serious-discussion

[surreal sapphire]

"make it your life"?

this also sounds very wrong lol

there is lots of different kinds of math in cryptography, most of it elementary

but if you want to see more advanced math, you can do that too

i mean just to define a standard notion of security, you need to know what a turing machine is, probability theory and (depending on how you want to look at it) game theory

[true zinc]

meow

[pure hollow]

no.

[delicate tendon]

definitely, im still getting exposed to the basics of it all so I can definitely see that I have a bias perspective

I became a math major and wanting to pursue academia in it because of cryptography

Outside of reading application papers before, im happy to being able to read more theory and mathy stuff now

Oh shoot i forgot i already said that, practically repeated myself soz

[surreal sapphire]

in that case my recommendation would be to take classes in algebra, number theory and elliptic curves and then take as many CS (and possibly even EE) classes as possible

[delicate tendon]

Yep! I have read through Silverman and tate, reading silverman AoEC again for a better understanding in a reading project, and hopefully will progress to some elementary papers on current problems with ec's nearing the end of sem and or even next

I also finished my ug math major, and added cs to get that side too as im only a 3rd year

but in generality it also makes me start thinking about other potential grad school programs since i can either go to the application/discrete side of it all, or do the more pure mathy side of it all since there are two ways to tackle the problem

A couple of options im considering is an Algo,Comb,Graph (discrete) phd, math phd, cs with crypto focus, and of the sort

Thank you for the recs tho!

I also took an AG course and also taking AT this semester

I planned on also sitting in a Hodge theory course but it was honestly too much for me haha

[jaunty ibex]

Hodge theory is great I love it

[delicate tendon]

It seems soo cool, I wish I had a better understanding of the prereqs honestly

We are also approaching hodge theory from a complex geometry perspective rather than algebraic

[jaunty ibex]

I'm planning to read more about these after my course in representation theory

Just realizing very lately representation theory is not my thing lol

[delicate tendon]

Maybe im missing something, but can you explain how rep theory is used in hodge theory?

im also not too familiar with it other than the general idea lol

Atleast from the approach I tried to study about hodge theory, it mainly needed a complex analysis, lin alg, and manifolds background

[jaunty ibex]

Idk the connections but I know they exist. I was just saying atm I'm focused on representation theory

[delicate tendon]

Ohhhh gotcha my bad

[river yew]

@surreal sapphire what I meant by that is that going deeper than a couple of courses in the average uni

[delicate tendon]

Oh also, Loch, are you interested in cryptology too?

[jaunty ibex]

He works in crypto

[delicate tendon]

Thats cool af

[jaunty ibex]

Not as in NFT of course

[delicate tendon]

Yes ofc lol

[jaunty ibex]

An actual cryptographist

If that's even a word

[vast wraith]

cryptographer is more common

cryptanalyst is also a thing but i dunno the difference

[topaz trout]

which one is better for a beginner C or python

[solid snow]

either

[dapper smelt]

Awaa did bad on my calc 3 exam

Chat how do we feel about mint ice cream

I hate it

[topaz trout]

I'm trying to learn both and so far I like C a little better but python has a simple syntax but because I'm a beginner I don't know the power of coding

[topaz trout]

I used to hate it but I like it for some reason

[delicate tendon]

cryptographer works on encryption creation via implementation, cryptanalyst analyzes/breaks down the encryption, cryptologist does a bit of both iirc but i think more mathy

[vast wraith]

lovely

[delicate tendon]

my brain exploded with bliss after talking to a grad student resulting in my realization that Data Science is just topology but with coding theory and different terminology (over generalization ofc)

this makes me feel less out of place

@versed drum

[snow pumice]

I got a question,

what should I study in math for the ACT or SAT exams?

[verbal quest]

the prep guides

[agile fiber]

there are also official practice exams available which gives you an idea of the kinds of questions that may be asked

[dapper smelt]

oh really? i kinda hate it cause it reminds me of toothpaste, is it similar for you?

[long matrix]

[burnt ledge]

either are fine but i think for a beginner better to stick with one than do both

otherwise it can get especially easy to mix things up or get confused about differences

[vivid quest]

Oh we're talking about mint ice cream?

First of all toothpaste is delicious

So is mint ice cream

[dapper smelt]

really? :O+

[vivid quest]

And there is no second point

[dapper smelt]

i cannot agree

but i respect it

[vivid quest]

🐷

Ok

Coffee icecream stays the best

[long matrix]

i did swallow toothpaste as a kid cus i didnt know

apple flavor

[vivid quest]

Is it supposed to be bad?

I always swallow toothpaste

Like

To lazy to get water

[long matrix]

yes.

fluoride

split it out

[topaz trout]

i like drinking cold water with mint gum

[vivid quest]

I do spit out but don't rinse my mouth with water, i just swallow the rest

You think it's ok?

Must be

Just toothpaste lol

[dapper smelt]

dont do that!!

its not gonna kill you, but it might make you stomach upset

with time

[flat harbor]

so we got Big Pharma telling us to not swallow toothpaste now

flips calendar to see 1984 January

[vivid quest]

Radioactive toothpaste used to be a thing

[candid compass]

How's Schoolhouse (the tutoring service by Sal Khan)? What is it like to be a tutor on there?

[proven raft]

integrals are the base of a lot of things tho like area and stuff

[foggy path]

Nuh uh

I mean

[proven raft]

area under a curve

[foggy path]

The way you are expected to get the solution in a traditional way

[proven raft]

antiderivative then

subsitute the x values

minus

done

except like the hard ones

[foggy path]

Like an integral possibly has infinite number of solutions

[proven raft]

ye

[foggy path]

Like the same solution can be manifested into different functions

[proven raft]

derivatives and or differentiation is still the goat

[foggy path]

It can be logarithmic trigonometric or any hypothetical function f(x)

[proven raft]

limits are second

cuz rationalize

but l'hopital is an alt

[foggy path]

I have made few algorithms to rigorously deduce integrals

[proven raft]

how

[foggy path]

Like the same thing can be understood intuitively without that trig substitution or anything

[proven raft]

how

the only way i know is trig sub

is it possible to use u sub

cuz it's like easier

[foggy path]

Cuz it's 1/(1+x²)

[proven raft]

it's a common integral

but like solving it

[foggy path]

You can look it geometrically

[proven raft]

like on a graph?

[foggy path]

1 be the base x be the perpendicular and √1+x² be the hypotenuse

[proven raft]

base as in adjacent

[foggy path]

Wait I can't send images in this channel?

[proven raft]

ye

i also realized

[foggy path]

That's pathetic

[proven raft]

oh i know

[foggy path]

Check dm

[proven raft]

so like

[north topaz]

post in #chill

[foggy path]

Nvm we had a Convo in dm

[neat lintel]

hello guys

can you guys teach me math

[surreal sapphire]

i work in post quantum cryptography and formal verification

but uh, very few people work in actually implementing (new) methods of encryption

my work is more making small improvements to known methods

and somewhat focusing on "small" implementations, think embedded systems and the like

post quantum cryptography is quite ressource hungry (compared to classical methods anyway), so im trying to find improvements here

[green talon]

Can you give an idea of it in a simple way?

[surreal sapphire]

quantum computers break all classical encryption due to shors algorithm

so we need new ways to do public key cryptography

[neon garnet]

do you know how that algo works well? i want to understand it better

[oblique inlet]

Yo people , quick question ❓
What's
ln(0)

[surreal sapphire]

no

[fresh oriole]

undefined because e^x =/= 0 for all x

[oblique inlet]

Thanks , and what's the result for ,,\int ln sinx dx

[fresh oriole]

something bad

where Li_2 is a 'polylogarithm'

actually Li_2 is a known enough polylogarithm to get its own name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilogarithm

[vivid quest]

Why does a factoring algorithm actually help to break an encryption?

[fresh oriole]

roughly because the big encryption/decryption scheme is based on knowing the prime factors of some specially chosen very very large integers

you can think of the prime factors as like a password

(extremely rough analogy)

[surreal sapphire]

all encryption is based on one-way/trapdoor functions, which are easy to compute in 1 direction but hard to compute in the other direction

it is very easy to compute the product of two large integers

it is very hard to factor a large integer though

this is the one-way function underlying RSA

it becomes easy to factor a large integer (that has two prime factors) once you know one of the prime factors

[vivid halo]

This is the best function

[surreal sapphire]

this fact makes it a trapdoor function

shors algorithm breaks the hardness assumption, so this is no bueno anymore

[fresh oriole]

oboy. Tell me about how it's related to modular forms and spectral sequences or something

[vivid halo]

well the first really nice property of this function is that it computes volumes of hyperbolic 3-simplices

[fresh oriole]

I did see something about hyperbolic stuff and simplices on that wiki page. Sounds cool

[vivid halo]

the second really nice property of this function is that it computes algebraic K-theory groups K_2 and K_3 of fields

these two facts are related

[fresh oriole]

whaaat

I barely know what K-theory is but I definitely did not see that coming

[vivid halo]

this is kind of a miracle because K-theory is like, insanely hard to compute in general

there is some general story about how polylogarithms are related to algebraic K-theory it just gets very hard to write down after the dilogarithm

[fresh oriole]

didn't somebody get a Fields medal just for giving a good definition for K_2 or something?

[vivid halo]

but the dilogarithm case is very clean

[vivid halo]

not that I know of?

[fresh oriole]

hm, maybe it was only a PhD.. there's some story about this I recall

[vivid halo]

maybe Quillen for defining algebraic K-theory in general

[fresh oriole]

that could be it

[vivid halo]

but yeah specifically you can write down a length 2 complex defined in terms of the 5-term functional relation satisfied by the single-valued dilogarithm

the cokernel of the differential computes K_2, the kernel computes K_3 up to mild torsion issues which can be fixed

this should be true for other polylogarithms it's just that the functional relations they satisfy get very complicated very quickly

we know this up to K_7 and up to the tetralogarithm

but yeah polylogarithms show up everywhere and they have very simple integral representations

oh yeah the other fun thing from this story is like

if you've seen the analytic class number formula before, it is a formula for the residue at s=1 of the Dedekind zeta function \zeta_F(s) for any number field F

one of the main terms involved in that formula is the regulator which is a determinant of logarithms of units of F

the polylogarithms appear similarly in formulas for \zeta_F(n) at integers n>1

so for example you can write the special value \zeta_F(2) for any number field in terms of (a determinant of a matrix of) special values of the dilogarithm

when F is imaginary quadratic you can prove this by computing the volume of an arithmetic hyperbolic manifold in two ways: first way involves a volume formula involving \zeta_F(2), second way involves decompsing this into ideal hyperbolic geodesic simplices and computing their volumes with the dilogarithm

Special values of zeta functions are arithmetically deep things and this gives you a nice way to study them: rather than considering infinitely many functions with the number field F varying, you can consider a single function but now with its evaluation points varying

[vast wraith]

is there anything algebraic going on here

[frail lagoon]

Eh for you maybe

[vivid halo]

yes definitely

[delicate tendon]

Woah that’s literally what I want to do

[vast wraith]

https://youtu.be/BXwALAkPubc?si=SHjvBJ0Uz1CadnJ5

1.5 million views

[languid lagoon]

i truly despise multiple choice questions in maths

now that i am able to take my studies seriously it's the fucking death of me

written questions are great because you can do a little positing and get some feedback on your suppositions but if you get a multiple choice question wrong they just give you the correct answer and tell you to kill yourself

completely unrelated to the above, is the product of periodic functions always periodic

it seems everyone on stack exchange only wishes to discuss the inverse

[leaden torrent]

have you thought about it?

[languid lagoon]

i have

even put it in desmos

wait

do you mean killing myself or the product of periodic functions

[leaden torrent]

the latter.

[languid lagoon]

right right

at the very least i know that one of my functions is either cos or sin (im trying to answer a question about fourier series) but im just thinking about how those behave when multiplied with some periodic function

[leaden torrent]

the answer is "in general no, but when encountered in practice, it often is"

in particular, if you know the ratio of the two periods is rational, that implies the product is periodic as well

(why?)

[languid lagoon]

many such cases

[languid lagoon]

i gotta figure out the fourier series without knowing the function

so im thinking that i have to see what the period of the innerproducts would be - that way i know what terms will be vanishing by way of looking at the coefficients

[vivid quest]

Ye that sucks

[true zinc]

Is this, I guess, a hard wall to computing K theory? Like...will we need better methods to "write down(?)" polylogs to compute it further?

[vivid halo]

well this is not the only way to compute algebraic K-theory (and the story I am mentioning is pretty specific to fields)

[true zinc]

Ahhhh

[vivid halo]

but like most methods for computing algebraic K-theory blow up combinatorially and are hard to get a handle on

it's a similar problem to computing homotopy groups of spheres, even stably

[true zinc]

oh also, fun thing related to that integral that kinda started this whole convo, about two years ago we walked into the math department and were like "ah what if I try to integrate...say....ln(tan(x))"

That was our first intro to polylogs and it still shows up in my nightmares sometimes

[vivid halo]

like you can do it by hand in low degree, or we can break up the problem into a sequence of easier problems and maybe understand the first couple of steps

[true zinc]

I see

[vivid halo]

but I think these things are not meant to be simple in general

[true zinc]

this just ended up being an exercise in annoying partial fraction decomp and like four change of variables

[vivid halo]

lmao yeah

[true zinc]

oh we failed the exam the week after..which was just anticlimactic

[vivid halo]

rip

[true zinc]

yeah

[vivid halo]

but yeah the dilogarithm is very beautiful and shows up everywhere, the trilogarithm is still quite beautiful but starts to get hard to understand

beyond that it's kind of a nightmare

[true zinc]

wait I still have the pictures on my phone one sec

[true zinc]

I've only ever seen the dilog in that one context, one time when fucking with the gamma function, and once in ryzhik's table of integrals book

[vivid halo]

one spooky thing is that there is a weird complex-valued variant of the real single-valued dilogarithm

[true zinc]

oh boy

[vivid halo]

this is spooky because among other things it lets you define a "complex volume" for arithmetic hyperbolic 3-manifolds among other things

[true zinc]

what's an "arithmetic" manifold?

[vivid halo]

they are defined from arithmetic subgroups of PGL_2(C) acting on hyperbolic 3-space

[true zinc]

OHHHHHH

okay

[vivid halo]

specifically ones obtained from quaternion algebras over certain number fields

when such a hyperbolic 3-manifold is arithmetic and defined over such a number field F like this, then the volume will be related to \zeta_F(2)

[true zinc]

I feel troubled that I still have these mental walls that split "arithmetic" "algebra" "geometry", etc... even when the actual borders and topics starts to blur like crazy at some point

[vivid halo]

most knot complements are like this

[true zinc]

is "discriminant" here at all related to discriminants of polynomials? AFAIK algebraic number fields are related to algebraic numbers and those are roots of nonzero polynomials

[vivid halo]

yeah they are related

at least when the ring of integers have a power integral basis (so it's of the form Z[a]) then the discriminant is equal to the discriminant of the minimal polynoimal of a

[true zinc]

I see

I need some food, brb

[vivid halo]

[true zinc]

[inner canopy]

broke: wow what a beautiful formula math is so wonderful
woke: deriving this is a fucking nightmare

[vivid halo]

this is not so hard to prove actually

[inner canopy]

is it some polylogarithm calculation

[vivid halo]

no

I mean one might want to compute the same volume in terms of dilogarithms later to prove this neat result about \zeta_F(2) but that's after you have this volume formula

the volume formula involving \zeta_F(2) is a volume computation for the Tamagawa measure

you can prove these sorts of formulas for any arithmetic locally symmetric space without any more work

it's really easy if you only care about the volume up to some nonzero rational factor, if you want the actual volume you just have to be a bit more careful about how things are normalized but this can be done very generally without so much issue

[inner canopy]

ah

is there some specific reason why we would want to know the volume of such spaces?

ik there's a similar kind of calculation when deriving the class number formula

as in it's the volume of some lattice

[sonic sentinel]

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyz6e9edy3o
TL;DR A scientist worked years on a biology problem (not niche and had important real world impacts afaiu), asked a research-based AI to work on the same problem as him, and the AI made five plausible sounding hypotheses which the scientist thinks would have taken years for a Normal Human Person to make from the research the AI had access to.

so uh

does anyone have a plan for what to do with the inevitable silicon-based lifeforms which are smarter than us in almost every way

maybe we can tack "dont have any sort of negative effect on humans please" somewhere in the system prompt

that should work right

[vast wraith]

https://tenor.com/view/gato-triste-com-sono-bocejando-cansado-gif-2295619231831500370

[sonic sentinel]

🥱

you could also your way through the whole ai thing and wake up at the end

in which case, hope for soft landings, friend

[limber thunder]

overridden by the openai and intel/mil community system prompts

at least we got decent local models and cheapish cloud infrastructure

[sonic sentinel]

???

doesn't matter whether openai is malicious, they're reckless

also open source models make most forms of ai misuse more prominent

if open sourcing ai is a net positive its because its being used to do productive stuff

you'd run into basically the same problem here if you made everyone on earth more intelligent while keeping them at the same level of compassion: people would be more productive and have to rely less on external authority, but they would also be better able to cause harm to others

(this issue is less important in humans since most forms of increasing intelligence also increase compassion as a byproduct)

kid named probabilities:

oh yeah whats up with higher math and ai

[limber thunder]

yeah I more or less think of this about all tech advancements

[sonic sentinel]

people are treating it as obvious that llms would become good at coding, writing, etc and shit at math

but i havent seen much of an attempt at explanation

aside from like "theres less of it in the training data" or "math uses higher level abstraction", but from what i understand about llms this doesnt seem to explain it too well

[limber thunder]

I don't understand the technicalities either but I'm sure the key is in the fact that they're language models, they're great at tasks that involve generating coherent text, but the claim that they can reason logically is either outright false or they just can't do it at an advanced enough level yet with the constraints on inference and context window sizes

like I have a hunch this is why but I haven't read anything supporting this

[half kayak]

Can you learn logic by just listening to people speak a language?

Can u learn reasoning?

[limber thunder]

a language is organized and hence has some inherent logic doesn't it

hence why things like reinforcement learning seem to be working fine I guess -- let the model explore the training data by themselves and with enough compute time they'll perform decently at other tasks

I guess the question is whether there's a more efficient way, whether this is actually reflective of how we humans learn, etc.

[sonic sentinel]

this is how learning language works

oh logic mb

i read it as language

[sonic sentinel]

they can reason logically, how else would they write functioning code of program ideas that doesn't exist in their training data

black magic?

[sonic sentinel]

people who don't have conversations for extended periods of time tend to end up worse cognitively afaiu

also almost all human reasoning is learned/taught through language

[sonic sentinel]

well yeah, but when people talk about what a language is they're usually including syntax, grammar, vocabulary, maybe some specific cultural nuances, and excluding the actual stuff that that language describes

[limber thunder]

[limber thunder]

funny thing is I'm sure there are authors (from cognitive sciences, philosophy etc.) who actually support the idea that "reasoning" is just a recombination of things much like what LLMs do

I don't wanna yap much bc I'm supposed to be busy and ofc this is not my specialty and I prob should read more

[sonic sentinel]

if you trained gpt4 on random english sentences, only requiring grammatical correctness, you would have a model that speaks random english sentences only requiring grammatical correctness

[sonic sentinel]

for it to actually learn the meaning of what it is saying, there has to be some bias in the training data towards sentences with a certain type of meaning (such as sentences that are true)

[sonic sentinel]

sounds right, but i think of it as "its weird to call reasoning as pattern generalization" and not "its weird to call pattern generalization as reasoning"

i would guess, just intuitively, not a lot of support for this idea, that you see people (both in present time and historically) sort of having a u-shape curve of how intelligent they think animals actually are as they get more experience with them

like: first you're prone to anthropomorphizing the animal, then as you see the mistakes the animal makes you think its dumb, then as you learn more about how the animal experiences the world you become more forgiving of the animals mistakes

[sonic sentinel]

actually, i change my mind on this

from Claude:

However, [...] humans don't learn reasoning purely through language - we have embodied experiences, sensorimotor learning, and causal learning from interacting with the physical world from birth. Language helps us formalize and communicate reasoning, but isn't its sole source.

thinking about the topic more i think a big determining factor in whether an LLM ends up being able to do a certain type of reasoning is how often that reasoning is expressed in terms of language (or at least text that exists in the models training data)

spatial reasoning and object manipulation are good examples, we understand that stuff intuitively, from direct experience, and when we want to communicate that sort of reasoning to someone else you would normally use diagrams with language only playing a small role

[vivid quest]

I'm sure there is data about the impact of modern maths reforms at school on reasoning later

It's a similar problem llm's have to deal with

Ig

[sonic sentinel]

math ends up being an excellent candidate for this sort of blind spot because it relies so heavily on intuition (you know this if you tutor someone in math and start seeing yourself have to verbalize concepts you always "just understood")

also ive heard math people complain that math papers are good for proof verification but tend to be bad for understanding the process used to make that proof

[solid snow]

yes because failed attempts are usually not included

[vivid quest]

I think "intuition" might be just reasoning in another language than formal maths

One that we're more familiar with

Bu i still think language is the major component to reasoning

Idk if it makes much sense (even to me)

[sonic sentinel]

from my experience exploration->solution->proof isn't just removing failed attempts, though that is a big part

theres also stuff like idk what motivated you to think in this way

[sonic sentinel]

wdym

[vivid quest]

The trend in certain countries to reform mathematical education from very early on in the 60's/70's

Which happened to be a very bad idea

[sonic sentinel]

im not sure what you mean, but for the purpose of llms being trained on a piece of language, it has to be published online and included in its training data. a lot of intuition is not.

[vivid quest]

Valid

But we also as humans aren't always taught our intuition, it just appears with experience, why not the same with llm's?

Like textbooks, they don't teach intuition

[sonic sentinel]

its not merely that mathematical reasoning is complex, its that its complex in a way that doesn't let llms learn it

[solid snow]

"it appeared to me in a dream"

[sonic sentinel]

chad ramanujan

[solid snow]

there's also that one guy who was trying to prove his dead friend wrong

[vivid quest]

I'm not sure it bound to stay like that

[vivid quest]

Is it grammatically correct

[sonic sentinel]

this makes me wonder: would ramanujan have been remembered more or less greatly if he could actually describe what the fuck he was thinking?

[solid snow]

i will say that a lot of mathematical eureka moments come up in unexpected times when doing other stuff

[vivid quest]

[solid snow]

theres times where im not consciously thinking of steps or things but just abstractly pushing against a problem in my head

[vivid quest]

From my very little experience, someone very good at maths trying to explain his thought process is rarely easy to digest

[solid snow]

i dont know how this could be translated to llms or if it even needs to be

not necessarily llms either tbf

[solid snow]

@sonic sentinel

[sonic sentinel]

well yeah thats what happens
base LLMs are "taught" in the sense that the stuff its fed on is intentionally made to set the conditions for learning
but nobody's out here giving lectures to random weights

[vivid quest]

Some companies try to feed LLM's things that look as much as textbooks as possible to simulate education

And i think it works pretty well

[sonic sentinel]

I wish I was so smart that people's simulacrums of me started telling them insights in their dreams

[vivid quest]

I don't think it works like that

[sonic sentinel]

fuck its weird to think that far more likely than not some of my classmates have had dreams including me

[vivid quest]

That's normal

I've had dreams with some classmates inside

Well...

Not exactly what you said but...

[sonic sentinel]

bro said well

[solid snow]

lol something that i actually did in a level maths was pretend i was the british examiner reviewing my work and this would unironically give me some ideas on what to do on the problem

[vivid quest]

Is that forbidden?

[sonic sentinel]

if you're an llm you could literally summon another instance of yourself to check your work, i find it so weird this isn't really used

[solid snow]

stand power

[sonic sentinel]

sand powder

[vivid quest]

It is used

[sonic sentinel]

o.o

where

[vivid quest]

But it can't be used to much times in a row before it becomes shit

[sonic sentinel]

oh

like users doing that

[vivid quest]

Idrk i've heard it on a youtube video

[sonic sentinel]

no i meant like something integrated into the actual system

[vivid quest]

Nono real devs do that

To train the model

[sonic sentinel]

mmm maybe you're talking about best-of-n?

[vivid quest]

I need to review the 30min video to find the source smh

[sonic sentinel]

you could just send the video link

does it include a transcript

[vivid quest]

The video is in french

Which is a problem most likely

[sonic sentinel]

i was unfortunately born with a condition that made me unable to understand french

and i never really recovered from it

[vivid quest]

Ok so it's an interview of a researcher at hugging face. at some point, she says without specifying which model exactly that they trained models on their own outputs after filtering them (using other llm's or humans, or running the codes in the case of coding)

And it gives good results up to a certain point of at which it becomes dumb

[sonic sentinel]

yeah thats cool

i heard that was mainly what was happening with all the CoT models you see these days

[vivid quest]

Wait

She said deep mind and gpt4 did that

But "model collapse" happens if the chain is too long

That happens for humans too lol

[ember laurel]

hi i have a question, someone once told me a lot of advanced math is reducing questions in various fields to equivalent questions in linear algebra, which makes them easier to solve

for example the entire field of representation theory is based around this

how true is this statement in general

[sharp mulch]

Pretty true

[unique slate]

https://tenor.com/view/what-surprised-gif-25739412

[stark silo]

so much of the maths I'm doing right now feel like cheating, precisely because we're encouraged to reduce the problems

this exponent too big? throw it out, make it run towards zero and say byeeee

[unique slate]

M.@sharp mulch m mm mm m mm m...,mmmmkm mm mmmmmm mm mmmm.mmm mm mm mm m.m mm mmm..mmmmkmmmmmm,m.mmmv h. Vvvvvvvvv.vvvv vv gvvvvbvb v hvvvvv.vvv v.vv .vv vbvvvh vcvvvg v gv gv v vvvvg cc vvvgvg g vc vvv.g glvvvvvgv g vvvvvv, m mm

[sharp mulch]

<@&268886789983436800>

[hallow quail]

what

[jovial ember]

Just cuz you don’t speak Martian doesn’t give u a right to persecute those who do

[proven knoll]

I agree

[wide patrol]

Hey, I have some problem.

I took part in the programming contest in codechef site.

There was a difficult problem for me.

But interesting

Here is the url.

https://www.codechef.com/problems/GCD_ADD_SIZE

Who can explain about this.?

[verbal granite]

How to find Null Space of ?
Step 1: Row reduce the matrix
Step 2: Find independent columns (which do not have pivot elements) and dependent (pivot elements are there)
columns.
Step 3: Number of independent columns = Nullity of the matrix
Number of dependent columns = Dimension of the matrix

is this correct?

independent columns are pivot columns rght

very confused

[agile fiber]

pivot columns: columns with a pivot
free columns: columns without a pivot
rank of matrix: number of pivot columns
nullity if matrix: number of free columns
i would not use the phrases "dependent columns" and "independent columns", or "dimension of matrix", they are too ambiguous

[normal pawn]

Do you find a woman's softness, sweet submission, and vulnerability appealing—something that evokes your instinct to protect and care for her?

[north topaz]

wtf

[neat lintel]

Yes

Isn't this what the female nature is about?

[fresh comet]

<@&268886789983436800> two bad posts back to back

[neat lintel]

I don't think there is need to ping mods. I mean, the questions are weird ❓ but there's nothing wrong

Btw where is the math discussion channel? Cuz I thought these were math discussion, but they are not

[fresh comet]

#math-discussion is over there!

[upbeat heart]

[half kayak]

No. I trust that she can take care of herself. I find her character something that might make me want to care for her

[gusty socket]

don’t discourage pinging the mods please

[limber thunder]

yeah if unsure it's probably best to ping (or DM @polar panther with a message link) and we'll determine whether it's worth moderating or not

[foggy path]

No

[foggy path]

No

Gender roles are made just to make women look inferior and submissive to men

There's no point of having gender roles in an ideal society

[crystal arch]

Is chess a game or something that makes your more intelegent

[foggy path]

No

[north topaz]

it only makes you better at chess

[languid lagoon]

lord there's this question i encountered when i was teaching last week it's been haunting me

dang ion rmb how to use latex lmaooo

[main elbow]

idk id say there some general transferability

[languid lagoon]

https://www.physicsandmathstutor.com/pdf-pages/?pdf=https%3A%2F%2Factiveteach-prod.resource.pearson-intl.com%2Fr00%2Fr0066%2Fr006621%2Fr00662147%2Fcurrent%2Falevelsb_p1_ex14e.pdf

it's question 4d

it irritated me severely that they just equated the root to 3 instead of expanding the brackets but i cant think of any reason why not besides "i wouldnt do it that way"

cause in my mind the rationalisation is that you "lose" a solution but none of the solutions you get by expanding are the ones they got

[north topaz]

you could also raise 9 to the power of both sides

now recall your laws of indices

ah okay you still get to that step with the 9

[north topaz]

no you could also use the difference of two squares

$(x + 1)^2 - (3(2x - 3))^2 = 0$

[fathom swallow]

south

[north topaz]

or $(x + 1 + 6x - 9)(x + 1 - (6x - 9)) = 0$

[fathom swallow]

south

[north topaz]

yeah then the left bracket gives 7x - 8 = 0 so they've missed a solution

,w 2log9 (x + 1) = 2 log9 (2x - 3) + 1

[fathom swallow]

Results provided by WolframAlpha

Click here to refine your query online
Upgrade to WolframAlpha Pro!

Requested by sooouth.

[north topaz]

ah you have to sub into the original, wait

yeah turns out it doesn't work

,calc (8/7 + 1)/(2 * 8/7 - 3)

[fathom swallow]

Result:

-3

[north topaz]

this is negative sorry so you can't take the log of a negative number

[languid lagoon]

ive gotten 8/5 and 10/7 tho, if it was a missing solutions thing wouldnt at least one answer be the same?

[north topaz]

yeah that's very clever, recognising the inside of the log has to be positive

so it must equal 3

normally you get two solutions yes

to a^2 = b^2

[languid lagoon]

right

like just taking a=b is a little rogue is it not

[north topaz]

they should justify it yes

but you need to remember the domain of any logarithm

[languid lagoon]

is x>0 ouioui

[foggy path]

No

[languid lagoon]

but that doesnt necessarily mean that i cant solve it by expanding cause i could very well not get a negative value (as you see by my solutions)

[north topaz]

I'd say you become a better thinker about strategy

[north topaz]

but that doesn't mean you become more intelligent

[foggy path]

Intelligence is just a small factory in it

[north topaz]

if your steps aren't all reversible

[foggy path]

It's mostly about super fast working memory

[north topaz]

you need to check every solution you get by subbing back into the original

[foggy path]

You need to have exceptional working memory inorder to be a chess prodigy

[languid lagoon]

right right

[north topaz]

like a^2 = b^2 is the non reversible step

cause it can come from a = b or from a = -b

everything else can be reversed

[languid lagoon]

ah is that why my further math teacher liked it so much

[foggy path]

Creating chess strategies require intelligence

[languid lagoon]

that's their mistake then isnt it

[foggy path]

But being a good chess player

Not necessarily

[north topaz]

it's not a mistake

[languid lagoon]

sec

[brazen mulch]

wtf is question 3d saying 💀

[sharp mulch]

[languid lagoon]

sksksksk that's a typo in the textbook it's written z sqrt y

[sharp mulch]

real maffs moment

[languid lagoon]

this textbook series has so many mistakes lmao when i was a student it was never a surprise for us to ask a teacher to clarify something and he was like no shit ur right the book is wrong

now i am the teacher who must do this

[brazen mulch]

honestly, why wouldn't they write log_a(sqrt(y)z) instead 💀

ass notation

[languid lagoon]

ok i accept that 2 is the only solution having substituted back but i have no clue why doing it the way i did it only yielded incorrect solutions

[languid lagoon]

i couldnt tell you 😭 they just write anything

[brazen mulch]

ye 😭

(yoo same pronouns)

[languid lagoon]

[neat lintel]

No need to enforce your feminist ideology onto me; i believe that's the qualities of the female nature and my beliefs will remain that way

[neat lintel]

Bring an argument and prove why that's bad

[teal lynx]

You wanna know why?

We first show that $\Phi$ is linear. Let $v, w \in \mathcal{D}_pM, k \in \R$, and let $f \in C_p^\infty(M)$. Then
\begin{align}
\Phi(v + kw)(f) = (v + kw)([f]_p) = v([f]_p) + kw([f]_p) = \Phi(v) + k \Phi(w)
\end{align}
so $\Phi$ is linear.
\medskip\newline
Now define $\Phi^{-1}: T_pM \to \mathcal{D}_pM$ by $\Phi^{-1}(v)([f]_p) = v(f)$. We need to show that $\Phi^{-1}(v)$ is well defined, that it really does send elements of $T_pM$ to elements of $\mathcal{D}_pM$, and that it really is the inverse of $\Phi$.
\medskip\newline
To show that $\Phi^{-1}(v)$ is well defined, suppose that $f$ and $g$ are smooth real functions such that $[f]_p = [g]_p$. Then by definition, $f \equiv g$ on some open neighbourhood $U$ of $p$. This implies that $v(f) = v(g)$, which in turn means that $\Phi^{-1}(v)([f]_p) = \Phi^{-1}(v)([g]_p)$. This proves that $\Phi^{-1}(v)$ is well defined.
\medskip\newline
To show that $\Phi^{-1}(v)$ is really an element of $\mathcal{D}_pM$, we need to show that it is linear and satisfies the product rule. Thus, let $[f]_p, [g]_p \in C_p^\infty(M)$ be arbitrary, let $k \in \R$, and suppose $v \in T_pM$. Then
\begin{align}
\Phi^{-1}(v)([f]_p + k[g]_p) & = \Phi^{-1}(v)([f + kg]_p)
& = v(f + kg)
& = v(f) + kv(g)
& = \Phi^{-1}(v)([f]_p) + k \Phi^{-1}(v)([g]_p)
\end{align}
and
\begin{align}
\Phi^{-1}(v)([fg]_p) & = v(fg)
& = f(p)v(g) + g(p)v(f)
& = f(p)\Phi^{-1}(v)([g]_p) + g(p)\Phi^{-1}(v)([f]_p)
\end{align}
which proves that $\Phi^{-1}(v)$ is indeed linear and satisfies the product rule. Thus, $\Phi^{-1}$ does in fact send elements of $T_pM$ to elements of $\mathcal{D}_pM$.
\medskip\newline
To prove that $\Phi^{-1}$ is the inverse of $\Phi$, let $v \in T_pM, w \in \mathcal{D}_pM$ and compute for any $f \in C^\infty(M)$ and $[g]_p \in C_p^\infty(M)$:
\begin{align}
\Phi(\Phi^{-1}(v))(f) & = \Phi^{-1}(v)([f]_p) = v(f)
\Phi^{-1}(\Phi(w))([g]_p) & = \Phi(w)(g) = w([g]_p)
\end{align}

That is why

[fathom swallow]

ASda

LaTeX source sent via direct message.
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l.49 ...ar. Let $v, w \in \mathcal{D}_pM, k \in \R
                                                  $, and let $f \in C_p^\inf...
The control sequence at the end of the top line
of your error message was never \def'ed. If you have
misspelled it (e.g., `\hobx'), type `I' and the correct
spelling (e.g., `I\hbox'). Otherwise just continue,
and I'll forget about whatever was undefined.```

[teal lynx]

<@&268886789983436800> Free gift for all your moderating work

Someone is gonna get vanished

[languid lagoon]

abdalghaffarさんの金玉は三時間後で消えます。

[neat lintel]

<@&268886789983436800>

[wild lantern]

Don't troll

[wild lantern]

Nobody asked you for your misinformed take on gender roles either.

[neat lintel]

Happy to read an argument :p

[wild lantern]

I'm not asking to argue with you about gender roles. I'm asking you to stay out of arguments that cause mod pings.

[inner canopy]

this is the most basic bitch shit I've ever heard

what do we live in

1950 lmao

"instinct to protect her"

lmao

you can't make this shit up

[neat lintel]

Doable

[wild lantern]

Thanks 🫡

[terse fiber]

nah. sounds to be like incompetence. and walking problem.

[foggy path]

That's the reason why women lagged so behind throughout the history

Well your perspective of what a women should be will only work in a society of fools

An ideal human should attain his own individuality

Being enforced a gender identity is pathetic

The difference must only be biological

Not sociological

[foggy path]

All the traits you have mentioned just to make them inferior to males that's what society has been doing since ages and it's pathetic

And even majority of women have nothing against it they just blindly follow the same

Women should be just like men ( excluding biological differences )

[keen monolith]

https://beacons.ai/glowrish

[foggy path]

In simple sense an ideal women should abolish the feminine identity/nature

[neat lintel]

women were heros back then

men were caretakers of women and women were caretakers of men

with different rights

you still havent explaained why its paathetic though

[neat lintel]

argument?

from what ive seen the more power women get the more destructive and degenerate society is

simple observation; and thats a objective fact

[foggy path]

@neat lintel what do you want a woman to be like?

[neat lintel]

married women should be house wives

[fresh comet]

you’ll have to elaborate on this a bit more, I fear

this is not an obvious fact, if true at all

and I highly doubt it’s true

[foggy path]

Only a fool wanna live that life

So you mean women are dumb?

You really want your partner to be a housewife?

[foggy path]

Well these roles only work in a society with low intelligence

[neat lintel]

no

[foggy path]

I mean society is already so dumb where majority is religious

[fresh comet]

that’s also a dangerous perspective to have, imo

[foggy path]

Nuh

The concept of God should be separated from these pre-existing religions

[royal condor]

I'm new here

[fresh comet]

welcome to mathcord!

[royal condor]

Thx

[foggy path]

Bruh literally said "should be"

[neat lintel]

I'm saying they should fulfill their duties, which include managing the household and family at a minimum. In summary, I don't believe women should have political power or be able to become leaders, aka patriarchy. I could give you examples of amazing women who were submissive housewives and at the same time scholars, and also their negative influences at a point where they had political power.

[foggy path]

Amazing who?

Give examples

I am not talking about the political power

[neat lintel]

Umm Darda, Fatima bint Muhammad, Aisha bint Abu Bakr, Umm Salamah, Shuhda al-Baghdadiyya

[foggy path]

I am talking about individuality

[neat lintel]

These were teachers and submissive wives at the same time

[neat lintel]

I agree

[foggy path]

Wth

Elaborate

[neat lintel]

read about their biography

they were influential women in the islamic golden ages (and early islam)

[foggy path]

What's islamic golden age is all about?

[royal condor]

Wtf, are people still discussing femininsm in 2025?

[neat lintel]

all about sciences and knowledge and debates and Islam.

Governed by the sharia divine law

Ottoman and abbasid for example

[foggy path]

Nuh i ain't calling them educated by that mean

[neat lintel]

alaot of historians complimented how they structured societies and gender roels

[neat lintel]

some of the muslims there are some of the smartest recorded intellectuals

[foggy path]

All the women should be housewives?

[neat lintel]

yes, but not restricted to

[foggy path]

Yes?

[neat lintel]

yes

[foggy path]

What if your future wife denies to be a housewife

[neat lintel]

divorce

[foggy path]

Don't marry bro @neat lintel

[supple flame]

https://tenor.com/view/fact-check-kellanrockssoccer-gif-2569170256995872124

A married woman can be a house wife if she wishes but by no mean should she be locked down into that role only

[neat lintel]

my christian family are comfortable with it and my mother is a amazing teacher

[foggy path]

@neat lintel what if you were a woman?

Would you have done the same?

Be a housewife?

[neat lintel]

Not purely a housewife

like I sid

we need women for more things

teachers and etc

[foggy path]

Why can't a man do the households?

[neat lintel]

because a man by the masculine nature has the physical and mental capability to work and take care the wife or wives along with an potential family

[foggy path]

So you mean men are mentally superior to women?

[foggy path]

Physical capabilities have nothing to do much nowadays

[karmic spear]

yo

what are we discussing

[foggy path]

We are not in stoneage anymore

[neat lintel]

in what aspects?

[neat lintel]

not true

[foggy path]

That's what you said

[neat lintel]

there is a distinction between feminine and masculine aspects

thats just the coin toss nature we are born in

[foggy path]

Most of the feminine nature the women develop is because of the surroundings and the way they are grown up

[clever quail]

Guys I study in class 11 and I have discovered some theorems in mathematics so where can I publish them

[neat lintel]

this was common in 1800s and by mid 1900's lol

[foggy path]

Like what theorems?

Most probably they have already been discovered by somebody else

Happened with me too

[karmic spear]

how physical capabilities matter today bro 😭

[neat lintel]

care to showcase ?

[foggy path]

I have discovered tons of theorems and what I got to know they were already discovered by somebody else 100's of years back

[karmic spear]

Its all about presenting yourself

[neat lintel]

military?

[clever quail]

Factronomials
Exponential theory
Fractional power series

[karmic spear]

if you talk about women filling these roles yes

[foggy path]

I agree on this point

[clever quail]

Yeah sure but they are still not complete I will complete them till 22 march

[karmic spear]

statistically there are men born w/ fked up hormones that cant lift a log and there women who are born to lift strong stuff, but yes like in MOST MOST cases men are stronger and they are more suited for the military

[neat lintel]

firefighters, police officers, farmer, athletes, waste management, construction workers, oil rig workers, ship/dock workers

[foggy path]

That women and men shouldn't have different requirements for military just to give women extra rights

[karmic spear]

strength matters in the military

[karmic spear]

ye

[foggy path]

You are literally describing working class

[clever quail]

If anyone interested then dm me

[foggy path]

We are talking about an ideal man or an ideal woman

They both should focus on their individuality and carry an intellectual pursuit

That's it

[neat lintel]

Im saying the men masculine nature is needed for these important aspects of a healthy and functioning society

[karmic spear]

I dont disagree that these positions must interest men and not women

[neat lintel]

yes but enforced in being housewives if married

[karmic spear]

if ur a woman and u want to be in these positions u must be born with extraordinary nature

[neat lintel]

dude it can be easily multi-tasked

[foggy path]

Wtf?

[karmic spear]

like strength, physicality etc

[foggy path]

No

[neat lintel]

not true

not even steroids could help you

[karmic spear]

how

[foggy path]

@neat lintel there are exceptions

[karmic spear]

there are like, 0.3% of women who are stronger than the average men

idk the percentage actually but y get my point

[neat lintel]

im saying we also need women for feminine jobs aswell

[foggy path]

Bruh yk what

[karmic spear]

career is a career bro why do you make distinctions

[neat lintel]

the ones on steroids lol ?

[neat lintel]

because its problematic

the youth wouldnt developed

[karmic spear]

political career, business career, they are all neutral

[neat lintel]

if both maan and women were aalways too busy the kid would have mental issues and that is proven

[foggy path]

The naturally strongest woman in the world is definitely stronger than an average man

[karmic spear]

yes thats what im saying

[neat lintel]

i have no idea what average means anymore

[foggy path]

You are in a mathematics server

[karmic spear]

if both the man and woman gives the kid an iPad and ignores his development and neither teaches itabout femininity nor masculinity , the kid will have problems

[foggy path]

It also depends upon the kids

For a typical kid

[karmic spear]

but thats like

[foggy path]

Maybe yes

[neat lintel]

not just that

[karmic spear]

its an issue parents will have to manage

[foggy path]

But yes being controlled by gender roles you are just making yourself dumb

[neat lintel]

if the kid doesnt get educated by his parents and doesnt spend time with his parents aswell

[karmic spear]

on how they want to nurture their kid

[foggy path]

@neat lintel

Bro

It's about perspective what's more important to you

[neat lintel]

i just gave you examples of amazing house wives who are probably higher in status than all 3 of us combined

[foggy path]

The society or the individual

[foggy path]

You covered islamic golden age*

And we are not considering that superficial status

[neat lintel]

roman empire is even worse

maybe greeks

im not a historian

but gender roles and rights were established perfectly during the islamic golden age

[foggy path]

@neat lintel what's important for the society isn't necessary a supirior way of life

[clever quail]

Guys does anyone know how to publish a math theorem

[foggy path]

@neat lintel let me give you an example

[vivid halo]

if you are so unsure then you should probably wait instead of rushing lol

[karmic spear]

but society isn't "optimized" if we assign women to the roles they had in the islamic golden age 😭

[foggy path]

There's a restricted area where any individual steps in it gets detonated. There's a danger sign board in the border. There are 100 individuals each individual has assigned its own task and then there comes an animal who couldn't read that sign board and enters the area which gets detonated. Hence the rest of the people now can safely pass that area

And that was only possible cuz the animal was dumb enough to not be able to read and understand that signboard

So according to you being that dumb is an ideal trait?

[neat lintel]

the only thing married wives were assigned with is managing household and kids, but not restricted to house-hold managing

[clever quail]

Pls reply guys

[foggy path]

Dm me your theorems

[raven plaza]

Register an account on vixra and publish

[clever quail]

Ok

[neat lintel]

oversimplifying what im saying ngl

[clever quail]

Ok

[vivid halo]

dm me you draft

I have a phd I can give you a quick opinion

[upbeat heart]

[clever quail]

R u saying to me?? To dm??

[vivid halo]

yes

[karmic spear]

And they were heavily criticized if they were to pursue a noble career

outside of the housewife thing

[neat lintel]

they werent allowed to have roles that allowed them to have access to political influence

but as far as I studied I dont think thats the case for the caliphates

[foggy path]

so people or woman following the same roles are basically foolish and slaves

That's it

Nothing too complicated

[karmic spear]

Science fe

If a woman pursued science

she would be heavily criticized

Science does impact politics as far as I am concerned

[neat lintel]

why would anyone married a dumb women to raise kids though? Women were educated in their youth and had access to free education

[karmic spear]

If you dont allow women to become scientists thats dumb asf bro

even if they decide to get married and all

[foggy path]

Being educated and being intelligent is a different thing

[neat lintel]

same thing

[foggy path]

Why do you want a woman to raise kids that's the responsibility of you two

[karmic spear]

no

[neat lintel]

education helps express potential genetic intelligence

[foggy path]

Not at all

[foggy path]

No

[neat lintel]

learning algorithms and techniques for things doesnt help you think more efficiently ?

[neat lintel]

of course

a man is also responsible

but the housewife is also more responsible because shes not the one working all day to finincially protect them

[foggy path]

Ideal couples shouldn't have kids tho

[neat lintel]

thats a messed up statement

[foggy path]

It will just be a distraction from their intellectual journey

[neat lintel]

ideal couples would give birth to ideal and intelligent kids

[foggy path]

No

An ideal person is not a slave of the society

[karmic spear]

Then the ideal child would need to be facilitated in order to maximize its intelligence 😭

[neat lintel]

Actually I retract this

[karmic spear]

w/ super professors and inhuman teaching

[neat lintel]

wait no

i agree with myself

[foggy path]

If you are talking about general masses

Sure they are fine to follow their surface level way of life

[neat lintel]

thats how it is in the capitalist world

[karmic spear]

Yes and I want to say that

Clarify what y mean by ideal

as the other guy said

[karmic spear]

.

[foggy path]

.

It's just like how animals are useful for human beings in various ways

They are useful only because they are inferior to us

Same for the humans

And the society

"Muslim woman"

Lol

[neat lintel]

the ideal women is a muslim women

[foggy path]

Ok

[foggy path]

No

[neat lintel]

https://www.troid.org/the-muslim-woman-her-status-in-the-ummah/

[foggy path]

Is not about an ideal woman

It's about ideal human

Ideal for the society maybe

[neat lintel]

actually heres a lecture by one of the greatest modern islamic scholars

[foggy path]

That's what you mean

Not objectively ideal

[neat lintel]

debateable

cant make up a opinion/stance if you dont know the roles and qualities of a muslim women

[foggy path]

I already gave you an example

[neat lintel]

your example belongs somewhere that isnt found in the early islamic ages

[foggy path]

It explains everything

[neat lintel]

again not true

islam teaches tht men and women are equal

but born with differen nature, different rights, and different qualities

[foggy path]

Well I have explained everything

Now you if you still can't understand this

I have nothing to say

[karmic spear]

Ideal Muslim Woman fills her role perfectly according to the needs that an "Islamic" world needs

now I dont believe an Islamic world is an ideal world

If y do ok

[foggy path]

@karmic spear wasn't my example sufficient?

[neat lintel]

You havent made a argument against my islamic stance on gender roles though

[karmic spear]

Ideal woman is not the ideal islamic woman based on all peoples' perspectives

only for the Islamic World

[karmic spear]

Yes

[neat lintel]

its not recommended to make a judgment based on something youre ignorant of

[karmic spear]

By the way that example covers a lot on the world of politics and how the elites manage us

but not related to the topic we are discussing

[foggy path]

I am busy rn I will talk later

[karmic spear]

Im not ignorant

[neat lintel]

why do you think a ideal islamic state is not a ideal state in general?

[karmic spear]

Because the ideal Islamic state does not optimize liberalism

[foggy path]

@neat lintel what about couples without any child ? According to u?

[karmic spear]

And I believe individualism, political equality etc are way more important in our society than anything else

Freedom is everything

If you take humans as work machines and you optimize them on a massive scale then life becomes dull

If you want to make an empire sure

[neat lintel]

Liberalism is where a country is ran by human-made laws that are always problematic

[neat lintel]

so youre a communist?

[karmic spear]

But if you are talking about life in general, living must be however y want to engineer it based on the potential y carry since the moment y were born

[karmic spear]

Wtf

no

how are the things I said associated by communism?

They are literally the opposite idea of communism

[neat lintel]

idk

never came across a scenario like that

[karmic spear]

Every political idea is problematic

[foggy path]

Should they follow the same roles?

[neat lintel]

but a wife who isnt a mother has less responsibility with managing household

[neat lintel]

somewhat yes

[foggy path]

Wth?

[neat lintel]

with cooking and etc

[foggy path]

Cooking is a basic thing both men and women should do it

[neat lintel]

it is basic but not with a stressed mind

[karmic spear]

huh

[neat lintel]

like i said a man should be working and providing for his wife financially

men are caretakers of women and women are caretakers of men

[foggy path]

You are again discussing about the average humans with surface level perspective of life

[supple flame]

How are you guys still at this debate when I shouted the conclusion from start

smh

[neat lintel]

no

[karmic spear]

how?

Every thought of the human mind has flaws

[neat lintel]

of course

[karmic spear]

Political ideas have flaws

[neat lintel]

because its the human mind

[karmic spear]

Systems have flaws

[foggy path]

@neat lintel

[neat lintel]

I dont believe thats applied to the islamic law though

not even terriosts like hitler thought so aswell

[karmic spear]

Yes because you believe that a flawless being created these laws

I believe opposed to you, that a human mind made these laws

and that Islam is nothing more than an Idea

Every political idea is a religion if you view it objectively

[neat lintel]

you think like thaat because youre oversimplifing everything

[karmic spear]

Communism is a religion, Capitalism is a religion, every religion is a religion

[neat lintel]

life is too much to discuss every aspect

[karmic spear]

Or you could say that they are all ideas

idk

History

[neat lintel]

not true

[lunar ruin]

Nah. I prefer the type of person that has ascended beyond that. I prefer to associate with people that are able to take care of themselves.

[neat lintel]

not the definition of a religion

[neat lintel]

humans cant really do that

[foggy path]

Ur just

Nvm

[neat lintel]

at some point youre gonna need to be married

[karmic spear]

History defines it that way tho :p

[lunar ruin]

Then I must be something beyond human if I'm currently doing that.

[neat lintel]

give me a university who defines religion like tht and Ill retract my commentary

[neat lintel]

you will see the effects if you havent and havent lived long enough

[karmic spear]

I don't know, its my perspective, called it fucked up or however you want but I am 100% sure that in the most historical university books you will come to see that religions are history

[lunar ruin]

Or I've just ascended beyond ye mere mortals.

[karmic spear]

If you want to believe that Islamic laws are flawless because some perfect existence made them, ok go along w/ it

[neat lintel]

You advocate for freedom as if you want to take advantage of it and utilize it for learning

[karmic spear]

But in the end of the day if you analyze the system of Islam, politically you will come to see that its an ideology

Atelast on how it applies to politics

Its only just a system

[neat lintel]

You dont need to be a muslim to affirm that

[karmic spear]

With flaws that are ignored because you believe that these flaws are exceeded by obeying a higher god

who claims that your system doesnt have any flaws at all

you believe that this being exists, I believe that this is mythology

Its all about perspective

And thats when you start to shape your different opinions about men and women

[neat lintel]

again you claimed to not be ignorant of islamic law, so if you arent ignorant, im willing to hear a argument proving it being problematic

[karmic spear]

Not being ignorant of a religion doesnt mean I am accepting the claims of that religion

Not being ignorant means I know what this religion says and how this religion has evolved through out history

And therefore, I decide on what stance I want to hold against that

[neat lintel]

then what part of the islamic law is problematic?

[supple flame]

Waiting for someone to bring up islam's approval of slaves

[karmic spear]

man

[neat lintel]

look

slaves werent approved

[karmic spear]

I told you before

wtf

[neat lintel]

islam waas the first religion to free slaves

[karmic spear]

.

[supple flame]

Its sections literally talk about how it is okay to have sexual relations with slaves I don't know what you are smoking.

[neat lintel]

Allah told slave owners to free slaves if they could because if the caliphates freed slaves all at once it would create disastors

[neat lintel]

specific rulings

[karmic spear]

Look

[neat lintel]

concubinage is a valid thing

[supple flame]

lol

[neat lintel]

why dont you talk about the other secular empirs

how they established feudalism

and man made laws

abused their people

[supple flame]

...maybe because the topic is about islam and how its laws can be problematic.......

[coarse bridge]

[neat lintel]

and islam came and liberated these lower class people by giving them rights to education and health-care for free at a low tax rate of 2%?

[supple flame]

yeah true

Islam did actually massively improve things for a lot of people

women were little more than cattle before islam, that much is true

It was fairly forward thinking in its age, but it is no longer that in this day and age

[karmic spear]

Evolution

[neat lintel]

in what aspect?

dont take extremeists as examples

[neat lintel]

If I explained why liberalism is problematic would you alter your beliefs?

[karmic spear]

No because like you, I have a perspective that I have justified on why I think it's the most "suited" for society and the individual

[neat lintel]

im more than happy to break down that tree of subjective validations lol

[supple flame]

Lots of things in islam state that a woman needs a man's premission, sometimes for things a lot of people take for granted, take a look: https://islamqa.info/en/answers/69937/can-the-wife-go-out-without-husbands-permission-in-islam

[karmic spear]

Ok

what are ur thoughts

Subjectivity explains everything by the way you said it yourself

[neat lintel]

I just read it, and found no issues and everything seems pretty reasonable to me when you read the context of the hadiths

[karmic spear]

you are heavily opposed to individualism

right?

[neat lintel]

partially

[karmic spear]

I just can't see a better way of living

You are born

Then raised

whats a better idea than being able to do whatever the fk with every resource you have available to you , while operating like a human , inside of laws and rules

[neat lintel]

fortunately islam doesnt promote divisions

[karmic spear]

well

There will be divisions

And thats a flaw of liberalism

[neat lintel]

and these divisions are the catalysts for conflicts

[karmic spear]

sorry but

[neat lintel]

prophet muhammad for example

[karmic spear]

I think Islam does not have a good reputation for being peaceful

[neat lintel]

told us that it is obligatory to support a poor man or donate to charity or it would result in major sin if one refuses & capable of it

[karmic spear]

but you could say to me that if all people could turn to the idea of the islamic state then there would be no wars ok and no conflicts sure

[neat lintel]

prophet muhammaad also used to feed orphans and play with them, and authentic stories like the blind old man and prophet muhammad

[karmic spear]

but

thats unrealistic

and only just a theory

[neat lintel]

again i said I would engage in discussions if you dont bring up extremist groups which 99% of the scholars condemn

they violated quranic rulings

[karmic spear]

alright

[neat lintel]

there will be conflicts no matter what, but not noticeable and not very significant

thats just something we can minimize but not eliminate

human-maade laws are the worst when it comes to reducing these types of issues

[foggy path]

Sharia is made by human

[neat lintel]

even democracy is childish compared to islamic law if you truly understood both philosophically

[karmic spear]

As I said, I believe your laws and human made

Ok?

So

[neat lintel]

not in my view

[foggy path]

God made Sharia?

[karmic spear]

I cant see your point from that perspective

Im irreligious

[neat lintel]

if you can show one flaw in the sharia I would leave islam because mistakes occur by humans

[neat lintel]

yes

[foggy path]

🙂

Are you being sarcastic?

I guess no

You are serious

[neat lintel]

thats why freedom exists 🤷‍♂️ I just hope you utilize it and take advantage to rectify your beliefs

[karmic spear]

Well, if that's what you believe I cant change your perspective

[neat lintel]

im very open minded

[karmic spear]

We could just agree that we disagree

[foggy path]

How was god created?

[neat lintel]

and willing to hear arguments

[foggy path]

Yk what

[karmic spear]

Ahan , are u religious btw?

[neat lintel]

https://quran.com/en/al-ikhlas

[foggy path]

No

[karmic spear]

Alr

[foggy path]

@karmic spear you?

[karmic spear]

me neither

im agnostic

[foggy path]

I am agnostic atheist

[neat lintel]

4 verses of clarification

[karmic spear]

yes agnostic atheist

[neat lintel]

anywaays ima go now I had a nice time discussing with you guys

[foggy path]

But yes the idea of god what religions claim is definitely wrong

[karmic spear]

Have a great day

[neat lintel]

you too : )

[karmic spear]

wdym

[tight copper]

Hmm

[vivid halo]

most religious texts are often laughably false if you're judging them at the level of literal factual truths, but that's also kind of not the point and value of those texts

"earth is 6000 years old" or whatever lol

[karmic spear]

Simplified I just believe that:, Humans had insecurities and tried to explain stuff. Humans then tried to explain stuff through out gods and religions. Then they made the idea of religion more sophisticated and "reasonable". Then they used these ideas in order to create political systems and justify both how they will operate and things they cannot discover through their perception (metaphysics.). Which as a thought is very flawed because it comes from a human. But the world is so random and absurd that you cant reject metaphysics, so I take my stance as being agnostic. Most religious texts (bible, quran) are very "human" if you read them and you could also say that its pure mythology. Thats why I dont reject the idea of something higher we cannot even imagine, but I completely reject the idea of religions. Because they are super flawed

and they defy truths yes as y said

I can only see how religion has benefited the political world even tho I believe political systems without any base on religion are better and I am not a communist

[vivid halo]

they are very human and there is a very big range of how you can pick and choose from the texts, like even if you are agnostic you can derive lots of profound lessons and meaning from a lot of these texts, and even if you are religious you can find plenty of ways to extract excuses to excuse one's own awful bigoted behavior

[karmic spear]

yea

they are ok as philosophies

but there are things y must filter out tbh

[vivid halo]

I prefer that religion would have less of an influence on society but this is still a lot better overall than mass nihilism

[supple flame]

I personally prefer myths as stories but I can see why people prefer them as religions

[karmic spear]

yeah

[vivid halo]

yeah I enjoy mythology a lot even as an atheist and I've got a lot of meaning from reading various religious texts from time to time in this way

[karmic spear]

thinking about metaphysics and forming religious helped a lot w/ evolution I think

and there is more to come

in the future

[foggy path]

It's just there lack of understanding related to consciousness and human narure

Humans tend to relate everything to the other humans

Humans can have emotional attachment to a thing which isn't even alive

They can have emotional attachment to a stuffed toy

The reason?

Cuz the stuff toy tends to have a cuter features similar as a human child which triggers their instict to nurture it

That's why humans can somewhat get attached to these things

Same goes for the concept of god

The thing with humans is that

Most of the things that humans find obvious and evident is just a result of their natural instinct and unconscious influences

[karmic spear]

I agree

consciousness is one of the most interest topics to discuss

[foggy path]

Or maybe everything is already pre determined

Your every action is determined

[karmic spear]

And who do you think is the one who determines?

[foggy path]

It's just a domino effect

Like just take an example of basic physics

Two objects are comming together at a certain velocity with certain path