serious-discussion

[ripe jolt]

bro ur talking about athletes now, not us

[zealous garden]

no, like natural antibodies

[ripe jolt]

that's how vaccine work they put a dead virus in it and the antibodies learn how to fight it

[zealous garden]

Running isn't hard

[ripe jolt]

it is harder than weight lifting

for me

[zealous garden]

Humans are literally designed for distance running

[ripe jolt]

id rather lfit weights than do cardio

[dull lily]

bad take

[zealous garden]

We are endurance runners

this is how humans survived

[dusty wraith]

lifting is definitely easier..

[ripe jolt]

maybe my ancestors didnt

[ripe jolt]

frr

[zealous garden]

we used spears and ran down the animals that needed to pant cus they couldn't sweat

[ripe jolt]

although cardio does feel much better once u do it compared to lifting

after u do cardio it feels so good in ur brain

[zealous garden]

we have some of the most efficient body cooling systems in the animal kingdom

[dusty wraith]

so is there hope for my brain to adapt and get better at math or am I staying stupid at it forever

[glossy marlin]

yeah, it can just have one or two things not functioning and work with or around that, brains just pick up and give up phantom limbs at times, people can understand the world better because of limitations, it is extremely flexible, both elastically and plastically as some would say.

[dull lily]

I wonder how exerting yourself for less than 1 minute and resting for 3 is easier than exerting yourself for several minutes with most of your muscles firing

[zealous garden]

we can dissipate a kilowatt of heat at maximum capacity, that's more than a horsepower

[storm sage]

We're designed for both fast movements and endurance movements, which is why we have multiple muscle and nerve fiber tyopes

[zealous garden]

which in theory means we can sustain an output of 1.333 hp continuously

[ripe jolt]

idk but some poeple are very good at math since childhood like Kolmogorov

[zealous garden]

We're based as fuck

[dull lily]

that's impossible in practice

[zealous garden]

Very few animals have as wide a diet as humans

[cosmic apex]

I started running a few weeks ago, I feel very happy about this decision

[zealous garden]

Also have you ever heard of wolff's law?

[glossy marlin]

1.33 14 inch shells at all times?

[ripe jolt]

bro glaizng his own species 😂

[zealous garden]

Microfactures in your bones, i.e. conditioning and hard blows that hurt but don't break anything, strengthen your bones over time

[ripe jolt]

bonesmashing

[zealous garden]

this is how the monks do it

your body reinforces itself to the stresses you put it under

[ripe jolt]

also i think all mammals have wolff's law

[zealous garden]

in some flabberasting ways

[zealous garden]

yes, and?

I AM MAMMAL, I AM STRONG

[ripe jolt]

oh i thought u meant stuff only applicable to humans

[ripe jolt]

yep

[zealous garden]

Humans are apes and that's ape as fuck, I talk to my inner monkey all the time

[ripe jolt]

i gotta ignore my inner monkey often

[dusty wraith]

does that mean its over for me and my memory is going to stay bad forever

[dull lily]

you give off the vibe you think you could take on a bear in a fight

[ripe jolt]

if u have a bad memory then there's probably a reason

[zealous garden]

I feel like running is literally necessary to be a proper human being

[ripe jolt]

a man actually has fought a ber and survived

[dusty wraith]

like what

[ripe jolt]

idk could be many things. see a doctor

[glossy marlin]

plant: "evolution, please give me neurotoxins or other substances to deter predators"
humans: drinks coffee, eats chillis as snack, etc.

[zealous garden]

if you don't have legs, think real hard about running while you flutter your eyelids, same xperience

[ripe jolt]

bro 😂

[dusty wraith]

what are the doctors for memory

[dull lily]

if you throw enough shit at a wall, some will stick

[zealous garden]

everyone knows about how going for a walk or a jog can completely change the way your thinking and releases hormones and bla bla bla

[ripe jolt]

neurologist

[zealous garden]

I posit that our brains have evolved to actually depend on this activity to properly perform their computations

[ripe jolt]

frr everytime i do cardio i feel way better and happier afterwards

it's amazing

[dusty wraith]

but how do i know if i really have bad memory or not

[ripe jolt]

if u forget stuff

[glossy marlin]

-# I learned to run before I got into elementary school, it´s not that impressive unless you had some disability /j

[storm sage]

Also to the point about neurons detecting patterns—there's some really cool work about this, for example Oja showed that simple Hebbian learning rules could essentially make neurons perform PCA

[zealous garden]

Like I think the human being is held back from their proper state

[dusty wraith]

doesn't everyone

[sick parrot]

lets use every last drop

[ripe jolt]

not as much

[dusty wraith]

but that's vague.. what is "much"

[dull lily]

I feel like this is unserious discussion

[zealous garden]

It's wonderful when the rhythm hits and you're just breathing and moving

Have you ever ran 5 miles with no music

[dusty wraith]

I am serious but okay

[dull lily]

do you remember what you ate yesterday

[dusty wraith]

no

[ripe jolt]

never ran that much

[dull lily]

does it matter?

[dusty wraith]

no

[sick parrot]

I have one of those chinese stairmasters at home and I climb it to feel like an aura monster

[zealous garden]

I haven't run in a while actually, but I usually did 3-5 miles

[dull lily]

okay so like forgetting stuff isn't bad, forgetting some stuff is kinda bad

[glossy marlin]

the preparation releases a lot of those hormones and there´s some weird stuff about some energy coming from muscles, the "changing how you think" sounds more like some more general psychology.

[ripe jolt]

i did track and prolly ran many miles in total but at once without stopping ive only run prolly 1-2 miles

[dusty wraith]

yes but i forget important stuff too..

I have to go through proofs like 10 times to remember them and then even then i forget them pretty quickly

[ripe jolt]

do u understand them?

[dusty wraith]

yes

[dull lily]

it's usually better to understand and not memorize

[dusty wraith]

yes i do understand them

[dull lily]

then you should be able to just remember the first step and derive the rest

[zealous garden]

I will say I pretty much never full out sprint, or even run very hard, I focus on finding the fastest pace that feels like I could keep going indefinitely (as long as I keep my breathing rhythm intact)

[dusty wraith]

i don't think its that simple though

there are usually many important unrelated ideas in a proof

[ripe jolt]

im starting to workout again. imma run after i get fit . rn i onlly do cardio on the rowing machine

[zealous garden]

not always but sometimes

[dusty wraith]

yeah

[zealous garden]

Are there?

I mean I guess?

[ripe jolt]

u need a good mental model

[dull lily]

sure but if it's like say a proof by contradiction, if you vaguely remember the initial statement and contradiction you know how to go about proving jt

[dusty wraith]

idk

[zealous garden]

I mean the thing is, if you also at one time already knew the answer

[glossy marlin]

-# that´s another weird thing, I can usually control heart rate and breathing a bit but not in an "it´s rarely or not automatic" way...

[zealous garden]

then having the first step will probably be plenty

because you'll start to put it together and oftentimes recall the full form

of course not always

[ripe jolt]

u did either track or ctoss country?

[dusty wraith]

I feel like its not about the first step it's about remembering the "tricks" in the proof

[zealous garden]

No, I did deep depression and a desire to better myself

[ripe jolt]

many nerds did running at my school

[dusty wraith]

i can remember the first step but I get stuck at some point that needs a trick which i forget

[ripe jolt]

but they didnt do other sports like football

[zealous garden]

I'm not sure what you mean

[dusty wraith]

what math do you know I could give an example

but like

[zealous garden]

I know a little algebra

[dusty wraith]

ah, wanted to give an analysis or topology example :/

[zealous garden]

try topology

I know some analysis and topology, only real analysis and only pointset topology fr

ig I know basic alg top

basic basic

I need to learn complex analysis

so that I can properly learn clifford analysis

[zealous garden]

do you know cartan-dieudonne theorem

[dusty wraith]

nope

[zealous garden]

did you already find your example

[dusty wraith]

looking for one

[zealous garden]

cartan-dieudonne might work

Let $A$ be an isometry on an $n$ dimensional nondegenerate metric vectorspace, then $A = R_1\cdots R_k$ for hyperplane reflections $R_i$ with $k\leq n$. ($A$ is a composition of at $\textit{most}$ $n$ reflections.)

[fathom swallow]

wraithlord_kototality

[dusty wraith]

this uses many different ideas in the proof?

[zealous garden]

Idk

I said might

let me try to write the proof

and you tell me

[dusty wraith]

okay

what I mean though is like many proofs have steps that have a creative trick its not something that you can just write as long as you know the start, you have to remember the trick

so "remembering the first step" is an oversimplification like I feel that you need to remember multiple things... roughly the first step and the big picture and the tricks

[zealous garden]

not sure I've encountered that

I mean there's multiple ideas in the proof

sure

but they always feel connected by virtue of being in the proof to the idea I guess?

[dusty wraith]

you never felt like you are writing a proof but get stuck in the middle?

[zealous garden]

Always

[dusty wraith]

missing some kind of trick

that's what i mean

[dusty wraith]

I do guess maybe this is a good way to remember proofs though, I realized that the (difficult) proofs that I do remember I have these in my head when I look at the theorem

are pictures not allowed to be sent here lol

[long matrix]

this cold drip was good

[long matrix]

🤨

[dusty wraith]

why can't I send pictures 🙁

[long matrix]

:/

[calm fulcrum]

you need active+ i think?

[zealous garden]

We will prove by induction, for $n=1$, we use that $GL(\bb F^1)\cong F^\times$ and conclude that $A \in \bb F^\times$ must satisfy $$A(v)A(v)=v^2=A^2v^2$$ which implies $A^2 = 1$. Then we grab your favorite theorem that shows your only solutions are $A=\pm 1$, this is the reflection through the origin (0 on the line), done.

Assuming it holds for $n-1$, let $Av=w$ for some vector $v\in\bb F^n$,

if $v$ and $w$ are linearly dependent, then $A$ is an isometry on $X:= \mathrm{span}(v)^\perp$, since $V$ is nondegenerate, $X$ is of dimension $n-1$, and thus $A=R_1\cdots R_k$, case done.

if $v$ and $w$ are not linearly dependent, then take a reflection $R$ mapping $w\mapsto v$, then $RA = R_1\cdots R_{k-1}$ by induction hypothesis and previous argument, implying $A=R R_1\cdots R_{k-1}$

$\square$

[dusty wraith]

ah okay

[zealous garden]

I think that works

[calm fulcrum]

also i feel like this would go in #discussion?

idk correct me on that

[ripe jolt]

what is it?

[fathom swallow]

wraithlord_kototality

[dusty wraith]

yeah I don't know much linear algebra lol I don't think i can understand this rn

idk what nondegenerate means

if u know a bit of measure theory I think the construction of two disjoint sets A,B such that m(A U B) neq m(A) + m(B)

m is the outer measure

[zealous garden]

I don't know enough

[dusty wraith]

its like the vitali set construction

[sharp sage]

Vagueposting.

[zealous garden]

it means that there's no nonzero vector whose dot product with everything is 0

equivalently, that the symmetric bilinear form functions as an isomorphism to the dual space

[dusty wraith]

I need to study linear algebra idk what I am doing haha

[zealous garden]

lmfao

[dusty wraith]

i know that every vector space has a basis and that's it

[zealous garden]

kektopus

[zealous garden]

so you assume axiom of choice then

[dusty wraith]

yes..

[zealous garden]

do you know what a dual space is

[dusty wraith]

yeah

barely

[vivid halo]

characteristic 2

[dusty wraith]

what

[zealous garden]

char 2

[vivid halo]

love hate relationship

[zealous garden]

char 2

It's like those anime mid-cut cards

like the ad break in the middle

[calm fulcrum]

a computer scientist's favorite char

[hollow ginkgo]

and an algebraist’s least favorite

[zealous garden]

shawty looking like a F_2 vectorspace

[zealous garden]

idk, char 2 is fun sometimes

it's really really sad if you ask it to be like the other kids

but if you just let it be autistic, it's chill

[vivid halo]

char 3 is arguably weirder in a lot of ways sometimes

[zealous garden]

I can't count to 3 fr so I wouldn't know

[vivid halo]

part of what makes char 2 richer and more difficult, other than numerical coincidences for small primes, is how this interacts with all the bilinear constructions that show up everywhere

[zealous garden]

wraith you're so smart right? what's [simple word problem]
gives five different answers in 10 seconds

[vivid halo]

char 3 forces you to really think about trilinear constructions

[zealous garden]

fucking

[latent edge]

More and more I think 2pi i should have its own letter

petition to use L for 2pi i

pls

[vivid halo]

people already do nerd

[latent edge]

thank god

[hollow ginkgo]

Char 1 is super easy

[latent edge]

I WANT TO SEE IT IN ACTION

[zealous garden]

1+1=1, 1+1+1=1, and 1+1+1+1=1, respectively

[latent edge]

F_un is not even that exciting. Wait till you get to F_six

[zealous garden]

oh look it's organic chemistry

[latent edge]

oh this is serious discussion

[hollow ginkgo]

I was referring to the trivial ring

[sharp sage]

Should we ban math from here since this is politics chat

[dapper badge]

I remember reading something where the author specified that the result holds in any field of characteristic >= -1

[dusty wraith]

it says no particular focus on math but not no math

[zealous garden]

I'm terrified by this statement ngl

[vivid halo]

you joke but "F_{-1}" type statements do show up in representation theory lmao

[glossy marlin]

what´s so much more interesting about characteristic -2

[latent edge]

write L res(f,z_0) to scare the hoes

[sharp sage]

And this is why i am banned from #『meta-discussion』

[vivid halo]

tfw working over F_{-q}

[zealous garden]

F_2 vectorspaces are my favorite vectorspaces

F_p,q when

[latent edge]

what is F_{-q] though

[vivid halo]

another fun fact: the mod p sphere spectrum S/p exists and has reasonable structure for p>3. But S/3 doesn't exist with good structure, only S/9 does, and neither S/2 nor S/4 exists with good structure, only S/8 does

[hollow ginkgo]

So basically, we want q>4?

[vivid halo]

no it's much more complicated than this

[dapper badge]

What does good structure mean here

[vivid halo]

if you're trying to do algebra with spectra there is a hierarchy of different levels of associativity and commutativity these things satisfy as ring spectra

there are various levels of associativity A_n and various levels of commutativity E_n, and A_infinity=E_1 is basically the absolute minimum that one wants these things to satisfy

S/p satisfies coherent associativity up to A_{p-1} but provably not A_p

[latent edge]

I'm genuinely brainrotted at this point

[vivid halo]

but S/p^2 becomes A_infinity=E_1 and continues to improve for larger powers

[dapper badge]

Oh weird. Isn't A_infty the same as being a loop space? What's the delooping

[vivid halo]

lol what is wrong with this

[latent edge]

absolutely nothing

i love it in fact

[vivid halo]

yes in general E_n buys you n-fold deloopings

a lot of important spectra aren't E_\infty just like many important rings that show up classically are not commutative

[dapper badge]

I am trying to learn Madsen-Tillman spectra

[vivid halo]

haha sick me too somewhat lately

MTFW

[dapper badge]

I guess only MTSO(n)

But it's cool, it's fun to unwrap Pontrjagin-Thom and figure out what the homotopy groups of these things are

[vivid halo]

yeah definitely

[ionic thicket]

Am I only allowed to talk Abt math in this channel

[vivid halo]

I've been trying to understand some of that sort of thing with MGL in the motivic setting lately

usually when working with motives one is thinking about algebraic cycles, as classes in integral motivic cohomology (or rational algebraic K-theory if you ignore torsion issues)

but thinking of them in terms of algebraic cobordism cycles sees some torsion information which integral motivic cohomology does not see

[vocal viper]

what's this channel for?

[vivid halo]

serious discussion

[vocal viper]

no duh

[shadow palm]

Hey nG, hope you are having a great day/night

[vivid halo]

I should sleep soon

[shadow palm]

Ah, well, hope you rest well then :)

[zealous garden]

hope you're having a great time Mike, how goes it

[shadow palm]

I'm good, hbu

[sharp sage]

Gn

Genuine question : why is underused in this sever?

[zealous garden]

we don't use noggin

[latent edge]

hey wanna play lego
lego in question

[shadow palm]

Hey nD, hope you are having a great day/night

[vivid halo]

fun fact, K_0(Var_k) has much less to do with motives and much more to do with 2-motives

[latent edge]

[zealous garden]

I'm still alive but I'm barely breathing

[shadow palm]

[zealous garden]

no more lyric posting

[shadow palm]

https://tenor.com/view/sad-spiderman-walking-sad-spiderman-spiderman-spider-man-sad-spider-man-gif-3703119905849809936

[median fern]

if you asked an all knowing orb the probability of a singular event occurring or having occurred would it not be a binary 0% or 100%

[sharp sage]

Nope.

In theory such an omniscient entity would know everyathing and anything that has happened and will happened and therefore only has 2 answers yes or no (unless they are joking to you)

[median fern]

wouldnt that mean yes

scenario:
agent asks the orb whether it will lift its left arm in the next minute. orb says yes. does the agent have free will? what would the orbs answer be if the agent intends the opposite?

[sharp sage]

What does it refer to in this context, the agent or the orb?

If "it" means the agent, then if the orb says yes then the agent will lift their hand in the next minute, because the orbs knows it will happen.

If the orb doesnt lie to them that is

[median fern]

agent sorry
orbs dont have arms in this scnario

[median fern]

so free will doesnt exist then unless we restrict the orbs domain

[sharp sage]

Yes.

Such an orb excludes the existence of free will

Whether it exists idk

[median fern]

we either restrict its domain or impermanate the agents knowledge

[sharp sage]

Probably

[odd narwhal]

It is also possible that such an orb can warp reality to suit its predictions

That doesn't necessarily preclude free will, it just means there will be certain predetermined outcomes

[sharp sage]

Reminds me of the "loom of fate" trope

[tight copper]

whoph moves here?

a very serious topic

[sharp sage]

#1163339826003710022

Check it

For those of you who see no access, ignore it

Basically the same thing is posted in #changelog

[tight copper]

yea i know about the change

thanks for informing

[dense ravine]

@flint fog Under what morality is a god that decides to create sentient creatures with the capacity to suffer morally good?

Linking from the #discussion channel

[flint fog]

It is not about morals and values that we understand as to our limits, we don't understand god, if he is all wise then surely what he does is for your good. God have given humans free will through which we choose right or wrong and we would be judged based on that

[pallid roost]

Sometimes I don't understand why we're still on morals when, by sitting alone and reflecting on yourself, having empathy a bit and look why actions mean something.
People will come to realize good and evil simply just mean whatever that continue at best natural vs. which is so profusely opposing so much so it's unnecessary and damaging for all.

[dense ravine]

Well, I’m just saying, shouldn’t moral good be determined by reducing suffering?

As opposed to divine will

A system that argues divine will overrides this morality leads to religious wars

Which are harmful to humanity and society

[flint fog]

Surely, according to my religion every human is born muslim or in fitrah but is further influenced by his surroundings and God send childrens directly to heaven even if his parents follow other religion

[dense ravine]

So then I ask? Wouldn’t a god with the power and ability to reduce human suffering be in the moral wrong for not choosing to do so?

[sharp sage]

rule 1 of religion: ignore contradictions in your teachings

[flint fog]

But god doesn't directly interfere in our lives like israel is choosing to bomb Palestine through his will like if I do calculation that two cars in front of me are going to strike each other and the persons in them would die, I know but I don't do anything and same is for god, he have given free will to humans through which they choose right or wrong and they would be judged based on their actions

[dense ravine]

Therefore giving humans free will is morally wrong

We are left in a situation where we must either accept a god who isn’t omnipotent but good or god who is omnipotent but indifferent (not good or bad) and humans are not his focus, maybe an accident

[flint fog]

Yes but we are tested and we would be responsible for our actions

[dense ravine]

Personally I believe the latter

[flint fog]

Like if we follow god sincerely we would be sent to heaven given

[pallid roost]

Heh? What is this heaven/hell?

Some say emotional state of mind, some say a spiritual place, what is it?

[dense ravine]

Let’s talk about this after

[pallid roost]

I want answers that does not rely on any sacred texts but the most fundamental ignition of natural human intuition

[dense ravine]

Do you still think god is an objective moral good under the principle of reducing human suffering?

Or that god by definition is good, therefore morality is based on the will of god

I would argue that the latter one is a belief that is actively harmful to human society, as it creates moral exceptions for violent actions

[flint fog]

The Opener (1:2)

ٱلْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ رَبِّ ٱلْعَـٰلَمِينَ ٢

All praise is for Allah—Lord of all worlds,
The Opener (1:3)

ٱلرَّحْمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ ٣

the Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,

These are some verses from the Qur'an where he specifically speaks about being compassionate and merciful

[dense ravine]

Regardless, the best way to preserve god’s integrity in my mind is to have humanity be an accident in gods creation, and have him indifferent to humanity

[subtle magnet]

Wait, since when did this channel become religious preaching?

[flint fog]

I am talking to another individual

[dense ravine]

So therefore, you are agreeing with my latter option, that god is by definition good and merciful

[shadow mauve]

#changelog

[dense ravine]

Since it says so in the religious text

Is that right?

[foggy meadow]

About allah being that way?

Also how does the koran define those things?

[flint fog]

He is both merciful and just, meaning every person is accountable for his actions and some would be judged based on that while

[subtle magnet]

Idk. Quoting religious books literally doesn't seem very conducive to discussion, more so preaching. Ik about the change. Just wondering what in the preachy hell is going on here.

[pallid roost]

Ok, this... Who wrote those texts?
Some said God some said human, who?

You see my point, right?

[flint fog]

He is merciful as well by forgiving sins

[subtle magnet]

What is sin?

[dense ravine]

I’m a doubter as well, so I agree, but that is not the topic

[shadow mauve]

They’re discussing religion so quoting is part of the convo in some way

[dense ravine]

Fair

[flint fog]

The Opener (1:4)

مَـٰلِكِ يَوْمِ ٱلدِّينِ ٤

Master of the Day of Judgment.

[pallid roost]

It's simply humans dude, but they so endowed with experience of beautiful knowledge they picked around they thanked God for it and simplify it as God writing it for them thru their minds or whatever

[sharp sage]

opposite/hypotenuse

[grim torrent]

x - x^3/3! + x^5/5! - ...

[grim torrent]

Shut up

I did it first.

And in the more based way.

[pallid roost]

meanie

[grim torrent]

I was kidding sorry if it didn't come across

[pallid roost]

I'll sue your Tailor

[flint fog]

Sin is something that god have said to be sin like killing a person

[dense ravine]

Taylor series gonna fry me on the BC exam

[sharp sage]

(i know twin)

[grim torrent]

It's easy don't worry

Especially on the bc exam

[dense ravine]

Alright, so gods will defines morality

[pallid roost]

Bring in needles to threaten the examiner

[grim torrent]

I don't think I know a single person who managed to get below a 5 on bc

[subtle magnet]

Ordinate of a point on the unit circle. Much more elegant

[dense ravine]

That is your interpretation

[pallid roost]

Man if this is so, Gods screwed up

[grim torrent]

🥸

Power series def is prob my favorite cuz of analysis

[flint fog]

You can read Qur'an online, many of your questions would be answered

[subtle magnet]

So God decides sin and forgives it too? Awfully convenient?

[dense ravine]

@flint fog Is that right?

[grim torrent]

And it's very elegant to go from power series of e^x all the way to getting a geometric interpretation of pi

[pallid roost]

I cannot believe words of people who cannot differentiate reality described by texts vs. reality as texts

[dense ravine]

My goal is not to address the religious text but rather your beliefs

[subtle magnet]

How does God tell us what the sin is and when he/she/they have forgiven us?

[dense ravine]

My goal is to understand your understanding

[pallid roost]

What about cos, why only sin?

[subtle magnet]

How do you know that the guy who wrote the damn book was not high on some beautiful drugs or maybe schizo?

[flint fog]

I am a muslim, I follow god and his commands

[subtle magnet]

When did he/she/they command you? Show me the evidence

[shadow mauve]

You’re being a little dense bro, chillax a bit

[pallid roost]

Is his command to be a good person of good communication?

[subtle magnet]

Just cos

[flint fog]

You can read Qur'an lol

[flint fog]

Yes

[dense ravine]

I get that, but I think there is an uncomfortable truth with that religion

[pallid roost]

Then you've failed the second part, you must try again

[flint fog]

And what is that

[subtle magnet]

In which set?

[pallid roost]

For I consulted with the God of plants and he answers whether tomato is a vegetable or a fruit. /j

[dense ravine]

It defines morality via gods will, not reducing human suffering

[subtle magnet]

Why should I read some random dude's hallucinations?

[dull socket]

i consider ishowspeed as god because he brings me happiness /j

[dense ravine]

Therefore you must either accept that it is wrong or that gods will is that people will suffer

[pallid roost]

Markiplier is my angel bringing his screams to beauty /j

[flint fog]

The Cow (2:22)

ٱلَّذِى جَعَلَ لَكُمُ ٱلْأَرْضَ فِرَٰشًۭا وَٱلسَّمَآءَ بِنَآءًۭ وَأَنزَلَ مِنَ ٱلسَّمَآءِ مَآءًۭ فَأَخْرَجَ بِهِۦ مِنَ ٱلثَّمَرَٰتِ رِزْقًۭا لَّكُمْ ۖ فَلَا تَجْعَلُوا۟ لِلَّهِ أَندَادًۭا وَأَنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ ٢٢

˹He is the One˺ Who has made the earth a place of settlement for you and the sky a canopy; and sends down rain from the sky, causing fruits to grow as a provision for you. So do not knowingly set up equals to Allah ˹in worship˺.

[dense ravine]

Which to me appears to be a malevolent god if you will

[pallid roost]

Y'know if I have to be picky about this, if God really exists, I want him to Idk... Leave us alone.

[dull socket]

you are basically telling me that quran lied because precipitation is caused due to temp diff and other factors

[dense ravine]

I’m arguing that gods decision to make the universe, and creatures who can suffer within it is morally wrong

[subtle magnet]

Why is a he? Have you seen the family jewels? Has anyone? Or maybe a DNA test?

[pallid roost]

Problem is they wanted God to be all-great all-powerful but ignoring the consequences behind whatever actions of ours we associated in retrospect.

[verbal quest]

I thought this chat was serious but we're quoting a cow

[flint fog]

That is surah's name

[pallid roost]

Haha, lumped so much it's more a point than a sphere

[subtle magnet]

You're gonna trigger the Hindus next

[subtle magnet]

And who is that?

[umbral ocean]

Nah, we ain't that serious about cows. I just demolished a burger.

It tasted disgusting.

[dull socket]

He is from the island

[pallid roost]

I don't get it, does God give me a therapy talk face-to-face, clean my house, cook my noodles, do my homework, lecture me how to think better or learn better?

[subtle magnet]

Aah. I would kill (a cow) for a burger

[flint fog]

https://youtube.com/@arabic101?si=aB_C8MKaIiOZmhUU

[pallid roost]

Why can't he do that? I wonder.

[verbal quest]

https://tenor.com/view/que-sera-sera-doris-day-que-sera-sera-doris-day-gif-6329316007933466898

[umbral ocean]

You don't need to. There are people who do it for you.

They are called McDonald's

[subtle magnet]

Yuck

Try Five Guys my man

[twin pasture]

just one?

[flint fog]

You can watch this dude's videos, he explains the Qur'an

[dull socket]

five guys is too much bro

[subtle magnet]

If we're talking a chain that is

[pallid roost]

Do you know most of YT is poisoned by chatbot contents?

[foggy meadow]

So, why would this make some one want to read the koran?

[subtle magnet]

The fries and shakes are goated tho

[umbral ocean]

I would rather melt lead and pour it into my eyes. No offense.

[pallid roost]

Plus I don't wanna be rude but aren't most religious texts just some inspirational quotes?

[foggy meadow]

Like a lot of religions do have this idea.

[flint fog]

I'm addressing that person btw

[foggy meadow]

I know.

[dull socket]

five guys + a snake? you are a monster man

[dense ravine]

@flint fog I feel like you haven’t addressed my issue directly. I’m arguing that gods decision to make the universe, and creatures who can suffer within it is morally wrong. Do you agree with this statement? Or do you disagree because morality is gods will and not based on reducing human suffering. I’m asking for YOUR opinion, not your religious text.

[subtle magnet]

https://youtu.be/-DSQHJXtfpE?si=MtUrV-km363MiiJ9

Best critique of religion on media in one nice dialogue

[pallid roost]

No, not 'fuck god' or anything against him, just like, leave him be cuz in the end. Humans do this, create meaning, screw up, blame/thank God.

[foggy meadow]

Not always no.

[dull socket]

yes they are made to increase moral of the citizens

[pallid roost]

Hmmm 'moral of the citizens'
Then Imma just go be monke

Oo oo aa aa what iz moraallss is it banana

[subtle magnet]

No. That's just the punchline of the dialogue. Watch the scene. It's chilling

[outer minnow]

in china they call it social credits

[flint fog]

I disagree

[verbal quest]

do they have Five Guys in India
well, I guess they have ~750m

[dull socket]

xi is pleased

[pallid roost]

Now that's better!
Time to grind.

[dense ravine]

With what part and why, explain in detail without quoting?

[pallid roost]

Ni hao Communism the best!

[umbral ocean]

They do have them in Texas.

[outer minnow]

communism with STATE CONTROL

[subtle magnet]

They don't. But I lived in Germany for a long time and they have it there.

[pallid roost]

Doesn't matter, just smile and then your ramen price will drop down

[flint fog]

Because God have given us free will, we do good and bad, it is not that god is forcing us

[subtle magnet]

What free will? You're still controlled by economics

[pallid roost]

If that's the case, God screwed up, nothing good comes from that, will isn't free, and good and bad is simply just better excuse and poor excuse

[stone ferry]

Vibes in here are awful. Some of yall need to take it elsewhere or act like adults.

[pallid roost]

No seriously... That would just mean, God screwed up, by whatever definition you associated him with

[flint fog]

You can say that but that isn't true

[verbal quest]

I'm surprised they have it in Germany
it wasn't even that widespread in the US initially
but I guess their rapid expansion was more than I realized

[dense ravine]

And I’m arguing that decision is morally wrong because he gave us the capacity to suffer. Under a utilitarian morality this is wrong. Do you acknowledge this at least?

[pallid roost]

I don't care, God doesn't do things humans can do and beyond that, why should I trust him?

You see my point?

[subtle magnet]

Only the major cities in Germany have it, but that's quite a few anyways. And they usually have multiple outlets in these cities.

[umbral ocean]

Also, why are you guys trying to disprove God? That's literally logically the opposite

[flint fog]

No, why is he wrong if we do wrong

[dense ravine]

I’m not

[pallid roost]

Call me devilish if you must, or pretend to forgive for my ignorance or whatever, but I don't think the God as many defined are as great but neither evil. I think he's just a heck of a celestial irresponsibility.

[stone ferry]

this feels needlessly combative

[dense ravine]

Because he gave us the power to do wrong

[umbral ocean]

No, those arguing against you.

[verbal quest]

do the international Five Guys still do the free peanuts

[dense ravine]

It is wrong to give a suicidal person a knife, no?

[flint fog]

So what do you mean we can do good as well

[flint fog]

It is wrong

[pallid roost]

Maybe I spoke too harshly, I meant to say whatever it is they believe in, it's become more of an excuse as word rather than action to prove it.

[foggy meadow]

Most basic of debates, 2bf.

[dense ravine]

If humanity is inherently sinful, and will cause suffering, giving us free will is like handing us the knife with which we impale ourselves

[subtle magnet]

Germany, yes.

[hidden isle]

move to #chill

[subtle magnet]

Idk. Franchising and economics is more serious than the endless religious preaching don't you think?

[dense ravine]

The act of creating evil is evil itself

[flint fog]

We can do good as well

[pallid roost]

Preaching is why economics keep running elsewhere, beautiful things are continuously built, cuz people got interested and thus value it.

[verbal quest]

Five Guys marketing and customer service tactics is a serious conversation
and at least it's verifiable

[stone ferry]

oh. now I get it. you got your politics from Tokyo Ghoul

[flint fog]

God didn't create evil, he created humans with the power and understanding to choose what is right and what is wrong

[dense ravine]

Sure, we can, but no good parent would let their child have the option to harm themselves

[dense ravine]

But god created everything?

[stone ferry]

Anyways, the religion conversation is going nowhere and at this point it just sounds like you three trying to dunk on each other for fun.

[dense ravine]

Or is god not truly omnipotent?

[pallid roost]

This is not fun..

[stone ferry]

I'm going to say this is a good time to chill out

[flint fog]

What do you mean by evil

[dense ravine]

Those with the intent to cause others to suffer

[dull socket]

why did god give humans the capabilityy to choose what is wrong?

[flint fog]

To test humans

[pallid roost]

Y'know, why not just simply say, God created the Universe, humans explore it, whether good/bad

Then get on with it.

[subtle magnet]

https://youtu.be/FcJOJ-CgDlg?t=50&si=w7OBs9S0-dw7qeZr

[flint fog]

They also have free will

[outer minnow]

what if god was supposed to vs hacker after all

in the beginning, noob vs pro vs god vs hacker

[stone ferry]

#chill

[pallid roost]

How's YT shorts nowadays?

[dense ravine]

Sure, but a truly good omnipotent god wouldn’t allow them to cause harm in the first place

[pallid roost]

No actually we can use argument from social media influence for serving similar mechanism which religions used to preach

[outer minnow]

sorry but someone is watching

[subtle magnet]

Because it's not testable.

[dull socket]

he created humans by himself, so he should know everything about humans because he is the most intelligent. so what is there to test? if you give something capability to do wrong it will do wrong

[flint fog]

God is testing us by giving free will

[dull socket]

what is he testing

[pallid roost]

Cuz see there are people also saying some celebrities/influencers are treated like Gods, you see my point?

It can be whatever figure you want it to be as long as it has anything of basic human need to.. be happy about

[dense ravine]

So either god is good but not truly omnipotent, or god is omnipotent and therefore at some point did something that wasn’t a moral good

[subtle magnet]

So. We are basically a prototype made by some guy who you claim is perfection in and of itself but still couldn't make the perfect product?

[flint fog]

Like following his commands and worshipping him alone

[flint fog]

Not some guy

[dense ravine]

For what purpose?

[subtle magnet]

Then how do you know it's a "He"

[verbal quest]

like when the prof cancels class for a week to go to Vegas
and assigns optional readings while they're gone

[pallid roost]

Would be cool film tho, angels lookout for humans like merchandises as some part of celestial quantitative studies of limits of Universe, then executive report to God

[flint fog]

To go to either heaven or hell by doing good and by worshipping him we go to heaven

[dull socket]

ok and? whats the point? if he made a defective product he should punish himself

[subtle magnet]

Pretty much the content of Elliott's dialogue in Mr. Robot.

[thorn wren]

Tbh the western idea of god as a sentient being who created humans for questionable reasons like to worship them is kinda cringe. I like the taoist-esque idea of god as just the non-sentient universe/natural order of things that we all should try and follow.

[pallid roost]

Then hell/heaven is just state of overall success by lumping many 'celestial variables' together

1 heaven -1 hell, vice versa

[flint fog]

What do you mean by defective product, are all humans bad?

[dull socket]

some are, and he made those few so he should punish himself

[dense ravine]

So he created humans and then gave them the ability to hurt and feel pain, pleasure, etc… Then is testing them and will condemn some to eternal suffering. How is this morally good if a moral good is to reduce suffering?

[pallid roost]

Except God doesn't which... Doesn't make you feel like he's irresponsible?

If he exists that way

[dull salmon]

This place is embarrassing. Please seek employment.

[subtle magnet]

Debatable whether you can call the Taoist thing an idea of God. It seems more spiritual.

[flint fog]

We choose right or wrong on earth but on the judgement day he would punish those bad people by sending them to hell

[verbal quest]

your name is in conflict with your ideology

[dull socket]

still waiting for the day to com ebuddy

[pallid roost]

They are employed, as inspirers/enthusiasts. /j

[subtle magnet]

We were just thinking of Five Guys for the same but one of the folks here didn't like the job talk.

[pallid roost]

Oh sorry I mean, *self-employed

Wow, so responsible and hardworking

[outer minnow]

ultraproduct137 has spoken all further discussions will be halted

[shadow mauve]

Full-Time Unpaid Mathcord Interns*

[pallid roost]

Unlike defective products

[dull socket]

---------end of chat ----------

[subtle magnet]

https://tenor.com/view/kuiil-have-spoken-mandalorian-star-wars-gif-15566834

[flint fog]

He is not forcing people to do wrong

[verbal quest]

I'm blaming you when they become missionaries

[dull socket]

didnt work

[stone ferry]

only works if you're dami

[pallid roost]

What if we give them a goal to resurrect dead people without killing anyone?

[subtle magnet]

Nah. Forever virgins.

[pallid roost]

They'd go on forever trying it and maybe help discovering weird things along the way

[outer minnow]

anyways lets talk about human rights problem in chinese autonomous zones

[dull salmon]

Not that kind of missionary.

[thorn wren]

I mean I say taoist-esque because I'm directly inspired by the concept of the tao here, altho many sects of taoism do also believe in a panthenon of gods

[pallid roost]

K? You mentioned drones delivering food, literally?

[dense ravine]

But he gave them the capacity

[shadow mauve]

Like the uyghurs?

[outer minnow]

yeah they deliver food to your place using drones

with fiber optic wires, this will prevent jamming

[pallid roost]

How much more expensive than cost of food itself?

[outer minnow]

expensive but minus the personnel cost of a deliveryperson

[dull salmon]

Let me in. This is my neighborhood.

[outer minnow]

make a drone and replace a deliveryperson for like months? Before it needs repairing

[flint fog]

So it doesn't mean that the person can't choose right

[subtle magnet]

When you cannot take the position of a missionary, you must become a missionary.

[pallid roost]

No ofc minus those cuz it's drone itself, ye?
I wanna know like, % of drone cost relative to food's

[outer minnow]

look

drone delivers food to your place

its futuristic

[stone ferry]

Phrasing.

[dense ravine]

Sure they choose, and if they do they are just as guilty as the god who created them.

[outer minnow]

the america they dont have that because they struggle with employment so they give freelance deliveryperson job to bike riders

[pallid roost]

yes, futuristic nice, more efficient, reduce workload, overall cost of investment reduced

[outer minnow]

in china everyone has a purpose so they make drones to deliver food

[pallid roost]

People's life is more convenient, they can cut cost off that to do something else, long-term is good

Ok fine, I'll search up myself

But ye, it's okay, futuristic alright

[outer minnow]

alongside with that

FIBER OPTIC WIRES

[pallid roost]

Cuz at first what I meant was, if it's say like 40-60% more expensive than food itself, I might wanna walk around have nice sightseeing experience, buy many things to stock for like weeks in one go rather than... Paying for the drones

[flint fog]

Al-Rahman & Al-Rahim — The Most Gracious, the Most Merciful
Al-Malik — The Sovereign/King of all existence
Al-Quddus — The Holy, free from all imperfection
Al-Aziz — The All-Mighty and Almighty
Al-Alim — The All-Knowing (omniscient)
Al-Qadir — The All-Powerful (omnipotent)
Al-Hayy — The Ever-Living, who does not die
Al-Qayyum — The Self-Sustaining, who sustains all creation
Al-Khaliq — The Creator of everything
Al-Razzaq — The Provider of all sustenance
Al-Ghafur — The Most Forgiving
Al-Wadud — The Most Loving
Al-Adl — The Perfectly Just

Some attributes of Allah

[pallid roost]

Unless they have like ceiling prices where they reduce % additional cost for drones, "buy more and you pay much less per quantity"

[shadow mauve]

I think its time to just let it go @flint fog The convo can barely stay on topic as is

[outer minnow]

in china its capitalism with state control

[flint fog]

K

[outer minnow]

people make drones in minimum wage to provide for companies

[pallid roost]

Then no problem

[outer minnow]

in america they do the same but with 30x prices

[dense ravine]

I fail to see your point

[pallid roost]

Dude, let it go

No point arguing anymore

[shadow mauve]

Im sure it could’ve been a good discussion but it just flopped when randoms jumped in imo

[outer minnow]

the point is, in china, food are being delivered to your place using drones, with fiber optic wires

[flint fog]

You can read the Qur'an, i'm not a scholar

[shadow mauve]

I think this chat went to 5 guys and delivery drones like 10 times already

[pallid roost]

So not the first time delivery drone's discussed rn?

oh man..

[shadow mauve]

Lowkey prob not

[pallid roost]

@outer minnow Ok then lemme say one thing, I have no problems with using tech to make people's life more convenient, but if they're gonna still play with currency which people gotta use it to buy basic needs?
Then it's just sacrificing more people for 'greater good long-term' which ofc, cost's gonna reduce since those 'minions' will help build it more.
I don't find this nice.

[subtle magnet]

Then avoid preaching it. If you can't explain it, then you don't know it. If you don't know it, you shouldn't believe it.

[pallid roost]

That is all, cuz I don't own the system, nor do I even get to 'touch and change' it that easily, so it's just a counter-perspective.

[outer minnow]

maybe i was wrong

[flint fog]

I don't know all things bro

[shadow mauve]

Density at its max

[pallid roost]

Idk, neither of us own the system.

[outer minnow]

kind, innocent, right and just

[shadow mauve]

L * W * H

[outer minnow]

im sorry my discord friend

[pallid roost]

Why are you apologizing?

[subtle magnet]

I am spherically symmetrical

[outer minnow]

i will stop talking about drones -- not because you are right but because i am wrong

[pallid roost]

Then that's your choice

Don't apologize to me

[outer minnow]

im feeling sorry for you

[subtle magnet]

And neither does a book

[flint fog]

Like providing deep explanation and to answer to all question

[pallid roost]

Even that, keep it to yourself, it's unnecessary to speak out

[flint fog]

Have you read it

[outer minnow]

sorry my discord companion

drones are one thing, humans are another

[pallid roost]

Anyways, let's see what else to discuss

[subtle magnet]

Like I said. You can't believe what you don't know well enough to explain.

[subtle magnet]

Nope. Never will.

Because I don't need my education on anything that doesn't have a shred of logic or evidence to it.

[flint fog]

I know well enough and I have researched to satisfy my curiosity but I am not a scholar that will know all small detail

[pallid roost]

I did ask him if he's willed to be good and explain well, I told him he failed the latter (explanation) part, look where we are now

[flint fog]

Read it then talk

[subtle magnet]

Like I said before, why should I read someone's hallucinations for no reason?

[flint fog]

Can you define what you mean by someone's hallucinations

[pallid roost]

Hm, let's discuss about awareness of living conditions.
@outer minnow Do you like what you eat or your body is tricked to like it?

[subtle magnet]

Who wrote the book?

[flint fog]

God

[subtle magnet]

Seriously?

[outer minnow]

sorry but im not qualified for serious discussions

[flint fog]

God sent verses and then the verses were assembled in a book and before that they were memorized

[pallid roost]

Oh well, you tried.

Thank you.

[subtle magnet]

I asked who wrote it

[outer minnow]

i love that you are trying to hear my opinion -- but this isnt a place to do so

[pallid roost]

I was gonna say, my answer is, I think it's more towards tricked to like it.
It's the body that metabolize it anyway, for you to (dis)like anything in the first place.
Whether or not you personally prefer anything, especially in spark of the moment, has less to do with how it physically affects you.

That's just the initiation, but the effect itself tied to memory of it, then it's more of the former.

[flint fog]

God is the author

[tall marsh]

people

[subtle magnet]

But he didn't write it

[outer minnow]

(im just tired of texting if you want to lets just call)

[subtle magnet]

I want to know who is the scribe. Not the author.

[flint fog]

He wrote that and you can read it

[subtle magnet]

He did not and history proves you wrong on this count already.

[tall marsh]

companions of the prophet (are you talking about the quran?)

[flint fog]

God sent verses to prophet Muhammad and then his companions memorized it and later they were assembled in a book

[tall marsh]

after death

[flint fog]

How history proves me wrong

[subtle magnet]

How are we supposed to believe God sent the verses? Because Muhammad said so?

[pallid roost]

Can't call right now, thx tho

[tall marsh]

mhm

[pallid roost]

Busy workplace

Procrastinating xP

[subtle magnet]

You yourself have said it now. The very human companions wrote the book

[flint fog]

Yes, Muhammad(SAW) was truthful and even non muslims of that time acknowledged it

[dull socket]

HOLY SHIT this is still going on

[pallid roost]

Wanna try playing Devil's Advocate?

[dull socket]

im good vro

[pallid roost]

kk lel

[flint fog]

They only memorized them and later it was assembled, the verse were sent by God so what's wrong

[pallid roost]

One of my pals said something like: "Gods taught humans, and humans write them"

[subtle magnet]

Acknowledgement doesn't mean fact. I can pay someone to acknowledge that I'm the new prophet.

[tall marsh]

thats what muslims believe

[flint fog]

Muhammad SAW was not rich

[dull socket]

how can you trust muhammad maybe he trained to look truthful

[subtle magnet]

I never asked who sent it. I only asked who wrote it.

[pallid roost]

So the question is, who are these "Gods?"

[flint fog]

All people of that time said it

[pallid roost]

Let's start basic

[tall marsh]

the same can be said about anly early scholar

[subtle magnet]

What did he SEE

[dull socket]

yeah how can you say that these people were not tricked by him

[subtle magnet]

Agreed. Pretty much why the academic publication system is flawed too.

[flint fog]

SAW short for salllalahu alaihi wasallam

[pallid roost]

The more this longs the more it seems like human nature of wanting to preserve history

[subtle magnet]

All people? Are you sure?

[tall marsh]

peace be upon him right?

[flint fog]

How can they be tricked if he was truthful

[dull socket]

how are you assuming that hes truthful? he might have tricked you too

[flint fog]

Yes people of his tribe and near the tribe, even those who were non muslim

[pallid roost]

That is fine, but one must be aware is it not necessarily correct, if failing to accept this then there's no line between fantasy or reality

[subtle magnet]

The Zoroastrians of Persia? The Vedic ppl of India? The Jews and the Christians and the polytheistic Vikings? All of them?

[flint fog]

Can you all read Qur'an and then talk

[tall marsh]

not every one - he had many enemies

[dull socket]

how can quran be truthful?

[flint fog]

No, even his enemies never said that he was liar

[tall marsh]

they did- his uncle for example

[pallid roost]

Btw, just curious, do you believe the innate power of natural human intuition, at its deepest fundamental level, is enough to gain much wisdom as Qur'ans, Bibles or any sacred texts intended to mediate?

[flint fog]

If you find any contradiction then we will talk

[flint fog]

NO

[tall marsh]

he disagreed with islam and his nephew

[flint fog]

No

[tall marsh]

right

[subtle magnet]

This brings me back to the same question once again. Why should I read one man's hallucinations written down by his friends to scam ppl?

[tall marsh]

correct me please

[dull socket]

you gave the contradiction yourself by saying god created rain which he didnt its a proccess called precipitation

[pallid roost]

I see. Then my "God" is different from yours.

[flint fog]

Have you read it

[subtle magnet]

You tell me why I should

[tall marsh]

no one is forcing islamic theology onto you

and they shouldnt

[flint fog]

You are saying that the book is hallucinations then prove it

[subtle magnet]

You're saying God told it to Muhammad. Burden of Proof is on you.

[pallid roost]

Ok see, religions can sometimes overstate presence of reality, but we shouldn't dismiss it entirely, it comes from human anyway so in a way the idea is the burden of understanding

[flint fog]

If you can't prove them don't say that those are hallucinations

[subtle magnet]

Simple fact of the matter is nobody has seen or heard from this so called God other than one person

[dull socket]

@flint fog no comment?

[pallid roost]

Cuz how to even prove what nobody can't understand correctly yet?

[tall marsh]

are you in any way religious? (if you don't mind me asking)

[pallid roost]

Reality created by this, owned by that, must be like this, defined this way, blah blah, etc.

[flint fog]

Find the contradictions or hallucinations as you say

[pallid roost]

If you're comfortable with it, fine, no problem, but there shouldn't be dismissal

[subtle magnet]

Absolutely not. Staunchly irreligious and atheist. Agnostic on the position of God's existence tho.

[flint fog]

After reading it

[pallid roost]

Or y'know why not just argue from perspectives of vibes and emotional interconnectedness

[flint fog]

Ok, i'm now going to study

[pallid roost]

Humans already like socializing want to be a part of some club

Or cult or community, whatever you call it

[subtle magnet]

I was raised religious tho. Across multiple ones tbf. I went to a convent school. My mother is a strongly devout Hindu follower of Shaktiism.

[dull socket]

@flint fog contradictions

Sun physically setting in a muddy spring (Q 18:86) – contradicts astronomy that the Sun does not “enter” a pool but moves in orbit.

Sun “going to a resting place” (Q 36:38) – clashes with modern knowledge that the Sun has no fixed “resting” location on Earth.

Everything created in pairs (Q 51:49) – ignores asexual organisms and many life forms that do not fit “male–female” pairing.

Ants “speaking” clearly (Q 27:18–19) – conflicts with biology showing ants communicate mainly by pheromones, not human‑like speech.

Mountains as “pegs” stabilizing Earth (e.g., Q 78:6–7) – disputed in light of plate tectonics, where mountains are by‑products of movement, not literal anchors.

Creation order: Earth vs. heavens – some verses imply Earth was created before heavens (Q 2:29), others imply the reverse (Q 41:9–12), which critics see as conflicting cosmology.

Understanding of embryology – critics argue some descriptions oversimplify or misplace stages compared to modern embryology.

Claiming humans cannot pierce the “firmament” (Q 55:33) – seen as contradicting space travel and modern rocketry if taken as a physical barrier.

[flint fog]

Context baby

[dense ravine]

I personally disagree with the content presented within it, even just from the quotes you have sent. But my beliefs are irrelevant to my attempts to understand how you create a worldview that does not suffer from the contradictions I see in it.

[tall marsh]

the translation isn't the same as the original script however.

[pallid roost]

Though if you think about it, if a person really has to believe in something, doesn't that tell about whatever that person is escaping from?

[vivid isle]

Yall talking about Holy Quran?

[flint fog]

Arabic is very complicated

[vivid isle]

Yh

[subtle magnet]

Study the Quran. Better for you.

[tall marsh]

mhm

[dull socket]

https://en.muktomona.com/posts/2008/12-20-quranic-erroneous-science-and-contradictions
https://explore-islam.com/6-common-scientific-errors-in-the-quran/
https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion/comments/1mtitil/50_scientific_errors_in_quran_and_hadith/

[flint fog]

I have already studied it

[subtle magnet]

Study it more. We need more ppl like you lol

[flint fog]

You acn't just throw random bunch of links

[dense ravine]

Agreed

[dull socket]

i dont own an quran gng open it and check

[vivid isle]

Arabic is the hardest langage if u put 1 dot above a letter it will change the whole meaning but somehow it never changed

[subtle magnet]

The only sensible thing he's said so far tbf.

[flint fog]

I have studied it man

[pallid roost]

I'm curious, what is that one major thing you find people misinterpret a lot off Qur'an when it's supposed to mean otherwise?

[tall marsh]

not really

[dull socket]

well do those contradictions sound familiar

[subtle magnet]

Too many dialects too.

[flint fog]

Sun setting in muddy spring, when it is talking about dhulqarnain's perspective like we say that sun is setting but it doesn't actually sets

[vivid isle]

I studied arabic i mean it has hundereds of accents for each country that people barely even understand and formal

[tall marsh]

the tenses also mess with translation, however.

[vivid isle]

Like syrian people dont understand algerian

[pallid roost]

Just the feeling as if there is a sunset?

I need yes/no

[dull socket]

youre saying all the ones i sent are from translations?

[tall marsh]

its a poetic lang and book.

[flint fog]

Yes

[tall marsh]

nope

[pallid roost]

Ye that's what I'm getting at

[vivid isle]

Its not poetic lang

[pallid roost]

Since it's poetic like form of art, most of you guys shouldn't argue it from rational standpoint but interpretive form of wording

Tied to experiences mostly orienting over joy and suffering

[flint fog]

It is

[tall marsh]

early arabic is , in the quran

[dull socket]

man they will do anything but admit that religion is flawed but ignore it

[tall marsh]

thats what makes it hard to comprehend

[vivid isle]

Its writen in the Quran like that arabic is rich so it can be used in anything even poems i think

[flint fog]

True

[pallid roost]

I think the feeling is more like 'it's just art, why ask so much about it'

[subtle magnet]

Please. Go read some Urdu

[vivid isle]

Like quran focuses on the ryhme and on the deep meaning

[flint fog]

You can't just throw a random bunch of Verses our of context and say that the religion is flawed

[subtle magnet]

Or French

[dull socket]

yeah its just "art" that has a direct effect on war and numerous lives

[vivid isle]

French is nothing to arabic i studied french and no

[flint fog]

It is in Arabic

[subtle magnet]

All religions are flawed. The very idea of religion is.

[subtle magnet]

Bruh what?

[tall marsh]

arguably. but so is life.

[flint fog]

Read the Qur'an then prove it wrong by just saying you can't prove anything

[pallid roost]

Unfortunately ye, can't ignore that either, though on the bright side most of that is due to irresponsible unchecked desires.
So, being controllable materialistically, here Internet with nowadays 'keyboard wars' help buy time against real nuking shooting wars.

[subtle magnet]

Exactly why you shouldn't dogmatise how to live it.

[dull socket]

how else do i prove the flaws? study arabic and then study quran raw put multiple years into it?

[pallid roost]

Grudge remains but it won't grow any further, I hope

[flint fog]

All of the verses that you have provided can be proved wrong but I don't have much time

[subtle magnet]

Study a little about this thing called Burden of Proof. Maybe some statistics as well. Also logic and empirical evidence! Then come say the same thing using the stuff above.

[pallid roost]

Hm okay, one more thing I wanna try..

[vivid isle]

I can tell u guy some crazy verses if u want in meaning or ryhme

[flint fog]

You can seriously study the Qur'an and search about those contradictions as you say on yt

[dull socket]

how else do you prove a "factual statement" wrong? without playing around with the wording and justify it someway

[tall marsh]

you have to for a lang without word-word crossovers, I guess, to defend a point.

[subtle magnet]

Provide an irrefutable counter example

[flint fog]

Arabic is complicated, some of the verses that you have provided can be proved wrong by just reading the previous one or the context

Ok I'm now going to study lol

[vivid isle]

Ur knowledge student?

[pallid roost]

One more question. @flint fog Supposed Qur'an contains much inspirational art ascribing off beauty in this reality (like for any sacred text by their linguistic interpretations respectively), would astrology have shown much strength in its relation for predicting social behaviors through gaits & moods, all of which both depend on (thus shaped by) human perception anyway and shouldn't be dismissive against another in belief systems?

[dull socket]

no i dont get it how am i supposed to give you guys an arabic statement without studying arabic? if i gave you a translation you will say its obviously false

[subtle magnet]

I can't believe this is even a discussion on a server associated to a subject whose basis lies in logic and power lies in its rigorous use.

[dense ravine]

Damn my goal was just to show that god does not follow a utilitarian moral scheme.

[flint fog]

Can I send some beautiful Qur'anic verses if you want

[dull socket]

quran says ants can speak? is that true @tall marsh

[pallid roost]

No, not asking for verses, just wanna know, if sacred texts like Qur'an is much valued as a form of art, can astrology be as much value for its tact? When both involve believing anyway.

[flint fog]

"And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than his jugular vein." — (Surah Qaf 50:16)

[tall marsh]

I mean they communicate

[flint fog]

"Did you think that We created you without purpose, and that you would not be returned to Us?" — (Surah Al-Muminun

"Say: O My servants who have transgressed against themselves — do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful." — (Surah Az-Zumar 39:53)

[pallid roost]

The questions remained unanswered...

But I have an answer of my own, I wanna hear your thoughts.

[flint fog]

"Then which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?" — (Surah Ar-Rahman 55:13)

[vivid isle]

Bruh there countless quran verses saying stuff that are still being discovered and i even remmeber some that was discovered today

Like in 2026

[flint fog]

"And they ask you about the soul. Say: The soul is of the affair of my Lord. And you have not been given of knowledge except a little." — (Surah Al-Isra 17:85)

"Verily, in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find rest." — (Surah Ar-Ra'd 13:28)

[dense ravine]

Alright, let’s start over, who here agrees that the morality of an action should be determined by its ability to reduce human suffering and that not taking an action is an action itself?

[rocky shuttle]

What about 2:191?

[flint fog]

"Do they not look at the sky above them — how We have built it and adorned it, and there are no rifts in it?" — (Surah Qaf

"Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of night and day are signs for people of understanding." — (Surah Al-Imran 3:190)

[pallid roost]

Or I can make a quote of my own, see:
"Countless lives sacrificed to no end, yet for neither both men nor women must engage, they as mortals prevail to rule by the force of their mind, so against the nature mother Earth cries until truths no longer denied."

[dull socket]

can you explain this? "we" have built the sky?

[tall marsh]

God isn't male, or female, and is often we or he in the Qur'an

[flint fog]

We by majestic we or royal we

[dull socket]

i meant building the sky, how can you build the sky

[tall marsh]

what about 2:190?

[flint fog]

"And it is He who sends the winds as good tidings before His mercy, until when they have carried heavy clouds, We drive them to a dead land and We send down rain therein." — (Surah Al-Araf 7:57)

[vivid isle]

Bruh fun fact that when u here qursn in english it doesnt show the real feeling cuz it misses the ryhme it misses everything cuz quran is written in a averyyyyyyy spfic way that people couldnt write in altho it holds such insane meening and scientific information while keeping up with ryhme with how hard it is to keep track of arabic langauge its like yk how when u write a poem in english its hard to keep up in the meening but what if in the hardest langaugd what if it has meening that no world has that is used to find modern science and predicts future

[flint fog]

True

[dull socket]

apparently it has "قَالَتْ نَمْلَةٌ" meaning the ants "Spoke" as in using language

[dull socket]

what about "building" the sky

[vivid isle]

It even said that each human has a print in his finger that was different and this was discovered in the 19th centr by a german scientist

[flint fog]

"Do the disbelievers not see that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, then We separated them?" — (Surah Al-Anbiya 21:30)
Scientists discovered the Big Bang theory only in the 20th century

"And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed We are its expander." — (Surah Adh-Dhariyat 51:47)
The expansion of the universe was only confirmed by Edwin Hubble in 1929.

[dense ravine]

under a utilitarian moral scheme god is not universally good

[vivid isle]

Also in surah rahman there that sea and ocean dont combine which was also discovered lately

[flint fog]

"And We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" — (Surah Al-Anbiya 21:30)
Modern biology confirms that all life is water-based and life likely originated in water.

"We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him a drop of fluid in a safe lodging. Then We made the drop into a clinging clot, then We made the clot into a lump of flesh, then We made the lump into bones, then We covered the bones with flesh, then We produced him as another creature." — (Surah Al-Muminun 23:12-14)
This remarkably mirrors the stages of embryonic development discovered by modern science.

"He released the two seas meeting together. Between them is a barrier which they do not transgress." — (Surah Ar-Rahman 55:19-20)
Oceanographers have discovered that where two seas meet, there is a physical barrier — each sea maintains its own temperature, salinity and density.

[vivid isle]

There is stillll muchhhhh moree

[flint fog]

"Or like darknesses within a deep sea — covered by waves, above which are waves, above which are clouds. Darknesses, some of them upon others. When one puts out his hand, he can hardly see it." — (Surah An-Nur 24:40)
Deep sea darkness and internal waves were only discovered with modern submarine technology.

[dense ravine]

Whenever we choose quotes we are cherry picking guys

[dull socket]

you can also interpret thatall embryonic development starts from clay which is false

[dense ravine]

Can we just stop

[flint fog]

"And We made the sky a protected ceiling, yet they turn away from its signs." — (Surah Al-Anbiya 21:32)
The atmosphere protects earth from harmful radiation, meteors and extreme temperatures — something science confirmed much later.

[pallid roost]

@flint fog Welp... I did not ask for your verses, yet you send them anyway, so here is how I interpret your answer to my question:
"Figment of our minds are as light as feather and as thin as films, playing like theatre so clouded in fumes of make-believe, for more the Archeons will forever cherish the joy much their Nils will succumb to teach the suffering of all."

[flint fog]

"And He has set up mountains in the earth so that it does not shake with you." — (Surah An-Nahl 16:15)
Geology confirms that mountains have deep roots that stabilize the earth's crust, like pegs.

[dense ravine]

Let’s discuss concepts not verses

[flint fog]

"It is He who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; each floating in an orbit." — (Surah Al-Anbiya 21:33)
The concept of celestial orbits was not properly understood until centuries after the Quran's revelation.

"He causes the night to enter upon the day and causes the day to enter upon the night." — (Surah Fatir 35:13)
The Arabic word used implies a gradual overlapping — consistent with a rotating spherical earth.

[dull socket]

if the sky is a "protected ceiling" we cannot just cross it how can you phase through a ceiling

[tall marsh]

proof is quite loose in a religious convo

[flint fog]

"And We sent down iron, in which there is great military might and benefits for the people." — (Surah Al-Hadid 57:25)
The Arabic word "anzalna" means "sent down from above." Modern science confirms that iron on earth came from meteorites and cosmic events — it was not formed on earth itself.

[vivid isle]

There one about that if u do s good thing you will habe a pattern of feeling and in 2025 physcologists has discovered that this pattern that was mentioned in the quran is correct

[dull socket]

true

[pallid roost]

Ye I put all that into my poem or so-called verse.

[flint fog]

"And We send the fertilizing winds, then cause the rain to descend from the sky." — (Surah Al-Hijr 15:22)
The Quran describes winds as fertilizing — modern meteorology confirms that winds carry water particles, causing clouds to form and produce rain.

"Does man think that We will not assemble his bones? Yes. We are able to proportion even his fingertips." — (Surah Al-Qiyamah 75:3-4)
The unique nature of fingerprints was only discovered in the 19th century. The Quran specifically mentions fingertips in the context of precise recreation.

[dull socket]

these verses can be interpreted in anyway its very vague and not definitive

[pallid roost]

How can one seek to teach another beauty if one ignores the mind of another?

[flint fog]

No

[vivid isle]

Bruh they are so definite wth

[dense ravine]

I’m trying to be a bit more rigorous, this whole discussion is happening because I wanted to argue that god doesn’t follow a utilitarian moral scheme

[vivid isle]

It litterly says we are closer to the human then his juglar vien

And that ocean and sea dont combine

As if there is a barrier

[pallid roost]

Can't we simply made our own?

[vivid isle]

Wnd that we made the human from water

[flint fog]

Read all the verses

[pallid roost]

If we truly yearn them as art, shouldn't we be able to do the same?

[dull socket]

no? man made of "clay", sky is a "protected ceiling" (but ofc the ceiling can be crossed hwo convenient)

[flint fog]

No, if you read Qur'an in Arabic then you would know that how much complicated it is

[pallid roost]

How can someone compliment the painting like absolute but has never painted?

[vivid isle]

Yh clay is made out of water and dirt

[tall marsh]

DNA is like a clay, in a sense

[flint fog]

He doesn't know basic

[dense ravine]

Not anything about the validity of religion or the validity of utilitarian morals, just showing that they are incompatible by contradiction, in a process like mathematical proof

[dense ravine]

That is a stretch

[tall marsh]

i'm aware

[flint fog]

"He knows what is within the heavens and earth and knows what you conceal and what you declare. And Allah is Knowing of that within the breasts." — (Surah At-Taghabun 64:4)

[vivid isle]

Surah Al-Hijr 15:26 & 28: "And indeed, We created man from sounding clay moulded from black mud" and "I am going to create a human being from sounding clay moulded from black mud".

[pallid roost]

But I don't just read off my poems with intonations nor the visualizations off it, I read it as interconnected mass of human interpretations, down to the figurative bodies of wording and the movements of the mind from the tongue.

Isn't that also complicated?

[flint fog]

Man, those verses are not poems

[dull socket]

why the word "clay" then? you could also use any other word in place of clay (like dirt or filth or even pigs) and by your logic anything can be true

[pallid roost]

They are poetic to me

[vivid isle]

Thing is you dont know how hard it is to write an arabic ryhme to even being able to have such a meaning at the same time

[pallid roost]

Even when you write poems, those lines are called verses, stacked into paragraphs called stanzas

That is much a fact by the way

[vivid isle]

At the end of the day the human is made out of clay whatever the word is used and that the thing is true

[flint fog]

"So have they not traveled through the earth and have hearts by which to reason and ears by which to hear? For indeed, it is not the eyes that are blind, but blind are the hearts which are within the breasts."
— (Surah Al-Hajj 22:46)

[pallid roost]

@flint fog There is a reason they are similarly worded

[vivid isle]

Nd this was written 1400years a go

[pallid roost]

Humans seek unification to diverse meaning

[dull socket]

you are just accepting the wording and interpreting the way its convenient for you then

[vivid isle]

Brother

[pallid roost]

Can't you see?

[flint fog]

Can you pls watch Arabic 101 on youtube

[vivid isle]

It litterky said humans are made out clay directly

I didnt change anything

Or understood in any way

[pallid roost]

No... For my poems mean nothing to you, there is no real meaning to be sought.

[flint fog]

Pls man, if you want to understand the Qur'an

[dull socket]

you went from clay -> basic particles -> humans
instead of clay -> humans sculpted from clay

[flint fog]

Our work is done to send the message now it is your responsibility to research and find the truth

[pallid roost]

My real purpose is to understand the abstract embodiment of religious texts themselves, not the Qur'an, not the Bible.

The pattern underneath which made those texts sacred

[tall marsh]

but was there a word 1400 years ago for chemicals or DNA

[pallid roost]

That is what I seek

And I have it in my mind

But I just need to confirm

And now you did help me confirm

[flint fog]

You are on the path of truth

[vivid isle]

How is. That that am reading it in a wrong way its litterly written like so

[dull socket]

oh damn so humankind should be very advanced by now if islam was so far ahead 1400 years ago

[flint fog]

Just check Arabic 101 as he explains Arabic

[vivid isle]

At the end of the day its correct and predjcts something nobody could which was that humans are mad elht of clay

[tall marsh]

why so condesending

[dull socket]

my bad that was not my intention

[pallid roost]

I have already reached the truth, but it will not rely on anything ever written off, I value a work much concise, refined, and exact, where natural interconnected meanings manifest as emergent abstract property not by enforcing subjective interpretations

[vivid isle]

Brother in 2026 till now they are using islam and Quran for science and they actually reached somewhere they dsivocered stuff in 2025 and 2026

Every small detail is for a reason

And there is over 6reads

And there is speed

And there is rules

[pallid roost]

@flint fog The question is, how far that truth stretches out, that is my next mission.
And sacred texts, whether Bible or Qur'an, is not sufficient for me to fulfill this mission.

[vivid isle]

Hundereds

[pallid roost]

But by exploring the limits of human intuition via abstract applications, is.

Such as, studying and doing math

[tall marsh]

lmk how you intend to fullfil it

[pallid roost]

Kind of answered it xD

[pallid roost]

.

[flint fog]

"Alhamdulillahi Rabbil Alameen"
Translated as: "All praise be to Allah, Lord of the worlds
"Alhamdulillah" — This single word contains an entire philosophy. "Al" means ALL, "hamd" means praise that is both spoken AND felt internally, given out of love AND reverence simultaneously. English has no single word for this. "Praise" is too shallow.
"Rabb" — Translated as "Lord" but Rabb actually means the One who creates, nurtures, sustains, develops and brings something to its perfection gradually — like a gardener tending a plant from seed to bloom. "Lord" captures none of this.
"Alameen" — Translated as "worlds" but actually means every realm of existence — humans, angels, jinn, animals, dimensions we know and don't know. Far beyond just "worlds."

[pallid roost]

What if I say, mathematics are a form of poem about the Universe, just more precise and complex?

Its rhythm based on operations that set each apart, and the constituent so numerical and symbolic each wiring our logic together

[tall marsh]

Al as ALL is a reach-

[pallid roost]

Would you then value mathematics as much as you value religion?

[flint fog]

Oh

[flint fog]

In the end we will go back to our god, so we should do good deeds

[tall marsh]

yup.it is a system of reasoning

[pallid roost]

Whether or not that is so, one thing is for sure, let me tell you.
We all decide where we belong, whether it's God, Void, Archeon, Nil, vice versa, anything anywhere with anyone

[flint fog]

"Ar-Rahman — Allamal Quran"
Translated as: "The Most Merciful — taught the Quran"
"Ar-Rahman" — has no equivalent in any language. It comes from "Rahm" meaning womb — implying a mercy that is warm, enveloping, unconditional and deeply intimate like a mother's womb protecting a child. "Most Merciful" is a pale shadow of this.
"Allama" — translated as "taught" but means to teach with deep, thorough, comprehensive understanding — not just surface instruction. It implies the knowledge was embedded into the very soul.

[pallid roost]

I believe the most beautiful form of nature need not to be written nor spoken,

it is simply there for you to witness, in silence and tranquility

[flint fog]

I am inviting you to read Qur'an

[pallid roost]

I've read parts which made me feel enough

It's the feeling that matters, for me at least

I don't need anymore than that.

[flint fog]

Read till the end

[pallid roost]

Can you agree on one thing?

[flint fog]

Yes feelings are important

[pallid roost]

Not that, not what I'm exactly getting at

Can you agree that any form of art has no beginning nor end but rather exist as experience cherished, much as felt in complex ways?

My minds won't change, just need a yes/no.

[flint fog]

No

[pallid roost]

I see

[tall marsh]

yes

[pallid roost]

Ah. I see. xD

That speaks enough for itself.

[restive elbow]

hello folks

Nice to be back

[pallid roost]

Oh! Good timing

[flint fog]

I didn't understood it completely

[tall marsh]

an undestanding of any art form would let you experience any spectrum of emotions

[pallid roost]

You will, someday

[restive elbow]

ayo what you doing here lol

[pallid roost]

Playing Devil's Advocate on religious perspectives xD

[flint fog]

Man can you explain in simpler terms pls

[pallid roost]

Planning on up-lvl math later

[restive elbow]

lol what

[pallid roost]

Even with Qur'an, you still seek my truth?

Trust me, it is there somewhere

[subtle magnet]

This is still going on?

[last rose]

playing devil's advocate is generally discouraged

[pallid roost]

Almost done!

[restive elbow]

ayo limit yo religious talk lmao, you might get banned

[pallid roost]

I can understand why, it ends well though, for this.

[restive elbow]

yes, unfortunately my 23 Yr old friend right there is unemployed

[pallid roost]

Yeah ::::::(

[subtle magnet]

https://tenor.com/view/daredevil-okay-its-okay-gif-18208817

[pallid roost]

Gib j*b pls

[flint fog]

Quran is the word of god and I don't see anyone more wise than him

[pallid roost]

Yeah I understand.

[restive elbow]

hell nah

[flint fog]

End of the debate

[subtle magnet]

Prove that it is the word of God my man and then I'll agree and convert to Islam

[flint fog]

Bye

[pallid roost]

Bye

Eyyy it ends well, see? xD

[flint fog]

Read it

[subtle magnet]

I can't believe you. I'll only believe God, if he dares.

[subtle magnet]

Prove what you are saying.

[pallid roost]

@restive elbow Ez public relations 101

[restive elbow]

I’d have a deeper conversation with you but since this is a math server, it’s probably not the right place. For what it’s worth, I’m an atheist

[subtle magnet]

And I'll read it.

[cold needle]

this is a serious discussion

ohoho

[restive elbow]

lol

[subtle magnet]

I wish. It's been cockamammie for a while

[pallid roost]

You missed da party

[cold needle]

its ok

[pallid roost]

Man, was never this fun since being a TA

[last rose]

it sometimes bothers me how imprecise the term atheism is

[pallid roost]

HAHAHA

Or prized piano competition

[verbal quest]

it was like AO3 with less nuance for hours in here