graduate-applications

[cosmic magnet]

I'm throwing all my apps towards a dartboard and hoping one of them stick☠️

[hardy aurora]

literally me rn

[smoky jetty]

They aren't all RNG you should be putting your best foot forward

Apply to a mix of schools

[eternal hill]

I fucked up guys

Forgot to take the math subject gre cause I thought universities don't require it anymore

Is there any hope left? I can only really apply to 6 or 7 top programs now

[shell kindle]

Just apply to schools that don't require it

Unsure what you mean by top program, but you can't only apply to top 10 ranked institutions

[eternal hill]

Well, kind of in a weird position

I got accepted into a program I'd be fine with already - though I have to accept or decline by dec 15th

So I though of only applying to programs I'd be happier in, which are only like really top 10-ish

[shell kindle]

They aren't going to accept/reject you by dec 15 though

[eternal hill]

Yeah, I'm trying to deal with that rn

Got a meeting with my professor on monday

I'll see if she can help

Cause if I have to decline and then don't get in anywhere, then I'm screwed

[tacit lark]

cope

[pearl isle]

I’m applying to 16 schools and only 4 require it

On my list

If you want more to apply to I’m happy to share my list

[eternal hill]

That would be really helpful, yes please!

[tacit lark]

there is a spreadsheet available

[pearl isle]

I’ll post in a bit

[shell kindle]

I don't know what sort of help you could get, given that most schools have their deadlines in december

[tacit lark]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hmdO7af3-lLvtJQO-szayG6blTvAYBQ1JcYXFZ_6apE/edit?gid=0#gid=0

[eternal hill]

Was hoping she might be able to have the deadline for me to accept or decline pushed into march so that I would get the results from my applications too

[shell kindle]

Ah

That is worth trying

[eternal hill]

I mean, otherwise I really have no good option left

[pearl isle]

Berkeley, Princeton, uchicago, MIT, Columbia, UIUC, UW Madison, Johns Hopkins, UC Davis

All schools I’m applying to with no gre requirement

Some are GRE optional but none on that list are required

[pearl isle]

Tbh this feels almost predatory lol

Like they would have to push back their timeline by at least 3 months for you to even have a chance of hearing from other places

Which seems pretty unfair

[eternal hill]

I'm applying to most of these too

Nice!

[eternal hill]

Yeah, the thing is that it is winter start

[pearl isle]

Ah

They will only accept you for winter start, not fall?

[eternal hill]

They will also accept me for fall

but my bachelor's ends in winter

[pearl isle]

Well if they’ll accept you fall I don’t get why they can’t push it back to March

[eternal hill]

So in that case, idk what to do for the spring semester

[pearl isle]

Tbh, then you just get to chill a bit

[shell kindle]

Un burn out yourself

[eternal hill]

Hm, I don't feel comfortable with that

lol

I was gonna see if I could find research in that case

[pearl isle]

I mean most of the schools I listed above are all fall semester starts

But anyway like if I was you I would be glad for a little free time bc phds are intense but that’s just me

[eternal hill]

Yeah, if I got in, I was planning on taking courses which I pay for by myself outside of a program and maybe doing a research or directed reading project

[eternal hill]

Makes sense

[pearl isle]

If you want to take courses your uni will probably let you sit in on them for free

Another thing you could do is just email professors and ask to sit in on their class

And then it’s a mix you’re not doing nothing but it’s not as intense as like a full extra sem of studying

[eternal hill]

I doubt it. I'm from a european uni and they didn't let me do it for free in the past

[pearl isle]

Maybe the bureaucracy won’t officially, but have you tried emailing individual professors?

[eternal hill]

Yeah, I'm just afraid it would look bad on a cv (you know, the whole having nothing to show for a period thing)

[pearl isle]

Nah. Especially if you’re a winter semester grad pretty much everyone does this

[eternal hill]

Oh, they're fine with students sitting in and all. But I wouldn't get a grade

[eternal hill]

Oh, for real?

[pearl isle]

Yes

[eternal hill]

That's really surprising

[pearl isle]

Most programs accept fall semester only

So most students have a free semester

Also, grad programs are accepting you based on the CVs you submit now

What you do after this fall has pretty much no impact

They don’t even see that CV

[eternal hill]

I guess you're right

I was a bit afraid for future ph.d. or postdoc stuff

But I'm probably overestimating how much they'd care about smth like that at that point

[pearl isle]

I guarantee you no one will care if you took a semester off

Especially if you’re graduating in the fall semester

[eternal hill]

I see. Ok, thank you

[pearl isle]

Np

[eternal hill]

Wait, I'm pretty sure stanford requires subject gre's right?

[pearl isle]

Yes

They technically have a waiver you can fill out

[eternal hill]

Ok, just got my hopes up lol

[pearl isle]

But the waiver requires you to explain why you didn’t take it

[eternal hill]

Hmm, would it be stupid to say I was sick...?

[pearl isle]

Worth a shot

[eternal hill]

I guess so

[pearl isle]

I don’t know how generous they are with the waiver

Maybe email about it before you give them your money via a fee

[eternal hill]

Yeah, can't say I'm hopeful with stanford even if I had the gres

[eternal hill]

Hm, good point. I'll do that

[pearl isle]

At these top programs even the best students are far from guaranteed

So yeah

Stanford is tough

Always worth a shot (unless you can’t afford the fees)

[eternal hill]

Is it worth a shot even if I don't have the "best students" credentials?

All I have going for me are my grades

I suppose there's no way of knowing prolly

[pearl isle]

If you can afford the fees it can’t hurt to apply

[hot wadi]

I HOPE EVERYONE GETS TO THEIR DREAM PLACES

[eternal hill]

Me too

Though optimism has never really paid off for me

BUT THERE MUST BE A FIRST!

[hot wadi]

BEING NEGATIVE = BAD MOOD

BEING POSITIVE = GOOD MOOD

----> BE POSITIVE

😄

GOOD >BAD

[mossy niche]

yeah realistically they get so many applications that they won't bother with that excuse

the waiver is meant usually for people who literally cannot sit the exam

[pearl isle]

In fairness I do believe in my core that Stanford are fundamentally bad people for requiring the math gre

[shell kindle]

This is true.....

[mossy niche]

ets is evil, but their predatory practices are very successful

story: my friend accidentally cancelled his scores at the end of the exam

[shell kindle]

Stanford is the embodiment of lawful evil

[mossy niche]

money solves all problems however and he got them reinstated for 50 bucks

(good thing he was able to because he got a 96 percentile and his dream school is Stanford)

[young yoke]

i am doing an engineering internship (vaguely math adjacent), and i have two letter writers. if background matters, one is an ex-mechanical engineering prof and the other is a physicist. I will have a letter from my primary math advisor (who i've been doing research with for 2 years) that will be good.

my question is this: **for math phd programs, is it fine (or rather, is it ideal) if two of my 3 letters come from the internship? **I am certain that the LORs they write will be absolutely stunning and likely much better than letters I could obtain from other profs in my department. I have one prof I could ask, but I only took classes with him (got an A- in one...). What do you guys think I should do? any advice?

[shell kindle]

Are the schools you are applying to limited to 3 letters

If they can accept 4, I would ask the prof as well

[cosmic magnet]

True! But I'm going to maximise what I can do

[pearl isle]

Tbh I don’t think it’s cope. There are parts of it you can control but there’s simply too many applicants for programs to pick the best choices every time

There’s a LOT of randomness in picking who they admit out of say the top 75 applicants

[tacit lark]

it isnt completely random

not even close to completely random

there is plenty of noise in the application process though

[pearl isle]

100% of students accepted to good programs will tell you the admissions process is good kek

[knotty marsh]

Is it okay if parts of the SOP show "emotions". I have realised that to be sincere I really need to communicate how I feel about certain things, and I am worried that it will look "unprofessional" theres nothing inappropriate/unhinged and Im sure everyone would read it as sincere because it talks about some struggles, Im just worried if admissions committees will look at it harshly for some reason

[cosmic magnet]

There are other sections where you can address struggles and concerns. Some schools have an additional info section or something related

obv school dependant so can't say for sure

[pearl isle]

This should go in the personal statement if the school has one, not the statement of purpose

It depends slightly what the emotions are but the statement of purpose should be a professional description of your background + discussion of your goals and research plans

Descriptions of struggles are explicitly what the personal statement is about at most places

[mossy niche]

if your struggles are math related then I don't see why not

[undone yacht]

Not saying you should not say much (or anything) but I can say what has worked for me. I had major medical problems (10 years to finish MSc and 12 to finish PhD) and I never say more than one line in my CV ("delayed education due to illness.") I never had any problems or issues.

[pearl isle]

It’s just not what the statement of purpose is for

[mossy niche]

not dwelling on the struggles for longer than a few lines at most is what you should be aiming for

there's no consensus on what the sop is for

[pearl isle]

If there is no personal statement I can see putting it in

If there is a personal statement

Then definitely don’t put it in the SOP

Put it where they want you to put it

The personal statement

Pretty much every school with a personal statement section I’m applying to has made it quite clear in the instructions that that’s the place to talk abt struggles and personal challenges

[cosmic magnet]

How do I talk about poor grades in the personal statement? lowkey don't have explanations for two sems worth of grades

[pearl isle]

How you frame it is important, when were the semesters

If they were early in your college career a good spin is like

[cosmic magnet]

sophomore year and junior spring

[pearl isle]

You were having difficulty adapting to college and once you figured it out you were consistent afterwards

[pearl isle]

Were these the sems you took your first upper div math classes

Cause that’s another way to spin it

You really want to find some way to describe yourself as having a growth trajectory

[cosmic magnet]

My soph fall was heavy ngl. Adjustment to apts + tough courseload

[pearl isle]

If you’re talking abt past bad grades

[pearl isle]

It’s fine to mention that too then

[cosmic magnet]

Yeah, I need to write a thorough personal statement to explain those struggles

[pearl isle]

Like “you weren’t used to living on your own outside of a dorm”

Or something

[cosmic magnet]

Yeah, I can def do that for my soph year explanation

[pearl isle]

Would you happen to be a first gen student

That’s another way to explain it if so

[cosmic magnet]

No☠️

[pearl isle]

What abt like

Have you had to work a lot of hours for a job those semesters

[tacit lark]

Thats not true lol but ok

Saying its completely random doesnt help anyone.

[tacit lark]

Its difficult to say without seeing the statement. Try to get some people to look over it and give you feedback.

[mossy niche]

ask your advisor. they will tell you if it's good in the big picture

[tacit lark]

In general you should ask for feedback on your sop from prof writing a lor for you

[mossy niche]

when you ask all your letter writers if there's any feedback in the sop they have and none of them have anything to say about it, it's time to stop worrying about it and do some actual mathematica

[eternal hill]

Does anyone have a collection of personal statement examples I could take a look at?

[main marlin]

question about GREs

math gre specifically

wouldn't a student who does a master in math be a lot better prepared? so would a european student who has a full bachelor + master and then applies for phd positions in us that ask for gre be in a much better spot than someone with just a bachelor?

Also about positions that require foreign languages, how much of said foreign langauage must you know? For princeton's foreign lang requirement, are most people applying fluent in french/german/russian (at least one)?

[mossy niche]

yes

[main marlin]

do foreign math phd candidates do really well then? it seems like a massive disadvantage

[mossy niche]

foreign candidates cost more for a department to hire than domestic, so this disadvantage is partly softened by that

[pearl isle]

Better prepared for what

[main marlin]

read above

[pearl isle]

For the PhD yes, for the GRE no

(The gre asks mostly for content that you learn in the first year and a half of math undergrad)

Ironically the more math you take the worse prepared you are

Because you forget a lot of that stuff

Bc it’s been so long since you had to do it

[main marlin]

Yes but when you learn more math dont you improve your problem solving abilites as well

[mossy niche]

i really hope this isnt the case

[pearl isle]

The GRE is a shitty test. It doesn’t test your ability to solve problems

[mossy niche]

because you shouldnt be losing your ability to problem solve as you go deeper into math

[pearl isle]

It tests your ability to do calc integrals and basic probability questions and also how fast you do them

[mossy niche]

the modern gre is actually pretty good at testing problem solving

[buoyant star]

The GRE is literally mc questions for context, not really like written analytical thinking its more actual numerical answers

[pearl isle]

Also high school Euclidean geometry

It’s really stupid

[mossy niche]

but it doesnt test well someone's ability to succeed in a phd, i agree

[main marlin]

what about the language stuff?

Like I saw princeton demanded russian/german/french

Are US students just learning another language to fluency?

[pearl isle]

Oftentimes the programs that require that allow you to learn it during the PhD

Idk abt Princeton specifically

[slim wigeon]

I asked my prof (from Cornell) and she said the bar is not that high

[pearl isle]

Wait do you go to Cornell?

[main marlin]

i've heard some people don't fully learn french just like 200 words and are able to understand a lot of the texts

[slim wigeon]

it’s ok learning to read math in another language is really not hard (as opposed to learning an entire language)
esp since you get a dictionary on the examinations

[pearl isle]

Do you know if bc you guys didn’t take any grad students last year you’re taking more than usual this year?

[cosmic magnet]

Cornell is my dream school ngl🗿

[slim wigeon]

no LOL

[pearl isle]

Rip

[cosmic magnet]

Best applied math + CS program🔥

[main marlin]

I speak French fluently and could learn german fluently if i tried, can this actually dramatically improve my chances or will it just not make a difference and im coping

[pearl isle]

I’m coping that they’re gonna admit more ppl bc they have many good topologists & I wanna go there

[cosmic magnet]

wait wtf🗿☠️

[slim wigeon]

might depend on the field idk

[pearl isle]

Tbh I don’t think it will make a difference to admissions

[slim wigeon]

I imagine you don’t have to learn to fluency tho as long as your English is good

[mossy niche]

im applying to cornell because maybe theyll take more students

[pearl isle]

I’m applying cause their program looks rlly good for what im interested in (topology/geometry) but im coping that i have a shot bc maybe they’ll take more

[cosmic magnet]

Is this true? if so imma send an application there

[mossy niche]

no

they just didnt take anyone last year

[pearl isle]

Yeah it’s probably just a rumor

Well it’s not even a rumor

It’s something I made up in my head

[cosmic magnet]

they took that application fee and scammed everyone

[pearl isle]

The fact they didn’t take people is a fact but there’s no reason to believe that means they’ll take more ppl and in fact the opposite is probably true

[pearl isle]

I think they refunded

Idk tho

[mossy niche]

they refunded if you asked

[pearl isle]

Insane lol

[slim wigeon]

actually?

[main marlin]

is anyone familiar with programs/scholarships that help lgbt/ethnic minorities/trans women get help

[mossy niche]

if you're applying this year then its too late, but there are many out there. i just didnt know of them until i actually started applying

[main marlin]

i'm not applying this year

if you know of a list

i would really appreciate it

need more lgbt in math tbh

[mossy niche]

basically look at the list of the programs where you imediately get a fee waiver for a phd application

[main marlin]

where do i find that list

[cosmic magnet]

You can generally find waiver eligibility stuff on the program's FAQ page

[cunning nimbus]

(this is apparently a bit bogus, like they have this requirement but in practice they don’t really enforce it; I know a student who told me he went to nick katz’s office for his french exam and he had to translate a paper by deligne. the paper started with “soit p un nombre premier” so he said “let p be a prime number” and then katz immediately concluded with “ok you know how to read french” and it ended there)

(asking for a friend) what are statements of purpose supposed to look like? do you just describe your background and your study and research plans and maybe mention faculty with related interests?

[pearl isle]

Yes it’s basically this from what I understand

[smoky jetty]

Ok so I'm at a university with this requirement (OSU)

Basically all the exam is is that you pick a source text (say Bourbaki in French)

The person giving the exam picks like 2-3 pages for you to translate

And you have to translate it to English in 2 hours, and you're allowed a dictionary

You can translate a French, Russian, or German text

But this is a very rare requirement as far as I can tell

(and I'm planning on petitioning the graduate school to remove this requirement at OSU since it's unfair to international students whose first language isn't English but that's another debate)

[cunning nimbus]

thanks, it seems quite similar to a letter of motivation

[pearl isle]

From what I understand that’s the UK name for the exact same thing

So if you already have one of those feel free to just use it

[cunning nimbus]

thank you!

[mossy niche]

is it just me or is upenn just not responding to requests about fee waivers

[pearl isle]

Got a 328 first try on general GRE lol

[pearl isle]

That test is kinda free

I took it bc exactly one school asked for it

No studying at all

[hexed ibex]

Personally I’m totally fine with language reqs

Plus the amount of French that you actually have to learn to be able to read math is minimal

[cosmic magnet]

Yeah I emailed

[mossy niche]

i answered my own question, upenn has completely revamped their application system in the past few months

[cosmic magnet]

Haven't received anything yet

[mossy niche]

there is now a form you can fill out

[cosmic magnet]

UCSB?

[cosmic magnet]

Oh shoot, is it on the application or is it separate?

[mossy niche]

separate

[cosmic magnet]

Do you mind if I DM about it?

[mossy niche]

you can find it on the math website

[cosmic magnet]

This is the only thing that I got☠️

[pearl isle]

Yep

[mossy niche]

https://www.math.upenn.edu/graduate/admissions/application-admission-faqs/how-apply

[cosmic magnet]

UC Davis still hasn't responded to my fee waiver form

I don't know how they expect students to pay 125 dollars to get their applications reviewed. That's some insane scheming

[mossy niche]

you may not believe it, but most math PhD applicants are quite well off

[pearl isle]

How does that justify not reviewing fee waivers

Most people applying don’t need them sure. But they’re just making that situation worse by not reviewing them for the ones who do

[shell kindle]

Most universities are also quite well off

[mossy niche]

i never said I liked it but many people can afford to drop a load of money for applications

sometimes it pays for visitations

[mossy niche]

i think you're responding to the wrong question

[pearl isle]

I think that your comment was largely irrelevant to the thing itez said

[mossy niche]

no, it is quite relevant to the comment that sb expects 125 for an application

nothing to do with a fee waiver

[pearl isle]

hm

[mossy niche]

*ucdavis

[pearl isle]

ok fair

that said

I think it's a scam still

[mossy niche]

obviously it's a scam

[pearl isle]

no one is still flying people out to do tours

or at least maybe some schools have reinstated it after covid?

but it's definitely rarer

[mossy niche]

it's way more common in more lucrative fields that get more funding

upenn still has open house I believe

[cosmic magnet]

Most schools that I'm applying to expect a max of 80-90 dollars

125 is definitely more expensive than general

[mossy niche]

it sounds normal for california

stanford is 125, ucla and ucberkeley are 135

just as a reference point

[main marlin]

thats like every university

its literally a fucking scam

[spring portal]

Its 155 for us internationals at UCs

[limpid zealot]

don't forget the $25 per TOEFL report, that's the cherry on top

[spring portal]

My medium of instruction is English so atleast I dont have to pay for that

[limpid zealot]

interesting

[hexed escarp]

Does anyone know the deadlines for applying for a masters at bonn?

[paper granite]

It’s on their website, first rounds deadline is like 15th of January iirc

The first round doesn’t even open until December first though so don’t worry, there’s also a second round sometime in spring

And if you’re German/studying at a German uni there’s a third even later round

[hexed escarp]

I wasn't able to find it...

where did you find it?

[paper granite]

https://www.mathematics.uni-bonn.de/studium/en/prospective-students/entry-into-the-master-study-program-mathematics

It’s just a link on the maths masters page

[hexed escarp]

thanks

[open hamlet]

huh they moved the channel to the top

[shell kindle]

<@&268886789983436800> channels out of order

[timber tundra]

how did this happen

i dont remember the exact order

yell at me if this is wrong

[slim wigeon]

#graduate-applications goes below #math-pedagogy

[pine estuary]

So i took the gen gre and got a 165 quant, which sounded great to me, but the website says thats 70th percentile

am i cooked

[spring portal]

no

even for 170 you get something like 92nd percentile iirc

what's your verbal score?

[mossy niche]

those last points are fought for with blood and tears

by everyone taking the gre

[pearl isle]

It hk doesn’t matter at all

I’m applying to 1 school that takes it

I got 165/163 with 0 studying

I think tbh that 99% of places will not care they just make you take it to add a barrier so less ppl apply

[prime robin]

it appears several school need class rank in the academic section, how to fill this if my university only has GPA?

[shell kindle]

Put NA or something along those lines

[prime robin]

hmm it says inproper format

[pine estuary]

162

[spring portal]

Ask your department?

[visual lagoon]

Man I hate the applications that make me list every course I've taken, despite the fact that they already know my transcript

[delicate scroll]

Given the choice between doing ug research with a professor at my current school for a longer period of time, and doing a summer reu at a school I plan on applying to, which would be more helpful?

[glossy river]

In Japan they make you fill in elementary school info too for PhD admissions.

[cosmic magnet]

An REU could be better since you're branching out and working with other professors

[delicate scroll]

Ahh ok, follow up question. Is it worthwhile for me to do the reu and then do research with that professor my senior year?

This does make my life much easier though

i think

[cosmic magnet]

Yes, senior year research is still pretty important

[mossy niche]

if you manage to get into the reu, you should do it and the remainig part of summer you can do research at home uni

[delicate scroll]

roughly how competitive are reus?

[cosmic magnet]

quite competitive

[tacit lark]

they tend to be very competitive

[shell kindle]

REUs are more competitive than phds

[visual lagoon]

Wtf MIT asks for the textbook used for each class too

[limpid zealot]

that is dread

how would you deal with something with no or several textbooks? just jot one?

[slim wigeon]

yea I can’t really put anything good down either

just put it in your personal statement

[smoky jetty]

Yea it's awful

[mossy niche]

it helps to have a mathematical supplement already written out

[visual lagoon]

I assume just write "None" or "... and ..."

[mossy niche]

^

[paper granite]

I have taken 2 courses in my entire time at uni that directly used a textbook, I’m sure that would look good on the application

This would be the only reason why I wouldn’t get into MIT of course

[mossy niche]

this is true for many good courses

usually they'll list a textbook as a reference

the main idea is to distinguish for example a course in rudin vs abbott

[hot wadi]

whats the diff

[pearl isle]

Based rudin gigachads vs weaklings who like reading books that are actually well written and have good exposition

These elite schools need to make sure your standards for what constitutes good teaching are low and your willingness to put yourself through unnecessary suffering bc of bad expositors is high

(Only partly /s)

[mossy niche]

i feel like rudin is the gold standard for what one should expect going into math

[pearl isle]

abbot is so good tho

[mossy niche]

confusing writing that makes perfect sense after the fact

[pearl isle]

I actually don't hate rudin

but

abbott is well written

af

[mossy niche]

tbf rudin has a beautiful chapter 2 and the rest is just forgettable

[hot wadi]

ig ur half joking

but even if

rudin and abbot literally cover the same material

give or take measures which are rarely covered anyways in a class

[hot wadi]

i mean why

why do u throw every good writer's effort out of the window suddenly ;D

rudin is a bad book

unlike hatcher however, there are many alternatives

so thats why it doesn't really make sense to use it honestly

[mossy niche]

there are many alternatives to Hatcher as well

[mossy niche]

rudins coverage on measures is atrocious, I hope no one uses it for measure theory

[hot wadi]

yeah but the alternatives feel that they do diff material

say may vs hatcher

atlesat for me

[hot wadi]

yeah i just think like

like idk why most math ppl like to think that friendlier != better and/or like more slick = better

what makes rudin popular is that people who actually know analysis when they read it they really really like it

any student learning it for the first time just hates it and gets confused

why do we listen to the opinions of the former when they are not the target audience anyways

XD

[mossy niche]

that's not why people say rudin is better

[mossy niche]

this is just false, rudin sold me on doing analysis

and I really struggled through that book

[hot wadi]

ur one of the rare ones and u know it

[mossy niche]

it's not like we are self studying from rudin

[hot wadi]

oh

[mossy niche]

this is alongside lectures

[hot wadi]

well ig to me thats what was the context for me

just self studying ie just picking it up and reading

[hot wadi]

i can't have an opinion of that cuz i have never had that so idk 😄

[mossy niche]

yeah if you try self studying rudin I can see why it's a terrible book

[hot wadi]

im glad we agree man cuz i honestly was so confused on how u didnt see it that way but ig u had a whole professor and uni with you so that makes sense

i was just talking about picking up the textbook and reading it and doing the exercises on ur own

especially when you have such friendlier textbooks that everyone loves like abbot and/or tao analysis I

[mossy niche]

it's hard without some form of guidance or correction I agree

[hot wadi]

and literaly cover the same material

[hot wadi]

it's not just hard

almost every textbook is hard imo

it's just that you put effort into trying to understand a detail in a proof that he skipped for no reason whatsoever

usually authors skips proofs but like its not the same with this textbook

[mossy niche]

i feel like this is how I feel whenever I try to read a paper

[hot wadi]

skip details*

[hot wadi]

yeah it makes sense cuz papers aren't meant for like

lkie a paper has a diff goal than an introductory textbok

dont u think

[mossy niche]

but the goal is to learn how to read with mathematical maturity

rudin forces you to learn how to read math with full discern

[hot wadi]

i think if one verifies all examples/does all exercises/goes with just the "dont just read it, fight it" attituide with any book he or she can gain mathematical maturity

the difference is with other textbooks the road is much more clean

there is no need to force me in getting lost with slick proofs honestly

[mossy niche]

the good thing about rudin is, the slick proofs are usually the non important ones

[hot wadi]

i mean yeah but like

again your like

not putting the audience in mind 😄

like ur reading papers so ur prob a grad student

u know whats importnat and whats not

[mossy niche]

well the thing is, usually schools have a normal class and an honors class

you go into honors fully expecting to get tortured

making it out alive is the real goal

[hot wadi]

i haven't taken classes so idk about that but ig ur right

but yeah ig it has to do with what luka said it's like

its so easy to act rudin is the superior book and like have this weird elitism kind of thing going

and thats just the best way to put off someone from math

imo

[mossy niche]

different tastes, that's all

i happen to absolutely hate dummit and foote

[hot wadi]

wow man

[mossy niche]

artin is much better

my algebra class is using aluffi rn and I thank it for teaching me how to appreciate category theory but it's almost as bad as dummit and foote

[hot wadi]

i think reading through dummit and foote (verifying the tons of exmaples/doing atleast like 80% of the many exercises) is a much more clean and straightforward road to "mathematical maturity" than reading through rudin imo.

[hot wadi]

how so

[mossy niche]

i don't have the patience for algebra personally

[hot wadi]

dummit and foote is much more like

talkkative

than allufi

[mossy niche]

just don't like it

while we're on the topic of talkative, I cannot read Lee manifolds

[hot wadi]

wow man

[mossy niche]

king of density and talkativeness

[hot wadi]

yeah

ig diff tastes

but again i really think that with rudin especially we for some reason take the opinnions of the people who actually know analysis

but if we take a group of rnadom students taking analysis for the first time

most of them wouldn't have learnt the material as well as if they had followd a more easy-slow textbook like tao

thats just imo

like what ur saying here is a matter of taste but at the end you will get out of both dummit and lee like

with a good understanding of the material

u just are going to get bored mid-way

with rudin you just quit

by "you" imeant the avg stud

i cant believe people actually say rudin is a good book i just remembered seeing this wall of definitions in the topology chapter ( for the first time ever wihtout ever seeing or hearinga bout these terms..)

yeah

[mossy niche]

the topology chapter is the only chapter I actually liked

[hot wadi]

maybe ur a prodigy bro idk

[mossy niche]

I couldn't understand sequences and series

[hot wadi]

yeah

it was the opposite for me

i thought the topology chapter was just insane

[mossy niche]

i wouldn't say spending 20 hours per week on rudin and liking it makes me a genius

maybe a masochist is a better word

[hot wadi]

yeah i think u could have like read something much more easier and still have learnt the material or even better

but it looks like u had fun

which what matters

[limpid zealot]

some apparently ask for instructor as well as a description of what you studied

oh boy

[limpid zealot]

okay, quick question - do probability courses count when asked for math courses?

and for math applications that also request any and all STEM courses, does stuff like economics count or no?

[shell kindle]

Include probability in math

Include economics if it was mathematical in nature

[limpid zealot]

I see

[limpid zealot]

do stats courses like regression analysis also fit the bill or no?

[shell kindle]

Sure why not

[limpid zealot]

ah, dope

thanks a bunch

[eternal hill]

Hey, I have a follow-up question from a conversation I had with y'all on here

I was offered conditional admission to my university's grad program as long as I accept by Dec. 15th

I talked with my thesis advisor today about this predicament (since I want to apply to grad schools in the US too) and she said that it wouldn't be a bad thing to simply accept the admission at my university and then apply to US universities with the "are you a master's student" or whatever box ticked off

I was under the impression that my chances would be better if I applied as an undergrad since my undergrad ends in January next year, but is she right? Would my chances of getting in be the same whether I apply as a master's student or as a finishing bachelor's student?

[pearl isle]

Wait, if you accept the masters there’s no way you’ll finish in time for fall 2025 start dates

So is she saying you should accept and drop out later?

I mean I guess she knows better than I do probably but I would be scared to do that

[eternal hill]

Yes

I'm fine with dropping out if I get into a program I like

No worries there

I'm just worried that accepting the master's would affect my application, but I don't know whether it would as I'm not really familiar with the US system...

[shell kindle]

You aren't in the US at the moment right

I don't think a masters would adversely affect your application

[pearl isle]

I have no idea, but someone asked a similar question earlier on this channel and they were told that some programs might condition acceptance on finishing the masters

[eternal hill]

No

[eternal hill]

Oh... shit, that would be bad

I'll see if I can find whether there are such conditions on the individual applications

[pearl isle]

I don’t think the applications would say that

[shell kindle]

A lot of phd applications are very case by case

[pearl isle]

But the logic would be that they’re accepting you partly due to the fact that you’re doing a masters so if you’re not actually doing the masters they don’t rlly like it

Tbh, I don’t see why you want to do the masters if you’re trying to apply in the fall anyway

[eternal hill]

Because it would mean I could do the spring semester too for free (since a master's is covered by the state in my country)

And it would also mean that if I don't get in anywhere, I would still be in the middle of my master's at least

Maybe I could explain it somewhere on the application... i.e., that I accepted the masters so I could take courses in spring?

[pearl isle]

That’s probably fine

Me personally, I would take the break because you’re not gonna get one for >=4 years during your PhD

[eternal hill]

Yeah, but I honestly don't feel confident in my application as is, so if an extra semester on there could help, I would gladly do it. Besides, there are some really cool courses and a project I might do as well, so I'm also pretty excited for it

[mossy niche]

maybe you can mention that you're doing masters for the courses, not for the degree

[eternal hill]

Yeah, I've sent out some emails to the universities just to check with them

[barren gorge]

Hey guys, I have kind of a specific question. So I'm a physics student looking forward to do a masters in mathematics in EU and I'm deciding between two professor for a letter of recommendation.

The first one is a theoretical particle physicist and the other one is a mathematician (geometer), but he hasn't been active in academia for some years. Who would be the best option? Would a LOR from a physicist be useless for a mathematics department? Or would the LOR of my mathematics professor be weak because of his lack of activity in academia in the lasts years?

Thanks for your answers guys. (Also I could say that they know me equally well).

[raw quail]

I mean, in the absence of other information, I'd say they're probably on par with one another. The mathematician may be able to speak a little bit more to your mathematical ability

(You could ask both and alternate between them for applications.)

[pearl isle]

Was the mathematician once well known

Or never

[barren gorge]

Actually, never. The physicist is kind of well positioned I'd say

[visual lagoon]

rare word

[pearl isle]

Then I would go with the physicist

[spring portal]

Yea... if you mention being a masters student, then transcripts for that would be asked, dropping out will also not look good on paper imo

[eternal hill]

Yeah, I would have the transcript for my courses. But I would, as you say, have dropping out on my paper, I suppose

Dunno rly... I contacted one very renowned professor as he knows about admissions, and he said that his personal stance is that it's fine for students can take unusual paths as long as they explain it in their application somewhere

But yeah, I feel like it could go either way, tbh

[eternal hill]

Say, what do people think about Vanderbilt for PhD with low-dimensional top focus now they have Margalit?

[tender meteor]

what gpa range do grad schools typically look for in applicants? is it impossible to get into top programs without a near-perfect gpa?

[mossy niche]

for the top programs ive always heard that with a 4.0 math gpa, you have a legitimate chance, 3.9+ math GPA you have a slim fighting chance and below that it quickly dwindles assuming you haven't done some other insane things to boost your application

[shell kindle]

Different schools look at different things

[tender meteor]

damn okay thanks

[limpid zealot]

what defines the math GPA?

[shell kindle]

Some schools will care more about upper div math gpa, others will care about all math courses, some will care about improving grades over time

[tender meteor]

are there other things you can do to boost your chances? REU's, etc?

[mossy niche]

the math courses GPA (may be all or just upper div), for example Ive gotten all As in all my non math classes but schools will likely not give a damn since it's not math

[tender meteor]

oh math gpa not just overall okay

[mossy niche]

on the other hand, non As in non math classes won't hurt nearly as much as a non A in a math class

if at all

[limpid zealot]

okay, so dumb question

is it suspicious if I sent in two transcripts and my grades on the same course differ

(two transcripts because two degrees)

[mossy niche]

uhh

[tender meteor]

do you know if its the same for all math-adjacent programs? for example im looking at cs programs as well

[mossy niche]

as long as it's not a professional degree then I think so

[tender meteor]

alr thanks

[limpid zealot]

the only math course I have a poor grade on is discrete math with a B+ on my math degree

and I guess two statistics courses with A-s if I count those on the math gpa

[mossy niche]

do you mean course as in degree

[limpid zealot]

course as in class

I have a CS degree and a math degree

[mossy niche]

why do you have different grades for the same class

[limpid zealot]

two complete degrees at two separate institutes

[mossy niche]

oh you retook it

[limpid zealot]

double majors are illegal here

so you have to do two degrees

bonkers

[mossy niche]

i don't know, you took the same class twice?

[limpid zealot]

yeah

[mossy niche]

that sounds insane

[limpid zealot]

it's not a retake in that I retook it due to a fail

I took it again because it's a separate degree

and it has it as a requirement

[mossy niche]

maybe just mention in your sop

[limpid zealot]

oh, ok

[pearl isle]

I made a small typo in my recommenders email for about half of my applications

Is it fine to just exclude them and add them again with the correct email

Will it look suspicious or something

[mossy niche]

probably not

i doubt it will matter but idk how evil some department might be to automatically disqualify you based on "an inability to check the details where it matters carefully" idk

[open hamlet]

damn what

why is it illegal

[limpid zealot]

"it's physically impossible to do two majors at one institute" as per our education council

there's a set of exceptions that let you do two things at once

but those exceptions aren't actually possible in more than half the cases

[open hamlet]

bruh

[limpid zealot]

it's also not legal to do grad level classes, hence my earlier question on the matter

[open hamlet]

wtf that's insane

[limpid zealot]

"undergrads doing grad classes indicates lack of rigor in grad classes" and other bonkers reasons

the tertiary education reports are abysmal reads

[open hamlet]

man what weirdass institution u go to

[limpid zealot]

not institution

country

it's a state policy

[open hamlet]

yeesh

[glossy river]

which country

[limpid zealot]

good ol' Pakistan

[limpid zealot]

can't wait to jot 78 courses for every application asking for all STEM subjects

[hot wadi]

no

[lusty sluice]

I have acquired graduate schools I wanna apply to, about half pure math, half applied math

Does anyone have words of wisdom for when attempting to reach out to faculty that interest me at each specific program, if it is something I should try to do? If so and you have done it, how did you approach the matter?

As a time reference, I'd be applying in the fall

[shell kindle]

I think the main thing is being clear about what reaching out to faculty can do for your application

[smoky jetty]

Why half pure half applied? I would say make sure your letter writers know what you're looking to do so they can write their letters appropriately

Hm maybe there's no need

[limpid zealot]

I am once again forced to ask a bizarre question

I was a research assistant at an ML lab for two years, and some of my stuff ended up being used in the masters' students publications (uncredited) - now, unfortunately, I parted ways on poor terms as I was being pressured into doctoring data for paper submissions, which I refused to do

on the research experience sections, some of my applications are asking for contacts for any and all research supervisors I've been under

is this a circumstance I explain in a personal statement?

[shell kindle]

😵‍💫

[limpid zealot]

I am absolutely sorry for confusing this chat lmao

[tacit lark]

Idk what you should do

Do you have proof

[limpid zealot]

No, unfortunately I do not as none of it happened in any written form

And asking my college back won't be of help either, since the folks I'm in a scuffle with now run the place

[shell kindle]

You should not write about any alleged academic misconduct without written evidence to back you up

[limpid zealot]

Unfortunately, getting evidence won't be possible - there are no written documents regarding any such misconduct

And inquiring with my college will be a negative since the professors involved now run the place in its entirety

The "closest" I can get is two witness accounts of one of the involved professors blackmailing a colleague in relation to me, but those are student accounts and not anything officially written down

Hmm

[pearl isle]

Do not mention this advisor if you can help it

What do you think they would say about you if contacted? If you have to mention them

[limpid zealot]

They'd absolutely bamboozle me, they've done that ever since the paper scuffle

[pearl isle]

Wdym bamboozle

Like shit talk you to the committee?

[limpid zealot]

if contacted, they will do anything to ruin my odds

[pearl isle]

I mean basically your only slightly unethical option is just to not mention ever doing research with them

[limpid zealot]

they've already denied sending my friends letters of recommendations for masters programs due to association with me as the reason, so nothing is impossible

[pearl isle]

Or to not apply to places that require you to list all advisors if you don’t want to omit one

[limpid zealot]

hmm

I see

[pearl isle]

Either that or you need one of your letter writers to go to bat for you in their letter on this issue so that if they contact the professor there is at least someone on the same professional level disputing their claims

But that runs the risk of bringing it up when there’s a solid chance the committee just won’t contact them anyway

And if you bring it up they probably will

So idk

[limpid zealot]

fair point

[pearl isle]

You have some options you should talk to an advisor about which one to take

[limpid zealot]

I'll discuss it with them - this is the primary reason none of my letter writers are from my college

[pearl isle]

1. omit them even if the app says to list all of the programs
2. don’t apply to programs asking to list all
3. include them and hope the committee doesn’t contact them (if it’s just like a “list past work experiences” or a resume thing they very likely won’t, but this is obviously risky)
4. have your letter writers speak out preemptively (then they definitely will contact the prof for the other side)

Those are what I see as your options

[pearl isle]

Yeah this makes option 4 a lot less viable then

Bc your letter writers don’t really know the story other than as they’ve heard from you or at least the committee will see it that way

[limpid zealot]

that's fair

I realize now that the closest I can get to an academic's account is the instructor I was serving under for linear algebra when I was a TA

but he hasn't received a PhD yet

[pearl isle]

Yeah that’s also rough

[limpid zealot]

basically he and I caught a cheating ring in the CS department

and as a result I got fired

[pearl isle]

Jeeze

[limpid zealot]

him and the other math instructor on that course can testify it happened

but the CS department will not

[pearl isle]

Your uni sounds insane lol

[limpid zealot]

I'm in Pakistan

it's the wild west here

[pearl isle]

Also is the cheating ring related to the falsifying data thing

Or unrelated

[limpid zealot]

very related

[pearl isle]

Bc if it’s unrelated then it won’t help to include him very much

Hm

[limpid zealot]

basically there were two disciplinary hearings

[pearl isle]

Yeah idk. You’re a little screwed by this I can’t lie

[limpid zealot]

the first was chaired by the professors in the research scandal

the second was blackmailed by the professors involved in the research scandal after the head of their group was pressurized into resigning

[pearl isle]

Disciplinary hearings against you? For what?

[limpid zealot]

for "demonstrating tyrannous intent" over doing what my instructor asked, i.e. announcing that there's a penalty for cheating

[pearl isle]

Rough

Yeah I have basically no advice unfortunately

[limpid zealot]

no worries, it's a bizarre set of circumstances that are uncommon anyway

[pearl isle]

Academia is infested with a lot of dishonest shithead abusers who take advantage of undergrads and early career researchers

[limpid zealot]

it's much worse here in that the lunatics run the asylum

there's plenty of other cases and scandals that get buried because the people involved run the committees looking into it

my second referee used to teach in the states and then came back here - he's banned from visiting any institution here because he writes about academic corruption in the news a lot

anyhow, thanks for the discussion - I suppose the best course is to just talk about it with the profs I'm currently involved with

[pearl isle]

Yeah I think so

[swift palm]

UGA says they want a list of math courses taken, but there is nowhere in the application portal to add this document. Does anyone know how to deal with this?

[limpid zealot]

if they don't have a document upload, then is there a section where they ask you to type it out?

[swift palm]

no.

Oh I think I need to upload it to program-specific supplemental materials under the resume sop writing sample etc section.

[smoky jetty]

That's probably correct

Doesn't hurt to email admissions though if you want to double check

[raw quail]

if my letter writer is a couple days late submitting the application I imagine that won't be held against me too hard?

[pearl isle]

Depends on the program but the vast majority of the time it won’t matter

[mossy niche]

is it worth submitting an incomplete thesis sample for applications that ask for an optional writing sample

[hot wadi]

no

[tacit lark]

Ask the people overseeing your thesis…

Idk what they expect for an optional writing sample. It also depends on how incomplete it is. You could always take certain chapters and make them self contained to submit.

[spring portal]

I think they are looking for language and how well they can write science, not the actual content itself

[limpid zealot]

Any ideas how late can the letters be? The internet has been shut down by authorities in several parts of the country, including where my recommenders are located

[glossy river]

Contact the universities about the situation.

Stay safe

[limpid zealot]

Alright, will do

[limpid zealot]

When listing research experiences, is the "hours per week" figure meant to refer to time you meet the supervisor in a week or time invested over the week?

[tacit lark]

i interpreted it as the amount of time you spent working on research

[limpid zealot]

Ah, that helps

[visual lagoon]

^what Jek said

[broken sphinx]

Is the grad application process difficult or people just overthink it

[glossy river]

the hard part is waiting for results

[limpid zealot]

Spotted this while setting up an app for Maryland and I thought of what you posted earlier

[paper granite]

The hardest part I’m finding is actually getting the time to do it on top of the other 15 things I have going on for uni right now

[visual lagoon]

I'd say the "difficult" part comes before the application process: doing solid coursework/maybe research, establishing good relations with potential letter writers, and carving out an area of interest that you want to work on to give you an idea of what schools and people to apply to. The actual application process is fairly tedious, but it is time-consuming.

[mossy niche]

i spent 3 days for 20+ apps but they're all submitted now

[visual lagoon]

Wow how did that only take 3 days

I spend 3 days for one app sometimes

[limpid zealot]

I did all the biographical stuff at registration time

all I have left are my statements

maybe Cat did it the same way

[visual lagoon]

Hmm I'm doing neuroscience applications so maybe it's a bit different, but each app has all sorts of different statement length requirements and ancilllary questions

[limpid zealot]

Ah! I see!

on most of my math apps the requirements are the same, with a statement on preparedness for math grad school

some spots have extra essays on more personal stuff, but the rest of it is fairly identical

[mossy niche]

basically all the work was editing my essays so that they fit the requirements for each university

[pearl isle]

Why tf is Zurich's app so annoying

god damn

1] why the hell do they need official copies of every doc 2] dog why the hell do they need my high school diploma...

[shell kindle]

Such is switzerland

[paper granite]

Just incase you managed to get through that maths UG without knowing how to complete the square

Got to be sure

[pearl isle]

Very cringe

I can’t lie

Let me submit screenshots

And unofficial transcripts

Don’t make me pay to submit unless I go there

Also the hs diploma requirement is dumb

Obviously I have one otherwise I wouldn’t have gotten in to college…

Actually I no longer have the physical copy which is the crux of the issue

But obviously I had one at some point

[pallid haven]

I’m a senior from the US who is applying to math masters programs. I had good grades (mostly As, some Bs) in my first two years of college (and this semester), but poor grades last year (mostly Bs, a few Cs in math classes). Last year I had insomnia due to living in the world’s loudest dorm building, which feels like a poor excuse. Would mentioning it be a good idea for schools that ask if you have any external circumstances you want to mention?

[mossy niche]

they probably won't view the excuse favorably

[pallid haven]

That’s what I assumed. Lots of students don’t sleep enough and still manage to get good grades

[mossy niche]

I would only mention these things if the application allows you to do so in a way where the normal application committee can't see it

the only uni I applied to that allowed that was berkeley

but there i mentioned how my chronic illness and multiple hospitalizations had some affects on my grades occasionally

otherwise I think the committee wants to judge solely on mathematically related factors and might see excuses as a negative, unless they are really significant

[mossy niche]

do they require you to submit by physical mail?

otherwise I would think buying an official transcript PDF is routine, since so many universities require official transcript scans

[pearl isle]

Most programs I’m applying to, bar one or two, allow unofficial transcripts until you commit to the school

[mossy niche]

my university does not offer a free transcript without seal or any sort of official market, which most of my applications required even though they were unofficial

I already ordered one for ndseg since an official one was required for it

[cosmic magnet]

Random question which I've prolly asked before. Would you be fine sharing some of the MS programs you're applying for? I realised that I may be aiming too high by applying to PhD programs directly

I'd say my grade profile is similar to yours so I definitely prioritize (funded) Master's programs

[tacit lark]

Guaranteed funded masters are hard to come by

Look at canada

[cosmic magnet]

I'm considering that as well. Some of the masters stipends are basically non-existent from what I heard though

Like for Waterloo it's around 15k CAD? That barely covers for rent so most students have to work part-time on top of that

[tacit lark]

Ya better than 20k+ for tuition plus no stipend

You’re correct that the stipends for ms students in canada are bad.

[pallid haven]

Sure! The ones on my list that fund masters at least some of the time are Central Michigan, Utah State, Western Washington and Western Kentucky

[cosmic magnet]

Thanks! I'm looking at Wake Forest and UFlorida since there websites seem to indicate that their programs are funded

[tacit lark]

Consider clemson

It may be applied math programs idk

[pearl isle]

That’s rough

That increases application costs by a lot

[mossy niche]

only 12 dollars for the pdf

[pearl isle]

Per school no?

Or nah

[mossy niche]

no, you just downlaod the pdf and upload them everywhere

[pearl isle]

Anyone familiar with the ETH Zurich app: when I fill out the transcript form should I include non math classes?

[pearl isle]

Alright guys 1 app down 17 more to go

[cosmic magnet]

0 apps done and an unspecified amount to go

[spring portal]

18??

wow

[pearl isle]

Yep

16 PhD 2 masters

[spring portal]

wow, must be rich , i am applying to 10 and it already feels too expensive
also my letter writers are so slow for 10 deadlines

the UCs take so much money, I am only applying to one of them

[pearl isle]

It is very expensive true

But I’ve been saving for it

I’ve pretty much saved the money I made during the last 2 years as a TA, and my REU paid us pretty well largely because they knew we would end up spending a lot of that money on apps

[spring portal]

nice

[pearl isle]

I’m not confident enough in my app to only apply to a few

Honestly

[spring portal]

I asked my parents to pay for these, they agreed

[spring portal]

idk if i am being overconfident with just 10 lmao

[pearl isle]

Nah you’re probably fine

I just have anxiety

I don’t want to have to reapply

[limpid zealot]

It's neat that you can manage - I'd do more myself as well if I could manage, but the economy here took a nosedive

[pearl isle]

Yeah rip

[spring portal]

well i mean same here, i have a nice combination of anxiety and ADHD, my plan B is also kinda non-existent, so I hope atleast one of my app goes through

[limpid zealot]

That's a fair reason honestly

Have you settled on a field to get into yet?

[pearl isle]

Something geometry/topology

Not sure more specifically

[limpid zealot]

ah, we're on a similar boat it seems

[pearl isle]

My research was knot theory which I liked but idk if I’d want to do it permanently

[limpid zealot]

that's fair

[pearl isle]

I’m applying to big schools so hopefully I’ll have some time to choose

[spring portal]

i can probably write more SOPs, but I cant probably afford any more app fees or run behind my recommenders with a pitchfork

[hardy aurora]

bruh

[pearl isle]

My recommenders thankfully were chill

[spring portal]

mine are very chill too, just brutally slow

[pearl isle]

Yeah fair

[limpid zealot]

Two of mine are very fast, last one is a bit slower with it

My recommenders are chill, I just can't afford a whole lot more apps

The USD here tripled in cost pretty fast

And there's more taxes on sending cash outside

[pearl isle]

Rip

[limpid zealot]

Combine that with stuff like TOEFL reports and it's a nightmare

[spring portal]

i am not sending a single test score

[pearl isle]

I’m sending a few

Subject gres mainly

[limpid zealot]

That's good if you can

[pearl isle]

To UCSD/UCSB/UCLA/Stanford/UT Austin

They all require it

[limpid zealot]

I'm in a no-exception country on the language scene despite being educated in English my whole life

[pearl isle]

Everywhere else I’m skipping it

My subject GRE also is kinda shitty unfortunately

It’s like 720

[spring portal]

if your medium of instruction was english most/all places should waive it off

[limpid zealot]

I'm applying to Austin as well, but I'm not sending mine in

[pearl isle]

Did you get a waiver?

[limpid zealot]

I checked in with each place, doesn't count for Pakistan

[pearl isle]

I thought it was like mandatory mandatory

[spring portal]

I got TOEFL waived everywhere yea

[pearl isle]

For Austin

I mean mGRE

[limpid zealot]

Recommended but not mandatory

[spring portal]

ah mb

[pearl isle]

Ah interesting

[limpid zealot]

I'm betting the farm on research and letters since my test score is garbage

What percentile was 720?

[spring portal]

i didn't even get a subject gre date for me, on the only day it was available for me I was in a different country attending a conference

[limpid zealot]

I think it'd be alright for domestic at least

[pearl isle]

58% 💀

So just above the middle I guess

[limpid zealot]

I'm at 44%
🤝

[pearl isle]

It’s rough

That test is too hard

[limpid zealot]

I do not know which undergrad program teaches Artinian rings

[pearl isle]

I also didn’t have time to study for it

[spring portal]

My commutative algebra class had aritinian rings and modules in it too 💀

[limpid zealot]

I studied for it, but I'm poor at doing math fast

[limpid zealot]

It makes sense for a CA class, but that's way past the expectation for the average undergrad

[spring portal]

i see

i am not a math major so idk what normal undergrads take

[pearl isle]

Tbh the advanced stuff wasn’t the hard part for me it was the probability

And the calculus

And the Euclidean geometry

[limpid zealot]

Same

[pearl isle]

Like I am ashamed to admit it but I highkey forgot how to do related rates problems

There were also quite a few multiple integrals that were supposed to be easy but I couldn’t figure out how to set them up

[limpid zealot]

I ran out of time mid-flow and messed up around the end, tanking my whole thing

[spring portal]

How strict are SOP word limits?

[limpid zealot]

Usually 1000-1200 words

Two pages

[pearl isle]

If they have a limit it’s usually enforced by a machine

So therefore hard limit

At least at the places I’ve seen

If you’re submitting a pdf they’re probably not gonna word count it

[spring portal]

i see, so i better start chopping things off lmao

[pearl isle]

But if you are significantly longer they might

And then you run the risk of them getting annoyed/thinking you can’t follow directions

[spring portal]

i am a little over 1000

[pearl isle]

Try to cut it

How much over

[spring portal]

yea 👍

uhh

150

[pearl isle]

That’s doable

Just by changing wording everywhere and being rlly harsh abt it

You prob don’t need to cut much content

I was the same

And I got it down

[spring portal]

i will see if i can remove something that's like least relevant

[pearl isle]

Go be brutal abt the wording first

You just need around 1 extra word every 6.5

So cut around a word per sentence and you should be fine

[spring portal]

👍

[limpid zealot]

The only thing I dread is the math class listing

In some cases it's just STEM classes

78 STEM classes total, will not be fun copy pasting

[limpid zealot]

Another thing you can do is just combining similar enough sentences

And honing in on the stronger points

[dire brook]

Naive question but, why does it feel like most people apply to the US compared to Europe, even though the former seems much more painful? Is a PhD in the US that much better in terms of quality or prestige?

[paper granite]

There’s just a lot of Americans in this server, plenty of people doing postgrad stuff in Europe too

[dire brook]

Yeah I figured that might be it, but then I also see a lot of intls

Though ig not that many Europeans in this channel

[glossy river]

Maybe also language barrier.

Most japanese stay in Japan, and there are a few Japanese in these server, but I assume they don't post because people speak English mainly here.

[undone yacht]

Many positions in Europe are not big open calls hiring many people, but for individual projects. That can happen any time during the year.

[spring portal]

As an international, for me the US PhD option seems more holistic and flexible.

[cosmic magnet]

For the Americans here, y'all needa get some sleep

it's Thanksgiving so enjoy that heavy meal😭🥧🦃

[dire brook]

Right, I'm much more of a "I just want to to do math(phys) research with this person"

[cosmic magnet]

(this includes me so I need to hit the bed asap)

[mossy niche]

you still need to explain why you were unable to take it for ut austin

[merry geode]

When I did my masters, my supervisor advised me to stay instead of going to the US

He said that it doesnt really matter as long as you publish quality maths

[merry geode]

Which I did, so my PhD is not from the mainstream countries

I didnt have any issue applying for postdoc either, in fact my issue was actually deciding where to go since I had multiple offers

I actually didnt really publish a lot tho

[dire brook]

Yeah I'm applying for PhDs next year (which should be a year where I do research, as part of my uni's diploma) and I kind of just don't want to apply to the us at all 😅

[merry geode]

Oh, my field is numerical analysis, which is still possible to publish during your PhD

I heard that in some field, it is almost impossible to publish during your PhD

[dire brook]

The plan being to land a good internship and then just stay with the same prof for PhD

[dire brook]

I'm a theoretical/mathematical physicist so we generally are expected to publish a few papers

[merry geode]

There are many good places in the US for sure, but I was just really turned off by the paperwork

Imagine I had to travel to just take the GRE just because my city didnt have one

[merry geode]

Are you more into the physics or the maths side?

[dire brook]

Physics

[merry geode]

Then definitely you have to publish

[dire brook]

Yeah

[dire brook]

I'm a physicist who skipped physics classes to go to math 😂

[merry geode]

The PhD graduates from my home uni back then did not have issues securing positions

Its a uni from the land down under

[merry geode]

Do you know the high profile journals in your field?

[dire brook]

Phys Rev D and JHEP are probably the top 2

[merry geode]

Nice, yep try your best to get published in those

Oh by the way, I also feel that the PhD qualifying exam is a waste of time

Not sure why unis in the US are still doing this

Your PhD supervisor should be able to judge whether you "qualify" to proceed in the program

[limpid zealot]

That's only as a measure if you were unable to take it due to special circumstances, e.g. unavailability - it's recommended, but it's not compulsory

[limpid zealot]

If you're from a riskier country, having a US PhD attached is a huge source of security

[merry geode]

Do they still give permanent visas easily if you have a PhD?

[limpid zealot]

Permanent visas to where? The US?

[merry geode]

Yea

[limpid zealot]

Not sure about it, honestly

[merry geode]

I heard that plenty of ppl apply for a PhD abroad to leave their home country

[glossy river]

Probably not, I have a friend who is likely gonna have to leave the USA because of the visa lottery system.

[merry geode]

Yea I guess so, because its getting much harder as well in Australia nowadays

[glossy river]

Huh are you Australian? I am currently in Australia.

[merry geode]

Back then, if you are an international student, getting a PhD from Australia is a sure ticket to live in Australia

[merry geode]

Nope, I did my PhD in Australia

[glossy river]

cool I am also doing PhD in Australia.

[merry geode]

[limpid zealot]

A lot of people pursue grad school abroad to live elsewhere, yeah - I'm doing it mainly because the only good doctorates are outside my home country

[merry geode]

I actually loved my PhD experience in Australia

Wouldnt want to go anywhere else

[glossy river]

Yeah, I love the wildlife here, so many different birds. And Australians are super nice.

[merry geode]

Thats very sensible, there arent many places in this world that have good PhD programs.

[limpid zealot]

Indeed

[merry geode]

But, depending on your field, you can find good PhD programs in obscure countries

[limpid zealot]

Absolutely

The environment here is odd in that an American doctorate makes you untouchable

As someone that so far is naive enough to think they can do something, I need leverage

[merry geode]

The US is a huge place tho

There are good and bad places too

[limpid zealot]

Indeed

I think if there's anything my earlier posts on this chat should suggest, it's that academia in Pakistan is highly illogical in how it acts

[paper granite]

I’ve got exactly 2 hours to write my first personal statement and update my CV, I’m sure this can only go well

[swift palm]

Stanford deadline approaching (3 dec) and 2 of my letter writers are afk despite I have reminded them by email yesterday 😭😭

[swift palm]

I am doing exactly this for US apps. I am applying to the US (except 1 england) rather than europe/elsewhere because 1-a VERY large portion of the research in my field is going on there 2-I want to live in the US long-term but "statistically" (read: the instances I know, which is actually a lot) europe phd stays in europe most of the time

[unreal quest]

Yeah same, I couldn't imagine starting a PhD without a specific supervisor and project. It's a massive gamble otherwise imo, plus there'd be the wasted time even if I ended up with the supervisor and project I wanted

[visual lagoon]

they've still got two weekdays to turn it in, I would remind them again the morning of the 2nd

[visual lagoon]

Well it is up to you whether you want to stay in Europe isn't it? It's not like once you do a PhD there you're trapped there

[dire brook]

Yeah I imagine it's just that people who want to stay in Europe would likely also choose to do their PhD in Europe, and same for US

[mossy niche]

my university has people who fail the quals and are kicked out because no one is willing to advise them. otoh if you have a faculty sponsor you can fail the quals and stay

[merry geode]

Tbh I cant even comprehend why people can get admitted into the program without a supervisor's approval

[mossy niche]

in the US admissions are by committee, since the USA undergrad is usually liberal arts focused so there's not an expectation that you have gone all in on math

many people have not done research, taken graduate classes, etc. and in some cases they literally had no opportunity to

depending on their undergrad institution, that's why the GRE is so important for those people

[shell kindle]

That's not quite the reason that US admissions are by committee

[mossy niche]

i wasn't listing it as a definite reason, just one reason why people get into programs without an advisor having selected them

[swift palm]

there are some whispers no one tells aloud/in public but it seems that it is harder to get a job in the US with europe phd than vice versa (when you control for the "level" of phd like top european school vs top us school)

[swift palm]

alright I'll do so

[pearl isle]

Not to defend the US system, but I think the people criticizing it are sorta misunderstanding the point of the system

In Europe, as I understand it most students do masters after bachelors before PhD

So it’s not like extremely common to do undergrad research in Europe either from what I’ve been told. Whereas in the US, the PhD and masters are bundled together to one program

This has the advantage that you don’t have to stress about applications again immediately after the masters, and also that things are completely funded for you this way

If you have a specific thing you want to research really early you can still apply to programs for specific advisors, but if you don’t know exactly what you want to do yet it seems to me the US system has more flexibility, at least compared to a European PhD

Tho again the US system is more combined masters + PhD so that’s possibly a slightly unfair comparison

[dire brook]

Yeah personally I am already doing a masters + a year of research (in Europe)

[pearl isle]

Yeah, if you’re already doing a masters then the US system makes less sense

In the US tho the vast majority of math undergrads skip the masters

And therefore it’s bundled with the PhD

That’s why the system is set up the way it is

[limpid zealot]

I'm not sure if this applies to all of Europe or wherever the masters is as removed from the doctorate, but I will add as an international at least

getting funding for a masters abroad is arduous

that gives a doctorate at the US a good deal of appeal - provided you clear the visa, you're covered as far as stipend stuff goes

[mossy niche]

what is maryland asking for here

theres also a separate supplemental pdf asking for all courses taken with textbooks

with the same information bar subject area

[main marlin]

Hello! I have a BS in Statistics and I'm working on a MS in CS. I might want to do a PhD in econ if the economy is poor in a few years (US citizen but I'm interested in developing economies, so I would be open to studying in east asia/europe as well). What can I do to gently prepare myself for this? I have already taken calc 1-3, linear algebra, probability, and statistics courses with at least a B in all of them. (UG GPA: 3.62). I do not have any econ course work completed. I can take optimization and time series courses during my masters but I'd rather take more CS focused courses. Any advice?

[tacit lark]

Talk to econ people

There is plenty of work at the intersection of econ and cs so you can look into that. But from what ive seen its more theoretical so like game theory, mechanism design, auctions…

[shell kindle]

If you want to do an econ PhD then you should know some Econ

[merry geode]

Real analysis. I heard thats a very important for getting admitted to a good econ PhD program.

[mossy niche]

this right here is the one class you need to take if you want to get into an econ phd, and its not even close

econ departments know that its easy to teach the economics, but not so much the math

[merry geode]

I agree, to be competitive probably one needs to take functional analysis as well.

[tacit lark]

I think it depend on what your research interests are

I think ug real analysis is strongly advised. Maybe basically a prereq. I dont think one needs functional analysis to be competitive…

[merry geode]

Is functional analysis not an ug course?

[main marlin]

kinda tangent but did you had to publish during ur undergrad as math-phy person for a phd position, or was it more focused on taking the relevant graduate courses given how hyper competitive the field is

[tacit lark]

This is pretty university dependent. In general I don’t think so.

[merry geode]

I see. I don't know much about ug programs in the US.

[pearl isle]

It’s offered as an elective at most places in the US. Can you honestly say that a majority of math majors in your country take functional? I would be very surprised to learn that

[merry geode]

In the current country I live in, the answer is yes.

I am in south korea.

And I am sure its even mandatory in china.

In the country where I did my PhD (Australia), its not but you can take it as an undergrad.

[visual lagoon]

At UPenn (USA), functional analysis is not part of the undergraduate mathematics curriculum in any form. The first time you would encounter it is in the second semester of a first-year PhD analysis course.

Of course, undergraduates can optionally take that course.

[pearl isle]

Every top university in the us you can take it as an undergrad it’s just an elective

It’s weird to mandate undergrads take functional to me especially when pretty much just the analysts are the ones who absolutely can’t get by without it

Maybe your country just has a lot of analysts

[mossy niche]

in many cases it is just part of the grad analysis sequence

i feel like berkeley is one of the few exceptions that offers it as an elective

[visual lagoon]

I know Swarthmore just offers a "Advanced Topics in Analysis" course which rotates between different topics year-to-year, including functional analysis. (It also doesn't seem to be offered every year, maybe it rotates with Advanced Topics in Algebra?) Swarthmore is undergraduate-only though.

[merry geode]

It is mandatory to take algebraic topology too (in china).

And also differential geometry.

[pearl isle]

Yeah I mean we also have a mandatory geometry requirement, we just can choose from alg top/ alg geo/diff top

I promise US schools aren’t as bad as Europeans like to pretend they are

I’m like #1 America hater until someone from another country is online talking shit I can’t lie

[mossy niche]

impressive, we dont even have a requirement for algebra or analysis

[cosmic magnet]

How💀

[visual lagoon]

Wow that's very surprising to me

We don't even have a topology requirement in general