graduate-applications

[stoic jewel]

it is not really 1 though, I got all 70s in my algebra courses....😭

[shy thunder]

I still wouldn't stress about it

[tacit lark]

Nothing you can do about it now

[shy thunder]

If your overall GPA is above 3 and u have a good stament and LoR, then you have nothing to stress nor worry about

[stoic jewel]

yeah you're right, I guess I'm just anxious

I could retake the exam but it's gonna be harder and I'm not rly confident I could do much better

Thank you 😭 now I dont feel like im gonna have a panic attack

[native atlas]

Where to look for Ph.D. positions in Operator Algebras in Europe?

[crimson valve]

So theres a few good places

denmark has a few good schools in it, notably university of copenhagen

germany has a few, with munster being a top school for op alg

KU lueven in belgium ofc

actually Gottenburg in sweden is currently hiring PHD students, and they have some good operator algebraists too

UK has a few good places, idk all of them, but oxford and glasgow are good

I dont know any of the french schools lol but they clearly have a lot of good op algists

this is my knowledge as a operator algebraist in north america, hope it helps

The Department of Mathematical Sciences (joint department of Chalmers
University of Technology and University of Gothenburg) is advertising 12
PhD student positions.

Students interested in NCG should apply to the position in the division
Analysis and Probability Theory, referencing for example one or more of
the following professors: Eusebio Gardella, Tatiana Shulman, Hannes
Thiel, Lyudmyla Turowska.

Deadline: 19. February 2024

For more information:
https://www.chalmers.se/en/about-chalmers/work-with-us/vacancies/?rmpage=job&rmjob=p12427

Feel free to share this information with your personal networks and any
Master students that might be interested.

for the gottenburg one

tatiana does work in the kind of stuff I do and she is really good^

[native atlas]

I have already looked into the places you have mentioned, but thanks a lot anyways!

[worthy apex]

Probably somewhere in Romania

[hexed light]

so im thinking about starting to study for the math gre subject test, and from what ive heard the best preparation seems to be just to go through all of the problems in schaums outline for calculus and linear algebra

but my concern is that by just doing each chapter in order

ill end up just forgetting or becoming rusty

at the contents of previous chapters

this kind of thing has never rly been a problem in actual math classes, because they’re highly cumulative and conceptual so forgetting things isnt as big of a problem

[granite marsh]

There’s a lot of problems in those, I think if you work through enough you’ll remember them fairly well

As someone who recently wrote the mGRE I would say my main issue was that I didn’t get into doing practice tests until just a few days before

And instead I focused too much on some of the obscure stuff I was worried may come up

[granite marsh]

Though I think that spacing out doing problems is a good idea

Go through a section and do some problems

Then review later and do more

Then a third time do the same

Should go a long way to making it route

[sullen hazel]

Is mGRE still important for admissions?

[granite marsh]

Not a fun test though lol

All the math I didn’t like

[granite marsh]

Idk if anyone can really answer that, but it seems to be getting phased out

Slowly

Some schools “strongly recommend it”

[daring kraken]

papitos

[smoky jetty]

Take a look at schools that look interesting

See if they required the mGRE

Judging by applying this sem

If people care about anything, it's usually more about mGRE than normal

But a ton a ton of places don't care about either

[sullen hazel]

"are encouraged to submit GRE mathematics subject examination scores, if available. However GRE scores are not a departmental admissions requirement."

[smoky jetty]

I didn't take it personally

[sullen hazel]

I didn't take it

It wasn't available in my country

I'll get tons of rejections anyway 😔

Arithmetic geometry is way too competitive

[hexed ibex]

It’s a tool to weed out people

90% is usually good enough for internationals

according to my advisor

[raw quail]

to be fair, even if programs do have a subject test requirement, you can email the department head and explain this and usually they'll waive it.

[waxen spire]

I took it, got a bad score, and then just didn't submit it

[raw quail]

yeah lmfao same tbh

[fallen wren]

Anyone go to or know anything about University of Waterloo?

Thinking of grad studies there but not sure what it's like

[paper granite]

I believe that @crimson valve is at Waterloo

[visual lagoon]

Alright, happy application season everyone! As people are getting results back, we're now closing the channel for the 2023-2024 application season. We'll open it back up again for the 2024-2025 application season. To everyone waiting for decisions, we wish you the best of luck!

[worthy apex]

Good luck to everyone who applied!

[visual lagoon]

Hello!

We're reopening this channel for the 2024–2025 application season. It's dedicated to questions and discussions surrounding to the graduate school (Master's/PhD) application process, as well as any other sort of postgraduate applications, grant applications, or fellowship applications (this channel does not include undergraduate applications). We want the channel to be positive and professional, avoiding any sort of doom-and-gloom and toxicity. As before, please avoid any "chance me" or "what's the minimum to get into X" posts. We highly encourage talking to an advisor or someone who is otherwise experience and knows you personally for detailed advice on where to apply. Happy application season!

The Senior Moderator staff

[visual lagoon]

To start off the discussion, I'm wondering if we have any interdisciplinary people here who have insight into how much the graduate school application process differs between different fields (pure math, applied fields, natural science, philosophy, etc.). I'm personally planning on applying to PhDs in computational neuroscience, but I'm curious about any sort of stories about interdisciplinary experiences 🙂

[tacit lark]

I am a CS PhD student, but I also applied to math programs. The main difference is that CS seems to care a lot more ab research experience than math.

[dusty trellis]

Ohh it is open! Does it also mean I am late at trying to start preparation

[slender dune]

Does anyone have experience applying to European math masters from not Europe?

[smoky jetty]

definitely not lol

[candid quarry]

Might as well give up and try again next year at this point

[flint sundial]

I thought applications start around November time?

[visual lagoon]

I haven't started either, don't worry

[fresh kindle]

I remember I started mine in like

October

[visual lagoon]

I should get on making a list and scrolling potential advisors' websites

[fresh kindle]

Bad idea lol

Made my first term so difficult

[visual lagoon]

When do you wish you started

[fresh kindle]

Cause I was managing doing applications and trying to learn hard maths

[fresh kindle]

Uh idk to be honest

I’m not very good at like…

Medium-term or long-term stuff

But certainly earlier than “already starting lectures for the new year”

[visual lagoon]

Lol fair

[fresh kindle]

I mean it worked out and all

But I could’ve saved myself a lotta stress

I guess I also got v worried about my application cause I didn’t exactly have much research experience

(Or to be precise much successful research experience…)

[smoky jetty]

yea do this

[smoky jetty]

tbh the prep you should do now is
1: line up your letters of rec (you need 3)
2: start drafting a personal statement

it'll probably be shit, all first drafts are as we all know

so give yourself the time to edit now over the summer

• your letter writers may want to see your personal statement

[visual lagoon]

ohh right spamakin you did grad apps last year right

[smoky jetty]

mine did

ya

[visual lagoon]

luckily I applied to some reus last year so I can reuse a bunch of stuff with edits

[smoky jetty]

nice

yea I did the same

[dusty trellis]

Yeah, I will do that now. Thanks!

[kind mantle]

btw how big of a deal are reus in europe? meaning if you did well on a reu, is that on avarage putting you in a better or worse position to someone who mostly did self-study in somethig advanced?

(meaning do schools put more emphasis on learning in advance or early research expirience)

[frail turret]

from most of what i've heard, european institiutions aren't massively interested in either undergrad research or self-study. Having undergrad research is probably worth it compared to not having it, while self-study is very difficult to evidence in a grad application -- but from what i've heard they're mainly interested in your undergrad itself and what classes you took and your grades in them.

[urban raft]

Yeah

I think they care mostly about your masters, especially the thesis, and also letters of rec

(for continental europe)

[spring portal]

I have quite an interdisciplinary background. I work across EE (which is my major), Deep learning, math (primarily solutions of PDEs) and quantum physics.

I plan to apply to PhD programs not based on discipline (since I won't fit into 1 single department) but based on my area of interest, current area of interest is quantum information science.

What I have seen is that, predominantly, most US universities do a holistic review of an applicant, so I have better chances there than in most European universities, where they evaluate primarily based on grades.

There are also some programs which are interdisciplinary.

UCB offers a program named PhD in Science and Technology for people who don't stick to one domain. There is a Japanese university called OIST which has no departments. They also offer a PhD.

[raw quail]

oh I did not know about OIST

that's kinda neat

it seems like they kinda fall into de-facto departments anyways but it's still neat

[spring portal]

You only get admitted to PhD and not any discipline or unit, so you can freely move across fields. I have seen people switch from molecular biology to quantum networks.

[raw quail]

do you not like initially get admitted to one unit? they have this big chart of open phd positions across units and years

oh nvm I actually read it now

For applicants wishing to enroll in the OIST PhD program, finding placement in a thesis research lab will occur during the first year of enrollment. Therefore, when choosing Faculty of Interest, please check the lab availability one year ahead (for example, if you wish to enroll in 2022, please check the lab availability in 2023). Please note that students are accepted to the OIST program in general and will go through lab matching process before admission to any one lab. It is important to list your Faculty of Interest, but it is not necessary to contact faculty to get their approval or support prior to applying.

reading things frequently explains them!

[spring portal]

No, first 2 years is coursework + 3 lab rotations. You need to work with 3 professors on short term. Then, you select your PI from them.

Also they have an amazingly beautiful campus

But getting in is very hard, since they limit number of accepted students to ~50 (per year)

[raw quail]

right, makes sense, I also kinda have the sneaking suspicion they will be tougher on someone trying to get back into academia

[spring portal]

Yeah, its fully funded though so money is never a worry

[raw quail]

yeah, it's definitely going on my consideration spreadsheet

[spring portal]

I am going there this October for a conference

[smoky jetty]

wow that's a cool sounding program

[raw quail]

ok different question: is it feasible to go from a stats/data sci masters to a pure math PhD or will that somehow be harmful to my future PhD applications? I've been struggling to get into a PhD for a couple years now, and I need like an actual career to hold me over until I get in somewhere. Would a data science masters be worthwhile thing?

[spring portal]

PhD is more about fit. Are the places you are applying for do research in that field and can you provide results for them.

[raw quail]

right, I'm particularly interested in logic, and like I've been looking for places that do it, but I think there's a lot of competition and not a lot of spots

[spring portal]

Try for masters, try to get few publications and research experience while you are there, I think that will give you a edge and good chances when you apply for PhD.

[raw quail]

yeah, I think the research is the part of my application that's lacking, my only research project never turned into a paper

[spring portal]

Although PhDs are historically meant to train people into research, due to heavy competition, these days you definitely need prior research experience to have decent chance at admissions

[dusty trellis]

I am not knowledgeable but data science degree does not sound helping for math degree.

Welp, is prior research needed for admission. I am cooked

[spring portal]

I will say it depends on how you approach it. If you keep it math heavy (which you absolutely can) then you can join some math or cs PhDs.

[dusty trellis]

I think many mathematicians does not view the data sci degree preferably (as hype is involved), just my observation.

[spring portal]

I am not saying its a must, but it will be very helpful and boost your chances

[raw quail]

right, the plan would be to apply for some data sci program as a safety an pursue a career in that while I continue throwing my application at PhD programs

[spring portal]

Maybe you can try for applied math programs, I have not seen applied math research areas since I am not interested in those

[dusty trellis]

Yeah true

I should expect not getting any opportunities, I guess.. failed to produce valuable research even at grad atm

Ah, sorry for interfering

[spring portal]

It's fine, dont be too hard on yourself

[dusty trellis]

Is there any chance that a note I put some efforts in could help?

Also what are the US unis roughly around ranking 100th

[spring portal]

Check QS and THE rankings (though they have different evaluation criteria)

[spring portal]

Probably in the personal statement

[dusty trellis]

Yeah sorry, I meant to ask slightly better ones. Tho this ask is meh, I guess

[urban raft]

for grad schools probs us news is a better shout?

especially if you know what subject you're applying for

also do you mean 100 in the US or 100 worldwide?

[dusty trellis]

100 in the US

[tacit lark]

Ik there is a new quantum-related program at Harvard which is interdisciplinary. Ik some people in it and they like it.

[spring portal]

Ooh, thanks for the heads up, I will look into it

[spring portal]

Looked at it and now I know which program to apply for in Harvard.

It looks like a good fit for me

[main marlin]

what's the current stance of universities about the GRE (general or subject) test? I've seen that there are still universities that require the subject test, but many don't let you send it and some say it's optional. This is confusing because when they say it's optional, does it mean that:
(a) a good GRE score will boost your application or
(b) you will submit it and nobody will look at it because it's not required after all and will make it less fair to compare it to other admissions or
(c) it won't boost your application but if you get a low score they'll be more inclined to reject (which would be weird)

[spring portal]

Some don't take them, some say its optional, some recommend them. So its quite diverse. I will say take it, if you get a good score, submit it. A good score will boost your app a bit, but a bad score might reflect badly imo, not submitting it would be better in that case.

[smoky jetty]

I did not take either GRE

I wish I took the subject GRE

[main marlin]

why?

[smoky jetty]

since some schools I wanted to apply to required it

namely in my case UC Davis, USC

And I guess I got rejected by all schools I applied to that recommended subject GRE

but of course idk if that was because of subject GRE (those schools were definitely reach schools for me)

[burnt nymph]

Those schools are insane. The GRE is completely worthless

[smoky jetty]

well Davis and USC had some faculty I was deeply interested in working with

but I didn't realize until it was too late

but I got into plenty of other schools that I don't regret anything really

[burnt nymph]

The subject matter is trivial for anyone who did an undergrad in it. It’s just a bunch of trivial questions with a time crunch, something no one would trip up on if not for the time crunch. But anxiety and shit will make you trip up and hate yourself for it. It’s a stupid ableist format and standard.

[smoky jetty]

I would start making a list of schools you are interested in

[burnt nymph]

It tells you nothing about if someone would do well in a PhD

[smoky jetty]

and start noting down the following information

[burnt nymph]

thank you for the advice

[fresh kindle]

Dang, I didn’t realise the maths gre was like that

[smoky jetty]

• Application due date
• What writing material they want
• Potential faculty you could work with
• How many letters of rec you need (assume 3 for all schools tbh)
• what GRE requirements they have
• application fees + what fee waivers you qualify for (for example many give waivers for participating in an REU)

[sterile bone]

It's also just an unfair amount of time per question given some of the computations take a while

[burnt nymph]

I think all the schools I had on my list were GRE optional

[sterile bone]

I think most schools now are GRE optional

[burnt nymph]

Yeah the faculty are the most important.

[spring portal]

half of it is just calc 1&2 iirc

[sterile bone]

The only one I know that still asks for it is ucla

[smoky jetty]

For a sense of when applications are due

[sterile bone]

Maybe tamu but I know you can get it waived

[smoky jetty]

here were all my due dates

12-05-2023
12-08-2023
12-15-2023
12-15-2023
12-15-2023
12-15-2023
12-15-2023
12-15-2024
01-01-2024
01-05-2024
01-15-2024
01-15-2024
01-15-2024
01-15-2024
01-18-2024
02-01-2024

[fresh kindle]

I see

[smoky jetty]

12/15 was hell cause I had a final that day 😭

[fresh kindle]

I did the physics GRE, not the math one

[spring portal]

I have to take p GRE too

[burnt nymph]

Landsberg does cool work, but imagine willingly going to Texas as a trans woman

[spring portal]

Since its recommended in some places I wish to apply for

[smoky jetty]

Landsberg does super cool stuff I gotta read his work more

[fresh kindle]

I see

[smoky jetty]

he gave some nice talks at my undergrad

and I have a friend doing reading with him rn

[fresh kindle]

Well for the physics GRE the main book is “conquering the physics GRE”

[burnt nymph]

The list I had last time was CU Boulder, Columbia, UC Berkeley, U Toronto, U Waterloo, Caltech, U Maryland, U Washington, and U Chicago

[smoky jetty]

CU Boulder is cool

[burnt nymph]

I can’t recite all the faculty I’d like to work with at every school but I’m sure I can find them again

[smoky jetty]

exceedingly pretty campus

[smoky jetty]

as long as you have it written down

add THE Ohio State University to that list

[burnt nymph]

It’s not written down atm but I’d just check the theory group lol

[smoky jetty]

oh maybe not OSU then

CS theory doesn't seem to exist outside of one or two people (at least for the stuff I want)

oh CU Boulder has Grochow he's awesome

I talked to him while visiting Boulder

[main marlin]

how to choose schools of interest if you don't know the faculty (except for looking at their pages and publications)?

[smoky jetty]

look at pages and publications lol

but also ask faculty at your school

who work in the area of math you are interested in

they'll know some sleeper picks (that's how I got alot of my list)

[burnt nymph]

He’s amazing in every way.

[smoky jetty]

r u into Alg/Geo complexity theory? I forget

[main marlin]

wish my university had such people

[burnt nymph]

Me?

[smoky jetty]

I should start using the notes feature in Discord lol

ya

[smoky jetty]

hmmm fair enough

yea idk papers and publications

[burnt nymph]

I’d like to learn a little bit about it. But I’ve mostly chosen quantum computing now. Previously I was in between picking ACT/GCT and quantum computing.

[smoky jetty]

ideally they have a website

and even more ideally they have a research statement of some sort

[burnt nymph]

Maybe I still have some indecisiveness, but I lean towards quantum computing atm

[smoky jetty]

I wish I took some quantum computing courses at my UG

[burnt nymph]

I was fortunate enough to take one

[smoky jetty]

too many profs don't have websites

those profs I just ignored

[burnt nymph]

mhmm

[smoky jetty]

and didn't add to my potential faculty list unless I already knew of their work some other way

[main marlin]

I think my best bet is to apply to big schools that have as many people working in my field of interests as possible

[smoky jetty]

because I don't think it's realistic to go through every faculty at every school and start reading papers / abstracts lol

[smoky jetty]

this is not a bad strat!

and fortunately there are many fantastic big schools

also tbh if you know what area you're interested in

you could ask here for some recs

[burnt nymph]

Nearly every school I looked at had only one person working on my interests (or 2 at most)

[smoky jetty]

CS theory moment

[burnt nymph]

But if you can find schools with lots of people great

[smoky jetty]

(for what it's worth UIUC has some fantastic quantum computing folks)

[burnt nymph]

oh?

[smoky jetty]

ya

[limpid zealot]

Are there any systematic ways to finding institutes that have professors that work on a specific field or niche?

[smoky jetty]

https://siebelschool.illinois.edu/research/areas/theory-and-algorithms
(new hire): https://granha.github.io/
https://www.dakshitakhurana.com/
https://makrandsinha.github.io/

[burnt nymph]

ty for the personal sites

[smoky jetty]

CS is 100x better than math about people having sites

there is also 1 algebraic complexity person at UIUC: Forbes but I can say more about him in DMs if you're interested in working with him

[burnt nymph]

Thank you for the information. I’ll add UIUC to the list of consideration.

[smoky jetty]

🔥

I had a good time there as an UG, their CS theory group was definitely a home to me often in more ways than the math group there

[burnt nymph]

That’s good to hear :)

[smoky jetty]

the ideal is asking profs at your school who work in the area you want to work in

but otherwise start looking at pages of profs at schools you've heard of (many big state schools in the US are at least worth looking at IMO)

[burnt nymph]

I did both those haha

[limpid zealot]

I see - thanks a bunch!

[smoky jetty]

see who does what at those schools

maybe some names come up alot as coauthors

check those people out

[burnt nymph]

well, I heard of profs and schools mostly by looking at papers and citations

[smoky jetty]

etc etc

[main marlin]

One of my problems is that I'm not very familiar with modern math because I've just finished a CS undergrad recently at a low rank university, but I'm also starting a math (analysis) masters this September here, after that I think I might go into algtop related stuff (that's what inspired me initially to do math) or who knows what else I might have an interest in, as I'm still in the process of exploring

[smoky jetty]

I see I see

unfortunately I know nothing about analysis or alg top so I can't personally give more specific advice 😭

[main marlin]

I'll be doing analysis because that's the only thing they offer (it's also for improving GPA and getting more math knowledge to be able to move to better universities)

[burnt nymph]

I’d really recommend start learning math on your own

if you’re interested in a topic just start reading textbooks on it and maybe even papers if necessary

don’t wait to take a course

[main marlin]

been reading stuff this summer but it's going very slow and depressing

courses are mainly for GPA though since I didn't focus on high grades during my undergraduate

[burnt nymph]

From a quick peek Sinha definitely has the strongest overlap with my interests and would be worth investigating further, probably worth applying for (quantum complexity ftw).

And having a school with an ACT person maybe to talk to or take a course with or seminar is a plus.

Thank you.

[main marlin]

what does everyone think about people having 2 masters in different math areas?

I've seen some negative opinions but would like to see more (because that's what I might end up doing)

[main marlin]

by the way what's your area of interest (in case I eventually find it interesting too), from your roles I can see alggeo and combinatorics, is that it?

[smoky jetty]

algebric combinatorics, algebraic complexity theory, computational commutative algebra/algebraic geometry

the exact mix is in constant fluctuation depending on what I read about most recently 😵‍💫

[main marlin]

Complexity theory is cool (although I don't know what algebraic complexity theory is about). Would you say that theoretical CS research is active today (if we discard AI)

[smoky jetty]

Very very active

Graph algorithms, combinatorial optimization are as strong as ever

Computational geometry seems to be big still

[uncut storm]

wtf

wtf

[smoky jetty]

"Newer" areas like pseudorandomness, fine-grained complexity, algebraic complexity are flourishing

[main marlin]

I suppose those people are in CS (not math) departments right?

[smoky jetty]

Yes

I haven't even mentioned anything related to formal methods or programming language theory

Cryptography of course is huge

There's a lot out there

[main marlin]

interesting, I've been living under a rock it seems

[smoky jetty]

I mean it's largely a function of what you've been exposed to

I was fortunate to go to an undergrad with a very strong CS (including CS theory) program

And so despite not majoring in CS I still had the opportunity to see many things

[tacit lark]

Like spamakin said its extremely active.

[tacit lark]

And quantum complexity/information/cryptography, coding theory, many algorithms fields like sublinear algorithms…

[smoky jetty]

yea

[main marlin]

it's interesting because I see and hear about a lot of people going into math, but not theoretical CS (I only know one such person who ended up studying communication complexity)

(again discarding AI stuff)

[tacit lark]

Ofc theoretical cs is going to be smaller than math

But yea its active

[raw quail]

Complexity theory does have the highest activity to results ratio after all

I think it depends what you mean but I was under the impression algebraic complexity theory was dead? (Like VP vs VNP stuff?)

[smoky jetty]

depends who you ask I think

and what you count as alg complexity theory (i.e. how broad)

but this convo shouldn't be in this channel

[raw quail]

Yeah true

[smoky jetty]

#advanced-lounge

[brazen helm]

Hi

[lilac grail]

how do you figure out if you are a good fit for a grad program?

[fresh kindle]

There’s lots of different factors at play, but I suppose you can separate them into how good a fit you are maths-wise, and how good a fit you are location-wise

Which are kind of independent

[spring portal]

Whether the department does research on the topic of your interest and if yes, how much (say, they do have publications at regular intervals). This is the main factor. Then you might need to ponder upon if you have skills they need.

Fit goes both ways, you need to have skills they need, they need to offer research you like. If both criterias match, then you might have a good chance of getting in, provided that you are well-rounded.

[visual lagoon]

Is emailing professors to set up meetings before submitting your application standard in US math grad applications? It seems to be standard in neuroscience.

[hexed ibex]

In certain fields your entire funding package depends on your PI

Especially in labs

so people get tied to one PI upon admission

usually not the case for math in the US

but is more often in Canada I believe

In Europe I have no clue

Doesn’t hurt to try but they rarely respond anyway

[dusty trellis]

I heard that "strong motivation" is an important factor considered for graduate apps. Is this true?

Do they see if a person is driven by certain vision? Or is it just an addition to GPA and research experience

[urban raft]

this depends pretty heavily on country as well

in the UK, I think it's pretty common to email people before hand, as you apply to work with a specific person (with notable exceptions like LSGNT), and then funding is usually decided separately

whereas in quite a few countries in the EU, a PhD is treated as a job, so you are employed by the university and you get a wage, pensions and so on. In these cases, it's more like applying to a job. Still useful to email people though

[fresh kindle]

And it even varies between subjects

I think the physics application process felt fairly different to the math one

[urban raft]

yeah the above is for (pure) maths

[fresh kindle]

Which is the more relevant one here, of course

[urban raft]

and from what I've heard it differs between theoretical and experimental physics as well

[fresh kindle]

Yes, I’ve heard that too

[urban raft]

might be less relevant to the US, but also just knowing how well you'll get on with your prospective supervisor (i.e. the "vibes") are pretty important as well

(obviously this goes the other way as well, they'll try to see if you're a good fit as well)

[half meadow]

Imagine you're on an admission committee. The budget office has told you you can take in N PhD students this year, but you have a lot more than N applicants. Whom do you offer to?
Your overwhelming priority at this stage will be to maximize the number of doctorates you get to actually award in the end. That means, minimize the risk that the ones you pick will flunk out, drop out, or burn out before that. A distant secondary consideration is to try to find people who will become brilliant and famous and bring glory to your department, but that is generally acknowledged to be pretty much impossible to predict at the grad app stage anyway.
Grades and test scores can be used to whittle down your shortlist to people who probably won't flunk out, but that will still be more than you can admit. After that, you start looking for signs of the motivation and willpower to plow through a PhD study even at the (inevitable) low points where they'll be tempted to drop out. That's much less of an exact science, but even as you sigh and admit to yourself you're mostly working from guesswork, there's a job to do, so you do the best you can with the information you have available (rec letters, personal statements, whatever) and produce a ranking from that ...

[dusty trellis]

Thanks for in-depth explanation!

That said.. I do not know how to demonstrate "I would not flunk out"

[half meadow]

That's generally why you submit transcripts and letters to certify that your math skills are up to snuff.

[dusty trellis]

@half meadow Ah sorry, I did not know what "flunk out" means.

Tho I am concerned because my grades aren't 4.0

Rather than that, how do I demonstrate that I would not burn out/drop out?
(Honestly I am not sure if I could avoid burnout..)

[fresh kindle]

Yeah I guess I implicitly filed this under location

[fresh kindle]

If you aren’t then you should have a serious think about why you want to do a phd

Like idk, you should definitely value your time and mental health

[dusty trellis]

I want to do research and there is certain direction I want to go, but that does not mean I can go that way

[fresh kindle]

If you’re going into a phd expecting to burn out, that’s not a great start

[dusty trellis]

And yeah, part of it is mental health issue

It's just that I feel like burning out now. Part of it is not being settled on which route to take, but still.

[half meadow]

That's a harder question which I don't have a good answer to. I was just trying to shed light on why it matters.

[fresh kindle]

like, I really don’t think you should intentionally put yourself through burnout

[dusty trellis]

Thanks again, tropo!

It helped a lot!

[fresh kindle]

aww

[dusty trellis]

Intentionally put through burnout? May I ask what you mean?

[fresh kindle]

Well, here

If you already feel like burning out, I’m not so sure doing a phd now is a good idea

[dusty trellis]

Well, I feel burnt out from life itself

[fresh kindle]

and that’s something you should take some time to deal with, I think!

[dusty trellis]

Not sure I could get hired either, which is the issue for me

[fresh kindle]

right yeah, it is difficult…

it’s just probably the main piece of advice I received when applying for phds

you wanna minimise your own risk of dropping out/burning out

not just because it’ll help your application

[dusty trellis]

Also yeah, there is something I want to research but I just cannot, which is a huge factor.

[fresh kindle]

but like. because it’s important to value your life and mental health?

[dusty trellis]

Indeed.

I wish I were not so isolated, then I would not feel like this.

[fresh kindle]

i see…

[smoky jetty]

in math I don't think it matters

but you're right in neuroscience and other lab sciences it seems to matter

the way my brother puts it (he wants to bio stuff) is that in lab sciences it seems like applying is almost a formality

you and your would-be-PI at that school should basically already know you're going to work together in some sense before you apply

at least that's my understanding from him

[smoky jetty]

which seems to track with what Iteribus said here

VS in math you aren't expected to even have an advisor in your first 1-2 years

you're mostly taking courses and shopping around different areas

[visual lagoon]

A lot of neuroscience programs seem to have rotations where you work in a different lab every six months and then choose at the end of your second year or smth

It's interesting how it differs

[smoky jetty]

oh interesting

that seems nice

[smoky jetty]

I will add to this that rec letters do play a large part of this

I would also say that your personal statement plays a large part of this

but I've heard multiple professors say that they personally barely look at the personal statement

but also you can't control what goes in the rec letters but you can control the personal statement so make it as good as possible

[dusty trellis]

How much preparations do one need to do for grad app?

[raw quail]

I'm not sure what you mean?

Like it will probably eat up a fair amount of your time if that's what you're asking

The most time consuming element is probably the SOPs

[dusty trellis]

I heard it is difficult to manage in 6 months.

Anyway, worse demotivating aspect would be that.. I have prior conference experiences, sadly.

[smoky jetty]

right now what you can and should do is

• line up your letters of recommendation (find your 3 people)
• Find out which schools you are applying to (at least a partial list, you can always cut down later so more the merrier)
• Start writing your statement of purpose
• Start making your CV

yes that's alot (and tbh basically everything)

but better to start now than to start when classes also are in session

[dusty trellis]

I find the letters of recommendations aspect the most difficult.

[smoky jetty]

better to start thinking now then

• whoever you pick will need time to write ofc

or well

they'll say they want time

but probably they'll write it the day they're due

but since they say they'll want time you should ask early

[dusty trellis]

I dunno, think they'll say I am bad

[pearl isle]

Ask them not just if they can write you a letter but if they can write you a strong letter. Assure them that you’ll be perfectly fine should they have any desire to decline (even if it’s not true)

[dusty trellis]

Yeah, I mean.. I feel like no one would accept writing a letter for me

[pearl isle]

Well then you gotta take another year till you can get three people to write them

Take a gap year and get good recs your senior year

If you still can’t get good recs after that then yeah you probably won’t have much luck applying

There are definitely places that will take you with mid rec letters tho

[dusty trellis]

Yeah, I see. Just wanted to see if I do stand a chance.

Guess I don't.

[pearl isle]

Have you actually asked professors yet or are you just midnight doom posting

Oftentimes nice professors will write good letters for you even if you just took their class

[dusty trellis]

I do have one professor (or two) who would write favorably for me

[pearl isle]

Good so you need two or one more

That’s not such a tall order in 3 months

Take classes with someone at your university known to be nice

And go to office hours

[dusty trellis]

For others, not sure. Was going to ask to a prof I took a class from

But I dunno if saying I am accurate is a good thing or not.
Maybe the prof does not recall me, then better seek for others?

[flint sundial]

Does it really matter if the prof knows you? Because I don't really have a close relationship with any of my professors...

[dusty trellis]

Oof

[pearl isle]

If the professor doesn’t recall you he won’t agree to write a strong letter of recommendation

So ask him anyway

[proper dirge]

note that your statment of purpose might (often will) need to be changed for each specific school, but the general draft is the hard part, rest is just modifying. @dusty trellis

[visual lagoon]

You should try to establish close relationships with profs

(At least for US grad school apps, idk how it works elsewhere)

[flint sundial]

Shit. It's a little late with that lol, I finished all my classes

I mean I have a pretty close relationship with one professor, but he's CS. Would it make sense to send in a letter of recommendation from him if I want to get into a math grad school?

[visual lagoon]

Wait, you're already done four years of undergrad??

Are you older than me wtf

[flint sundial]

Here it's three
And I started in HS lol

[flint sundial]

I don't think so lol

[visual lagoon]

Okay take my words with a big grain of salt, idk how this process works (I'm applying too yayyyy). I'd guess that if he can vouch for your work ethic, dedication, etc. with way more specific details than any other professor can, then you should probably ask him.

[flint sundial]

I thought you were already doing your PhD?

And thank you so much!!

[fresh kindle]

wait eric I thought you were applying this year

[flint sundial]

Didn't we talk about you giving recitations?

[outer reef]

depends on what you’re interested in math-wise & what kind of CS courses he taught you in

and probably to some extent what kind of CS he works in

[flint sundial]

I see, thank you!

[outer reef]

i can comment on it if you elaborate on those points

[visual lagoon]

Yeah

[visual lagoon]

Yes, I'm an undergraduate though. Rather common at my uni.

[flint sundial]

Ayyy same

[visual lagoon]

Oh hey welcome back to the server btw!

[fresh kindle]

it is weird to feel like I’m older than you

[outer reef]

thx

[flint sundial]

Ah so he taught me programming languages (lambda calc and whatnot), but I'm doing a project with him which is more to do with natural language processing. He does research on automated reasoning, and I'm interested in model theory

He does work with model theory, so his research is as close to what I'm interested as possible in the CS world I think

[outer reef]

ok then yes seems like a no brainer

[smoky jetty]

For my PhD apps, I had 1 CS prof and 1 math prof and 1 aerospace prof

CS prof was a guy I was an undergrad TA for

aerospace prof was a guy I did graph algos research with

math prof was from REU

(so no math profs from my university for what it's worth)

[flint sundial]

Oh that's interesting, thank you very much!

[fresh kindle]

For my apps I had 3 physics profs

But I did physics

[spring portal]

I have 2 EE profs and 1 communication engg. Prof who can write LORs for me for... physics and QSE programs

[inner cedar]

In the US, do they admit grads only during fall semester, or also during spring?

[void horizon]

my institution admits for both fall and spring

[pearl isle]

Some admit for both but it’s more rare

[hot wadi]

yeah there are unis that have both admissions

in the us and canada too

[raw quail]

i think it's slightly more common in canada?

canada seems to kinda awkwardly sit in between the US and European systems

[inner cedar]

ah, I see, thanks for the input (to all).

[hot wadi]

yes it is

wish me luck boys i applied for them anyways

and girls

and all

[raw quail]

You already sent out applications?

[hot wadi]

yeah

i should get a decision at around october ig

[fresh kindle]

Good luck!

[hot wadi]

thank you! really stressing shit honestly

i now figure out why this channel is alwayhs so toxic

i understand honestly grad apps are really depressing times

everyone is so out of mood

lmao

[hallow portal]

Dang that’s a fast application

[dusty trellis]

Is this place toxic? Oh

[half meadow]

The complaints about the supposed toxicity can get fairly toxic, yes.

[visual lagoon]

Hopefully it's not toxic 🥺

[main aspen]

So, I know as someone who will (if they end up applying) be applying next year, this may be a bit early to ask
But how do you figure out what area(s) you want to do a PhD in?
Like, I know generally I like “geometry inspired algebra” (as one of my friends put it, and I find hard to disagree with)
But what exactly I like within that tends to shift a lot
(Context: I’m in the UK, doing a 3 year Bachelor’s + 1 year integrated master’s, going into the 3rd year of my bachelors)

[tepid forum]

fwiw a lot of people don't have an area completely zoned in and sometimes go in with "I like analysis/algebra/geometry/etc."

nor are you really locked into an area once you're on a PhD, there's a lot of wiggleroom for exploration and sometimes people's interests end up diverging a bit from that of their supervisor

[urban raft]

also like it probably makes sense to apply to a fairly large number of places/supervisors and then see where that leads you

(I applied to 7, which in restrospect was a kind of small number fwiw)

[tepid forum]

oh yeah esp with the US, esp since you're not assigned a supervisor straight away I'd make sure there's more than one possible person

[urban raft]

also in the UK I feel like it's now pretty common to have two supervisors

like a lot of people on my CDT have two (or more)

so like you can have two supervisors who work on pretty different areas, and do work somewhere inbetween

[spring portal]

To play the devil's advocate, although you are not locked in when you enter a PhD as george! said, many would expect you to showcase particular area(s) of interest, particularly if you apply for ambitious places.
Although, fairly speaking, you need not stick with that topic once you start research, but if you are very general or don't display much interest in particular area research in that institute, you maybe rejected, because the admissions committee might have thought the candidate was not ready, or is not a good fit even if you were actually a good fit. So, just keep it in mind ig. I think this applies more to US, where you decide on thesis area after you enter a PhD, unlike European unis.

[pearl isle]

Surely it’s not as bad as mathgre.com

Where people with 4.0 492818283 grad classes and 300 published papers can’t get into Ohio state

[main aspen]

Yeah and that’s why I’m asking now
I’m kinda trying to decide between something more algtop-y or alggeo-y

[pearl isle]

Unfortunately (as someone who likes alg top) alg geo is way way way more in vogue and you may want to factor that in your decision

[main aspen]

I do know that

[pearl isle]

A lot of popular alg top nowadays is in the low dimensional and differential side of things eg: floer/khovanov homology

[urban raft]

homotopical stuff does seem to be making a comeback though

I've heard from a few leading symplectic topologists that they're looking at Floer homotopy theory

and like homotopic stuff applied to alg geo does seem to be getting traction

[urban raft]

even then, (from an outsider's point of view), symplectic has grown a lot, contact geometry as well, but the more gauge theoretic side seems to have quietened down a bit

[urban raft]

sounds like you should do symplectic topology then

[main aspen]

yeah I do run into a problem that me and diff geo do not mix well

[urban raft]

I mean

there really isn't that much differential geometry when you read a symplectic paper lol

[urban raft]

I think the key word to look up is "motivic"?

[main aspen]

Wouldn’t I need to learn it to get to that point though?
At least at the level of the part iii course?

[urban raft]

yeah

but the part iii course is pretty basic lol

[main aspen]

You underestimate my hatred of DG 🙃

[urban raft]

but I mean it's all stuff that you really should know if doing alg geo or alg top tbh

[main aspen]

And that’s the problem

[urban raft]

(for other people's reference: it's definition of manifolds, vector bundles, connections, basic riemannian geometry)

(occasionally some other topics like lie groups and foliations)

[hot wadi]

ig really it depends on what kind of problems u want to solve

or what problems really interest u

[smoky jetty]

sounds like you already have some idea with the "geometry inspired algebra" (whatever that means to you!)

in the US at least, it is very common that your first 2ish years of a PhD are spent shopping around

meaning you take a lot of courses

do some reading groups

perhaps some self study

go to seminars

this all exposes you to alot of new math

[pearl isle]

2 years is on the longer side I think

[smoky jetty]

yea closer to 1-1.5 years

and in that time span you'll be able to narrow down on an area + talk with potential advisors

for what it's worth, you can do the self study and seminar thing right now as an undergrad (go to seminars!)

I (currently) have a strong idea of what I want to study despite only starting this fall and it was largely informed by self study + going to seminars

[main aspen]

This is kinda why I specified location
I’m in the UK, and am predominantly looking towards Europe for PhDs

[main aspen]

I am self studying a fair amount already (to the level that I have a decent grasp on most of the usual masters courses here in AlgGeo/AlgTop, and then a bit more)
Seminars is a bit more
Scary for lack of another word
Feeling like I shouldn’t be going there

[urban raft]

Junior Geo is pretty chill

the people there are all lovely

the faculty one is a bit more scary lol

but the faculty are all very nice people in my experience

(at least the ones in the areas you are interested in...)

[smoky jetty]

here's some advice I wrote up about why you should go to seminars (for people in my school's math club)

Why you, yes you, should be going to seminars

If you find some specific topic you have learned in a course interesting and want to learn more, then seminars are probably one of the best ways of learning about the recent developments in that field. It turns out that your professors and TAs are more than lecture giving machines, they actually do some really cool work. It may even be an opportunity to get into an independent study or research group!

I get it, starting the habit of going to seminars is hard and scary.

• "What if I don't understand everything?" No one does except maybe the speaker.
• "What if I asked a stupid question?" Chances are someone else you think is smarter than you had that same question.

So how do I get into going to seminars?
I like the [Three Things] exercise from Vakil, a math professor at Stanford. The idea is that you try to identify three things from the talk. They could be definitions, examples, some connection to a thing you already know, a question you have.

• The number three isn't super important, it could be five, it could be one, it probably shouldn't be zero, ten is probably too many
• It forces you to pay a little more attention. It's very easy to have your eyes glaze over in a talk (it happens to me all the time)
• It may be a good branching off point for conversation with others.

Imagine how much you'll learn after doing this at five seminars. That could be 15 new things you didn't know before that you didn't learn in a class. As you go to more and more talks and seminars, these weird words you hear over and over become less weird and less abstract and more concrete.

u should be going to seminars, start going this fall

[fresh kindle]

I guess seminars often felt like an inefficient use of my time

Though I am warming up to them

[smoky jetty]

inefficient how?

[fresh kindle]

Like

If I’m only taking like 5% away from the talk

I’d much rather spend that time, like, trying to understand some lecture notes better

Or even just doing something that’s not maths

[smoky jetty]

I've been to enough talks where I got 0% from it that 5% sounds good lol

also, if it's a seminar with material you're interested in

it's a good way to get new things to look into

[fresh kindle]

Yeah but again like

I guess I thought I could do that myself in a more efficient way

I am warming up to them though

But they did often feel like an unnecessary sacrifice of my time

[main aspen]

It feels like there's both a semi-social aspect to it, and also more of a primer than a lecture course

[fresh kindle]

Yeah the semi-social aspect is part of why I’m warming up to them

Idk what you mean by primer though

[smoky jetty]

the coveted seminar lunch 😩

uh idk some of the seminars at my UG were a mix of expository talks and research

so they were often a good primer / intro to the area

[main aspen]

More like "Hey, here's a brief look at something that may be interesting"

[fresh kindle]

I just tend to get lost extremely quickly in most talks I went to

I’d heard the 3 things advice but I found it very difficult to follow

[smoky jetty]

I learned basically all the graph theory I know solely by going to the graph theory seminar

[fresh kindle]

Don’t think I’m capable of that unfortunately

[smoky jetty]

change the number to something that fits you better

like 1 or 5

depending on whatever works best for you

also from a more meta level

basically all the people I know who are smarter than me go to seminars (both faculty and junior)

so it seems like a good thing to do if I want to be like them

[main aspen]

I've set myself a reminder to look at seminar stuff this weekend
I have a bit of a busy couple days (including a little mini-seminar series that the summer research interns at the dept are running)

[fresh kindle]

Not sure how the cause and effect works there…

[smoky jetty]

well like

I've been told enough that I should be going to seminars by profs

and I've seen that enough people that I think are quite smart go to many seminars

so idk what the cause / effect is

but the data seems to suggest that going to seminars is a good thing

[pearl isle]

I’ve heard some profs say that if you spend all your time trying to get perfect understanding of the prereqs before you jump into research you’ll never do research

I know you do physics so maybe it’s different but with math it’s really true where you need to just start with stuff that’s too advanced

And try to learn backwards

Instead of forwards

At least in terms of research level math

[fresh kindle]

Yeah this is what scares me about research

[pearl isle]

Like you gotta just pick up a paper or a question and just try something

[fresh kindle]

I guess it’s something I’ll have to learn to do

Cause I don’t really have the confidence for that atm

[pearl isle]

It’s very different from textbooks and classes

I did research for the first time this summer and that was a major takeaway

[fresh kindle]

Yeah same

[main aspen]

This scared me, but I've gotten pretty used to this over this summer

[pearl isle]

You skim stuff you skip steps and you don’t go for perfect understanding at the first pass you just try your best to prove something black boxing stuff as you go

[fresh kindle]

I’m pretty worried that I’ll just suck at research

[smoky jetty]

yea that was a huge takeaway from my REU as well

gotta learn both forwards and backwards

[smoky jetty]

what kind of research r u doing this summer

I presume at some company cause you said internship?

[pearl isle]

Eg I started the summer with almost no clue why no essential disks/spheres/tori/annuli in a 3 manifold implied hyperbolic. I just black boxed it and then eventually I got more and more of an idea (these are the surfaces we cut along in prime/tori decompositions of 3 manifolds. So none of them means you’re as simple as you can be which for some reason means hyperbolic)

[fresh kindle]

Oh yeah I’m used to this with internships

[pearl isle]

I still have no clue why mostow prasad rigidity is true

[fresh kindle]

I just don’t think I could do this for math research

Luckily I’m not doing that

[smoky jetty]

yeaaa you could

[fresh kindle]

Don’t think I could

[fresh kindle]

.

[smoky jetty]

have more confidence in yourself

[fresh kindle]

I don’t wanna have misplaced confidence

[pearl isle]

Group research helps with this I think

Like my partner just started trying things

[main aspen]

I'm doing stuff on Tannakian Reconstruction and Recognition stuff (tldr if we have a representation category, how do we get back to the object that it represents, and if we have a category, how can we tell if it's equivalent to a representation category)
It's not at a company, it's at the uni maths dept, they just call us interns still

[pearl isle]

It kinda blew me away at first

[fresh kindle]

Oh you mean irl groups

Not math groups

[pearl isle]

But then I eventually learned from his attitude

And I just started trying things

[fresh kindle]

Yeah my research started out mostly individual

[pearl isle]

And we eventually proved some stuff together

[smoky jetty]

implying groups don't show up IRL

[fresh kindle]

And then eventually like a postdoc got brought in but like

Well

Honestly I did kinda feel like I was getting ignored a little…

[pearl isle]

Yeah I also felt at first that I wasn’t rlly contributing much

But eventually (especially if your problem is big enough) it’s very likely you will solve something

[main aspen]

I've not got that much better at AG, but I've got better at bsing AG stuff
So in a sense I've got better at AG /hj

[pearl isle]

Or like do a step or just be the person to make some progress

[fresh kindle]

Yeah, it would’ve been nice for me to do this during my research experience

All I actually managed to show is that the problem we were considering was in fact impossible to solve

[pearl isle]

For me I would count that as rlly important progress honestly

[fresh kindle]

It ain’t exactly publishable, though

[pearl isle]

Not really important

Are you a grad student then maybe it’s more important

[fresh kindle]

I’m starting my phd in October

[pearl isle]

But for undergrads I’m under the impression that ppl making the decisions don’t actually care about what you publish just the process of research

[main aspen]

How many people actually get something publishable out of undergrad research?
I get the feeling that here it's much more the exception than the rule

[fresh kindle]

I’m not actually sure if that makes me a grad student or not

[fresh kindle]

Idk

I mean some people certainly do

I would assume those people are better equipped to do a phd

[main aspen]

(definitely in pure, although I've heard less so in applied)

[fresh kindle]

Yeah I’m a physicist

[pearl isle]

For me I probably won’t have anything published before I even submit my apps

Bc we have to clean up the manuscripts a lot

So honestly like

It doesn’t matter I don’t think

Or very little

Profs who care abt REUs care that you did them

And maybe who you did them with

[fresh kindle]

My PhD applications luckily turned out fine

For the most part

[pearl isle]

Ah right

Nice

[fresh kindle]

But it’s still true that like

I don’t have concrete evidence that I can do research

[pearl isle]

Well I guess then I would say that a null result or even being the one to provide a counterexample is still proof you can do research

[main aspen]

Even if you don't get a paper out of it, it's still research no?

[pearl isle]

Even if that isn’t publisheabke it’s the same process as finding an actual result

Sometimes counterexamples are harder than proofs

[main aspen]

Not every line of inquiry you try will result in a paper

[fresh kindle]

Huh, I see…

I guess I’ve heard the phrase “publish or perish” a lot with regards to academic stuff

And well I didn’t do the former so

[urban raft]

another way of thinking about this: research progress is continuous, but publishing a paper is a discrete thing (roughly speaking, the floor of your research progress if we consider it as a real number)

[fresh kindle]

That makes sense

[urban raft]

so like someone who did 0.8 units of research (whatever this means) over the summer might get a paper out of it, but like someone who did 0.7 might not. But if you look at number of papers it becomes 1 vs 0

also in my experience having done two summer research projects: progress is kinda proportional to how much guidance you get given tbh

[fresh kindle]

right…

that, uh, explains some things

[dusty trellis]

Damn I am going to have next to nothing in CV, also will be barely connected to SOP..

[pearl isle]

Very true lol

My REU advisors is genuinely one of the best profs/mentors I’ve ever had

And I talked to some friends w less supportive programs and it was very clear the difference it made

[fresh kindle]

That sounds really lovely

[pearl isle]

It was very nice

[raven sun]

You should read a proof of this. It’s surprisingly not terrible

[pearl isle]

I don’t really have the prerequisites

Someone showed me one this summer

I think I just didn’t understand much of anything involved lol

[visual lagoon]

It's probably a good step to build a little confidence! Fake it till you make it, yknow

[hallow portal]

There’s not exactly “introductory texts” for research topics usually

Since like, if it’s understood enough to have extensive exposition on a particular aspect, why are you researching it etc

[fresh kindle]

Hmm I’ve always found this essentially impossible to do is the issue

[fresh kindle]

Like I want to be realistic about my abilities and not pretend to be something I’m not, otherwise it just feels like deluding myself

[visual lagoon]

The issue is trying to be realistic about abilities is almost always an underestimate in my experience haha

[fresh kindle]

Meh, I’ve met plenty of people who seem to overestimate their abilities…

Dunning-kruger is a thing, after all

[dusty trellis]

Time to time, it is overestimate by something like "glory of the past"

[visual lagoon]

Yes, I think if you're specifically trying to be realistic about your abilities though, it's usually an underestimate

Depends on the person though of course

[dusty trellis]

Yeah. I often end up overestimating myself, which I guess is a special case.

[fresh kindle]

Do you mean me specifically or people generally

[tropic karma]

Me too recently

[dusty trellis]

It's kinda sad how one cannot estimate oneself strictly.

[fresh kindle]

Yeah…

It seems difficult to do

[tropic karma]

It's sad to me personally how much my level in stuff is increasing at about the exact same rate weather I want it to increase more or don't care (wonder if it's accurate)

But the easiest solution is not to estimate in most cases

[visual lagoon]

People generally, although probably more common among people specifically in academia because research is such a daunting task to start

[fresh kindle]

Well yeah cause it’s like

You’re supposed to be doing something no one else has done before

Ofc it’s daunting

[proper dirge]

Self-acknowledgement is important

[fresh kindle]

Wdym

[proper dirge]

I think its important to be self aware and accept both your strengths and weaknesses in mathematics, focusing on either one while ignoring the other is bound to create problems. Even if the attempt to be realistic about it seems difficult, one should always try to improve there ability to assess themselves.

[fresh kindle]

How exactly do you do that

[proper dirge]

Track your past performance to see which subjects/topics you consistently struggled with/did well in, ask for feedback and criticism from people who know you (friends, professors, etc), and be aware of confirmation bias and your own biases as a person.

[fresh kindle]

Idk I feel like I already do these

[proper dirge]

Its very easy to overestimate your own abilities if you dont get criticism, and its also easy to underestimate your abilities if you dont practice self-compassion

ultimately this is a difficult thing a lot of people struggle with, you just have to slowly try to improve at understanding yourself.

[dusty trellis]

How do I get criticisms without being bashed

[hot wadi]

just

do

hard

[pearl isle]

Anyone have any recs for math GRE prep

I’m taking it in September and I expect I should probably buy some modern exercise book

Cause I’ve heard all the free ones are from when it was significantly easier

[visual lagoon]

Ask people whom you trust and whom know you relatively well

People who care about you often give good constructive feedback

[spring portal]

Basically try doing problems from calc book (just be quick). Calc covers like 50%+ iirc. For the rest, solve algebra, number theory stuff if you got time, but their weights are too spread, so you would get lesser questions from them.

GRE is flawed, its basically tests how good of a problem solver you are in a time crunch.

[sterile bone]

My best advice is to avoid the mgre. Most schools don't require it anymore, and a lot of the time you can get it waived. The only exception is if you're from a very small/unknown school

[smoky jetty]

ehhhhh idk

I'd say something a little less extreme

you're likely fine without MGRE

[sterile bone]

It's an immense amount of pressure and studying for relatively little payoff

[smoky jetty]

but there are good schools that require it

I mean the "little" payoff depends on the schools you're applying to

[sterile bone]

Like the only way it might improve your chances is if no one on the committee knows your school/letter writers, to put your grades into perspective

[smoky jetty]

2, maybe 3 schools, I really would have loved to go to required MGRE

[sterile bone]

I haven't seen any school be annoying about this except maybe UCLA, since covid it's been slowly abandoned

[smoky jetty]

and I didn't take it so I couldn't apply to those

[sterile bone]

Did you try to get it waived?

[smoky jetty]

no luck

[sterile bone]

Huh

[smoky jetty]

cause no good reason

[sterile bone]

That's unfortunate

[smoky jetty]

but yea those schools were USC, Davis, and iirc Duke wants MGRE

[sterile bone]

I see

There are workarounds, I just think it's not worth it for most people. At the very least, i'd like to put into perspective how few schools actually require it

Unfortunately, some still do

[smoky jetty]

ahh Duke I misremembered

[sterile bone]

So yea i'd say if you really want to apply to those schools you should take it, but it's gonna be hell

[smoky jetty]

Duke CS wants GRE but Duke math is optional

[sterile bone]

Ah

[smoky jetty]

but I was looking for quite some time at applying for TCS programs

hence the mixup in my head

[smoky jetty]

yea so I'd say weigh taking it against how many of those some schools you want to apply to

[pearl isle]

I would like to apply to UCLA for one

And many other schools for another

Avoid the mgre is not useful advice lol

[sterile bone]

Avoid it if you can

The application process is stressful enough as is

[pearl isle]

I’ve already done most other parts of the app

Thanks but I’m looking for people who didn’t avoid it and are willing to give me book recs to study lol

Not looking for “don’t take it lulw”

There are like 6 schools on my list that either require it or say that it is strongly important for them to give you equal consideration or whatever

(UCLA, Harvard, UT Austin, UCSB, UCSD, UC Davis). Harvard and Austin are in the “not required but they explicitly said it will hurt your chances not to take it” category

Others are actual requirements

Oh I missed UCSB

[sterile bone]

The "equal consideration" thing mostly applies to smaller schools (might be your situation). This is especially true for schools where you might not have been able to take many upper level classes like liberal arts colleges.

Also ucsd doesn't require it unless their site is outdated

It's "strongly recommended"

[pearl isle]

Yeah you’re right UCSD is strongly recommended category

I mean I’m not from a small school but I am just gonna take it bc why on purpose do something they’ve said will hurt your apps

And I’ve already signed up

I don’t find standardized tests that hard usually

Maybe I will regret this but I feel like it can only help me

I also think that there are still old professors & old opinions on many grad committees who do actually care if you take it or not

[shadow bobcat]

Yeah I fall into this category for my apps this semester. I've taken plenty of grad courses and some directed studies in advanced topics but the school is small. My advisor is basically on the study seriously for about a month take it, if it goes well submit if not do without

[pulsar isle]

Do problems from the UChicago math GRE practice tests

I took the math GRE last year and now am joining a school that required the math GRE.

The only problems that studying really helped was for linear algebra and calculus type problems where speed really matters

for the rest only basics will come up

i.e. if you know the basics of analysis and algebra you should be able to do those

there were also some problems in combinatorics and number theory I just ended up skipping those (there were only about 4/5 total)

To come to grips with what topics you need to review use the practice exams as a gauge

TLDR: 75% of the exam is calculus, linear algebra and ODE

make sure you know how to do any problem in those

After that group/ring theory analysis and (point set)topology in that order

but only the basics

finally number theory and combinatorics for total of maybe 5 problems

[pearl isle]

Tyty

[steep belfry]

I'm writing statements of purpose for many schools, should I be detailed about what the faculty does? or just hey I just want to join b/c i like your campus. I like the connection of AG and Arithmetic, should I write about how I can work with this professor? Also If I can get advice on schools to add on my chances are really low based on my cv.

[spring portal]

I think it depends on the level you are applying for, applying for masters can give you some leeway (ie, you need not know all the work the faculty does, although, it would be better if you did). But for PhD, it would be expected of you to know what faculty and department of the grad school does, since PhD is about fit.
If it was me, I would not mention anything about campus, many are quite pretty, but it may give a wrong impression that we are coming for the campus to the admissions committee. You should definitely name drop professors whom you deem to be good fit and maybe cite 1 or 2 work done by them, which closely fits your interests (would be even better if you got a paper in that area, though not a necessity).

[pearl isle]

I got advice from a professor that you should mention location in a SOP if youre worried they will yield protect you otherwise don’t

Eg if say you have a job in the area or an SO there then it can be ok to mention that

Especially if you’re overqualified

Bc many grad schools will reject overqualified people bc they think it is very unlikely they go there

But if you have an actual reason you might go then it’s worth mentioning it

But if you’re applying for a school that is pretty competitive then yeah you don’t need to mention it since they’re likely not worried about yield protection

[dusty trellis]

Should one look into the relevant professors when applying?

[spring portal]

Not sure about masters but for PhD yes. Most apps do ask for faculties of interests (typically 3). These should be 3 whose research experience aligns closest with your interests. They must be interested to take you in as their student. In some programs, your whole funding may come only through this professor.
But these things may differ from program to program and from school to school.

For example: if you are interested in PDEs but the school X only has professors working in number theory and maybe topology, then you will not be a good fit.

[hot wadi]

i heard research fit is such an under-rated like

factor

and it kinda makes sense

[hot wadi]

yes

and even email them

what i did (idk if thats good) was email them asking if i can mention their name in their SOP and if they are taking students or not

i attached my sop in the emails

[dusty trellis]

Oh no

Think I should not try application, maybe..

[hot wadi]

why not

[dusty trellis]

I am not sure what I should do, to be honest.

I had some goals, but I think I lost it. I dunno

[spring portal]

Masters or PhD?

I think exploring in masters is okay, but probably not in PhD. You enter PhD with a goal (to research a particular area), it may evolve overtime, but you should have some goal.

[dusty trellis]

Yeah, for PhD

To be more concrete, I wanted to just apply mathematics to several fields.

Realizing that more concrete plans of mine might not be feasible.

Which is a huge issue.

[spring portal]

I would suggest trying for any pre-doc fellowship for a year if possible. You can explore and research, while also narrow down certain areas.

[dusty trellis]

Pre-doc fellowship?

[spring portal]

Staying broad in first 2 years of PhD is okay, most don't stick with their proposed area in SOP, but you would need some vague goal to begin with. Saying you want to do applied math is way too broad imo. You need to concentrate on few areas inside applied math.

[dusty trellis]

Yeah, I was going for pure math in goals of learning it enough first

But I wonder if I could actually make a contribution to pure math.

Like, broadly geometric fields interest me the most, in that I found it to be "application" of symbolic language onto the concept of "space".

[spring portal]

You will not be a student, but a 'student' researcher. This position will also typically be funded. You can take classes and do research. People typically take these fellowships if they dont have enough research experience, or need more time before moving into a PhD, or are not sure exactly in what area they intend to do PhD.

Some unis like princeton offer it

[dusty trellis]

I do think I can redirect myself given time.

But I want to try applying to grad school for next fall (Fall 2025)

[spring portal]

Then go for it, I am honestly projecting an ideal case where a student has everything figured out, most don't.

[dusty trellis]

Ohh

[spring portal]

Do you have any extra things to add to your app? Like any conferences, publications, awards etc?

[dusty trellis]

That's the issue, I don't.

Sharp.. you literally are doing model theory research

[spring portal]

Hmm, tbh, it may be hard to get into a good place. I would recommend spending a year at your current uni and gain research experience, attend some conferences.

You can still apply this cycle, but it may be tough to get into a good school.

As for pre-doc, some unis like princeton offer it. If you get into the fellowship, you also get into their PhD program, so I would also recommend to look into unis offering something like this.

[dusty trellis]

Oh, do I need some publication for good PhD programs?

I guess something unpublished isn't great.

[spring portal]

Will definitely give you a huge boost

[dusty trellis]

Shame I did not try Putnam

[dusty trellis]

Unpublished research is not worthy, right

[spring portal]

No, mention it. Did you do it individually or with some professor?

[dusty trellis]

Yeah, with some professors.

It's not great, I know

[hushed widget]

Wait, is having publications from UG that common?

[dusty trellis]

Just wanted to know if one should have done undergrad research..

[spring portal]

Ask those professors for LORs, kindly ask them if they can mention the research in it.

[dusty trellis]

Yeah I will, but I dunno if it is worthwhile to try application.

Furthermore, I dunno if I would go into the relevant area - maybe I should at this point?

[spring portal]

I think for top students from top programs do have publications. I know someone from MIT who had like 6 💀

[hallow portal]

Without any actual results

[dusty trellis]

Are there many UG logicians with results?

I think that's the important bit here.

[hallow portal]

I don’t think there’s many logicians at all

[dusty trellis]

Yeah, so you have good chances!

[spring portal]

Yeah, program also matters, I should have added that. Having publication in math is probably much harder than something like ml/dl where you can change some layers and call it a day.

[dusty trellis]

When you say good universities, do you mean around global top 50 universities?

Or global top 100

[spring portal]

I say top 50 since that's primarily where I hope to end up

I want to end up in a PhD program where I know I would thrive and can do my best

[dusty trellis]

I see. Guess I would struggle..

[spring portal]

Although top 50 is just a reference, there are quite a few unis under the radar which are still very good

[spring portal]

I think I have said this before, but give your best shot, don't be too harsh on yourself

[hallow portal]

But also basically anyone with any logic interest applies to the same small collection of schools so…

[dusty trellis]

I mean, I am judging whether to put lots of effort and money to try to apply or not.

So it matters to me..

[fresh kindle]

Wait sharp are u applying or smth

[dusty trellis]

Like my best shot is GRE score

[hallow portal]

Yeah?

[fresh kindle]

Damn

I’m so old lol

I’m starting my phd this October

[hallow portal]

Couldn’t be me next year fr

[fresh kindle]

What are you applying for?

[hallow portal]

Math?

[fresh kindle]

Like what level I mean

[hallow portal]

PhD

[fresh kindle]

Oh, huh

[fresh kindle]

Sorry I got stuck trying to interpret what this meant

[hallow portal]

As in, couldn’t be me starting next year

Implying dread about not being accepted

[fresh kindle]

Right…

Yeah I have no idea how logic works

Also dunno how logic PhD admissions go

[hallow portal]

It’s just a math PhD

But in a particular specialty

[fresh kindle]

Right right

I’m doing a physics phd so not as familiar with the math process

[hallow portal]

Not any different from NT except for funding

[fresh kindle]

Rip

[hallow portal]

Though ya know, a bit less ubiquitous in departments, so there’s fewer places good for it

Which makes it way more stressful

[fresh kindle]

I see…

Well, ain’t much you can do to improve your chances now I assume

[hallow portal]

real

Unless I can finish a thing I’ve been working on quickly

[fresh kindle]

Mhm mhm

Good luck!

[spring portal]

How many people from different bachelors do physics phd?

[fresh kindle]

Wdym

[spring portal]

My bachelors is in EE but I am currently more interested in quantum information so I have been looking into PhD programs but in many places the research is being carried out in physics dept. while in some schools its also carried out in EECS department.

My main concern is coursework

I have taken courses in only electrodynamics and quantum mechanics from a physics degree perspective

[steep belfry]

I'm applying to masters pure math no research no reu no gre low GPA I have low expectations from a liberal arts school, I only did some readings, and studying aside from the curriculum, i will mention this as excuse for my low grade (C in topology) everything else B and As but i think its to childish to say this
. My professor recommended me to do masters first before phd. At this point, I can take any program really that would take me obviously. Found out reus existed in the last year, what's done is done. Hope I get accepted somewhere. Any advice is welcome.

[pearl isle]

Tbh just apply to a lot of places and statistically you’ll get in somewhere. Especially for masters which are trying to take your money. Don’t mention an excuse for a low grade unless it’s a good excuse

No offense but with what you’ve said chances are not the best unless you apply to a lot of places

[steep belfry]

none taken thanks!

[crude lava]

One thing to note is that even Ph.D student struggle with research, why would you expect undergrad students to have research experience under their belt before admitting them, especially for the degree that is meant to expose them to research? Don't worry much about the research as having none does not mean you are not qualify to study in graduate studies

[spring portal]

I agree with you but currently too many people apply for PhD (than they could take in), they need to filter out the best, now, they just pick up students with research experience than ones with none, so they won't have to bother training them from scratch.

[dusty trellis]

They do? But mathematics isn't so popular, no?

[spring portal]

Not when seen as a big picture, but I still feel like top schools would prefer some with prior research experience (like even just doing some lit review, directed reading, etc...)

I have spoke with a prof from CMI (top math school in India), He told me that nobody in undergrad or masters do research in math, since it will need a lot of indepth knowledge. Most undergrad research experience is just doing some readings or lit reviews. So you should jump at it if possible. This is in contrast to engineering imo, where you can just jump at research quite early (like me).

[dusty trellis]

Yeah, they will. But I think research experience is not a given, really.

After all, apart from geniuses who can do meaningful research in UG

Btw how meaningless is GRE 330

[spring portal]

Looks solid

dont bother with retaking it or something

GRE is basically a very very small part of app (most even won't look at it), as long as its not a bad score

[dusty trellis]

Yeah, that's rather an issue for me - it is only good part of my application

Maybe I just give up, idk

[spring portal]

I think its more about if they have some experience? and not if they have 3 first author publication in nature? (I am just trying to think from the perspective of admissions committee)

[dusty trellis]

Hmm, I do think good programs help, but isn't experience just experience? Idk if it would change day and night difference, tbh.

Tho I also do not know in-depth about the process.

[south meteor]

Stupid q but how much will getting a 72/B- in groups and rings in my first semester of second year hurt me for grad school apps if I wanna do algebra overall ive done kinda mid my first 3 sems and my overall gpa is a 79/3.41, what do I want to be competitive/how joever is it

[spring portal]

admissions committee might like upwards trajectory (like starting off average but improving your scores every sem) if you can show that

[south meteor]

Ive been doing progressively worse 😭 had a bunch of personal stuff happen the last 2 terms

Maybe if I can raise it from here

[spring portal]

you should try that

gpa is not the only deciding factor, if you got any REU, conference presentations etc, that may help (unless you are trying for European unis)

[south meteor]

? Do european unis not care abt research

Im doing my first USRA this winter in noetherian hopf algebras

[spring portal]

They mainly check grades. I read somewhere they mark your app out of 100, personal statement + grades + LORs, rest doesn't matter much iirc.

[south meteor]

Does it change anything if I had an undiagnosed disability that just got diagnosed this April 🥲

And if I briefly mention that in my SOP along with getting more USRAs and raising my grades

like atp how over is it for me for doing grad school, direct entry phd is basically impossible right

[spring portal]

Honestly not sure about that

You can try asking your letter recommenders imo (about mentioning disability in SOP)

[pearl isle]

But a ridiculous proportion of math students apply for a PhD (like 60% at my university)

Even if the raw numbers of math undergrads isn’t that much the number of PhD apps is still very high

As a result of the fact that it’s the main career option for math undergrads

Research is quite important for say the top 50 programs

At least that’s the impression I get

[dusty trellis]

Hmm, I see.

[hot wadi]

u can apply for funded masters there are alot of funded masters programs in the US

kansas state/oklahoma state

by funding i mean GTA + tuition waiver

in canada by default 99% of masters are funded but this is because u cant do a phd without a masters there

[hot wadi]

a 3.41 is not bad at all imo and i think if u have a bad grade in a like a subject then doing well in the graduate course version of that subject is a good idea

especially that funnily most of the time graduate courses are easier A's than undergrad ones

if u think u did bad on like groups and rings but then did extremely well in like a commutative algebra course or a galois theory one

ig that would suggest improvement 😄 just my take tho im not on th committee haha

[hot wadi]

direct entry phd is impossible for everyone in europe u need a masters

[urban raft]

I guess there's Berlin Mathematical School, which is integrated masters and PhD, and you apply after bachelors

LSGNT might let you in without a masters, but you'd have to be brilliant

[dusty trellis]

This means without good research program, it is difficult to get into (US?) top 50 program, right?

[pearl isle]

Yes that was my claim

But I don’t actually know that much

So grain of salt

[dusty trellis]

I see, I better not try then

[tacit lark]

This is a horrible mindset.

Just not try because a random person on the internet said its competitive.

[dusty trellis]

It's more because it takes effort and money to prepare, so I have to gauge my options.

So how competitors are doing matters to me.

[tacit lark]

Did i say it shouldnt? You’re basing whether you should apply on a single comment saying research is extremely important for top 50 schools. Admissions committees understand that in many countries it isnt the norm to do research during undergrad…

[dusty trellis]

It's not a single comment, and I think they don't have to take students from foreign countries.

[tacit lark]

Seems like it is. Top 50 schools take international students all the time.

[dusty trellis]

Yeah they do, but they only take basically top students, right

Also I am already doing PhD locally, which is another issue.

[tacit lark]

I dont think you necessarily need to be a top student to get into a top 50 phd. There are a lot of factors. My point is just that the importance of research is overstated.

You literally said “i see, i better not try then” in response to someone saying that research is very important. This makes it seem like that is what is discouraging you from applying.

[dusty trellis]

Maybe bigger issue is that my motivations are not super high

I guess rec letters may change matters

But still, the fact that others are doing good research and I am not is a big issue imo.

[spring portal]

If you are already doing a PhD, most universities won't accept applications for another PhD

[dusty trellis]

I'm not sure that's really true (heard counterexamples), but it is an obstacle, sure

[spring portal]

I said "most"
Many universities I have checked do explicitly mention it in their FAQs. But there may be some exceptions.

[pearl isle]

Can I ask, I don’t mean to offend, but how are you doing a PhD without doing research?

[dusty trellis]

Where I live, we choose our advisors quite a while after admission.

That said, I am participating in a research. Just, not particularly charming one, I'd say

[pearl isle]

This is true in the US too in most cases (1-2 years)

[dusty trellis]

Yeah, so that's why.

[pearl isle]

this is a very common thought, but even “bad research” is tremendously different from “no research”

Math has the peculiar property that almost everything you do seems obvious once you’ve done it. Therefore it is extremely common for people to underestimate their own work

[inner cedar]

Yeah, there is also distinction between ”trivial to obtain” and ”trivial to explain”

[toxic plover]

<@&268886789983436800> spam

[ornate gazelle]

Damnit I was about to whack him

[cunning jewel]

me too 😭

had him right clicked

[ornate gazelle]

Tropo is speed fr

[cunning jewel]

frfr

[fast imp]

People who have studied for the GRE math subject test, much were you able to increase your score through studying?

I just discovered that a school I want to apply to requires it and I have little over a month to study. Trying to figure out if it is worth my time. I just took a practice test and scored around median which probably isn't ideal for where I'm applying but idk

[small adder]

anyone have any advice on applying for PhD programs in Stat or OR

I know I have to start gathering recommendations rn

[inner cedar]

OR?

[small adder]

Operations Research

[worn laurel]

Hi!, does anyone have or had a Chevenin scholarship? I want to know all the process to get into a masters degree.

[deep lily]

I'm applying to stat OR depts. too

[tacit lark]

stat or what?

[molten frigate]

OR means operations research presumably

[thick siren]

hi, i have provided my resume above, in hopes of getting some feedback

[tacit lark]

Your awards section is very confusing. Why does it say 1st place, 2nd place, 4th place?

[smoky jetty]

I think most grad schools want to see a CV not a resume

I'm sure a resume is fine but you have the time might as well reformat into a resume

[karmic stratus]

when you don't have any submitted papers what's the difference between a CV and a resume?

I sent a resume with a similar format to @thick siren

[karmic stratus]

Where is the projects section? Do you have a github you can link? Do you have a few notable courses you can put under the Skills section, e.g. the 5 most advanced courses you took?

[hard pebble]

in my experience, a CV is a comprehensive list of everything you've done (so education, jobs, seminars, teaching experience, awards, papers, organizational work, etc.), whereas a resume is specifically trying to "sell yourself" for the job/position. at least that's how people near me have used the words

in turn they have different conventions of what you should put/in what detail that varies by field and subfield (for example, for a programming resume, I would never put education at the top, but for an academic CV that's certainly a good idea)

[crude lava]

It is good work experience. But not good view in the sense of academia in my opinion. I'm from Data Science department and I see this and feel like you only show people that hey I use these tools at these places.

I don't see much of like... you. Like your actual skill that will help you strive in graduate study.

Another minor thing. T-SQL is a programming language yet you don't add programming at the end like you have for R.

But if this is for work, it looks good.

[calm relic]

Man it feels like 90% of the time I find a professor with really cool research interests, they're either retired or full up on students 😭

[limpid zealot]

Is it the norm to email professors of interest before applying?