graduate-applications

[outer reef]

which is (presumably) useful

but that is not something to optimize for imo

[main marlin]

The thing is, Professors who aren't on the admissions committees have very little influence on admissions decisions, so they won't push any applicant to acceptance unless they have a good reason to do so.

related:

[smoky jetty]

oh cool

that helps alot tbh

one day I will have a blog and I will post about this stuff so that future people may be enlightened

[outer reef]

yeah exactly

[tepid forum]

tbf I feel like the "if I pull up a random paper" is quite a high standard lol

like how many actual experts would be able to reliably do that outside of their niche

[outer reef]

the answer depends on what “niche” means.

i don’t see why an expert wouldn’t be able to “parse” basically any paper in the arxiv tag under which they most frequently post.

[main marlin]

Not related and I don't mean to offend, but I feel like lots of advice from non-math people regarding grad admissions does not exactly apply to math. I once was (aggressively) told by bio students to contact PIs beforehand and to state specific research interests or else it'd be the death sentence in my application.

[smoky jetty]

oh yea I've had a ton of people saying "you should already have an informal agreement with a potential advisor. the application should basically be a formality"

but my understanding is that math does not work in that way in the slightest

[pulsar isle]

yeah don’t trust the biologists

math is different

[inner grove]

Math doesn't work this way at all

In fact, I'm published with a faculty member at a University that I wanted to attend and he was willing to take me as his student. Still got rejected

Not to cause panic in here, my undergrad GPA wasn't very good. Still it was mind blowing

[undone yacht]

Some places have direct admit for specific projects, and then it often works like that, the person to get the position is already chosen even if it is an "open" call. Same for many postdoc positions.

then obviously you need to contact or work with them first

[young yoke]

what's "not very good" if you dont mind me asking

trying to.... compare myself...

[void horizon]

https://www.csulb.edu/mathematics-statistics/graduate-programs

moonbears went to csulb for their masters, which has pretty low entry requirements

[inner grove]

I finished my undergrad with a 3.3 GPA. I primarily went to CSULB for my MS because 1) it was local 2) it was free 3) it was a high quality program

[young yoke]

thx

on a side note: neam and i are in a somewhat similar position: looking for mathematical physics programs. I am interested in algebraic geometry & geometry/topology (areas very intertwined w/ physics). Does anyone have any recommendations for programs I should look into (in the US) that have good groups for these fields?

i might shoot an application to notre dame as well because of their TQFT stuff

[inner grove]

I think Berkeley & UT Austin have good programs for that

[tacit lark]

Prob stony brook

[main marlin]

Math doesn't really "direct admit" like that

Yeah point being that was what those bio students "advised" me:

||I originally came into my program thinking I was going to continue work on smooth muscle and now I'm doing tumor immunology. I wasn't sold on another 6 years of SM research but I was able to articulate and recapitulate my interests that way. My program doesn't care because its an umbrella but for direct admit programs which I believe a lot in Math are, you need to be able to convince people why x program and y Pl is THE program for you and the mentor for you.||

[undone yacht]

That is how I hired my current Ph.D. student, so yes it can work like that. But, you are correct for many places but certainly not for all types of places and positions. Here 100% of positions are like this and there is extremely small chance to get a position without contacting advisors in advance (and M.Sc. is a prerequisite and the general subject is predetermined with a specific advisor).

[sonic compass]

before passing out, i will say some schools will require you be admitted and the prof will have to want wyou on. I was in a situation where the former happened pretty easily (school wasn't well known yet but i thought it was a promising safety) but 2 out of the three faculty i was interested in were only adjunct and werent taking phd candidates. thus i was defaulted to my third choice whom for whatever reason didnt like me and thus im stuck back on this racket

which can happen

something to watch out for as always

[worthy apex]

My understanding, though by no means is this always the case, is that this type of application is more common in European-style universities than American-style universities.

Specifically because US universities tend to do PhD straight out of undergrad (which often covers less than european undergrad), so they're far less likely to have a project in mind already and are often expected to "play the field" a bit

Whereas European PhDs start basically in the same place as the 3rd year of a US PhD; i.e. you already have a masters (the rough equivalent of passing quals in America) and should know what you want to do

[undone yacht]

Yes, I am just opposed to people saying stuff like "Math doesn't really "direct admit" like that" which is objectively not true.

[worthy apex]

This is still just a generalization though. Even in the US some profs have enough sway to just get people directly admitted, though here it's more the exception to the rule. I'm less knowledgable about the European system, but I assume there are exceptions there too.

[main marlin]

Oh, I thought we were talking about U.S. Math programs, sorry. My knowledge outside of that is basically little to nil.

[paper granite]

I’ll preface this by saying a few things,
1 - I’m in the UK and ideally looking to do my PhD here
2 - I’m aware how general the question is and it’s hard to say anything too specific

I’m a 3rd year maths student (on 5 year integrated masters course) looking to do a pure maths PhD, don’t know specifically what yet obviously, but I know I’d like to do one.

I was at a PhD applications information evening the other night and there was a lot of good information at it, but the thing that kinda worried me is the professor leading the event mentioned that these days for pure maths PhDs people are really looking for around an 80% average, minimum, in all your classes at undergrad and your masters.

I’m not a million miles off this, I typically get in the low to mid 70s in my pure maths classes, but I really feel like I’ve got no idea how to make up the difference.

I tend to get like 80~90% average on coursework in all my classes but I tend to do worse in exams (guessing adhd and dyslexia has a lot to do with that) and most classes at my uni are an 80/20 exam coursework split (with some I’m taking next year being 95/5 and nothing better than a 60/40) but like I’m just not sure A) how accurate his advice was (I’m guessing quite since he’s been on the admissions team at my uni for years)
B) How to find those extra marks

Apologies if this is the wrong place to ask about this and I know it’s a very hard question to answer but I’m really just looking for any advice I can get.

And I know there’s far more to securing a PhD than just grades, I’m planning to apply for a summer research position this year but it’s insanely competitive and they only offer around 3 positions so it’s not a guarantee, and I’ll obviously just need to hope I write a solid thesis, etc. but all of that feels relatively within my control so I’m not overly worried about it.

[surreal mantle]

Hi hi, for context I'm in my 1st year of a PhD in England (algebra ftw)

• I think the minimum expectation is to get a first, and have good grades in the classes related to the area you want to study in. For context, I had a couple of classes at 50% (I explained them away as issues with mental health though), but averaged around the 70-80% mark.

• Your final year as an MSc student will come across strongest. This was weirdly enough my best year by far, especially in my project and class on representation theory where I got 100% on the exam (and is what my PhD is on).

• To find those extra marks? A bit hard to answer as I don't know what you're currently doing but generally my advice is just: actually attend classes, work through content before each class, don't move on unless you understand, practise solving problems, practise explaining ideas/proofs, do lots of past papers before the exam, etc...

• Extra curricular activity is great for demonstrating/evidencing legitimate interest in maths. A summer research position is a great idea, you could also find work as a TA, or even run a study/reading group.

• Different universities have very different expectations for what applicants need to have in order to be successful. At this point in your career, I highly recommend having a look at potential supervisors at different universities, and dropping them an email (potentially even meeting via Teams/Zoom) expressing your interest in pursuing a PhD along with any questions you might have.

https://www.findaphd.com/ a good place to look at projects being advertised

[paper granite]

Thank you that’s all quite reassuring to hear, I’d always heard a first and a good thesis was the general requirement before that talk, and that is definitely achievable.

Did you do any extracurriculars in your undergrad that you think were particularly helpful?

[surreal mantle]

I was a TA for 2 years, and ran a reading group where I gave talks and encouraged others to do the same (this was after Uni btw).
Also just engaging in online communities such at this one.

I'm a weird case because I graduated, then worked for 2 years, before applying to do a PhD part-time remotely whilst working full-time.

[stoic jewel]

Why does Canadian schools usually say "We encourage applicants to contact faculty members about research interest" and when I do email them they never get back does that mean Im doing something incorrectly

[pure flume]

So I have the first draft of a paper like this 90% done but my advisor does not think we will be able to submit it to arxiv by the time Phd applications are due. He does not think it will make or break my applications if I have this paper submitted or not as he will testify to my projects in detail in his letter. Should I push him on this? Could having a paper to my name released actually make a big diff? I don't have any other papers in the field to speak to.

I'm confident I could finish my parts but he doesnt have the bandwidth for it in the current moment.

[charred thistle]

faculty are always swamped with emails

even if they know you, they might not respond due to the sheer volume they get

[outer reef]

annoying your recommendation letter writer seems like a great idea.

also lol at being “90% done with my part of the first draft”..do you really think it is feasible to have a submission-ready paper in 3 weeks?

[pure flume]

My recommendation writer and friend/mentor

[outer reef]

ok?

[pure flume]

I mean you were implying it would be innapropriate for me to sorta push back against something he said bc he's writing my rec letter but the nature of the relationship is such that he would get where I'm coming from and not take it personal. Even if he still disagreed I dont stand to put myself at risk by making a request like this.

[pure flume]

100%. The numerics are there. The figures are there. The math is all there. The text is written. The real work is done. Its a matter of refining how its written and polishing

[hot wadi]

@inner grove can i dm u king

[outer reef]

why are you asking for advice if you already decided what to do?

[outer reef]

so what does your advisor lack the bandwidth for?

[tacit lark]

I wouldnt push. If its not ready its not ready. It shouldnt make a difference.

[pure flume]

I was more interested in peoples assessments of if it would make a big enough difference to the application to be worth pushing the issue. Thats an altogether diff question from if its appropriate to push the issue, which is what I was addressing in my reply to you. The former can be undecided whilst the latter is decided.

[pure flume]

The work that remains to be done. Even if its doable in 3 weeks that doesnt mean he has bandwidth for the amount of work it would take to finish. Finding all appropriate citations fixing whatever needs to be fixed etc. Giving paper thourough review after I've done what I can. He has other more pressing stuff to get done first.

[outer reef]

like...writing your letter lol

i wasn't calling it inappropriate, just annoying. apparently it wouldn't be annoying to him.

but indeed i doubt it makes a difference.

[pure flume]

aight

thxs

[stoic jewel]

What do you mean even if they know me? I’m pretty sure they don’t know me since I only just applied there

[charred thistle]

the point is ive sent emails to profs i know and they've not responded

due to that reason

[crimson cradle]

ambush them during office hours

[charred thistle]

10/10 would recommend

[cold tiger]

I'm just gonna leave it here, I think it might be useful
https://kconrad.math.uconn.edu/letterwriting/

[stone wagon]

Does non-math research provide any sort of advantage compared to no research for math grad school apps?

[shell kindle]

Depends on the type of non-math research

And what sort of math grad school you want to do

[stone wagon]

Psychology research, pure math lol

[pulsar furnace]

"Pure math" is not very descriptive in that regard. If you wanted to study applications of [blah] to neuroscience or something, that type of research could be quite applicable. If you wanted to study homotopy theory, there wouldn't be much connection. No harm in including it in either case, however.

[smoky jetty]

Good rec letters

[pale rune]

Is it appropriate for me to send a pdf of my general SoP here and ask that people read it over and give me their thoughts, opinions, and any advice on it?

[shell kindle]

You can, no guarantee that anyone will read it though

Also doxxing concerns, etc...

[pale rune]

Oh I made sure my name wasn't on it, and that all professor's names I lined out. I'm sure there are other ways to doxx, but I'm not knowledgable enough to prepare for them lol

But in that case, here's my first draft. Any advice would be greatly appreciated from anyone!

[outer reef]

so much fluff imo

[vestal swan]

There’s a lot of telling and not much showing

You say you’re passionate but don’t really provide examples

[pale rune]

How could I go about removing fluff or showing instead of telling? I'm not exactly sure what is expected in that regard

(Thank you for the feedback)

[pulsar furnace]

A lot of fluff imo too

[outer reef]

delete the first paragrpah

[pulsar furnace]

"What sets me apart as a candidate is my unwavering passion for mathematics, an ever-growing curiosity that drives me to delve deeply into complex concepts"
Like this. It really does not set you apart; everyone applying to grad school in math should have a passion for it.

[outer reef]

the second paragraph is quite odd

[pale rune]

Ahhh, okay, I think I'm starting to get the point. I should give more explicit reasons or example that back up the claims I am making, instead of just making the claims?

[outer reef]

you just mention some random courses

that apparently have nothing to do with your stated research interests

also "alongside graduate students" is like...

does that mean they were graduate courses?

``I have not engaged in professional experiences directly related to mathematics" immediately after you said you did research with a prof

is quite odd

[pulsar furnace]

Here's an example. You say in the middle that you are interested in homotopy theory and k theory. Tell us more about that: what steps have you taken to learn these? You mention difficulty from course availability (I assume you mean that these courses ar enot offered at your uni). What have you done outside of your classes to learn more about your supposed interests? Since the rest of what you state does not address that

[pale rune]

I had one graduate course (complex analysis), and a few that were joint with undergraduate and first-year graduate students. I wanted to mention the courses to emphasize that I had taken some higher-level courses and had some idea of what's going on

[outer reef]

moreover, what have you done in your courses to learn about these?

well won't they see your transcript?

[vestal swan]

When I was writing my SOP, I did mention courses but only when they accentuated and complemented my points

[outer reef]

the last paragraph is completely superfluous

[outer reef]

yes of course

this is utterly essential

[pulsar furnace]

I don't think it's bad to mention a grad course if it's relevent; I mention my homotopical algebra course in mine since it is my interest

[outer reef]

but not just random courses

[vestal swan]

oh it was more of a statement for J.Ross

[outer reef]

oh misread

[pale rune]

This is really helpful in guiding me to the right track, thank you

[vestal swan]

But yeah, mention relevant courses only when it adds something to your SOP

[outer reef]

i think at the bare minimum you need to justify the interests you're indicating

even like...explaining how you came to be interested in them

even if you havent taken a course or attended a seminar or whatever

also...these are extremely niche topics

[vestal swan]

I plan to do algorithms and theoretical cs in my postgrad studies so I mentioned courses like Theory of Comp and some of the advanced algorithms courses to suggest that my courses aligned with my goals

[pale rune]

So remove anything that is generally considered fluff, like the first paragraph, and focus my emphasis on courses/experiences that directly support my SoP and my reasonings for claims I make or research interests?

[outer reef]

it would be bad to say e.g. "i want to do langlands program" with no justification, but name-dropping something as niche as K-theory makes you sound like you learned about it by clicking Random Article on wikipedia

[pale rune]

This is also helpful, thank you. I've been unsure of how specific to get with my interests

[outer reef]

why are you interested in them?

[pulsar furnace]

homotopy theory and k theory??

[outer reef]

and scv, yes

[pulsar furnace]

I wouldn't call those particularly niche nowadays

[outer reef]

ok. i would.

homotopy theory is the most active obviously

[pale rune]

Scv was introduced to me by my research advisor and I just found it really interesting how many theorems in CA don't generalize to higher dimensions, as an example of justification for an interest

[outer reef]

no no

you do not explain the actual math

you need to explain concretely

how the effort you expended in your studies

led you to these interests

[pulsar furnace]

but this is an important question to reflect on

[outer reef]

like "taking course A/working on research problem B/attending seminar C/discussing topic with prof D/... led me to be interested in X"

[pale rune]

Ahhhh okay I see, that's very helpful!

[outer reef]

"riemann mapping theorem is false in C^2" is meaningless

anyone would find that interesting

even if they dont work in scv

a passing interest in math is not enough to succeed in a phd, much less a research career, and any admissions committee will act accordingly. you need to demonstrate evidence of hard, thoughtful, productive work

[outer reef]

and what of this? you say scv is your plan B.

also (This paragraph will be used to tailor my SoP to each individual university I am applying to, including professors I would be interested working under, courses I would be interested in taking, and other aspects of their program that speaks to me and my goals directly)

you should be very careful about this

the prof part is fine

but i doubt most programs have anything remarkable beyond their faculty that's worth mentioning in the application.

obvioulsy for e.g. people doing applied math, the existence of strong departments in other areas can be something to say on a school-by-school basis

[pulsar furnace]

With this, remember that the people reading this essay will be experts in their respective fields; generally in math. Which is unlike UG admissions, where you were writing for a broad audience.

[outer reef]

etc. etc.

[outer reef]

in fact the people reading it will often be the experts you list in this placeholder paragraph

[pulsar furnace]

[outer reef]

in terms of actual suggestions

i find it quite odd that you don't mention your research experience beyond a sentence

even if it ended early

actually why are you even mentioning that it ended early

[pulsar furnace]

Definitely worth expanding on your research!

[outer reef]

(i can imagine some good reasons why you might, but i don't want to assume)

also a personal taste thing: most mathematicians do not capitalize every word in the name of a field of math

i personally find this a bit grating to read, it comes off as somewhat outdated and overly formal.

you should just capitalize the proper nouns, e.g. "Loewner" or "K"

[pale rune]

All of this has been exceptionally guiding advice on the major (and not-so-major) do's and do not's, which I really appreciate! I'm gonna go fix some things up, thank you all!

[outer reef]

lol

[pale rune]

?

[outer reef]

i assumed your parenthetical was directed at my complaint about your capitalization convention

[pale rune]

Oh perhaps lol, but I'll certainly take it into account. It's a force of habit at this point, but can be annoying to properly capitalize everything, so I may make the adjustment for the sake of everyone involved

[outer reef]

it makes you sound like youre from 1890

when everyone in math was german

[pale rune]

Ahhhhh I could definitely see that

[outer reef]

because people did write this way a long time ago

(because they were all german)

but yes it is by far the least of your concerns lol

[main marlin]

Not exactly, unless the writer was mathematician or knew about grad school in math.

[smoky jetty]

I mean it's still research, better than nothing

[main marlin]

It's advisable to have 3 letters from mathematicians, and if a non-math writer can assess any extremely good aspects of yours that others don't, make it 4

[smoky jetty]

You did a project under someone, maybe even published something, you worked under this prof for an extended period of time

Ok but between prof I did research with, maybe not exactly math research, and math prof I took a couple courses with

The former surely is a better letter right?

[main marlin]

The most important thing is what writers can say about you in a graduate-level math context, not vice versa. Rec letters from non-math fields don't always necessarily help because of the dynamic and cultural differences in academics and research. For example, many lab-based science undergrads are actively engaged in lab work and produce actual results, so there may be an emphasis on the research experience, regardless of its relevance, when it comes to evaluation in fields with labs. (Pure) Math typically isn't lab-based and students do not contribute to true research until a few years into grad school, after finishing breadth reqs and passing all quals because the barrier of entry is higher.

[cold tiger]

it depends on which PhD you're applying to. Suppose it's not pure, pure math, but something close and application-oriented (say, CS), then it might be beneficial to show that you master Math well and can apply it to stuff outside Math. Especially when in your research, you used a lot of math, and your supervisor knew about this.

It happened to me, for example

But if what you want to do is 99%-graded pure math, then it's different

[cold tiger]

and align your text pls 😄 it makes the text look more professional

[fleet ore]

Hi all, is exceeding the required amount of recommendation letters valuably / meaningfully beneficial to the application to PHD programs? I now have secured enough, but I may get another if put in some work. The answer to this question can help me allocate my energy in the near future. Thanks in advance!

[tacit lark]

No

Most programs (in the us) only allow 3 maybe 4

[main marlin]

Many programs allow more than 3 letters of recommendation. However, according to some schools, it doesn't guarantee that more than 3 letters will be reviewed because each applicant must be treated equally.

[fleet ore]

Okay, thank you all for the responses!

[last zodiac]

would it look bad if i dont put down my undergraduate personal tutor as one of my referees?

basically he's told me he has a standard reference he writes for everyone, which boils down to "[student] got [grade] and hasn't caused any trouble"

more importantly, would it make things awkward between me and the tutor for the rest of this year?

[olive crater]

I don't see any reason why it should, because referees don't usually stand to gain anything from writing recommendation letters.

And if he only has a 'standard reference', then it would be even more understandable to him if you choose to get letters from other people

[half meadow]

that sounds like a not-particularly-subtle way to telll you, "please don't ask me for a rec letter unless I'm your only option".

[last zodiac]

ah that's a good point i didnt think about that

[sterile bone]

That would be a very bad rec letter to get

[smoky jetty]

Is there a point emailing profs

I have gotten conflicting advice and idk what to believe

Like what is there to gain if most people don't look for advisors their first 1-2 emails anyways

[smoky jetty]

I mean I'd have to reach out like

now

[outer reef]

no

what is the point

[main marlin]

A remark on contacting potential advisors: Don't forget that at many US institutions (I don't know much about the the system in other countries), an advisor does not singlehandedly determine admission to a graduate program. I get lots of emails from people asking if I can take them as students and all I can tell them is that they are welcome to apply to our program. Please make sure that, before emailing people with whom you'd like to do a thesis, you go to their institution's website and familiarize yourself with the institution's admissions process as well as the graduate school process (e.g. is it a 5 year combined MS+PhD? are you expected to already have a Master's degree? is funding provided directly through advisors or does the institution hire teaching assistants?). And PLEASE do not just send generic emails to everyone on this list. Not only does it unnecessarily clog up the email inboxes of busy professors, it can potentially annoy them and make it harder for you to work with them (and remember, we do talk to each other, so we often know when we all get some whacky form letter from the same person). -JB

From Jonathan Beardsley - a Topology professor at the University of Nevada Reno.
Side point: If you have a highly niche interest and, at the department you're applying to, only one professor is working in that area, then it'd be helpful to email and ask if that professor would continue taking students in the upcoming years. For your own sake more than anything.
However, if you still have doubts, maybe consider asking your letter writers or Math grad students whom you know personally to see what they think of contacting potential advisors before applying.

[tacit lark]

not really, but i think it can be useful to know if a prof plans on taking students. Especially if there are only a few profs your interested in working with.

[smoky jetty]

Hm ok I’ll maybe look at some of the smaller departments

And reach out if it seems like they have many students

[main marlin]

Side question: How advisable is naming the faculty with whom one is interested in working on SOP given that there's no expectation that they will commit to working with that advisor?

[shell kindle]

It's fine

[outer reef]

it is very important to do this i think

[tacit lark]

i did this for every single application I submitted.

maybe it's not necessary idk. I had some idea of what I wanted to work on (extremal/additive combinatorics, graph theory, computational complexity). I applied to schools that had faculty in these areas. At the end of my SOP I had a short explanation about why I am a good fit for the school and why I chose to apply to this school. It was pretty generic and boiled down to the fact that they had active research groups in these areas.

[cold tiger]

it shows that you did your homework, that you expected to come to work/study seriously, that the place fitted you, and that you didn't apply purely for the prestige

I did that in almost every application

[outer reef]

said differently, how else are you supposed to answer the question "why do you want to attend our phd program in particular?"

[vague saffron]

Does anyone know a school with an active researchers in algebraic combinatorics that's not UMich, UMN, UIUC, or UNC

Or combinatorial group theory

[granite marsh]

Uwaterloo

I also believe CMU has one irc

https://www.cmu.edu/math/research/index.html

[smoky jetty]

does idk anyone in either of those areas at CMU

[shell kindle]

What does this sentence mean

[proper dirge]

does it? idk... (is probably what was meant)

[smoky jetty]

sorry am half doing office hours and half looking at this chat and half looking at UNC to see if I should apply

so all 3 halves of my brain are occupied

[smoky jetty]

if you find more plz lemme know (especially on the computational group theory side)

Derek Holt at Warwick ofc is the god of comp group theory, idk if he's doing stuff

UWashington has a strong alg combo group as far as I can tell

University of Colorado I think

UC Davis is also huge

[proper dirge]

Anyone know how competitive the following masters programs are : Münster , Saarlandes , Postdam and Gottingen

[cold tiger]

for what? math?

[proper dirge]

yeah

[tacit lark]

ucsd

https://math.ucsd.edu/research/combinatorics

they have an excellent combinatorics group it's a really great school

i mostly know ucsd for non algebraic combinatorics people like verstraete, suk, manners, warnke, kane but they seem to have a few people in algebraic combinatorics like: novak, rhodes, steven sam

[wheat pelican]

does anyone experience with applying for theoretical CS phd programs as a math/cs major but focused on math?

[tacit lark]

i do

[wheat pelican]

Is it generally fine? I don’t have any CS research experience, but does math research supplement that sufficiently I imagine?

[cold tiger]

yes, it's fine, dw

[vestal swan]

Yeah I’m going through this rn

[tacit lark]

Ya should be fine. You should be able to explain why you’re interested in tcs though. I spoke about how my math research led to me getting interested in tcs. I did research in combinatorics/graph theory so i was exposed to some cs related things by exploring those fields

[shadow bobcat]

TAMU has some people

[pulsar isle]

wondering if i should submit my gre math subject test score to schools it’s optional for

i got an 820 i.e 80th percentile. Is that good?

[balmy tiger]

Hopefully someone answers this, but do you have any tips for the test? How did you study?

[pulsar isle]

I went through the UChicago stuff and reviewed multivariable calc and linear algebra from standard textbooks

If there’s one thing i recommend it’s just work through the uchichago stuff

its fine to look up solutions online since you are preparing for an exam after all so don’t waste time trying to solve everything on your own

[balmy tiger]

Thanks

[shadow bobcat]

Haven't taken it yet but my advisor just gave me a book to go through it's called cracking the gre subject test math (or something like that) you could probably find a copy and work through that as well

[old burrow]

so i'm looking into an application in Belgium and how exactly does the salary work?

Like, I have a basis of a non-indexed annual scale, something about annual and biennial amounts, and an index, and either my google-fu sucks or there really isn't an explicit formula linking all of these numbers written down

[torpid echo]

[shy thunder]

I'm applying to masters programs rn. On my CV I got all my research and work xp and publications/presentations and what not. I got 2 questions though.

1. Should I list coursework on my CV? I'm applying to math and physics programs

2. is it okay if my CV is 5 pages? The 5th page is just references, so really my CV is 4 pages I guess. Is this okay/normal?

[pulsar furnace]

Honest question: What are you putting on your CV to make it 5 pages as an undergrad?

[shy thunder]

all my (physics and cs) research that I've done for the past 2 years, projects, a publication, work xp (so internships with nasa, lockheed martin, etc), coursework, majors and minors, presentations (at symposium, research conferences, poster sessions, talks, etc.), honors/grants/awards, and techincal skills (lab skills, programming, and software)

is it bad? should I just submit a resume?

Am i not suppose to list that stuff😅

[shell kindle]

Do you have descriptions written for each item?

[shy thunder]

yea

[shell kindle]

You don't need to list technical skills

You don't need written descriptions

[shy thunder]

for research and work xp?

[pulsar furnace]

Generally that sounds fine/like relevant information, I just would worry that it might be bloated. Like you don't need technical skills and probably not many descriptions like ange suggested (for research it's probably fine)

(not to diminish your work, ofc, that just sounds quite long relative to most UG's CVs)

[shy thunder]

i have about 3-4 bullet pts for each description and I can see why tech skill prob aren't needed

what about coursework though?

I'm thinking of having it displayed at least for physics because my major is applied and computational math and one of my minors is physics. Would it be worthwhile for physics grad programs?

[shell kindle]

Don't put bullet points, you can jut have things in normal text

[shy thunder]

Aight bet

[smoky jetty]

I have coursework

Just to make my second page not super bare

And all I've listed is high level course work

I can send you my CV if you want

[wheat pelican]

I'm going to have a somewhat low GPA (3.5) while applying for grad schools, but I have good research. Will it still be worth it to apply to good schools?

[cold tiger]

I removed coursework from my CV, simply because I also sent my transcript.

[shy thunder]

Yea I just did the same thing. It’s redundant

Cuz you’re required to send official transcripts anyways lol

[cold tiger]

my rule of thumb is: never list anything twice

[shy thunder]

Facts

[cold tiger]

Content of SOP should differ from that of resume, which in turns differs from that of reclets, from transcript, etc

[shy thunder]

I’m just going through king sure nothing is twice

[cold tiger]

for an UG, 4 page is long. But then again, not everyone has publications or internships at NASA or presenting things at conferences

[cold tiger]

put everything you have, you never know 🤷

[shy thunder]

True true

[cold tiger]

there's no way to tell, even if we have all your info. My advice is to go for it. You better know for sure that you got rejected, than spend the rest of your life wondering what could have happened.

[tacit lark]

wdym by good research? What kind of advanced math/tcs courses have you taken? Did you get a lot of non As in your math/tcs coursework?

It also depends on what you mean by good schools. Different people have different opinions of good.

[shy thunder]

Out of curiosity wdym by tcs? Teaching course? Or is it something else?

[tacit lark]

theoretical computer science

[shy thunder]

Ah okay

[tacit lark]

xpoes expressed interest in theoretical computer science earlier in the channel

[wheat pelican]

Yea

[shy thunder]

Oh nice

[wheat pelican]

I’ll respond in a bit, thanks

In class rn

[main marlin]

short answer: yes

[unborn coral]

3.5 aint that bad

[next fern]

guys maths grad school possible with material engineering background ?

like whats the amount of universities that even take students of that background for maths grad school ?

[granite marsh]

It would strongly depend on how much math you learned along the way

You could also look into doing a masters somewhere to try to bridge the knowledge gap (if there is one(

But if you’re able to demonstrate a command of the basics (for analysis and abstract algebra) whether by a letter of recommendation or classes you’ve taken you should have a shot

Though again maybe look into a masters (you can get them funded at some places/countries)

[shell kindle]

Also depends on what sort of math you want to do

[worthy apex]

Masters, or even just a post-bacc like at UVA or Iowa State, to bridge the gap.

[main marlin]

What math classes have you taken? Assuming US-based and Pure Math, many schools typically expect applicants to have taken (proof-focused) Linear Algebra and Basic Real Analysis (if not along with Abstract Algebra and/or Complex Analysis) at the minimum. If you have taken some upper-level classes that were heavy on proofs, that might help.

[tacit lark]

what kind of math do you want to work on? You may be better off doing some sort of engineering grad or maybe some applied math programs.

[next fern]

I want to work on algorithms and then take it to np completeness

Ive been told its more maths than cs

[next fern]

Ive taken calculus 1 and 2 and differential equations and numerical analysis

[main marlin]

Well, you don't have Abstract Linear Algebra and Basic Analysis on your transcript, apparently. since you say "maths," I assume you're outside of the US?

[tacit lark]

most of this work is done in cs departments.

it is basically math, but in the US most of these profs are in CS departments or maybe have affiliated with both math and cs.

[smoky jetty]

That stuff is the more mathy part of CS

Jek is right, those people will be in the CS department

[next fern]

Yes im outside of US but wanna get in 😅😅

[next fern]

Also i graduated material science

[half meadow]

Also beware that algorithmics and computational complexity are distinct research fields, with their own traditions and quite different problems they care about. So planning to "upgrade" (or whatever) from "algorithms" to "NP completeness" doesn't seem advisble.

[next fern]

Yes im aware. I need advice on that as well

I started computational complexity with sipsers book and it was really helpful

But the main problems is with proofs

I need to have gain good knowledge of proofs

And im kinda lost rn

Dont know where to start

[tacit lark]

@next fern maybe consider a masters in computer science somewhere and try to take classes in algorithms, complexity, etc. you seem to have a long way to go since you have little math and algorithms/complexity background. Math and proofs is the foundation of algorithms and complexity theory.

[next fern]

Please recommend some books for starting with proofs

[tacit lark]

im not sure just look something up. there are probably some recommendations in the book recommendations channel. I didn't really follow a book when learning proofs. I just took a class and learned from the prof.

[next fern]

Ah ok, thanks a ton m8 🙏

Will see

[next fern]

What would be a realistic timeline towards this goal of producing papers in the field of computational complexity ?

[undone yacht]

you should reconsider that attitude. whenever i hear a student bring something like that up I most likely will not work with them.

[next fern]

Oh, what would be a better approach then ?

[undone yacht]

interest in the field. if you produce good work papers will come. it can take a month or many years

[tacit lark]

probably years

[next fern]

I think the interest in the field is checked out i was just asking as to set some expectations of my self so that i dont burn out

[undone yacht]

nobody here will know, depends on work, luck, circumstances, collaborators, other factors

[next fern]

That’s fair

[undone yacht]

but most probably years as stated above

[tacit lark]

producing original research is difficult, especially in theoretical areas. You're starting with a very modest background. You should have a very good foundation of proofs, discrete math, algorithms, complexity and the undergraduate level at the very least before you're able to start reading modern papers and building their work.

that background is kind of the minimum as well. most complexity theorists ik (including myself) have much more.

you need to build the math maturity and toolkit to solve problems

[next fern]

can you please elaborate on the much more part ?

[tacit lark]

you're best bet is probably trying to enroll in a masters program somewhere and getting a formal education in these topics there and finding someene who can advise you.

[tacit lark]

most people in complexity also have a background at least equivalent to an undergrad degree in math if not more.

so linear algebra, abstract algebra, analysis, topology etc.

this is not required to start working on problems, but it helps to have

[next fern]

Ok so
Proofs
Discrete maths
Algorithms
Complexity
And undergrad maths courses

This is easily looking like a 5 year minimum journey to just get really good at the basics

[tacit lark]

you're best bet is to focus on the basics and try to enroll in a masters program like ive i said a few times. You can learn a lot of stuff as you go.

[next fern]

Yes im enrolled in a masters program in cs rn

Learnt the linear algebra part

[tacit lark]

ok so they should have algorithms and complexity courses for you to take

[next fern]

And algorithms

[cold tiger]

An uni can squeeze that into 2

Though to what depth is another question

[undone yacht]

Also be open to changing interest/subject along the way if opportunities arise (I switched PhD topic when I was pretty much done)

[tacit lark]

i know a complexity theorist that majored in chemistry and learned a lot on his own so it's possible

[tacit lark]

ya most people change so its bes to keep an open mind.

[next fern]

Yes this is a big problem in my country as many masters students flat out dont wanna learn and just come for masters because they are free

[tacit lark]

what country

[next fern]

Pakistan

rip

So you have students in class who just wanna pass out instead of going into the details lobbying the teachers

For an easier syllabus

Its heartbreaking for me to see

[vestal swan]

How much topology would you likely need to do complexity theory? One of my interests is complexity theory so I’m looking to potentially go into that field

[tacit lark]

Complexity theory is massive so it depends on what in complexity you want to work on. In general, I don’t think you need a lot. I’m just saying that the average complexity theorist has a decent math background and a lot of math maturity.

[floral grove]

hello

is the stipend that a phd student gets enough to get by?

[vestal swan]

Ah yup, makes sense - thanks!

[floral grove]

is there subsidized housing and utilities provided by the uni?

[tacit lark]

There may be graduate dorms that are cheaper than getting an apartment. Some universities in big cities may have subsidized housing, but Im not sure.

[tacit lark]

Id say its probably enough to get by, but maybe not much more than that. It really depends on the university and the location. Its something to consider when applying to programs and deciding where to go.

[floral grove]

i see

[shell kindle]

Depends a lot on your expected standard of living

[elder yacht]

In my own undergrad introduction to it I’ve seen connections to algebra, but more importantly the entire field of mathematical logic (basically what the “foundations” channel on this server looks at)

Algos, graph theory, etc (more cs proper) is probs also important

Also broad question but if someone got a phd in complexity theory and wanted to pivot to industry, does anyone know what their career prospects look like exactly?

[shell kindle]

Do you want to continue doing complexity theory in industry?

Because if you pivot you can do stuff completely different from your phd

[elder yacht]

Didn’t mean pivot in the sense of changing fields just in no longer wanting to do academia, I think goal in this case would b yes to continue doing it (tho I assume that’s rare if done at all) or smth that at least correlates to a lot related to the field

[tacit lark]

Good luck with that

Not a lot of complexity in industry

[tacit lark]

If your undergrad introduction followed a book like sipser, then its very far removed from modern complexity theory in the US.

But overall, Id say topology isnt very important for most of complexity theory. That wasn’t my point.

[tacit lark]

Standard engineering and finance jobs that are irrelevant to what you did your phd in. Potentially, industry research in cs but unlikely to be very complexity related.

[elder yacht]

we're following theory of computation by dexter kozen

not sure how close that is

[tacit lark]

If you want to see what kind of research is being done look at big tech companies like google, microsoft, ibm etc. there is research done at smaller places, but these big tech companies tend to have more resources to dedicate towards these stuff. There isnt a lot of theory in industry. From what ive heard a lot of it has been cut. A lot of the theory tends to be related to quantum computing, error correcting codes, algorithms, optimization, differential privacy, econ-cs (mechanism design, auctions, …), cryptography.

[elder yacht]

gotcha

[elder yacht]

technically it's an intro to theory of computation as a whole, second half has been all complexity and (understandably) just the basics, diagonalization, a lotta padding arguments, intro to polynomial time hiearchy (arithmetic hiearchy b4 that), proving famous set inclusions etc

the only other complexity course we have is the actual grad one

[vestal swan]

we don't have a grad complexity theory course 😭

[elder yacht]

ours is apparently horribly taught ☠️

dept is overall more engineering/less theory focused (except algos they excel at that)

[vestal swan]

I've been learning some parity classes on my own because there seems to be ties with my thesis interestingly enough

[tacit lark]

Good stuff, but not much modern things. I took a look at the book and it seems decent. If you’ve seen things like PCP theorem and circuit lower bound etc then those are huge topics being studied today.

[elder yacht]

yah we did that last week actually lol

i think our next lecture is on interactive proofs

no clue what those r

[tacit lark]

Modern complexity theory by arora barak has a lot of good things too.

Ya people still study interactive proofs.

[vestal swan]

I find it very fascinating

it's a pretty natural extension to the NP class

[elder yacht]

yah we're doin a lotta NP stuff rn

in fact this is what our hw from this week looks like

[tacit lark]

Seems like a pretty good course tbh. I dont think a lot of undergrad complexity courses in the US teach these sort of things.

[elder yacht]

referring to the grad one not the one im in which is aimed at undergrads

which even that is more of a circumstantial case im sure the curriculum is fine for it it's moreso the professor who always runs it etc

[vestal swan]

I think our theory of computation course ended off the complexity theory half with an introduction to probabilistic classes which isn't really a whole lot

I didn't have a lot of intuition for the probabilistic classes until I came across randomised algorithms

[elder yacht]

im very happy with my current course lol

altho i do wanna learn more fs

cuz ideally would b applying for grad next fall and this is what i wanna go into

[void horizon]

i saw microsoft research is doing work with lean (a proof assistant). any industry jobs related to working with these tools?

[elder yacht]

oh wait yah im assuming algorithmic verification of systems might b a little related?

[void horizon]

i was more thinking of formalizing theorems in proof assistants

[elder yacht]

no i know meant that as a separate point

just also asking

[grand palm]

Why are some schools asking me about other schools I am applying to?

[shell kindle]

It is kind of odd

[grand palm]

I mean it is not required to answer; should I just skip it ?

[granite marsh]

They just want information on what places people that apply there are applying to also and it maybe gives them an idea of what n is for the program being your nth choice

[slender dune]

There’s a grad level topology class at my college next semester that I’m deciding to take, but the professor is notoriously hard, and I’d likely get a B in the class. In terms of grad school apps would it be better to take it and get the B, or not take it?

[pulsar furnace]

Topology is important if you are applying to grad programs.

[cold tiger]

Unfortunately topology is a core course if you want to get in a Math program

[granite marsh]

What kind of topology? If it’s point set that’s critical. If it’s algebraic topology then maybe you don’t need it unless you plan on going down an algebraic route

[hushed lion]

I think it will be a useful experience since you consider applying to a grad school, despite what your grade will be.

[grand palm]

If you haven't seen AlgTop before, then it is highly recommended no matter what are your interests in math. AlgTop is pretty much everywhere and gives many cool insights.

[slender dune]

Thanks for the responses, I think I will take it

[tacit lark]

if you have undergrad topology under your belt id consider taking a different course.

[silent egret]

just dont get a B

[dry umbra]

hello johan

[young yoke]

LOL

does anyone have grad school recs for good mathematical physics programs?

[tacit lark]

Stony brook, Berkeley

[pure flume]

https://file.io/pbaNvCZNzp7J

[smoky jetty]

file has been deleted and anyways before you share, make sure you remove identifying info if you care

[pure flume]

Huh

[pure flume]

I removed my name

[worthy apex]

I'd look into programs that have strong applied math programs, and collaborations with other departments (especially physics). For example, something like the UIowa Applied Math and Computational Science program (where you do math but your advisor need not be a mathematician) might interest you.

[young yoke]

thanks :D

[outer reef]

columbia, upenn

maybe northwestern, princeton

it depends on your interests though, “mathematical physics” is not a cohesive field

[fast kraken]

Is there a process tracking / job hunting channel? For folks trying to go into industry?

[vague saffron]

how important is research experience and/or the letters coming from them? does it compensate for the lack of graduate classes (small liberal arts school)

[outer reef]

not important/very important

it does not compensate i think

but good letters are good

[tardy kayak]

In math it's a coin flip

As said, good letters always good

Math research as an ug is usually... rudimentary in the eyes of the professors. But it can never hurt either

[fickle hawk]

In my SoP, how specific should I be with the topics I have studied? If I just say "I have self-studied topic x", then it's all so vague. Instead if I say "I have read for instance <a classic text on topic x>", then I'm afraid my statement becomes a boring list of books.

This is of course a very broad question but can someone give tips?

[subtle knoll]

what's your motivating for reading that list of classical textbooks? you can explain that, especially if there's a continuing theme behind your projects.

[fickle hawk]

This is a great tip, thank you, but I'm wondering if there's some kind of a standard for how specific one should be in a SoP

This is kind of a dumb question but yeah

Maybe this is what I want to ask: Is it fine to list a ton of books as long as the text remains cohesive?

[shell kindle]

You should not list too many

[grand palm]

How much is too much math terms in an SOP. a post-doc told me to not be vague and show that you can talk the talk. Not sure If I added too much math tho

[tacit lark]

I didnt really put a lot of math

I dont think its necessary.

[molten frigate]

I think it should read like a talk abstract, not like a grant proposal nor a research paper

idt you need to be too precise but roughly outline what kind of math you've done and expect to do

[dry basin]

How much of a potential masters thesis project am I meant to have outlined when I enrol

[shell kindle]

Depends

US, Europe, Canada?

Have you communicated with an advisor?

[lusty mica]

hello every one

[dry basin]

Upside down canada (NZ)

[dry basin]

If you mean research supervisor, I've got a tenative one who's got a grant lined up in a specific area and that's pretty much it

[stoic jewel]

Is anyone willing to read my statement of interest and provide some feedback? I honestly don't know how it looks, it is 900 words now and I don't know if it's the proper length. If anyone wants to read it please DM me

[clear kelp]

Like if I self studied all topics of UG level maths, how can I insert it in my application? I have degree in BA economics and want to apply for MSc. Economics, and to ensure my application is accepted I want to add that I have a good knowledge of Mathematics.

How can I do that? Will writing an expository paper on some topic (say Riemann, Stieltjes and Lebesgue integral) help?

[tacit lark]

arent these courses on your transcripts? Also, you can talk about this in your statement of purpose.

[clear kelp]

No, I learned mathematics on my own. Our economics course only had Statistics in the last year.

Yes, I can talk about it in SoP, but how would I give them a good proof that I really possess UG level maths knowledge?

[half meadow]

While this would be an impossibly uphill battle if you were applying for a doctoral program in mathematics itself, it's probably not a showstopper for an MSc in the same subject you actually have a degree in. Still, it's unlikely they'll want to read and judge an expository paper just for proving yourself (and the academics judging your application will be economists rather than mathematicians anyway).
Would taking a GRE Mathematics be an option?

[tacit lark]

I don't think writing an expository paper on basic analysis is much proof either. It's unlikely they would even want to read that. Like what Troposhere said taking the mathgre may be a good idea.

[clear kelp]

I thought of taking GRE, but I'm applying to UK universities.

[tacit lark]

I'd ask professors that you know well.

[grand palm]

A recommendation from a math prof stressing on your self learning process would also be helpful

[tacit lark]

They will know more about graduate admissions in economics in the UK

[clear kelp]

That's the problem here. I have graduated from not a well-known college in a third world ccountry

[main marlin]

Hey everyone I had some academic related questions. Can I ask here?

[clear kelp]

And my professors themselves have never written anything like LoR, and there crededntials are not very strong.

[clear kelp]

Yes, I would contact a prof. mentioning that and my expository paper.

[tacit lark]

just ask

[shell kindle]

Lots of math people don't know any statistics

[hot wadi]

take exams in these ug topics, and have rec letters saying that u took exams in whatever and did whatever

[half meadow]

Research in pure mathematics (other than statistics itself) is probably one of the STEM career paths where lacking stats knowledge will cause you the least regret.

[shell kindle]

You should try not to fail your statistics course

[balmy tiger]

Is there an official way to do this? Or would you have to try to arrange tests at some institution personally? I'm sorta in a similar situation as the OP in that my undergrad was in engineering, but I am thinking of doing applied math in grad school.

[hot wadi]

not for me

u just contact the professor(s)

tell them about your situation

and just look for ways that can prove that u really do indeed know for example undergrad analysis

mine was to just take final exams

and they were happy about it

in this situation i would guess(idk) its almost impossible to get admitted to any phd program

a msc is optimistic but maybe possible idk

maybe the admission will like ur self-learning shit

maybe this isnt proof enough since u really dont have them on ur transcipt

if someone is in an admission commitee please share haha

[balmy tiger]

Seems like something to try at least

I hope it's not impossible for applied math in this situation. I do have math on my transcript, just not stuff like abstract algebra or real analysis

Maybe just doing really well on the math GRE will be enough

[balmy tiger]

You'd think they would, but it's certainly true that it's harder to prove that something was self-learned. I guess if they are convinced it also shows some initiative

[tacit lark]

it's a msc in econ not math

[wispy dagger]

hi

[raw quail]

Should I try to explain my unintentional gap year in my SOP? I basically got rejected from (almost) everywhere last year and am reapplying, but I don't know how to really explain that in the SOP in a way that sounds good?

[subtle knoll]

Personally I would choose to either ignore it, or put a one line solid contextual explanation.

[main marlin]

it's not necessarily a bad thing to take a gap. Feel free to (concisely) explain it but don't make a big deal out of it since there should be space for other things.

[raw quail]

Right, I feel like I want to explain it, because I do want to explain what I've been doing during it, but I feel like my options are to basically

1. lie and say the gap was intentional,
2. explain my gap as bad luck (not taking accountability)/an issue with my application (possibly too self-critical?), or
3. ignore the reason entirely (which just given the rest of my SOP's style seems awkward, I kinda present each point in a cause-and-effect style narrative).

I suppose there's a middle ground between 2 and 3 where I acknowledge being rejected from almost everywhere but don't analyze it at all, but again I somewhat feel that would clash with my style in a way that makes it look like I'm intentionally omitting something? I'm probably overthinking this though

[crimson valve]

I wouldnt acknowledge being rejected from everywhere tbh

Probably lie and say "family reasons" or smth like that

I'd honestly not even mention it

[raw quail]

yeah, I mean I have good stuff to talk about during this gap year, I'm pretty sure I can spin my current job into sounding good on the SOP, it's just getting from talking about my academic work to talking about my gap year work is kinda a rough transition.

[crimson valve]

oh then its p much a non-issue

Its also just a single sentence imo, just put it somewhere

it wont really matter where

[raw quail]

yeah fair enough, I guess I should probably fight the urge to over-explain myself

[stoic jewel]

If I have a supervised research project experience (combinatorics) but it's not that related to what I'm interested in (Harmonic anlaysis), should I still include it in my statement of interest? Or should I just talk about what I'm interested in working in my future studies instead?

[shell kindle]

You should discuss it and use it to demonstrate skills that are relevant for all forms of mathematical research

[stoic jewel]

Okok, thanks

Also what is the appropriate length of a SOP? Mine is around 1000 words now, and I'm worried if that's too long, is it?

I kinda want to add more

[cold tiger]

the program you apply to should specify the length requirements

Altho, a good rule of thumb is one to two pages

[torpid echo]

Many don’t

[grand wyvern]

mine is about this long

[stoic jewel]

oki, thanks! thats helpful

[smoky jetty]

I've got some community college credit for like gen eds

That I've taken over multiple summers

So these are institutions I got credit from but like

I didn't attend them continuously

So when an application asks for the dates I attended should I just put the start as the start of the first course I took

And the end as the end of the last course I took?

[crimson valve]

i personally didnt bother putting any commmunity colleges for my application

even though I had a few classes from them

its not really what they want to know i guess

[hushed lion]

Hi guys, when you write about why you want study math, what questions you ask yourself? All I think is that "I like reading it, it's interesting, I like doing problems, etc" can't write much.

Sorry if my question isn't clear but I can't find the right one.

[main marlin]

Is a good masters program attainable with an 3.5 avg gpa between community college and uni

I figure if I take out loans to pay theres a better shot than a PhD

[grand wyvern]

Thats what I did, I did dual credit classes in HS and i remember some applications saying you have to put these as well. So I just said started in 2015, ended in 2020 . I did get an associates degree first, then transferred to a university, though

[outer reef]

dont write about why you want to study math

as you have noted it is a useless question

with no answer

[tacit lark]

Yea probably

[raw quail]

do letter writers typically have to submit by the application deadline or do they have a window after the student's deadline to submit?

I assume it's the former but it occurs to me I don't actually know

[hushed lion]

What are you suggesting?

[tacit lark]

i think it depends on the program. I remember some programd stating a deadline for letters that was after the student's deadline. If I didn't see that I assumed it was due the same day.

[outer reef]

my first message replying to you contained my suggestion

[smoky jetty]

I mean

alot of prompts ask to talk about why you are interested in some area of math

[pulsar furnace]

Why you're interested in that area of math, sure. Not generally why you're interested in math

[smoky jetty]

fair

also bruh Cornell just stopped accepting apps

when their apps are due the 15th

wtf

I wonder what's going on

[shell kindle]

🍵

[pulsar furnace]

Huh, they don't give any indication of why?

[subtle knoll]

they have a thread on it on MathGRE forum.

[smoky jetty]

Our program is bigger than its typical steady-state size: strong recruiting has caused a modest increase, while COVID-impact has lengthened the typical time-to-PhD. We are committed to providing enhanced funding to our current students.

[shell kindle]

Ah ok

Sensible

[smoky jetty]

I should not have clicked that thread

[past plume]

What

Thats wild

[smoky jetty]

Yea

Guess I save on the application fee

[past plume]

Can we not post links to that website here, please?

[smoky jetty]

I regret looking at that thread lmao

[subtle knoll]

sure, as you wish

[past plume]

Thanks

[storm epoch]

Yeah, that website in particular seems discouraging and not very helpful: see pins. Especially that post which appears to be spreading unverified claims about some school's admissions.

[undone yacht]

may be of interest to somebody https://www.math.uu.se/the-department/vacant-positions/?positionId=659765

[shy thunder]

why

[smoky jetty]

Gave me dread about the possibility of some schools accepting less students due to less students graduating

Similar reasoning to Cornell

[shy thunder]

less students graduating? Isn't there usually a higher trend of people graduating at the graduate level with some degree

like if they dont get the phd they automatically get the masters if they leave the program and have completed the work of a masters

believe they get awarded an MA or a Masters of Philosophy or something, right?

[crimson cradle]

i have a meeting with a potential msc supervisor tmrw

what are some questions i should ask?

no research exp btw

[inner grove]

I'm sure you already know this: but I wouldn't overworry about this. Schools are going to need math PhD students to TA, so there will be acceptances. It's impossible to predict, in general, how or where you'll get in. The best thing to focus on is the things inside your control: Getting a good subject GRE score (if applicable), making sure your letter writers know who you are, why you're applying, and what your goals are, and finally finishing this term strongly with your finals/classes

[eager kite]

Has anyone ever been ghosted by one of their letter writer? I asked a professor and they agreed but they stopped responding to my emails. I don't really have any other good choices for letters writers so I don't know what to do and it's getting to application due dates. Any advice/thoughts would be appreciated. Can/should I contact the schools I'm applying to and see if they'd consider me with 2 letters?

[shell kindle]

Can you try to communicate with them in person

But yeah that really sucks

I was in sort of a similar situation where one of my letter writers informed me sometime in November that they could only submit their letter to 5 schools??? It didn't make any sense but I had to scramble to find a 3rd letter writer for the other schools I was applying to

And the 3rd letter was not as strong but it still got me through the application process

[tacit lark]

Idk why some profs do this.

So ridiculous

[smoky jetty]

What an asshole move

[eager kite]

I don't think so :/ They're not teaching this semester and I've never seen them in their office. I know they host a seminar but I haven't been in this semester due to work conflicts so showing up to talk to them might not be a good look

[eager kite]

This is crazy lol

[shell kindle]

What is your earliest deadline?

Hopefully it isn't Dec 15

[eager kite]

12/13 hahah

[shell kindle]

Oh no

[smoky jetty]

My first deadline is the 5th so it could be worse 💀

Not much worse tho

I hope you find a new letter writer

Or convince this one to like exist again

[shell kindle]

Have you talked to your other letter writers about this particular one? They might have other ways to get in contact

[eager kite]

Yeah I've mentioned it to one of them, but they didn't offer much in way of advice. They just kinda brushed it off and said it'll work out

I can ask my other letter writer too tho

[eager kite]

me too haha thank you 🙏

[shell kindle]

Many schools allow you to submit 4 letters so you might as well just find someone

[eager kite]

Yeah, I have one person in mind, I'll try to explain things tactfully. There's a supportive prof I know that I've never taken a class with too, I could see what they think

Thank you tho, I appriciate the help ❤️

[tall token]

My earliest ddl is Dec. 4th and one of my letter writer still hasn’t responded to my previous email confirming recommendation requests. I think things will work out tho, they seemed busy.

[smoky jetty]

[tall token]

I was in the same shoe when applying for college, 2 or 3 people I asked recommendation for never responded to my emails, and they no longer worked at my school too.

But on the last day I ended up with 5 letters lol…

[frosty pond]

So this is the perfect time to bring up my related question.

Long story short: My bachelor's is non-STEM, I work full time to support a family, I'm going back for Math, I've done everything I could at the community college level, I'll be going back to my local state university to finish my last two semesters of math courses. Long term goal is to finish PhD at another university when our family is financially ready to move out of state.

My problem I foresee is that with only 2 semesters in the math department, that's 0 of any kind of experience outside of classroom and not enough time IMO to truly build relationships with professors and get good letters of rec. (And any program such as REU or summer internship is out of the question as I'll be working and I can't leave town). My plan is, since I'll still be in this city for a few years, is to head directly into the Masters program after and then get a local job with that degree. Again, I'll have a weak application even for that, but if I don't get accepted into it, the university still allows enrollment and completion of the first 1/3 of any Masters program as a non-degree student. If I do well in those courses, then they'll transition me into the official masters program. Which I still feel is a weak option in trying to get letters of rec and research experience for applying for a PhD program but will at least show I can handle graduate school.

There's really no alternate plan/pathway for me (trust me, I've been thinking about this all year). So my real question is, with that limited exposure to my local math department, does anyone have any advice for me to help build that relationship with professors over the next few years? I feel if I do that year undergrad + 2 years masters program that'll give me 3 years with them and that should hopefully be enough time, but then my follow up question is, what is the optimal way to obtain great research experience during a masters program with the hopes of doing a future PhD? Is there anything I can do now well in advance to get ready for a masters program without wasting time?

I'm asking now because I want to be well-prepared these next couple of years going in instead of asking at the last minute.

[calm relic]

I'd say try to attend events, student society stuff, department seminars, w/e. If you wanna get directly involved then look into emailing your department, student society, or profs you know to ask how.

As for what to do now, I'd say get into independent study. That's a major part of grad studies, and doing it now can help you catch up/get ahead.

It's worked pretty well for me, I'm currently taking a last minute swerve from a CS degree with focus on low-level systems to pure mathematics.

[balmy tiger]

By this, do you mean just learning math on your own? Or something more specific?

[blazing prawn]

yo check dm

[calm relic]

For me it was learning math on my own, though I mean just studying in general. Read an extra chapter from your textbooks or something maybe?

[balmy tiger]

How did you work math that you've studied on your own into a grad school application? Seems like people might be wary of just taking you at your word, but idk

[calm relic]

Currently working on that myself lmao, I'd say maybe work it into the application statement. I'd say if it's a specific subject maybe mention it directly, but otherwise just talk about studying in general

But honestly, it's moreso to back up the fact that you can do the work later on

[outer reef]

“w/e” lol

seminars are the only relevant thing of those

[calm relic]

I got to know the graduate chair of math for my university pretty well by going to student society events

[outer reef]

um

that graduate chair is weird for attending student events idk

[calm relic]

He's the department liason iirc

Also, being connected to the student society has made me more aware of what's going on in the department in general

[outer reef]

your department requires the grad students be chaperoned while socializing?

[calm relic]

I meant undergrad student society

[outer reef]

lol…

then it is just useless

[calm relic]

We were talking about how to get connections during undergrad

[outer reef]

just interact with grad students

via seminars etc.

ideally profs

[calm relic]

So your recommendation is to only be involved in the community to an extent

[outer reef]

student seminars can be quite useful

[calm relic]

Don't go to events that aren't specifically for learning

Sounds boring

Also what do you mean useless, did the student society at your university suck? I know the compsci student society at my university is a total mess

[outer reef]

my recommendation is to prioritize involvement in a community whose members are in training to be mathematicians (or are already), not some afterschool club for 19 yr olds

[calm relic]

Alright, don't hang around people that are in the same program as you, be an elitist

[outer reef]

lol

[calm relic]

You do you

[outer reef]

this person is obviously from a different background than the average undergrad…they are likely to have an easier time finding people with similar lived experienced among grad students

than among groups made up of people like you

[calm relic]

People like me 😲

I'm wounded

Astonished

And absolutely shocked

[outer reef]

anyway

[calm relic]

I can stand no more of your rudeness

Good day

[outer reef]

i think seminars are useful but it depends on your coursework so far. studying on your own is very helpful and i would suggest strategically skipping some courses if possible. ideally you would explain your situation to a prof who you expect to give good advice…it is important to try to optimize the courses you take

idk if research is so essential to do during your masters…but as you noted recommendation letters are, and probably the path to the former is the same as the latter

you should try to cultivate relationships with like 3-4 profs (but fewer is fine)

by taking advanced courses and succeeding in them

ideally over multiple semesters taught by the same person

so they can better speak to your abilities

[outer reef]

your instincts are correct

the only way to really provide evidence of this

is to take advanced courses which, on your transcript, indicate familiarity with the relevant prerequisites

(of course you want to do well in such courses, so you need to actually self-study the prerequisite material)

[violet lintel]

this has probably been asked many times, but can someone guide me to a text/website that gives me a real sense of how high my grades should be and any another say achievements I should have under my belt to have a chance at a top grad schools, MIT,Princeton, etc...

for pmath ofc

[shell kindle]

No

[violet lintel]

Its all good, i want the honest truth

[shell kindle]

We specifically do not allow chancing discussions here as per the pinned posts

[calm relic]

NSERC application finally finished \o/

Now I can get back to working on grad school applications

[granite marsh]

I see, sorry

[granite marsh]

Nice! same here lol

[calm relic]

Good luck dude!

[granite marsh]

Same to you!

[stoic jewel]

Are there any math programs in the US that only requires 2 letters one of my letter writers wrote me like 6 and now he's saying he can write no more...so I could only do two letters from now on

[worthy apex]

Your letter writer should just submit the same generic letter to each university.

[stoic jewel]

I am aware of that but it is what they said, they said they're on vacation starting now

[frosty pond]

The local math department has weekly seminars and colloquia throughout the year. I've never attended any of them but I have been wanting to. Related, dissertation defense's are technically open to the public, would it be weird to attend one without knowing anyone involved?

I'm self-studying the whole undergraduate curriculum but not for any way to prove/show that I've done it, but so when I do take those classes in the following semesters then I can actually learn and succeed instead of drowning, and hopefully have meaningful questions for professors in class.

[undone yacht]

not weird, just go

[half meadow]

As someone who has defended theses myself, it's a much nicer experience to present your work to an audience who's there because they're interested, than if it's just the committee and your advisor, plus your parents. Definitely go if you'd like a glimpse of the state of the art in such-and-such topic.

[smoky jetty]

go go go to seminars and colloquia

https://math.stanford.edu/~vakil/threethings.html

read this as well

[frosty pond]

That's aweomse! Good to know.

[frosty pond]

That was a good read, I looked at his other pages as well. Thanks!

[trim obsidian]

I've found that the best part of doing my graduate degree is working with others/comparing results with others. probably would be a great place to see people you already know from class and become more familiar with them. Professors too.

[frosty pond]

Yeah that's definitely the goal.

[grand wyvern]

deadline is today
one professor hasn't submitted his letter, despite saying he'll "get on it" 7 days ago

i didn't want to go here anyway, i guess

the application says

If you are concerned your letters will not be submitted on time, please reach out to the admissions contact for your program.
but i don't know what this means. is the admissions contact the "director of graduate studies"?

tfw i made a big mistake by applying to PhD programs without having an encyclopedic knowledge of everyone involved in the admissions process

[unborn coral]

doesn't hurt to just email the math department, they can forward your email to the right people

[outer reef]

yes, email the math department's director of grad studies...but perhaps refrain from styling your email as a 4chan post.

[smoky jetty]

It'd be funny if you started the email with "be me"

Do it for the bit

[grand wyvern]

Hahaha i did. He said its fine

As long as its just a little late…

[river hemlock]

Is there a section for undergraduate applications

[shell kindle]

No

[grand wyvern]

I have absolutely no authority in this server, but… maybe you could ask your question here and it will be okay

[smoky jetty]

Ehhhh leave this channel for grad apps

[shell kindle]

No

[torpid echo]

A prof sent mine like 2 days late. It was fine

Afaict (not liable for anything), the letters coming in a little late doesn’t matter

It’s not like they just look at the applications day 1, and I bet if they glance at one like, within a week of the date and see a letter is missing they just put it off to the side to come back to since this isn’t totally uncommon

[cold tiger]

my rule of thumb is I would remind the prof once. Twice, in special circumstances, and trust them.

You gotta trust that they know better, and (in general) they won't let you down.

Unlike your application files, deadline for reclets are not hard, afaik

Sure, it sucks if they review your application before your reclets arrive, but until they review your application, reclets can still be added and be (in general) considered.

[grand wyvern]

okay hes now one day late… if hes like over 1 week late should i remind him again?

[warm inlet]

I am applying for PhD in the US now, I am wondering how bad is it not to mention any professors on a SOP? Some schools I could pick out some faculty whose research looks interesting, but sometimes I have no clue - even if the professors and their research areas look interesting, their research is often very daunting and Idk what I could say about it that doesn't make me look completely stupid...

I already submitted some applications where I tried to say something specific about some professors, but retrospectively it might come as just scraping whatever I could find on their webpage (which is true)

[cold tiger]

have you reminded him before?

[grand wyvern]

Yeah, a week before the first schools’ deadline

maybe that should be first school’s

[warm inlet]

I would definitely remind him

[cold tiger]

Then go for it. One last time for good measure

[grand wyvern]

Pog. Yeah this coming-up reminder might actually just be my second reminder

So i didnt break your heuristic

[dire lichen]

Had you sent the letter request yet when you first reminded him a week before the deadline?

[cold tiger]

You're not supposed to understand their research, not without a lot of background reading, and that's ok.

That being said, try to mention a prof. It's prob fine not to, but in general it's not supposed to be impossible. And it shows why this school in particular and not others, i.e. the committee has one more reason to admit you.

Tldr: mentioning a prof shows that you did your homework, and not apply for prestige

Tho we almost all apply for prestige tbh

[grand wyvern]

Yeah lol

Thatd be a good meme. Remember to send my letter! Except you can’t yet! Also hi isaiah

[warm inlet]

Yeah, it's just that besides the fact they work in some field I am not able to comprehend much more about their research

I feel like I should be able to understand more by now so that's a bit discouraging hahah

[grand wyvern]

I didnt say much about professors

I named them and their fields

So did the guy who i based mine off of

He got into stony brook

[cold tiger]

you should know enough to have a very vague idea of what their research is about, and why you like them

but even then, I think it's too much to demand for many students

plus, your research interest can always change!

mine changes every few months so far 😄

[warm inlet]

Yeah that's what I wrote in my SOP

because I'll be doing my master's thesis next semester

I think my interests will probably shift quite a bit by the time I'm done

and then in the US there's one year of preparation for PhD

so that's a lot of time

could naming profs but being really vague hurt more than help?

It seems like I'd almost be dropping names just for the sake of it

[cold tiger]

yes, it means you have no idea what they do, and just wanna name drop because they are famous

it's better to talk less but correct, than more but nonsensical

remember, these profs might read your SOPs

so don't bullshit

[warm inlet]

That's why I feel bad about listing their names. I might find one of their paper which sounds cool and mention it, but I don't have the time to read them beyond the introduction

And they often require some preliminary knowledge which I don't have

[outer reef]

why do you think you should say anything about their research

it would look horrible to list no professors

[cold tiger]

try to expand as much as you can, but don't push too hard

[outer reef]

given that the vast majority of applicants will

ok, at best it wouldnt be noticed

but in many departments i think it would look quite bad

[cold tiger]

tbh, we don't know. I don't know anyone did that, and idk how it would have gone if they had done it

[outer reef]

and would imply that you have not even done the most obvious thing to assess whether the program is right for you

[outer reef]

everyone i know does this

[warm inlet]

If I don't say anything about their research, what do I say?

[outer reef]

like

everyone

[outer reef]

you just say you want to work with them

[cold tiger]

my best take is, in the grand scheme, it doesn't change a single bit of your admission. If you are good, you're good, period

[outer reef]

lol

[cold tiger]

I meant I don't know anyone who didn't namedrop a prof

[outer reef]

that is what i am saying

[warm inlet]

But how do you justify that without talking about their research

[outer reef]

you talk about your own interests

and then say someone

who is on paper relevant

and leave it at that

your audience knows a lot more math than you

and a lot more about the faculty at their university

than you

so you dont need to spell it out for them

and attempting to can easily backfire

[cold tiger]

Let's put it this way: suppose you wanna do NT. It'll be pretty bad if you apply to an uni where there is no NT research

[outer reef]

worse

if you apply somewhere with NT research

and dont list their NT profs

[cold tiger]

it's just to show you did your homework, and you know what you're getting into

[outer reef]

well

often the profs you list

[warm inlet]

They know more than me so they should know better than me what prof fits me well hahah

[outer reef]

will have a say in your admission

[warm inlet]

But I get your point

[cold tiger]

and they will, but until then, it's your job

[outer reef]

um

lol

do whatever you want

if you cannot articulate enough taste and maturity in mathematics to be able to say "prof X seems interesting to work with"

and hundreds of other equally qualified candidates can

then...

[warm inlet]

Comes back to my earlier question

What you suggests sounds super vague

[outer reef]

correct

i mean if you have a precise research program in mind, by all means indicate that

but i imagine if you did, then you wouldnt be asking

[warm inlet]

I guess I wondered if it was better to be really vague, or not say anything at all, but I guess I understand your point of view now

[outer reef]

it is optimal to be vague

you can justify it

by having a good application

and having done coursework etc. in the areas you claim to be interested in

like for instance if you did a ton of NT courses

and NT research

and whatever

and then you said "im interested in number theory"

and listed some number theory faculty

it would be fairly obvious why you're interested in those people

[warm inlet]

I guess so

The problem with my application is that it's not very focused, my interests are a bit all over the place

[outer reef]

that is fine

you can do the same thing i said

with multiple topics

[warm inlet]

I'm like schizophrenic between number theory, algebraic geometry and combinatorics lol

[hardy aurora]

they have big intersections

[outer reef]

wow...such disparate fields...

[warm inlet]

It's pretty wide if you consider everything there is, I agree they have big intersections

[outer reef]

lol

[hardy aurora]

if you consider everything there is, then even within a field there's plenty of subfields
But once you list those 3 it's quite clear what you like

[outer reef]

so you are interested in sieves

and scheme theory

[warm inlet]

Dont know sieves, but schemes yes

[outer reef]

or really just hodge theory or whatever

lol

that makes my point for me

[warm inlet]

So what's the point?

[outer reef]

you'll understand when you're older

cflau made it too

anyway as i said

you can do the same thing with multiple topics

and it sounds like you really do not have interests in wildly different areas

[warm inlet]

Alright, I'll do that then thanks

[frosty pond]

I mean this is an important part of your future, something that will dictate 5 years of your life and then some. You also have plenty of time to prepare, you said you have a year? Why can't you find time to read more about their research and delve into their papers? Why uproot your life to somewhere new and be under someone/a department and not know what you're getting into? It's not like they publish a new paper weekly.

[rapid dawn]

small question: where would one mention departmental/general honors in a CV

would it be after listing the degree. Like "BA in mathematics. Graduated with general + departmental honors." Or would you list it in the awards section

[vestal swan]

I wrote something like “with Distinction” or “with First Class Honours” at the end of my degree

[cold tiger]

Something like
Random University, Begin-End
BA in Mathematics

• Graduated summa cum laude
• significant awards if applicable

I put awards associated with my status as a student of my uni in Education section where I mention my uni, e.g., participating in a team competition representing my uni

whereas awards generally not associated with me being a student there are put seperated in Awards sectioin

[outer reef]

because this is not feasible to do with every prof who catches your eye lol

esp for someone whose interests are AG, NT, etc

[tacit lark]

Ya thats ridiculous

[outer reef]

it could take years of prerequisite-gathering to be able to read a given paper

in those areas

and honestly in nearly any modern area of math

[tacit lark]

I dont think anyone in math expects this

[outer reef]

it is important to read papers

but just to practice reading papers

and if graduate school applications are an excuse to do that, fine…but be realistic

also

the best departments for grad students tend to have profs who produce a lot of research

and a lot of profs

so…it often is like they post a paper every week

[frosty pond]

Yeah but that's what reading the introductions are for, to pick which one to look more into. OP makes it sounds like they're just listing a name to list a name, and pop it in their SOP for brownie points after reading an intro to one of their papers. I figured if someone is applying to XYZ school they should look into the department and see what fields of research the school is even doing, and then go through a couple recent papers and see more into the specifics. It doesn't need to be a full detailed readthrough with complete understanding. I'm not saying sit there for months and try to catch up in knowledge at the same level as the author on hundreds of papers. Pick your top 3-5 schools, look at their researchers, pick 1-3, review their most recent publication past the intro, move on. That's 3-15 papers over the course of a year.

[outer reef]

lol

have you done that

ever

[tacit lark]

Most people apply to more than 5 schools

[outer reef]

also

you need to look at every person who works there

for at least a short amount of time

to construct a good list

[frosty pond]

Yes

Still am

[outer reef]

well congrats ig

i couldn’t have managed that as an undergrad

[frosty pond]

I'm not saying I understand what I read lol but I understand a little more each time.

[smoky jetty]

lol the only things I can read and understand from prof's pages are (some) expository notes

[vague saffron]

I understand that there's a policy of not mentioning that website here, but do people here think profiles on that website are typical of a competitive applicant. I saw someone on that website with 5 published papers, 2 REUs, and an honors thesis...

[outer reef]

no most competitive applicants have at least 2x each of those

[warm inlet]

I am applying to quite a few unis to increase my chances, I can spend more time on my decision if I'm accepted... I have already spent days trying to read through some papers for my earlier applications and in the end I don't think it helped much with making my SOP look any better (or help me understand anything about their work). I was starting to feel I spent so much time on my PhD applications that I'm not focusing enough on my studies rn so I needed to reevaluate my priorities

I was only working towards applying for the PhD during the 2 months coming up to the deadline and I'm applying to like 10 schools, there's no way I could spend a lot of time on every school I apply to

[frosty pond]

No that's fair reasoning, apologies if I came off as brash.

[proper dirge]

Is it okay to email a professor at a program you are interested in to introduce yourself and show interest in there work? or would that come off as annoying/unnecessary

[stoic jewel]

I tried doing that, only 1 of the people I emailed responded and I did not really get anything too meaningful, they said they'd be on sabbatical. But maybe I was being too vague about my interests, if you have a good idea about what you want to work on you should always try

[paper granite]

At a PhD applications event I attended they strongly encouraged that you do this, that being said my friend emailed a whole bunch of people at various unis and I think he heard back from 2 of them. Your mileage may vary but I can’t see it hurting your application

They did say to email with like questions about your program and stuff, don’t just say hi I’m in interested in studying here, like as long as you have some substance it should be fine

[proper dirge]

fair enough , ty for advice.

[alpine prism]

What also helps is: write a rocking undergrad thesis, visit seminars, talk to the organizers, get invited to give talks at those seminars, and make sure you can answer vicious questions that some professors fire at you. 😉

[cold tiger]

get invited to give talks at those seminars
yeah.... that one is gonna be hard

[outer reef]

*ask to be invited

[outer reef]

yeah this is like the absolute best thing to do (besides taking a wide array of advanced courses)

as it gives your recommendation letter writers something very concrete to point at

and is very uncommon afaik

[cold tiger]

What might be slightly easier yet no less impressive is to solve an open problem in your thesis

Not all open problems are hard

but afaik there are very few, if any, opportunities for UGs to give talks

[hardy aurora]

how difficult is highly dependent on the field anyway
some fields have more easy open problems than others

[unborn coral]

http://www.openproblemgarden.org

[main nebula]

I've heard of some winter schools / research workshops, but winter break apparently seems too short to have research projects in the same way as summer, I haven't heard of any

speaking of, I went to a research workshop last winter (for phd students and postdocs, I was the only undergrad) and I was offered the opportunity to give a talk, but declined because I felt I wasn't experienced enough and didn't want to lower the quality of the workshop

is this (that I declined to give a talk) worth saying explicitly on a personal statement? or does the fact that I didn't give it basically nullify its relevance?

[tacit lark]

I wouldnt mention it. You didnt give a talk.

[outer reef]

you were personally invited? or there was a general call for early career attendees to present their work

[main nebula]

I was personally invited. but it was a workshop where participants learn different aspects of some topic and present it, so it wasn't my own work

[main nebula]

yeah you're probably right, thanks

[outer reef]

oh then yes you should not

accepting such invitations in the future might be a good idea

[shadow bobcat]

There's a lot of opportunities to give talks imo they'll just be contributed talks

Getting invited will probably be very hard though usually you have to know someone or have very good research

[warm inlet]

Okay, so this is a bit of a funny situation. I am currently going through my applications to the US and already sent quite a few (costs $$$) and I just got an offer for PhD outside the US. I have to answer quite soon if I'm interested. I don't know if I should just stop and not submit any more applications (which are ready, just waiting to be paid for). Was anyone in this position (I'm guessing it's not that uncommon)? What did you do? Do you have any advice to decide?

[shell kindle]

Well do you want it

[warm inlet]

Yes, I think yes, but also I feel kinda pressed into this choice without having more options on the table

[outer reef]

it’s not like you’ll hear back faster if you submit more

[warm inlet]

Also related question is what are the things to look out for before accepting an offer

[warm inlet]

I'd just be wasting more money potentially I guess

[outer reef]

i mean

if you need to decide on this offer before you would hear from US schools

then if you intend to accept it, obviously it is a waste to submit more

[warm inlet]

Related question, what are the things to watch out for before accepting an offer?

[outer reef]

you just said that

[warm inlet]

Sorry

[shell kindle]

Pay

[undone yacht]

what are the conditions? who will you work with? is it a country/city you want to live in? all depends

[warm inlet]

thanks, I guess I just need to let it sit a bit for now and think about it

[main marlin]

https://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/17zqct4/advice_for_those_applying_for_phd_programs_in_math/
If you haven't seen it, this is an informative post from a math professor at UF, and I most certainly agree with his take on undergraduate research.
edit: USF, not UF

[main marlin]

Sorry for this late response. I don't know if you're still up for more info, but it typically doesn't help your chance of admittance (if that's what you're doing) since professors have little to no influence on admissions.

If it's to determine where you should go, then it's more appropriate to email after your acceptance, not before.

[proper dirge]

makes sense , thank you

[shadow bobcat]

On this Idk, if you really want to work with someone you should email them beforehand that way you know if they're accepting students or not. If they say no you might check that school off. Also slight nitpick unrelated but that guy is a professor at USF

[tall token]

My personal experience is that if you have no idea what kind of math the professor you’re contacting does, then either they responds with kind words and “please apply”, or your emails got completely ignored. Two years ago, I had the experience of having a ten minute zoom interview with a professor I was cold emailing. But that went very crappy.

But if you are already a graduate student, know something about areas that you want to focus on, and have been attending some conferences, then you’ll get better chance knowing people in the area when meeting them in person. In all cases, I’ve also been told to apply and go through application, but the feedbacks will be warmer if you have personal connections. (plus you will be more confident including your connections in your sop).

[shadow bobcat]

I'm not saying to ask them about their field and act like an expert I'm saying if you're interested in someone and currently want to work with them, then email them to find out if they're even going to be taking graduate students. It happens that people go somewhere hoping to work with someone and then they find that person isn't taking students so they have to find a backup so to speak

[tall token]

Yes. I agree with you.

I’m just adding some of my own thoughts.

[shadow bobcat]

My bad I misunderstood

But that is a sentiment my advisor shared with me to not email them about their research specifically unless you have something meaningful to say

[main marlin]

It happens that people go somewhere hoping to work with someone and then they find that person isn't taking students so they have to find a backup so to speak
This is why one should keep an open mind rather than applying only because they wish to work with one or two specific professors. Anyway, if an applicant had a highly niche interest and at the department they're applying to, only one professor was working in that area then it'd be helpful to email and ask if the professor would continue advising new students.

[paper granite]

I wonder if this is a regional thing, because I was told to email them since professors are exactly the ones on the admissions team (and if the professor youre applying with isnt, theyre still in the same department as someone on the team and theyre likely to talk)

[main marlin]

it's for US Math programs, specifically.

I've heard a lot that non-US programs normally require emailing professors and getting their acceptance as a part of the admission

[paper granite]

Ah ok, im in the UK and they told us that unlike your UG application it is actually academics making the decisions, so if youve already spoken with your potential advisor it can help you out. But yeah they also said its quite different in NA as you dont really have as much of a 1 on 1 relationship with an advisor, not right away any way

As in, you might not even get paired with your advisor for like a year after you start as theyre typically more similar to CDC's

[main marlin]

Even in the U.S., it actually varies between fields and subfields. In many lab-based science programs, namely Biology and Engineering, "direct admit" works by the sponsorship of a faculty member who agrees to provide financial support to the applicant by working in their lab.

There are programs called "umbrella," which means first-year students in these programs rotate between different labs before determining which specific lab they should end up with in the long run. So they don't need to have PIs agreeing to take them as a condition.

Quite related (and funny), I was once "advised" by Biology and Engineering students to contact "PIs" based on my specific interests because, to their credits, "direct admit" also worked in Math while (Pure) Math typically isn't lab-based.

[half meadow]

I don't think you can lump "non-US programs" so together that you can make "normally" statements about them.

[main marlin]

Yeah sorry. I should've worded it better

[shell kindle]

?

[fleet ore]

Sorry I did not mean to send that lol.

[smoky jetty]

This is mainly me looking for an answer to calm my nerves. Applications due the 15th when my final grades come out the 22nd don't mean that if I don't do so hot on one math class I'm going to be in any danger right?

[subtle knoll]

no absolutely not. my impression is that they don't care so much about fall grades even, unless they ask you for an update.

but once you're in, unless you fail head first decisions shouldn't be revoked

[tacit lark]

yea unless they specifically ask for fall grades, but only one program I applied to did this.

[rapid dawn]

you might also be able to reach out to the program and explain your situation. Perhaps they could extend the deadline?

I don't imagine there is much downside to this. But I'd get a second opinion from someone that isn't me before doing anything

[warm inlet]

I will probably do that yeah

[warm inlet]

I know it's probably a subject which comes repeatedly, but what about the idea of accepting a PhD offer and backing out later if I get a better offer? I imagine it's frowned upon, but can it have any lasting consequences? Do you know anyone who went through this?

[undone yacht]

bad idea

[tacit lark]

I dont know anyone that has done that. It definitely doesn’t look good, but Id be surprised if it had lasting consequences.

You shouldnt accept an offer until youve heard back from all the schools you want to attend or by the deadline

[warm inlet]

would you mind expanding?

[warm inlet]

Thanks, I will try as much as I can to extend the deadline

[undone yacht]

research communities are small. i guess it would "work" if you goto some other field

[warm inlet]

as in the professor would hold a grudge?

[undone yacht]

yes

[tacit lark]

Thats surprising

[warm inlet]

I mean obviously he wouldn't be happy

[undone yacht]

why is that surprising?

[warm inlet]

but would he tell all the other researchers working in the field that I'm a horrible person?

[undone yacht]

let's just say they will not do you any favors

i personally do not know anybody that has had a student do this. it must be very rare. ok people drop out but not to take another phd position

[warm inlet]

let me precise that it would be before the start of the PhD

with way enough time to ask the next student on the waiting list

[undone yacht]

doesn't matter. other people are probably in line to take the position if you do not. but if you accept then they will have to cancel the psotion and do another round of recruitment

when a student accepts the other people will get a rejection notice. i have never heard of it working another way

i was in this situation myself. i declined the offer

[warm inlet]

thanks for that precision

[undone yacht]

(now i work with the guy that got the position instead of me, we both became professors)

[warm inlet]

I'm happy it worked out for you

so you took the bet without having any sort of safety

[undone yacht]

i was pretty sure i would get the other position

thing is you never know who you need a favour from in the future, avoid burning bridges

[warm inlet]

alright, thanks for this input