People 2000 years ago thought that breeding sheep in front of plants and shoots would cause their babies to be speckled and spotted
#serious-discussion
surreal jacinth
No one gets instructions for how to live. If we did get instructions then life would be easy.
glad phoenix
It’s alright I respect your opinion. And you are not far from the truth, they probably did not care, and yet there were supposed to
surreal jacinth
2000 years ago wasn’t thatttt long ago lol
I might have messed up then.
solid snow
People 2000 years ago thought that breeding sheep in front of plants and shoots ...
Obviously this isn’t true and doesn’t mean we should hold traditional beliefs as “instructions”
glad phoenix
No one gets instructions for how to live. If we did get instructions then life w...
Oh, there actually is. But people hate it because it shows how evil there are in their hearts and don’t change.
solid snow
People were also instructed to be respectful to their slavers, yet today we would definitely agree that that’s a morally questionable order
glad phoenix
Obviously this isn’t true and doesn’t mean we should hold traditional beliefs as...
Yes, traditions are very very bad thing, it leads to blindness.
glad phoenix
People were also instructed to be respectful to their slavers, yet today we woul...
You must take in account slaves in that times were different from todays.
solid snow
Slavery is slavery
glad phoenix
Isn’t that contradicting what you just said about marriage
Because these are not traditions. These are instruction
solid snow
You’re making a semantic distinction when there isn’t one
surreal jacinth
Oh, there actually is. But people hate it because it shows how evil there are in...
But still I have to decline towards the prospect of us being given instructions. If we were given intructions then society would be perfect. We would have no major problems, like climate change or global hunger.
glad phoenix
Slavery is slavery
I hear you. But you have to understand what kind of life they had and what a slave meant, it’s like when you have a personal cook. Do you call him a slave
tight comet
Why is this in discussion2
glad phoenix
But still I have to decline towards the prospect of us being given instructions....
I really love that, because it makes sense right. And that’s exactly what the instruction can do in your personal life
solid snow
He enters into the agreement to cook for me on the prospect of pay out of his own volition
surreal jacinth
I hear you. But you have to understand what kind of life they had and what a sla...
Personal cooks are paid, slaves aren't. Slaves are forced to work for free and are not treated well at all.
glad phoenix
He’s paid…?
They were also paid, or given food or shelter
long matrix
slave = forced to
glad phoenix
Personal cooks are paid, slaves aren't. Slaves are forced to work for free and a...
Yes that’s correct.
long matrix
id in fact still argue 'slave' even if paid
but well.
'coorporate slave' is a term.
solid snow
They were also paid, or given food or shelter
but were still indentured as servants to a master. They didn’t have personal freedoms
glad phoenix
Why is this in discussion2
Your quote is good, but do you know what it means
surreal jacinth
They were also paid, or given food or shelter
So are the slaves that work in fields farmers or slaves? I beleive they are slaves because of the horrible treatment.
tight comet
I hear you. But you have to understand what kind of life they had and what a sla...
<@&268886789983436800>
Can we just ban
storm sage
What is going on
glad phoenix
So are the slaves that work in fields farmers or slaves? I beleive they are slav...
That’s why at their time there was a law to treat them well.
surreal jacinth
Well this is interesting
glad phoenix
Can we just ban
For what?
surreal jacinth
That’s why at their time there was a law to treat them well.
There were no laws to treat slaves well.
solid snow
Who would even be enforcing the law?
tight comet
That’s why at their time there was a law to treat them well.
What the fuck
tight comet
Under no circumstances will I tolerate a server that justifies slavery
surreal jacinth
can one of you summarize or link a relevant post
Its a discussion
solid snow
Slaves have no power to leverage against their masters, so who would even care that they were mistreated?
tight comet
Under no circumstances will I tolerate anyone that justifies slavery
leaden torrent
presumably they mean religious laws, but those typically didnt mean they were treated "well"
long matrix
oh fucking hell it began with this
long matrix
Under no circumstances will I tolerate a server that justifies slavery
can you point to the post where they do...
delicate tide
I only have the smallest clue on what the topic of discussion is but i'd like to share my own input :- Philosophically we're all a slave to something, or someone lol
long matrix
cus skim reading just tells me this is a discussion
discussion in the sense no ones purposely being a troll
glad phoenix
Dear people, that’s why slavery in 2000 years ago is different from now. It has no meaning to treat them the same.
surreal jacinth
Under no circumstances will I tolerate anyone that justifies slavery
Reminds me of Florida's woke things that state that black people benefited from slavery.
I hate that
solid snow
If you treat slaves “well” (whatever that means), you’re still robbing them of their agency which makes you a hypocrite, no matter how good you think your intentions are or how justified you think the circumstances are
tight comet
I don't think there's discussion when one's speaking of 'treating slaves well'
long matrix
I don't think there's discussion when one's speaking of 'treating slaves well'
wasnt that a historical reference
tight comet
That doesn't really matter
long matrix
🤨
leaden torrent
since youre referring to "slave laws" i'm assuming you mean the ANE?
long matrix
its a fact some slave owners treated their slaves better than others, say in Roman times
leaden torrent
ANE slavery was very very harsh
solid snow
Dear people, that’s why slavery in 2000 years ago is different from now. It has ...
Why are we measuring and drawing a line to which extent slavery is “bad”? What does it take for it to be excused in your view?
tight comet
oh fucking hell it began with this
Plus this is already a bad sign
long matrix
yeah i dont disagree that was a bad sign but well
tight comet
The self-righteousness on top
long matrix
i didnt spot anything out of hand myself
leaden torrent
like there were religious laws for the treatment of slaves but most of them were very basic stuff like "dont kill them" and "dont impregnate them"
glad phoenix
Why are we measuring and drawing a line to which extent slavery is “bad”? What d...
What they names as slavery back then, has nothing to do what we can see now.
surreal jacinth
its a fact some slave owners treated their slaves better than others, say in Rom...
That was because some romen slave owners had morals and treated them well.
leaden torrent
ANE slavery was definitely slavery
it was legalized and institutionalized bonded servitude
it wasnt chattel slavery sure
but it was absolutely slavery by any modern definition
storm sage
Imma just let Nami handle this
leaden torrent
especially slaves working mines or fields, which was the vast majority
long matrix
That was because some romen slave owners had morals and treated them well.
I dont know about morals lol - but anyone with a brain would probably eventually figure the best way to extract max productivity is what id say
to be blunt.
leaden torrent
(most ANE scholars put the numbers at like 80% mine & field workers)
("house slaves" were very rare relatively)
wet mortar
tf going on here
surreal jacinth
I dont know about morals lol - but anyone with a brain would probably eventually...
Yes, its not wrong to extract mass productivity but using slave labor is no no for me.
prisma plinth
tf going on here
Same
leaden torrent
(a lot of slaves were owned by temples or priests and did religious functions, which is why theres so many religious laws about them)
surreal jacinth
tf going on here
Discussion about slavery
leaden torrent
(a large portion of the P source is dedicated to slave laws)
solid snow
What they names as slavery back then, has nothing to do what we can see now.
You realize this is just not historically correct though right
Like objectively not true
leaden torrent
(a large portion of the P source is dedicated to slave laws)
as well as the D source ofc
solid snow
It was still slavery
long matrix
i cant even parse that sentence lol
It was the social norm back then in some communities to have slaves, but theres a reason why it all got eventually abolished
surreal jacinth
as well as the D source ofc
Interesting how its put that Female slaves are equal to male slaves. Is that the first evidence of equal rights between women and men?
leaden torrent
the ANE didnt really have a concept of "rights" in the first place
long matrix
You could say every owner was partially guilty while the most at fault was society
surreal jacinth
the ANE didnt really have a concept of "rights" in the first place
True
leaden torrent
the D source was principally concerned with religious laws as they affected temple rites and rituals
so its possible that this was more of an "equal before YHWH" thing rather than a legal reality
it's unsure
a bit more recent than the hebrew bible, but Philemon is a letter where Paul borrows a slave from Philemon and overstays the terms of the contract
he has to explicitly request the slave not be punished
since it was Paul who violated the contract, not the slave
this suggests that slaves were seen as figures with autonomy but were not seen as figures with legal rights
since Paul has to explicitly plead Philemon to not mistreat his slave
glad phoenix
That was because some romen slave owners had morals and treated them well.
And that’s the point. It’s not about slavery or global warning.
But righteousness and repenting from sin. That’s why I asked what sin you commit, because I know you do keep sinning, because the heart of man desires evil.
Unless you repent guys, you will perish. You are not having consciousness for fun, it’s written on your hearts because after death the judgment.
You must repent guys. It doesn’t matter what job you have, what friends and family, and desire to help the Earth, no matter what good heart you have.
Death is the proof of sin. You are now floating in the universe, your hearts are beating on its own. You were made by the creator who is Holy and will judge you once you die and no longer will be on earth.
Thankfully Jesus paid the fine and is able to change you, as He changed me and I turned from all sin.
May you be blessed by this discussion. Never stop being hungry for the truth, it’s your precious life.
I see you.
leaden torrent
(some Christian apologists interpret Philemon as referring to a runaway slave but there isnt any evidence for this in the text itself)
(it's entirely a post-hoc interpretation)
(which is fine but it's not in the text)
leaden torrent
And that’s the point. It’s not about slavery or global warning.
But righteousn...
cool bro
long matrix
You must take in account slaves in that times were different from todays.
what are 'todays' I wonder 🤨
Not saying they don't exist at all, but it would be illegal everywhere
leaden torrent
fwiw i wouldnt say the bible was "pro-slavery" since that implies that there was a debate in the ANE about slavery
slavery was just a fact of life back then
it just was
surreal jacinth
And that’s the point. It’s not about slavery or global warning.
But righteousn...
Ok, very interesting.
leaden torrent
you couldnt be "pro-" or "anti-" slavery since no one disputed whether slavery was a valid institution
neither the hebrew bible nor the new testament are particularly unusual in laying out slave laws, we have a lot of records of such laws from neo-assyria for example
though i do believe the new testament is a bit more forgiving towards slaves than most sources from that era
leaden torrent
fwiw i wouldnt say the bible was "pro-slavery" since that implies that there was...
it's hard to give a good modern comparison that doesnt downplay the horrors of slavery but like
as a very bad analogy
imagine in 500 years we've abolished debt
it's seen as an abusive relic of the past
would someone be characterized as "anti-debt" nowadays if they opposed debtor's prisons?
no, that's a mainstream view but it doesnt make you "anti-debt"
glad phoenix
Ok, very interesting.
Hopefully you consider this, your heart was very opened and you seemed genuine. There is more to life then global warming. I hope it sparks a light of interest
leaden torrent
and similarly if you support student loans that doesnt make you "pro-debt"
its just not the way the debate is framed
debt just is a fact of life right now, no one debates whether or not it should exist
similarly, slavery back then was just a reality
(it is worth noting that both Paul and Luke have passages that are often read as saying "slaves, don't try too hard to get free, for when the end times come we will all be free and equal before God")
(the implication being that the end times would come soon)
(but again i wouldn't view this as pro-slavery)
(you could argue it's just trying to give slaves a bit of hope to grasp on to)
surreal jacinth
Hopefully you consider this, your heart was very opened and you seemed genuine. ...
Yup, it was a interesting discussion and I learned more. Deep Discussions like these interest my mind.
glad phoenix
Yup, it was a interesting discussion and I learned more. Deep Discussions like t...
I am willing to even deepen it, because there is no end to it. Doesn’t have to be today. But just know, your time is limited, and pay attention to your heart.
leaden torrent
Exodus also seems to forbid forced enslavement of freedmen for what that's worth
leaden torrent
Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.
- Exodus 21:16
glad phoenix
My heart desires good, not evil
That’s a lie, and you know it.
storm sage
Not really
leaden torrent
however it does not condemn ancestral slaves, or slavery as a punishment for crime, or debt bondage
or things like that
storm sage
What's the evidence that you are using to conclude that?
leaden torrent
just the very specific action of "steal[ing] a man"
surreal jacinth
I am willing to even deepen it, because there is no end to it. Doesn’t have to b...
Yup, I would be interested in deepening it. But I have to go eat lunch.
leaden torrent
i.e. unjust enslavement by a slaver
Deuteronomy 20:10-15 equates PoWs as slaves
10 “When you draw near to a town to fight against it, offer it terms of peace. 11 If it accepts your terms of peace and surrenders to you, then all the people in it shall serve you at forced labor. 12 But if it does not accept your terms of peace and makes war against you, then you shall besiege it, 13 and when the Lord your God gives it into your hand, you shall put all its males to the sword. 14 You may, however, take as your plunder the women, the children, livestock, and everything else in the town, all its spoil. You may enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the Lord your God has given you. 15 Thus you shall treat all the towns that are very far from you, which are not towns of these nations here.
long matrix
That’s a lie, and you know it.
So what Good do you get out of gaslighting everyone who ain't on the same page as you lol. That's not how shit works
leaden torrent
basically if a town surrenders to you, you can submit them to "forced labor"; if it doesnt, you can slaughter their men and take their women and children as spoils
glad phoenix
What's the evidence that you are using to conclude that?
Because it’s written “The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked.”
leaden torrent
but this specifically applies to "towns that are very far from you"
i.e. not ethnic or cultural bethren
glad phoenix
Yup, I would be interested in deepening it. But I have to go eat lunch.
You can always reach me out of you truly want. Have a good meal
storm sage
Because it’s written “The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and d...
That's not evidence, you're just quoting something
leaden torrent
the Hebrew bible in general forbids enslavement or forced labour of Hebrews
storm sage
I can also quote things
leaden torrent
the Hebrew bible in general forbids enslavement or forced labour of Hebrews
(though we have archeological evidence that this wasn't followed at least during the Second Temple period)
long matrix
Please eric, no Rudin for today
leaden torrent
(and certainly not during Roman-era Christianity)
glad phoenix
So what Good do you get out of gaslighting everyone who ain't on the same page a...
It’s not for my benefit. I just want you to think deeper about life. I believe many people don’t talk about it
glad phoenix
I can also quote things
Judge yourself, whether what I quoted is true. It was written more than 2000 years ago.
leaden torrent
plenty of things were written 2000 years ago
storm sage
Judge yourself, whether what I quoted is true. It was written more than 2000 yea...
I can also quote things written more than 2000 years ago
leaden torrent
personally i get my sense of morality from the gospel of judas
storm sage
I already have judged
I judge that what you quoted was false 2000 years ago and still false today
glad phoenix
I judge that what you quoted was false 2000 years ago and still false today
Your hearts desires good. Can we test it, will you be honest with me
long matrix
It’s not for my benefit. I just want you to think deeper about life. I believe m...
And I want you to think deeper about how to reach people. A level conversation between parties is the way to go. Not a 'conversation' where one party takes a holier than thou stance to make their points. Right or wrong, no one will care because of how you come across.
leaden torrent
song of songs also has a line that references sexual abuse of slaves but it does not seem to explicitly condone or reject it
it just acknowledges that it exists
unfortunately slaves typically werent well-recorded in the archaeological record as they could not read or write or make pottery or w/e
so we kind of have to go off of what the "upper class" (mainly priests) wrote about the treatment of slaves
which we understand to probably be a sort of "ideal" rather than the reality
as these are religious sources writing laws for their temples to follow
glad phoenix
Okay
Let’s just start with sensitive one, but that one revels the most.
Do you watch porn and unclean videos? Looking on women with lust.
storm sage
Let’s just start with sensitive one, but that one revels the most.
Do you watc...
No
But even if I did, there's no reason a priori that that would be immoral
glad phoenix
And I want you to think deeper about how to reach people. A level conversation b...
Thank you. You can definitely read the conversion again, and see if I was pushing something.
storm sage
Assuming everything was consensual
leaden torrent
Let’s just start with sensitive one, but that one revels the most.
Do you watc...
some youtube videos are only available in compressed 360p, so yeah i watch unclean videos
storm sage
Thank you. You can definitely read the conversion again, and see if I was pushin...
I do think you're pushing something, yes
long matrix
Thank you. You can definitely read the conversion again, and see if I was pushin...
You most certainly are pushing some things.
glad phoenix
I leave the decision on you guys. I will continue with my life. But you heard what you heard
leaden torrent
i mean "you should follow my interpretation of morality because it's in the Bible" is not the most compelling argument for those who don't believe the Bible is the ultimate arbiter of morality
storm sage
If God is, man is a slave; now, man can and must be free; then, God does not exist.
leaden torrent
you must recognize this
storm sage
The idea of God implies the abdication of human reason and justice; it is the most decisive negation of human liberty, and necessarily ends in the enslavement of mankind, both in theory and practice.
Here's my quote
leaden torrent
and many people who do believe in the Bible do not believe in the Bible of "2000 years ago"
storm sage
Have a good day
leaden torrent
(i.e. Jews, Muslims, Gnostics, and post-Nicaea Christians)
tight comet
and many people who _do_ believe in the Bible do _not_ believe in the Bible of "...
This has a critical flaw: it requires people to read
long matrix
This has a critical flaw: it requires people to read
You can believe and be illiterate. sotrue
storm sage
Pre-Luther moment
glad phoenix
Have a good day guys, and life. And afterlife.
Repent from your sin, listen to the law written on your hearts, that’s all. You don’t have to read the Bible and follow traditions like almost everyone I met.
Just repent, and you will see it’s hard to repent on your own. I went through it
leaden torrent
This has a critical flaw: it requires people to read
it requires them to read in Aramaic and Koine Greek too!
and biblical hebrew ofc
what a tragedy!
leaden torrent
indeed we have multiple cases where passages of the new testament that were written in koine greek seem to make more sense when backtranslated back into Aramaic
storm sage
That's wild
leaden torrent
likely because they were phrases that originated in Aramaic and that the writers of the gospels translated into Greek literally
long matrix
first ive heard of aramaic...
leaden torrent
a notable example here is the Aramaic phrase "bar enash", meaning "son of Man" or just "Man"
consider this passage of Mark:
Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath.
the "therefore" seems kind of like a non-sequiteur, or at the very least it's missing a lot of steps in the middle of the reasoning
but if you read it as
Sabbath was made for bar enash, not bar enash for the Sabbath. Therefore bar enash is lord even of the Sabbath.
the phrase makes a lot more sense
likely Mark heard the phrase in Greek but it was passed down from an (unattested) Aramaic saying
and Mark just transcribed it literally
(Mark did know Aramaic but he avoided it)
(which is weird since his Aramaic style is much better than his Greek style; he probably chose Greek as an intentional choice for his audience, even though he was personally far less confident in it)
storm sage
Chaminade is so beautiful
long matrix
how does nami know so much about everything 
leaden torrent
(and ofc, by "Mark" I mean "the author of the gospel of Mark", not the actual figure historical Mark)
leaden torrent
first ive heard of aramaic...
the hebrew bible was written primarily in Biblical Hebrew (which evolved a lot over the ~1500 years it took to be written) and the new testament in Koine Greek
but both contain sections of Aramaic
we get the impression that aramaic was more of a "common man's language" and less of a "prestige/priestly language"
sort of like local languages vs latin in the middle ages
however, eventually Aramaic was used in worship as well
long matrix
I mean yeah - istg I've never heard of the word. Only languages I know of the time are Latin, Arabic, Hebrew (relating to bible stuff)
leaden torrent
and Neo-Aramaic languages exist to this day
long matrix
example?
leaden torrent
Hulaulá
tight comet
wrt to reading I don't mean the old bible tbh. (I think Koine's quite sufficient, if you want to do something like that.) I also just mean studies in general. Not everyone does studies, and I don't think people who do studies really get right messages
solid snow
And that’s the point. It’s not about slavery or global warning.
But righteousn...
i don't subscribe to any of t hese beliefs
so no
long matrix
no jose, dont summon em back from the ded 
chilly hull
Yeah the ancient world gets reduced down a lot in western education
the ancient mesopotamia song living rent free in my brain
storm sage
It's not my precious life, it's Scott Pilgrim's Precious Little Life
solid snow
oh mb i was scrolled up when i tabbed back in
leaden torrent
modern Assyrians also speak Aramaic dialects
Assyrian Crhistians typically speak "Suret" or "Chaldean"
some speak "Turoyo"
there are other smaller languages but those are the big ones
chilly hull
chilly hull
i love this song
storm sage
I remember talking to an Assyrian I knew about history class, and she said that her history teacher told the class that all the Assyrians are gone now
And she raised her hand and was like
I'm right here...?
leaden torrent
most surviving dialects of Aramaic are branches of eastern aramaic though which isnt what was spoken in Jesus' area
jesus likely spoke a western aramaic variant
oh which we only have one surviving dialect, "Siryon"
and it's basically dead
fringe summit
I'm right here...?
Immortal detected
leaden torrent
only a couple villages
and ofc after 2000 years, Siryon is probably nothing like the Aramaic Jesus spoke anyway
i mean look at how much English changed in just 1000 years
read Beowulf or something
unfortunately we dont have that many sayings of Jesus that were recorded in Aramaic, since as mentioned, most of the NT is in Koine Greek
(as well as most apocrypha)
leaden torrent
read Beowulf or something
Hwæt. We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,
monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas. Syððan ærest wearð
feasceaft funden, he þæs frofre gebad,
weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,
oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra
ofer hronrade hyran scolde,
gomban gyldan. þæt wæs god cyning.
fringe summit
Old English 
mental stratus
hopefully i can do some algebra and topology tomorrow
leaden torrent
it's old english yes
mental stratus
🤞
leaden torrent
here's a translation by Gummere:
LO, praise of the prowess of people-kings
of spear-armed Danes, in days long sped,
we have heard, and what honor the athelings won!
Oft Scyld the Scefing from squadroned foes,
from many a tribe, the mead-bench tore,
awing the earls. Since erst he lay
friendless, a foundling, fate repaid him:
for he waxed under welkin, in wealth he throve,
till before him the folk, both far and near,
who house by the whale-path, heard his mandate,
gave him gifts: a good king he!
some of the lines you can see the connection
long matrix
> Hwæt. We Gardena in geardagum,
> þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
> hu ða æþelingas...
it looks like the 'dwarvish' i might see in some fiction too lol
leaden torrent
like
gomban gyldan. þæt wæs god cyning.
gave him gifts: a good king he!
you can see the relation
glad phoenix
> Hwæt. We Gardena in geardagum,
> þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
> hu ða æþelingas...
You are educated, and even speak of existence of Jesus. Even see the history of language.
But even if your know every detail of the Bible and don’t repent. It has no profit for you.
Humans wisdom and knowledge is nothing compared to Gods for by His Will we were made to existence.
Don’t be like the Pharisees..
Everyone can be happy about your knowledge and no one tell you what truly matters. Consider it yourself.
leaden torrent
"that was god cyning" to "he was a good king" (or as Gummere poetically records, "a good king he!")
upbeat shore
h₂áwej h₁josméj h₂wl̥h₁náh₂ né h₁ést, só h₁ék̂woms derk̂t. só gʷr̥hₓúm wóĝhom wéĝhet; só méĝh₂m̥ bhórom; só (dh)gĥémonm̥ h₂ṓk̂u bhéret. h₂ówis h₁ék̂wojbh(j)os wéwk(ʷ)et: (dh)ĝhémonm̥ spék̂joh₂ h₁ék̂woms h₁jós h₂áĝeti, k̂ḗr moj aghnutór. h₁ék̂wōs tu wéwkʷont: k̂ludhí, h₂owei! tód spék̂jomes/n, n̥sméi aghnutór k̂ḗr: (dh)ĝhémō pótis sē h₂áwjōm h₂wl̥h₁nā́h₁ gʷhérmom wéstrom (h₁)wébht, h₂áwibh(j)os tu h₂wl̥h₁náh₂ né h₁ésti. tód k̂ek̂luwṓs h₂ówis h₂aĝróm bhugét.
long matrix
h₂áwej h₁josméj h₂wl̥h₁náh₂ né h₁ést, só h₁ék̂woms derk̂t. só gʷr̥hₓúm wóĝhom wé...
is this some branch of algebraic geometry
leaden torrent
You are educated, and even speak of existence of Jesus. Even see the history of ...
will do
ok considered
serene pulsar
I find the bible to be pretty immoral ngl
ocean harbor
h₂áwej h₁josméj h₂wl̥h₁náh₂ né h₁ést, só h₁ék̂woms derk̂t. só gʷr̥hₓúm wóĝhom wé...
What language is this?
serene pulsar
gaelic maybe
leaden torrent
its reconstructed PIE
mental stratus
boble
upbeat shore
What language is this?
its creole
burnt ledge
its reconstructed PIE
Did they really say "H two awej H 2 w l circle h one na h two" and so on
leaden torrent
no, the subscripts represent pronunciations in PIE lmao
basically PIE seems to have had three separate "h" laryngeals
and we cant quite tell what each of them was meant to be
so we just write h₁, h₂, and h₃
leaden torrent
if you trace the evolution of the sound throughout different descendant languages, they correspond to different sounds in predictable ways
like h₁ becomes [h] in some languages, silent in others, a glottal fricative in others
whereas h₂ basically never becomes [h]
we see some pretty convincing patterns
theres also phonetic evidence
namely with the /a/ sound in PIE
when /a/ occurs it seems to be word-initial
(the example the wiki article i linked is "*anti")
but in some languages instead we see "hanti" or "hants" or similar
(the h sound here isn't quite [h] but close enough)
so in some cases this sound evolved to become silent whereas in others it became a new sound
and this happens predictably
there are many examples of this happening and languages are consistent with how it happens
if you drop the sound at the beginning of "h₂enti" ("anti", against) you probably drop the sound at the beginning of "h₃ewi" ("owi"/"ovis", sheep)
so we denote this sound h₂
there are a bunch of examples of this
burnt ledge
so, how come most of the other letters in pie are like normal letters but these ones we don't know what they are
leaden torrent
because theyre not directly present in any descendant languages
we only guess at their pronunciation based on how the sounds evolved and how they affect the phonetics of sounds around them
(namely how they influence surrounding vowel sounds)
burnt ledge
the ones that dont drop them entirely always change them?
leaden torrent
well, we wouldnt know
is the point
maybe theres a language that preserved the 3 sounds perfectly
but how would we know that?
burnt ledge
but like how do we know that like k was preserved then
leaden torrent
because a lot of languages agree that it was a "k" sound
and the ones that dont went through very predictable and documented evolution
like "k"s becoming "g"s in certain contexts or whatever
burnt ledge
oh right
leaden torrent
but we might be wrong that it was a "k" sound
when we write "k" in PIE we mean "a sound that was probably [k]"
but it mightve been something else
we cant be 100% sure
leaden torrent
maybe it was [g] or [c] or [kx] or something
right
linguists have different theories about h₁, h₂, h₃
i think most linguists believe h₁ was just [h]
h₂ was probably some sort of pharyngeal and h₃ was likely rounded
but thats about all we can say
(and even that is very uncertain)
burnt ledge
pharyngeal sounds familiar butbi dont rmemeve which it is
leaden torrent
it means produced in your pharynx, ie the back of your mouth
english doesnt have any but the dutch "r" sound is an example
burnt ledge
Hmm not fmailiar with Dutch, like arabic 'ayn ?
leaden torrent
yeah
good example
the sound at the beginning of عـين is a voiced pharyngeal fricative
burnt ledge
or the ح, so that (could be, according to some theorists) like h2 ?
leaden torrent
arabic is not a PIE language
but yes, h₂ might have been that sound
it also might've been the "h" sound in "Muhammad" for example
indeed there's evidence for this since in Arabic the ح sound ([ħ]) often causes the next vowel to "shift" towards /a/
the word "muhammad" itself being an example of this\
and we see this exact trend happen with h₂
when h₂ is followed by e, that e often becomes a
as languages evolve
so h₂ might've been the same sound as ح in arabic, or something related
we don't know though
burnt ledge
i find it hard to believe a sojnd like that might just disappear tbh
leaden torrent
well you have to remember that the indo europeans are from at least 4000 years ago
some scholars even say 10000
thats a lot of time for languages to evolve
usually it doesnt just outright disappear
it evolves into a "weaker/easier-to-pronounce" form
especially as speakers of the language intermix with speakers more used to other sounds
and then it gradually disappears or is made irrelevant
burnt ledge
riiight
leaden torrent
like how the "k" in the english "knight" became silent
burnt ledge
right bc it used to not be silent right
leaden torrent
right
leaden torrent
where the "ch" is a throaty sound
long matrix
is the k not silent in german still?
long matrix
like connect
leaden torrent
kinda yeah
(although many english speakers nowadays dont pronounce the "t" in "connect"!)
leaden torrent
i know that when i say, for example, "connect four", i dont say the "t" sound
long matrix
i do
long matrix
connect to the internet, the two t's do combine for me.
burnt ledge
Connec
leaden torrent
also when i say "connected" for example, the "t" and "d" sound end up being the same unless i'm really articulating
"connec-did"
long matrix
mm that ends in 'tid' for me
leaden torrent
yeah you can see how sound realizations change lmao
t's becoming d's or silent is more common in american english than british english for example
(yes "british english" is fake, there are like 40000 different dialects of english in the isles)
(you know what i mean)
long matrix
burnt ledge
If we know what you mean its real
serene pulsar
I bought the rest of the zachtronics puzzle games I didn't have
I'm excited to play them but I should probably finish the bonus campaign of molek and complete shenzhen first
mental stratus
invincibility
tender holly
Does anyone have a hard math problem related to the parabola y = ax^2 + b
static loom
Does anyone have a hard math problem related to the parabola y = ax^2 + b
did you end up learning what the focus and directrix are?
zealous garden
I forgot how to find the focus and directrix, I wonder how hard it would be to derive
burnt ledge
giv it a go :)
static loom
I found a fun trick a while back for finding the focus of a parabola in the form y=ax^2+bx+c
but depends on knowing stuff beforehand, like light emitted from the focus will reflect out and bounce outwards all parallel
that means where y'=1 you have a point on the parabola that is the same height as the focus
the x coordinate is easy, so together that gets you the focus
wraith dock
Does anyone have a hard math problem related to the parabola y = ax^2 + b
- what does a parabola look like at infinity?
- what does a parabola look like over the complex numbers?
long matrix
@ gpt
jagged forge
I know the focus of every parabola up to similarity
solar hawk
Idk what focus or directx is
My class skipped it
And they acknowledged they skipped it
I guess just like daybroken and guass Jordan except they didn’t tell him it was skipped
jagged forge
well maybe you can revisit the general theory of conic sections for funsies, since you’re all growed up now
solar hawk
well maybe you can revisit the general theory of conic sections for funsies, sin...
I haven’t even got hs 😭
jagged forge
well you know enough linear algebra to study conic sections probably
solar hawk
well you know enough linear algebra to study conic sections probably
Yes I do
But how is conics useful
Besides knowing the stuff I already know
solar hawk
to flex those muscles
I have no mental nor physical muscles to flex
jagged forge
sounds like u need to do more math then
solar hawk
sounds like u need to do more math then
I will read lee abstract algebra
zealous garden
I forgot how to find the focus and directrix, I wonder how hard it would be to d...
Hmm I turned the problem into geometric algebra within 15 seconds of remembering it
prisma plinth
1. what does a parabola look like at infinity?
2. what does a parabola look like...
to consider what a parabola looks like “at infinity” usually it’s after homogenizing it and looking at it perspectively
wraith dock
to consider what a parabola looks like “at infinity” usually it’s after homogeni...
I mean, that's the answer. the point of the exercise is to try and give meaning to "at infinity"
dusk thorn
delicate tide
mafs
ripe dirge
Mafs.
true flicker
wizards
wraith dock
mafs!
neat lintel
im pikachu
Hello pikachu
wispy hound
Sorry for interrupting any discussion currently going on here, but whenever and if someone can help me with what is called "Academic Planning" that would be utmost appreciated!
//
background: I failed in 2019 undergraduate math because of this, same for Computing Science 2 years later; and now since I only got the papers to study math at uni, I'm forced to study it again since my student loan years are "drying" but I absolutely do not feel prepared to start again since I still don't have a system that is ADD proof and now in 4 weeks uni starts and my brain is imploding of stress, desperatly need some real complex mathematical guidance, so whomever can and will help me, please do
woven whale
Sorry for interrupting any discussion currently going on here, but whenever and ...
wat
wispy hound
I often fall in hyperfocus whenever working a problem (especially math) then I haven't done anything on other subjects all day, which leads to falling behind, then this pattern repeats and repeats and I never seem to catch up, since I'm not the brightest math student
tacit sedge
serene dune
2761515 kahoot code go in and troll (school)
rare sonnet
2761515 kahoot code go in and troll (school)
what are the questions
hollow jackal
there's a disconnect here between meta language and actual mathematics
writing something like
1 + 1 + ...
intuitively means "add infinitely many 1s together"
but to treat it mathematically we need a rigorous definition
do you get what im saying
cold remnant
$\sum_{n = 1}^{\infty} 1$
fathom swallowBOT
Nomzz1
cold remnant
Yeah
flint basin
That's just notation
hollow jackal
(\lim_{n\to\infty}\sum_{i=1}^n 1)
flint basin
Not a rigorous definition by itself
fathom swallowBOT
maximo
hollow jackal
well what you described sounds like a limit
i can write a rigorous treatment of it if you want
but we'll just end up getting i
cold remnant
But if you are infinitely exponentiating real number
rare sonnet
but we'll just end up getting i
that limit will never be real?
hollow jackal
But if you are infinitely exponentiating real number
this is not a thing
cold remnant
But if you are infinitely exponentiating real number
How can you get a complex number
hollow jackal
you can't do something infinitely many times
cold remnant
No but you can see the value it approaches as you do it more and more times
hollow jackal
yes
cold remnant
You said that value is i
cold remnant
How on earth do we get i from repeatedly exponentiating positive real numbers
Yes please
cold remnant
e^pi/2 is not a real number??
hollow jackal
are we talking about
[e^{\frac{\pi}{2}i}, e^{\frac{\pi}{2}e^{\frac{\pi}{2}i}},\dots]
fathom swallowBOT
maximo
cold remnant
Yes
hollow jackal
these aren't real numbers
hollow jackal
you want to only do e^pi/2
hollow jackal
sure
what about it
im telling you that the last equality he wrote is meaningless
and that we need to somehow define that last term
cold remnant
And when we define it we get i
hollow jackal
it depends on the definition
let me write out 2 ways
which will be basically the same
rare sonnet
https://youtube.com/shorts/IyFuCIS-lgw?feature=share
The comments seem as confused as nomzz
hollow jackal
we can define a function (f:\mathbb{N}\to\mathbb{C}) which takes a natural number, representing how many times we make this "substitution", and spits out a value
fathom swallowBOT
maximo
hollow jackal
this is just a sequence as you can tell
essentially (f(n+1) = e^{\frac{\pi}{2}f(n)})
fathom swallowBOT
maximo
hollow jackal
what we can choose is the initial term
the two examples we're working with are f(1) = i and f(1) = 1
when we pick f(1) = i
every single natural number you put in
will spit out i
if you put in 2, you get (e^{\frac{\pi}{2}f(1)} = e^{\frac{\pi}{2}i} = i)
fathom swallowBOT
maximo
hollow jackal
if you put in 3, more of the same happens
this is a constant sequence
a basic calculus fact is that the limit of a constant function/sequence is the constant value
cold remnant
Ok what if we did this but without the i, surely would it not represent the same value? are we talking about
[e^{\frac{\pi}{2}}, e^{\frac{\pi}{2}e^{\frac{\pi}{2}}},\dots]
fathom swallowBOT
Nomzz1
hollow jackal
that diverges
and is the example for f(1) = 1
so it doesn't make sense to say that thing = i
cold remnant
what if f(1) = e^pi/2
hollow jackal
same thing
you're shifting the sequence over by a term
you just defined a new sequence g(n) = f(n+1)
but it has the same diverging behavior
in short, that infinite tower is never really infinite, and we are looking at how it behaves as we go to infinitely many terms
but we never reach infinitely many powers
so no
i is not real
cold remnant
Wait that’s the same thing nvm
Ik it diverges, I’m asking why does it diverge and why does it not represent the same value
cold remnant
So far I’ve completed A Level Maths
hollow jackal
what material
also let me write something real quick
which is what i suspect is happening
cold remnant
what material
Calculus, trig, geometry, algebra idk
cold remnant
Basically just before university level maths
cold remnant
so you know what a limit is
Yeah
hollow jackal
then you know that a limit to infinity basically asks "how does this function behave as the input gets really big"
compute the following limit for me [\lim_{x\to\infty} i]
fathom swallowBOT
maximo
hollow jackal
and then compute the following limit [\lim_{x\to\infty} x]
fathom swallowBOT
maximo
cold remnant
It converges
hollow jackal
it does not
cold remnant
It’s infinite
hollow jackal
this diverges to positive infinity
cold remnant
You can’t assign a value to it
cold remnant
Oh sorry I meant diverges I’m stupid
hollow jackal
is it ok that those two dont go to the same value
cold remnant
Yeah
hollow jackal
because i and x are different right
cold remnant
Yeah
hollow jackal
that's what's happening in the other limit
we are taking the limit of different things
hollow jackal
there's no reason they should go to the same value
i can tell you're getting it and im going to write something else as well for completeness' sake
we have two different sequences, (a,b:\mathbb{N}\to\mathbb{C}). we define them as follows:
[a_{n+1} = e^{\frac{\pi}{2}a_n},\quad a_1 = 1]
and
[b_{n+1} = e^{\frac{\pi}{2}b_n},\quad b_1 = i]
we then take the limits of each. what i believe is happening is that you are conflating notation for them being "equal"
[\lim_{n\to\infty}a_n \overset{?}{=} e^{\frac{\pi}{2}e^{\dots}} \overset{?}{=}\lim_{n\to\infty}b_n]
fathom swallowBOT
maximo
hollow jackal
the middle just "looks" like both of them
but the middle isn't even defined
and through that confusion, you used transitivity to say the limits of a_n and b_n should be equal
hopefully you see what's happening clearly
hollow jackal
no problem
mental stratus
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLd8NbPjkXPliJunBhtDNMuFsnZPeHpm-0 imma fall asleep to this
faint garden
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLd8NbPjkXPliJunBhtDNMuFsnZPeHpm-0 imma fall a...
Your going to have some jank dreams
echo tundra
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLd8NbPjkXPliJunBhtDNMuFsnZPeHpm-0 imma fall a...
what reference book does it follow? Have you tried them
sonic prairie
Hey how can I be best mathematician in the world?
echo tundra
You can start by defining rigorously what best means?
sonic prairie
You can start by defining rigorously what best means?
Being able to solve problems that cannot be solved by any other mathematician, or have ideas that others can't.
Especially efficient ideas.
echo tundra
Pretty vague and it's not even that useful. Like you can solve a lot of simple problems or prove results no one is interested in. Similarly the efficiency of a idea is not well defined
Maybe start by realising that's quite a lot you can't do
faint garden
Hey how can I be best mathematician in the world?
Count to 10,000 everyday
sonic prairie
Count to 10,000 everyday
That's the worst advice I've heard of.
I didn't say computer.
flint basin
Yeah clearly we need to count to 20,000 each day
echo tundra
Ya'll don't count every second of your existence? Cringe
sonic prairie
I don't count, I'm a combinatorist.
I'm a count.
Not that
Which comes to your mind when you first say
tribal slate
i dont count i continue
sonic prairie
You don't continue because you count.
placid siren
Hey Guys
I am new here
So, some time ago I was searching for very difficult unsolved math problems
And I came across 2
- Collatz Conjecture (3x+1)
- Riemann's Hypothesis
Any thoughts?
placid siren
what exactly do you want our thoughts on? 👀
Well, on the problems, and ideas to, you know, solve them.
flint basin
bruh
eager reef
What's your background
languid marten
proof by exhaustion
placid siren
What's your background
wdym??
flint basin
I mean they are famously hard for a reason no? Many mathematicians over the past 100-200 years have tried and failed
eager reef
Your background in mathematics
placid siren
Oh
eager reef
what education stage, what topics have you read lately etc
placid siren
University
wet mortar
what subject
eager reef
Give me an example of something you've read lately
placid siren
Give me an example of something you've read lately
Pure mathematics. Analysis. Number Theory.
Actually
eager reef
you're beating around the bush
eager reef
what's your phd in
placid siren
what's your phd in
Math
flint basin
LMAO
eager reef
outline your thesis
placid siren
In process
eager reef
my brother in christ
wet mortar
what area
eager reef
if you want my thoughts you'll have to be more specific
what problems have you tackled, what's your research area, are your advisors interested
languid marten
What do you mean??
What's your thesis topic ?
flint basin
How old are you? SInce you're getting your PhD?
placid siren
if you want my thoughts you'll have to be more specific
What's your background??
placid siren
so far it seems like you're full of shit
What?
flint basin
yes 30 comes after 29
eager reef
if you want thoughts about you tackling problems that have been unsolved for a long time you'll have to provided some information about your research
solid snow
math phd
just found out about collatz and rh
placid siren
>math phd
>just found out about collatz and rh
I found out long time back
But was into studies and
wet mortar
just found out about adolf hitler
placid siren
forgot
wet mortar
that's a pretty bad dude
placid siren
well I just saw something about it again
bronze pelican
Tbf he said math phd level, not that he did a phd
placid siren
that's a pretty bad dude
,Yea my memory isn't that good
@eager reef well, what's ur background in the field of maths?
flint basin
I think you gotta detail yours first mate
placid siren
I think you gotta detail yours first mate
what details do you want??
eager reef
We told you that
flint basin
What's area is your research in? Since you know, you're in a PhD
eager reef
several times
eager reef
you refused to say something and keep beating around the bush
you can just drop it if you want to avoid digging yourself a deeper hole
placid siren
What's area is your research in? Since you know, you're in a PhD
Analysis and Partial Differential Equations
I told that long ago
languid marten
ANT maybe
placid siren
you said analysis and number theory
Number theory was an extra knowledge thing I was reading lately.
sonic prairie
Lmfao, somethin is going onnnn
placid siren
Lmfao, somethin is going onnnn
yup
eager reef
You still haven't answered my more specific questions
solid snow
i don't even understand the point of this, you're just actively refusing help for no apparent reason
safe harbor
is this a language barrier thing
eager reef
what are papers do you find interesting, what area of PDEs are you researching?
faint garden
eager reef
Like noone can give you any thoughts on this if we don't know this stuff
sonic prairie
Just enter the arxiv.org and throw something from number theory, you are so bad at dii
solid snow
surprisingly, you have to be specific when talking about one of the most studied open problems spanning several fields of math
faint garden
Imagine that the collatz conjecture is solvable using olympiad level math techniques
safe harbor
it's unlikely but I'm not sure if there's a hard reason why it couldn't be
with FLT there was
something to do with finite fields, you could copy out an elementary proof in an algebraic structure in which it isn't true, which showed there needed to be something clever going on
placid siren
currently, I am researching in wiener–hopf method stefan problem
sonic prairie
Imagine that the collatz conjecture is solvable using olympiad level math techni...
Yes, with ANT
eager reef
lol i think this was just a language barrier thing
Yeah might've been
placid siren
@eager reef I did answer ur question
eager reef
Is there any reason you would like to do research specifically on the RH for example
it's not very likely to be fruitful and you might be better off trying for lower hanging apples
safe harbor
wait are they saying they want to research RH xd
eager reef
But i don't think i would need to tell a PhD this so i'm gonna say ask your advisor
placid siren
Is there any reason you would like to do research specifically on the RH for exa...
Well, I was just curious and was very much tired of the wiener hopf and stefan
faint garden
it's not very likely to be fruitful and you might be better off trying for lower...
They should make a giant list of failed approaches that have been tried on the collatz conjecture and RH just to discourage people
safe harbor
already exists for RH
placid siren
so I just switched for sometime
safe harbor
already exists for RH
eager reef
you're not gonna make progress on the RH while "switching for some time"
safe harbor
doesn't describe why they are wrong
which would be interesting to see if anyone can be arsed
placid siren
you're not gonna make progress on the RH while "switching for some time"
I know, but I just wanted to do it
safe harbor
if you look on vixra
eager reef
What does your advisor think
safe harbor
there is a lot there too
also you can do stuff related to RH if you do ANT generally but you're probably not going to make any progress towards proving RH if that's what you were thinking about
there is a lot of ANT research that looks at corollaries of RH and equivalents
faint garden
I know, but I just wanted to do it
Do you have any reason to believe that you would be able to make progress on RH?
placid siren
What does your advisor think
Well, I did take his advice, at first he was against it, but then when I explained to him about my situation he agreed
eager reef
then you should refer to him
that's better advice than random people on discord can give
and i don't think you want ideas how to solve it from a discussion channel on a public discord
placid siren
Yea
sonic prairie
and i don't think you want ideas how to solve it from a discussion channel on a ...
Lol
placid siren
Would do that
faint garden
and i don't think you want ideas how to solve it from a discussion channel on a ...
Yeah you have to go to the secret private discords for that
placid siren
But today's the first day
safe harbor
starts by dividing both sides by zeta and you get z = 0
sonic prairie
Yeah you have to go to the secret private discords for that
Olympiad discords are exist.
safe harbor
look at RH on the side by all means but don't get sidetracted with crank proofs of RH
especially don't try to publish them
might unironically damage your mathematical career
esp early stage
(some established mathematicians claimed false proofs of RH and were fine tho)
de branges? iirc. i think he might've done that after his glory days though
sonic prairie
Grigori Perelman
safe harbor
did he claim RH?
wet mortar
atiyah did
wet mortar
my ancestor
sonic prairie
did he claim RH?
No, he is interested in Topology
wet mortar
not anymore
late leaf
proof by dementia
💀💀💀
sonic prairie
It's fair though, he beat it.
safe harbor
i mean his field was geometric analysis right so he probably knows enough analysis
safe harbor
oh idrk about that
didn't he pick up poincare because hamilton made major headway
and he managed to find a way through
or something
idk history of poincare conjecture
like he completed a program started by hamilton
faint garden
evil of math 👀
sonic prairie
Hamilton actually didn't had direct contributions to Poincare but he did.
safe harbor
i thought he proved special cases
sonic prairie
Yes
final igloo
i hate math
sonic prairie
i hate math
What's the problem with it?
final igloo
i get fucked by math every day
final igloo
i dont like getting fucked
raw shoal
i get fucked by math every day
same here but we need math on this world 
safe harbor
i do
raw shoal
goat song
sonic prairie
Yeah, when it sings in your brain during math exam, you are getting 91,41421356237% math boost.
Why my gifs aren't showing, it's sad
cold remnant
i hate math
Why tf are you here then
sonic prairie
X: I don't use alcohol, cigarette, drug sir, except... I chat in math server.
sonic prairie
Why tf are you here then
For real
I thought we were all together in this... nerd thing.
cold remnant
Yeah
Some ppl are just here for homework help
Others are math ppl
And the rest are… idk just here for shits and giggles
sonic prairie
I'm both shits and math person, basically Howard from Sheldon.
final igloo
i wish
proven plinth
sonic prairie
Here's the cheat sheet you need for your math class:
2 ÷ 2 = 4
This weapon is my best
sonic prairie
<:glassescat:1037770587235434567>
Wtf, how did you got my picture
Dude I want to do some damn Advanced Math, I'll sleep.
trail valley
does anyone have coursehero? I wanna view a document (a course outline for a course I'll be doing next semester)
neat lintel
i hate what we are taught at school in germany
it's all kinda really slo
slow paced
and not so useful
why would i learn ancient greek?
when would i need to write latin, when i am in the smallest country in the world? when time travelling is invented?
the math we are taught is also verrrrry slow-paced
i have friends in iran who started precalc in 8th grade. in 8th grade we were learning about circles
long matrix
learning ancient greek is more useful than assembly i bet
neat lintel
how come
i mean who uses assembly nowadays, you're right
only seen it in bootloaders
proven plinth
I saw that
neat lintel
lol
ok, i was wondering if anyone else felt the same way
ngl shuri is really annoying, he just sullys everything i say in the server and makes fun of my interests all the time
proven plinth
D:
neat lintel
literally talked about assembly once here a long time ago and he's making fun of that, i think.
neat lintel
ikr
neat lintel
i meant "yeah, i get it"
sorry
stuck pulsar
ah ok
stuck pulsar
boughta put /s in my language
nimble oracle
learning ancient greek is more useful than assembly i bet
No
neat lintel
assembly plays in kernel programming
neat lintel
learning ancient greek is more useful than assembly i bet
even in Greece people talk in modern greek , i dont see any point of learning ancient greek if you want to learn deeply languages
neat lintel
believe me i studied ancient greek
long matrix
believe me, i studied neither and care about neither
neat lintel
then you should not be saying something false
long matrix
blissful vale
I think its still important to learn some assembly, it play's an important role in understanding how our metal boxes work
neat lintel
I think its still important to learn some assembly, it play's an important role ...
i think some computer science students take assembly courses to understand the machine level stuff
blissful vale
I had to, the class was required to graduate with a CS degree
most people wont ever see it again
but its good to reduce the abstraction and see how it all really works under the hood
neat lintel
i had a PIC 3 kit programmer
long matrix
the abstraction is there to keep us sane
blissful vale
I really enjoyed my time coding ARM machine's in that assembly class
neat lintel
same it’s easy to understand but the things is the code gets bigger and complicated to handle
blissful vale
Yeah it get's to be a pain when you start doing not so trivial things
neat lintel
agreed
long matrix
My problem about assembly is your implementation will likely be suboptimal for anything complex
which sucks the motivation out of me bothering
so i leave assembly to the assembly people
blissful vale
that's fair, it has its use case in low level programming.
neat lintel
its not like u have to master it knowing it is just helpful
blissful vale
I wouldnt go out of my way to write something in assembly when I can write a 10 line script in python to do it
long matrix
Assemblies near the bottom of my list for languages to learn that would improve things
I think.
neat lintel
like if you really liked it and want to build a career in embedded system or kernel programming then thats something you got to handle
blissful vale
funny thing is I think linux is less than 5% assembly
rest is all C
but yeah if youre using to write OS, drivers, embedded machines youre going to have to learn it
and learn it properly
thats why those people make bank
neat lintel
like 50,000 lines of assembly
jagged forge
I don’t think embedded developers or even kernel developers make bank compared to other areas of software eng sadly
You definitely do need to know how your cpu works if you have any hopes of writing efficient software
Like I roll my eyes every time someone mentions in an interview that inserting in a linked list is faster than inserting into an array. Unfortunately modern computers aren’t that simple and linked lists are terrible choices almost all of the time due to memory locality
You should get familiar with performance profiling tools, and you should read up on how cpus work. But it’s very rare that actually knowing enough assembly to program decently in it is that useful
loud snow
You definitely do need to know how your cpu works if you have any hopes of writi...
Not true
At most ull be writing wrappers for mem mangement functions in C
Most of the optimization stuff isnt super low level afaik
Like look at this syllabus
blissful vale
Not true
You think some one without that underlying knowledge could produce better code than some one who does?
loud snow
I do believe you should know assembly
Suremarks last statement is true
And i feel like its nit picky but yeah if you know your cpu you can write the most efficient code
I didnt mean to say not true
Just that when students learn about program optimization they don’t necessarily go that deep
And usually its just compiler memory mangement
blissful vale
I think the idea is that if you understand what is going on at the asm level, you'll be able to make better decision in a higher level language
loud snow
I agree
I agree with suremark but cpu is too deep for most people
And importantance of data structures and memory mangement is enough to optimize most peoples code
blissful vale
I think he might have meant "cpu works" == "low level assembly stuff"
not literally what the transistors are doing lol
loud snow
Ye probably because optimization and low level go hand in hand
loud snow
not literally what the transistors are doing lol
No but knowing hardware architecture is what professionals do
Run of the mill software devs dont need that depth
blissful vale
I agree, but how far down the rabbit hole do you think they really go lol
blissful vale
Run of the mill software devs dont need that depth
yeah, I agree with this.
loud snow
They go very deep
In industry tenure isn’t necessarily a sign of knowledge and it becomes really apparent working for tech companies
blissful vale
In industry tenure isn’t necessarily a sign of knowledge and it becomes really a...
All my coding "positions" have been in the academia realm so I have no idea what the tech industry is like but this doesn't surprise me.
jagged forge
At most ull be writing wrappers for mem mangement functions in C
So you’re more or less saying all you need to do is write wrappers for C libraries that are already fast?
I mean, if there’s already a fast C library that does what you need, then maybe, but you can certainly use a library in a way that ends up being slow
final igloo
i kinda wanna give up on acadmia
jagged forge
why is that?
final igloo
honestly right now i dont think i have the skills to succeed in it
i need to finish the math core for my degree
i also just havent enjoyed working in labs
jagged forge
what’s your major again
final igloo
im starting my second year of computer science later this month
final igloo
no, i only worked at a lab this summer because i could get credits for it and i thought the field was interesting
blissful vale
im starting my second year of computer science later this month
Well, do you like CS?
final igloo
I used to be more into the idea of it
yeah i like cs
but i believe people can work on research even outside of a university so its not like me not going into it means i cant have my own research
i just cant see myself in school forever ngl
blissful vale
Did you go into CS wanting to work in industry? or stay in academia?
blissful vale
and the math is not appealing to you?
final igloo
no the math is fine
the only math class i really didnt like was calc 2
I also dont really like discrete math but its like highly important
blissful vale
Yes, it play a large role in TCS.
final igloo
i dont really dislike math i just kinda say that as a joke here
i dont think im a huge fan of the academia environment
jagged forge
If you just like programming and that’s all you want, there are plenty of industry jobs
final igloo
its very stressful, there doesnt really seem to be any type of guidelines, also code is kinda poorly written
blissful vale
I mean the further you go into CS epically TCS it will all start convergeing into just math, thats why I really enjoyed it.
final igloo
it just seems like the code was written purely for results and it just makes learning the codebase hell
final igloo
I mean the further you go into CS epically TCS it will all start convergeing int...
whats tcs
blissful vale
theoretical CS
final igloo
ohhhh
yeah, no thats fine i think its okay i mean i kinda new cs is just some glorified math degree
jagged forge
well, “results-driven” is a style you may have to get used to if you pivot to industry lol
blissful vale
it is also academia code lol
jagged forge
everything is perpetually shitty, it’s just a matter of degree
blissful vale
It seems like going to industry is most likely the best play for you, and who knows? you are still relatively early in your degree
things can change
final igloo
its true but if you want to go to grad school dont you have to optimize early
i might be misinformed but
blissful vale
wdym optimize early?
final igloo
i know if you want to go to a top us college, it l iterally starts from the 9th grade
final igloo
for instance, in highschool i wanted to go to the best college, so from the start i earned good grades, made fullfilling projects, etc
so i was under the impression grad school was similar
final igloo
although my gpa lol is not competitive idt
blissful vale
most important imo is finding a supervisor that is not only willing to work with you but more importantly you are willing to work with them.
grades and all of that do play a role
and sure if ur gpa isnt competitive you may not be at a top 10 school
final igloo
I also have had really bad experiences with supervisors too
uh i want to ideally do grad school at the same school im doing undergrad
blissful vale
im also not american so take what I say with a grain of salt
but im sure alot of this is transferable
final igloo
where r u from?
blissful vale
Ohh thats really cool
final igloo
i wish i got into waterloo
blissful vale
hahaha