serious-discussion

[lone flower]

He got multiple arguments...

[silent junco]

its a pretty similar philosophy to secular humanism

[patent yacht]

I'm confused what are y'all talking, are ya trying to prove god mathemathically, could somebody lend me a hand I can't get y'all

[silent junco]

no we arent proving god mathematically, thats nonsense

[crimson junco]

2+2=5

[silent junco]

#chill

[patent yacht]

Oh so in what way are y'all discussing things abt GOD cuz I ain't getting nothing

[zealous garden]

Proof of God: if there were a way to prove God exists, believing in God would not require faith, so God would patch the proof out of maths in the next update

There is no way to prove God exists, therefore God patched it out, therefore God exists

[silent junco]

we're discussing various arguments for/against the existence of god

[lone flower]

cuz be rank smth on a scale doesnt meant he top of that scale exist as a real entity. He treats abstract values as if they were physical properties. Assumes that for a human to be good they must be participating in some reservior of goodness. At least the two obvious ones easily found

[patent yacht]

Oh the guy's using encyclopaedia words I can't get him thanks I'll try to understand 🤧

[zealous garden]

Lmfao

"Encyclopedia words"

[bright hill]

Didn't Gödel do this once?

[silent junco]

even if theres a coherent argument here, its unfortunately lost in a poor command of the english language.

[silent junco]

yeah lol it was kinda stupid

none of us are immune to brainworms

[lone flower]

🐴

[vernal silo]

He compiled a set of 5 arguments for the existence of the Christian God and its attributes. THe first way is first establishing the existence of a certain notion of God

[zealous garden]

I'm partial to the idea that God is whatever consciousness comes from

[lone flower]

yes and that assumes certain axioms that are irrational in the first place. I mean e.g. platons epistemology is logically perfectly sound if you assume a ton of things, doing so is irrational though

[zealous garden]

Of course, this doesn't give you any useful properties or dictates about God

[silent junco]

i mean you can define "god" to be literally anything (e.g. a la spinoza or wtv)

[zealous garden]

God is a woman that will never leave me
[The day wraithlord became a gnostic atheist]

[teal edge]

nobody fw spinoza like I do

[silent junco]

i mean your premise is literally that existence of god is "irrational". but how do you talk about any kind of rationality without making these sorts of assumptions?

[teal edge]

I'm not sure why Aquinas is being cited because every single argument of his got debunked, that's why the Scolastica ended

that and Occam

[zealous garden]

You can't reject God without assuming a bunch of things that are irrational

[teal edge]

well at least ideologically

[zealous garden]

You can argue against many very particular notions of God, sure

[teal edge]

you can universally assume that there is a rational explanation for everything and also reject the notion of a god

[zealous garden]

Like God can't be all powerful, all good, and all knowing simultaneously

[zealous garden]

How do you reject the notion of God

You literally just said assume you reject the notion of God

Irrational ass

[teal edge]

because god is not the most rational explanation to things

[zealous garden]

Looking like a pi, no cutie

[zealous garden]

And? Not everything happens for superbly rational reasons

[teal edge]

But this has been the case for all of history

All knowledge and events were attributable to God until we found out they're not

[lone flower]

Its a false equivalence. You can call a car "broken" because the engine wont strat, you dont need an axiom of brokenness to recognize that a car isnt moving.

[zealous garden]

Except people still attribute those things to God.

[teal edge]

well there's two kinds of people
those who attribute the causes of the events to God and those who attribute the event to God

[zealous garden]

Yeah you do, you need to have a defined proper functioning of the car

That's your "axiom of brokenness"

[teal edge]

the first will go up the chain probably once science finds out that those causes are again Not God

[zealous garden]

Wrong

Just flat out wrong

As the first kind of person, that is not the conclusion we reach

[lone flower]

Thats a functional definition you cant quite set it equal to a philosophical axiom

[zealous garden]

The conclusion we reach is that God is the fact that there is a logical chain of events progressing towards this event

[teal edge]

to the second I say maybe let's pick up a book 😭 you can choose to attribute causes to God and be like "Yeah God chose to create the Hurricane" but when you're like "yeah god makes hurricanes" I'd say you're wrong

[zealous garden]

God is responsible for the entire chain

[teal edge]

but science disproves this

we know why rainbows happen

[zealous garden]

God makes things do things, why assume that just because the laws of physics aren't violated that it wasnt God?

[teal edge]

and we know why rain happens

[zealous garden]

That's irrational

[teal edge]

we know how the sun works mostly

it's a matter of going up the chain, finding the one thing we don't know and calling it God

[zealous garden]

No it doesn't.

Science makes no positive or negative claims about the existence or influence of God

And scientifically aware religiously minded people tend to posit that God acts through the laws of physics

[teal edge]

okay but what makes that explanation more rational than "It is what it is"

[zealous garden]

A particularly gnostic thought is that maths stems directly from God, or even that God is math (eternal, "perfect", controls everything)

So of course, the laws of physics and cause and effect, the literal word of God, makes sense and has a through line

It would be demonic if you couldn't follow the chain

Not saying this proves God, but you're definitively wrong in saying it disproves God

[teal edge]

but again what makes this any more rational than rejecting this whole thing and accepting the easier, less convulted and non metaphysical explanation

[zealous garden]

It attaches constraints to the nature of God

[zealous garden]

Because you don't actually have any answers for the metaphysical questions, you aren't assuming a more rational answer, you are just refusing to postulate

[vernal silo]

Debunked is a strong word

Heavily debated, yes. But Im not sure if it's possible to debunk a certain metaphysical framework

[zealous garden]

The entire chain is God

Clock and clockmaker, does the clock have no maker just because it operates on its own after it was built?

Irrational conclusion

Even worse, wrong conclusion

[vernal silo]

Ngl that's a shit analogy, no offense

[teal edge]

idk it seems that following this logic I myself can come up with any sort of explanation, attribute it metaphysical meaning and call that an equally rational explanation of the universe

[lone flower]

Like I said this assumes a set of axioms. e.g. "NOthing can be the cause of itself" This assuems that causality is a universal, unreakable law that applies to everything. Modenr physcis, specifically quatnm mechanics, suggest that some subatomic events may happen without a "cause" at leas tin the traditional sense.
Next axiom," In a seris of efficient causes, it is impossible to proceed to infinity".
Another axiom "There must be an explanation (a 'why') for the existence of everything that exists and for every positive fact." Existentialist e.g. Bertrand Russel argue that the universe might just be a fact and doesnt owe us an explanation

Theres a few more but you see the issue?

[teal edge]

but that's silly

[vivid isle]

Hello

[vernal silo]

I mean I agree with you, but not for this reason

[zealous garden]

Actually it's great. Because the clock continues to act, in perfect accordance with the whims of the clockmaker.

Despite the clock maker not continuing to be an observed cause

[teal edge]

I'm not necessarily implying that rejecting God is logically necessary im saying that the opposite is definitely also untrue, and that since you can't prove something I'd rather believe in it not being true

[vivid isle]

I would like to have some academic advising involving my highschool freshman years and i would like to habe your guys opinion based on your knowledge and i would love to have nice advices if anyone is interested in helping tell me so i can get in detail

Also can u guys pls talk about these stuff involving religion in a chat other than this pls

[lone flower]

no thats pretty stupid

lol

[teal edge]

bad news

[heavy pagoda]

is this chat new

i dont remember this being here

[vivid isle]

I think they renamed disc2

[heavy pagoda]

oh wait this used to be discussion 2

yeah i forgot theres a changelog lol

[vernal silo]

I believe if a belief in a certain notion or interpretation of God has neither a pragmatic or epistemic effect on humanity then it's indistinguishable from nonexistence

[bright hill]

LMFAO

[teal edge]

I'm crying

[stoic tusk]

oml

[teal edge]

let's move to #chill

[stoic tusk]

;-;

[bright hill]

Inb4 serious-but-not-too- serious-discussion

[silent junco]

lol. you have a contract with the car via a certain set of expectations you have from the car contingent on certain behaviors from you. "brokenness" means this contract isnt fulfilled. but you still need an axiom that says that you can expect the contract to be fulfilled, i.e. you can expect the car to behave a certain way. this axiom comes from empirical data: you have observed how cars operate all your life. if youre a toddler seeing a car for the first time in your life, the car could start flying for all you know.

[teal edge]

tombfoolish-discussion

[rocky shuttle]

Is there a — role for #serious-discussion?

[stoic tusk]

i should sleep

[verbal monolith]

anything but reading the channel description

[stoic tusk]

its midnight

[teal edge]

probably a timeout

[silent junco]

if such a role existed, it would remain undisclosed for the time being

[lone flower]

engineer ass mindset

[stoic tusk]

so it exists

[silent junco]

but yeah timeout is the tentative measure

[verbal monolith]

is it possible to enable/disable access to the channel other then through the studying role?

[silent junco]

you can just hide it from your channel list

[bright hill]

You can mute and hide it

[verbal monolith]

ahh true, didn’t think of that

[teal edge]

personally I go stricter and remove both requirements 😭 I don't think humanity requires this kind of crutch anymore is all

or maybe it does but nietzsche was lowkey right

[stoic tusk]

wjwnnsnenwnwnwhehi

[teal edge]

it's time to adapt

[stoic tusk]

gn

a

[teal edge]

you're not getting S dash bro

[stoic tusk]

s dash?

what is s dash

[teal edge]

it's in the works

pay no mind to it

[stoic tusk]

k

[vivid isle]

Bruh i give up

[stoic tusk]

ima take a screenshot to forget about it later

[lone flower]

omg are you saying axiom comes form empirical data?

[bright hill]

is that surprising, what

[silent junco]

well your crude understanding of "axiom" is just stuff we know from empirical data. if im being pedantic, none of what you described as an "axiom" really is one.

[ocean harbor]

series discussion

[lone flower]

what have I described as an axiom?

[ocean harbor]

serious

[lone flower]

well yeah its frickign impossible by defintion what am I even arguing here wtf

[bright hill]

I ain't gonna lie, I already hate this channel, since this started no one has wasted an opportunity to call the other stupid lmao

[thorn wren]

[vernal silo]

Well if the hypothetical existence does actually have an effect then it's a different story

[ocean harbor]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1484564040666710189.webp?size=80&animated=true

[foggy jetty]

Wasn't it #discussion-2

[thorn wren]

Eh the user base is bored and we gave them something they can talk about. They will of course capitalise on that, and praising the moderation team is not really a great way to get popular

[hushed rivet]

All serious channels are doomed to become like this

[lone flower]

yall are dumb, Im smart. Glad we clarified that now

[ocean harbor]

yes

[undone imp]

it is just renamed

[bright hill]

You jest but that's the general tone I'm getting from your messages lmao

[teal edge]

it means it's working, containment has started

[hushed rivet]

Mods are playing 6D chess with us

[ocean harbor]

ill go back to obsidan

[rustic mountain]

start a sirius discussion

[brazen crest]

God is real and he speaks

[lone flower]

I am god

[vernal silo]

Would playing devil's advocate go against the "good faith" rule?

If made clear

[brazen crest]

Maybe you are

[lone flower]

🐴

[teal edge]

Not to play devils advocate but, [The Worst Sentence of All Time]

Not to play devil's advocate — but I don't think you're crazy, you're just original!

[thorn wren]

Yes, so we generally don't want people playing devil's advocate. There's alternative ways to phrase these kinds of arguments that don't end up with us getting "no you can't ban me I wasn't being transphobic I was just playing devil's advocate"

[lone flower]

How about: Some people might say

[rustic mountain]

now that hormuz has opened its time to move towards canada

[thorn wren]

I think a good way of phrasing this is "it should be clear at all times what position you're advocating for"

[verbal monolith]

!nоai

[thorn wren]

there is also a level of that's in there to stop someone coming in here and trolling and going "im not actually a chud I just wanted to ragebait"

[teal edge]

👀

funny edit

[rustic mountain]

wonder what rays has been typing

[thorn wren]

On a practical level, this server has a leftist slant so the pre edit message was correct in that that's what'll happen, but then I remembered people screenshot my rules clarifying messages to share with people apparently

[timid zenith]

Foxxe why are you here

[silent junco]

i think you have some fundamental misunderstandings about epistemological concepts that need to be clarified before we can have a productive discussion about this. it is by no means given "by definition" that axioms cannot come from empirical observation. implicit in this claim is the assumption that axioms exist a priori, which is by no means trivial or self evident and is the subject of serious philosophical debate to this day (keyword here is apriorism).

[true zinc]

Fwiw I've already done that

[silent junco]

in fact, the point you made earlier about causality is like the canonical example of an apriorist argument (kant used apriorism to justify causality)

[lone flower]

youre mixing stuff up. Apriorism is just the arugment that human can know anything without experiencing it first. Thats a deabte about the nature of the human brain, not about the efiniton of a logical axiom.

I mean u can certainly try to derive axioms through empirical data but thats not the point

what youre describing is induction. We only know a car is "broken" because we have past empirical data of cars working. A toddler wouldn't know the car is broken because they don't have that baseline expectation.

[hidden isle]

why is ts serious discussion

[grim torrent]

wait

[lone flower]

you called this observation an axiom

[grim torrent]

OH MY GOD YAYYYY

wait

[hushed rivet]

Lance decided to exile political discussions here

[grim torrent]

NO WTF

[rocky shuttle]

[grim torrent]

why is this a political discussion chat

i thought this was serious discussion

[hushed rivet]

Or just read #changelog and #1163339826003710022

[hidden isle]

the fact its called serious discussion makes this feel unserious

[sleek wing]

Why so serious 😂🤙

[grim torrent]

^^^

[grim torrent]

https://tenor.com/view/joker-batman-the-joker-why-so-serious-gif-14263650074740919861

[rocky shuttle]

serious/heavy topics, such as religion or politics

[grim torrent]

@moder ators he is not being serious

[silent junco]

our discussion was literally about the epistemic nature of axioms themselves. in that context, you were assuming an apriorist conception of axiomatic thinking. if the discussion were about the axioms of the argument itself then this message would make sense. its a bit of a subtle point so i dont blame you for missing it.

[grim torrent]

oops there is serious discussy going on

Respects the Seriousness of this conversation and leaves

[silent junco]

#chill

[vernal silo]

Well that's not the same

Devil's advocate is more so "Well, to be fair, let's consider side Y as opposed to X"

[silent junco]

in general you should always operate in here as though there is a serious discussion going on, even if there isnt

[hidden isle]

son

[rocky shuttle]

I liked #discussion-2 for the slower paced non-restrictive discussions

[grim torrent]

wait discussion 2 is gone?

[silent junco]

should have brought it up when it was an active meta thread

[rocky shuttle]

[grim torrent]

[hidden isle]

i swear people did

[sleek wing]

I just think this channel is going to be impossible to police

[hushed rivet]

Now the only option is civil disobedience 😔

[fresh comet]

my only suggestion is that this channel might've been better off being called "serious-topics" or the like instead

[vernal silo]

#chill

[thorn wren]

You are of course encouraged to raise this via meta or modmail

[fresh comet]

users are bound to take it less seriously because of its name

[thorn wren]

We appreciate feedback

[silent junco]

well the ones doing the policing will be the ones deciding that

[hidden isle]

enter georgia state police

[lone flower]

instead of admitting you completely misused the word axiom earlier with the car analogy ur acting im not philosophical enough to grasp this meta level ur talking about lol

[vernal silo]

@thorn wren thoughts?

[silent junco]

the projection is crazy. anyway this clearly isnt going anywhere so im not interested in engaging anymore

[visual sphinx]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH I AM BEING SO SERIOUSRIGHT NOW says serious things AHHHHHHHHHHH

[thorn wren]

My thoughts are that's not really how arguments work on the internet, as you're assuming people act rationally, when as a moderator of this server, they do not

[silent junco]

#chill

[grim torrent]

did discussion-2 get nuked or archived

[thorn wren]

People are more likely to just start spouting arguments from the perspective they oppose and larp as someone holding the opposite view

[thorn wren]

It got renamed

[hushed rivet]

It got renamed into this

[vernal silo]

Ah, sad

But in the off chance it does actually end up being a civilized rational argument then context makes clear what s acceptable and not, right?

[grim torrent]

...

[thorn wren]

If it's clear from context and we don't have people going ahead and playing devils advocate for neonazis and their ilk

[vernal silo]

LMFAO fair enough 😭😭

[lone flower]

you called an expectation an axiom like earlier explained but im the one projecting now, you cant be serious bruh

[vernal silo]

Think a neonazi would be banned long before they manage to get into a discussion about it

[true zinc]

Some have gotten into fights on this server

[bright hill]

Yea

[thorn wren]

Some of them are somehow smart enough to avoid crossing "the line" yet not smart enough to examine their own beliefs

[vernal silo]

Crazy shit 😭

[thorn wren]

Then they go mask off and it's funny to watch

[vernal silo]

"Well hey Im not saying I hate the jews but I think [outlandish shit]"

[grim torrent]

(smart-enough) neonazis are a lot less discreet than that

[pure temple]

i'm game to have a serious discussion about nazis

[inland hornet]

who did this change oml

rahh i'm serious >:(

[thorn wren]

If you want to shitpost #discussion is right there

[pure temple]

a particularly good conversation topic about nazis is the nazi economic miracle

how did it happen?

[vernal silo]

I think the germans were actually pretty fond of the painter when he initially rose to power

Dictatorships, especially fascist dictatorships, don't just pop up randomly

It's a gradual process

[pure temple]

i am specifically interested in the economic policies that led to the nazi economic miracle

what were they?

how did germany go from child brothels to chudgdp?

[vernal silo]

I think cause Germany somehow had the rest of Europe in a chokehold

Im not exactly too sure how but there was leverage

I lowk forgot the full history

[grim torrent]

mefo bills

[vernal silo]

Let me search it up

[pure temple]

that's an interesting hypothesis, what were the external economic policies of prewar nazi germany that drained wealth from the rest of europe?

[grim torrent]

also the nazi regime broke up labor unions and i think they even went as far to delegalize unemployment

it's literally just the symptom of totalitarian abuse

oh yeah they also looted from the jews and other minorities they killed

[pure temple]

how does looting minorities increase gdp?

that's wealth redistribution, not wealth creation

the nazi economy experienced a massive surge in wealth creation over a six year period

they did this before invading anyone

what was the secret sauce?

[grim torrent]

they subsidized jewish businesses and sold them out to "respected" races for 10% the price

so govt spending increased

from whateve ri learned in macro gdp increases linearly with govt spending

[vernal silo]

Autarky too I believe

The FOur Year Plan

[pure temple]

but the nazis reversed inflation, that's incompatible with your hypothesis

they absurdly massively reduced government printing and spending

[misty lark]

what the fuck is going on here

[grim torrent]

they suppressed inflation, not reversed

there were price and wage freezes sometime in the mid 1930s

[pure temple]

and yet the average german got far wealthier

[vernal silo]

Discussing the economic policies of nazi germany

[odd narwhal]

The Nazis also created hundreds of thousands of jobs

Now one might wonder what means they used to achieve this

[misty lark]

yeah the job of killing jews didnt exist before, new jobs /half joking

[pure temple]

job creation and wealth creation are a little different

[odd narwhal]

My point was someone had to take the jobs of all the people the nazis disappeared

And also take their wealth

[pure temple]

explicitly, the nazis massively increased the access to goods and services available to the average german in a short six year period

[misty lark]

true

[odd narwhal]

There's innumerable stories of german families getting moved into houses that used to be owned by jewish families

[pure temple]

you cannot account for even most of the economic growth by suggesting it was redistribution by stealing from minorities

one of the first nazi policies, by the way, was closing the child brothels

hitler had very specific economic policies that might be interesting to consider

[vernal silo]

To be fair their economy heavily relied on debt

[misty lark]

im confused about the point of this argument

[vernal silo]

I doubt it would've remained stable

[pure temple]

printing money is debt, which they reversed

[vernal silo]

It's a relatively interesting discussion I suppose?

[odd narwhal]

And then established wehrmacht brothels all throughout europe

I also can't find any mention of "child" brothels specifically

[pure temple]

three of the policies, off the top of my head:

1. ban high interest loans
2. forgive loans for families that raise children
3. currency backed by direct labor

[vernal silo]

Yeah that's a weird thing to bring up

[misty lark]

theres gotta be a point in arguing for the nazi party

theres no such thing as a child brothel either

[odd narwhal]

Sex work in nazi germany was not any better than pre nazi germany, except that they sent street workers to concentration camps since they saw them as asocial and degenerate

[pure temple]

google "tea boy"

[odd narwhal]

But they had brothels IN concentration camps

[pure temple]

child brothels are very popular today

[vernal silo]

I mean it is a discussion about history, I doubt discussing economic policies is the same as advocating for the party as a whole

[misty lark]

im not naive, i know kids get kidnapped and turned into sex slaves. brothel is not the same as human trafficking however

[odd narwhal]

And in cities, and on military bases

[pure temple]

i'm not talking about kidnapping i'm talking about legitimate establishments

[misty lark]

this makes no sense

[pure temple]

fly to pakistan and ask for a tea boy

[misty lark]

either their parents sold them or they were kidnapped

[vernal silo]

I may not be too informed but were there legitimate establishments for borthels harboring children?

[odd narwhal]

Can you give an example of a weimar-era brothel that outwardly and legally employed children?

[misty lark]

is that kid consenthing?

is pedophilia legal in pakistan? no

[pure temple]

children cannot consent

[misty lark]

pedophilia is not legal anywhere

[vernal silo]

Default answer is obviously no

[misty lark]

exactly. so its not a legal establishment

[pure temple]

yet you can walk five minutes from your hotel and purchase the service

you can also fly to cuba where the age of consent is 12

[misty lark]

is this bro defending human traficking?

what is happening

[silent junco]

what is your point exactly

[pure temple]

no, i'm just explaining to you that it's normal

i find it abhorrent

[silent junco]

this is a complete nonsequitur from what you were saying earlier

[misty lark]

human traficking is normal?

[pure temple]

well it's not trafficking, but yeah, it's normal around the world

[vernal silo]

Well yes but that's due to corruption not because of legality

"Legal establishment" implies that it is allowed by the government

[misty lark]

it is tafficking

[vernal silo]

I.e. it is illegal

[misty lark]

because kids are being sold

kids are humans

[pure temple]

it's not trafficking, the kids agree to it, it's a cultural phenomenon

[misty lark]

believe it or not

[silent junco]

???

[pure temple]

there is also trafficking too but that is separate

mostly christians are trafficked

[odd narwhal]

@pure temple do you have an example?

[misty lark]

so your saying children can consent then? then pedophilia should be legal?

[vernal silo]

Okay dude you lost the plot what are we even talking about here

[pure temple]

are you dense?

i'm saying it's normal and that i find it abhorrent

[misty lark]

no, you are

[odd narwhal]

You said nazis closed all the child brothels, can you demonstrate they existed?

[pure temple]

i'm a westerner

[misty lark]

you are saying that its fine and normal cuz the kids consent

[silent junco]

as stated, this is a ridiculous on several levels but genuinely i cannot even begin to understand what you think youre saying

[pure temple]

i said kids cannot consent, you are dense

[misty lark]

racism too.. hm

[misty lark]

.

[pure temple]

the west is not a race but okay

[vast wraith]

omg its aligator

[pure temple]

idk what word to use instead of agree there but there is probably a good one

[misty lark]

no but you are saying non westerners are for pedophilia

[pure temple]

hi jen missed you too

[vast wraith]

mr ice glazer

[pure temple]

have you seen the global map of child marriage legality and frequency?

western countries ban it

[misty lark]

its banned everywhere you dumbass

[vernal silo]

Yeah that adds up 😭😭

[pure temple]

i wish that were true tae

but no, marrying a child is very easy, just hop on a flight

[silent junco]

just because a law isnt enforced doesnt mean its not there

[torn talon]

wait is this a new channel?

I haven't seen this before

[vernal silo]

No, renamed discussion 2

[misty lark]

exactly

[pure temple]

both are issues at the same time, it is legal in much of the world

[torn talon]

oh ok

[misty lark]

no

[rocky shuttle]

repurposing #360643390594875392-2

[torn talon]

So like only math here right?

[misty lark]

no

[vernal silo]

Human trafficking is not legal??

[pure temple]

tae, google "in which countries can i legally marry a child"

[torn talon]

hmm, doesn't seem like it

[rocky shuttle]

only serious™ discussions

[misty lark]

why tf would i google that

im not a weirdo

[pure temple]

because you're ignorant

[torn talon]

serious as in like .... math

[odd narwhal]

Read the channel description. Thanks

[thorn wren]

Check channel descriptions

[pure temple]

you should learn what the world is actually like

[torn talon]

ok

[rocky shuttle]

serious as in religion or politics

[torn talon]

let me do that real quick

[misty lark]

i know what it is like. i am again not naive. im saying that it is illegal everywhere

[pure temple]

and you're wrong

[eager ledge]

The default excuse is “I’m doing research for my novel”.

[torn talon]

ok

[misty lark]

just because people dont uphold it dont mean its not illegal

[odd narwhal]

Still waiting for an answer about this

[pure temple]

there are places where it is illegal and normal, and there are places where it is legal and normal

[vernal silo]

Even if it were legal in other countries I don't get the point he's trying to make tbh

[torn talon]

@thorn wren , I just made the final conceptual leap for my rotation project, so 1 down, 2 to go in my formal bet

[pure temple]

mostly i am just sharing information, i'm not interested in making points

[misty lark]

no me neither. that its normal and child brothels are fine ig?

[pure temple]

it is a point in itself to be well informed

just because something is normal doesn't mean it is fine

[cedar shore]

perhaps some references or evidence would be nice than just stating claims

[odd narwhal]

You can't just say "nazis closed the child brothels* and then refuse to give any evidence they even existed. I couldn't find anything about child brothels that wasn't antisemitic nazi propaganda

[vernal silo]

Right, but you mentioned the nazi policies rid of child brothels

Can you provide evidence they existed in the first place?

[pure temple]

i find the cultures where child marriage is normal to be barbaric and uncivilized

[vernal silo]

Right, what's your point?

[misty lark]

but then you also saying "the kids agree to it"

[silent junco]

sure i did. doesnt exactly match with the picture youre presenting

[pure temple]

so what do you think of the policy where if you knock the kid up you can then marry her?

is that significantly more ethical than "no restrictions"?

[silent junco]

the key point here isnt just "where is it completely legal", its also "where is it legal with parental permission" which is how a large large portion of child marriage happens

[misty lark]

whaaaat, doesnt all countries in asia, south america and africa love child marraige???????????

[pure temple]

there was a recent case in turkey where a muslim man had his way with a teenage christian girl and the court ruled that she has to marry him and convert to islam

turkey is a progressive secular country, of course

[vernal silo]

Okay woah calm down there 😭😭

[heavy pagoda]

this is not very accurate

[misty lark]

its sarcasm my friend

[silent junco]

obviously not thats exactly the point im making. take a close look at the map, the us doesnt do any better in this regard as far as legality is concerned

[heavy pagoda]

lots of the data points for the european countries are wrong

[pure temple]

yes, let's make carve outs and excuses for the men that want a child bride

[odd narwhal]

The US has a lot of child marriages

[misty lark]

islam condems pedophilia. so does all religions. their religion has nothing to do with this

[odd narwhal]

Especially for a "western" "progressive" ""first-world"" country

[pure temple]

you have clearly not read the quran

[silent junco]

nobody said that

[misty lark]

islamophobia to

[true zinc]

I feel like this is just thinly veiled islamophobia

[misty lark]

no wonder you have that sabrina carpenter photo as your pfp

[true zinc]

Okay and the Bible doesn't do too much better, if I recall

[vernal silo]

What'd sabrina carpenter do?

[odd narwhal]

I guess I won't be getting an answer from alegator

[pure temple]

i love sabrina

[heavy pagoda]

norse paganism does a very good job on this

[torn talon]

yes that is true

[misty lark]

the photo is of her like this weekend while she was being racist

she said arab culture was "weird" and "dont do it again"

[torn talon]

The discrepencies within actual islamic law and what is being followed in supposedly "islamic" countries like Turkey is a national problem not a religion problem

[heavy pagoda]

probably the most intersting graphic would be rates of child marriage per capita in each country

[misty lark]

thats not what we are discussing tho

[pure temple]

turkey is secular, technically

[heavy pagoda]

this is surely much more meaningful than like

[vernal silo]

I live in a Muslim country

The vast majority of people, muslims included and of any religions, condemn pedophilia, that is obvious

Depending on how you interpret religious texts though some fundamentalists would argue otherwise

This is not in defense of islamaphobia, since all sane muslims would strongly condemn it, but there are cases to be made regarding interpretation of religious scripture

[grim torrent]

slightly surpriisng

[misty lark]

alegator thinks its legal in most non western countries

[torn talon]

i am just saying, Islam has laid out all the rules, its up to us muslims to abide by them

[vast wraith]

actually crazy that aligator was not banned during his first spurt of activity some months ago

[heavy pagoda]

countries where something is technically legal but virtually never happens in practice (hence why there arent many formal legal obstacles to it) versus something that is de jure illegal but happens a lot in practice (which motivates recent legislation against it)

[true zinc]

I thought he was

[misty lark]

what did he do tell me tell me tell me

[vernal silo]

Oh damn what? Source?

[pure temple]

i agree with 18 as a minimum age and would like it to be a federal law

[misty lark]

just google it

[cedar shore]

It is quite overblown

[pure temple]

i was, yes

[cedar shore]

Her response to me was quite reasonable

[misty lark]

crazy to join back into a server you were banned from

[heavy pagoda]

yeah ngl the sabrina carpenter stuff is overblown

[inner canopy]

is this channel just a sting operation to out all the racist and xenophobic morons in the server

[vernal silo]

Seems reasonable. Saying this as an Arab myself

[misty lark]

i hope so

[pure temple]

or it's a sting operation to out everyone who tacitly supports child marriage and abuse

[misty lark]

so you?

[vernal silo]

Dude your position has been questionable at best

Youre being real inconsistent

[misty lark]

alegator you are the only one here arguing for child marraige

[pure temple]

clearly the person informed and upset about the phenomenon is not in support of it :)

[silent junco]

i wouldnt mind entertaining you for another hour or two until you go full mask off but unfortunately i have to go in a few minutes so im just going to give you a mute. take that time to internalize the fact that this kind of bad faith pseudointellectual drivel is not welcome here. you have, in your history here, repeatedly demonstrated that youre not interested in any kind of meaningful dialogue. youve established a clear pattern of parroting nazi rhetoric in a way that just stops short of the line. we arent stupid, and there is no freedom of speech, due process, or reasonable doubt in our moderation policy. consider this your final warning

[odd narwhal]

Can you link the news article?

[torn talon]

yeah where is the proof of this?

[odd narwhal]

Best I found is a case in Pakistan from 5 years ago where the girl was kidnapped and forced to convert. The man got life

[misty lark]

slay

better than in some other countries

(sweden)

[vast wraith]

i havent read many of his messages i have him blocked, but from the ones i did read i rather get the impression that he’s “just” a white supremacist and is using child marriage as a “justification” for his racism

[torn talon]

wait who the hell does he think he is lecturing us about a religion he has no relation with

[vernal silo]

Even if it were the case that there are sick ass nations allowing child marriage and sex trafficking, what exactly is the point alegator trying to make here? I am genuinely failing to see what he's trying to say

[misty lark]

that is true

[torn talon]

Have u read the quran alegator

[misty lark]

a westerner lol

[torn talon]

If u did u woudl know not to say BS like that

[misty lark]

islamophobes do anything to call muslims bad

[torn talon]

I mean u can provide your opinion but you dont have a right to talk about smth you have no idea about @pure temple

[misty lark]

hes muted

[silent junco]

that user is muted btw. i would recommend ceasing to engage with his messages altogether.

[odd narwhal]

Well, this convo started with the claim that "The nazis closed all the child brothels"

[vernal silo]

Which to my knowledge wasn't even a thing pre-nazi germany lol

[odd narwhal]

I tried searching, only thing I could find was neonazi pages and nazi propaganda

[vernal silo]

Not like Nazi handling of sex crimes was any better either

[odd narwhal]

So that should tell you how truthful it is

[inner canopy]

I feel like it's partly the fault of those that engaged in a topic that was so clearly either stupid or bait that this spiraled out of control

[misty lark]

huh?

that makes 0 sense

[odd narwhal]

I don't think we should leave these kinds of positions unchallenged

They should have been banned sooner, though

[misty lark]

guys when someone says something crazy, ignore it cuz being a happy family is more important!!

[vernal silo]

I think this is the thing he wanted to lay out

1. Child sexual abuse is not enforced properly and (in his words) is "normal"
2. Nazi closed child brothels (not a thing)
3. Nazis did something right?

Genuinely the only coherent train of thought I can think of

[odd narwhal]

I mean that certainly seems the implication

Ignoring all the brothels that the nazis themselves ran

[vernal silo]

Anyways conversation was fucking weird from the get-go

[vivid halo]

[odd narwhal]

If you go here they were trying to argue the nazis were good for the economy

#serious-discussion message

A bit above

[vernal silo]

It did start out interesting with discussing historic economic policies. Have no idea how this shit spiralled

[odd narwhal]

It's because the banned user is either a nazi, a nazi apologist or has fully bought into their talking points

Notice how they never responded to any challenge of their claimed facts

[vernal silo]

Honestly even they did implement good economic policies (not really, althoough I suppose there is some ideas of merit) it is irrelevant due to the disproportionate number of outlandish shit they've done

[plush idol]

1 day of having serious discussion and we got neo nazi in the chat

[cedar shore]

how does one speak with such confidence without having any references backing them up

[timid zenith]

Yes, why are we mentioning something present 234 messages ago?

[plush idol]

All I can say is bruh

[misty lark]

thats just usual discussion

[heavy pagoda]

isnt there this story that the nazis made it illegal to store live lobsters and crabs in too small of a cage due to concerns regarding animal cruelty

[timid zenith]

[vernal silo]

Hitler was surprisingly sympathetic over animals

If only he carried over that basic human decency to... well, humans

[odd narwhal]

I was giving context for the start of the discussion?

[timid zenith]

Oh sorry my bad

[heavy pagoda]

this is actually a thing they were big on for some reason https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_welfare_in_Nazi_Germany

[odd narwhal]

Dogma and conviction

[vernal silo]

@heavy pagoda

[timid zenith]

Though, i feel like maybe it shouldn't have gone on for over 250 messages... Idk

[heavy pagoda]

selective empathy is a thing that happens a lot for some reason

[odd narwhal]

It should have probably been shut down sooner, but they're gone now

[vernal silo]

He was a vegan and animal rights activist and everything

Just not great towards actual people

It's a weird thing

[inner canopy]

those types of people need to be outright banned without a second thought
Engaging with them on any level and banning them after a lengthy discussion makes them feel vindicated and wronged and you've just made the situation worse
Approaching these types of people from a rational standpoint where you present them facts won't do anything because their value proposition isn't the same as yours
They do not value facts and neither does a nontrivial subset of people with a similar attitude towards politics
If you platform people like that you're just more likely to find another moron reading the thread and see you ban them for "speaking the truth" or whatever and feel like you're just a liberal idiot suppressing someone's right to free speech

[heavy pagoda]

i mean probably to some degree some of this was motivated by the belief that if they didnt do what they did civilisation would be destroyed or whatever

which probably lets you justify doing arbitrarily bad things while convinvcing yourself you are acting in the utilitarian interest

[misty lark]

you cant ban without proof

banning without proper proof and you would yell modabuse instead

[inner canopy]

you definitely can

it's not like mods have to have a valid reason to ban someone

this isn't a fair hierarchy

[misty lark]

the mods arent power hungry assholes

[heavy pagoda]

in principle i think the userbase would probably be happier if there were at least some clear general principles as to what you can and cannot do

[grim torrent]

hi tterra

[heavy pagoda]

imagine if someone made like a 10,000 page legal document detailing the precise limits of what is allowed on their discord server

[misty lark]

boring

[odd narwhal]

I prefer to first try to engage in good faith and ban as soon as it's clear they aren't. Some are more blatant than others. In this case we were having a short internal discussion which is why it took longer. In the case of subtler bigotry I think it's important to first challenge it

[odd narwhal]

We've never, to my knowledge, banned anyone without them first doing something actionable. I am generally not in favour of pre-emptive bans

This particular user should have been banned for longer initially

[heavy pagoda]

bans are temporary by default?

[misty lark]

mods decide how long your banned

some are perminant, some are 1 year, some are 6 months

[odd narwhal]

Ban length is decided on a case-by-case basis

[heavy pagoda]

are they typically temporary?

[odd narwhal]

I never said that

[heavy pagoda]

oh im asking if they are typically temporary

[odd narwhal]

Oh my brain inserted a "why"

Apologies

[heavy pagoda]

because the stuff you said this user did sounds like it ought to be at least as bad as the typical banned offence

so the fact that their ban is temporary makes it sound like lots of bans would be

[odd narwhal]

I'm not sure. I think the majority are in the 2 year range, the philosophy largely being that 2 years is enough for a person to change their behaviour

[odd narwhal]

We generally issue at least a 1-2 year ban for bigotry, with many being permanent. Shorter bans are generally for less severe infractions. Sometimes there is more or less leniency given the context

I think we all agree not banning this person for longer was a mistake, though

[verbal monolith]

was @pure temple banned? apologies, i just got here

[odd narwhal]

Yea

[verbal monolith]

ah

[timid zenith]

Yes

[verbal monolith]

checks out.

[ionic wraith]

Lebanese people can experience some temporary relieve

[flat karma]

Gng ihave feeling

Ts not gonna last long

[torn talon]

does anyone here listen to Tame Impala's song: "New person, same old mistakes".

One of his best IMHO

[flat karma]

Non

[magic python]

That's kinda off topic for this channel

[torn talon]

ok

nvm

I guess "discussion" would be better here?

[magic python]

Yeah, this is for serious topics

[flat karma]

Define discussion

[torn talon]

the channel

[dusky quartz]

@glass plover Do you still have the logic server?

[glass plover]

Uhh who are you

[shrewd loom]

ble

[dusky quartz]

I was in the server and discussed relative identity with you but got off discord

[full hornet]

what is this

[torn talon]

the channel?

[magic python]

#changelog

[full hornet]

ok i see now

[timid zenith]

Yeah it's been quiet

[torn talon]

After the ceasfire?

[glass plover]

Uhh sure, you kind of look like a very sus account tbh

But yeah it's still a thing

[dusky quartz]

My other account had a default profile picture

I had a question about the formalization of an argument and thought people there could help

[glass plover]

I'd rather help you in DM tbh

[ionic wraith]

It isn’t, Israel is bloodthirsty

[zealous garden]

"You can't prove X, therefore I will believe not X"
But you can't prove not X either, so will you believe not not X?

[zealous garden]

No, saying this with no argument is pretty stupid.

[magic python]

Is this why being agnostic is good

[zealous garden]

Don't be a loser

[zealous garden]

Based

[dusty wraith]

pascal would disagree

[magic python]

According to pascal I should ideally follow all religions where a thing to get into the good afterlife is to follow it :3

[dusty wraith]

yeah maybe 🤷‍♂️ its just that he says to live is to already choose since your actions mean you have chosen and hence you should choose the better option

[magic python]

I mean the whole "you should believe because overall it is better" thingy kinda implies you should maximize your odds for the good afterlife

[dusty wraith]

yes, and? what's there to disagree with there

the counterargument is usually that you can't control your beliefs like that what do you mean just take the better bet

[magic python]

The fact is it pretty easy to choose wrong, there are only so many you need to follow to get into the good afterlife that block you from following others correctly

Plus it makes it harder to enjoy life arguably

[timid zenith]

That means you are only doing stuff for the sake of your own benefit? Kinda selfish

[magic python]

Unless you find like the ones with the least requirements or something

[timid zenith]

Okay I should've slept a while ago

[magic python]

And even then you can only truly believe in so many

[dusty wraith]

I mean its not related to others though so i dont think selfish applies here

[dusty wraith]

yeah that's a valid point all im saying is that pascal raises an important idea

[magic python]

To me, it just seems like you lose so many mortal pleasures for an insanely slim chance to obtain salvation or whatever

[dusty wraith]

which is like

to live is to chose

agnostic doesn't really make sense

[magic python]

except for the religions where you must affect others

[dusty wraith]

sure

[timid zenith]

I think if you're only basing your choices based on odds of a good afterlife you aren't actually doing anything moral ever, only doing somethin for the benefit. Which is still weird

[magic python]

I understand i don't know and will not know until I die, why should I choose if I think it exists or not when my decision doesn't affect me now

[timid zenith]

which is like most of the popular onee for 99.9% of people

[dusty wraith]

that is kinda wrong because if you already believe in a religion then that is your concept of morality so what do you mean you aren't doing anything moral

you are assuming some kind of morality above the religion

[verbal monolith]

because we don’t know the extent to which any of the afterlife exists. we physically only know to be true that religion is a man made creation, and the bases of its construction were but untraceable, or impossibly verificable. following a religion with the condition that your life will be lived in hinderance considering that the only reason is to maybe have a better chance at attaining an afterlife, the idea of which was created by humans who haven’t experienced it, is for me more of a handicap made by fear than anything.

[dusty wraith]

which doesn't necessarily make sense

[dusty wraith]

yes thats pascal's wager

[magic python]

I only knew of Christianity saying to spread the gospel, didn't know others had you affecting others as well (and what is know about Christianity is probably wrong)

[timid zenith]

I mean your reasoning for doing something moral isnt for the sake of being moral and in a way that can lead you to be immotal

[dusty wraith]

I mean if you believe in god then you believe that is what morality even means

so in a sense this statement is meaningless

but i see where you are coming from

I'm an atheist anyway

or "agnostic"

[green laurel]

where does darth vader go to get his shoes!

[verbal monolith]

wouldn’t a divine being whose sense is to give moral justice to those whom believe in it and follow its ideals know of this wager and in turn know that somebody is solely faithful because of such a gamble?

[timid zenith]

Yes sure but how do you know you are acting of proper judgement? If your only reason for doing something is that it is moral there is no way to determine whether your belief is moral if you believe in it.

[young vector]

Finish the joke pls

[edgy scarab]

Is there a summation for C_10 Champernowne's constant and are there few other examples of normal numbers other than C_10 0.237111317..... and can someone tell how 0.149162536496481100121144... is normal and how 0.2371113171923...... is normal

[verbal monolith]

#math-discussion

[timid zenith]

Bruh

[green laurel]

the darth mall!

[young vector]

Lmao

[timid zenith]

This person just pinged helpers btw for the same question

[verbal monolith]

fuckin hell

[timid zenith]

Im eeppy

[young vector]

That’s so funny

[dusty wraith]

No but you cannot be solely faithful because of a gamble, If I follow this gamble and realize that the better choice would be to believe in god this does not yet say anything about my belief, we cannot control beliefs like that

the idea is that you realize that some belief is more sensible, and then you put yourself in a situation in which you start to have faith

[verbal monolith]

this is a channel for SERIOUS discussion.

[timid zenith]

No etiquette

[rocky shuttle]

Darth Serious

[timid zenith]

Yes, and I'm surprised you're actually being serious for once

[young vector]

How serious is this chat

[timid zenith]

95%

[verbal monolith]

check channel description and #changelog

[rocky shuttle]

seriously religious and political

[dusty wraith]

depends on what you mean by "know", all our knowledge is based on certain assumptions that we have and if someone believes in god then he does know he is acting on proper judgement

this is why this area of conversation is a bit tricky

[nova spear]

@young vector isn’t this channel so serious

[young vector]

Yea

[verbal monolith]

so, like dipping your toes into it, and leading from there in a sense? apologies, i’m trying to understand.

[neat lintel]

Serious mode

[dusty wraith]

yes exactly that is what pascal says in his writings

the gamble does not make you believe in anything

it makes you put yourself in situations where you start to have faith

[verbal monolith]

do you believe in his works in the sense that you follow them? or are we simply discussing them

[young vector]

Why did the chicken crossed the road

[dusty wraith]

i am discussing them, im an atheist

[bright hill]

Sigh

[dusty wraith]

but i definitely think that people dismiss this stuff too easily and do not know enough about it

[bright hill]

Please move to a different channel

[verbal monolith]

i see, i also am agnostic but i do find such discussion very interesting

[young vector]

To get to the other side hahaha

[dusty wraith]

agreed

[verbal monolith]

joined today, what a shock

[dusty wraith]

the most interesting part of pascal is that he says you HAVE to choose

you can't just say I won't choose

[green laurel]

so no jokes?

[verbal monolith]

hmm

[nova spear]

Alfo are you ok

[dusty wraith]

since by living you are already choosing

through your actions

[verbal monolith]

use your noggin on that one

[nova spear]

Please be alive

[green laurel]

knock knock

[nova spear]

Who’s there

[timid zenith]

Do you "know" though? Or is thay simply an assumption?

[worn spruce]

WHOS THERE

[verbal monolith]

<@&268886789983436800>

[timid zenith]

Me three

[verbal monolith]

this would be of the implication that being is having made a choice

interesting

[dusty wraith]

I mean that's what I was saying, any knowledge is knowledge based on some assumptions you have so if someone does believe then he does KNOW what he is doing is right

[bright hill]

Each and everyone here was warned not two seconds ago

[silent junco]

read the channel description and #changelog. this does not belong in this channel

[dusty wraith]

of course there is still nuance there like does belief mean certainty or not and things like that

[green laurel]

are the moderators answering the door?

[verbal monolith]

they’ve also been causing quite the problem in main discussy for a tad

[dusty wraith]

yeah

so that's why if you HAVE to choose

then it is sensible to choose the better option

this is something that people do not discuss when dismissing pascal

[timid zenith]

But you can have someone believing in the same things who disagrees with that person. Which one of them is "wrong"?

[verbal monolith]

it cannot be known which is better, for in the end all is simply made up by man as a way to imagine how things may be following life, no?

[bright hill]

It's been dealt with.

[wise jetty]

whas going on

[wild lantern]

Yes, you were just warned so now you are muted.

[timid zenith]

Nee channel what's up ren

[dusty wraith]

sorry i dont understand

[wise jetty]

not new, js discussion-2

was teaching sava lagrangian mechanics

[timid zenith]

It's been changed tho

[wise jetty]

didn't do an amazing job bc its 3:25

[timid zenith]

To serious discussion

[wise jetty]

and also idk ive js been stammering more

[wise jetty]

yeah ik

[dusty wraith]

I mean you can disagree with his conclusion to which one is better, but I think that would be a bit hard to do

[wise jetty]

but uh im gonna go to sleep tho

been a while, tho, asmo, hyd

[verbal monolith]

was he a christian?

[dusty wraith]

yeah

[verbal monolith]

i see, interesting

[dusty wraith]

and he started his writing with saying that there is no way to prove/disprove the existence of god hence you need some other kind of way to justify your faith

not a way through proof

but a way through rationality in some sense

[timid zenith]

He thinks he knows what he's doing is right. But does he know he's right?

[dusty wraith]

I mean he knows in the sense that anyone can possibly know something

which is based on certain axioms/values that we hold

[timid zenith]

Which doesn't say much

[dusty wraith]

I mean sure but there's just no way you can say that another thing is "better knowledge"

you have to start somewhere

for some people that is god

[timid zenith]

Yes which is why I brought that up earlier : two people with the same axioms can disagree

[dusty wraith]

yeah then one of them is wrong (assuming a consistent axiomatic system 😄 )

[dusty wraith]

forgot to reply directly but my response is above if u didnt see it

[verbal monolith]

ah

[grim torrent]

Serious mode: ACTIVATED.

[dusty wraith]

i love this channel already

[timid zenith]

So one cannot know they are right, so by choosing to do what is good based on the assumption that it is good it leaves no room for verification of what is good. You are doing something thats good because it is good which is circular reasoning, you must have a reason why you believe it be good. I doubt religious people believe every word in their religious books 100% literally, so clearly there must be something other than simply believing god exists or something

[grim torrent]

Sorry, but "love" for a Discord channel is not a statement of religion or politics. Please refer to the channel description and move to an appropriate channel.

[dusty wraith]

Oh, I'm terribly sorry.

[timid zenith]

what you are saying is pretty extreme but I'm too tired to think anymore TBH

[timid zenith]

LMAO

[dreamy crag]

(erm it says such as, so like, love might be included)

[grim torrent]

Perhaps we shall consult the Moderators?

[verbal monolith]

pascal was definitely an interesting guy

[odd narwhal]

Stop shitposting

[dusty wraith]

no I mean it is not this simple you know, you have reasons in believing that some religion is the correct one so you are not just saying "i'm correct because im correct" even though it is technically circular

[verbal monolith]

huh, that’s the same pascal that made pascal’s triangle? cool!

i had previously assumed they were separate individuals

[dusty wraith]

there is a sense in which everything is technically circular, but it doesn't mean it is useless

[odd narwhal]

Idk if this is a joke but it's an overreaction

[dusty wraith]

yes!

cool guy

[grim torrent]

I apologize, then.

[dusty wraith]

his theology is definitely interesting

[vast wraith]

lots of ppl have written down “pascal’s” triangle before pascal

[timid zenith]

Well you worded it a bit badly then it didnt seem like this to me earlier lol

[verbal monolith]

i’ll have to look into it more. his stance on religion definitely piques my interest

[odd narwhal]

Pascal was a polymath like a lot of mathematicians at the time

[vast wraith]

jansenism is rly weird

[odd narwhal]

Very naive though

[dusty wraith]

yeah i found it very interesting too and it is not so easily dismissed like many do

[odd narwhal]

The wager at least

[dusty wraith]

I mean I do have some issues with it but it is more interesting than people give it credit for

[timid zenith]

Alright seriousness over for today. Goodbye

[dusty wraith]

usually it is phrased in a vast oversimplification

[vast wraith]

pascal’s wager is not at all a good representation of pascal’s theology

[dusty wraith]

making it feel stupid

but its not really

[verbal monolith]

i do think many philosophies are classified as stupid, though i appreciate looking into those even more

[dusty wraith]

yes I took like a philosophy of religion course at my uni and I realized that most things are fairly plausible, people dismiss this stuff like it stupid or whatever

but it really isn't

[verbal monolith]

i think out of all the outlooks one can have on the world, one that is shunned piques my interest. why is it as such? what is so commonly drawn from society’s mindset that pushes people to so quickly deny these mindsets

[dusty wraith]

usually its a strong misunderstanding of what they mean

[dusty wraith]

yeah that is interesting as well, I try my best to not accept people's words in that things are just stupid and read the works myself

usually that is much more insightful and you realize that most don't really know what was meant

[vast wraith]

for pascal the reason and the heart are entirely independent, the wager is not an argument for belief

[verbal monolith]

and also context matters,time periods of course drastically changed how people viewed the world

[dusty wraith]

yeah

[verbal monolith]

@stark trench i think you’d appreciate this channel

[dusty wraith]

I didn't read a lot from pascal, but from what I understood is that the wager is not going to make you believe it is simply a reason to put yourself in situations where you might start to have faith

[vast wraith]

i have a collection of essays about (and some excerpts from) pascal which i love dearly and have read much in, i havent yet read anything of his pensees

i hope to, eventually

[celest python]

whats the diff between the #advanced-lounge and the #math-discussion

[verbal monolith]

what is the first? i have no access.

[bright hill]

Advanced lounge

[celest python]

ohhhh i think i get it, equip the undergraduate math role

[verbal monolith]

ah

oh i have no math roles lol

eh wtv, too lazy to fix.

[vast wraith]

honestly jansenism just makes zero sense to me

[dusty wraith]

no idea what this is

[dreamy crag]

the one wehre you cant eat anything dead?

and you cant kill by eating

[vast wraith]

here is how wikipedia introduces it

[vast wraith]

um thats probably something else

[storm sage]

jainism?

[vast wraith]

pascal was a prominent jansenist

[dreamy crag]

think so yeah

[dusty wraith]

yeah i still don't get it haha like what's special about it isn't this a very common belief that god is the way to salvation

[next schooner]

Internal catholic mini schisms and theological debates from the low mediaeval through to the renaissance periods went crazy

Though it's not something I know much about tbh

[storm sage]

one of the questions is whether humans have free will or if all your actions are predetermined by god

[vast wraith]

im not sure what is official catholic doctrine, but i think most christians generally assume free will plays some part in salvation

[dusty wraith]

I mean it can be argued that both are compatible

[dusty wraith]

ah so they believed that there was no free will?

[next schooner]

I do for some reason have a specific interest in the early apolostic ministries of the early church

[dusty wraith]

that's an odd belief to hold as a christian

[next schooner]

Wait til you hear about some of the other far more batshit movements

The great schism and the church's response to the various fun and fruity flavours of the early protestant denominations is wild

[dusty wraith]

I have no idea about those

[next schooner]

The Anabaptists went fuckin sicko mode

Just Google the Münster rebellion

[storm sage]

I like the interpretation that the serpent in the Garden of Eden was Christ

[next schooner]

Uh

[tall marsh]

still chasing that debate huh

[next schooner]

Gonna need a definition of "pureness" for a monotheistic religion to really answer that

[storm sage]

What do you think

[vast wraith]

if i understand correctly, free will is catholic doctrine, but many protestant traditions reject it, either way i dont think jansenism asserts that you have free will or not, just that free will is independent of salvation, which they claim is only by god’s grace

[tall marsh]

why do you think that?

curious

[next schooner]

Interestingly, the Hebrew bible can be interpreted as being non-monotheistic

[dusty wraith]

ah i see, It's unclear to me what that really means or entails though

[tall marsh]

well the qur'an hasnt been changed apparently since conception- its their way of understanding god- is that your view

idk

god is a concept

the book is to understand it

[next schooner]

Well, the Hebrew bible is perhaps more properly described as reflecting a henotheistic theology/cosmology

[storm sage]

Well their God is the same as the Jewish God according to them

[tall marsh]

yup

[vast wraith]

same

[lucid herald]

https://www.instagram.com/p/DXPYdS2iIT6/?igsh=c2xld3J2a3VoNmFz
My post for cosx = n+1

Thats crazy 💀

Ik

[tall marsh]

I mean

[brave flare]

hi, this is not the appropiate channel for this. This would be fit for #math-discussion and maybe if you hadnt it be a damn instagram post

[lucid herald]

They got kicked from european countries in the 1600s to 1900s

[lucid herald]

Ok thanks

[storm sage]

I went to the History of Jews in Poland museum in Warsaw recently, it was really fascinating

[next schooner]

Ffuuuuuck I wanna talk about jansenism but I'm on my phone and I HATE typing on my phone

[storm sage]

Jews were in Poland for so many centuries

[lucid herald]

Hahahaha they didnt like them ig

[verbal monolith]

you can use speech to text

[storm sage]

:|

[lucid herald]

They burned morz then a million jew i think

[dreamy crag]

please go to another chanel

[tall marsh]

yup

[dreamy crag]

<@&268886789983436800> nazi dog wissle

[lucid herald]

But im just talking in the same subject

[storm sage]

It's so inconceivable to think that 90% of all of Poland's Jews were killed by the Nazis

[lucid herald]

Hell nah

[tall marsh]

not imparially

[lucid herald]

Wdym

[dreamy crag]

not sure if u know that but saying "at least a million" is a nazi dog wissle thats used a lot

so try to not do that

[storm sage]

I think it's just a kid being insensitive

[next schooner]

I don't see a dog whistle here just somebody who genuinely just doesn't have a fuckin clue about the holocaust

[wild lantern]

I have never heard of this

[dreamy crag]

yes

[brave flare]

cant say ive ever heard of that

[lost spruce]

or just dont be a dumbass? its serious discussion

hi im vsrocketstormer ive been lurking here

[glass peak]

I would agree were it not for the comment about getting kicked out of every country from 16-1900

[storm sage]

But for the record, millions is the right order of magnitude, the current estimates are that around 6 million Jews were killed during the Holocaust

[tall marsh]

nope.

[dreamy crag]

no??? wtf

[storm sage]

No

[dreamy crag]

first, jews dont belive in satin, second, most jews do not belive those things

[wild lantern]

When you frame it like this it sounds like you are blaming them rather than other people being prejudiced towards them.

[storm sage]

Have you ever met a Jew

[magic python]

Do statistics believe in satan

[tall marsh]

not always.

[magic python]

Fuck autocorrect, Satanists.

[storm sage]

No

[tall marsh]

which is about jews?

[storm sage]

At least the atheist ones, no

[wild lantern]

Statistanics

[lost spruce]

90% of discussy has not met a jew

[magic python]

I know they don't, it's more for freedom and not actually "hail satan" from what I've heard

But for some reason many people say they believe in satan

And they are evil

[dreamy crag]

i dont think this is right

[storm sage]

Well they did call themselves Satanists

It's intentionally provocative

[next schooner]

I do not understand problem who comment so confidently on things that they seem to know that they don't actually have a clue about

[magic python]

That is true...

[lost spruce]

im exaggerating but like, i can name multiple times when people who dont know shit talk about this like theyre a fucking theologist

[magic python]

Sorry I just want to learn

[dreamy crag]

main stream judaism is the thing most jews practice and belive

[dreamy crag]

ok very true

[dreamy crag]

like most main stream stuff is not going to even go close to the talmud

it is not

[next schooner]

This was not directed at you

[lost spruce]

such as?

are you telling me the torah has google

[magic python]

Why did the nazis have to burn down the first hospital to have gender affirming care, we could've progressed so far if not for that

[dreamy crag]

main stream id say is the things said in most sinigauges (fuck i cannot spell)

[lost spruce]

or do you genuinely just not know proper sources

[shadow palm]

What was I gonna say here?

[magic python]

I mean i also do/did it though

[dreamy crag]

i think its this one tbh

[turbid ocean]

Is this like a joke channel or do you actually expect people to be serious in discussion channels

[magic python]

The idiot who used ai to make nsfw deep fakes at your school

[shadow palm]

Oh yeah

[dreamy crag]

at most watered down

[true zinc]

That was the expectation and it's been a goddamn disaster

[storm sage]

Before World War II, around one in ten people living in Poland was a Jew, it's crazy to imagine today

[next schooner]

An important thing to understand about all world religions is that all of them have, like, bazillions of internal debates at any given time and often some schools/denominations are just outright either ignored or entirely marginalised by orthodoxy

[lost spruce]

I feel like asking the people who killed 6 million people if they had morals is quite goofy

[dreamy crag]

in which those "crazy belifes" are not belived nor practiced

[storm sage]

I am also wondering this

[shadow palm]

Some guy used AI to make NSFW content of 30-50 girls at my school

[storm sage]

This seems inherently doomed

[turbid ocean]

Okay but wasn't the outcome obvious even without hindsight?

[next schooner]

Though this does seem to be far more the case with the abrahamic religions from my observation

[dreamy crag]

yeah its suprisingly common from what ive seen

[turbid ocean]

Yeah exactly

[dreamy crag]

it sucks

[magic python]

I mean I just want another reason to hate them and to hate medical advances being slow

[lost spruce]

yeah it does but i enjoy talking to most of the people here :)

[dreamy crag]

and it isnt banned at my school

[shadow palm]

WHY?!!

[true zinc]

Yes

[lost spruce]

like uhhh you and rat

and everybody else :)

[storm sage]

at your school...? isn't it illegal

[mellow pond]

what the fuck

yk its reasons like this that i hate the excess use of llms and ai image generation

[true zinc]

That's literally fucking ||pedophilia|| that they're allowing

[lost spruce]

yes!

[storm sage]

for like any country that bans child pornography

[shadow palm]

He also had CSA on his phone

[true zinc]

🤮

[dreamy crag]

the principal said that there isnt anything they could do about and its boys being boys (bascialy)

[true zinc]

Using photoshop is at-lest hard enough most kids aren't gonna do it

[true zinc]

IT'S NOT

[dreamy crag]

hes like 90 years old

[true zinc]

WHAT THE FUCK

[lost spruce]

wait why did we randomly switch from the holocaust to CSA

[true zinc]

THAT IS NOT

[dreamy crag]

yeah

[next schooner]

Yes we most definitely did anticipate that the first several days/weeks in this channel are going to be a fuckin mess

[true zinc]

THAT IS FUCKING NOT

THOSE PEOPLE SHOULD BE IN JAIL

[mellow pond]

absolutely fucking disgusting

did anyone do anything about it?

[storm sage]

seems like this isn't something that's even at a school level, this is a government thing

[dreamy crag]

hes kinda a terrible person

[calm fulcrum]

what the fuck???

[magic python]

"Boys being boys" they say even when the men commit SA

[glass peak]

I’m willing to bet this is illegal and any teacher which didn’t report that should be in hot shit

[lost spruce]

just hide the channel

[shadow palm]

idk, that's all I know thus far

[dreamy crag]

same with my bullies who thretened to ||leak nudes they got of me||

[lost spruce]

just like give it to meta

[dreamy crag]

afaik there isnt like strong evidence of it

[magic python]

People who do that don't deserve a real life.

[storm sage]

I'm not gonna lie, idk what's gonna change in a couple weeks that'll make this channel better

[dreamy crag]

because i dont have the images i techicaly dont have proof

[glass peak]

Teachers generally have a duty of care and still have to report any claims of this

[shadow palm]

First of all, what?!
Second, how did they even get nudes of you in the first place?!

[mellow pond]

i actually fucking dry heave sometimes when i hear ppl respond to sexual harassment/assault/etc. with "boys being boys" or "boys will be boys" what the actual fuck is wrong with people

[true zinc]

BTW being in possession of images, even of your own, can get you in A LOT of trouble as a minor /info

[dreamy crag]

pink being the fucking worst

[dreamy crag]

yeah...

[next schooner]

I shall be implementing a mechanism to bar people from this channel in the same manner that we bar access to advanced channels from users who do not meet expectations

[true zinc]

So even trying to report that, which would require you to have the images to have proof could......yeah

the system is just SO fucked

[tall marsh]

thanks

[mellow pond]

ppl need to raise their damn kids right and/or actually fucking punish disgusting behavior like this

[shadow palm]

Oh hey rat, didn't see you. Hope you're having a good day/night :)

[mellow pond]

splendid

[true zinc]

Many of my abusers got away with.....a week of detention

at worst

[shadow palm]

🫂

[true zinc]

some of them got changed bus seats

I think

[mellow pond]

:(

[lost spruce]

Im so happy i grad. highschool before AI got big big

[true zinc]

one had to repeat a school year and one got suspended before graduation so he had to repeat the year

[mellow pond]

like the last chopper out of vietnam

oh how jealous i am that i couldn't have done the same

[shadow palm]

That's it...?
Man, fuck the American public high school system

[magic python]

Insane that some people can't understand the severity of SA, blackmail, and coercion.

[dreamy crag]

yeah i know, but sadly the girls that this happened to didnt reach out to anyone but the pricnipal afaik (this is not a direct source, but from my own experience, seems very plausible) and are too scared to reach out anymore

[mellow pond]

the worst thing is when people say shit like "maybe [insert name] was just doing it for attention or to impress his friends!" like EW
"just"???

[shadow palm]

Unfortunate that I'm going thru it rn

[lost spruce]

genuinely 😭 i left the hellhole before it got too big

[dreamy crag]

im really sorry 🫂

[true zinc]

AI is a TOOL and like all tools it should be used responsibly by people who know when to use them and schoolkids are not that demographic

[lost spruce]

AI is a TOOL for LOSERS

[magic python]

Society has normalized men being abusers. Even religiously, atleast in the past.

[true zinc]

....I quite strongly disagree with you here

[lost spruce]

and i think if you use it academically you're a fucking loser

[mellow pond]

it's fucking disgusting

[mellow pond]

agreed

[lost spruce]

don't gaf i dont like genai

[true zinc]

When I say AI btw I don't just mean LLMs

[shadow palm]

i mean, it could be useful in some small cases

[true zinc]

That's fair

[shadow palm]

Valid