random dots, dots of the same color would often be found together and likely be apart of the same district due to their physical proximity

[dreamy crag]

I also account for those, and they give worse results. Im showing that even in best case senarios, gerrymandering is possible

[soft aspen]

It’s possible but reduced that’s the idea?

[dreamy crag]

I mean I guess

What matters is how you make it random

You could probably get more even with better randomness, but I am unfortunately stupid, and cannot do that

[soft aspen]

I was referring to completely random generated boarders that keep in blobs and don’t stretch too much and probably account for communities since that is a law

[dreamy crag]

That’s not possible

If you don’t want unequal parts

[sharp sage]

" completely random generated boarders" "account for communities since that is a law" isnt this an oxymoron

[soft aspen]

The size of blobs would be based on population density so maybe a community has many districts Becuase it is very dense while a rural area has a bigger blob but not one that is stretches to influence voter representation

[dreamy crag]

Yeah I’m gonna stop this argument

[soft aspen]

It’s a law?

[dreamy crag]

I gave you the best possible argument, it showed you were wrong, and you still disagree

[soft aspen]

It’s ok you don’t even understand 😭 because you don’t prove my argument wrong you just said you can’t code that lmao

[dreamy crag]

You are acting like a petchilent child and I have no want to talk to you

[soft aspen]

That’s fine bye!

[dreamy crag]

I fucking did that omg

In the words of cgp gray kinda: the most obvious answer is often terrible and inefficient

[sharp sage]

what i am saying is a completely random set of borders can not account for anything else besides the graph or whatever geographical representation (even then) otherwise it wouldnt be completely random

[soft aspen]

Yes but what you did doesn’t account for people of geographical closeness having the same political views buddy

Anyways I don’t want to deal with you acting like you’re proving something so bye! And it’s gerrymandering

[dreamy crag]

Yes I did

That’s one of the things I accounted for first

You make it so the probability of someone being in a certain group is a weighted sum of all people within a certain distance

[soft aspen]

But like the surrounding area would be random alongside if communities were close which communities were put together

[dreamy crag]

And you get splotches of groups! Quite fun to watch run

[soft aspen]

It should even out in the end since it’s random

[dreamy crag]

And guess what? That was more easy to jerrymander (I am doing this to annoy u :3)

“You didn’t acount for this??!!”
Yes I did, but it makes ur point worse so I didn’t bring it up

I’m trying to be in good faith shake my smh my head

[soft aspen]

Ok then essay time… yay

[ionic wraith]

[dreamy crag]

Monopoly!!!!!

[sharp sage]

i quit

what will the formed megacorp even be named lol

[dreamy crag]

Para goomba

[halcyon aurora]

how do you know it won't be Hollymount

[dreamy crag]

Because goomba wahoo Mario time

[halcyon aurora]

You have to go a hop, skip, and a jump to get to Paragoomba height tho, what if they don't feel like it

Wait this is srs discussion nvm

[soft aspen]

next thing you know hollywood sign will be hollymount

[sinful galleon]

Any books to start on olympiad math? High-school

[sharp sage]

Go to either #book-recommendations or #competition-math

[sinful galleon]

got it

[halcyon aurora]

ParaHollyWood Bros.

[soft aspen]

is this a good punchline? #multivariable-calculus message

[halcyon aurora]

There is no punchline (there the joke is ruined now)

no fr though I thought it was funny

[soft aspen]

but you reacted YAY

[soft aspen]

thanks i was proud of myself for once

🤩

[halcyon aurora]

I tell too many corny jokes like that tho so do be careful saying too many jokes like this, you don't want an earful.

[soft aspen]

never done before just thought it would be a good introduction to me being active again

[patent yacht]

What are y'all debating about

[soft aspen]

and specifically because i just needed a break from this server so me including math is very fitting

[soft aspen]

we were debating about gerrymandering and the use of algorithms to reduce biased districting and increase representation within regions

this was brought up due to the redistricting in virigina which was meant to address gerrymandering

[patent yacht]

Huh

[soft aspen]

@patent yacht

[patent yacht]

I'm too dumb for that discussion right now.

[halcyon aurora]

tbh I'm too sleepy for this thread too rn

[soft aspen]

the direct answer is no because gerrymandering specifically involves someone manipulating election results based on drawing district lines, but bro bro said theyve programmed it to run and said it was still a thing, which yes there will aways be bias, no one will ever get 100% representation through districting but its meant to reduce it

[thorny mural]

MATH IS DEAD

[soft aspen]

erm no, i love my integrals

[halcyon aurora]

LONG LIVE THE MATH

[soft aspen]

esp the multi var ones 🤩

[thorny mural]

We killed math by our sins

[thorny mural]

You're doing physics?

Feynman integral has infinite variables i bet you will love it

[soft aspen]

no calc 3

[soft aspen]

im athiest

[thorny mural]

Jokes on you I believe in the holiness of Geometry

[halcyon aurora]

sacred geometry lol

[thorny mural]

It's so amazing, especially curved geometries

[soft aspen]

personally i hate geometry so much i skipped it 🙂

[halcyon aurora]

or like idk geometry is just a thing

[nimble jacinth]

serious

[sharp sage]

<@&268886789983436800> what is ts in my serioussy 😭

[silent junco]

lets try to keep it on topic here. this is directed to no one in particular

[sharp sage]

<@&268886789983436800> another statistic maybe

[magic hinge]

?

[silent junco]

keep things on topic.

[magic hinge]

okay bro

okay multiflexer okay bro

[sharp sage]

Is keeping a graph of the upsilon role count by day normal or nah, i want to see the evolution of this

[silent junco]

its supremely unemployed behavior

[sharp sage]

Twin im in school, ofc im unemployed

[shadow mauve]

Excuses

Oh wait this is serious discussy

[latent edge]

[stoic tusk]

What the fuck

@brave flare

Am I being trolled brah

[mystic hill]

We are all being trolled.

[vocal vessel]

This is Discussy now

[mystic hill]

It's back to 3 seconds, but we still have to wait 15 minutes for the first message 😔

[vocal vessel]

Ping everyone

[neat lintel]

How is that cat talking

[vocal vessel]

What cat?

[neat lintel]

Quadius

[vocal vessel]

Tf is a quadius

[neat lintel]

Good question

[vocal vessel]

Oh now I see

[stark trench]

I don't know if I really like the existence of #serious-discussion.

I'd like to have a conversation here, actually, about this channel and whether it should (and perhaps why!) it exists.

[maiden panther]

You shouldn't worry about the existence of the server itself. There are so many things in the universe that exist with no ascribed cause to them.

[stark trench]

The case against it I endorse right now is basically that it's very difficult to properly segregate discussions about "serious" topics because they emerge pretty naturally out of "unserious" discussion, and this probably reduces the number of insightful discussions people have in general as a result.

Then, people have to check both #serious-discussion and #discussion any time they want to actually, engage with any serious conversation.

[stark trench]

I wasn't talking about the server, unless by "server" you meant what I mean by "channel?"

[maiden panther]

Yeah, channel. Sorry.

[stark trench]

No, it's alright. I was just clarifying.

I see. Yeah, that's funny---although I am somewhat seriously interested in the motivations behind the channel.

[maiden panther]

By labelling the channel 'serious', and the discussion channel without that adjective, we create a distinction.
It creates a sense of safety, where users can freely talk about nonserious things.

This distinction helps us to organize our thoughts. Much like modes of thinking.

[stark trench]

I think the major strong-suit of dividing the conversations up is that it allows people who don't want to participate in a "serious" conversation to not see any.

The problem with this is that it doesn't seem there's any enforcement restricting #discussion to purely unserious conversations.

[maiden panther]

That's because discussion isn't just meant for nonserious conversations.
The point is, seriousness of a topic is not only in the topic itself but in how we approach it.

[stark trench]

I think there's been a perception it's fine and safe to discuss unserious things in #discussion since forever; I don't think this was an issue in need of solving.

[grizzled crypt]

I like the existence of this channel. No deep reason other than that I'm interested in discussion of the listed topics but not the constant banter of #discussion. And I don't think there needs to be any kind of enforced segregation so I don't see a real problem there

[stark trench]

Hmm, so the idea is that it precludes people from entering serious conversations with an unserious attitude?

[maiden panther]

Pretty much. It acts like a mood shift. When you are in 'serious' discussion, your lens (or eye) changes

#discussion does not forbid seriousness. It allows everything.

[stark trench]

I'm not sure it really changes the mood here, much.

[maiden panther]

#serious-discussion is like filtering. You can think of it as an equivalence relation of sorts.

[stark trench]

That's just been my experience conversing in #discussion, and comparatively much less in #serious-discussion, to be fair.

[maiden panther]

That's the gap between philosophy and lived reality. And it's up to us how we decide it.

[stark trench]

I don't think we need a bunch of analogies, Mr. LLM.

[grizzled crypt]

I think #advanced-lounge may be a good existing example to look at. It definitely has a different vibe, even though there's no reason you can't discuss its topics in #discussion

[stark trench]

#advanced-lounge also has a wildly different focus, like it's heavily restricted whereas this isn't true for #discussion or #serious-discussion.

[maiden panther]

LLM?!? Damn..., it hurts.
Let me rephrase it in more LLM style.
#serious-discussion is like a restricted pane, like the one you see in the visual novel Narcissu, in which you see the world in a restricted pane of consciousness, much like how Woolf described it in her book The Waves/
A lens that molds absurd fluid things and forces them to turn into stones.

Or, you can think of it as an equivalence relation.

[stark trench]

I apologize. It was very rude of me.

I just think these analogies are really bizarre.

[maiden panther]

It's okay. I am pretty quick to jump to conclusions.
After all, my reading tastes are quite weird, and my prose even weirde.r

[stark trench]

I say this because I don't think the equivalence relation analogy is really apt.

Filters (in the physical sense) aren't really analogous to equivalence relations.

[maiden panther]

Why not?
Discussion is like the entire set of integers. And serious discussion is a subset of it.
Like, modular congruences on integers, that forces us to see things in a way.

I mean I get it. Such intuition destroys rigour.
(That's why the Bourbaki group hated it)

[stark trench]

Equivalence relations are relations on a set of things.

Modular congruences don't let you pick out an arbitrary set of integers and remove the rest of the integers, you genuinely just get different algebraic structure, but equivalence relations are more general.

They're just partitions of sets.

[grizzled crypt]

Based on experience so far, this channel just seems to be a good place to have longer, more focused discussions without the 3,000 active users posting gifs or saying hi to each other like in the general discussion channel (nothing against that, it just makes it hard to get traction on a single topic)

[stark trench]

Hmm.

[maiden panther]

That was just for intuition sake.
I am not formal.

But, the point is, the adjective 'serious' in #serious-discussion carries with it deep meaning that affect us in ways which I shall describe. It is like putting a restriction on the way we speak.

[stark trench]

I guess I'm convinced the channel has a substantially different feel and subject matter.

[grizzled crypt]

Again just my personal take others may disagree

[stark trench]

I still think it probably reduces the number of super insightful conversations people can have, but it's a difficult question whether that's worth adding a new space for people to interact in.

It probably is worth it.

[maiden panther]

That's why it is 'serious.'
Consider two doors, both of them having the same dimensions, the same color, the same texture.
But one of them having a label 'bedroom' and the another 'kitchen.'

Physically, they are the same. It is the label that 'distinguishes' it. So, the signifier is superior to what it signifies.

(I don't know where I am going with my analogies, or if I am even remotely clear.)

[stark trench]

I feel like this is some sort of tongue-in-cheek joke. A jape, even. Perchance, a jest.

[grizzled crypt]

To be blunt. You aren't 🤣

[maiden panther]

In a functional sense, #serious-discussion has a longer slow-mode, different audience, and subject matter that adds to its uniqueness.

[maiden panther]

Infinite Jest.
(David Foster Wallace Reference).

[stark trench]

It's actually a Shakespeare reference.

I wasn't referencing Wallace referencing Shakespeare but Shakespeare referencing Shakespeare.

[maiden panther]

I haven't read Shakespeare, besides Macbeth.
I have read a little bit of his sonnets.

[gilded panther]

This is a serious conversation, don't say "67"

[dry badge]

sixty seven

[civic swift]

Son😭

[willow juniper]

whos feeling serious?

[willow juniper]

perchance

[soft aspen]

It says it they would like to keep topics that can cause heated debates such as religion and politics here so people are less likely to troll

[willow juniper]

you mean roger bacon referencing bacon?

[dull socket]

trump is a stupid bald predator

[soft aspen]

Not bald yet 🙁

[dull socket]

the hair is clinging on to dear life

[soft aspen]

Tupe fs

[wanton stirrup]

Guys, in the hypothetical scenario that your now in an all out war, the enemy has detonated yogurt bombs, and you’ve inked their entire supply of everything, do u resort to chemical warfare like devils toothpaste or chlorine gas

[soft aspen]

I’m not at war I’m on medication

I like devils toothpaste tho

Sounds like a great idea for chemical burns and possible fires. But how did they start? I dont know

[wanton stirrup]

They started with spitballs

We returned with pen bows, so uhh, we may have escalated, but who cares..

[soft aspen]

Me

[ashen mauve]

If you are in a life and death scenario, then you shouldn't hesitate to use chlorine gas if it is needed for victory

[wanton stirrup]

Lol

[umbral skiff]

hi

[low badger]

hi

[sullen pike]

blobfish

[wanton stirrup]

Hi

[stone briar]

MATH 2BAC MOROCCO????

[wanton stirrup]

?

[dire robin]

The whole talk of labour camps did remind me that technically the US hasn’t even outlawed slavery

There is an exception to this rule where prisoners can still be forced to work

In a slave-like manner

[full hornet]

how so?

[ionic star]

sparkling enthrallment

[tropic pivot]

why so serious?

[soft aspen]

and they commited crimes?

[cinder sedge]

Yo chat

[cinder sedge]

Ill use pottash

[low badger]

hello

bye

[green stream]

hello

[green stream]

bye

[inland dawn]

Theres something that bugs me deeply. So like, cisgender people.... they sometimes get cosmetic surgery like breast implants, butt implants, hair transplants, laser surgery and stuff like that, and also sometimes takes hormones to be more in line with their assigned gender or because of deficiencies. Why isn't this called gender affirming care?

[cyan silo]

how is this an issue and how does it bug you because of what it is called?

what deficiencies?

[sharp mulch]

It is yeah

[cyan silo]

why will someone get a butt implant what?

[sharp mulch]

You see jokes online about men taking steroids being transitioning male to male

[cyan silo]

i thought people took steroids when they were sick?

[sharp mulch]

Different types of steroids

[inland dawn]

Well alot of transphobes are bothered by things that aren't called what they actually are. And it bothers me because people demonize transpeople and think its gross that they change their body because of what they precieve their gender as... but its completely normal for cis people

[cyan silo]

I mean steroids are prescription based drugs?

[inland dawn]

I get steroids but for skin issues

[sharp mulch]

Ultimately I think it comes down to most people not having a very developed view of gender both personally and conceptually

[cyan silo]

I mean see why will getting a butt transplant be to get in line with gender like what?

[inland dawn]

But alot of people take steroids to be more masculine

[cyan silo]

why would anyone do that?

[cyan silo]

non productive use of steroids imo

[inland dawn]

Ask people who get bbl. Its just something that people do

[cyan silo]

who even cares about masculinity or looking masculine or feminity or looking feminine

[inland dawn]

Everyone almost

[cyan silo]

like just do stuff study get a job work

[cyan silo]

useless perception in general

[inland dawn]

Its ingrained in our culture

[cyan silo]

identity politics basically

[gritty portal]

Some have some hormone issues and others are insecure ig idk

[inland dawn]

Identity politics is such a buzzword

[wet mortar]

take anabolics->win olympic gold->bring glory to syria

[cyan silo]

hormone issues is a medical issue insecurity is not

[inland dawn]

"Identity politics" is literally older than agriculture

[gritty portal]

Yeah

[cyan silo]

people should care about how they perform and define themselves by actions and ideolgoy rather than what they are at birth or what type they want to appear

[cyan silo]

i wanted to in olympiads but sadly im not syrian anymore

[inland dawn]

But its very common for doctors to operate on intersex infants even tho it poses no medical harm or complications

[cyan silo]

i wish i was in syria

[inland dawn]

So cosmetic surgery is entirely normalized world wide

[whole gorge]

Steroids are just a term used for any compound that has four fused rings that are arranged a specific way

[wet mortar]

well no

[cyan silo]

yes because it is in general a statistical abnormality is it not? I mean that person is more likely to face prejedice if he/she does not fall into the binary specturm so doctors do it

[inland dawn]

I do appreciate the complete sidetrack

[cyan silo]

I mean it is just a standardized procedure.

[inland dawn]

Are gingers concidered abnormal?

[cyan silo]

i never considered anyone abnormal, i said intersex people rarely appear statistically and many places do not have adequate arrangments for them.

so it is better if possible that doctor operates, its not purely cosmetic

[inland dawn]

Its a leading question

[cyan silo]

but what do you mean by ginger? irish people?

[inland dawn]

Would you say ginger people are abnormal in the same sense as intersex people

People with red hair

[cyan silo]

well no because ginger people have a rare hair color which does not matter to scoeity and biology as a whole, red hair does not create issues or act as an exception or has any underlying fdiffernce other than the color.
in case of intersex people espicailyl in sexual issues and reproductive or urinary issues medical care is more difficult to recieve.
ik this is the fault of system as a whole but the thing is the main bearer of duffering will be the individual and not anyone else

[inland dawn]

Except that's wrong

Gingers are statistically less abundant than intersex people, and also face alot of societal prejudice because of their physical appearance despite not posing any medical issues. So if intersex people should get cosmetic surgery at birth why not gingers?

[cyan silo]

you miss my point.

red hair does not cause any underlying differnce other than the red hair itself, it does not cause any other biological issues

[inland dawn]

And the cases of where intersex people have issues with their reproductive organ is statistically insignificant compared to cosmetic surgery on infants

[inland dawn]

Most intersex people don't experience any issues either yet get cosmetic surgery at birth

[cyan silo]

still issues are prevalant and statistical surveys do not capture it well.

[inland dawn]

Theres no medical prognosis on if it'll cause issues or not. The medical prognosis is "it looks erong"

[cyan silo]

see reality on ground, most intersex people never participate in these surveys and the statistical data is a collection of such individuals who are mostly in first world countries

[cyan silo]

I am not saying it explicitly causes medical issues, what I am saying is it is difficult to standardize and thus is hard to care for

[inland dawn]

Race doesn't impact the birthrate of intersex people and the study done on it was to get an estimare of how many intersex people are born on average in multiple countries and this number is LOWER than it should be due to how few people do chromosome tests

Cuz intersex isnt always visable or even cause any biological changes

[cyan silo]

if that is the case then what is even the issue?

[inland dawn]

The issue is you lead the discussion in a whole diffrent way and this is where it ended up

Basically gender affirming care is something everyone does world wide in every country even on babies

But we don't call it that because.... stigma

[cyan silo]

okay ig i agree

[soft aspen]

your body produces steroids tho, it depends on the type and amount to determine what is healthy, for example taking T as an old man doesnt have to be a bad thing

[inland dawn]

T as in testosterone?

[cyan silo]

p(x) = ?

[sharp mulch]

No I never said it was a bad thing did I

[inland dawn]

Testosterone is a hormone not a steroid

[cyan silo]

ik people who have steroids before exams

[inland dawn]

I'm eating steroids rn

[soft aspen]

its not good medical practice to give sexual surgeries to children in general but sometimes is can effect the life of the baby, for example gingers have nothing wrong with them while intersex is a mutation they arent the same thing and shouldnt be interchanged just because one is more abundant

[inland dawn]

These cookies have steroids

[cyan silo]

i mean that is exactly my point

[soft aspen]

i didnt read i was just saying that incase

[sharp sage]

What are steroids exactly

[cyan silo]

intersex is a mutation

red hair is just a phenotype

[inland dawn]

Lipid molecules

[soft aspen]

go off

[inland dawn]

Red hair is a mutation that has been passed down genetically

[sharp sage]

virtually every trait is one

[inland dawn]

Just like........... intersex

[sharp sage]

... Go back to studying biology i think.

[cyan silo]

XXY chromsome

[soft aspen]

lipids that contain carbon rings and an oh- group

[inland dawn]

XXX chromosome

[soft aspen]

thats a chromosome disorder which is different than intersex

[inland dawn]

.......... what

[cyan silo]

oh

ig, my biology is not very advanced, I think I should stop debating.

[inland dawn]

All people with chromosome disorders are intersex

[soft aspen]

intersex is a mutation, while chromosome distributons such as xxy just stem from unequal seperation of chromosomes during miosis

[cyan silo]

regarding this matter, I studied biology only upto 11th here.

[inland dawn]

Not all intersex have chromosome disorders

[soft aspen]

i major in bio

[soft aspen]

most do not more chromosomes doesnt equal more genitals

[cyan silo]

i believe that depends if you approach it from a social vs biological prespective

[wet mortar]

it most certainly is a steroid

[cyan silo]

ah which nation are you from?

[inland dawn]

Intersex is an umbrella term not a definite condition

[soft aspen]

usa

[cyan silo]

that is social definition

[cyan silo]

oh i see

[soft aspen]

usually refers to someone born with or without extra or the absence of genetalia

[cyan silo]

im from Russia

[wet mortar]

the big daddy of all anabolic steroids

[soft aspen]

not sure where chromosome disorder fit into that

[inland dawn]

And also accepted by almost every scientists that studies genetical biology but go off queen

[inland dawn]

No? Its an umbrella term for everyone born with abnormal sex characteristics

[soft aspen]

ok so extra chromosomes doesnt mean they will have abnormal sex characteristics tho

usually they may be infertile but they will stil have the normal amount of genetalia

if you need me to explain to you how extra chromosomes work we can do that rn

[outer minnow]

could proper government intervention prevent the 2019 hong kong protests

[inland dawn]

Sex as in... man woman etc not sex as in intercourse.....

Even tho gender isn't defined by chromosomes. Sex is.....

[soft aspen]

yes and one can be a women and be trisomy x due to the bar bodies, like i said its obvious you dont understand how these things work so i would explain it to you

[inland dawn]

Takes like one Google search to look this up

[whole gorge]

People don't talk about it as much but estrogen is a steroid as well

[soft aspen]

😭 i study it but im wrong

[soft aspen]

gender can be described in many ways

there is no definite way to measure gender

[inland dawn]

I obviously don't understand it? You're the one who's fighting the most broad definition of the word thats used by experts in the fields

[wet mortar]

but you know what isn't? HGH

[inland dawn]

Yeah ik

[soft aspen]

ok tell me what a bar body is without looking it up and what happens when someone with many x chromosomes is born

[cyan silo]

the broad one is the societial definition

[sharp sage]

why does 99% of these technical terms (GMO,chemicals,processed food,...) get fucking marketing scheme/fearmongered into what they mean now like hah?

[cyan silo]

societial definition and biological definition are distinct, first decide which one you are debating with respect to

[whole gorge]

Yeah, it's a polypeptide instead

[inland dawn]

How does this prove that you're correct?

[sharp sage]

I believe she is talking about the latter.

[soft aspen]

because if i understand the mechanisms how in the world would you know better than me?

[inland dawn]

Like..... just look it up.... you're wrong... and its okay to be wrong. Just dont keep being wrong

[whole gorge]

Many...? Are you referring to dosage compensation?

[soft aspen]

its ok for you to not understand something that you DONT STUDY

[cyan silo]

if you look up the defintion you get is the social definition

[soft aspen]

yes for some reason they think that more chromosomes = more gentalia when that isnt the case

[whole gorge]

Also, it's Barr body

[inland dawn]

Because I'm an expert in a separate field than you. I dont study biochem so obviously I don't understand how DNA works at the most advanced level.

[cyan silo]

you cannot use societal definition to contradict biological logic

[whole gorge]

Chromosomes don't even guarantee phenotypes. They're just boxes that hold genetic information and a whole lot of other junk

[cyan silo]

even I am not but try to understand that she is reffering to the biological defintiion of intersex while you the societial one

[soft aspen]

yup but i was trying to explain this to them and they were rufusing to listen, i study biology but im wrong...

[whole gorge]

I used to study biology, but then I grew up into a chemistry major :P

[soft aspen]

nice

[whole gorge]

Joking

[inland dawn]

I guess the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights is wrong about the definition and has no basis to stand on

[soft aspen]

its ok you cant argue with ppl who refuse to listen so block move on

[whole gorge]

I can confirm that a majority of my entire upper division genetics course was just pointing out how BAD definitions are in genetics

[inland dawn]

Please just look it up..... its so easy

[cyan silo]

mam with all due respect they do not define the biological definition

UN high commisioner for human rights is NOT A BIOLOGICAL OR A MEDICAL BODY

[inland dawn]

Do not fall victim to the dunning Krueger effect

[cyan silo]

it is a SOCIETIAL AND HUMAN RIGHTS BODY

[cyan silo]

she is using un human rights definition to argue biology

what even is this

[whole gorge]

What are you asking about?

[soft aspen]

😭

[inland dawn]

What about ICD? Or DSM OR DSD?

[soft aspen]

can they ever listen to the people who study the shit?

[inland dawn]

I am listening to the people AT THE TOP OF THE FIELD

[whole gorge]

I'm just trying to understand what's going on

[cyan silo]

ICD 11 YES CHECK

[sharp sage]

<@&268886789983436800> uhh shits happening rn

[soft aspen]

youre annoying

[cyan silo]

ICD 11 literally

[cyan silo]

add me as friend asap

[sharp sage]

I did what i was supposed to do duh.

[soft aspen]

lol

[cyan silo]

if they ban u

[soft aspen]

by saying ill give her my textbook so she can stop spewing nonsense?

[cyan silo]

sun tzu the art of war
When you are loosing call the moderators

[sharp sage]

Thats quite rude.

[soft aspen]

she isnt even using biological reasoning in a biology discussion

[inland dawn]

Youre the one who's rejecting the top scientists of your field because "i study bio"

[soft aspen]

who are you to be morally superior?

[cyan silo]

UN HUMAN RIGHTS IS NOT A BIOLGOICAL BODY

[whole gorge]

@inland dawn What were you claiming again?

[sharp sage]

A person.

[soft aspen]

not a good one

[cyan silo]

NOR IS RUN BY TOP SCIENTISTS

[whole gorge]

I'm just trying to understand

[round abyss]

(just because you study something doesn't mean you aren't susceptible to being incorrect? but idrc about this argument)

[soft aspen]

stop messaging me

[cyan silo]

IT IS NOT A SCIENTFIIC BODY

[inland dawn]

That intersex isn't just people who have extra gender bits

[sharp sage]

1 Who said i have to be a good person to point out that you are rude?
2 <@&268886789983436800>

[cyan silo]

that is the definition of intersex people mam

[cyan silo]

ICD 11

[inland dawn]

No?

[soft aspen]

i can site an actual educational source tho and they have un human rights google

[cyan silo]

according to the UN

ICD 11. ICD 10 EVEN

[sharp sage]

1 thats a women
2 read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

[round abyss]

*cite and please do cite! it's good for discourse

[wet mortar]

mam-> ma'am

[soft aspen]

good discourse? theyre not even using actual biological evidence just a social defintion? dotn be hypocritical

[inland dawn]

icd 11 literally confirms what I said????

They even have a whole section called "umbrella term"

[sharp sage]

<@&268886789983436800> ad hominem and generally being annoying

[inland dawn]

What are you smoking

[sharp sage]

Another one in my chart, maybe.

[cyan silo]

bro what

we did not use one single degratory term not did we behave rudely

[wild lantern]

What even is this argument? You guys don't agree on what intersex means?

[inland dawn]

I'm not using either. I'm using the terminology used by recognized scientists and the WHO all use the same way

[soft aspen]

cant argue nonsense

[sharp sage]

The tone duh, now can we please calm down

[cyan silo]

we are trying to argue societal vs biological definition

[inland dawn]

Youre the one disagreeing with the WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION

[wild lantern]

What definition isn't societal? Literally every definition is a social thing.

[cyan silo]

no one is b eing harmed and this debate in general feels productive to us

[cyan silo]

why are you getting in midst of the debate miss?

[twin pasture]

"feels productive"

[cyan silo]

do you want to participate? if yes then do so

[wild lantern]

How about you don't call me miss

[wild lantern]

I'm trying to sort out the pings

[cyan silo]

you said any pronouns? miss is what we callt eachers here

[radiant sparrow]

Because we've gotten multiple pings, as you can see, from you guys

[inland dawn]

Intersex is an umbrella term for everyone born with abnormal sex characteristics including chromosomes

[wild lantern]

Okay muted. I asked you to stop.

[wild lantern]

If somebody asks you not to call them something you should just stop calling them that.

[radiant sparrow]

And did you miss the word "for" in her message, or...?

[inland dawn]

And this "expert" that studies bio says I'm wrong and that it only applies to people born with extra bits

Even tho every recognized body of science at the top of the field says otherwise

[soft aspen]

i blocked

[inland dawn]

But I'm wrong because... she studies bio

[soft aspen]

i dont deal with people who cant actually debate a topic and site google

[sharp sage]

"Argument to authority"

[inland dawn]

You're right and everyone else is wrong

[wild lantern]

Move on

This is a stupid argument and it does not need to be this heated.

[soft aspen]

fr

[inland dawn]

I'm not the one throwing insults

[wild lantern]

I don't care

Move on

[hollow lotus]

Im eating right now what's best to watch on yt?

[wild lantern]

Hmmm

[hollow lotus]

Faster

[wild lantern]

I want to rec something which isn't slop but the vast majority of things I watch on yt while eating are slop

Tasting history is pretty good

[whole gorge]

Anything with Gordon Ramsay, I don't know why but it makes me eat more

[soft aspen]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_WrOOvQxfaNOMv__HdxAxJYCL0FmEdh3/view?usp=sharing

sex determination
#. of chromo doesnt equal # of genetalia

[wild lantern]

Move on

[soft aspen]

others wanted to see

[wild lantern]

Okay, but lets move on to some other topic

[wet mortar]

https://tenor.com/view/deepfriedwoomy-deep-fried-woomy-smash-bros-gif-21464446

[soft aspen]

you can if you please no one is holding you back

[wild lantern]

I was in fact engaging in a conversation in other topics to do this

[soft aspen]

yes and you dont have to participate in mine 🙂

[wet mortar]

we will now discuss why wobbling HAD to be banned

[wild lantern]

I do when I get pinged about it

[soft aspen]

wobbling?

[whole gorge]

I don't play Smash anymore

[bleak sable]

what is wobbling

[wild lantern]

I do not know what wobbling is in this context

[soft aspen]

twerk time

[wet mortar]

this is wobbling

[bleak sable]

fighting?

[soft aspen]

when you smash eachother?

[whole gorge]

Some kind of thing you could do with Ice Climbers in Melee iirc

[slate turret]

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Wobbling

[wild lantern]

Seems like it would make competitions terrible to watch

[bleak sable]

mo im not clicking on that

[wet mortar]

yes it did

[soft aspen]

but twerking is fun

[wet mortar]

even more so it made them terrible to play in

[slate turret]

Yeah don't; it's actually a super virus that fills your brain with Super Smash Bros gameplay

[wild lantern]

Is it sorta OP?

[wet mortar]

from a certain point of view it isn't

[slate turret]

It's an infinite combo so yeah

[bleak sable]

so brain rot

[wet mortar]

ice climbers were not the best character in the game even with it

[bleak sable]

is it ok to swear?

[wild lantern]

In general it's fine

[soft aspen]

boring

[wild lantern]

Slinging slurs around and being a general dickhead is not okay tho

[bleak sable]

so can i say i dont wanna f my mind up

[wild lantern]

I do not care if you say fuck

[bleak sable]

bet

[soft aspen]

"dickhead" is defined by their mood swings so watch out

[bleak sable]

yeah i dont wanna fuck my brain up with brain rot

[slate turret]

Here's actual brain rot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_brainrot

[bleak sable]

nope not clicking on that either

[slate turret]

This one steals your data: https://www.google.com/

[bleak sable]

@soft aspen dickhead means to be a annoying jerk who dis respects everyone

[bleak sable]

kinda true

[hollow lotus]

Finish eating, didn't finish the video... but its interesting..

[bleak sable]

well Doot is gone

[soft aspen]

ok, they still use their feelings to decide things

[bleak sable]

also what is in tour bio???

your/mommy

[wild lantern]

I think most people have some amount of subjectivity in how they decide things

I'm not sure what your beef is with me. Seems kinda stupid to just get in some silly argument about this.

[soft aspen]

no thats my name but my bio is something else

[bleak sable]

yk people under the age of 13 are here right?

i would recommend changing it

[soft aspen]

i cant be a motherly figure?

[bleak sable]

you win "MOM!"

[wet mortar]

probably sufficient to say under 18

under 13 shouldn't be here in general

[soft aspen]

yea if he means it that way

[soft aspen]

sounds like you want to argue, im ok tho

[bleak sable]

yk they dont care about age restriction some 13 year old will say hes 18

[bleak sable]

becareful when you help me cause if you, do ill call you "MOM!"

[soft aspen]

i mean n if they didnt care it wouldnt be apart of tos but they dont have much of a way to enforce it

[whole gorge]

Isn't it against TOS to be using Discord under the age of 13?

[wet mortar]

yes

[soft aspen]

thats what i just said lol

[wild lantern]

You keep breaking the same issue back up despite me telling you to move on. You should stop instead

[bleak sable]

@soft aspen Mom can you buy me a new car?

[soft aspen]

im not move on and stop pinging me

[whole gorge]

They have to care because COPPA exists

[bleak sable]

whats the backstory?

[wild lantern]

Don't make snide comments about me then

[bleak sable]

what does that stand for

[soft aspen]

whats coppa

[wild lantern]

I'm only here because we get pings over this kinda stuff

[whole gorge]

Children's online privacy protection act

[bleak sable]

@soft aspen you still didnt answer me "MOM"

Can you buy me a new car please

[wet mortar]

https://tenor.com/view/ea-nasir-copper-bad-copper-whats-on-youre-mind-your-mind-gif-5487717699279424022

[soft aspen]

you not liking something doesnt make it snide

[bleak sable]

also Doot is a chill dude

[whole gorge]

It basically tells online platforms like Discord that they are heavily restricted in collecting data from anybody under 13

[soft aspen]

yes my son

[bleak sable]

"MOM" from your pfp were the same age...

[soft aspen]

age?

[bleak sable]

umm over 15

[soft aspen]

why doesnt it count for above 13 tho?

[soft aspen]

you think im a minor?

[wild lantern]

Me not taking your side doesn't make my choices entirely determined by mood swings either.

[whole gorge]

That's a good question

[bleak sable]

16-20

[slate turret]

Definitely

[wild lantern]

I wonder who is still talking in this channel after the issue that caused me to join the channel though...

[soft aspen]

i didnt say that was the "mood swings", you assuming something doesnt make that the reason

[wild lantern]

Hmm I wonder who I was sympathetic to?

[whole gorge]

The regulation just... Stops if you're above 13

[wild lantern]

Must be a mystery...

[bleak sable]

@wild lantern whats the back story?

[soft aspen]

no

[wild lantern]

Okay, what actually is your issue with me?

[soft aspen]

weird personally at 14 i dont want them having my data

[wild lantern]

Are you mad I told you to move on?

[soft aspen]

no why would i be mad

[bleak sable]

youre 14???

[whole gorge]

I think at 23 I don't want them having my data either lol

[wet mortar]

I just realised you aren't that Syrian_Patriot guy

[soft aspen]

no

[wild lantern]

Because you keep making comments at me

[turbid sedge]

Where did fiscussy 2 go

[soft aspen]

you keep responding

[whole gorge]

But since we agreed to their conditions when we decided to use their service, and even though we can opt out for some data for analytics, Discord can collect data from us

[bleak sable]

@wild lantern @soft aspen drop this topicand hug each other we are all humans we all make mistakes

those who forgive will be forgiven by others

[wild lantern]

Okay cool. I can just mute you. Feel free to complain via @polar panther

[turbid sedge]

A fiscussy 2 with cooldown ? I'm out

[wet mortar]

both discussies are now slowmode
the west has fallen

[bleak sable]

@wild lantern please do not mute her
@soft aspen please just hug it out
forget it we all make mistakes we are all humans
we are all one species
forgive, you will be forgiven
be nice, people will be nicer

[whole gorge]

Do these channels normally have slowmode?

[bleak sable]

i am not im just trying to make peace, also Doot is a chill dude

/girl idk

[wet mortar]

https://tenor.com/view/chill-guy-chill-guy-just-a-chill-guy-relax-gif-1579445140409713118

[verbal quest]

I watched several videos and the same chat is still happening
she's lucky she didn't get muted sooner

[bleak sable]

then she shall apolgies and Doot shall forgive her

[bleak sable]

whats the backstory

[verbal quest]

you've been here the whole time
why would I be telling you

[slate turret]

Ella lacks a bit of maturity. Which is unfortunate bc she was entertaining to watch/converse with

This was bound to happen eventually

[wet mortar]

he hasn't that was another guy

[bleak sable]

i wasnt

[bleak sable]

pleasedont speak about people when they arent here

[verbal quest]

ok, just the last 23 minutes
and I wasn't here
so same position

[slate turret]

I don't now how muting works, but I think she can still read things I say

[wet mortar]

yeah

[bleak sable]

shes dming me rn

[wet mortar]

https://tenor.com/view/great-jelly-thing-gif-10269271386098968945

[bleak sable]

we talkin

[wet mortar]

it's kinda like this

[slate turret]

Hi btw if you're reading this; I don't mean any offense in my comments

[bleak sable]

muting makes you unable to see any channels but the rules one i believe

@wild lantern can you please un mute her, human makes mistakes. forgive her even if shes being un mature

[slate turret]

You can address it with @polar panther

[verbal quest]

Moey, you're gonna end up muted for harassing a mod about a mod decision

[bleak sable]

im not gonna intervine with something that doesnt relate to me im just advicing nothing else

[verbal quest]

you can't intervene
that's like saying you won't fly to Mars because you don't want to go to Mars

[slate turret]

Well you can, but not by direct pings like that. Mod mail is for dealing with appeals like this

[bleak sable]

i found out why:
i was muted because i said hi to someone in a help chat and was supposed to understand an implicit comment that ive literally never heard before so they muted me i went to mod mail and doot kept the mail to himself so no one else would see, ive brought it up before and they muted me for a month
all i said this time is they like to determine what us actually rude or not just depending if it hurts their egos and everyone in the discord sucks up to them so its never actually noticed

[verbal quest]

wut

[slate turret]

I know that you're passing on a message from her, but you should probably be more clear that it's what you're doing. There's a forwarding feature in Discord, and > this thing

[bleak sable]

ok

[verbal quest]

or maybe just don't share messages from someone about their mod actions

[bleak sable]

shes genuinly a very sweet person

[wild lantern]

The modmail inbox is shared among the senior moderators. It's not just me who sees it.

[last knoll]

Sure. Have you read Harold Bloom?

He was a literary critic who wrote about all sorts of classics.

[slate turret]

Any particular recommendation of their work?

[last knoll]

I like his anthologies of the greatest poems of all time although the western canon is most mainstream and controversial work

[dull socket]

im serious

[bleak sable]

no ella is genuinely a sweet person

doot is a chill dude

[covert geyser]

Anyone else think AI is digital asbestos?

Or something. Idk how to open the topic

[dreamy crag]

-# she’s also really anoying sometimes and doesn’t listen but mhm sure

[slate turret]

It would probably be appropriate for me to read the literature he is criticizing before I read his criticisms. Great recommendation tho

[dreamy crag]

Fair lol, and I do agree

[last knoll]

I agree.

[dreamy crag]

Assuming you mean generative ai. There are “artificial intelligences” that are quite useful/cool

[slate turret]

My ever so increasing reading list

[last knoll]

I read his criticisms of baudelaire and proust (some of it). I have read baudelaire and currently am reading proust and his criticisms really added to it.

[covert geyser]

Have you heard about Human challenge Oracle?

https://arxiv.org/abs/2601.03923v1

Might be a contributing factor in popping the AI bubble

[dire robin]

I don’t think that means enslaving them is ok

[dreamy crag]

I haven’t but I’ll look into it

[dire robin]

It’s legally recognised as slavery
I found out because of my confusion when seeing “Ban Slavery” in California ballot in 2024

Interestingly enough it didn’t pass so

[dreamy crag]

Same lol, my reading list has over doubled since I started reading house of leaves cause my review is getting just incredibly long, and I haven’t had time to read anything else (lies, I still read lots of fanfic)

[covert geyser]

Oh i didnt see this. And yea i agree with that aswell

[dreamy crag]

Especially because people do get falsely imprisoned, especially people of color

[inland dawn]

Today we have internships

[bleak sable]

everyone is, even you

even me

[slate turret]

Who reads must choose, since there is literally not enough time to read
everything, even if one does nothing but read. Mallarmé’s grand line—“the
flesh is sad, alas, and I have read all the books”—has become a hyperbole.
-- Harold Bloom, The Western Canon, ch1

[dreamy crag]

I know but she is very immature and wasn’t listening, I think mods are perfectly in their right to mute her

[covert geyser]

Its convenient and fast, and good on the surface for sure, but the AI slop is basically what the figurative asbestos fibres are

[bleak sable]

all she did was not know what does "make the room bigger" mean

[slate turret]

You could probably make a good descriptive essay on this

[dreamy crag]

Not with me!

[bleak sable]

what did she do

[dreamy crag]

Not gonna get into it much because I really just do not care, but argued with me, repeatedly changer her point because I kept proving her wrong, being really annoying about it, and disrespecting me

[dire robin]

And legal slavery does encourage that

[bleak sable]

everyone makes mistakes

[dire robin]

People that benefit from it also incidentally influence the government greatly

[dreamy crag]

She made a mistake, and is being punished for that mistake? I do not see the problem

[mint canopy]

Learning about this strange modern slavery-by-incarceration was so strange for me. It really is an extremely perverse incentive for the justice system

[bleak sable]

well yeah i agree ig

[dreamy crag]

I wonder why black communities were overpoliced (and still are now) after the abolishment of “traditional” (I don’t know a better work) slavery

[mint canopy]

I think the term is "chattel slavery" but I might be wrong

[dreamy crag]

Oh yeah, that sounds right

[mint canopy]

I have a bad feeling that it's a buzzword that I've heard and am misusing, but it'll do for now

[slate turret]

This is probably what you're looking for: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labour

[mint canopy]

Ah no that's the opposite of what I wanted to communicate

But this is relevant to the conversation

[slate turret]

Wow

[dire robin]

Hm that is something I should look into

[dire robin]

I know that black panthers combatted it with copwatching

[slate turret]

In Oregon, for example, the DMV pays incarcerated workers $4 to $6 a day, while a worker outside of prison doing the same DMV job makes an average of $80 a day.

More than 75% of workers told ACLU researchers if they can’t work or decline to do so, they are subject to punishment ranging from solitary confinement to the loss of family visits to denials of sentence reductions.

[dire robin]

Oh wow wtf

[covert geyser]

Im tempted to use AI to make it, but its a bit hard not to get confused when im constantly correcting the AI and its contaminating my tunnel vision

Need to find a workflow that avoids that while still getting the usefulness from AI

If thats even possible 😵‍💫

[harsh geyser]

hello what's the discussion on!?

[slate turret]

It's baked into the 13th amendment, some case studies are provided here (part 4)

[slate turret]

It's completely doable if you use AI to search resources + suggest corrections based on provided sources.

Instead of having it do any of the meat of the writing

[zealous garden]

Not possible

[zealous garden]

Not possible. The AI will hallucinate and lie to you and say that it searched it up or used the tools you gave it, without actually searching or using the tools

Not every time, but enough that this doesn't solve the issue at all

[slender oar]

Is there a site/app where i can test my level of education in math to see where or how good i am in math?

[dreamy crag]

It’s actualy infuriating when you tell someone something that’s objectively true, they disagree with you still, you give up because there is clearly no way of changing their mind, and they assume they “won” the argument

This has happened to me so many times even just this errk and it’s getting on my nerves

[sharp sage]

something something argumentum ad nauseam, plus their ego is so high its best to just ignore them

[mint canopy]

I know the feeling and is really true

Learning the skill of letting people be wrong is so freeing

[sharp sage]

i guess that is why they call it a skill...

is this actually a good adblocker

[dreamy crag]

Mhm! And I’ve just started to block people who do this, it’s just not worth talking to them

[sharp sage]

holy shit, i just realized how many ads i got bombarded with on youtube per day, this was eye opening

like why tf are ads so prevalent everywhere i go

[mint canopy]

It really is a shame that the free-with-ads model has become the standard on the internet, yeah :(

[covert geyser]

I had the same suspicion

Maybe i just write the essay in the way humans have successfully done for thousands of years lmao

[wild lantern]

Khan academy maybe?

[verbal quest]

ALEKS does that
or just google for placement exams

[old lotus]

Why the serious discussion channel .What's special here 🫠😭

[sharp sage]

#changelog

[ashen mauve]

Your arguments should have the objective of influencing the undecided third parties who may hear or read the arguments

[dreamy crag]

It’s usually in dms

No? It’s objectively slavery

[dreamy crag]

But yes, I should focus on this more

[sharp sage]

Be more charismatic :3

[ashen mauve]

If there are no undecided third parties to influence, arguing with a stubborn opponent is a waste of time then

[dreamy crag]

I’d argue no, but I can see how it can be

[sharp sage]

yes as why tf do you have to risk your life just because you were born there

[dreamy crag]

Yep!

[sharp sage]

Sotrue

[verbal quest]

that's your first mistake

[ionic wraith]

[sharp sage]

I would assume that being born in a country and being its citizen grants you some benefits, and being drafted is a way to "pay back" the rights and benefits the country had given to you

[silent junco]

slavery is really an overloaded term. few things in this world are as barbaric and inhumane as chattel slavery in the sense of the atlantic slave trade. but the word slavery has come to mean something broader, and i think debating the semantics of what does/doesnt count as slavery is largely unproductive.

[verbal quest]

wait, if they're not paying, why did the chicken prices go up
what a scam

[dire robin]

I’m not against providing jobs for the imprisoned, but they should be paid fairly and not forced to do it

[sharp sage]

Tbh i would consider slavery to mean "forced work by some figure whose social status is higher than you"

[verbal quest]

is there a reason there have been multiple days of discussion defining slavery
it's a bit

[old oak]

1. And not still not slow enough, 2. I'm not sure what this has to do with geopolitics

[sharp sage]

Why tf are we switching over to penal labour now?

[silent junco]

yeah and this definition admits "wage slavery" as a form of slavery. but this isnt particularly useful when we want to talk about things like penal labor.

no. genocide is actually very well defined, concept creep of genocide isnt just something we should accept.

[sharp sage]

You were talking about draft right when i typed that, so...

Oh well whatever

[ionic wraith]

Crazy when I learned that Ottoman slaves could be promoted as high as the top military commander for the Ottoman Empire

Doesn’t morally excuse the Ottoman slave system

[dire robin]

It’s actually pretty on point

[ionic wraith]

If the Ottomans and the Russians didn’t beef then Palestine would be more free than it currently is

[dire robin]

Rich people utilise wealth i inequality to coerce people into work

Hence why it is wage-slavery

[ionic wraith]

But the beef between the Ottomans and the Russians was kinda inevitable as they were right up against each other

[silent junco]

genocide has an actual definition in academic literature, and it needs to have a fixed definition as long as genocide actually exists. if someone claims theres a genocide of a particular group then we should treat it as if they are appealing to the definition of genocide, and whether or not the word fits the bill is a separate matter.

[dire robin]

But it is not uniformly terrible. In fact, it is the only viable option in the context of worker alienation

[ionic wraith]

Zionism was an anticolonial movement?

Lmao how

Opposing one type of imperialism for another is not anticolonial

Zionism is inherently a colonial ideology

[sharp sage]

breaking news discord user discovers double standards exist /j

[silent junco]

"their own" ?

ah i see what you mean. youre wrong, but i get your point

[heavy pagoda]

in a situation where colonisation is inevitable the anti-imperialist position would surely to be opt for assimilation into the empire that would interfere the least negatively in life in that country

[vast wraith]

https://tenor.com/view/umm-uhhh-what-gif-19383908

[ashen mauve]

It's not correct to call a faction, who happens to oppose another faction that is imperialist, anti-imperialist.

Both factions in this case agree with imperialism, they disagree with who gets to do the imperialism. So it's not the concept of imperialism itself that they are against, you could say they are anti-British imperialism rather than anti-imperialism as a whole.

[heavy pagoda]

agree with the point that it seems quite projective to call israel imperialist/colonialist

the long term goal was that this would be an indepdent country localised to that region, not an extension of a pre-existing external power

[ashen mauve]

As an analogy, take 'Ethnicity A' who are racists, as they believe that they are the superior race.

'Ethnicity B' are also racists, they also believe that they are the superior race.

If 'Ethnicity A' decides to attack 'Ethnicity B,' just because 'Ethnicity B' are racists, doesn't mean 'Ethnicity A' are anti-racists.

In this case, 'Ethnicity A' is only against one specific type of racisim that is held by 'Ethnicity B.'

[heavy pagoda]

this isnt to say that the creation of such a country is good or bad, just that it seems to be unnecessarily muddying the waters to equate it to previous instances of imperialism from history

[dreamy crag]

Theodor Herzl literally called it “something colonial”

In reference to making the county of Israel

[blazing pawn]

To be fair the term colonialization being pejorative is pretty recent and with that its definition has narrowed pretty considerably

[dreamy crag]

It’s not like people are making things up

[ashen mauve]

I'm not intellgient enough to understand what that means

[glass peak]

[heavy pagoda]

this person died 40 years before the founding of israel

[dreamy crag]

He was also the creator of Zionism

[blazing pawn]

So i wouldnt say herzl calling israel colonial pre ww2 is really indicative of whether analyzing israel under the framework of settler colonialism makes sense

[heavy pagoda]

he had no hand in any aspect of its implementation though

[ashen mauve]

Ok, both Ethnicity A and Ethnicity B want to legally enact the other side as second-class citizens, so the winner of this war will have their racism not just in their hearts, but also in the law.

[heavy pagoda]

so the dynamics of his envisioned arrangement are kind of not relevant here

[ashen mauve]

I never said they're the same thing, I was making an example, to prove that calling Zionists anti-imperialists or anti-colonialists is not an accurate description.

They didn't have an Empire

Why does that matter?

So are you saying that, for a faction to be colonialist they have to be acting in behalf of another state?

[heavy pagoda]

anyway the point here is that colonialism/imperialism, by definition, requires the existence of an external power exercising rule over that region

[dreamy crag]

Ok, just gonna put this out here: just because it was not colonial for the soon to be Israelites, does not mean that it did not act as a colonial project for western powers, specifically the United States

[ashen mauve]

The British already controlled Palestine, wouldn't make much sense to start a colonial project on their own colony if that were the case

[heavy pagoda]

israel did not really act a colonial project for the united states in any direct or meaningful sense

the united states has never had any particular say or interest in israeli internal affairs

[blazing pawn]

Yeah I agree that "colonial for the united states" is a bit too vague to really be meaningful. Like, is south korea also a colonial project for the united states?

[ashen mauve]

The US wasn't involved at the start

[dreamy crag]

Inane take

[heavy pagoda]

south korea is arguably a vastly better candidate for a united states colonial project

[blazing pawn]

I dont think a global power supporting a regional power because they want to leverage that regional powers resources for more control is colonialism

[heavy pagoda]

but even that is a pretty huge stretch

[blazing pawn]

Even supporting the creation of that state (the US supported the creation of south korea too but I dont think that south korea is a US colonial project)

[ashen mauve]

We're talking about colonization, which people refer to when Israelis first started migrating to Palestine

[mint canopy]

I don't really think this is true. I think the US is quite interested in various ways -- perhaps best demonstrated by it's extraordinary funding of israeli defense systems such as the iron curtain -- possibly because it has very few other allies in that area of the world

[sharp sage]

On that note is south vietnam a colonial project too
Edit: i may or may not have been shoved propaganda by our govt.

[ashen mauve]

US wasn't involved with Jews migrating to Palestine, that was the European powers mostly, the most significant being the British

[heavy pagoda]

the keyword here is internal - the US is interested in the existence of Israel as an ally in securing their interests against those of e.g. Iran

[blazing pawn]

This was the first example I thought of lol

[heavy pagoda]

for something to genuinely be a US colony, it should arguably be the case that it is a vehicle for US control in that specific region

and like israel's government has like at least as much autonomy in its internal affairs as like any generic US ally

[blazing pawn]

I think for something to be a US colony in the sense the word is used today there should be like. an attempt to displace the local population with americans to create a territorial extension of america

[heavy pagoda]

yeah this too

[mint canopy]

It really is fascinating actually. I find the politics of that very confusing -- I wonder how Saudis reconcile that with other feelings they might have about Israel.

[dire robin]

US doesn’t do colonialism per se
Their imperialism manifests in the form of “we build military bases, and if you elect someone we don’t like we will topple them and kill them, so that you may thrive under a neoliberal dictator!”

[heavy pagoda]

has the US ever done this to any serious extent in Israel?

[dire robin]

Israel is complicit in this, they don’t have to worry about them

But there are tons of US military bases in Israel

[heavy pagoda]

my point is that the government of israel gets to decide its domestic policy fairly indepdently of the united states

and of any western power for that matter

[dire robin]

It is the case that Israel doesn’t challenge said nations with their foreign policy

[heavy pagoda]

so it seems hard to call it an extension of some external nation or body of people

[blazing pawn]

Yeah I think aside from insane christian zionists american politicians dont like, actually care what israel does internally at all

[mint canopy]

Perhaps it's more correct, as Jolii points out, to say that while Israel is not a US colony, it provides a base of support for US "colonial" (at least in the sense that people use it today) projects

[dire robin]

But yeah Israel is it’s own nation, US is just boot licking

[blazing pawn]

I think this is one of those things where "colonialism" has become a pejorative to refer to any acts where the west (and sometimes other powers like china) asserts power or control of any form over any non western area

[dire robin]

Neoimperialism is the prevalent force nowadays

[blazing pawn]

But this is not like actually a productive way of analyzing things

[heavy pagoda]

again the point is that in my view 'is israel comparable to (historically bad thing X)' is a dumb substitute argument for 'is action Y carried out by israel good or bad'

[blazing pawn]

like american support for israel can be bad without it somehow constituting american colonialism

[mint canopy]

I fear you are correct, unfortunately it does seem to have lost some concrete meaning

[heavy pagoda]

like the answer to the former is typically no or a very stretched yes due to the dynamisc being fundamentally different in some way

when it seems much more productive and honest to discuss the second argument directly

[mint canopy]

I agree -- this whole thing seems so tertiary. Perhaps one day it will be actually helpful to talk about imperial attitudes but there really are more pressing matters to be addressed haha

In America, even, there are more pressing matters

[silent junco]

i cant seem to make sense of this argument. "colonialism is a pejorative for acts of colonialism"

[heavy pagoda]

ive seen a similar proxy argument with like ' was thing historically accepted/did it exist in the past' being a proxy argument for 'should people be doing this thing'

[silent junco]

i would argue that the imperial attitude of america is inextricably tied to most of americas problems, both domestic and abroad

[blazing pawn]

Colonialism as it has been understood academically and legally post ww2 is a pretty specific thing. I do not think, say, US support for south korea qualifies as it, independently of whether US support for south korea is good or bad

[dire robin]

The closest thing to colonialism is unequal exchange nowadays. Not US support of it’s allied countries

Colonialism establishes colonies, I.e. more direct ownership of some foreign lands. Imperialism is a general description of spreading your influence to other countries

Though this may be a bit oversimplifying

I think Lenin describes Imperialism better than most definitions nowadays do

[blazing pawn]

Obviously this discussion is somewhat academic but i think it is a distinction worth making because something like israeli settlements in the west bank or chinas population displacements in xinjiang are things that actually have much better claims to the label of settler colonialism and broadening the definition of the term so much obscures that

[silent junco]

i mean okay but this is kind of a nothingburger statement. its predicated on some notion of "power" and "control", but the root of the issue is that nobody agrees on what that actually means. like does any sort of military support constitute power and control?

[blazing pawn]

I mean thats literally my point

[flat harbor]

using colonialism to refer to us influence in south korea reminds ppl of japanese colonialism in korea and i think that this is very deliberate

context matters

[blazing pawn]

That "colonialism" is being used as a pejorative descriptor for such a broad range of things that it is not useful as an analytical framework

[dire robin]

They’re related, but neocolonialism is a more specific form of neoimperialism

[blazing pawn]

If its not clear i mean by some people which is what i am criticizing. I think settler colonialism is conceptually very important and has been an extremely useful analytical framework

What im saying is that because that framework is useful I think it is good to try to be precise about what we actually mean when we say it and not let it turn into a general pejorative for foreign policy we dislike

[silent junco]

anyway if we reflect on american history, we observe that from the beginning, the sustenance of white people in america was predicated on the enslavement of black people and the genocide of indigenous peoples. somewhat crudely speaking, ever since then, we've just been finding ways to replace slavery and land theft with other ways to accumulate capital and fight off the contradictions inherent in the american economy. this is where the "imperial attitude" of america comes from, and is in part responsible for most of the problems we see with america today.

[blazing pawn]

I mean sure but the choice to identify it as a pattern and try to discuss its more consistent features and use that to better understand how it happens is analysis i think

[ionic wraith]

[silent junco]

i mean to name a rather simple/apparent one, islamophobia within the us is largely due to agitprop used to justify warmongering in the middle east.

[blazing pawn]

Also I disagree about neocolonialism; I think its a useful concept

Though again because it carries obviously pejorative connotations to most americans it is easy for people who are more concerned with political rhetoric than historical/economic analysis to apply it too liberally

Maybe this is semantic but I dont think calling it a framework for analysis is particularly unique? i would say it basically describes most terms that attempt to group a broad range of things together and discuss them collectively

[silent junco]

i mean yeah most of this convo has been about semantics lol

[blazing pawn]

Well ok but i think the semantics of the word "framework" is not really substantive in the same way that clearly defining settler colonialism and neocolonialism is haha

[dire robin]

Referring to US propaganda as agitprop is a bit odd

[silent junco]

what do you think the prop in agitprop means. the us disseminates islamophobic agitprop, that was my point

a lot of economic issues can be framed in terms of grappling with the recoil of unequal exchange.

[blazing pawn]

I wasnt alive at the time so im not actually sure how true this is but my impression is that unfortunately the US government did not even have to do that much propagandizing

[dire robin]

I know the literal meaning, but it originated in the Soviet Union to describe Soviet propaganda efforts which were at least in my opinion quite different from what the US uses it for

[blazing pawn]

9/11 happened and millions of americans pretty instantly wanted revenge against "them"

Probably descriptive of something deeply sick in our collective psychology

[dire robin]

US media does that semi naturally

[silent junco]

i mean yeah this is the deeper reason, and there are some pretty reasonable explanations of this, but thats a rabbithole that this convo would never escape from.

thats only half the story. the other half is that its fundamentally an untenable dynamic, and both sides suffer from a constant push and pull until the whole thing unravels.

[left kite]

inshallah he’s cooking

[silent junco]

this has nothing to do with what im saying. my original point was about the us' imperial interests being inextricably tied to most of its problems, meaning we cant just kick the can down the road.

[jagged forge]

w h a t

[dire robin]

like capitalism

[silent junco]

blaming it on capitalism broadly isnt particularly useful either

[blazing pawn]

Anyway: I think that whether or not an issue or idea is "important" enough to warrant discussion is ultimately subjective. Like regardless of the psychology of whether someone is more interested in talking about settler colonialism or minimum wage policy, whats important is that that discourse is like, correct and a good analysis

Most people (myself included) are not that rational and think more about things that have particular emotional or practical relevance to them

otherwise we'd all be effective altruisming

[dire robin]

Imperialism is an essential part of capitalism

[blazing pawn]

I mean i feel like this is only true with regards to israel palestine specifically because from an american perspective it maps relatively cleanly onto broader historical relations between white and non white people

[sharp sage]

<@&268886789983436800> off topic

[blazing pawn]

Like idk i think with almost all other big political topics in america today no one really talks about it

[silent junco]

the us doesnt have settler colonies anywhere at the moment. its former settler colonies have been so integrated into the nation itself that the word "settler colony" is hardly relevant anymore.

[flat harbor]

ping me at the next discussion abt using the word fascism

[mental goblet]

greed ruined this world

[silent junco]

youre not making any sort of coherent argument here, and what you are saying is largely irrelevant to the conversation. the basic point im trying to make here is that the us economy needs an overhaul if the country is to stand any chance of surviving. this means that the labor that we've been outsourcing, the minerals we've been extracting, etc etc will need to be conducted in a fair and sustainable manner. whether or not this will bring about the "end of capitalism" or whether capitalism will stabilize under these conditions is not a prediction im qualified to make.

[frigid veldt]

..

Polygamy emoji_crine

[blazing pawn]

I think this is a problem of using "fascist" to describe a political configuration as opposed to a kind of movement

[silent junco]

because we rely on the very people we exploit. unequal exchange isnt just an unequal dynamic, its the progression of making that dynamic more unequal with time. it doesnt take much to see that at some point, we'll end up killing the very people who are sewing our clothes, mining our lithium, and manufacturing our toys.

[mint canopy]

Please keep discussion here more on-topic. This channel is intended to be somewhere people can have more mature conversations.

[silent junco]

this doesnt just apply to america

western europe and large parts of asia are part of the same dynamic by transitivity

[inner canopy]

idk if china and russia are doing that great realistically

like china is doing better than the US

[heavy pagoda]

china is doing okayish

russia is not doing great

i dont even think china is doing uniformly better than the us

[inner canopy]

but they sorta fucked themselves demographically and in the long run they'll have a lot of trouble
See also the market trouble that was caused by the real estate bubble almost popping in china

[heavy pagoda]

like economic grwoth is better in china sure but they have some big problems that are not existent at all in the us

yeah was going to mention the real estate bubble

yeah but it isnt a concession to admit this

[blazing pawn]

Even before the sanctions the russian economy was not doing that good i dont think

[heavy pagoda]

the reason they are under sanctions is that their entire geopolitical strategy is predicated on doing things that will incur sanctions

[silent junco]

anyway i wanted to respond to this because its a ridiculous argument. this is the same line of reasoning winston churchill used to justify the bengal famine while the british still controlled india, and look where that got them. they lost a great deal of power in the subcontinent, and suffered for it. im saying that we, too, will suffer for similar reasons but to a much greater extent if we dont rethink our practices.

[heavy pagoda]

this is just not true right

kind of an absurd thing to claim

[blazing pawn]

yeah i dont understand what that means

[silent junco]

idk im bored of this bye

[inner canopy]

I mean I very much believe that no modern nation state should exist

[heavy pagoda]

are you like 12 or something

[urban swift]

It was interesting reading the discussion and the different views.....

[sharp sage]

they are* /srs

[inner canopy]

Idk why you think that's a weird worldview to have lol

[dreamy crag]

What?

[hasty crown]

lotus water avocado (this is very serious)

[urban swift]

Just looked into that ....the base in ceylon and how it affected stuff

[dreamy crag]

<@&268886789983436800> posting this in multiple channels

[hasty crown]

never posted it in another channel, and it IS serious

[urban swift]

Can I ask what it is or shall I Google lol?

[dreamy crag]

Nearly the same thing and no it is not

It’s completely irelivent

[wild lantern]

You posting nonsense in multiple channels until ppl ping over it is not something I want to deal with.

Probably #chill or #discussion is more appropriate

Ah shoot looks like somebody else muted you

Well after it expires please try and stay on topic.

[dull socket]

serious lotus water avacado moment

[undone imp]

What Sirius is going on

[urban swift]

I don't have any advice on the eduction part my friend.....but I admire your skills

I have 0 math knowledge apart from what I've learned so far....but linear algebra sounds awesome....if you wanted we could chat in chill about it all

I apologise if this isn't fit for serious discussion....it may be...but even if it is fit for,,,,I still have a very small understanding,,,,,,but does anyone know anything about non linear algebra?

[steel blade]

Not very serious!

[urban swift]

OK I apologise.....btw nice dog ....I will hop over to chill

[steel blade]

Yes I know the quadratic equation

[dreamy crag]

…sure

[sharp sage]

I surely can not even cook up parody this extreme

Talking about parody poes law goes "any sufficiently cranky idea is indistinguishable from parody"

[sharp sage]

Surveillance in and of itself IS its own evil, you can do a lot of harm to someone simply by watching them, this damages them psychologically and not to memtion 69 different other bullshit that can be carried out

5s slowmode now?
Edit: No.

[dreamy crag]

It does kinda portray Lenin in a good light and I’m not sure that’s intentional

Overall I think he did good

Very complex figure who cannot be encapsulated in even a paragraph

But yes, I’d say his ideas and actions were an overall justified and positive act

[silent junco]

there are like a million better critiques of 1984 lmfao. very online leftist coded

[dreamy crag]

Although I haven’t read up on him much, so do take with a hearty mountain of salt

[dreamy crag]

Yep… this was under Jacob gellers most recent vid btw

[silent junco]

although in order to justify that surveillance is evil on its own, youd have to concede that any currently existing state apparatus is evil by necessity.

[sharp sage]

!offtopic

!redir

[quasi jetty]

This channel is only for on-topic discussion. Please take casual conversation to #discussion or #chill.

[sharp sage]

Who is he

Eritrea

Random thought that came to me that ethiopia actually has right to secede in its constitution, and Eritrea seceded in 1993 thanks to that

Although tensions existed long before that

[severe spoke]

iam very serious right now
that's why i entered #serious-discussion

don't laugh

😭

[sharp sage]

This chat is for uhhh serious topics like politics, religion and philosophy, you could goof off a little bit here but not shitpost or argue, and stay on topic

[severe spoke]

i beleive you

[glacial mango]

Since when is politics serious (I'm serious)

[sharp sage]

Since like when politics was a thing

[glacial mango]

Politics has always been pathetic

[severe spoke]

i hate politics

[glacial mango]

It gave birth to excess human desires, corruption and stuff

[severe spoke]

look at Russia
look at Ukraine
look at America
look at Israel
look at Iran
look at Lebanon

mother earth is crying

because her childerns are behind eachother's lives

[maiden panther]

I generally myself do not get political philosophy myself. As a person who does not understand why people align themselves to views that restrict their viewpoint, I do not disregard individual alignments but the idea in on itself.

Instead, we should all appreciate everything, like literature, and art. As Nietzsche himself so apt-ly put: "Beyond Good and Evil"

Idk if you guys have watched Kino's Journey or not, but the anime itself is an exploration of this theme: Freigeist (Free Spirit).

[stark trench]

I don't think I ever found it surprising, but I can understand why someone might. At the time, I was already well under the impression that the penal / "justice" system pretty much entirely exists for retribution, and I still think this, so I'm not really under the impression it's a particularly perverse incentive. Like, it seems to be that the "justice" system is working exactly as it's intended.

[maiden panther]

(Crime and Punishment)

[glacial mango]

Agreed.

[cedar radish]

same

[stark trench]

I guess I shouldn't be using the term "retributive" but probably something like "diminutive," in that the "justice" system is basically designed with the undermining of criminal's moral worth and importance in mind.

It seems really plausible to so many people that if someone behaves immorally, their welfare, interests, rights, etc. become less important and are superseded by the welfare, interests, rights, etc. of others.

Whereas I think this idea is pretty absurd.

[stark trench]

You can see this in the fact a lot of people find a system which would intentionally allow crime to occur to be undesirable.

[maiden panther]

I am reminded of:
"Without God, everything is permitted." - Dostoevsky, but instead applied to the justice system and crimes, a theme that appears in "Crime and Punishment" also a novel by him.

But, I am quite ambivalent about your argument. Rousseau in his book "The Social Contract" describes a government's primary job is to provide safety. So lenient laws and intentionally allowing crimes is technically against duty.

But on the other side, I think, a system cannot truly stop all crimes. If a system could, it would be totalitarian. Blackstone told: "it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer," an idea that I deeply relate to.

We should not allow innocents to suffer, even at the expense of guilty people parading our streets. If we build a system that allows no room for intentional error or privacy, we hand the state a skeleton key, which historically, systems used to eliminate dissent.

Autonomy is also equally important imo.

But that's just my opinion, that I have blatantly copied from books and the internet, and mixed them into incoherent mess.

[stark trench]

There are two major problems with the view I see, independently of my egalitarian commitments:

1. It's entirely arbitrary. Why should committing a crime, or some immoral action, make you any less important?
2. But further, the magnitude of your (moral or legal) diminishing is arbitrary. There's no good reason to prefer one level of diminishing to another.

Of course, it's also just really unintuitive. If I violate someone else's right to body integrity, e.g. by punching my brother hard, I don't thereby lose my right to not be shot and killed, even temporarily.

Of course, even if we accept that while I'm violating the law or behaving immorally, I lose some relevantly related set of rights, this doesn't entail that endures. So, it still makes the penal system almost entirely faulty. And, of course, the idea of this enduring is faulty for the basic reason that I have no control anymore over crimes I committed in the past!

[stark trench]

Safety for whom?

If the primary purpose is to ensure safety, then it ought to ensure the safety of criminals and non-criminals equally.

However, the idea of preventing "innocents" from suffering being more important, and bifurcating into two moral statuses of "innocence" and "guilt" just seems to assume the moral distinction I'm criticizing.

[maiden panther]

Rousseau said "safety" of the people, which by your definition, is inclusive of criminals.
Although, since I am a student in high school, I am quite detached from lived realities.
So, its hard for me to relate to criminals. maybe, its just me

I have never spent the time to think about criminals, nor have I met them

[stark trench]

It's alright. You've probably met quite a few criminals.

[maiden panther]

The problem is: we never know who belongs to what background, and who is living what hardships. This is why empathy is hard.

(Category Theorists?!?)

[stark trench]

I think we should probably just practice pretty universal compassion. This aids empathy a lot.

Rarely are people doing things just to be evil or whatever, though, and I think this is pretty intuitive and obvious.

[maiden panther]

There are many philosophies that deal only and only with birds eye views, abstraction, and structure.
(Ontic Structural Realism is one example among many).

The point is, such philosophies form modes via which the individual and the nation by extension operates.

Ridiculous nonsense is all that exists.
You cannot prove anything is not ridiculous (read Notes of the Underground Man by Dostoevsky, or The Dreams of a Ridiculous Man)

[stark trench]

I mean, it's not hard to empathize with people who do unreasonable stuff.

[maiden panther]

That does not make them any different from other criminals who do it for reasons.
People do not have to have reasons behind each and every move they do.

I pace here and there when I wake up for no reason.

[stark trench]

But even if you can't empathize with someone, that's fine. You don't need to do that to understand they also have interests and desires.

Yeah, and that's fine. You're not the only person in the world.

Hmm, why so? I don't think other people doing stuff is good reason to do it. But you can prioritize yourself in certain respects without treating criminals and people who behave immorally as morally less important.

[stark trench]

Often people will say, plausibly, that many of our duties are relational, e.g. I have unique obligations to my friends and myself I don't have to others.

[odd narwhal]

There are still usually logical reasons, just not ones that are necessarily clear to the perpetrator or those around them

[stark trench]

I think he was thinking in terms of intentionality rather than a causal narrative.

That is, could Samantha tell us what her reasons were for killing Paul, or could she not? Or would her narrative be implausible / hard to understand?

It does represent the vast majority of crime, but I'm fine talking about things like mass child murder.

A large portion of crime in many places is drug trafficking and drug possession.

If you prioritize yourself, you'd probably want these things to be legal so if you, for whatever reason, get addicted in the future, you can't go to prison for it.

[stark trench]

Like, I extend this also beyond just the "justice" system.

I don't think you should have any sort of "community accountability" either. I think it's outrageous.

[maiden panther]

Being alone is not necessarily bad.
But, that makes you blind to your follies and strengths. An observer cannot be the observed.

So, bothering with yourself and losing sight of others is not necessarily something all that to be applauded.
Self-care is a must, and understanding yourself is good, but, pushing away others, and thinking of them as less important, that's where the line nis

[stark trench]

Yeah.

You probably wouldn't. Those are more likely a result of poor government policy than anything else.

By that, I mean imprisoning people who use arbitrarily selected substances the government doesn't like.

[stark trench]

Compare this with "give me an explanation as to why Samantha killed Paul." Obviously we can give an explanation, it's not a brute fact that she killed him.

We might even be able to give an explanation which is hermeneutically insightful, and helps us make sense of the meaning behind her actions.

You know people don't disappear and go into a dimensionless space known only as the Void they don't return from when they go to prison, right?

Oh, and that is?

Hmm, not really. I'm curious as to what you're suggesting, though.

I'm very interested in solving addiction.

<@&268886789983436800> hi! this person is suggesting we kill all addicted folk. not sure if this kind of attitude is tolerated here. i surely wouldn't tolerate it, but maybe you guys are fine with it. it is #serious-discussion after all

we're very serious here. here we can discuss the most serious issues, like whether we should kill every addicted person

[sharp sage]

Valid guesswork

[stark trench]

I was just hoping they'd say it so it'd make it easier on me. ^^

[odd narwhal]

Supporting eugenics will get you banned, yes

"antisocial" is also what the nazis called then

[sharp sage]

Why do we even have stigmas against saying extremely stupid takes that we resort to hinting about them like this even though they are entirely useless at hiding your ideology

Like atp just state it