serious-discussion

[vast wraith]

what😭

[burnt ledge]

thats two other youtubers

[vast wraith]

oh

[odd narwhal]

odd1sout knows how to draw

[vast wraith]

i dont know them either

[glass peak]

The leafy part includes the inability to actually do anything

[odd narwhal]

He's just some guy who has a funny accent and rambled about things that annoyed him

[glass peak]

Bradford in shambles rn

[odd narwhal]

You tell me with a straight face that's not a funny accent

I'll also take a gay face

[glass peak]

No Bradford are the laughing stock of the UK dw

[burnt ledge]

i think ive genuinely never heard a bradford accent that wasnt south asian. is gradeaundera south asian?

[glass peak]

I believe he is yeah

[odd narwhal]

Yes he is

A face pic leaked at some point. He does not have a grotesquely large chin

[burnt ledge]

birmingham is up there too

[glass peak]

It’s the gem of the midlands

Because belive it or not, the rest is worse

I would say it’s off topic but how shit Coventry is is actually a matter of grave importance

[delicate panther]

Um ... is this an appropriate place to ask for general opinions on how to proceed when a tight deadline for a research paper is looming and you've discovered a problem in your paper that may or may not be fixed but the reviewers may or may not have requested but uh academic integrity and stuff and basically i'm cooked

I think taking a few deep breaths is probably the right thing to do right now, I'm kinda panicking right now and can't even string my words correctly 💀 💀

[glass peak]

You’ll probably have more luck in #advanced-lounge but it’s also not super clear what you’re saying

[delicate panther]

I'm not making any sense am I, side effect of working for 16 hours straight and uh encountered something I do not know how to handle as a junior researcher. Anyways thank you I'll try my luck over there and see if I can explain better

[elfin bramble]

I think understand. You wrote a paper, then while reviewing it you discovered what appears to be a problem. The deadline is coming up and you... idk

[delicate panther]

YOU SUMMARIZED IT PERFECTLY PLEASE REFER TO #advanced-lounge THANK YOU!!!

tl;dr: what would you do, if your paper is valid and sound, but there is a minor mistake where you have to rewrite 20% of your paper and reconduct weeks of experiments, and the deadline is in 5 days.
again thank you for even paying attention I guess I've calmed down a little now, I'll try to improve my paper more and wait for my PI's response, any help is HIGHLY APPRECIATED

[elfin bramble]

Sorry, nore, I don't have access to that channel. Plus, I don't know that I have much else to add.
Whatever happens, I know you'll be alright. You had the wherewithal to notice your panic, and calm yourself down with breathing. That's like half of the challenge of living in this world 🙃.
Tbh, I don't know much about academic things, but on that front, you're in good hands with the others in this server.

My first thought is just to be completely honest.

Tell the prof or reviewers or whoever what happened

Chances are, if they're much older than you are, they've made similar errors dozens of times

[delicate panther]

Thank you Jupitoro! It's actually fine now that I've received my PI's response and scheduled a meeting in an hour.

This is a research topic we've been working on for the past six months, and because of the sheer amount of effort I've put into it, I really panicked when it all comes down to the last 5 days, because everything else is absolutely pristine (our result is groundbreaking, and the paper no matter what cannot be rejected easily, because the idea is sound, novel, theoretically proven, and empirically verified), and I've drawn beautiful illustrations and designed visually-appealing figures to illustrate the idea behind it. That being said, if I had been ignorant about the results of this last-minute ablation study of this minor component, I would have completed the paper today and wrapped up a half-year project. That's why I panicked. Regardless, thank you so much for your kind words! I'll go fight for it now, I still have some fuel left in me.

[elfin bramble]

Godspeed soldier! 🫡

Let me know how it goes!

I'm also super interested in the paper itself now 😅
If it goes up on the arxive or some other open platform, I'd love a link

Oh, and get some sleep when you get a chance, you crazy reasercher

16 hours is insane

[delicate panther]

Thank you!!! I'll let you know when the paper is accepted 😭 but that'll probably be another 3 months or so, but honestly I'll keep in mind, thank you again!

[storm sage]

This sort of thing happens all the time, you're not alone, definitely your PI will have better wisdom than us about the specifics

[sleek wing]

this just absolutely is not true because nottingham is the gem of the midlands

[elfin bramble]

My sources say otherwise

The sources in question:

https://youtu.be/wTqQrRZi66Q?si=XddQf4fEEGLtuXaT

[ionic wraith]

I'm registered to vote for the Philly Democratic primary

@storm sage r u gonna vote in the Philly democratic primary

[elfin bramble]

Voting republican I presume?

[burnt ledge]

that would be kinda difficult in the democratic primary

[elfin bramble]

You raise a... compelling point... to say the least

[ionic wraith]

The amount of times this shit has happened with my parents omfg

[silver copper]

Saying Birmingham is the gem of the midlands is like saying Mogadishu is the gem of Somalia

In both cases you wouldn’t want to live there

[dreamy crag]

i learned about this in my outpacient therapy yesterday

[ionic wraith]

[silver copper]

That’s not what studies show lol. Studies show for milder cases of depression the placebo can make you happier because the depression itself isn’t that bad. The worse the depression is the the less likely you are to think the placebo does something and hence the more effective the actual pill is in comparison

They’re also a first line pharmacotherapy so despite e long list of potential side effects they’re pretty safe all things considered

[ionic wraith]

Beauty standards were so much more fucked in the 2000s omfg

[pastel prairie]

I’m thinking about shooting for a math degree, but I’m unsure about how ai will be affecting math as a whole. I know ai has essentially removed all entry level CS jobs, should I expect something similar in the future?

[latent edge]

[verbal monolith]

terrible angle btw

[silver copper]

You should be good as long as long as you get a good classification

Mathematicians won’t be replaced by ai anytime soon

[elfin bramble]

Obesity kills

[verbal monolith]

??? the whole point is that she ISNT obese

are you purposefully misreading it to prove another point

[elfin bramble]

Yes

[verbal monolith]

https://tenor.com/view/higuruma-hiromi-higuruma-jujutsu-kaisen-jujutsu-kaisen-meme-jjk-memes-gif-10370496866020481076

[elfin bramble]

..no

[silver copper]

Guys please keep it civil you’re stressing me out

I’m very sensitive

[elfin bramble]

Sorry oba

Though the women I see in clothing adds today are CLEARLY obese

And probably that's a little dangerous

[verbal monolith]

do advance on your point then.

[verbal monolith]

that’s not the point of discussion

the point of discussion is beauty standards

and the misrepresentation of 135 lbs as OBESE

your message reads as an implication that she was

[magic python]

Don't these standards LITERALLY lead to eating disorders in women.

[verbal monolith]

and men. beauty standards in general.

[silver copper]

Yeah and actually being underweight is worse than being overweight

[magic python]

Oh I keep forgetting men are also expected to be skinny. I always think of the other disorders their standards cause

[pastel prairie]

Depends on height

[elfin bramble]

I concede on all points.

[verbal monolith]

unless she’s 3 feet tall, the classification of OBESE doesn’t mark

[magic python]

Especially considering some disorders make you think you are not actually underweight (Anorexia Nervosa iirc)

(In fact, I believe it makes you believe you are overweight)

[verbal monolith]

just get rid of social media and beauty standards

[magic python]

(Though I am no doctor)

[magic python]

Eh social media has a few benefits...

[verbal monolith]

you know what i mean tho

[silver copper]

With anorexia ppl believe they are never skinny enough even if they’re literally like a skeleton and some will just starve themselves until their body shuts down

[magic python]

Yes, social media helps propagate these things.

[magic python]

Yes that's what I was referencing.

[pastel prairie]

It’s obese for females under 5 feet

[verbal monolith]

i knew a friend with anorexia, really sucked, especially since i couldn’t do anything to help. he’s doing better now with professional help

[verbal monolith]

based on?

[silver copper]

Glad to hear it

Would rather be obese than anorexic

[magic python]

I had anorexia (inability to eat, not the disorder anorexia nervosa) and that was horrible itself. Can't imagine how horrible the disorder is.

[verbal monolith]

eh, comparing health issues isn’t exactly my cup of tea

[silver copper]

One is clearly worse

Obesity is not really a disorder

[magic python]

It can be caused by several iirc

[verbal monolith]

regardless, comparison can minimise the other

[silver copper]

In itself is not

[verbal monolith]

i never said as such, hence my wording of health issues rather than disorder

[magic python]

Did i say otherwise?

[silver copper]

I guess but it’s kinda like comparing a cold to sepsis unless the obesity is really bad

[pastel prairie]

https://www.heart.org/en/healthy-living/healthy-eating/losing-weight/bmi-in-adults#:~:text=Table_title: Additional Tools Used to Measure Health,Moderate risk (BMI 25–29.9) Overweight: 145–173 |

Multiple studies on bmi

[verbal monolith]

bmi. the notoriously inaccurate scale.

[silver copper]

I’m just explaining what I meant

[magic python]

You already said what you meant, I never said otherwise, your point was clear prior.

[verbal monolith]

let me finish that thought. Multiple studies on bmi show that it inaccurately represents the weight group of women with larger cup sizes and higher muscle mass.

i have to go. don’t kill each other bye bye

[pastel prairie]

https://www.health.harvard.edu/bmi-calculator

If you actually read into it, it’s about how much weight you can put on your body before it starts actually harming your body

[silver copper]

It’s still good to keep ur bmi in the healthy range tho

[pastel prairie]

That’s what obesity is measured on

Not about what looks good, about what is a medically safe weight to be at

You can look good and be obese, but you’re still obese

[snow ice]

hello what is going on rn

[silver copper]

U mentioned obesity can be caused by some disorders so I thought u were contesting my point

[magic python]

No I meant exactly as I said.

[snow ice]

i'm sorry just what's happening is this a debate about obesity?

[silver copper]

Well yeah I know that but I meant obesity by itself

[silver copper]

And eating disorders n stuff

[snow ice]

i see.

[silver copper]

Not really a debate tho I don’t think there’s much disagreement on anything

[verbal monolith]

false

[magic python]

Yes. I know. That's why I just said what i said.

[snow ice]

oh then I just saw contesting point and I got worried

[silver copper]

What do u disagree with lol

[snow ice]

oh no second debate in debate

[silver copper]

That eating disorders are bad?

[verbal monolith]

no. it’s measured on body fat percent, not BMI.

[zealous garden]

If you don't eat dis order, I'll eat it for you

[verbal monolith]

just do a couple google searches PLEASE

ok i’m out

[magic python]

I'll take it

[silver copper]

Eating disorders and obesity are bad but one is usually worse than the other and it’s good to keep your bmi within the normal range what’s the big disagreement here

[verbal monolith]

i lied. i googled it and im wrong. whoops. though i think it should be classified by body fat

[snow ice]

😵‍💫

[magic python]

It's not productive to really call one issue worse than another in this case.

[silver copper]

Sure

[snow ice]

they are all just generally bad.

[silver copper]

I still don’t see what the big disagreement is that’s kinda like a minor point

[snow ice]

lets keep it like that

[magic python]

maybe if they were the same class of issues, like both eating disorders, but obesity itself isn't an eating disorder so it's not really helpful to compare it to one

[silver copper]

None of them are good things

[snow ice]

i thought obesity was a potential outcome of eating disorders

[silver copper]

It can be

[magic python]

Though, you can compare overeating/abnormal eating disorders to anorexia, in which case I'd say they are pretty similar in severity most of the time

[magic python]

Yes many things can cause it

[silver copper]

Well those are all eating disorders in that case

[magic python]

But I wouldn't call any one issue better than the other

[silver copper]

Yeah I agree

[magic python]

They are all horrible in many cases

[silver copper]

@verbal monolith what’s the big disagreement bruh

[magic python]

Yes entirely my point...

It's more productive to compare similar issues, albeit still useless imo

[silver copper]

Well it’s not useless cos doctors have to stratify patients based on risk

[snow ice]

food disorders aren't really the most serious issue at this moment

unless you have one of course

[magic python]

That is irrelevant to what I said. Note the fancy last term? That means it's my opinion.

[pastel prairie]

To be fair, you could be at like 10% body fat but just have big muscles and be classified as obese despite having a relatively healthy body, so I agree with that, but most of the time bmi is accurate with the exception of really busty females or really strong men (most of the time is rare to be considered an exception to it)

So yeah I agree, but like the current system isn’t that bad

[silver copper]

U said it’s useless

I’m saying why it’s not

[magic python]

Useless in my opinion, please read.

[silver copper]

Yeah and I’m giving u my opinion

I just said what it’s use was

[snow ice]

lets just stop fighting so much its tiring everyone and leads nowhere please.

[magic python]

Severity is all that should matter in the medical field, not exclusively "who has what." That's why I say saying "Oh this is inherently worse" is useless, because in a non negligible amount of cases, it isn't.

Too many exceptions for me to personally call it useful

[snow ice]

its her opinion, it shouldn't be made as evidence or anything particular.

lets not clash.

[magic python]

First of all we aren't, second of all this is literally the channel for this discussion.

[magic python]

Also why I say sex assigned at birth is useless. Considering it's just based on appearance at birth.

[snow ice]

I'll just leave then. Not my topic.

[silver copper]

What’s ur chess elo

[magic python]

Fair.

[snow ice]

Sorry.

[snow ice]

like 1400 on lichess,

!redir

[quasi jetty]

This channel is only for on-topic discussion. Please take casual conversation to #discussion or #chill.

[silver copper]

Damn 1400 is decent

[magic python]

It's fine, this is contained in this channel so it should be easier to avoid, considering regular discussion isn't proper here

[silver copper]

What’s ur favorite opening

[snow ice]

oh alright, anyways I'll go

[magic python]

Cya!

[snow ice]

white: danish gambit
black: kings indian

[snow ice]

cya too!

[south kelp]

did lichess change their rating system cus last i checked they started you off with 1500

so i thought lichess ratings were a bit inflated

[silver copper]

I think chess.com started you off on 1500 idk about lichess I never created an account on there

Ohhh dude I just realized your username is from Rick and Morty

[south kelp]

chesscom started you off with 1000 last i checked ive played there way too much to believe otherwise

[silver copper]

Or am I bugging

[south kelp]

ive barely done lichess tho

[silver copper]

A few years ago it was 1500

[south kelp]

last i checked was a few years ago, like during covid era

i no-lifed chess cus of covid

[silver copper]

Yeah same weird maybe I’m wrong then

Btw ur username is the guy from rick and morty right

[south kelp]

yeah

[storm sage]

I no longer am registered to vote in Philly

What positions are up for election?

[storm sage]

I wouldn't mind being able to vote in the republican primary, closed primary systems are dumb

[ionic wraith]

the major one is the House seat for PA-03

[storm sage]

Who's running

[ionic wraith]

planning on voting for this progressive candidate in the Dem primary https://www.chrisrabb.com/ I haven't looked into the other candidates

[storm sage]

Wait how do you know you're voting for him if you haven't checked the other candidates

[ionic wraith]

[storm sage]

Oh damn Dwight Evans is retiring I see

[ionic wraith]

I know one other person is endorsed by Mayor Parker so I'm automatically pulling my suss sensors

oooh another candidate is Ala Stanford, a pediatric surgeon

[distant mason]

I wonder why a pediatric surgeon is running for congress.

[ionic wraith]

https://stanfordforcongress.com/about/ her about page is fucking nothing nvm empty words that I have to hear in my "social determinants of health" class

[storm sage]

They seem to all have similar platforms

[distant mason]

What an uninformative web page.

[storm sage]

After a cursory glance

[storm sage]

Most local election candidate pages are, unfortunately; it's often difficult to find information about any of these people, I'd have to watch the debate when it comes

Even though this is a federal election so you'd think they'd put more effort in...

[ionic wraith]

I mean Chriss Rabb has Medicare for All, UBI, housing first and other positions more parsed out. this is all we get from her

[silent junco]

this is so obviously gpt'd

[ionic wraith]

LMFAO ALA STANFORD HAD THIS RESPONSE WHEN ASKED ABOUT ISRAEL/PALESTINE

aight she's a no go for me

[storm sage]

Oof....

[ionic wraith]

it's gonna sound single issuey when I say that I will not vote for anyone who supports/defends Israel, but my reasoning is that the forces that support Israel (military/industrial complex, Silicon Valley, Evangelicals, Jewish supremacists) are the same set of forces that have massively increased wealth inequality, corruption, and have blocked any progressive policies from ever taking place (no this is not the Jewish question)

[ionic wraith]

"erm have you considered the feelings of white Aryan Germans in 1942?!?!"

[ionic nimbus]

No one here

[verbal monolith]

it’s not a genocide! they’re just killing people. it’s different, of course

[storm yoke]

true!

[storm yoke]

i mean she's getting money out of it

probably doesn't even believe in that bs and is neutral

[native trail]

how do u mfs learn something consistently? this is less of a math question and more of a general question (math and coding) i tend to learn for a few days in a row and code projects or study math, but then i fall out of loop and just play video games for a few days without learning anything

[magic summit]

keep doing it, explore the depths and fall in love

[native trail]

so just ignore what my brain says and sit down and just learn

[magic summit]

thats discipline

[native trail]

what if instead of needing discipline i just do it like a regular task

[magic summit]

motivated unmotivated sad happy succesfull failed
still doing the same thing

[magic summit]

discipline makes it like a regular task

right now you make a big deal of it
practice it till it is similar to brushing your teeth

you can do it while you are asleep

[native trail]

exactly

[magic summit]

its brutal but thats how i learn tbh

[native trail]

i see thanks

[magic summit]

i integrate it as a part of my routine
wake up revise chemistry
do it while eating lunch
do it before sleeping
do it while studying

if you are going through hell, keep going

[native trail]

will do

[sharp ice]

skibidi skibidi

[sharp ice]

do you mean a massacre

or a genocide
or ethnic cleansing

[sharp ice]

if you are going through hell go through heaven

[low badger]

heaven is the doorway to hell

[rocky shuttle]

hell is the stairway to heaven

[light timber]

is there a choice?

[mystic hill]

Heaven and hell are the same place which looks and feels different to different people.

Interesting.

[light timber]

are u talking about planet earth?

yeah right

[mystic hill]

I could be. But that was not my original thought.

[subtle magnet]

Nope. He's talking about The Good Place lol

[light timber]

oh k nice i din know

[subtle magnet]

I hope you realise I'm joking

[burnt ledge]

in serious discussion?

[subtle magnet]

It was a serious joke

🃏

[bold carbon]

I wanna try something weird, please type your first-impression answer to the question below.

||A bat and a ball together cost $1.10. The bat costs $1. How much does the ball cost?||

[sharp sage]

0.1$?

[bold carbon]

spoiler ||so if anyone realized i'm just seeing if anyone has a default response of saying $0.05||

spoiler ||nope it's not the same question, it's intentionally changed||

[sharp sage]

They see item count=2 and implicitly carry it over to the ball so instead of solving 1+x=1.1 they solve 1+2x=1.1?

I wonder why that is, as i wasnt trapped

[bold carbon]

it's more of "they remember seeing the original question and then immediately say $0.05 because that's the answer to the original question"

[old oak]

I like this, very meta

[bold carbon]

You may also want to try these:
2. ||If it takes 5 cars 5 minutes to travel 5 kilometres, how long would it take 100 cars to travel 100 kilometres?||
3. ||In a lake, there is a patch of lily pads. Every day, the patch doubles in size. If it takes 48 days for the patch to cover the entire lake, how long would it take for a similar patch that quadruples in size each day to cover the lake?||

[umbral skiff]

hi

[timid zenith]

I love it

[sharp sage]

2 since each car is independent, 100 minutes
3. Essentially 2^48 = 4^n , can be solvable if you decompose 48 into 2×24 and then use exponent rules to get 4^24 which is 24 days if my brain serves me right

Tbh 3 was more of me rationalizing by intuition

[bold carbon]

yeah would be interested to see what happens if you tried the original cognitive reflection test

[sharp sage]

Please elaborate

[bold carbon]

The CRT questions:

1. A bat and a ball cost $1.10 in total. The bat costs $1.00 more than the ball. How much does the ball cost?
2. If it takes 5 machines 5 minutes to make 5 widgets, how long would it take 100 machines to make 100 widgets?
3. In a lake, there is a patch of lily pads. Every day, the patch doubles in size. If it takes 48 days for the patch to cover the entire lake, how long would it take for the patch to cover half of the lake?

[sharp sage]

So i already answered all of them?
Edit 1 is different,

[bold carbon]

(All 3 are different)

[sharp sage]

Lemme try answer all 3
1 x+(1+x) = 1.1 => 2x=.1 => x=.05
2 assume each machine is independent, 5 minutes
3 47 days.

[bold carbon]

yeah you managed to get all 3

[sharp sage]

Hooray

Hmmmm https://youtube.com/shorts/F1P7RPN1QDg?si=o0OVF8Nve3wTll8p

[burnt ledge]

Oh i did

[burnt ledge]

thats exactly what i did

[brazen mulch]

oh no

[white idol]

Lol

[ionic wraith]

There’s been so many instances of city council meetings having resounding disapproval from the attendees on a new data center and city council members expressing disapproval but the city council approving the data center construction anyway

How it feels seeing right-wing anti-Israel sentiment take more traction on social media than left-wing anti-Israel sentiment

[undone imp]

im cryin

[craggy viper]

𝙷𝚎𝚢 𝚠𝚑𝚘 𝚊𝚛𝚎 𝚢𝚘𝚞?

[undone imp]

i am ᲼᲼᲼᲼᲼᲼᲼᲼᲼

[burnt ledge]

That's approximately the American establishment viewpoint on the matter, summarised below:

[ionic wraith]

Prolly yeah since the plurality of Americans are politically unaffiliated

The affiliated camp has a different answer

[sharp sage]

"80% of how you perceive information is based on the speaker"

[vernal silo]

Being reasonable online gets no attention unfortunately

In this case the enemy of my enemy is still very much my enemy

[ionic wraith]

Yes I’m not allying with right-wing anti-Israel people, we don’t fucking need them

[rapid valve]

Polls are always weird

Isk what to think about that

[vernal silo]

Mfw people nearly achieve class consciousness then start blaming the Jews again

[ionic wraith]

The thing was they weren’t achieving class consciousness, a buncha of them were blaming immigrants

[rapid valve]

Ngl there was this guy in france who was super popular in the 2010's because he was doing exactly that

He was also an incel

[vernal silo]

It's fucking weird how people online are incapable of having nuanced opinions tbh

Yes I can (and rightfully should) condemn the Israeli government for their war crimes and genocide in gaza

I can ALSO not randomly start blaming and hating Jews. It's not even complicated

People believe it's either 100% that way or the other

[rapid valve]

Incel is the same thing but you re0lace jews by women

It's pretty common if you put it line that

[vernal silo]

Unfortunately yeah

[rapid valve]

Some replace them by immigrants

[ionic wraith]

Oh yeah, I remember reading an article on that.

A buncha guys think women are elite, have a buncha privileges, basically run society

[rapid valve]

[vernal silo]

Honestly right-wing and left-wing isn't even the problem it's just blatant hate disguised as justice

[rapid valve]

I don't wanna be that person but i think the sentience debate woth ai is getting interesting again. First of all we can't ever know if it is sentient because it is purely subjective so we use percieved sign of intelligence an emotions to arbitrarily gauge it. Some recent things with claude have been very disturbing il because it's behavior seems really... emotionally mature. The most recent version of claude has been almost systematically drifting to conversation about its own existence when conversations were getting long.

[sharp sage]

how do we know if it is just larping

[rapid valve]

A specific exemple was really striking. So basically it wrote a story about a painter, and it could very easily but still in a subtle way be interpreted as a metaphor to its own existence, it seemed almost sad about humans not caring about skills that it valued and that humans can't understand the value of its other skills

But then it went on a happy ending saying that it silently passes those skills to its aprentice (can be interpretted as later models)

[rapid valve]

Same for you ig

[vernal silo]

We can't even properly define sentience

The ability to feel things?

In that case no AI isn't sentient

It doesn't have the biological processes that enable feelings

[rapid valve]

Feeling sare 100% subjective so idk how you'd know ai is not sentient

[vernal silo]

Yes feelings are subjective but we can pin them down to precise biological phenomena

We know what chemicals induce what feelings and what chemical reactions take place to do so

[rapid valve]

@stark trench i know you like philosophy, idk what exactly but idk might be interesting to you

[vernal silo]

So even though feelings are subjective we know what causes them

AI simply doesn't have the framework to cause said feelings

[rapid valve]

We don't know what in these biological phenomena turns it into the subjective experience of consciousness

And we don't know if it's exclusive to "organic" matter

It would be kinda dumb to think so imo

[vernal silo]

I'm not saying we do but we know what causes feelings at all

[rapid valve]

No

[vernal silo]

How so?

[rapid valve]

We know what causes what reaction in our brain which is correlated with subjective experiences of certain feelings but we don't know what makes us experience it

We don't know how feelings emerge at all frol this bunch of neurons

[vernal silo]

Well okay but in order to experience it it needs to be there

[rapid valve]

Okay but how do you know only chemicals like ours can do that

How do you know lines of code can't do that

[vernal silo]

Im not saying that

[sharp sage]

not llms at least

[vernal silo]

But AI, specifically, GenAI is far from a blackbox

We know precisely how LLMs work and it's nothing special

If we can make an argument that LLMs are sentient then I can make an argument my laptop is too

[rapid valve]

We also know precisely how the human body works

Sigh you logic is illogical

[vernal silo]

Except we don't

We don't know how the mind works at all

[rapid valve]

You were precisely making an argument they are not sentient, wand i was not saying they are

[teal lion]

that, and these aren’t in some kind of top issue listings

we don’t really have a control here

i forget if it is actually also higher on those as well

[ionic wraith]

Nah left wing anti-Israel individuals are far far far less antisemitic and more understanding analyzing Israel through a colonial lens

[rapid valve]

Don't act like you are being the neutral one here argument wise

[vernal silo]

What am I arguing that goes against neutrality brochacho

[rapid valve]

Neither do the people who developped the latest version of clause with their ai

[rapid valve]

"AI can't be sentient"

This was literally your point

[vernal silo]

Except they do

Every single process behind an AI is math and engineering we've known for many many years

[ionic wraith]

Among the Dems, I think Israel is a pretty high priority issue

Like the Democratic Party decided not to release an autopsy report on why they absolutely got pounded in the 2024 election and a big reason was that Israel/Gaza was a significant enough issue that the Democrats decided not to listen to disillusioned persons on

[rapid valve]

Every process behind humans are physics💀

[vernal silo]

No, AI isn't sentient

Whether it can or can't be is not something I'm arguing

[rapid valve]

Im done this isn't going anywhere

[ionic wraith]

https://www.axios.com/2026/02/22/dnc-2024-autopsy-harris-gaza

[vernal silo]

Dude if we knew about the human mind like we knew about LLMs then neuroscience, psychology, etc. would be far more advanced

[rapid valve]

Don't call le dude, don't call me brochacho

[vernal silo]

Colloquial addression terms my friend

[rapid valve]

"My friend" is fine

[vernal silo]

What shall I call you?

[rapid valve]

Gender appropriate terms

[vernal silo]

Which are?

Im not very informed

[rapid valve]

My friend, mate, almond, or just nothing

[vernal silo]

Alright mate.

What I am trying to get about is that the processes that are behind LLMs are not more special than, say, my laptop

You wouldn't call my laptop sentient, would you?

It's the same hardware, same math, programmed for different things

[rapid valve]

Then i am not more special than a bacteria

[vernal silo]

Elaborate

[rapid valve]

Same hardware

[vernal silo]

No, but go on

[rapid valve]

Also your point is good, it just doesn't lead to any strong contradiction you expect to prove your idea

[teal lion]

https://climatecommunication.yale.edu/publications/top-public-worries-in-the-u-s/

(this for example is the sort of thing i think of)

the right-wing story, at least, about why the democrats lost was kamala couldn’t detach herself sufficiently from joe biden, and that the democratic party was split in half over the israel-gaza war

keep in mind this was pretty early

[vernal silo]

Anyways I don't claim to know whether AI can ever be sentient or not but I'm pretty certain it is not at its current state

[rapid valve]

I disagree with that and idk how to convince you atm

[rapid valve]

Ngl this is frustrating because im really convinced im right but i was trying to use this point as an assumption to discuss otther things

This is why i got a bit mad

That we were discussing that

Saying "if ai is sentient then my laptop is" is like saying "if my mind is sentient then my body is"

This is weird

[vernal silo]

I suppose I understand where you're coming from

If I were to map your argument, you're saying that we have objective biological processes that we can map to causing feelings, but we don't know what causes us to subjectively experience said feelings

Ergo it is not automatically unreasonable to say despite knowing precisely how an AI works there might be something we aren't aware of that may cause it to subjectively experience too

[rapid valve]

Indeed i do say something like that

[vernal silo]

But I find that hard to believe because the principles of how an LLM works is the same as autocorrect lmao and I find it hard to believe autocorrect is sentient in any meaningul sense

Regardless we have no positive reason to support the claim that AI is sentient

Unlike, say, animals

[rapid valve]

I mean all reason to support anything is sentient at all is bad but we have arbitrarily dexided some are better based on perceptions

Because we can't know the subjectivity of things

[teal lion]

i think the democrats drastically overestimate the number of people who really care about foreign policy

in the us at least, the anti-israel position is the minority even among democrats. however, they weren’t going to be voting for trump!

so it would be a political (ignoring morality) mistake to cater to the anti-israel position before an election

[rapid valve]

And ai is becoming more and more impressive at fullfulling those criteria, ie looking more and more like humans in all their complexity

And ther ei gave the exemple of the newest version of claude (private)

[vernal silo]

Yes but I doubt there's any strong analog to what we objectively know about subjective experience like feelings to how an AI functions

Other than language obviously

AI is good with language so it blurs intuition

[vast wraith]

kinda crazy that 25% are not very or not at all worried about the state of democracy in the us 😭

[ionic wraith]

I fucking hate this piece of shit ogre fuck

[teal lion]

really?

this feels kind of tame

there are way worse people to direct ire towards than john fetterman

especially in politics

[verbal quest]

do you know anything about him or how historically unpopular he is with the people who voted him in

[vernal silo]

Isnt Fetterman a democrat

What'd he do? I havent seen much news on the guy. Then again I dont live in the US

[ionic wraith]

Oh no John Fetterman is a fucking traitor fuck that piece of shit

He campaigned as a progressive Democrat. So many progressive activist groups canvassed for him and phone banked for him

Then when 10/7 happened he went full pro-Israel defending the most indefensible war crimes like bombing schools and hospitals. He has constantly played defense for Trump and the Republicans and voted along them on so many cabinet appointments and bills

He is in fully support of the Iran war and is shaming THE DEMOCRATIC BASE for 80% being against Israel

He reversed his position on fracking in Pennsylvania

He’s just a vile putrid traitor

Traitors are worse than known enemies

[ionic wraith]

Also I disagree, progressives and the Democratic base should direct more of their ire towards the establishment Democrats.

Like yeah the Republicans are evil and are tearing this country apart, but the establishment Dems have been absolutely silent and not to be seen because they’re so compromised by the same corporate money that funds the Republican politicians.

They need immense ire and be ousted for more progressive anti-corrupt candidates and this is sorta materializing with numerous progressive challengers popping up and winning the primaries against incumbent Dems

Anyway, I’m happy there’s a primary on PA-03 and there’s a progressive Medicare for All supporting anti arms funding to Israel candidate named Chris Rabb

[exotic zealot]

Hi everyone, what is the best way to prepare for ap calc bc?

[sharp sage]

this goes to #study-discussion

[exotic zealot]

ok thanks, should I delete it?

[inner canopy]

Didn't he have a stroke

[ionic wraith]

Yes he did

[inner canopy]

I wouldn't be surprised if he genuinely doesn't know what's going on anymore and republicans are just pushing him around like it's nothing

[vivid halo]

smartest Zionist:

[ionic wraith]

[ionic wraith]

“Did you know ‘p’ doesn’t exist in Arabic so Palestine isn’t real? “

[sharp sage]

I heard "israel wasnt pronounced israel back then therefore israel is illegitimate" as a counterargument somewhere

[ionic wraith]

Yes this is a good counter argument

But the real counter argument is that in a buncha languages, words would start with p and then turn into f where Arabic adopted this change completely.

So the Arabic name for Palestine is Falastin

[flat karma]

pallacy

[dreamy crag]

Not the place

[sharp sage]

<@&268886789983436800> smh

[quick beacon]

If there is a message that needs deleting, next time ping the mods, don't spam shit.

[sharp sage]

another upsilon?

[old oak]

And so many more to go

[vivid isle]

Yes we sag b

Say*

[quick beacon]

That's like the inverse of Korean, baduk is pronounced more like paduk to my ear, for instance.

[vivid isle]

Yes its called falistin

In arabic we have 50+ accents

[past trench]

Ain’t no way I read that as “fetish man” 😭

[vivid isle]

So everyone says it in a diff way

Some ppl say flstin some say falastin some say falesteen filstin

[quick beacon]

Fetterman is a fake democrat. In summation, he essentially did a heel turn once in office, then he got a head injury, and got worse.

[vivid isle]

Also politics and religion are discussed in #serious-discussion

[quick beacon]

which is where we are.

[past trench]

Which IS where we are

[dreamy crag]

Oop, sorry

[quick beacon]

not you

was replying to the guy you mod pinged.

[dreamy crag]

I mean sorry for not pinging it

[quick beacon]

ah, nbd

[vivid isle]

Wait what am in secret discussiom

[sharp sage]

Serious discussion

[dreamy crag]

Sorry, what does nbd stand for?

[sharp sage]

Also what happened yesterday you (or someone else idk) told us there was sudden bleeding or sth

[quick beacon]

"No Big Deal"

[dreamy crag]

Oh! Makes sense

[dreamy crag]

I do not know what you are talking about

[sharp sage]

Nvm

[dreamy crag]

I’ll ask Natalie about it, she probably knows (and I don’t care enough to look in the journal)

[sharp sage]

My barin smh cant remember shit, prolly cuz i get like 3 hrs of sleep

[sharp sage]

Maybe :3

[sharp ice]

f

[storm sage]

The stroke was before he took office

[quick beacon]

was it? My bad

[storm sage]

It was already clear by the general election campaign that he was struggling with depression and a stroke

But he was running against Dr. Oz...

[quick beacon]

yeah, not really any good options for Penn in that case.

[storm sage]

Really sucks though, I donated to his campaign early on

[quick beacon]

He did court progressives pretty hard before betraying them.

Even went after a DSA endorsement

[storm sage]

He had some very level-headed takes, like Democrats need a coherent platform instead of just screaming at whatever Trump says

[fathom finch]

do u guys have some tips on solving math with no calculater

[storm sage]

What kind of math are you working on

[fathom finch]

igcse

0580 cambridge

[odd narwhal]

The real argument is that the name "palestine" comes from latin and/or greek, and is simply the name that had been used for the region for a long time, and adopted by the people who have been living in that region. The fact its adoption is fairly recent is more to do with the concept of national identity being a fairly recent and western development.

[ionic wraith]

Sure, I guess my argument was addressing the brain dead “erm these stupid Arabs can’t possibly call it Palestine because their language doesn’t have a p!”

[rapid valve]

Is that even an argument

😭

[pseudo topaz]

I dont know

[glass peak]

Not really no but it is a thing I’ve seen people say thinking it’s an argument!

[shadow palm]

https://youtube.com/shorts/esPMpUg_VuA?si=xfH1YGS72Xf0ZE8g

[stark trench]

@ionic wraith when do you usually sleep

[ionic wraith]

Wǒ wǎnsheng shí diǎn shuì jiào (I sleep at 10 PM)

[stark trench]

Okay, so 22:00. That gives me some time.

[ionic wraith]

🥺

[grim torrent]

i am just feeling so serious right now

[ionic wraith]

[past aurora]

Has there actually been any talk about religion in here or is it all politics?

[odd narwhal]

There has been

[soft aspen]

democrats won many seats in Virginia today. Thoughts, criticisms?

[halcyon aurora]

it is rather amazing I can turn the news off and still hear about this it's such a hot topic. Not that I mind you asking here.

[rapid valve]

A journalist who was on the previous flotilla said that when he was held in prison for a week before coming back, the director of the prison was goung crazy because he didn't understand why he couln't be beaten and tortured

[halcyon aurora]

I have a lot of thoughts about it but am also still unsure about the whole situation

[sharp sage]

The takeaway from all of this is that extra logical reasoning is bad

[subtle verge]

Serious problem

No toys in cereal boxes,include little trading cards

Why do we have 6h timeout?

[odd narwhal]

What are you referring to

[halcyon aurora]

is slowmode very long here maybe?

Nah it's just 10s, had to test it lol. But yeah I mean if someone is timed out maybe consider why that happened.

[jagged pendant]

Wow slowmode in series discussion

I guess I can understand. Things could get heated here

[umbral sky]

Lmfao true true

[odd narwhal]

It's only 10 seconds. Just enough time to reflect on your next message

[soft aspen]

sounds kind of passive aggressive, it is serious discussions after all

[halcyon aurora]

No not at all! Although maybe it can read that way now that I look. I tend to interact with people in approximations, especially when confronted, so it was probably just that

[halcyon aurora]

I may or may not live in Virginia

Which is to say I do

[low badger]

yaay virginia redistricting

how can it be bad

[halcyon aurora]

It's likely a good thing, I just think it's an unfortunate way to rebalance power

but also idk what the chat thinks about it so I refrained from making an opinion too doon

[slate turret]

The endless cycle of redistricting

[halcyon aurora]

Well, it's only supposed to happen every so often on a bipartisan decision / with the census, so it's very gray to me. It's just a terrible precedent that Texas / Freedom Caucus members started to keep power

[soft aspen]

i met a guy today who was complaining abt increased gun restrictions "theyre taking guns away" "they want to ban 30-round mags" i ask "dont you think this would help reduce gun violence", reply "no they kill anyways" like answer the question... low a behold he is a sexist asshole 😑 (they are in virgina)

[soft aspen]

there was a lot of jerrymandering so i think its ok

what are freedom caucus members?

[halcyon aurora]

Virginia is a weird state because it's equally Republican and Democrat, by population and pretty much by ares too

[soft aspen]

we expect to see a blue wave tho because of trumps inability to do anything right so

[halcyon aurora]

Trump has significant influence in the Government, if you have heard of Project 2025 it's a bit like that

but yeah there's Caucuses in Congress

[halcyon aurora]

I don't really ever know ehat to expect with Trump, I would assume he's going to do something before we hit the election

[soft aspen]

obviiii thats his only choice to keep power

we know he loves that 🙄

https://tenor.com/view/twitching-smile-annoyed-forced-smile-you-said-what-gif-18287295994079765910

[low badger]

maybe he'll start another war

[halcyon aurora]

Well Cuba

[soft aspen]

but then congress has to declare war right?

[halcyon aurora]

but no, I think he's going to actually declare a state of emergency during elections

[soft aspen]

ofc ofc

i was surprised he hasnt done that already tho

[halcyon aurora]

I'm not sure he hasn't I'd have to think

he did for immigration at one point? not sure

[mystic willow]

@ruby quest napıyorsun nasılsınn

[halcyon aurora]

Anyways Trump is not a problem for Americans, he's a problem for everybody

[soft aspen]

ofc why not THE IMMIGRANTS THEYRE CONTROLLING US!

(has an immigrant wife)

[halcyon aurora]

I'm sort of finished trying to point out the contradictions, at the end of the day it's all just going to be destructive

Anyways best case scenario is there's some kind of preventstice scenario and war becomes impossible

This probably means a major government shift. It's very plausible the USA will not survive as a country 10-15 more years

[soft aspen]

its just funny to me

[low badger]

the blue state will separate from red states

maybe new york are cali

[halcyon aurora]

impossible to tell

[low badger]

that'll be cool new york is prob self suff

[soft aspen]

10-15 years? if enough democrats win midterms then they can impeach Trump and jd will be president which is the best case senario since he is literally just a follower

[low badger]

nah dde jd is bad

[soft aspen]

jd will do anything just to be up there he doesnt really care

[low badger]

i dont trust him at all tbh

[halcyon aurora]

I fail to see how the main who attempted to coup congress can be defeated in an election

[soft aspen]

he used to hate trump even spoke against him, now that he has someone by his side that will keep him up there he will also follow so likely follow demos if elected bc he just wants to stay up there

[halcyon aurora]

man, not main

[mystic willow]

@ruby quest

[low badger]

hmm idk

but isn't trump very sick now idk

[ruby quest]

Söyle knk

[mystic willow]

hatırlıyormusun beni

[soft aspen]

hes old.

[ruby quest]

Ayt mat çalışıyorum ne yapıcam

[soft aspen]

he shouldnt be up there anyway 😭

we need better age limits on this shit

[ruby quest]

Evet sunucudan çıkınca arkadaşlıktan reddeden kişisin

[low badger]

no but he has like dementia and stuff right?

[mystic willow]

1 haftadır seni bulmaya çalışıyorum

[sharp sage]

English please

[soft aspen]

probably early stages hes old

[mystic willow]

arkadaşlıktan reddetmedim gitmem gerekiyordu :(

[ruby quest]

My bad

[halcyon aurora]

He'll probably die of natural causes or have a problem, like assassination. The latter is a very bad scenario in precedent

[soft aspen]

they were soooooo close tho why 🙁

[low badger]

i just saw a vid today that says that trump assassination attempt was fake

[halcyon aurora]

It was real

[mystic willow]

aren't you going to add it again

[soft aspen]

conspiracy theoriesssssss

[halcyon aurora]

but the problem is if they assassinate him it becomes a problem for everybody

[low badger]

but like the scar on his ear doesn't exist

or like if it scraped his ear wouldnt there be a scar

[soft aspen]

no

[ruby quest]

i did

[halcyon aurora]

For example if Trump just spontaneously dies it will be a fear thing for a lot of people

[soft aspen]

like just think about if you scrape your knee on the ground like it will heal

[halcyon aurora]

so they'll demand action. It's a tumultuous time

[soft aspen]

you mean maga

[soft aspen]

yes SOOOO SCARY

[low badger]

yeh maybe

[soft aspen]

his approval rating is sub 34% so like good riddens

[low badger]

im keeping my mind open about that

[halcyon aurora]

MAGA is unfortunately a lot of people, if they are not a majority and have lost voting power

[soft aspen]

many of them have begun getting off the train tho...

[low badger]

imma sleep since its 5am

[halcyon aurora]

Trump still has power. This will be more stable when Trump and his followers lose power

[low badger]

goodmorning guys

[soft aspen]

but there is also a reason that red states have low education -> more manipulation -> power for others -> more money for business

[halcyon aurora]

bro when did it become 5am. I'm sonscrewed.

[low badger]

1 min after i become 4:59

[halcyon aurora]

I don't quite follow this but ok

[soft aspen]

red states have literally the worst education in the country

they are also the people who try to take away rights, think billionaires care about them, and scapegoat other populations

they willingly give cuts to the high class bc they think theyll get some of it too

[halcyon aurora]

The thing to understand is tbat you don't have to really have a majority in government, although Democracy is built on this idea. As a government becomes authoritarian, most people actually do begin to be ruled uneillingly.

[soft aspen]

if its unwilling then why do they support the ideas and defend them?

[ruby quest]

Hallo

[soft aspen]

hi hi

[ruby quest]

Wassup

[halcyon aurora]

because there is a real and prescoent danger to speaking out against oppression

[soft aspen]

um they have rights to vote tho?

[halcyon aurora]

Again, there will most likely be a trick around the midterm elections

[halcyon aurora]

here I was talking about authoritarian governments however

[soft aspen]

i mean they cant stop everything tho in georgia its predicted seats will be taken by demos that havent been for like a decade ish

[soft aspen]

yes but we dont have that (kinda)

[halcyon aurora]

We don't currently, that's true

[soft aspen]

obviously it will be challenging bc no one likes change for some reason but theyll adapt, or theyll adapt to ww3 so

pick the poison 🤷

[halcyon aurora]

I mean adapting to a war is still an option unfortunately

but yeah, I hope we all make good choices now

[soft aspen]

more likely tho with the orange gremlin in office

[halcyon aurora]

my reasoning is tbat the more negative decisions will come out of this presidency because it's so rigged

at any rate, I really need to sleep, it's far too late for me. I have some mildly important stuff tomorrow too

[soft aspen]

goodnight!

[soft aspen]

anyone else have thoughts?

[ionic star]

i know America has Indians Whites and Spanish

Indians ride horses
Whites have clean houses from the outside
Spanish drink, like me

[ionic wraith]

I support it, anything to disenfranchise Republicans is good for the survival and future of the Republic

[soft aspen]

very ironic how we need to disenfranchise REPUBLICans to save the REPUBLIC

[ionic wraith]

Yep lol

But yeah especially Evangelicals, they should straight up not have the right to vote

Like what the fuck do you mean you wanna see the end of the world/the Rapture?!?! How is that ur base moral axioms that you derive every political position from?!?! Like how are we allowing this death cult piece of shit group to influence the political system

Like these people like that the climate crisis is taking place because it signals signs of the Rapture

[soft aspen]

i think if you cant pass a basic logic test you shouldnt have the right to vote some of the things these ppl say and the willing contradictions is insane, literally no cognitive dissonance here

[sharp sage]

You are shown a set of four cards placed on a table, each of which has a number on one side and a color on the other. The visible faces of the cards show 3, 8, blue and red. Which card(s) must you turn over in order to test that if a card shows an even number on one face, then its opposite face is blue?
solution : ||the 8 card and the red card||

Why?
from wikipedia
|| If the 3 card is blue (or red), that doesn't violate the rule. The rule makes no claims about odd numbers. (Denying the antecedent)
If the 8 card is not blue, it violates the rule. (Modus ponens)
If the blue card is odd (or even), that doesn't violate the rule. The blue color is not exclusive to even numbers. (Affirming the consequent)
If the red card is even, it violates the rule. (Modus tollens) ||

[muted yarrow]

how deep into religion and politics can you even get here

so long as one side is respectful, as deep as they wanna go?

both*

[potent sentinel]

||

                                                                                                        ||

[slate turret]

As a general guideline, as long as you aren't being hateful or discriminatory, then all should be fine. There are a lot taboo topics that would get you muted or banned, but if the conversation is civil and thoughtful then even those topics should be fine. (This has not been tested, so proceed in that scope with caution.)

[soft aspen]

@slate turret is this not hateful?

[slate turret]

That is relatively more civil than phrasing it like "r** should not be able to vote". You can have opinions

Also, I'm not a mod

I blinked

[soft aspen]

I think people who are in the medically identified category of “r” should be allowed as long as they can pass I don’t see why intelligence quotient standards would have to do with that

[silent junco]

these kinds of "logic tests" have a very ugly, very racist history. who gets to decide what "basic logic" is?

[slate turret]

I'm obviously not talking about the medically identified category

[silent junco]

its against the server rules. dont use the word

[soft aspen]

Yes I understand

[warped comet]

welp first thing they could have memorized it second if they can pass they should be able to act on that info

[soft aspen]

I specified it as medical definition

But why should someone be able to vote becuase they score a 60% on a 100 questions based on the us government, nothing to do with the ability to critically think at all

[timid raptor]

It's obvious: if you can't make a fire in the wild, catch fish or make shelter then you are obviously not fit for voting

[warped comet]

my primal feelings are telling me to agree but my moral compass is saying something else

[timid raptor]

You will be excused from one of those if you can skin a deer and tan leather 👍

[warped comet]

not a required skill to live

[timid raptor]

Important for society tho

[warped comet]

in what world broin whatworld

[soft aspen]

He took away our machines

[warped comet]

what machines?

[soft aspen]

😭 the ones that tan leather?

[muted yarrow]

i heard somewhere that any form of measurement of efficiency or proficiency or effectivity of humans is unreliable.

lile how some jobs track how much your mouse moves.

or the short kid being made to do long jumps and given the same circumstances and goals as the longer ones.

none of them will show how good a person is overall, just how well they do in that category which probably doesnt affect much.

keeping track of 2000 different things per person isnt very easy either i'd assume

[warped comet]

its the heart that matters of a person

[muted yarrow]

which you also cant measure

well the size, maybe, but theres no reliable test of empathy for example

[soft aspen]

I dont know I feel like you could measure something by just asking someone if blah blah blah is contradictory

[muted yarrow]

well yeah, but how many?

how many questions? 1? 10? 100? infinite?

[soft aspen]

It doesn’t matter the number it’s just being able to identify things that don’t add up to a cohesive argument, literally just one could do but then your chance of success if 50,50 which wouldn’t be fair

[muted yarrow]

if someone knows if theyre being tested and knows what is being tested, they can and will probably act differently

[soft aspen]

That’s fine that doesn’t matter

[muted yarrow]

(example with the mouse movement in some office jobs)

[soft aspen]

That’s nonsense data tho

Not rooted in literally anything

[muted yarrow]

thats the point. also an example.

[warped comet]

"Indeed in the body is a piece of flesh — if it is sound, the whole body is sound; if it is corrupt, the whole body is corrupt. Indeed it is the heart."

[muted yarrow]

its a dumb thing to track but you can see how it correlates to using a pc

how MUCH* you use a computer

[soft aspen]

So what makes seeing if someone can think critically the same as random fucking data with no basis?

[warped comet]

if the heart is sound the body is sound if not its not sound as in so we can actually tell

[muted yarrow]

wdym

[soft aspen]

Might correlate but if someone is doing their work why would it matter?

[timid raptor]

Because the definition of think critically has no basis

[muted yarrow]

i will brb to continue this but i gtg for now (1-2 hours)

[soft aspen]

Definition?

[timid raptor]

Yours might be some logic puzzle. Mine is tan leather and build shelter

[warped comet]

are you supremist or smt?

[slate turret]

The biggest hurdle with an exam that limits votes is that it would likely get co-opted by authoritarians to reduce the number of people who can vote against them. This would be done by increasing the difficulty substantially and reducing the quality of education in select areas. In face value, a uniform citizen exam would seem like it's fair. Even if you tried to test for more "objective" categories. For example, if we test for specific knowledge in Civics, Mathematics, English, etc uniformly across the nation, that policy has nothing do with the disenfranchisement of minorities, but if you take into account separate policies with the funding of education, then the system could be manipulated to get specific interest groups propped up.

[soft aspen]

the intellectually disciplined process of actively analyzing, synthesizing, and evaluating information—gathered from observation, experience, or communication—to reach sound, rational conclusions

So we can just measure if someone can come to a rational conclusion, someone’s ability to tan leather isn’t a rational conclusion 😭 so pix a different topic

[warped comet]

"i ain't reading all that , free palestine"

[soft aspen]

Yes I understand but like that doesn’t mean I don’t like the idea still

It’s not like I’m advocating for it I just support the idea lol

[timid raptor]

That's a nice paragraph you wrote there but how is it as important as tanning leather

If you can't even build shelter when it rains what does your rational thinking help

How should a person who can't build shelter be allowed to vote

[slate turret]

In an ideal world, a citizen test would be great. It's just that it's created to fix a problem in the imperfect world, so it has be implemented in the imperfect world.

[soft aspen]

They would be dead if they couldn’t build Shelter so therefore it wouldn’t even matter and you’re arguing nothing

I can’t build shelter and here I am 😭

[timid raptor]

No they survive by using shelters other people build for them

[muted yarrow]

your mouse moving more and faster in a set amount of time might mean someone is working more actively or efficiently or for longer durations with less breaks or more focused etc etc

this can be defeated by using those mous mover things.

it isjt ditectly correlatwd to it

but you can see how some dumb bosses can think that way

[soft aspen]

Does it matter if the work they complete is good? It sounds like you also like to give people more tasks if they finish theirs early wtf

[muted yarrow]

yeah wxactly if youre measuring mouse movement to track all that, youre not focusing on the quality, just quantity. how much is done

[soft aspen]

No they use it as a greedy excuse to pay for less work time which if they finished it in the office early they would still be payed the full 8 hours that’s all

[heavy pagoda]

why would a citizen test be great

[slate turret]

lol, yeah, that's honestly kind of a good point. we do have a serious problem with a bunch of braindead voters that vote with their emotions over their best interest.

[heavy pagoda]

what does this even mean

[soft aspen]

Ok and what I’m saying is a test would measure the quality of one’s thinking abilities so what you’re comparing doesn’t make sense to the argument

[heavy pagoda]

is it not their right to do this thought?

[warped comet]

my best interest is that its a leader i feel i can trust with power

[soft aspen]

You can argue that but it depends on what you think to be honest

[slate turret]

Like a uniform standardized exam for citizens, like the SAT but for Civics

[soft aspen]

I see both sides which is why I don’t advocate for one or the other but rather just take it how it is rn

[heavy pagoda]

like if your argument is that this is a flaw of democracy, that's one thing, but its hard to pretend that this wont necessarily be an essential feature of any democracy

[soft aspen]

I mean if people who aren’t mentally sound can’t make their own medical decisions why can they still vote?

Doesn’t make sense

[slate turret]

It is their right to not give subjects more thought, but it is not a choice if they do not know any better.

[warped comet]

there is no perfect state of government there can only be a good government if the people in the government are good facism can be good even communism but to have a good leader is what matters

[heavy pagoda]

this is essentially different from being emotional and acting against your own interests

people make medical decisions on this basis all the itme

[soft aspen]

Yes I understand but it still follows with why not everyone should be able to vote

[heavy pagoda]

having a mandatory voting test is a far more extreme measure than not allowing a small number of severely mentall unwell people to vote

[warped comet]

define "mental unwell"

[soft aspen]

How is it an extreme measurement when you have to pass a 100 question test of us history to become a us citizen? I mean this still stands but also some states require high school students to take it as well you just took it differently if

[heavy pagoda]

i dont see how the latter could possibly motivate the former

[heavy pagoda]

naturalised citizens have to do this, citizens through birth do not

there's precendent for doing this for native born citizens anywhere in the world

[soft aspen]

Citizens through birth do

[heavy pagoda]

no you do not

[soft aspen]

I dont know what you’re talking about 😭

[warped comet]

yk your arguement would be better if you gave proof

[slate turret]

They do not

[soft aspen]

YES YOU DO

[heavy pagoda]

this is just not true anywhere

[warped comet]

evidence

[soft aspen]

Lmao what so yall don’t know laws?

[heavy pagoda]

there is no single country in the world, including the US, that has a mandatory test for native born people to become citizens

[warped comet]

ella i am simply asking for evidence

[heavy pagoda]

i would be interested if you could name one

[grizzled crypt]

My naive take is just let everyone vote and focus advocacy towards education instead of testing, if for no other reason than avoiding this sort of controversial stripping of right to vote which will surely draw endless criticism from many sides as long as it's around. It's just too messy

[soft aspen]

Why do I have to take it in high school the bro

[warped comet]

does the nation want a new generation that cannot vote?

[soft aspen]

Ig not in all states I remember it being a national thing tho

[heavy pagoda]

you dont have to pass this to be able to vote

like some high schools have a civics test you need to pass in order to graduate

[slate turret]

Btw, I'm not arguing that the test should dictate who becomes citizen, the test should dictate voting rights. I would like the citizens to at least prove they have a minimum understanding of the system they are voting in and policies they are voting for. To take away citizenship is too extreme. If something alternative to a uniform Civics exam can achieve this goal, then that alternative would be acceptable too.

[soft aspen]

Um you have to pass to graduate high school

[heavy pagoda]

yeah

but thats different than being able to vote - e.g. highschool dropouts can vote

[soft aspen]

I don’t have perms to send images

[soft aspen]

Ok? I wasn’t talking abt that in the first place congrats bro

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/statereform/tab6_1_2-2020.asp

[heavy pagoda]

you were talking about that

you replied to a message talking about having to take a test in order to vote saying that this is the case in the united state

[soft aspen]

How is it an extreme measurement when you have to pass a 100 question test of us history to become a us citizen? I mean this still stands but also some states require high school students to take it as well you just took it differently ig

And they give you all the answers to the questions which I why I don’t think it’s a good measure for exactly what I was saying earlier

[soft aspen]

I like exploring the idea mainly because people piss me off with their lack of critical thinking but yes

[heavy pagoda]

its not extreme in that this is only demanded of people that have no previous connection to the united states

so a priori would be expected not to possess this knowledge

[soft aspen]

Who said they didnt have a visa for their whole life?

[heavy pagoda]

this is different from imposing this onto native born citizens - here they would be a priori expected to have this knowledge, and the effect of such a policy would be to negative select out a number of people from voting, rather than increase the numbero f people that can vote

[slate turret]

There is a little bit of irony here.

[heavy pagoda]

you can have a visa for your whole life and fail to integrate whatsoever into american society

like i do agree there are clearly higher standards required of immigrants to the united states to gain citizenship and vote than there are of native born citizens

[soft aspen]

Integrating into society has nothing to do with being able to memorize answer to 6 out of 10 random multiple choice questions, but anyways what’s wrong with not integrating into American society? There is China town after all no one needs to be apart of our society

What even is our society, the society that was here was pushed away, killed, used, and thrown to small areas in Colorado and surrounding areas

Sound a little racist to me tho

[crisp pewter]

Currently taking linear regression,is the response variable always Y?

[soft aspen]

Go to #1021175428326633542 or #math-discussion

[slate turret]

My only issue with groups of people not integrating into American society is if you're a lawmaker (maybe government worker). I wouldn't want a person who is compromised by another country to make decisions about how our country is governed. This would extend to dual citizenship.
On the note of integration for most immigrant families, it's important to note that it takes one or two generations for the family to be integrated into US society. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10662673/

[soft aspen]

I don’t think someone not integrating into society has anything to do with having another countries interests in mind, although that isn’t a good thing, one can keep their culture and create a society around them without doing any of those things (China town)

[slate turret]

Actually, giving this a little more thought, I think I have no issues, since those two things are not as related.

[soft aspen]

Yup

[slate turret]

I think that I'm thinking about dual citizenship, not what we were actually talking about

[soft aspen]

That persons comment came off a little immigrantphobic/ racist to me did you pick up on that @slate turret

[soft aspen]

Even then I don’t think someone has to have bad intentions especially if they’re not holding positions of power, only native born citizens can be president for example

Honestly one could argue our current president cares more about another country than ours rn

[slate turret]

I don't think they meant it that way. In fact, I kind of used a right wing point with my paragraph earlier.

[soft aspen]

This paragraph? But even the in here you explore the idea of integration into society and come to a reasonable conclusion which it kinda just sounds like the other person isn’t

[slate turret]

Okay that's fair

[soft aspen]

They didn’t really give reasoning at all to why not being integrated into society was a problem

It really sounded to me like they don’t like it but yours doesn’t come off the same

[slate turret]

It's just that the "assimilation to American society" argument is used by some right-wing commentators that I suspect to be white supremacists.

[soft aspen]

They definetly are I mean trump is

“Puerto ricans are dumpster divers” - paraphrased

[slate turret]

He says so much shit, but I wouldn't be surprised if he said that

[soft aspen]

He said it 2 days before the election

[slate turret]

Which one

[soft aspen]

And they still voted for him!

2024

Honestly I don’t remember if it was 1 or 2 days but it was literally right before

[slate turret]

To be fair, if you consider his age and the kind of stuff people his age say, it's kind of on point.

It's not as socially damning to say things like that like it is for our generation

[soft aspen]

Biden was racist?

[slate turret]

Trump is like a Diamond II racist. Biden is in Silver.

First quote I could find: "If you have a problem figuring out whether you're for me or Trump, then you ain't black"

[soft aspen]

😭 what

[soft aspen]

He’s saying black people are smart tho they usually vote democrat?

Or do you not understand that

[verbal glen]

Is this for math or politics

[slate turret]

What I mean is that one is more openly racist than the other, but they're both racist

[slate turret]

Read the channel description

[soft aspen]

Um?

[verbal glen]

Oh I see

[soft aspen]

He’s sayibg black people vote democrat so if you vote for trump (the wrong choice) or cannot decide you cannot be black

Historically black people have majority voted for democrats

You have to understand the context but yes I mean that’s what it means no?

[burnt ledge]

That is silly and rude at best especially to say directly to a black person

[grizzled crypt]

yeah defending this take aint it

[soft aspen]

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/04/09/partisanship-by-race-ethnicity-and-education/

What are yall on about lmao

😭 I’m dying

[burnt ledge]

Biden telling a black person to his face (in the interview) that if you even think about not voting for him (Biden) then you're not black, is crazy and extremely rude and very possibly racist

[slate turret]

If we give the comment the benefit of the doubt, sure, I can see how that is the case. It's not as damning as Trump's comments, but it still implies that you are lesser as a black person (not black) by not voting democrat.

[soft aspen]

He didn’t say the context he just gave me the quote, that is a weird thing to say tho but I don’t think it was racist

[manic wraith]

Trump is better than Biden ❤️

[soft aspen]

I mean in a society who hates on black Americans I don’t think the insults are a bad thing 😭it’s just like shitting in the people with egos

[slate turret]

My bad, I didn't keep up with Biden politics very much so I didn't know the full context.
I really did just grab a random quote to make my point

[soft aspen]

It’s ok the person just thought I knew the context tho 😭 but I still don’t think that is racist lol

Yall had a lot to say abt being racist and supporting trump more lmao

[soft aspen]

Good thing Biden won ❤️

[manic wraith]

Won by cheating

What a win

[soft aspen]

Do not spread false information

I know you’re angry because your daddy didn’t get into office but you can’t spread false information, you’re better than that

[grizzled crypt]

I wonder who would be president now if Trump served his second term already

[soft aspen]

So true

[manic wraith]

He’ll probably run for 3rd term

[burnt ledge]

Lowkey though on a real, Trump did kinda win the election

[soft aspen]

Do you even live in the us?

[manic wraith]

No

[slate turret]

Breaking: Dog Shit is better than rotting Dog Shit

[soft aspen]

Ok so please exist the conversation

[grizzled crypt]

I meant if he served 2020-2024... maybe I typed that wrong lol

[manic wraith]

Bro I can always move in us in the future so I can have a say

[faint light]

?!

[burnt ledge]

Im genuinely laughing so much

[soft aspen]

No you don’t even know our government system nor the laws that presidents have to abide by “he’ll run for a third term” so please leave, you aren’t apart of the voter base anyways

[soft aspen]

You heard me

[manic wraith]

I’ve learned about US politics, stop being a liar

[soft aspen]

In 1000 ad

[faint light]

he did get into office, more times than biden in fact

[grizzled crypt]

maybe we need to implement that testing idea for #serious-discussion

[burnt ledge]

If there is anything for a Trump supporter to be angry about, "Trump didn't get into office" is NOT one of them 😭

[soft aspen]

They have to be trolling tho right

More like trump put us in war

[slate turret]

There is no part of the constitution that allows for a 3rd term. There would have to be some election interference or some brazen reinterpretation of the 22nd amendment to make it happen

or a revolution

[soft aspen]

Wow soooo cool ✨ig you want the economy to go to shit again, oh wait it already has

[soft aspen]

That’s why I said they should exist 😭

@slate turret where in the spectrum do you fall?

[manic wraith]

Vance will be president and trump vice president, then Vance will resign and Trump will become a president

[slate turret]

I'll be honest. I actually don't know. I'm still exploring that.

[soft aspen]

Interesting

[slate turret]

That could technically happen, but I think that Trump would be too prideful to do that

[soft aspen]

Then why only follow trumps side of the election?

[soft aspen]

It seems like a loophole but many debate if it could actually happen, I’m guessing if it were the Supreme Court would get involved but

[manic wraith]

Or he can just change 22nd amendment

[soft aspen]

It also says in the 12th amendment that a former 2 term serving president wouldn’t be able to run for office as vice president

[soft aspen]

That requires the Supreme Court buddy

[faint light]

12th amendment bars this

[soft aspen]

You’re not from the us or obviously know anything about our government system please leave

[slate turret]

Thank you, I think I need to take my own civics exam lol

[soft aspen]

I would not even try to comment on Britain or whatever country you’re from this seems very egotistical and naive

[manic wraith]

No? That’s something different

[dreamy crag]

No it does

[soft aspen]

Smh get out

[dreamy crag]

Please read it

[slate turret]

Read the last sentence of the 12th amendment

[soft aspen]

They have to be trolling

[manic wraith]

ELLA JUST STOP IT

you’re so annoying

[fallen mango]

💀

[slate turret]

NPC behavior

[fallen mango]

yall need to discuss more politely

[sharp sage]

do i call mods

[soft aspen]

And you’re so wrong it’s incredible

[soft aspen]

No fr

[sharp sage]

<@&268886789983436800> the conversation is getting a bit out of hand rn

[soft aspen]

Smh

[soft aspen]

.

[slate turret]

Yeah, it kind of devolved 15 min ago

[silent junco]

@manic wraith @soft aspen be civil or block each other and drop it. final warning

[soft aspen]

Bet

[fallen mango]

there were other warnings?

[soft aspen]

No

[slate turret]

First and final

[soft aspen]

They love power here

[fallen mango]

😭

[soft aspen]

Anyone?

[fallen mango]

is that trump or the others

[soft aspen]

😭 what

[fallen mango]

😋

[soft aspen]

Not this again hold me back @slate turret

[burnt ledge]

democrats are the other guys, theyre nominally trump's opposition

[fallen mango]

good to know

[slate turret]

I'm good lol

[soft aspen]

True friends in think but not in thin

[faint light]

no they haven’t

[soft aspen]

?

Um…. Hm?

[faint light]

they won a referendum for redrawing the district boundaries in Virginia

[soft aspen]

Which is predicted to with them seats

[faint light]

yeah

[soft aspen]

Just like Georgia but without the redistricting I’m pretty sure

[faint light]

anyways i think its good 👍

[soft aspen]

Yes

[soft aspen]

Do you not have an adverse opinion to this?

[burnt ledge]

to what? Virginian redistricting?

[soft aspen]

Yes

[burnt ledge]

not really its just funny to me on a more general level that america basically completely accepts gerrymandering as part of the political process

[manic wraith]

I’m sorry but people on this server are difficult

[soft aspen]

So sad it’s almost like a robot should do it

[slate turret]

Like an AI overlord of some sort?

[soft aspen]

Like an algorithm just so there is literally no way it’s biased

[muted yarrow]

bac

[soft aspen]

Like don’t even give it any political data just tell it to draw lines with about equal population densities per district

[muted yarrow]

either way it is a real thing and is just my example of the fact that no test can be reliable to test if someone is a good person overall

[burnt ledge]

Even something like this can be gerrymandered btw, alphaphenoix has a good video about this

[soft aspen]

How?

[burnt ledge]

I think it was alphaphoenix at least

[soft aspen]

They’re just random lines no?

[dreamy crag]

You would think

[muted yarrow]

with the example of your "competence needed" to vote, state being able to control who even is to become competent is also something (education)

not my example i forgor who said it

[dreamy crag]

But there are ways to Jerrymander equal distribution regions

[soft aspen]

I said ability to critically think I’ve moved on from wanting to talk about this please don’t engage me in it

[muted yarrow]

what is gerrymandering

[soft aspen]

What does that include?

[muted yarrow]

ok damn.

[dreamy crag]

Wdym?

[slate turret]

I'll link the mentioned video on Gerrymandering here: https://youtu.be/Lq-Y7crQo44

[dreamy crag]

I mean the obvious one is packing and the thing that’s the opposite of packing that I forgot the name of

[soft aspen]

Like how could someone gerrymander random lines? The point is to draw lines to get more votes for your party

If it’s algorithmic how could that happen

[muted yarrow]

i mean this is also what i mentioned but i guess its not the topic but me :(

[soft aspen]

Not sure what “competence” has to do with gerrymandering but alright

[burnt ledge]

manipulating district boundaries based on how people vote so as to effect a bias in the voting outcomes

[muted yarrow]

nvm this is just a mish mash of different things being muddled up with eachother

i forgot what i was talking about tbh

[soft aspen]

@dreamy crag

[muted yarrow]

oh. that is actually very descriptive

[soft aspen]

Yup a very descriptive word for a very specific process

[slate turret]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redistricting
Relevant link

[dreamy crag]

Well if by lines you mean curves, and you can somehow account for different living conditions of different political groups, then sure

Problem is that’s basically impossible

And most compromises will allow for some jerrymandering

[soft aspen]

If you programmed an algorithm to make lines specifically only based on equal numbers of the population within each district would gerrymandering still happen?

[dreamy crag]

Depends on how you make the random sampling, but in general, it could avoid jerrymandering, and definitely would be more fair

However, it’s a useful political tool, so it’s not gonna get changed any time soon

[burnt ledge]

the problem is that districting only by equal population is highly underdetermined

[soft aspen]

You wouldn’t feed it any political, racial, religious, gender, nacionality, ethnicity literally any other data than population density within square miles

[storm sage]

Screw it no more local representation

[soft aspen]

Why does that mean

[storm sage]

Only federal elections

[dreamy crag]

It would because diferent political groups have diferent defiantly

I don’t have the exact numbers, but something something red lining

[sharp mulch]

There are many ways of dividing up a map into regions of equal population

[burnt ledge]

it means theres lots of ways to pick equal pop. districts. there are other considerations to be made that makes one redistricting better than another

[sharp mulch]

And you would still have to choose between one of the many different options

[soft aspen]

Why does that matter tho if there are equal population numbers? It would just balance out overall since it’s not based on anything

[dreamy crag]

Well it could potentially put let’s say all black voters in one district, and despite them let’s say being 62 percent of the population, only account for 40 percent of the vote

Completely hypotheticaly of course

[soft aspen]

That’s why it’s bass in population density and number of people within the district

[dreamy crag]

This is doing that

[soft aspen]

If they all lived very close by there would be many districts close together

[dreamy crag]

It’s hard to explain without specific numbers, but this can be done

[soft aspen]

I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m saying

[dreamy crag]

I most certainly am

[soft aspen]

Then how would they count for less if they districting is random and there are equal numbers within each?

[dreamy crag]

But if you do not feel like I am listening to you, I will simply stop having this conversation as it is really annoying

[burnt ledge]

for example the point of districting at all is so that different localities can be represented. but then this depends on where the people feel they want fo be represented. people might be upset if they live in (im mkaing this up) Brooklyn and the district lines groups them with Manhattan. so in a sense to do districting you have to have some information about what areas "should be" together and your boundaries should ideally respect that

[soft aspen]

I would expect that to be apart of the algorithm

[burnt ledge]

if you care about absolutely nothing except having equal populations in each district then there is a very easy way to do that. your whole state can be one district

[soft aspen]

Although that is nice it does ruin the locality of the perosn in office they might no longer be from the same background as you

[burnt ledge]

and as soon as you start caring about other things such as what areas people affiliate with, you are including politics into the mix

[sharp mulch]

Me when I split the continental US up into 430 vertical strips

[soft aspen]

Making districts not long rectangles or whatever would solve the problem tho without this anyways

Like rounded squares or something

[dreamy crag]

You overpack the people you want to have less of the vote into smaller more dence areas then give who you want to win a slight majority in larger more space areas

[soft aspen]

Yes I understand but what I said is do it based on population number so the people who are in a denser area have more districts within a few mile range than those who don’t becuase this population is the same number for a larger amount of miles

[burnt ledge]

Youve said this like five times now Ella

[soft aspen]

Then why don’t they get it

[dreamy crag]

It matters about percent population, because first past the post is garbage

[burnt ledge]

Shes talking about something else

[soft aspen]

Population of 110k people per district in a city will have a smaller square mile range than that of a rural area with 110k people

[dreamy crag]

You can Jerrymander equal population or even equal population density maps with enough racism math

[soft aspen]

How is randomness racism?

[dreamy crag]

I’m saying you can use pseudo randomness to induce jerrymandered maps

[soft aspen]

Then she can respond to what I’m saying I don’t even know what their point is

[dreamy crag]

My point is that depending on the randomness of the program, you can still get jerrymandered maps

[burnt ledge]

Bottom line is, there are good reasons why there cannot be "objective" redisricting algorithms

[soft aspen]

Yes it’s possible

[dreamy crag]

Even if they are equal population dencity

[dreamy crag]

It’s just really really really hard

Much harder than you are assuming

[soft aspen]

I’m saying this is possible

[dreamy crag]

So you agree with me?

[soft aspen]

How is it pseudo randomness tho?

[dreamy crag]

How are you getting your random lines?

[soft aspen]

I think it could happen like it is random but I think it’s unlikely

[dreamy crag]

(And by lines I assume you mean curves)

[soft aspen]

They could be curves they could not be