serious-discussion

[zealous garden]

My world view is pretty fatalistic, but I'm shocked by how much people seem to be latching onto the idea of "suffering" and not "justice" or "protection"

[weak shadow]

he kills other serial killers

[neat lintel]

and that

[dreamy crag]

and id say that revenge is not logical in this senario and basicing your belifes off that is not very smart

[weak shadow]

no he kills other serial killers and RARELY the pedo

[zealous garden]

I'm all for violence and violent punishment if it fits, for the record.

[silent junco]

eh i think this is reductive. i think there are certainly people like this, e.g. the primary audience of those "we tracked down a predator online and did some stuff to him" videos, but i dont think its that simple for everyone.

[neat lintel]

oh well i never watched the full show but we digress

[weak shadow]

agreed

[old oak]

Dexter was a protagonist of an eponymous TV show, basically he was a serial killer who reconciled with his urges by directing them at other serial killers, while working undercover at a police departament which helped him avoid getting caught

[zealous garden]

No, he kills criminals.

[dreamy crag]

so a revenge fanticy

[craggy flame]

ok maybe i just want to be violent on them bc of personal experiences but i dont get why we should have mercy on them when they didnt have mercy when they commited the crime

[zealous garden]

It's not pedos, it's not serial killers, it's just criminals.

[dreamy crag]

yeah that doesnt sound fun to watch, like at all

[weak shadow]

it was like his whole thing that he only killed those who killed for at least like the first 2 or so seasons

[zealous garden]

No, it's a vigilante fantasy mixed with crime drama

[weak shadow]

its a very good drama

[zealous garden]

Killing ≠ serial killer

[dreamy crag]

still sounds not fun

[neat lintel]

who cares tbf

[zealous garden]

It starts off good, same seasonal rot as any other show

[weak shadow]

especially in the 2020 continuation

[dreamy crag]

no show longer than 5 seasons is good

and 5 is pushing it

[old oak]

Seinfeld was mostly good throughout

[versed frost]

I recommend watching

[zealous garden]

Don't tell One Piece fans this

[weak shadow]

better call saul

[neat lintel]

ouch man

[dreamy crag]

techicaly its only 2

[craggy flame]

i feel like its always the first 3 seasons that are good and then it goes downhill

[weak shadow]

except for breaking bad

[neat lintel]

serious discussions are underway

[shadow palm]

Hello serious nerds

[dreamy crag]

fuck wait

[magic python]

Good thing TOH got cut then

[craggy flame]

yea

actually rick and morty was good until like season 4

actually no

[old oak]

Honestly in the mathcord I will take discussion of relative merits of TV series over discussion of relative merits of carceral approaches towards paedophilia

[weak shadow]

peaky blinders

[dreamy crag]

Vince Gilligan is the only exception i think

[craggy flame]

season 3 was its peak i feel like a lot of shows peak in season 3

[neat lintel]

yeah fair enough

[craggy flame]

like stranger things

[weak shadow]

the x files

[worthy shell]

what

[craggy flame]

and the next step

[weak shadow]

dr who

[worthy shell]

channel changed?

[neat lintel]

I tried to get into stranger things but it’s just so…

[craggy flame]

but thats niche

[weak shadow]

the simpsons were good for the first 12 seasons

[craggy flame]

it literally so good

why is the timer so long

[neat lintel]

It is very cringe

[craggy flame]

only season 4 and 5 wereee

[silent junco]

yeah stranger things is kinda ass, especially s2 onwards

[weak shadow]

for a show to fall off past season 2 is outstandingly bad

[craggy flame]

yeah

[dreamy crag]

this is why the best show ever is only one season :3

[neat lintel]

I like the cast they seem to have chemistry and don’t look like a generic group but there’s just something about the show it’s just not interesting

[craggy flame]

i feel like they lost the supernatural aspect by having a human villain at the center of the plotline

[dreamy crag]

i have so much tadc autism its actualy crazy

[weak shadow]

smiling friends proves some need more

[craggy flame]

thats why it fell of so bad and also too many characters and side quests

[weak shadow]

smiling friends shouldve gone for 6 seasons 💔

[magic python]

What about after episode 9 comes out

[dreamy crag]

if ANYTHING happens to ragatha im gonna kill someone

[magic python]

I'd be a willing sacrifice for that girl

[shadow palm]

Hello serious nerds. What are we talking about?

[weak shadow]

I'd be willing to sacrifice that girl

[dreamy crag]

noooo ur awsome and i love u, ill do like, someone from my school

[magic python]

Wait ragatha is the doll right

[old oak]

Also Taskmaster is on its 21st series and still going very strong, but that's not a scripted series

[weak shadow]

yes

[dreamy crag]

mhm!!!

[old oak]

Peep Show had 9 series and was mostly strong throughout

[magic python]

Alright I'm ready to be sacrificed then ig

[craggy flame]

OMG I LOVE TASKMASTER

[delicate mulch]

jfc it is? surely they've run out of british comedians by now, no?

[magic python]

Nah you are awesomer

[neat lintel]

I cannot name one british comedian

[craggy flame]

tbh its meant to be celebrities and usually u dont know who they are but they r usually entertaining

[old oak]

Nope, the pool is fairly deep in Britain (although they've also had some americans recently)

[delicate mulch]

a shame, british comedy is pretty good

[magic python]

You basically saved me by introducing me to CGT

[weak shadow]

i deem the international food of autism, pizza

[shadow palm]

@weak shadow
Welcome to Mathcord, new nerd. Hope you are having a good day and enjoy your stay :)

[old oak]

The current Taskmaster series has Armando Iannuci

[magic python]

I have something to do

[dreamy crag]

ok maaaaybe but but ur cool too!!

[neat lintel]

what would the jokes even be about

[old oak]

I was going to make some kind of oblique paedophilia reference by way of The Thick of It and Chris Langham, but I will resist

[craggy flame]

its often one actually famous person and then 4 unknowns 😭

[weak shadow]

just let the topic die out

[magic python]

Guess I need to be heated like a switch then.

Get me to 0

[old oak]

Honestly some of the people on Taskmaster I had no idea who they were, I enjoyed a lot.

[craggy flame]

yeah i think its also because the hosts are really good

[old oak]

The contestants are also very good

[delicate mulch]

watch uhhhh Blackadder if you want a sitcom or Taskmaster for a good intro to the panel show format. (I would recommend 8 out of 10 cats does countdown, but maybe not having the countdown background makes it a bit rough.)

[magic python]

Wait no heating and cooling doesn't bring it closer to 0 I think

[delicate mulch]

oh QI is also a good panel show

[magic python]

[dreamy crag]

cooling kinda does in a way

[craggy flame]

would i lie to you is quite funny also

[neat lintel]

I’ll check it out maybe

[old oak]

It is, and consistently hosted by LGBT comedians

[craggy flame]

my parents love have i got news for you but i hate it

[magic python]

Wait heating isn't going up to 0 because switches are on both sides omg

[dreamy crag]

heating makes it a larger range, cooling does the oposite

[craggy flame]

probs coz i cant vote yet

[magic python]

I need to get my hands on WW

[delicate mulch]

I coincidentally sorta stopped watching TV in general around the time or shortly before Stephen Fry's departure

[magic python]

Wait it's range based??? That sounds interesting

[dreamy crag]

kinda?

[magic python]

Wish there were videos on temperature

[neat lintel]

oh fucking hell there’s a two inch spider on my ceiling

[old oak]

I'd been a Sandi Toksvig fan previously so I was very happy for her to become the host

[craggy flame]

Is it cute

[delicate mulch]

My evil british comedy suggestion is The Mighty Boosh

[craggy flame]

i love spiders

[weak shadow]

the first thing after I did after writing my corrections research essay was boot up prison architect 💔

[neat lintel]

it won’t be after i drop it out the window

[delicate mulch]

god I should rewatch this

[craggy flame]

Dont hurt it he cant help that hes a spider

[odd narwhal]

That sounds Quite Interesting

[weak shadow]

rainworld will ruin your love of spiders forever

[craggy flame]

He does what he has to do to survive and he thought your ceiling was a safe place

[odd narwhal]

Y'all should watch a bit of Fry & Laurie and also Fawlty Towers

[neat lintel]

I like to eat freely in my room without worrying a spider will fall in my meal

[craggy flame]

whats that

[odd narwhal]

Fawlty towers is pretty brilliant old fashioned british humour

[craggy flame]

just tell him to chill

[old oak]

My guilty pleasure is 'Allo 'Allo

[neat lintel]

natural selection or something

[old oak]

It really hasn't aged well, but I can't let go of the nostalgia

[delicate mulch]

somehow I have never watched Fry & Laurie I should watch it

[neat lintel]

brb

[old oak]

You should! It's deeply uneven but the highs are quite high

[weak shadow]

its a game where u play as a slugkitty and try to survive in the ruins of a destroyed world

[odd narwhal]

It might be a bit disorienting to see Dr. House so animated in that case

[delicate mulch]

I do love Fawly Towers though, haven't seen that since I was a kid

[craggy flame]

And the kitty gets eaten by spiders

[odd narwhal]

I have a lot of shows like that

[delicate mulch]

why is Dr. House speaking like that... where's his american accent? mom I'm scared

[neat lintel]

spider has been dealt with

[weak shadow]

the kitty gets eaten by everything, including the darkness

[old oak]

Having seen Blackadder first, I had the analogous but opposite reaction to House; i.e. "why is George speaking with an American accent?!"

[craggy flame]

oh no

[delicate mulch]

I guess the quintessential british comedy is Monty Python, that's probably worth pointing out and probably most American's awareness of British comedy

[odd narwhal]

I keep coming back to "Your Name?"

Privatised police force is also great

I should watch Jeeves and Wooster

The sleeper agent one as well

[weak shadow]

a normal playthrough done blind, you can die over 150 times

[craggy flame]

My dad always makes me watch that

[weak shadow]

thats if you run away, if you fight its like 300 times

[craggy flame]

Whats your record of least deaths

[delicate mulch]

On a related note, I'm kinda impressed dropout has done so well. I guess the synthesis of british style comedy with american nerd culture is an effective one.

[weak shadow]

210

when u die u reset to a save

[dreamy crag]

what game?

[weak shadow]

rainworld

[dreamy crag]

oh nice!

great game

[odd narwhal]

They're being carried by the dnd studf

But game changer and co have gotten very popular as well

I love whenever they branch out and try smth new, crowd control is fun

[delicate mulch]

Game changer is like... the perfect flagship

[pulsar scarab]

yo quick question do all vectors touch (0,0)

[delicate mulch]

it's both a good show in it's own right, and like good at testing the waters for various show concepts

I also get the sense that Sam Reich has a strong vision for the company and the knowledge of how to hold something like that together under the modern internet.

Doing stuff like encouraging people to account share was a clever move, because you know you can't really stop it, so you might as well use it to build a more loyal base.

[timber pelican]

hi

What do you think about the critical period in a person’s mathematical development? If we have someone who is, say, 24 or older and has had no exposure to mathematics beyond basic addition and subtraction, can that person still achieve a high level of proficiency in mathematics? Is there a certain age limit beyond which a person is automatically ruled out in mathematics, and further efforts are pointless?

[slow pier]

I think somebody at any age can become proficient in math given time and intrinsic motivation.

[weak shadow]

motivation is key

[timber pelican]

The question is: are motivation and hard work alone enough?

[slow pier]

I guess

[dense ravine]

Well proficiency vs innovation are very different things

[slow pier]

As a person gets older, sure they are at a greater disadvantage "statistically" than a young lad and most nobels have been won at a young age (~25 to 30 i think)

[timber pelican]

Yes, but can both be achieved in old age without any exposure to proper mathematics?

[dense ravine]

Proficiency probably, innovation, questionably

[timber pelican]

Well, the question is whether an older person can compete with a younger one, assuming that the older person is competing at the same level as the younger one

[slow pier]

I would say its tough but possible

[slim flax]

sorry, I was just testing and I don't really see anyone on here so if you come on here to see a bunch of stuff, sorry

[brave flare]

hi so #latex-testing

[slim flax]

oh dang, that exists?

thanks

[glass peak]

I got in because of the DnD (despite not being a DnD fan prior) but it’s game changer that’s kept me

I would pay £50 a year for game changer alone, but make some noise and d20 are massive added bonuses

[odd narwhal]

I really like the cooking show

[glass peak]

I’ve not really given anything else much of a fair shot. I don’t like the improv one with vic (blanking on the name rn), and I enjoy some dirty laundry but it’s not my go to

Haven’t watched any of the cooking show though

[odd narwhal]

Very important people

You should (the cooking show)

VIP has some good episodes

[glass peak]

Nothing I’ve seen of VIP has really spoken to me tbh

[turbid ocean]

I don't know of any real example but I'd like to believe it is possible if they are willing enough

What I said is subject to what you mean by "high level of proficiency". They probably can't become a leading expert in whatever field they would like to pursue but I believe that if they really worked and were lucky enough they might be able to get a phd

[teal lion]

i personally wish we didn’t have an animation at all, and a simpler, more minimalist torus icon

a sharp still white torus on black background looks prettier to me than the ever-so-slightly saturated colors we see now

physcord, loathe i am to say it, has better graphic design than us

[stark trench]

Hmm.

Yeah, I would say so. I think they're a substantial meownority. If anyone'd like to offer a better term to use, they're free to do so.

Yeah, and also children are very frequently the offenders.

Which, once you realize that society systematically undermines the autonomy and self-ownership of children, it is not surprising that children, in general, are often victims and victimizers of sexual abuse.

And it's like, the whole conception people have of rape and child sexual abuse is just outrageous. They always imagine it's some random stranger when this is pretty rare. As you guys pointed out, it's almost always a family member or friend, and this reduces reporting to the state and thus intervention by the state (which may be desirable or undesirable depending on your view) and/or community intervention, alongside the perpetrator frequently being a child. People just assume if it's a child engaging in sexual behavior another child it'll be perfectly okay, and this dramatically curtails any attempt at preventing child sexual abuse, and they also do nothing to prevent abuse in cases where the abuser is a family member ("stranger danger.")

[sick parrot]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/342850939306246145/1490147099197706481/mhtt1sb.gif

[silent junco]

yep

[stark trench]

I think for a lot of people the idea of a big bad Other is just much more tolerable than accepting the discomfort involved with confronting sexual abuse in their local communities and families.

[true zinc]

One thing I will say, as a good amount of my abusers were children, are that I frankly don't care much whether the perpetrator is a child nor an adult because in the end the outcome is the same, someone is being severely harmed by this. I also really don't understand why people think it's some random stranger, to me it's always seemed somewhat obvious that the ones who would engage in such behaviours are people with a good amount of access to the victim

[teal lion]

i like physcord, agda cube, mathcord, alg geo/nomnom theory

i feel maybe putting some properties of the torus there, perhaps to emphasize the different parts of mathematics

borcherds has the sphere-cylinder archimedes diagram

as it stands it kind of looks like a butthole to me when you add whatever the surface in the middle is

and i’ve been quietly keeping that to myself

[open nimbus]

this server?

i dont see it

[umbral ocean]

Damn. We are being ruled by the butthole mafia

[shadow palm]

Wrong channel, fuck

[sharp sage]

what is the most effective fallacy to use in an argument

[stoic tusk]

to not argue

[delicate mulch]

I think pulling out a weapon could work

[stoic tusk]

apart from the american way*

[sharp sage]

[delicate mulch]

refute this you filthy casual

[stoic tusk]

D:

[patent yacht]

Les go I'm back after a 24hr parole

[cerulean crypt]

A10 warthog

[sharp sage]

Relavistic kill object

[cerulean crypt]

Blackhole

[sharp sage]

Om nom nom

[idle steppe]

Bro sees a spectrum of colors and is immediately terrified of it

[cerulean crypt]

Bro sees the spectrum of visible light and his timbers are shivered

[cerulean crypt]

Uhm I dont think thats a legal move?

[idle steppe]

Genuinely what are u scared of

Also its absolutely not thrown in your face i took like months to realise it had that

[sharp sage]

Holy necropost

[dry current]

?serverinfo

[calm fulcrum]

#bots

[flint fog]

Mosquito vs ant, who would win

[dry current]

ant

[flint fog]

Mosquito if they use their brain

[dry current]

how

[flint fog]

Btw why is ur name abdulnath tiwari

[dry current]

thats my real name

[flint fog]

That can't be true

[dry current]

why

[flint fog]

Because it's muslim + hindu name

[dry current]

yea

my family is secular

[flint fog]

Oh

[dry current]

i am christian actually

[flint fog]

Catholic or Protestant?

[dry current]

protestant

[flint fog]

Are you from India

[dry current]

yes

[flint fog]

I'm also from india

[dry current]

ok

[umbral ocean]

What kind of religious abomination is this?

[sharp sage]

Please dont disrespect other peoples religions.

[vernal silo]

I love my daily dose of serious discussions

[umbral ocean]

I mean it's literally "religions". Why is he mixing two religions with his name? 😭

[vernal silo]

What?

[stone meadow]

new channel o_o

what is this one for now?

[vernal silo]

Discussy 2 renamed

Not a new channel

[stone meadow]

why is it called serious

[vernal silo]

As it says, it's for serious discussions (politics, religion, philosophy, etc.)

To not bloat the more lighthearted disucssion

[stone meadow]

Politics and seriousness? I mean politicians lie why would we be serious

[vernal silo]

Discussions on politics tend to be polarizing

[stone meadow]

whatever., so nothing about math here huh? ^^

[vernal silo]

Nope, that's #math-discussion

[stone meadow]

oh... we have a lot of channels

[fallen mango]

is this a new channel?

discussion 2 was wholesome ngl, sad to see it go

politics ruin everything

[patent yacht]

Yeah I think bcuz there was a lot PPL talking serious stuff in the discussion that's why they change it

[patent yacht]

Yeah

Lance I've learned

[thorn wren]

Well the idea is we can redirect extended conversations about politics into here, and you shouldn't be looking to start politics convos in discussion

[fallen mango]

yeah im all for that, just sad discussion 2 has been deleted

[patent yacht]

What abt religious

[thorn wren]

likewise for those as well

[fallen mango]

read the pinned message

[patent yacht]

I should read the rule again

[thorn wren]

I guess a good way to phrase this is "politics/religious convos are now generally off topic for #discussion, but our general off topic policy is to only redirect extended off topic conversations"

[fallen mango]

can i have the role "kindergarten math" thats hilarious

[delicate mulch]

everything is political

[thorn wren]

no I just made this role to ragebait someone with the postgrad math role

[fallen mango]

well it was very amusing so thank you for making it

[delicate mulch]

sorry, who do you think paid for the air you're breathing? that's right. THE TAXPAYER you dirty welfare queen.

[patent yacht]

Heh

What are y'all debating

[delicate mulch]

what

[wet mortar]

facts my brother

[void meadow]

more for war than air

[delicate mulch]

I love paying my government to breath in the vaporized remains of children!

[void meadow]

that's the innovation of capitalism

[delicate mulch]

god BLESS 🏈 🦅 🇺🇸 🌭🔥 🔥 🦅

yes

[void meadow]

land of the free

[delicate mulch]

well not in my life anymore

[thorn wren]

https://tenor.com/view/obi-wan-well-of-course-i-know-him-hes-me-kenobi-star-wars-gif-21401108

[void meadow]

Real patriotism is low-key bottom 5 intellectual habits

[delicate mulch]

Lol, I used to believe this, but as I've grown I've realized like a measured patriotism is fine? Like one can hold a national identity and even be proud of aspects of your national identity. But good patriotism involves rejecting people who would try to manipulate patriotism into nationalist fervor.

In the long term I still think we're better off ridding ourselves of at least the nation-state, and I'm not entirely sure what is left for the concept of a nation afterwards. But like with the understanding that a nation is something we have for the time being, I think patriotism can be good.

[subtle magnet]

Nah tied for bottom with religious fundamentalism.

[subtle magnet]

What is there to be proud of about in mere chance? There is no such thing as a national identity imho besides documentation. Just a cultural one. Nothing to be proud of there too. You're born and raised into said culture as a matter of pure chance.

Pride is a very personal thing. It should be associated to a person's accomplishments. Even surviving alone can be a matter of pride. But pride over probability is just the damnest thing I've ever heard of lol.

You can consider yourself to be lucky and privileged if you were born into better conditions than some others. Often times, that may even depend on the borders and cultures. But that is not pride.

[timid zenith]

Why are mods just allowed to do this someonr stop them

[subtle magnet]

The concept of a nation, much like that of religion is "just metastasizing mind worms, meant to divide us so it's easier to rule us by the charlatans that wanna run us."

Was hacked for a few hours.

[delicate mulch]

I see, I can unban you I think

lol sorry I thought your account was a bot so I was confused, mb

[subtle magnet]

I must have clicked some phishing link while using my phone with damp hands. Didn't have 2FA turned on then. Fixed it tho. It happened on several servers

[sharp sage]

must have been the wind.

[subtle magnet]

That would be great if you could tbf. I did write to them but I imagine they get multiple mails.

[rocky shuttle]

<@&268886789983436800> spam in multiple channels

[thorn wren]

they never existed

[delicate mulch]

ah and yet in referring to them you are calling them into our minds, granting them existance anew

[thorn wren]

someone is volunteering to become an unperson

[delicate mulch]

erm I'm actually volunteering to help my local community

sorry pal, my death will be revolutionary, not reactionary

[turbid ocean]

Here we see a so called "serious discussion" taking place

[umbral ocean]

So, I wanted to ask, does anyone have experience in modelling organisations as Networks?

I wanted to quantify collaboration that happens in the finance department of an organisation. Also, the role-criticality. So, I hypothesize that we should model it as a network.

[sharp sage]

who is "they"?

[flat karma]

do you want to become they

[delicate mulch]

My last message was genuine

[timber pelican]

When I say "high level of proficiency," I mean a level comparable to a master's degree in mathematics—let's be realistic. Someone who started learning mathematics from scratch at age 25 or 30 will never earn a Ph.D., Generally, my question revolves around how intelligence works and whether an average or unintelligent person is capable of reaching an above-average level of intelligence in middle age—I’m not talking about memory, but rather the speed and complexity of the tasks this person performs, cause-and-effect thinking, and so on.

Another thing: relying on faith is foolish; we should rely solely on scientific facts

[deep mango]

Logic is a model for human reasoning, as is faith

Logic is more valuable and has less societal harm baked into it in a large collection of world cultures

[vast wraith]

the logician edward nelson, who was i believe catholic, has written i think amusingly about faith and logic https://web.math.princeton.edu/~nelson/papers/faith.pdf

Perhaps the Holy Spirit had implanted in Justin what today is called “math anxiety”.

[last rose]

unless you stretch the definition of reasoning, that's not really true.. faith is better described as a foundational epistemological stance for belief or a way of knowing

[hushed rivet]

Lots of theologians use logic

[last rose]

sure I mean saying faith is not a model for reasoning doesn't mean religious thinkers don't reason

[hushed rivet]

I was agreeing with you, they mostly use faith as a basis for their subsequent reasonings

[last rose]

mhm

[vast wraith]

nelson himself briefly pursued the fourth option here and at one point claimed he had proved PA inconsistent, but someone pointed out a flaw in his proof and he retracted the claim

[last rose]

one could say theology is the act of applying logic to the foundations of faith

[vast wraith]

i’d wager most theologians would disagree with that

[hushed rivet]

Well systematic theology uses logic, but mystic theology doesn't really

[vast wraith]

wait i misread he says not inconsistent instead of not consistent, guh, i’m not sure if that’s a typo or if he did mean that, i guess if he did mean as written then it makes much more sense that this is in an essay about faith

i guess he probably did mean as written, the note is to his book on predicative arithmetic

[last rose]

apophatic theology is basically an inverted kind of logic

irrc mystics reason that if the divine is truly infinite and transcendent, then human language is too small to contain it.. therefore, any positive statement is technically a limitation which reduces the infinite to a human concept, and so they systematically strip away concepts and define the ultimate reality purely by what it is not.. one could even argue that it is a highly rigorous process of elimination

[vast wraith]

the cloud of unknowing seems like a fun read

[turbid ocean]

What

I just said that I believe it's possible with enough luck and work

[vast wraith]

For He can well be loved, but he cannot be thought. By love he can be grasped and held, but by thought, neither grasped nor held. And therefore, though it may be good at times to think specifically of the kindness and excellence of God, and though this may be a light and a part of contemplation, all the same, in the work of contemplation itself, it must be cast down and covered with a cloud of forgetting. And you must step above it stoutly but deftly, with a devout and delightful stirring of love, and struggle to pierce that darkness above you; and beat on that thick cloud of unknowing with a sharp dart of longing love, and do not give up, whatever happens.

[turbid ocean]

That doesn't mean there didn't go any logical thinking into having that belief

[sharp mulch]

I know plenty of people who started and finished phds in their 30s

[calm herald]

Is it a good idea for me to write about Auschwitz and other concentration camps for a GE class paper regarding their example as sites of non religion/ secular piligrimage?

[sharp mulch]

Do you think you can write about them in a manner that is befitting of their place in history?

[misty lark]

Non religious? Isnt the Holocaust very based on religion...?

[calm herald]

in a traditional sense of sites such as the mecca or the western wall would it not be though?

[misty lark]

It's a class in school I don't think it has to be benefitting history

[misty lark]

I'm confused about what the essay is about

[calm herald]

Im thinking of writing how memorial sites like Auschwitz where atrocities had occured before could be considered as secular piligrimage

[misty lark]

Idk a lot of Jews that go visit ausiwch often

[sharp mulch]

I wrote nothing about benefitting history

[misty lark]

And also, it is religious since Judaism is both religion and ethnicity

[calm herald]

its a GE class about the history and tradition of piligrimage

[misty lark]

Idk many non religious pilgrimage

No I know, Disney adults to Disney land

[calm herald]

other topic i had in mind is the conflicting dispute of Yasukuni Shrine

[misty lark]

Tsk tsk tsk

[rich quail]

YAY MY FAV SHOW

YEA

[lone flower]

Meh

[hidden bough]

This seems like a reasonable topic if perhaps a touchy one

[calm herald]

im currently emailing my professor regarding it

i think it wouldve made it easier if i knew how much i need to write for the final paper

since im not sure whether it could really constitute as a piligrimage site to my professor's view, if not then im doing Yasukuni Shrine since its an actual shinto site albeit a controversial one

[misty lark]

Not Disney adults? 😭

[hidden bough]

I think something like this with a little more history could make an interesting paper

Or perhaps I mean "more historical relevance" instead of "more history"

But like a museum maybe

Or some castle/palace

[calm herald]

this is an actual piligrimage history class 💀

[hidden bough]

Well what does your course take a pilgrimage to be

[calm herald]

another topic i had in mind is wriitng about the enshrinment of japanese soldiers in some taiwanese temples and with processions even done in honor of them

[hidden bough]

This doesn't really seem like it's about pilgrimages though

[near fox]

Crazy people

[patent yacht]

I'm back in

[ionic wraith]

[slow pier]

Trump is crazy

[regal spire]

Thats an understatement.

[glass peak]

[verbal quest]

did he say which country
ya never know anymore

[ionic wraith]

He was talking about Israel

[ionic wraith]

“Hey yall look at my wacky 500th market manipulation stunt!”

[neat lintel]

Peter Magyar 🗿

[charred nest]

gate

[old oak]

Hasn't he already threatened that?

[ionic wraith]

Yeah he said a whole civilization would die tn like a week ago and then announced that a ceasefire would be met

[neat lintel]

Yeah, at this point I'm realising how American centric a lot of news is. We're getting update after update about the Iran war, and all of it is just nonsense. I don't remember there being this much coverage about the Ukraine war and Gaza war, and the news certainly didn't report something contradictory every hour.

[old oak]

I recall there was quite a lot of coverage about the Ukraine war in the early stages; what I'm more disappointed at is how everyone keeps relaying Trump's latest ramblings as if they were relevant to anyone other than his handlers.

I don't need to hear what he said, he will have said something opposite tomorrow anyway

[neat lintel]

Yeah, I think it's sad that they take up so much space in the news. The news about Artemis II was literally below Trump's ramblings.

[inland notch]

SERIOUS DISCUSSION

[neat lintel]

I agree, I get most of my knowledge from YouTube, documentaries and books. I think I understand why the Iran conflict is taking place, which I wouldn't have had any clue about if I just read the news.

Yeah, primary sources are always good, cause then you can actually see what the journalists are talking about.

Well, you think at least haha. Not everyone thinks

Thinking is not something we can really quantify or give a score

[neat lintel]

He is, but let's not forget that he is also just the front man. It was not his idea to attack Iran, he just gave the green light for it. The Pentagon and his advisors present him with options and then he has to choose one to act on.

[ionic wraith]

@verbal quest surprised u think so highly of me that i would marry a rich white VC founder/partner

[verbal quest]

why did you mention that now

[ionic wraith]

Oh was watching a video from a business YouTube channel regarding VCs

[dreamy bramble]

Hello everyone

[verbal quest]

and you thought
"craig believes in me, I can reel one of these in"

[ionic wraith]

You have enough literacy skills to answer that question urself

[ionic wraith]

CHANGE UR FUCKING USERNAME

[verbal quest]

it wasn't a question😎

[true zinc]

<@&268886789983436800> username

[floral mulch]

Beat me to it

[true zinc]

Also non-serious discussion in #serious-discussion

[quick beacon]

No

[floral mulch]

How is that not against the rules?

[verbal quest]

TCC needs some chamomile tea

[quick beacon]

Because no one actually believes that this is Elon Musk's discord account, so it's not plausibly impersonation. And there's no rule against having disastrous taste in role models. Just think of it as colorful frogs. Nature's warning

[true zinc]

Alright

[floral mulch]

sure

[quick beacon]

If they start being a Nazi though, ping us.

[true zinc]

Will do

[ionic wraith]

Right

[quick beacon]

I need some chamomile tea, tbh

[verbal quest]

search "Elon" in usernames and there is one that is an obvious offense half way down

[quick beacon]

Modmail it please

[floral mulch]

tbh, naming oneself after a nazi is offensive in itself imo

especially when trying to create a safe space for queer people and other minorities

idk, I don't feel safe here rn

[quick beacon]

Not disagreeing, but here's why the mod team will autoban Hitler accounts and not Elon accounts: it is plausible that someone with an Elon account is unaware enough about this shit that it's not intentional. There is an entire industry dedicated to laundering his image. If someone is here on good faith, I don't want to ban them.

[floral mulch]

I see that, BUT you could also just very well send them a message why it's not okay and tell them to change their name

If it's bad enough to make people leave the chat and make them feel incredibly uncomfortable, then it's enough to act on it, imo

[dreamy crag]

like there could reasonably be a kid who likes elon because they are into rockets and are unaware of his antics, and i dont feel like kicking that kid away because they dont do reaserch into the people they like is the best for a server such as this

[floral mulch]

Totally fair, but at 17 they should have enough cognitive capabilities to see why it's a bad idea when they get that information

[dreamy crag]

oh theyre 17? yikes

[floral mulch]

I think?

[quick beacon]

They claim to be 17 in their profile, yes

[floral mulch]

Maybe I misread

[verbal quest]

it's gonna be a long list of names to specify if they ban that one

[sharp sage]

isnt this ageism-

[true zinc]

I feel like after so long, it should be well known to people that Elon is a bit of a shitbag, and besides that it takes 5 minutes to do even basic "research" into one's favourite celebrities. Hell, while I (manually) monitor the socials of almost everyone I have even casual interaction with online (such as watching videos, listening to music, etc...) online multiple times a day (alongside wikipedia, etc...) to make sure that they aren't secretly doing something horrible under everyone's backs that would be illegal or something, this is so much easier, just go look at wikipedia even.

[dreamy crag]

well its just that if a 14 year old doesnt know, that is a lot more excusable than a 17 year old

[dreamy crag]

you would be suprised how little people care about who they keep around them

[floral mulch]

Or just say that it's against the rules to name oneself after someone who is fascist and has enough power that they're actively erasing minorities

[floral mulch]

Age doesn't protect you from wrongdoing...

[quick beacon]

Let's tease this out and talk about it. Why, precisely, do you feel unsafe being in a chat with a guy like this? Are you afraid he will say something? Are you afraid he will record the things you say? Interactions online are fairly limited in this way.

[sharp sage]

this feels rather disturbing. (not that i swapped identity multiple times and have unlinked social media accounts for absolutely no reason)

[true zinc]

It probably should seem concerning, I tend to look for when people fuck up, no matter how small. People these days genuinely cannot be trusted, too many nice faces hiding a horrible interior

[sharp sage]

well this gives me a reason to isolate my profiles even further

[quick beacon]

Actually curious btw, not trying to shut this down

[sharp sage]

the prospect of someone that uhhh "intrusive" is rather concering to me to say the least

[quick beacon]

I want to know, to know whether or not to raise this internally as a policy that needs to be considered

[odd narwhal]

This sounds like unhealthy levels of paranoia

[verbal quest]

I wouldn't be against a rule disallowing any names that are public figures
but making a list of names seems problematic, even if it's abstracted

[sharp sage]

not that i extrapolate that because of their upbringing and social conditions that this is a defense mechanism (no offense, sorry in advance)

[floral mulch]

As a trans-woman, I have multiple years of transphobic encounters and transphobic abuse. Elon Musk is someone who is actively trying to get rid of me, as a person, because of the way that I was born. That's noticeable even here, in Germany, where I live.

When a server advertises itself as a safe-space for minorities, and explicitly says that there is no tolerance for transphobia, racism, etc, then I would expect moderators to act on that

I am scared of being harassed by people when I can't do anything against that. There are multiple ways to do that online that come to my mind immediately.

Being an "edgy teenager" isn't going to protect someone from effecting other peoply by their actions.

If there is someone whom I don't feel comfortable with being myself around them because of their hateful political views and actions (the latter one is more important), then I feel anxious, uncomfortable and just unsafe. It doesn't matter that it's online, other than I physically can't kick them out of the room.

[true zinc]

I tend to treat myself in the same way fwiw, every thing I do is assumed to be to-least somewhat public unless I am running qubes OS and tor off my flashdrive. Even something on my laptop's drives could be stolen by someone intrepid enough, if they wanted while the drives aren't at rest and encrypted. On Discord, I know that my activity is, well..actively broadcast over almost every possible channel...though maybe I am letting this control my life...a little much

[quick beacon]

Thanks

[floral mulch]

All I want in my life is to be accepted the way I am and not have fascists trying to erase or actually kill me. Naming oneself after a fascist is contributing to fascism in this world. This, among many other reasons is why so many queer people have to deal with anxiety and depression

This is also why some of my mental issues - like adhd - have been discovered when I was 20, after I have been genuinely suffering under the consequences of it being untreated.

[odd narwhal]

Thanks for the feedback, we are discussing internally and will take this into account. Just for the record, any form of harassment or bigotry from them or anyone else will result in immediate action.

[true zinc]

I do not intend this as in "I spy on other mathcorders or people I talk to online"

This is more of a "I hope that this one music artist I listen to isn't secretly a horrible person because 2 others I heard of turned out to be very horrible people when I looked them up"

[floral mulch]

Thank you

[true zinc]

and it turned out this extended much further than just that

[vocal vessel]

You should discuss faster because it's really not that hard a concept... make the child change his name or leave.

[floral mulch]

Yes, but for that you need a rule. That's the hard part

Because you will always have someone who isn't d'accord with it

[true zinc]

I do have one question, Shin, this is slightly unrelated to the existing conversation, but I feel I should ask while I still remember it. Last night there was a conversation that got out of hand in discussion and was handled by Matroid when they got to it, however in the case where no moderators are able to react in the heat of the moment, what is the right course of action? Should one just message modmail? Wait and don't engage?

[true zinc]

Also how would you properly define this boundary? /genq You can say yes don't have profile pictures/names/whatever of Donald Trump, Elon Musk, etc... but what about lesser known people who say, on the outside, are considered to be quite good but internally and within their inner circles are well known as bad and so are very polarizing and many are unaware of the person's bad deeds, or what about figures who just aren't well known or profiles which aren't explicitly nsfw but intended more as shock value?

[quick beacon]

We noted this yes

[hard oar]

I discovered something that I don't know if it had been discovered before:

If you multiply 2 numbers (one of one digit and the other of two)

For example: 11x2=22

And then you change the units of the two numbers with each other

For example: 11x2=22 is changed to 12x1=12

The multiplications will have the number of the tens of the difference multiplication.

And I tried it with other numbers to test if it always works and it gave me the same:

13x4=52 and if you change it there is 14x3=42 difference=10

15x4=60 and if you change it there is 14x5=70 difference=10

27x6=162 and if you change it it's 26x7=182 difference=20

31x2=62 and if you change it it is 32x1=32 difference=30

Something I don't understand is because here he gave me something different if in the others if it is fulfilled (I think it's because I multiply it by 5 upwards in the units and by 0):

35x9=315 and if you change it it is 39x5=195 difference=120

43x5=215 and if you change it it is 45x3=135 difference=80

41x9=369 and if you change it there is 49x1=49 difference=320

26x2=52 and if you change it it's 22x6=132 difference=80

37x4=148 and if you change it there is 34x7=238 difference=90

18x3=54 and if you change it there is 13x8=104 difference=50

10x5=50 and if you change it there is 15x0=0 difference= 50
So, is it correct yes or no?

[dreamy crag]

not the place for this

go to #math-discussion

[floral mulch]

I guess it's something like

"It is against the rules to have a username that corresponds to a person (or entity) who is openly discriminating against others, no matter what minority they belong to."

If nobody knows, that rule obiously won't have any effect. That's a risk to take

[hard oar]

Ok

[odd narwhal]

This is a good question. Messaging modmail is good for archival purposes. Beyond that, if a user is being disruptive it's best to block and ignore until a moderator can handle them, imo

[dreamy crag]

probably an obvious question, but just to make sure, if someone has said/done things in a diferent server that makes me feel that they shouldnt be in this server, i should message mod mail about that

[true zinc]

Alright thank you

[true zinc]

yes this goes to MM (at-least of the last time I asked a similar qn)

[odd narwhal]

You can dm ModMail and we'll decide whether to take action or not depending on the nature and severity of what was said/done

[floral mulch]

I would love to have an update on that when this situation is resolved

There are a lot of users named elon musk... damn..

[ionic wraith]

Hey YouTube, why is this the first fucking video result when I search up the wholesome Sesame Street Arab American heritage month video.

Chud ass weird freak

[silent junco]

we dont allow surveys here, sorry

[verbal quest]

what was you exact search term, I wanna try and see what I get

[clever snow]

dw about it thank you for letting me know tho

[dreamy crag]

wtf

[ionic wraith]

“sesame street arab american heritage month”

[verbal quest]

the second one is Newsmax

[ionic wraith]

Yeah I got similar results

Just that Chad Prather bubbled more to the top

[dreamy bramble]

I am back

[ionic wraith]

Weird ass loser

[verbal quest]

that timing

[dreamy bramble]

Ok bye everyone😪😴

[dreamy crag]

racism /j

[ionic wraith]

It does boil my boil how normalized Arab racism is

I sympathize with them because Indian racism is also super casual, even among lefty circles

[vocal vessel]

Sadly a lot of people don't see a problem with Asian racism

[ionic wraith]

Ngl the way Asians themselves talk about other Asians makes me go

[verbal quest]

they should learn how racists Asians can be, so true!

[vocal vessel]

Maybe that's the root of the issue 😅

[silent junco]

racism both among and towards asians cant really be grouped together like that

[vocal vessel]

We need to unite

[silent junco]

asia is a big place with a lot of people

[vocal vessel]

I said unite 😡

[ionic wraith]

One dimension I think of when it comes to intra-Asian racism is a degree of colorism between Far East Asians and more “darker” complexion Southeast Asians like Malay individuals

Also the colorism within India is a whole other ballgame

As much as my parents fucked up in parenting, I’m happy they never exhibited colorism and made my sister and I feel beautiful in our darker South Indian complexion

[silent junco]

theres surprisingly little research on the history of colorism

most people attribute it to colonialism and the british raj but its roots are deeper than that

[sharp sage]

Tbh ive never really cared much

[full hornet]

yeah it disgusts me how even """leftist""" people say such insensitive things about arab and south asian people

[true zinc]

Oh don't even get me STARTED on this

[glacial heart]

huh

well as a korean i can say this

here looks matter more than color; completely normal here to be discriminated because of looks

[shadow palm]

@true zinc @full hornet @silent junco
Hello and I hope you three are having a good day/night :)

[true zinc]

meowwwwww

[full hornet]

hii!

[shadow palm]

Ok, bye

[glacial heart]

dont matter if youre white black brown or yellow if you ugly youre not getting treatment

[floral mulch]

meooow

[true zinc]

meowmeowmeowwwwww

[dreamy crag]

Not the place

[sharp sage]

Which still sucks.

[tulip gulch]

Test

[ionic wraith]

https://www.asomo.co/p/the-global-money-system-in-10-pictures

[magic python]

What is even going on here

[silent junco]

hi mike, hope youre having a good day too. for future reference, this kind of thing belongs in #discussion

[woven umbra]

if you have 7 candies and a teacher takes 5 candies from you, but you were beaten by your classmates, where is your favorite toy car?

[glacial heart]

the what people are literally making cat noises

[shadow palm]

[sharp sage]

No off topic here please

[silent junco]

#chill

[magic python]

Can we not joke about abuse maybe

[woven umbra]

do u have an offtopic?

[magic python]

Yes, #chill but even there, don't fucking joke about abuse.

This is the only channel as of now where serious conversations about it can happen.

[woven umbra]

but we can do this.... double standards 🙁

[glacial heart]

last time i remember this chat used to actually be serious

[magic python]

No, it isn't.

Maybe get some eyes and read the channel description.

[woven umbra]

where can I get eyes?

[magic python]

Ask God.

[woven umbra]

which one?

[glacial heart]

this is not the frickin place to be sarcastic

get out

[magic python]

The one that gives eyes mate, also ask for a brain while your at it.

[woven umbra]

hm ok. u guys seem competent n fun cheers

[magic python]

God i can't even spell if my life depended on it today

Didn't realize T fucks up my body this much

[dreamy crag]

join the club

[sharp sage]

Use noggin

[magic python]

If only autocorrect was competent enough to get context and just fix spelling properly instead of entirely different words

[sharp sage]

Cant you configure custom words?

[magic python]

That doesn't help when it autocorrects words to words triple the length with only 1 or 2 letters in common.

Or when it just does grammatically incorrect corrections

[vocal vessel]

Mine always changes it'd to it's even when I mean it'd.

[magic python]

That's annoying as well

It doesn't correct wring things for me half the time, just right things.

OMG IT COULDNT EVEN CORRECT WRING TO WRONG

[glacial heart]

thats why i dont have autocorrect on

pure typing power at its peak

ok maybe not peak, i should get some sleep

[magic python]

Like ugh I've had it ruin some of my sentences because it changes a word of a completely unrelated one and my eyes are too busy being dumb to notice before I send it

... to. Not of.

[sharp sage]

Can someone comment on this:
I heard somewhere that a world with no disability is actually extremely dystopian, primarily because disability is definied arbitrarily and so can be virtually anything

[magic python]

[magic python]

If we removed everyone with any disability a very small population would be left if that's what you are asking.

Like even just medically classified, exclusively mental conditions, would take out a huge amount of people

[sharp sage]

I was thinking along the lines of "curing" more and not eugenics in this case

[magic python]

Even just the conditions almost everyone knows would hit a majority

[sharp sage]

However the eugenic interpretation of this is also interesting

[magic python]

Well curing kinda brings up philosophy, as in many mental disorders, there is real and permanent brain damage.

Hell, aroace I believe is thought to be caused by brain damage

[sharp sage]

Also to define cure, you need to define being healthy.

[magic python]

So you'd need to replace their entire brain

[sharp sage]

And oh boy look at the world right now

[magic python]

Which uh you could trivially say if you replace their brain, that isn't them

Also, there is the issue of disorders that change the person, as I they literally ARE NOT THE SAME as they were prior to it

[sharp sage]

Any such definition of healthy is certainly gonna include being not uhhh unstereotypical in some ways, which you know

[floral mulch]

wtf did I just read?

[magic python]

Because to make them "healthy" again, they wouldn't be themsekves

[floral mulch]

(I know the context, dw)

[magic python]

Something something I remember hearing it was mainly caused by some damages to the part of your brain responsible for attraction

[sharp sage]

Fair enough

[floral mulch]

wait, you actually believe that...?

[magic python]

Fuck no

[floral mulch]

Good xD

I was worried for a sec

[magic python]

I wouldn't call being aroace disorded in any sense of the word

[zealous garden]

The real blackpill is that every character trait is just fancy trauma and/or brain damage

[magic python]

I'd argue being trans normally is more damaged than being aroace normally is

[sharp sage]

This was the thing im thinking of

[magic python]

Indeed

[floral mulch]

Yeah, they don't exactly fuck the system

Ight, Imma head myself out already

[magic python]

True, not like you need attraction

Atleast the standard person doesn't

[sharp sage]

Ah yes like pruning off every characteristic of a person isnt dystopian

[heavy pagoda]

what does this mean

[magic python]

Atleast I don't think I do...

[magic python]

It is normally* caused by gender dysphoria, which can be VERY damaging

I don't believe aroace is associated with any bad disorders

[floral mulch]

Nono, you understand it wrong... Gender Dysphoria is caused by being born trans...

[magic python]

So being trans is damaging... yippee....

[sharp sage]

I was thinking of wait what if we smh can cure it but it just goes back to what wraith and i said

[floral mulch]

No, it's not

[magic python]

We can't

[magic python]

Okay for some it is, I keep forgetting I've deluded myself into calling mine minor

[sharp sage]

Not without brainwashing

[floral mulch]

Gender dysphoria exists because trans people typically don't get the treatment they need to be happy, thus causing dysphoria

[sharp sage]

But again this would be dystopian 😔

Wait hold up. Saying being trans is bad bcz of gender dysphoria is fallacious bcz its just appeal to consequences no?

[floral mulch]

Being trans itself is not damaging at all, and it's not being caused by having gender dysphoria

[sharp sage]

Not denying dysphoria but

[magic python]

Did I claim to be perfect?

[sharp sage]

Nope.

[magic python]

Fair ig

[sharp sage]

Wait what are we even debating

[magic python]

Then why portray me as a perfect actor, of course I fall victim to bias and fallacies.

[floral mulch]

I assume two trans people debating on an unlucky expression of one

[magic python]

I'm delusional anyway, my logic has always been flawed.

[magic python]

Idk I just exist

[ionic wraith]

I’m learning Chinese and I’m watching videos involving comprehensible input where the person is speaking without subtitles and points to various objects or actions and repeats the words so I can associate the action/object with the word without defaulting to English

[true zinc]

I would suggest not going into these sorts of spirals if you can avoid it

[magic python]

Chinese is very serious, good job.

[ionic wraith]

I need to get on board with the new hegemonic power after the U.S. shot itself in the foot for Israel

[magic python]

I mean it's more just admitting to myself because when I don't I feel empty methinks

[magic python]

Is this a good thing

[ionic wraith]

No unfortunately China is capitalist and is making moves to increase its financial institutions, which invariably shifts the economy from a real economy involving actual production of goods and services and infrastructure development to a fake speculative economy where nothing is produced and wealth is driven off of subjective hype and asset inflation.

But right now China is at a similar point to the U.S. post WW2

[magic python]

Oh so it's bad, sad.

[sharp sage]

So every capitalist superpower eventually just become finance bro heaven?

[magic python]

Well I don't think because I have little thoughts rn and I can't remember but the idea is there

[ionic wraith]

It’s bad but I feel like it’s a necessary shift to jump to.

Like the U.S. is experiencing similar to the fall of the USSR. And the fall of the USSR involved the greatest increase in mortality not seen in plague, wartime, and famine.

Leading scientists turns to taxi driving to make ends meet. Gangs controlled the country and extorted to provide resources. So many women (and underage girls) were trafficked and forced into sex work in order to survive.

This could very well happen to me and so many in the trans community where no matter how high up in tech or medicine or research you are, the fall will render you powerless

[magic python]

True that...

[turbid ocean]

is the sticker labelled "what have you tried" AI generated, and if yes, why is it a part of the collection given the larger server's stance on AI?

[sharp sage]

Another chapter in the history book.

[sharp sage]

Raise this to #『meta-discussion』 probably

[patent yacht]

Let's go

I'm done w my parole aft that self stuff

[silent junco]

i dont like it either tbh but the sticker choices dont really go through any kind of process

[patent yacht]

What are talking abt

[silent junco]

also i dont think the server has any official stance on ai at broad

just "dont use ai to 'help' people"

[patent yacht]

Wait let me scroll and find the context

[sharp sage]

Whatever we are talking about.

[stark trench]

It's not caused by being born trans. Everyone experiences gender dysphoria, even cis people.

[stark trench]

It's caused by being born in a society where gender exists.

[patent yacht]

Wait did I do something

[sharp sage]

Can you please elaborate?

[floral mulch]

Fair point, didn't think about that
Thanks

[sharp sage]

Nope.

[patent yacht]

Ok

[patent yacht]

Are ya talking abt intersex ppl

[stark trench]

Dysphoria is not unique to trans people, even if it's a major component of experiences of many trans people with regards to gender. Trans people are, of course, marginalized and frequently either draw attention to or have their attention drawn to things that make them dysphoric, it's just we don't use the language of dysphoria when discussing, say, men who are anxious about not being sufficiently masculine.

[stark trench]

Not specifically, but they're included in the people who experience gender dysphoria.

[patent yacht]

Oh dysmorphia again

[stark trench]

It's not necessarily dysmorphia.

[magic python]

No not really

[patent yacht]

Yeah I get it

[floral mulch]

Dysmorphia isn't the same as dysphoria

[vernal silo]

What's the discussion today chat

[patent yacht]

Hehhehehe why didn't ya guys got the parole why'd it had to be me

[patent yacht]

Wait what let me check before I do something stupid

[magic python]

???

[stark trench]

Did my subsequent messages clarify?

[magic python]

I hate how the site that explains gender dysphoria is transmedicalist and excludes nontrans gender dysphoria iirc

[stark trench]

I basically just think people don't appreciate the everyday discomforts pertaining to gender people experience. It's a near-universal experience in gendered societies.

[vernal silo]

I am uninformed

How may non trans folk experience dysphoria?

There's gender dysphoria, then what?

[magic python]

They don't feel like their gender...

[patent yacht]

The other day we discuss abt self ha__ stuff and I was the one who got muted

[magic python]

Because you continued explicitly talking about it...

[vernal silo]

Yes those are trans

I am talking about people not just with gender dysphoria

[magic python]

NO THERE ARE CIS FOLK WHO DONT FEEL IT

[patent yacht]

Bruh I was talking abt absurdism,ah anyways let's continue with the new topic

[magic python]

Cis folk can EASILY feel like they aren't their gender as well

[vernal silo]

Well yes but they then identify as trans due to it, no?

[magic python]

NO

[vernal silo]

Ah

Elaborate please

[magic python]

Afab can still feel like they aren't truly a girl.

Amab can still feel like they aren't truly a boy.

[stark trench]

Let's take an example of gender dysphoria.

[patent yacht]

Ok she's gonna cook w this one

[vernal silo]

Well okay then why would they identify as cis then

[magic python]

"I'm not feminine enough" is an example of it in cis women, no?

[magic python]

Because they aren't another gender dude.

[ionic wraith]

it's fucking crazy that people record at concerts because unless ur an influencer, you're not likely to go back to that video

[vernal silo]

"Feminine" and women are different things

There are feminine men, that is, men who hold feminine characteristics

[magic python]

I'm trying to explain it dude. Because any other way you will say "Oh but that's just trans"

[vernal silo]

What'd sabrina do?

Is it the Arab controversy thing?

[magic python]

They don't feel like a proper woman due to gender standards.

[stark trench]

Many trans women get dysphoric about their height, because they are often slightly tall compared to the average height of women in their country.

Tall cis women also often experience the same discomfort and anxieties surrounding their height.

Many trans men get dysphoric about their face and grow beards to hide what they perceive as a feminine face.

Many cis men get dysphoric about their "baby" face and grow beards to hide what they perceive as a soft, feminine face.

[magic python]

That is an example of gender dysphoria.

[vernal silo]

Ah well that's a societal thing/stereotype is it not

[magic python]

That's what gender dysphoria mostly is.

[vernal silo]

Ah okay but stereotypes are dumb to adhere to

They are by definition a prejudice

[magic python]

It's a mental disorder, the fuck did you expect? Us to be able to just ignore it?

[stark trench]

It turns out that human bodies are pretty varied and diverse and invariably your body will not fall exactly into what the cultural presumptions for masculinity and femininity are.

[stark trench]

Hmm.

I don't really think there's anything disordered about it.

[magic python]

Mine is basically JUST from stereotypes

[magic python]

I can't really function properly because of it so i call it one

[vernal silo]

Is it more of a disorder than, say, an insecurity?

[stark trench]

I mean, I guess in general I don't believe in disorders but here I think I can convince you. It seems like a pretty sensible response to an extremely gendered world.

[stark trench]

Obviously, it's not desirable but it's no more disordered than teen angst is.

[magic python]

Does it matter what it is? It exists. That's that.

[stark trench]

Well, if it helps you understand your own experiences better, I can't really complain.

[vernal silo]

Like if I felt insecure about my masculinity or feminity and about certain traits due to how others perceive it stereotypically iw ouldnt call it an insecurity

[vernal silo]

Well yes I think a distinction between the two matter

[magic python]

Okay, how about this, you tell me how severe an insecurity is supposed to be, then I can tell you.

[ionic wraith]

looking back I definitely had gender dysphoria when going through puberty, like I hated the way I was attracted to women it scared the fuck out of me

[magic python]

I mean I use disorder and condition interchangeably as well

[vernal silo]

Insecurities are common, mental disorders imply an abnormal/divergent functioning of the brain

[floral mulch]

uuuuuuuuuuh, no, they don't

[vernal silo]

How so?

[magic python]

I mean how severely they affect the people who have them. Do I sound like i study if gender dysphoria is caused by brain damage???

Gender dysphoria kills. I'd call it a disorder just because of that icl.

[stark trench]

Insecurities can be of any severity, I'd think.

[magic python]

Well even if it is an insecurity, I don't see how much that matters to how bad it is.

[vernal silo]

Well I really don't know

But I'd call something like autism or adhd as a disorder

Feeling insecure about something is an evolutionary wiring and is not an outlier

[stark trench]

It doesn't.

[floral mulch]

With the most common mental disorders, the brain still "functions normally" (whatever that means)

A trauma in most cases doesn't alter the functionality of a brain, for example

[stark trench]

It has nothing to do with its badness.

[magic python]

So, something that impairs functioning?

[stark trench]

Lots of very bad things are obviously not disorders and lots of very fine and healthy and normal things are disorders, such as autism.

[vernal silo]

Yes I am aware, I am saying it is an abnormality/divergence. Doesn't mean the brain is literally broken but the way it functions is divergent

[floral mulch]

Then we'd also need to define "functioning"

[magic python]

Yeah I don't get why they thought asking it being an insecurity instead of a disorder changes anything

[vernal silo]

I realize I am being vague but my main point is that distinguishing between the 2 does matter

[floral mulch]

Then every single person, no matter if they have a condition or not would have a disorder, because literally every brain functions a bit differently...

[vernal silo]

Because if insecurities are cosnidered disorders then everyone has a disorder

[magic python]

Preferably liking life if I had to guess, but that is heavily flawed and includes delusions....

[vernal silo]

And the word "disorder" loses all meaning

[magic python]

It's legally classed as a disorder, no?

[stark trench]

I do not like the concept of "disorder" in general. I sometimes want to throw homosexuality in there just to make people violently uncomfortable and perhaps polemically realize they don't actually regard disorder non-normatively but I'd much rather not make somebody who doesn't know me think I'm some raging homophobe.

[floral mulch]

Then my adhd would not be a disorder, because I still like life, but it is by law not only a disorder, but also a disability

[magic python]

Oh yeah i guess ADHD can be rather calm with anhedonia...

[stark trench]

I do not think there's anything that really makes autism principally different from being gay or being trans or being straight or being cis or being schizophrenic or being bipolar or being blind.

[vernal silo]

"A bit" differently is the key. Obviously nobody is exactly the same. In that sense everyone does have a small divergence

Im talking about stuff that alter common human traits either socially, cognitively, etc.

If we want to precisely categorize then we'd need to pick a threshold of said divergence

[magic python]

I us mental disorder interchangeably with mental condition though so that may be why I am finer with the language "disordered"

[floral mulch]

Anyway, that discussion is becoming too draining for me
Byeee

[stark trench]

What is a mental condition?

[magic python]

Basically I just use it to mean anything you can get a diagnosis for... so rather useless

Disability is the only one I really have unique classing with

[torn talon]

How do you actually check for autism, I mean all my classmates and my siblings call me that but I amn't willing to test it for real because it wouldn't be right for me to one day walk up to my parents and say "Hey mom, did you know I am autistic".

[vernal silo]

According to WHO

A mental disorder is characterized by a clinically significant disturbance in an individual’s cognition, emotional regulation, or behaviour. It is usually associated with distress or impairment in important areas of functioning.

[torn talon]

I do see signs too but I amn't a doctor

[magic python]

So gender dysphoria. Got it.

[vernal silo]

Go to a psychiatrist to get diagnosed

[torn talon]

oh, well in that case I guess I might be in trouble

[torn talon]

okay, yeah maybe I should plan that out.

[stark trench]

Hmm, I see. So you'd say that whether something is a mental condition depends on what country you're in and changes over time?

[magic python]

As it can severely impact emotions and behavior

[vernal silo]

Last place you should check is discord or any social media space

[torn talon]

okay, yeah I will seek professional help, bye

[vernal silo]

I mean not right this instant lol but okay

[stark trench]

"Clinically significance disturbance" will ultimately be expounded upon in terms of teleology, because condition depends on teleology just the same.

[magic python]

I suppose, I don't really know much about them to say what is/isn't one (outside of what i have]. If someone calls something they have a disorder, I won't disagree with them.

[vernal silo]

Well yes I agree

I don't think every definition needs to be maximally precised either. I can't be bothered to

[magic python]

I don't have a list of disorders in my mind, I can barely house who I am in these memories

[stark trench]

Interesting. I would be concerned if someone described their homosexuality as a sexual disorder.

[magic python]

Okay I see where my logic is flawed

[vernal silo]

So can an insecurity about your weight

Whether your brain literally begins to hardwire itself to stop eating or not is what seperates from "I hate my weight" to "I am anorexic"

[magic python]

I internally exclude identity and sexuality from it automatically...

[stark trench]

Your brain never "hardwire[s] itself" to stop eating.

[magic python]

It's still a really bad thing...

[vernal silo]

I don't deny it

[stark trench]

You literally just eat less, it's pretty much just a scalar thing.

[magic python]

And many cis people are dysphoric about their gender.

[vernal silo]

One can diet vs. have an ed

[stark trench]

But even if that were true, so what?

[magic python]

They hate how they don't come off as their gender.

[vernal silo]

Again, if we're going to have a term for "disorder" and another for "insecurity" then we need to distinguish it to preserve meaning

[stark trench]

Would you say people can have cognitive disorders, for example, intellectual disability?

[vernal silo]

Yes, obviously

[magic python]

I'd call insecurities bad, considering I know how much harm they can cause.

[vernal silo]

And vice versa. Some disorders actually improve your intellectual capability

[stark trench]

Would you say being sufficiently skilled at a cognitive task, for example, mental rotations, is a disorder?

[vernal silo]

Well yes, but you can't simply deny they're a universally common experience

[stark trench]

Sure, but do you think that being sufficiently cognitively able is a disorder as is having a major cognitive deficit?

[magic python]

I can say they often aren't as severe as people with a gender dysphoria diagnosis can have it.

[vernal silo]

Certain disorders like HSAM types actually vastly improve your congitive function like memory and recall

[stark trench]

I ask because earlier you endorsed the idea that what characterizes a disorder is a sufficient deviation from the norm.

[magic python]

Though, that's mostly due to my delusional take that mine is somehow minor

[stark trench]

I am referring to just being very good at that task, with no other deficiencies in other skills or abilities.

[vernal silo]

Well, no, that's called skill, or talent, or both

[stark trench]

Alright, so it's not just about deviation.

[vernal silo]

Sure, I suppose

[stark trench]

Deviating sufficiently from the norm isn't sufficient to characterize disorder, then.

[vernal silo]

I suppose it isn't

But it is a factor

[zealous garden]

Disability and disorder is characterized by the impact on your ability to function in society for the most part

[stark trench]

Would you say that for a long period of time, then, homosexuality was a disorder?

[zealous garden]

Like being in constant anguish isn't quirky, it's obstructive to leading a healthy, functioning life

[vernal silo]

It was recognized as one, yes

[zealous garden]

It was, literally

[vernal silo]

I don't think it is, but it was seen as a disorder

[stark trench]

I see. Yeah, I don't think homosexuality ever was a disorder.

I guess I'm surprised you think it was.

[zealous garden]

It was literally defined as one

[stark trench]

People thought it was a disorder, which isn't the same as it being one.

[vernal silo]

Depending on how loosely you define "disorder" one can make the case that homosexuality is a disorder (without negative connotation, please let me make that clear) by simply arguing it deviates from the norm or evolutionary benefit

[stark trench]

I was asking you not if people believed or classified it as a disorder but whether you think it was actually a disorder.

Do you think being homosexual is still a disorder in, say, Iran?

[zealous garden]

I disagree, I think you apply the definitions you have, and if you don't agree with the results (I agree with you on that), then you should alter the definitions

[stark trench]

This is all ignoring the question of what it even means to impair functioning, but I think we can give some account that's not teleological so I'm not terribly concerned.

But it's basically my goal to try and convince you homosexuality isn't a disorder.

[vernal silo]

Well I don't think it is lol

Again it depends on how loosely you want to describe "disorder"

Ofc Im not the subject of question here, just my 2 cents

[stark trench]

Well, wraith thinks disorder depends on how impaired you are as a result of societal expectations.

In many places, being gay impairs you a shit ton.

Depending on where you live, so might being opposed to genocide or female genital mutilation, so I suppose those are disorders, too.

[vernal silo]

Refer back here

I think the definition is simply too flexible

[stark trench]

Yeah, I think it's worth discussing that option, Flash, but I do think it invokes the same teleology I think to be problematic.

[vernal silo]

"Disorder" also carries negative connotation when I believe it shouldn't

[stark trench]

I don't think it's possible to eliminate the negative connotation, actually, because I think it's an intrinsically normative concept.

[vernal silo]

I agree. Calling a homosexual as having a "disorder" understandably is problematic

[vernal silo]

Yes but it is also a legitimate medical term

[magic python]

I mean they can have other disorders

[stark trench]

I think it's probably desirable to eliminate it from medicine.

[vernal silo]

Possibly, but what would take its place?

[vernal silo]

Yes, a person can exhibit many disorders, I don't see how it conflates with anything

[stark trench]

Nothing.

Otherwise I would just revise the concept, probably.

[vernal silo]

I suppose so, but I imagine that would be confusing

[woeful trout]

Sociodivergent

[near fox]

What makes homosexuality a disorder?

[vernal silo]

A person who suffers from psychosis, for example, would need to be categorized as having an abnormality, medically and legally

[vernal silo]

If you refer back to my previous messages I made it clear I do not believe homosexuality is a disorder

I am still debating on how one may define "disorder"

[near fox]

However you are right that it deviates from evolutionary norm

Two men can't reproduce

[vernal silo]

I don't think deviation from the norm is inherently bad, as mutations happen constantly

I think one can argue with evolutionary benefit

[near fox]

My theory is that gay men were forced to pass their genes with women due to social pressures..

[vernal silo]

A question like "If everyone had this trait tomorrow, would the human race fundamentally die out as a cause of that"

[magic python]

actually it's possible

[near fox]

Is it?

[vernal silo]

Huge huge asterisk here

[magic python]

Cis man and a transmasc, transmasc can still be fertile.

[magic python]

Nope. Not at all.

[near fox]

What's a transmasc?

[idle steppe]

Thats not what he meant

[magic python]

Yall talked about men, had to intervene :3

[storm sage]

What? same-sex sexual behavior is common throughout the animal kingdom

Humans are not unique in it

[magic python]

It's a possibility for it to work dude.

[near fox]

Makes me wonder why

[idle steppe]

Im sure he meant people assigned male at birth rather than those who identify as men

[magic python]

They said man, not AMAB.

[near fox]

What evolutionary benefit does homosexuality add?

[magic python]

Simply put, assigned female at birth but is actually a man

[near fox]

I see. The inner gender

[magic python]

And i was obviously picking apart the wording.

[storm sage]

Yeah there's lots of theories about it, but no one knows for sure, for example there's the "gay uncle" hypothesis where having a gay relative means more individuals potentially involved in childrearing

[vernal silo]

Yes exactly

Which is why I don't think evolutionary deviation is the issue here, just evolutionary deficit

If an animal species for example can have male-male intercourse and still reliably reproduce then we wouldnt say its a "disorder" on their parts

[idle steppe]

Its called gender or gender identity

[vernal silo]

Intersex? Or just a transmale who identifies, well, as a male

[near fox]

I must learn about that

[idle steppe]

biological sex is what you were assigned at birth

[magic python]

Intersex can be transmasc...

[vernal silo]

I meant intersex specifically or a more general notion

[magic python]

There are ways for two men to have offspring without medical procedures, that's my point. The term "man" was vague.

[idle steppe]

Wait so is it possible for a person to be born with both genetalia?

[vernal silo]

Yes

[magic python]

I mean i believe it's quite rare for intersex AMAB to have a fully functioning female reproductive system

[true zinc]

I have more I can add to this

but pref. in dms

[vernal silo]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_Müllerian_duct_syndrome

[magic python]

Please do, I am dumb rn

[true zinc]

Oh I know someone with this

funny enough that's what i wanted to add on

[magic python]

Oh sure ig

[vernal silo]

Hmm to be fair aren't intersex people also medically considered to have a disorder?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disorders_of_sex_development

[silent junco]

a lot of traits exist without any kind of evolutionary benefit

[vernal silo]

Yes but they also dont exhibit evolutionary deficit

For example, colored eyes

[storm sage]

Other scientists think same-sex relationships are useful for maintaining social relationships and mediating conflicts

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-41290-x

[vernal silo]

Interesting

[silent junco]

would you consider not having wings as an evolutionary deficit

[oblique socket]

Kinda good point

[magic python]

Infertility is kinda common but has no trivial evolutionary advantage

[true zinc]

Personally I would but this is more for the whole "I do not even see myself as a human, and if I were to exist as an actual creature I probably would not survive more than a day without constant medical intervention"

[vernal silo]

If the species naturally typically evolved to have wings and/or the species as a whole relies on the wings for theor survival, then, yes

Humans more than make up for that with their intelligence and stamina

[true zinc]

Yes, if anything it would be somewhat of a disadvantage would it not?

[magic python]

Yeah as you can't spread genes

So evolution shouldn't care as much about you

[vernal silo]

I think one quick litmus test would be "would the entire species as we know it rapidly die out if every single member exhibits that trait tomorrow"

[magic python]

(Also why so many conditions develop after 50 iirc)

[magic python]

So infertility.

[true zinc]

I thought this was due to DNA damage and stuff

[magic python]

Yes, but evolution doesn't care after that, so we don't have much safeguards

[vernal silo]

It is a disorder of sexual function, probably one could count that

But also fertility naturally dies out as people grow older so Im not too sure

[magic python]

After you can't have children, evolution doesn't care what happens to the body afaik

[idle steppe]

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZNRqhd43X/

[storm sage]

Did infertility exist at as high rates in the past?

[magic python]

Well yeah the body starts dying

[storm sage]

I bet part of it is environmental

[magic python]

I mean many medications nowadays cause it so probably not

[vernal silo]

True

If the entire species would exhibit infertility after your typical ranges tomorrow (50+ years for females), then not only would the entire human population not rapidly die out, but nothing would change at all

[silent junco]

so something isnt an evolutionary deficit unless something else "makes up" for it?

[vernal silo]

I suppose so, although I feel like this might lead to a logical issue

Btw I dont claim to know how to define disorder hence why I am having this disuccion lol

[vernal silo]

I guess this same logic could apply to something like Alzheimer's though, which is considered to be a disorder

This is harder than I thought it'd be lol

[magic python]

If everyone was infertile tomorrow forever (any new births also infertile), humans would die.

[vernal silo]

In that case the term "disorder" could be defined loosely as that

[magic python]

Many disorders form prior to the bodies permanent degradation

[vernal silo]

Yes I am aware. I am talking about deficit

Autism, even though as a spectrum, can affect social and cognitive function and hence cause distress, net effect = deficit

Ergo Autism is a disorder, this is the logic I'm trying to go for

But it does have holes I must admit

[magic python]

Insecurities can cause distress, impair social functioning, and in extreme cases impair cognitive function I'd argue.

[vernal silo]

Well yes but insecurities themselves are not the primary driver of that, are they? If someone has severe deficit due to a disorder it may be something else that contributes to it

[silent junco]

yeah i mean how do we even single out a "trait" to begin with? we can only talk about changes that have already occurred in the traits of a species.

[vernal silo]

And insecurities here act as a catalyst of sorts

[magic python]

Just bringing up how earlier you asked if gender dysphoria was a disorder or insecurity, I'd argue it does all three of those things quite often, therefore disorder.

[vernal silo]

Hmmm fair enough

[magic python]

It explicitly does all three to me

[vernal silo]

When I asked regarding what is dysphoria though you mentioned insecurities almost exclusively

Something about my intuition says one cant just say insecurities are disorders

Probably because everyone has them so "disorder" would lose all meaning

[vernal silo]

I am sorry about that

[magic python]

It's fine, it only does them because i let it, especially the last one

[magic python]

I'd call bad insecurities a disorder.

[vernal silo]

Self blame isn't productive

I know I know Im not being helpful, but still

[vernal silo]

Yes I was just about to mention that

I guess you could have a say on HOW severely an insecurity impairs function

[magic python]

No it literally only degraded my functioning because I forced myself to think it would 😭

[magic python]

Then again, many severe insecurities fall under disordered already, falling into either gender dysphoria, body dysmorphia, or delusions iirc.

[vernal silo]

Or as @stark trench proposed, dropping the term "disorder" altogether could be of merit lol

However I believe it does hold a place, especially medically

[vernal silo]

I suppose that's true

[magic python]

Basically, if you can get diagnosed with something from said insecurity, it's a disorder here

Though, disorder is more charged than condition is

[vernal silo]

Anyways my proposed definition is quite loose I must admit, and it does feel wrong to categorize something like homosexuality as a "disorder"

However minus the negative connotation I suppose it can work

[magic python]

I'd just drop disorder if I could but I just can't see myself constantly typing condition all the time

[vernal silo]

Only reinforces my point lol

[magic python]

it partially made me force myself so it kinda caused it anyways

[vernal silo]

Self blame is not productive. I am sorry about how you feel and how it affected you, as I've suggested last time, if possible I really think professional guidance is the sustainable option

[magic python]

Oh I thought you meant the point of it being an insecurity, I am dumb

[vernal silo]

Nah it's all good

[near fox]

Do you think God knows math well?

[last rose]

if we were to assume that God is omniscient, then there'd be no distinction between knowing well and knowing

[ionic wraith]

[vast wraith]

[rocky shuttle]

God knows

[vast wraith]

math knows god

[calm fulcrum]

math knows math

metatheory is pretty interesting

[wise jetty]

@eager notch are you here?

[eager notch]

yea

[storm yoke]

okay why do you think academic excellence defines your VALUE as a person?

[wise jetty]

hello
so, look i totally and entirely get that despair, but the fact is it's not as though you have to pick a maths oriented career, or get into hte best uni of all time, yk?
ive realised that this stuff doesn't work, what matters is more the person that you are, if i don't get into cambridge doesn't mean i'll never amount to anything at all

[eager notch]

it'll help me in the future

[eager notch]

but i need to get a good atar to even get into uni and i wanna like acc get rich i dont want an average life but maths is just in the way

[wise jetty]

what matters is what you choose to do, far, far, far more than any numbers; my own mother got into med school on her third try

[storm yoke]

thinking academic excellence defines your value as a person is actually very counterproductive

it's going to destroy your self esteem

bro I'm not saying why do you want to be good at this

I'm saying, don't DEFINE YOURSELF by this, please

not worth it

[vast wraith]

true!

[eager notch]

maths genuinely had me getting thoughts

[vast wraith]

mathematical logic and philosophy of math is a lot of fun

[storm yoke]

yes extremely true

[eager notch]

i need it tho

[storm yoke]

it's NUMBERS bro stop caring this much

[eager notch]

whys it so fucking important then

[storm yoke]

IT ISN'T

[wise jetty]

i think this desire for material wealth might be an issue, because life can be fine without money, like i value my friendships and just hanging out with my friends and cutting strawberries for myself, or cooking myself garlic bread, or just going outside and listening to music, far more than expensive clothes or anything

[eager notch]

its not a desire

[storm yoke]

just don't do maths then??

you don't NEED maths to be wealthy

[eager notch]

its jsst something i wish upon myself and im motivated to do so but i dont know anything

[eager notch]

but i need a good atar and i wanna get better at maths

[storm yoke]

then instead of getting sad about maths being a block

look into alternatives and do more research

[eager notch]

its just too hard to comprehend

[wise jetty]

look. first off

[storm yoke]

don't engage tjis much in something if it's producing such negative emotions in you

at least for now
take a break
figure things out

[eager notch]

theres no time for breaks bro ive got exams coming up and esp in the future i need to grasp these concepts now

[storm yoke]

okay could you like list all your issues and also your arguments for why you still want to pursue maths?

I'm getting confused cause you're approaching this from different angles

[eager notch]

i cant just quit maths like i need to get better obviously

[storm yoke]

that

isn't really a response...

[hidden isle]

oh you’re australian

[eager notch]

my problem is why its so much formulas for me to remember and like why do i forget it anyway the next day no matter how much revision its just draining

[storm yoke]

bro first of all

just try to relax for now you seem very overwhelmed you're talking about offing yourself

[hidden isle]

what hsc subjects are you doing