graduate-applications

[molten frigate]

that isn't necessarily good advice

[shell kindle]

No I would not recommend this

Far more likely to lead to depression

For a reality check you should ask a faculty member you are close with

[molten frigate]

I think it's far more reasonable (albeit harder) to compare with experiences of people you know

[shell kindle]

For example, one of the people writing your letters of rec

[molten frigate]

such as this or actual grad students who got in; people in these websites might exaggerate or cherrypick their backgrounds

[shell kindle]

There are no such websites

[molten frigate]

for instance, all good unis in my country (🇨🇱) lie somewhere in that range and their apps certainly weren't tossed

[shell kindle]

Rankings are a scam

[molten frigate]

and expecting 4-5 accepted papers from an undergrad in math is just ridiculous, that's the kinda impression you get from reading these websites lol

[main marlin]

this makes sense id guess profs would have a good knowledge of what it takes to get where and what would be realistic for particular students

[molten frigate]

they're barely even good as a rough measure to compare institutions; obviously a top 100 will be better than some uni in the 1000s but there's nothing wrong with e.g. not studying abroad if your country has a grad program with qualified faculty, exchange programs etc.

[tepid forum]

idk why but I haven't got such an extreme impression from said site

[shell kindle]

What site

There is no such site

[molten frigate]

it's also easy to artificially boost QS rankings specifically, here's a video I watched the other day (about Chinese grad students really, but about half the video is about rankings) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQWlnTyOSig

[tepid forum]

also when people talk about coming from an "unknown university" I'd usually assume they don't even appear on international rankings

100-150 is defo far too high to worry about it

[tepid forum]

not that rankings mean anything it's just that they might be vaguely correlated with how known they are

[gritty ruin]

I don't even know what QS is lmao

[molten frigate]

in that case I literally switched from a 100-150 to an "unknown uni" to do my masters smh

and I know a bunch of people from here that got into good US grad schools

[shell kindle]

If you don't know then don't worry about it

[molten frigate]

no one in application commitees cares about rankings lmao

[gritty ruin]

I'm really not worried (especially as I'm already in grad school), I just get the feeling that some people are overly worried about it for sure

And I'm pretty sure the applications people will be fully aware that even if they haven't heard of the university the student can be very good

[raw quail]

Mildly worried, one of my letter writer's has not submitted anything in a couple weeks

[shell kindle]

Email them!

[mystic jungle]

If you're applying to top 10-20 schools, it's a good reality check for how strong many applicants are.

[hearty radish]

No it’s not. There is no reality check, unless your reality is viewing response bias. There is nothing good about viewing such a site, and then not applying to a school because your grades or whatever don’t match up to other people who are applying with respect to that website

There will be strong applicants, and to a point you’ll be able to recognize your limits and your strengths when you’re applying to grad schools

[low tundra]

QS rankings don't matter.
https://www.topuniversities.com/universities/technion-israel-institute-technology
I won't name my uni but my uni has supposedly a ranking a lot better (also better under 'Mathematics'). My uni isn't even bad, but I don't know if I should even elaborate.

Technion by itself is sufficient to show these rankings are pure bullshit and are no measure of quality

There are also more 'objective' measures and how close you want to get to the top but then again I'm not sure if that by itself a healthy obsession. To me a mathematician should not obsess over (good/top/amazing/world-breaking) math paper submissions, but I am not a mathematician so I can't claim to know

[worthy apex]

When the university asks me to list professors I'd be interested in potentially working with, can I list associate professors or should I try to only list full professors?

[low tundra]

I'm pretty sure you can also list assistant professors???

[shell kindle]

Associate professors are usually either tenured or tenure track so that should be fine

Some institutions don't let non-tenure/tenure track faculty advise students

[low tundra]

I see

Either that or you risk being... advisorless, which has happened to some prominent people IIRC

[shell kindle]

You do not want to be advisorless

[worthy apex]

Associate professors are usually tenured I believe, but I'm shaky on the distinction between associate and full professors.

[shell kindle]

Yeah it's complicated and this distinction varies a lot by institution

[worthy apex]

I'm actually only going to list visiting professors as the ones I'm interested in working with because that seems like the best way to get into a school

[torpid echo]

Associate is fine

Assistant is what you want to be wary of

It can be hard to tel if they’re actually tenure track or just a postdoc

Often if a school has a lot of post docs you’ll notice a lot of ppl with “some dude’s name assistant professor”

This is almost surely a postdoc

I know Michigan has one like this, Harvard does, at Columbia they’re called Ritt Assistant Professors

Etc

usually

[shell kindle]

At Berkeley they are Morrey Assistant Visiting Professors if I remember correctly

Postdocs, that is

[mystic jungle]

What do you mean "not applying"? Of course you still apply, the reality check is about your chances of getting in.

[hearty radish]

Then why check if you're applying anyway

[mystic jungle]

To find out the competition in advance and get an idea before decisions actually come

[hearty radish]

It's a skewed perspective of the competition

[torpid echo]

It doesn’t do anything other than make you anxious and worry lol, and the arguably most important part of your application, your letters, are entirely absent from whatever ppl put down on these non-existent sites

[hexed ibex]

I'm pretty certain that a lot of people posting their application details on the site we all know of inflate their numbers

such as some random undergrad with 15 graduate courses
I guess it is possible if someone has absolutely no life

[crimson valve]

Rude.

[tacit lark]

Sound mad you couldnt take 15 grad courses

[hexed ibex]

why would I take 15 grad courses in undergrad lmao

[tepid forum]

that is quite a lot

[hexed ibex]

basically would need to take only grad courses from the third year

[tacit lark]

Ya your obv exaggerating. Rarely anyone claims that.

Most have a few

[tepid forum]

i haven't really been shocked by the strength of profiles I've seen but maybe I have an overinflated view or something

[not just the forbidden sites but generally]

also if they're claiming 15 grad courses it could be that you get to "graduate-level" maths at that university p quickly, like they might have general topology as a grad course etc etc

[torpid echo]

I took like… 17?

But I was on quarters

[hexed ibex]

I mean you are the exception

[tacit lark]

You have no life🤣

[torpid echo]

I just only took math classes my sophomore and junior year

[tacit lark]

Im jk

[torpid echo]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

And at least at my school if u were serious about math you stopped taking UG math classes as soon as possible

[tacit lark]

Its really school dependent too. It harvard its super common to take grad classes.

[torpid echo]

Because they kinda were really bad compared to the grad alternative

[tacit lark]

Ya exactly

There was a sophomore in all of my classes

We had the same schedule except he was taking more classes🤣

[torpid echo]

I mean talking to the ppl at my school from Harvard

[mystic jungle]

Just to be precise, I'm talking about 1 thread with 200-300 responses every year and not a site. When you see people with multiple research experiences, lots of courses, and good grades + tests get rejected, it demonstrates just how competitive the process is in the 21st century. It's true letters are absent, but it can't be the case they all suck and were being pulled through the courses and research by the professors without doing original work themselves.

[torpid echo]

The grad math classes are for UGs

Which is why post docs teach them

[tacit lark]

Im in cs

But ya ive heard that too

Youre supposed to pass quals immediately and then the courses dont matter

The theoretical cs classes are probably a bit tougher and are taught by faculty

[tepid forum]

you also get people with the absolute bare basics coursework-wise (not to be rude to them) also get into good programs

(again not to be rude) I was surprised some only had what is <=2nd yr courses over here

[hexed ibex]

This is a pretty different situation in different institutions

Here I haven't seen undergrads in classes beyond grad first year real/complex/algebra

[shell kindle]

A lot of grad school admissions is luck

[hexed ibex]

where I did undergrad it was also similar

[tepid forum]

i'd be interested to actually read my SoPs

[tacit lark]

Ya lucky by how smart god made you

[shell kindle]

Hope that the decision fatigue works out in your favor

[tacit lark]

Grad admissions is pure meritocracy otherwise

Its a noiseless channel

[tepid forum]

xd I'm bad at detecting sarcasm

[tacit lark]

It is a ton of luck

[hexed ibex]

I mean

yes

[tacit lark]

Its hard to detect sarcasm through text🤣

[raw quail]

do not post screenshots from that website

[crimson valve]

That person applied to schools where the operator alg ppl are dinosaurs

Ofc they didn’t get in lol

[raw quail]

in fact, just refrain from talking about that website

[tacit lark]

Free speech!

[tepid forum]

which schools?

[crimson valve]

UCLA and berkley

[tepid forum]

oh I applied to Berkeley

but

[crimson valve]

Oof

[tepid forum]

I said I'd also be interested in nonabelian combinatorics

[crimson valve]

Oh interesting

[tepid forum]

which Ruixang Zhang does a bit of

idk how much

[tacit lark]

Would you do additive combinatorics?

[crimson valve]

Is this using like harmonic analysis or whatever

Or non commutative harmonic analysis lol

[tepid forum]

yeah abstract/noncomm harmonic analysis as far as I understand

[tacit lark]

I see a lot of additive combinatorics published in GAFA which is somewhat confusing to me.

[crimson valve]

That’s pretty cool

[tepid forum]

probably because of the ties to harmonic analysis

idk if I'd actually go to Berkeley because Voicelescu is 73

[crimson valve]

Yeah he and rieffel are too old

[tepid forum]

marc rieffel is like mid 80s lmao

didn't even ask

[crimson valve]

Rieffel is the advisor of my undergrad advisors advisor

He is like my academic great grand father in a way

Lol

[tepid forum]

Voic said yes though, which is weird cos people younger than him have warned against

idk Berkeley is kind of a crapshoot overall

[mystic jungle]

Absolutely true. I know one person going into a top 10 school for number theory/algebra who had only the basic upper undergraduate courses like linear algebra, real analysis, abstract algebra, and field theory. Publishing a number theory paper, being a TA, and (presumably) having great recommendations lifted her application.

[tepid forum]

and I'm not so sure on the additive combinatorics stuff since I've never done it before, just done some noncom harmonic

[turbid pike]

i wish i could go to berkeley

[crimson valve]

right i had these top schools without like, many C* ppl on my list

[tepid forum]

it'd be cooler if I got into princeton

[crimson valve]

and when applying i just decided not too

lol

[tepid forum]

but I'm not going to get into princeton

[crimson valve]

oh how do u feel about like math phys btw

[tepid forum]

no issue with it

i've quite liked spectral theory

so maybe

[turbid pike]

i wish i could study under frenkel

[crimson valve]

im reading a C* math phys book rn

its pretty cool

[tepid forum]

and I might do some applications to QM as part of my project (on computational spectral stuff)

[turbid pike]

john, did you know that we share a name?

[crimson valve]

kind of justifying a lot of terminology like state and what not

[mystic jungle]

If that's a rule, can you add it to #rules so people know?

[tepid forum]

there's this paper maybe https://arxiv.org/pdf/2210.12516.pdf

that i might look at

[crimson valve]

oh that looks nice

[raw quail]

Read pins

[turbid pike]

anyway

[mystic jungle]

I don't see anything about it in pins

[turbid pike]

i think it would be cool if one of you guys could mentor me

[crimson valve]

my name isnt actually john u know lol

[turbid pike]

huh, really?

why'd you pick the username

[tepid forum]

yeah definitely not an isolated case either

it confuse(d/s) me

[tepid forum]

ig if they have a publication that's ++++ but othw idk

[turbid pike]

i really want to be able to publish a paper in undergrad

[crimson valve]

why?

also serge not really appropriate for the channel

move to like discussion.

[turbid pike]

wait

fuck

i thought this was discussion

i just clicked on the starred post or whatever

[raw quail]

Anyways, that website is a very toxic place, and this decision is final. If you want to discuss this further you can DM @jaunty pewter

[crimson valve]

maybe i should apply to princeton for the math phys

hmm

what program in princeton are u applying for @tepid forum

[tepid forum]

maths

but I kind of fudged the personal statement, I substituted in a wrong paragraph which mentioned operator algebras

and i don't think Naor does operator algebras

big F

[crimson valve]

oof

[tepid forum]

I did talk about Naor's interests though

it was just one sentence which said that, which I had just copied from another app, which was a bit annoying

[crimson valve]

i see, thats probably not a big deal

[tepid forum]

it's a crapshoot anyway, I really nailed down my Illinois and A&M statements

and will do so with my oxf one too though i think that's less important

[crimson valve]

nice

really hoping for UIUC or A&M too

[rapid dawn]

anyone applying to UCLA? Where are you supposed to submit your list of courses taken?

do they want a full list submitted under "supporting documents" or do they just want you to list them in that weird section where you can only list 5 courses

[void gyro]

Anyone into geometric analysis here?

[rapid dawn]

CMU has their application through mathprograms.org?

[gritty ruin]

On the subject of Berkeley/UC unis, it's looking like the pay there will go up significantly over the next couple of years

[tacit lark]

Caltech raised stipends to 45k minimum

Idk how the housing is over there tho

[smoky jetty]

I hear mixed things about Caltech living costs

[shell kindle]

So Cal is expensive

Caltech is not unique

UCLA has similar problems

[tacit lark]

Some universities subsidize housing tho

Ive heard stanford/Berkeley do that

[smoky jetty]

Someone once told me that Caltech was fine if you live an hour off campus

Which like what's the point

[shell kindle]

For someone from places with low costs of living, So Cal rents will be eye watering

[shadow bobcat]

UIUC stipend is low but I assume CoL is cheaper there

[shell kindle]

Yes

[torpid echo]

I don't think Berkeley does

[smoky jetty]

It's quite cheap

My rent for a 2 bedroom next year is 700 a month

Perks of middle of nowhere: cheap rent

[mystic jungle]

Congratuallationalah, the grad strike worked

[gritty ruin]

I believe UC Village is cheaper than usual (and I believe you need to be married to be eligible to live there). But otherwise not the case - I pay $1400 a month in Berkeley-owned housing.

[gritty ruin]

It’s not for sure yet, and there are still areas that are massively lacking (childcare and NRST particularly), but it’s looking good on the wages front.

[shell kindle]

UC Village is also relatively far

[gritty ruin]

Yeah

None of the other housing is subsidised- and there’s also a either regent policy or state law that disallows subsidised housing from the UC’s part.

And UC village isn’t technically subsidised

It’s just the entire area is owned by UC so they own the entire market

[shadow bobcat]

That's not bad leaves about 12k for other expenses

I assume you need a car too

[mystic jungle]

Yes, supplement 1

[smoky jetty]

Or a roommate / friend with a car

[mystic jungle]

I already submitted, but I checked my application proof and it's the last 2 pages of the proof

[shadow bobcat]

I already have one luckily cause I go to school in the middle of nowhere hours from where I live lol

[smoky jetty]

Nice

I only use my car to get groceries

On campus bus is good enough for everything else

[shadow bobcat]

Nice

[smoky jetty]

I will say I don't know anything about the grad math community

I know a ton of CS grad students and they seem tightknit and they're super nice

The math grad students here seem more closed but also I'm an undergrad

[shadow bobcat]

Yeah I'm just super interested in Balogh and Ford

[smoky jetty]

And the only reason I know CS grad students is I TA CS courses

Ford is super cool

Balogh is scary in seminars

[shadow bobcat]

The grad students at my school are pretty closed off until you get to know them

[smoky jetty]

I feel so bad for the presenters

He grills them so hard 😭

Also his intro grad combo course looks quite rough

But I wanna take it next fall

Balogh is clearly brilliant though

I mean I'd prefer roommates

I get lonely lol

But that's interesting about Caltech

Maybe I will look at California for grad school

[torpid echo]

in NYC, in our housing if you have roommates it's like 1.4k a month

[smoky jetty]

💀

[torpid echo]

and this is in Manhattan so, I imagine shared housing eve in CA is like 1.5k max

[shadow bobcat]

I looked at UCSD but I couldn't quite work out how much the math stipend was

[torpid echo]

I feel like you won't have a good idea of wht UC stipends are until these strikes end

and the bargaining finishes

[shadow bobcat]

Well the main issue for me was there's TA, reader, and tutor. TA gets 46k annually, tutor 34k, and reader 28k

[mystic jungle]

I think the big problem is the "if", different departments pay differently

[smoky jetty]

What's reader?

[shell kindle]

I'm pretty sure grad students all TA

[smoky jetty]

Like what's reader vs TA

[shadow bobcat]

Idk these are all the grad student pay rates there

https://grad.ucsd.edu/financial/employment/student-pay-rates.html

[shell kindle]

https://math.ucsd.edu/students/graduate/employment

[shadow bobcat]

My plan is take the car places where it wouldn't be a hassle get rid of it if it would be a hassle

No idea how I'll move my PC without the car though

Yeah I reckon that's the only way

[smoky jetty]

I've heard your advisor can't pay you if you have a TA stipend

Like you get one or the other

[shadow bobcat]

Yeah I've heard of the grants things in other fields my friend is a grad student our engineering department and he gets double cause his professor matched his stipend to bring him back they have a big military grant though

Our stipend is small though since he's a master's student

[gritty ruin]

It will depend on if you're a TA vs reader/tutor vs SR

I will say the bargaining is shaping up to be close to finishing

So reader/tutor figures I don't know much of - they are paid hourly

Pre top-up it's shaping up to be about $35k for a 9/10 month TA appointment

But that's from Oct 2024

It will go up to that over the next couple of years

(currently pre top-up at UC unis is about 23.5k for a 9/10 month TA appointment)

[tacit lark]

In many fields your advisor pays for your stipend or splits it with the university depending on teaching requirements unless you have outside funding (like nsf grfp or some other fellowship). For instance, starting next year my advisor will be funding me.

[shadow bobcat]

Ah I'm pretty sure ours are just in a department pool pretty much since it's 10k or so

[lusty crater]

I am currently a CS senior, with a full time job offer as a SWE, but i really do want to get my masters in CS primarily (not SWE since i like math 🙂 ), and also my teacher said i should consider getting a PhD since i would be a good fit. how often do people go for a PhD after working? or do you think i can work and go to night school?

[tacit lark]

In my cohort there are many people that worked before starting a PhD. @lusty crater

[delicate kite]

It's very often in CS. In fact, I know few people who did his Bachelor's in Linguistics and then PhD in CS from CMU. His job experience really helped him

[lusty crater]

Is there still opportunity for research in cs

I think I would like research but I am not creative enough to think of research and also I don’t think I’d be able to find a job near where I live

[rapid dawn]

no computing is entirely solved

you can tell this by the fact that there's a general procedure to find the most efficient way to solve any problem and that all technology works flawlessly

and by the fact that there were 67775 cs papers submitted to arXiv this year

(as a serious answer, yes there is still opportunity for research in cs, it is relatively common for people to go for a PhD after working)

also if you do a PhD your advisor will help you find research topics.

[tepid forum]

also you'll need to remember that P = 0 or N = 1

[mystic jungle]

Shaking my smh my head, why doesn't everyone just run Hutter search and turn the constant factor into small potatoes for large n?

[lusty crater]

oh well of course, only if there is a proof of p

[sudden shuttle]

Imagine getting into grad school without 5 first author papers

[tacit lark]

Im first author on all my papers😎

[tepid forum]

are first authors a thing in maths? i thought authors were often listed in alphabetical order

[tacit lark]

Doesnt matter tho since math papers are alphabetical lol

[tepid forum]

ya

[tacit lark]

Im changing my last name to Aaron. Ill always be first author!

[tepid forum]

Aaron Aaronovitch

[lusty crater]

I wanna get an erdös number

[tacit lark]

Ya its not too hard to get a pretty low erdos number in math/theoretical cs.

[smoky jetty]

I wonder what my Erdos number is

[tacit lark]

There is some website thatll calculate it for you

You just have to input your coauthors.

[smoky jetty]

Oh mine is 5, neat

[tepid forum]

mathscinet has a calculator

[smoky jetty]

yea just found it, that's what I used

[tacit lark]

Mine is 3😎

3 is not impressive considering my papers are in extremal combinatorics.

2 is very cool

[torpid echo]

I’m gonna get a Erdos number of 1

[tacit lark]

Prob possible

[torpid echo]

https://tenor.com/view/greggifs-koidl-stefan-koidl-demon-demons-gif-14263793

Me resurrecting Erdos to co-publish

[tacit lark]

Im pretty sure he has papers that were published after his death

Finished by his coauthors

Just get on one

posthumous papers

[smoky jetty]

5 seems reasonable for me

Since technically the professor I work in is in control theory

So that's a bit away from pure math anyways so gotta take some steps to get to math

[worthy apex]

I can loan you a shovel.

[ocean kiln]

Apparently Duke let's you submit the GRE subject test score only if you also submit the general GRE

[sterile bone]

anyone here applying to IU bloomington by chance?

[raven sun]

Can we petition to remove this channel from view in like 2 weeks

asking for a friend

[smoky jetty]

1: why
2: I like this channel for REU app questions 🥲

however if this becomes like site-that-shall-not-be-named then yea kill it

[ocean kiln]

Why two weeks?

Most decisions come out in March

[mystic jungle]

You can mute the channel on your end if you want to ignore it

[sonic surge]

ppl are asking about reu appa in here?

[shell kindle]

Some people have

[hearty radish]

Does reu appa fall under this channel though?

[sonic surge]

that's what im asking

my involvement with this channel and its creation has been nil so

ill be back

lol

[olive crater]

How useful are theoretical computer science courses while applying for graduate programs in mathematics? The CS department at my university (which also happens to be fairly well known for theoretical computer science) offers some pretty nice and interesting courses that are basically proof-based math courses. But I don't know how CS courses are viewed by math departments across the world, and it would be a shame if the prevalent practice was for admission committees to look at CS courses and automatically assume that they weren't mathematically rigorous. Another issue with the whole thing is that I doubt that any math department outside my home country has ever heard of my institution. In which case it seems to be even more risky to take CS courses in place of (equally rigorous)math courses.

[shell kindle]

What sort of math do you want to do

[olive crater]

As of now my interests seem to lie mainly in combinatorics and number theory, but that could change because I am yet to take abstract algebra, real analysis and topology (I'm 3/8th through my undergrad degree)

I also found set theory and computability theory quite interesting.

[smoky jetty]

I have been spamming this channel with REU apps questions lol

[smoky jetty]

I mean you may do what I'm doing

and just become deeply interested in a mix

[olive crater]

As in?

[smoky jetty]

uhhhh

algorithms and complexity can get quite mathematical

numerical algorithms seems like a big thing

alot of math people seem to dig type theory and proof automation and programming language theory

formal logic has it's place in stuff like program checkers / verification

stuff like that

[olive crater]

Applying to theoretical computer science programs as a math major would be an extremely difficult uphill battle though, right?

I neither have the space (in terms of course slots) nor the desire to make CS my main 'thing'. But as an undergraduate, I believe it would do me good to 'explore' different sorts of interesting math.

I am also not interested in Systems or AI/ML, so if coursework in those areas of computer science is a requirement(explicit or implicit) while applying to CS theory programs, then I would not go out of the way to fill my undergraduate transcript with them rather than doing math.

[smoky jetty]

I know multiple CS theory people who only did math majors in undergrad

not sure about the requirement of systems and AI/ML and such

I doubt that's the case

I mean I'm only taking CS theory classes

no interest in systems and such

[olive crater]

I see, that's nice to hear.

[smoky jetty]

my understanding is that CS phd programs don't really have course requirements to get in?

[olive crater]

Implicit ones, rather than explicit?

[smoky jetty]

Never heard of this

[olive crater]

I see, thanks

[smoky jetty]

Like the last programming course I did was a data structures course in freshman year

I can program, I just don't like to lol

I just take algorithms courses

(in addition to my math courses)

and I think it'll be fine? I haven't heard anything to the contrary

[olive crater]

Although my question was mainly about how theoretical CS courses are viewed by math departments(i.e. would they be viewed as equivalent to proof based math courses)

Not really about the feasibility of switching my interests and applications towards the CS side

[smoky jetty]

Ah

yea idk about that (tho now I have the same question lol)

[olive crater]

It does make perfect sense, yes

[olive crater]

I assume you are an undergraduate?

[smoky jetty]

ya

[olive crater]

Which year are you in?

[smoky jetty]

Junior

[olive crater]

Oh ok

[olive crater]

To give a concrete example, let's say I take a CS course called 'Computational Number Theory', which at my university is taken by a renowned professor in the field, and is heavily mathematical. When I apply to math grad schools though, they have neither an incentive nor evidence to believe that the course was indeed taught in a manner that any other proper math course was taught.

And from the perspective of optimizing grad school admits(sounds terrible, I know, but there is no other way to put it), I might be at a nonzero disadvantage when compared to a copy of me who took a similarly high level math department course in place of it.

[shadow bobcat]

Afaik a large amount of TCS people have a strong math background usually either a double major, a minor, or a straight up math degree

[vestal swan]

Yeah, my plan for graduate studies is to go into theoretical computer science in either computational complexity theory or algorithm design (or a mix of the two), and it seems as though having a strong mathematical background is very useful in that regard

[tacit lark]

As a phd student in tcs most of the time i wish i knew more math than more cs.

[zenith crown]

Same, Same

Although it is nice sometimes when programming is needed, for what it's worth being able to quickly bang something out in Coq or implement somebody's algorithm in pythong is useful 👍 👍

But the programming "method" of teaching and learning is terrible, I've learned much more from e.g., the math flavored textbook klienberg & tardos than I have from a programming prof

[tacit lark]

maybe. but if you have solid math coursework, then taking tcs courses wont hurt. Ik people that got into very good math and cs phd programs.

[smoky jetty]

one of the CS grad students I know is basically only taking a bunch of math courses here at UIUC

[olive crater]

I get that, but even the slightest risk taken by someone at an unknown institution means instant rejection. As far as my interests are concerned, they are (as of now) not leaning towards anything that could specifically be considered CS rather than math.

[shell kindle]

Is there a reason you are optimizing for grad school admissions instead of maximizing learning

[tacit lark]

I dont think thats true but ok.

I dont think taking some theoretical computer science courses will cause you to get instantly rejected. Many math students have taken courses in other areas like theoretical physics or cs.

[olive crater]

I am not, I was asking about the future. And I meant to ask about choosing between courses in the event that both of them are equally appealing but one is math and the other is CS.

I didn't mean to say that I would take an easier/more basic/less interesting math course when i can take a nicer cs one

[tacit lark]

I dont think taking a course that is basically a math course but offered in cs will have a negative affect on your app.

[olive crater]

Right, but those people must be very strong applicants already, such that they have the luxury to not think about what admission committees might think.

[tacit lark]

I dont believe that is true but ok. Do what you want.

Dont ask questions if you just completely disregard the answer.

[olive crater]

I meant to ask about a 'marginal' negative effect as compared to a situation where a math course is taken.

[olive crater]

Sorry for coming across as stubborn/fixated on my own opinion

[tacit lark]

Ya i understand, i dont think taking a math course instead of a tcs course will negatively affect your app as long as you have solid coursework in analysis, algebra and whatever your main interest is.

[olive crater]

Didn't mean to come across that way, or to imply that you are 'wrong' and that I know it all.

[olive crater]

Does make sense, yes. Thanks

[smoky jetty]

idk anyone who has done this

wouldn't be surprised if this could happen

Although lemme add that I know basically 0 math graduate students here

they seem very hard to get to know

the CS grad students seem much more open

hence I know more CS students who did math undergrad than vice versa

[tacit lark]

Yes

Its very hard. Most cs people dont have the background required for a math phd.

[worthy apex]

All the schools I'm applying to keep asking things like "have you ever been placed on probation by the school or received disciplinary action for violating school rules", and it sucks, because I got in trouble my first semester of my first year for underage alcohol consumption and haven't been caught since then (at least until I turned 21).

Will this hurt me significantly?

[past plume]

Is it on record

[shell kindle]

Wow actually getting caught…

[worthy apex]

Maybe? I think so?

[shell kindle]

You can use some of your personal statement to explain what happened

[fair needle]

i remember i applied last cycle and dartmouth asked me if i got suspended in high school (i did twice, but obviously got myself into check when i was a teenager)

that shit fucked me up

lmao

why would they ask that

speaking of last years apps

really still hopeful rutgers accepts me for fall '22

the semester starts in -4 months so hopefully they get back to me soon

[smoky jetty]

If an REU says they just want a "short statement"

is that more along the lines of a personal statement, or a research statement?

I have both written which is why I'm asking

[shell kindle]

Do they say what they want from the statement

[smoky jetty]

No

[shell kindle]

Lol rip

[olive crater]

In cases where the nature of the statement is not specified, is it not wiser to go with a research statement? Kindly correct me if I am wrong.

[wheat pelican]

Time to get rejected by all REUs

What do you do if you get rejected by all REUs

[shell kindle]

As someone who got rejected by all REUs (twice), one summer I took classes and another summer I took classes and did a reading course

The only thing that saved me from getting rejected by all REUs a third time was Covid

[wheat pelican]

do you have any advice for REUs? Like what would you have done differently, or what do you think was your weakness?

[past plume]

If its not on record then I wouldn't mention it at all. If you have to, then I think as ange said, spend a little of your personal statement explaining that

[shell kindle]

My weakness was not being one of the top 5 students in my year at my undergrad

Also not having any famous letter writers

Maybe I’m being a bit cynical here

[olive crater]

Seems pretty reasonable to me.

In order to get into a university for grad school, one needs to have letter writers who know the admission committee personally right?

[shell kindle]

No

Grad schools are not as competitive as REUs

[torpid echo]

Wat

[shell kindle]

Grad school is definitely less competitive than REUs are

[torpid echo]

Press x to doubt

If this is true, it’s fucking stupid then

[shell kindle]

Why

Just think about how many grad students are admitted each cycle versus how many people get into reus

There are not that many reus, and they are generally small

[shell kindle]

Does it reduce the applicant pool by that much

Most of my cohort is not international

[tacit lark]

No

[tacit lark]

This is just wrong.

[mystic jungle]

There are 50k math majors in the U.S. and 600 summer REU spots. Even if just 5% of math majors are applying to REUs, that's a lot of competition.

[tacit lark]

It depends on the REU. You definitely dont need to be a ‘top 5’ student to get into an REU.

Maybe the REUs like duluth, uchicago, small, UVA

[shell kindle]

I didn't apply to any of those

[mystic jungle]

Maybe their college sucks, so it's top 5 or nothing. Top 5 in a top 50 university is good enough, but top 5 at University of Alabama is the bare minimum. Absolute strengths is a better question: courses, grades, any awards or competitions. At my REU there were a few people who didn't know what a group was, they must've got in with impressive accomplishments outside math courses.

[shell kindle]

I was at Berkeley

[tacit lark]

That makes a bit more sense a lot of REUs try to give opportunities to people at lesser known places or w less opportunities.

[mystic jungle]

Were you taking lots of tough undergraduate and grad courses? Any awards? Did you interact with professors outside class frequently and use those for recommendations? Without prior research, that's all you have for the application.

[tacit lark]

my ug school was ranked 136 and a decent number of kids got into REUs.

[shell kindle]

Yes, good coursework, good grades in those classes, no awards, good professor interaction

[mystic jungle]

Did you get feedback on statement of purpose and CV? Besides transcript, recommendations, and prior research experience, that's all there is.

[shell kindle]

Yes I did

Ok like whatever

I got into grad school without issue

I just had really bad luck with reus for some reason

[tawny hearth]

just my own personal anecdote: i went to a small school, had good rec letters and grades, didn’t get into any REUs, but got into a handful of top 50 PhD programs, if that sheds any insight on the competitiveness of REUs

[tacit lark]

Ya there is a lot of noise in REU admissions.

[shell kindle]

None of them ever bothered to reject me

[tacit lark]

Ya REUs ghost many people

[shell kindle]

Am I salty

Maybe

[tacit lark]

You still mad over REUs when youre in a PhD program

[shell kindle]

But the people who got into reus from my undergrad were those who would be considered top 5

[tacit lark]

Ya that may be what it takes when youre at a top school.

If REUs only accept students from elite schools they will likely lose their NSF support.

[shell kindle]

And had letters from famous faculty

etc...

[tacit lark]

Once again ^^^

REUs arent made for kids at top schools to just gain a bigger advantage🤣

In practice im pretty sure duluth lost their nsf support

Uchicago too maybe

But ya they arent supposed to

[mystic jungle]

Alright, that's outright bad luck. When I got rejected from all freshman year, 7 of 8 sent a rejection. Nothing you can do there, you definitely don't suck so much for that to happen intentionally. Without talking to you in person, I can speculate on the recommendations. Maybe the professors said you were just good and didn't show excellence, recommendations which imply a student can get all As but don't convey an air of potential outside classes are a death knell. As I see it, there's problem solving, class participation, and class size aspects to recommendations from courses. If you solved almost all the homework on your own, and was getting As before a curve or something that shows performance beyond an A not captured in just the letter grade, that's one good sign. If your professor engaged students during class about the next step or what should be done here and you knew the answer, frequently giving it is another good sign. If all your upper undergraduate and graduate courses are still huge classes where it's harder for professors to know you, that's a bad sign. Any given school is bad luck but to be rejected from 10+ REUs 2 years in a row with what you claim shows the bad luck is somewhere in your application, and it can only be the recommendations. I assume you had a professor look over statement of purpose and CV so nothing there sticks out as negative and possibly decision tilting.

Given you're in grad school, becoming "better" (however you want to see it) than the students who got into those REUs with respect to research output, conferences, and talks can make you forget about it and wash away the salt. Just don't get too carried away.

[shadow bobcat]

Yale said less than half of the REU participants will come from Yale

[mystic jungle]

Uchicago is a shit REU when it comes to doing research since most students do survey papers on what is already known. I don't know whether this was a factor for the NSF.

[tacit lark]

Its a respected program though. The survey papers are of really high quality from what I’ve heard.

[smoky jetty]

Hmmm

imma still apply to the UChicago REU lmfao

[tacit lark]

Ya its a good program

The surveys probably end up being a lot more useful than more original reu research that ends up in a garbage journal.

[smoky jetty]

https://www.epfl.ch/labs/erg/young-researchers-in-mathematics-program/
Anyone know anything about this?

i.e. is it going to happen this year?

This site says 2023 apps will open soon but then other places say the center is still under construction or something? idk

[smoky jetty]

probably but doing a survey sounds less interesting

at least on the surface

I've never written a proper survey so idk

[tacit lark]

I guess its less exciting

[smoky jetty]

Yea but also I guess it is only 10 weeks or so

idk what research you can really do in that time

[shadow bobcat]

UChicago REU stipend information and housing information is vague though, I'll apply because it's no cost but it doesn't seem super promising

[tacit lark]

What doesnt seem promising?

[shadow bobcat]

The level of support doesn't seem promising (compared to other REUs) I'm not really sure what they mean in the statement about housing if it's provided or if it's out of pocket since assistance is so vague

The program itself seems cool though

I guess since it's mainly for their own students and doesn't have outside funding currently it's not too crazy

[smoky jetty]

I thought it was NSF funded?

[shadow bobcat]

"The program has no promised federal support, and any that might later be
received will be limited to U.S. citizens and permanent residents"

[smoky jetty]

Ah

[chilly turret]

when do decisions from graduate programs typically come back? i applied as soon as the school opened theirs and havnt heard anything at all

[sudden shuttle]

@chilly turret could be early as Feb but typically March-May

[chilly turret]

okay so there’s no need to stress for not knowing anything now?

[torpid echo]

definitely not May

the deadline to accept offers officially is April 15th

I think there's special cases where you can skirt around this, but that's the agreed-upon date by like virtually all US schools

in math at least

[torpid echo]

yes, it's way too early. I heard my earliest decisions like right at the start of Feb

or maybe like Jan 30

[chilly turret]

okay

[tacit lark]

A lot of people hear back by feb to late March

[chilly turret]

and do they typically want the official gre score before making a decision, or do you just send one after they make an offer for them to verify you told the truth on your application

[torpid echo]

If that's part of the requirement for your application, you should be sneding that now

[chilly turret]

i sent it like on december 3rd and the money from ets cleared, but it still hasn’t been updated on my application

they said it would only take like 3-5 days since i did it online but

[raven sun]

This is one of the reasons I didn’t go there. No stipend is an absolute killer to diversity in your program

(Ended up very happy with that decision for other reasons as well, but at the time that was the deciding factor)

[green ice]

im too poor to go to an REU with no stipend ☠️ , not like I could get into Duluth anyways

[green ice]

I think I'll apply to the REU at U-Michigan Anne-Arbor as my safety. I know somebody in my year who got in and they had much less qualifications than I currently do. It seems decent and has a $4800 stipend. I could also apply to the REU at my own university but it has a highly statistical bent and I'm more into pure math. Took two classes in mathematical statistics at my school at the undergrad level and if that's what undergrad stats is then I never want to do it again, just not interesting the way it's approached. Good to know about the library thing though, I'll keep that option in mind also .

[shadow bobcat]

I got offered a summer research position but had to decline because I live 4 hours away and I'm too broke to get a place down there right now

[green ice]

The professors from the master's level classes I took (not that it means much, these classes could honestly pass off for upper level undergrad at higher ranking schools) seem to like me, particularly the manifolds one so doing a summer independent reading with them is an option. Plus I made great grades in these classes.

[rapid dawn]

UHHHH

ok so

the CMU deadline is in 2 hours

I submitted my application

but it says it's incomplete since I haven't uploaded language proficiency test scores

but I'm a native English speaker so they shouldn't be required...

what do I do...

do I literally just upload a blank page that says "I am a native English speaker but your form requires this document"

[green ice]

hmmm sure lol. Maybe you misclicked somewhere in the form and wrote that you weren't a native english speaker too? But I'd start off by doing the thing you suggested and only then going through the time consuming process of double checking what you put

[rapid dawn]

it's through mathprograms.org so there's not really any place to misclick

[green ice]

oh that's weird then

welp if somebody within the next 2 hours comes up with a better idea do that but for now your idea seems good enough given the time constraints

[rapid dawn]

I assume I'm not the only one with this issue

no

the form literally will not let me

[green ice]

Oh if it's my own uni I can easily afford it considering I live at home 10 minutes away from it

Anyways the guy I'm thinking of didn't even have real analysis back then so maybe it's not 100% but it can't be that competitive 🤷‍♂️

meanwhile if I'm lucky enough to not burn out I'll have completed some qual sequences at my school by the time summer starts (though again, these would be upper level undergrad at higher ranking institutions :s)

yeah my manifolds professor actually suggested I join in on an independent reading with 2 2nd year grad students about Heegard Floer homologies (not that I remotely know what that means) next term. I'm a bit hesitant though since he said it'd be fast paced and we'd be black-boxing a lot, but I guess I'm always allowed to take the independent reading class pass-fail

I tried to do some research on it but I don't even know what a homology is yet lol, that comes next term =.=

[torpid echo]

O_o

You should try to just sit in without registering or something

But trying to do Floer homology without knowing homology is…

o_O

[green ice]

Yeeeeah

I thought the same thing

I'll either learn it in my algebraic topology class or abstract algebra class next term so maybe it'd make better for a summer reading

Anyways I have 2 alternative options for an independent reading next term and I figure I should do something since I'm already a junior with no research experience yet. Either something lightweight in cryptography (book he recommended doesn't even assume knowledge of linear algebra) and with a professor emeritus who's functionally retired so he'd have all the time in the world to help me out if I get stuck, or just taking this Riemann geometry class as an independent reading that was being offered but I couldn't take due to a time conflict with this measure theory class I'm taking. I don't feel like the latter would really count as an independent reading class though, and it might honestly be taking on too much given the current classes I'm signed up for

My final alternative is to just not do any independent reading and take a class on C since I low key feel like that'll be more valuable than any math class I take lol

realistically I probably won't attain anything in academia after my PhD so I figure I should be able to code at least at the level of a CS minor, and the CS program at my school has waaaay higher merit imo (although it's still not top ranked or anything)

[ocean kiln]

UChicago admits people from non-top schools for their REU

Not 100% sure why they lost their funding though

I think it might be because they don't have dedicated research projects

And are largely focused on learning new math

[olive crater]

Ok, thanks

[tropic shoal]

Applying to master’s programs now - still hoping some are open

[shell kindle]

A bit late to start now

[tropic shoal]

Yeah I kinda realize lol

Plan was to get a job for a year and then go for a masters but everything is freezing up job wise

[shell kindle]

Yeah the job market for SWE is not great right now

Good luck ~~

[tropic shoal]

Thanks

[undone yacht]

Is it not? As far as I have heard most companies have big problems finding people.

[shell kindle]

Most US tech companies have been doing big layoffs

10k at amazon, 10k at facebook, etc...

[undone yacht]

Ok, yes that is probably true, the positions I was thinking of are probably more SWE+something more, more like RSE

[shell kindle]

Oh yeah

Knowing things remains important

[half meadow]

What's "RSE"?

[shadow bobcat]

Research Software Engineer

[sterile token]

Hi
Is it generally seen as a bad thing for applying to phd programmes if you took a gap year before/after masters

[tepid forum]

no

[stoic jewel]

hi, I want to ask do math programs accept students in spring? I don't really have any specific place I want to apply to so I only Googled several random schools and it seems like they only accept students in the fall. I'm asking this because I made some poor judgements delaying my cs courses and it may cause me to delay my graduation by a semester.

[olive crater]

In the US at least it seems to be the norm for math programs to only have one admission season per year.

[stoic jewel]

oh :(((

I'm not tooo happy about it cuz I'll only have that one cs course to do during that semester

so it's like, wasting an entire year in some sense

[olive crater]

One could hypothetically strengthen their applications quite a bit in terms of research experience during that time, especially if the course load is very small.

[sterile bone]

A lot of schools either don't admit or admit 1-2 students in the spring

[stoic jewel]

that's a fair point. I'm not entirely sure what "research experience" mean though, it doesn't feel like the professors in my institution encourage it(I'm not saying that in a bad way). I've been talking to one of my profs regularly and been coming up with questions about measure theory and I kind of feel like that's hard enough for me

ok, that's good to know

I mean that's not good, but ty

and also, 90% of the professors here are visiting professors and they're only here for a semester or so, and then they go back to their home institution. so it's kind of hard to form a relationship with them/find something valuable to talk to them about, in some sense

[olive crater]

To be honest, I don't have a concrete idea of what "research experience" is either, since I have none myself. But it is one of the best things someone applying to grad school can have, as it can lead to strong letters of recommendation (in general much stronger than those that are a result of simply doing well in a course or two under a professor), as well as publications.

[olive crater]

I guess that if the professor in question can attest to your capabilities by making reference to the effort you made towards the problems you explored, it would be favourable for your application.

[stoic jewel]

tbh rec letters is partly the reasons I started talking to one of my profs regularly, because even though I always wanted to talk to people more I feel like I'm saying stupid things and I just don't go to their office hours lol

yeah, thank you for your response

it just feels like there's some kind of stigma around delaying graduation and stuff like that

[olive crater]

I guess you could try contacting professors outside your institution then?

[stoic jewel]

I have no idea how to do that, and I doubt I have anything valuable to say tbh

[olive crater]

It is a common practice where I am from to mail around 100-200 professors from various places, whose interests match one's own even vaguely.

This makes it likely to get at least one response.

[olive crater]

For people who have decided on their interests already, this would be much less applicable I guess.

[stoic jewel]

sorry could you explain what's the purpose? Do you mean like asking to possibly be their PhD students?

[stoic jewel]

yeah that's what I thought

rn I think I enjoy real analysis the most, but I got the highest grade in real analysis so far, so I'm certainly biased. And I'm 3rd year so I have only done limited courses

[olive crater]

No, short term projects. But then, I am in the second year of my undergraduate studies right now, so this bit may not be that helpful for someone who is this close to graduation. Apologies.

[stoic jewel]

ah okay

I'm 1.5 years till graduation actually

2 years if I postpone it

[stoic jewel]

I've actually never heard of that

[olive crater]

Oh, that seems to be more than enough time for this then.

You will be applying next year right?

[stoic jewel]

it might be a cultural thing. Might be professors here think our courses are enough for us to handle, no need to give us anything else to look forward to

[stoic jewel]

yes ideally

[olive crater]

That could be the case

[stoic jewel]

thank you for the advice 🙂

[olive crater]

welcome

[tacit lark]

Make sure you write a good thoughtful email. Profs complain about getting generic emails obviously sent to many profs. This will get you rejected.

[olive crater]

Yes, of course. I believe mentioning specific reasons for interest in their work, and one's level of background should be sufficient for a first email?

[lusty crater]

what jobs are there for a masters in CS other than software engineer

same for PhD, I would love to teach but life isn’t going to allow me to go round the country to teach, but I’d like to climb the ladder and maybe do remote research. I also don’t want to go for it and just hope I have a job

[half meadow]

There's e.g. security research and project management. Public agencies who don't employ developers of their own need people to write requirements documents and try to prevent vendors from being useless money sinks.

[smoky jetty]

software engineering is a broad broad title

could range from dev ops / infra to just coding

[half meadow]

There's architecture too -- but you'll generally need to prove yourself by writing some actual code before someone will pay you just to be an architect.

[lusty crater]

I know software engineer is a broad title, but it’s still all the same thing in broad reality

I just think in 5 years I’ll hate being a code monkey

So far I’ve liked it for 6 years but eventually everything fades out

oops sorry @half meadow

But I was thinking research is going to be changing what you research every so often that it’ll be refreshing

But also it’s a tough field to get into since you require schooling

Maybe masters with an focus in ml/ai?

But i feel in 2 years it’ll be overflowing with people

[half meadow]

In all the companies I've worked for, "software engineer" has covered a whole spectrum of roles, from "code monkey" to "autonomously figures out there's a problem worth solving, then formulates a solution plan and rallies managers and other engineers to go implement it".

[lusty crater]

fair enough

I’m just scared this area is going to lose my interest and I don’t enjoy my job in the future

But for now the job I have I am happy

[main marlin]

theres a high chance that you have to do the same specific research for 3+ years during PhD tho

esp PhD programs where the money comes from a specific funded project

[quaint girder]

ok

someone pick 5 schools for AG sub top30/20 and located in cities

nice cities too

walkable

[finite isle]

Anyone has any funded master recommendation in Europe? I'll probably apply just for one, but let's see maybe there's something interesting I'm unaware of
Any programme that's oriented towards geometry, topology and analysis (GTA) is fine

[quaint girder]

i dont have passport or visa

cannot pass go

[lethal minnow]

See the masters program at Muenster

[proper dirge]

This one is really cool actually.

you wouldn't happen to know other universities in europe with a operator algebra/fa specialization would you?

[tepid forum]

Oxford, Glasgow, Lancaster, Nottingham, Newcastle. Leeds and KCL have more spectral theory like stuff. And there's someone at Durham doing more computational spectral stuff (Sabine boegli)

I don't know how their masters programs are but defo for PhD

[crimson valve]

https://ncgandtprague.wordpress.com/blog-2/

theres a big group in prague

[proper dirge]

Sweet , thank you ❤️

[crimson valve]

yo guys so

penn state wants junior/senior gpa

here is the issue

i am graduating in the 3rd year

so i guess should i just do my junior year or also add in my sophomore year to the calc

oof

(the penn state people are away for break until after the deadline oops)

[lusty crater]

add your 60-70 credit hour GPA and 90-110

Since you are graduating early you still have those grades

[smoky jetty]

Has anyone here ever switched from a math to a CS PhD or vice versa while in grad school

Like that's usually a very different department so I imagine it's harder than switching advisors.

[tacit lark]

Ya thats definitely harder than switching advisor

Ik a math phd student that is advised by two cs faculty

[smoky jetty]

oh interesting

how does that work?

Some grad students told me that I should have my advisor be in my department when I apply to grad school

[tepid forum]

it doesn't sound like something you should go in intending to do

[tacit lark]

I dont think she intended to do this

I guess she was just interested in the work they do so asked if she can be advised by them

[smoky jetty]

are these CS profs their primary advisors?

[smoky jetty]

yea I'm not, hence the question about switching because I still can't decide what I want to go into

Also what situations should someone get a masters before applying to PHD programs? I'm debating doing a masters in math before applying to PHD but I feel that maybe I would have a strong app just out of undergrad which is why I am asking.

[tacit lark]

Yes

[smoky jetty]

but they're doing a math PHD?

interesting

[tacit lark]

Yes

[lusty crater]

math and cs are very close depending on the field

[smoky jetty]

Yea the areas of CS I'm looking at are extremely close to math

[tacit lark]

Ya they are

[grand palm]

What are the REUs that have funding and accepts international students?

[simple mango]

What’s this channel about

[tepid forum]

masters & phd applications

[serene socket]

In the UK at least, it is possible to attend something called a Centre for Doctoral Training (CDT) in which you undertake general training/broadening courses in your first year (more or less equivalent to a Master's) and then you work on your PhD research for the rest of your project. That's what I'm doing for my PhD

[ivory sleet]

Has anyone had experience with studying abroad for a graduate program as an American, and if so, would you recommend it? I'm sort of wanting to get out of my comfort zone, but I'm not sure if moving away to another country is the way to do that. I'm definitely wanting to leave my city and maybe my home state for this though. Any advice is appreciated

[fierce sigil]

it might be interesting and definitely could be a good choice if you find the right program, but keep in mind that

1. most graduate programs outside the US want you to get a masters first, and will probably not fund you as much for that. in the US you can apply straight to PhD programs in most cases, and then you will be funded
2. grad school is already gonna be a big step outside your comfort zone in many ways, having to adjust to a new country / language in the middle of that might be a lot.

but i do know someone who did it for a funded program, and he's having a good time

[ivory sleet]

Oh yeah, that makes sense. With it being a graduate program, I probably won't be able to do as much exploration than if I was just traveling just as a vacation, which is the main reason I was curious. Thanks

[olive crater]

In grad school applications in the US, letters of recommendation from professors unknown to people on the admission committee are disregarded in general, right?

[torpid echo]

I don’t think they’re disregarded

But it surely isn’t as great as I’d like Jacob Lurie wrote it

[olive crater]

Hmm right. So unless one can expect someone of this level of notability to write a letter, one should in general expect to be rejected right?

[torpid echo]

[candid quarry]

Bruh no

[torpid echo]

Bruh

[candid quarry]

A lot of people get accepted from my uni whose only letter writers are from my uni and no one at my uni is famous

[hearty radish]

Yeah, “famous” doesn’t mean anything unless that professor has some connection with you. Let alone that, I would much rather take a letter from someone who knows me

[tepid forum]

this would more or less mean most/all the recommendation letters of most of the applicants to a given program would be disregarded

so it seems like an "obviously not" : p

[olive crater]

Right, it would make sense that letters from professors who know you personally would be stronger.

[olive crater]

Hmm, graduate applications are quite competitive.

[rapid dawn]

Getting letters from professors who know you well is more important than getting letters from famous people

[half meadow]

That goes both ways. An institution with a policy of only admitting graduate students who are already known by famous researchers would be losing out on a majority of the best applicants.

[rapid dawn]

Also keep in mind that math is a small world. What matters more than fame is how well the admissions committee knows your letter writer. A famous person will definitely be known by the committee but the converse is not true

And as people have said they're not going to disregard a letter just because they don't know the person

[half meadow]

Don't discount what the letter says either. If you apply for a set-theory PhD with a letter from Saharon Shelah saying roughly "um, yeah, this person is an undergrad here, and I'm told they mostly hand in their homework on time", then that's gonna be binned pretty fast.

[rapid dawn]

Yeah definitely

And that's a good example to because (I assume) all the working set theorists who have enough experience in the field to get tenure somewhere good pretty much all know each other anyways

I've heard it's like that in model theory at least

So yeah everyone will know Shelah but also they'll know the set theorist who actually knows you

Also this is why you always ask "can you write me a good letter" instead of "can you write me a letter." The letter writer themself is going to know best whether they know you well enough and are known well enough to write a good enough letter for the places you're applying to.

[smoky jetty]

oh so if I was interested in Europe

I should get a masters in math first?

[fierce sigil]

I would actually push against that. As a grad student you do have a lot of flexibility with how you spend your time, and especially post-covid, where you spend it.

[smoky jetty]

also tbh if you're living there, that's a totally different "exploration" than a 1 week vacation

[fierce sigil]

Europe is a great place to be if you want to travel around a lot, it's cheap by train and hostel / airbnb (personally i've been amazed by how cheap airbnb's are for single rooms in very nice apartments in awesome neighborhoods in europe)

[fierce sigil]

exactly

[smoky jetty]

yea I'm looking at going to France for spring break with some friends and the air bnbs are cheap

[smoky jetty]

I only ask because I think I can pull off a masters (without thesis) in a single semester if I count the graduate level courses I'm taking right now lol

[fierce sigil]

like, i lived in berlin for 2 months for school. that's obviously still different from living somewhere for years. but the leeway to spend my time slowly exploring a massive city and its surroundings, to stake out places that i felt comfortable revisiting, and to build community to go do cool shit with

made it so much more fun

[smoky jetty]

but doing a masters costs money

[fierce sigil]

possibly, but look into this sort of thing. you will CERTAINLY pay a lot less for a masters in europe so if you want to do grad school in europe, you could just do that there

and some masters programs are even funded

[smoky jetty]

true true

[fierce sigil]

it's incredible. i was paying hostel prices for a single room in the nicest neighborhoods of barcelona, basel, genoa, milan, had wonderful hosts who helped me with everything i needed, etc

like 30-40 bucks a night

[smoky jetty]

sounds wonderful

[fierce sigil]

probably tougher if you want to stay for longer periods of time. idk

[smoky jetty]

also as someone younger I'm ok with less than ideal living conditions for a smaller period of time

travelling just me and friends vs travelling with parents is so so so different just for that reason

[smoky jetty]

I mean if I stay on campus for an extra semester, I get to live with my brother for an extra semester which would be quite fun

but yea cost is an issue

[half meadow]

Don't underestimate the amount of bureaucratic hurdles to clear regarding visas and permits. It's not just a matter of getting an institution to accept you; you'll also need to get the civil authorities in the country to allow you to move there for the duration, and they won't necessarily care a lot about the university's favorable opinion of you. In many countries, being a PhD student is a job, so you might need a work permit rather than a study visa ...
It's doable if the right circumstances come together, but it's a near certainty that it will be more stressful than you imagine beforehand.

[tacit lark]

being competitive doesnt mean most apps are discarded lol

[smoky jetty]

Hmmm true I forgot this angle

[smoky jetty]

is there a downside to doing a summer school type thing

rather than an REU

https://www.math.princeton.edu/SummerProgram
I'm looking at this specifically

or maybe this: https://www.ias.edu/pcmi/programs/pcmi-2023-undergraduate-summer-school

but like in general these summer school things instead of an REU

[shadow bobcat]

Personally I'm applying to both

REUs and summer programs

[smoky jetty]

I'm debating if I should apply to both lol

oh true, that first part is a deal breaker

I need letters for grad school 😭

[shadow bobcat]

Applying is free so I have no qualms

Yeah Park City location seems really cool

[smoky jetty]

I don't wanna bother my letter writers

but then it would take away from the research I do at an REU

I would rather die than be stuck at my uni over the summer

no offense to UIUC but it's the middle of nowhere

[shadow bobcat]

For me I'm already working on a research project at my school so the summer school isn't too bad because I can just work on that

[smoky jetty]

what makes it great are the people and there aren't people over the summer

that's a last ditch resort lol

hm fair but if I don't get into an REU then what are the chances I get into one of these lol

[shadow bobcat]

Yeah it's free to apply so apply to as much as you want

[smoky jetty]

also side note cause I am looking for stuff

but I wish there was a CS equivalent to mathprograms.org

so annoying finding CS stuff

fair

[olive crater]

I see, thanks.

[smoky jetty]

7 REU apps submitted (so far)
ty to this channel for all the help 😎

[polar dirge]

don’t most of them not open until January @smoky jetty

[simple mango]

ppl at your place are famous tho

[tacit lark]

I went to a low ranked undergrad and we have students that went to harvard, michigan, cornell, berkeley for PhD. So ya you dont need famous recommenders.

[tacit lark]

I spammed like 20 apps lol

[simple mango]

I never applied for foreign unis, no idea how it goes

but apparently GRE conductors made a huge fuck up this time around

their paper could not pass through the customs in time so the exam got cancelled lmao

that too at the day of exam

lo like ppl had to travel across the country to give the exam

[tacit lark]

The gre isnt that important

Unless other parts of your app are lacking

[simple mango]

can't really comment on that

[tacit lark]

My friend last year got into ucsd without the gre and they required it lol

[simple mango]

well it was a fuckup nonetheless

[olive crater]

They may have had famous recommenders even while being from a 'low ranked' institution right?

[candid quarry]

A lot of them left CMI, but anyway the AG people are more notable and none of my recommenders are AG people

[simple mango]

[olive crater]

By CMI do you mean Chennai Mathematical Institute? Isn't that one of the most well-known mathematics institutions globally?

[candid quarry]

Ye, not among the most well known lol

[simple mango]

well known in India definitely

[candid quarry]

It is somewhat known for AG

[simple mango]

all they do is AG😪

[candid quarry]

But one AG person died and one left for another uni

[olive crater]

Are you from India?

[simple mango]

ye

[olive crater]

Ok

[tacit lark]

I know they dont since i know them. Most low ranked schools dont have famous people.

You can get a famous letter from an REU i guess. But most REUs dont have famous people participating. They may have well known/respected people though.

[olive crater]

Ohk, what I meant to say was along the lines of them publishing papers with famous professors from other universities, rather than implying that the famous profs were at their own institution.

[smoky jetty]

Alot of them are open rn

[smoky jetty]

Publishing papers as an undergrad is already great, regardless of who you publish with

Saying you must publish with someone famous before you even enter grad school is a super super high bar

Basically no one meets that bar

[gritty ruin]

I didn’t publish anything before grad school.

[lethal minnow]

One of my profs mentioned that CMI is dying out and losing funds

IMSc virtually feels like a theoretical physics hub now, the mathematicians are too few

[smoky jetty]

I have a question about how people got into some of the higher level areas of mathematics. I feel I'm much more ahead on math than the average undergrad (at least in algebra). However I'm not going to be able to take a course in commutative algebra or algebraic number theory until grad school, and I'm not going to be able to take a course in algebraic topology until the spring of my senior year after I submit PHD apps

So how is someone like me supposed to determine if that's what they want to research in grad school?

Or how is someone who hasn't been able to take all the math that I've taken so far supposed to determine what math they want to do in grad school?

[subtle knoll]

sorry man

[smoky jetty]

hmmm so even if you apply straight to phd

in like a statement of purpose or whatever

you don't have to talk about any of that stuff?

like "oh I'm interested in [these fields] because of [reasons]?"

can you be more broad?

[olive crater]

Oh ok

[tawny hearth]

yeah grad committees know that not everyone knows what they want to do, it’s sufficient to just say what you like about the fields of math you’ve seen so far and why you’re interested in them. i think it’s mainly important to demonstrate you know what you’re getting into, that you’re applying for a research degree not an extended education

there’s a reason that most math phd programs in the US don’t force you to come in with an advisor (unlike most other STEM fields) - undergrads have only seen a small segment of the classical mathematical canon so they’re not expected to know what they want to research

[smoky jetty]

Oh I thought math phd programs asked you to come in with an advisor like CS lol

[tawny hearth]

not in the US at least

[smoky jetty]

Gotcha

[tawny hearth]

in programs where they want a masters first like Europe things may be different

[smoky jetty]

this is what I get for really only talking to CS grad students >_>

[tawny hearth]

haha make sense

[smoky jetty]

ok that makes more sense though if that's the norm

also hmmmmm if I wanna do grad school in Europe then I guess I'm going to have to look at the feasibility of a masters

[tawny hearth]

i’d definitely suggest looking at faculty webpages and naming a few faculty you’d be interested in in your statement of purpose. look for ones who seem to be taking on students (ie no emeritus faculty)

[smoky jetty]

Right of course

[green ice]

I kind of wish I could just apply for an extended education, I feel like there's so much to math that I'm still missing. Though that feeling will probably never go away given how broad math is these days :s.

Idk at beast so far I can say I know a little bit of functional analysis, rudimentary manifolds, some set point topology, and some galois theory. Everything I did before that didn't feel like real math lol. And my current school wants me to graduate a year early. I'm already pushing it by taking 3-4 graduate courses and maaaaybe an independent reading next term instead of just finishing up my 2 remaining gen eds

Either graduate early or they're fine with me taking on an entirely different major/minors but noooo taking more math classes is a no-go =.=

[tawny hearth]

the first year of grad school gets you up to speed quickly haha, i felt a similar way (about wanting to learn much more) but I learned a ton the first year. I also think once you start settling into a field of math you like, you realize there’s plenty of math to learn within your field and the fear of missing out on other areas starts to fade away

very few people can be generalists these days, specificity is part of the job description

[green ice]

Hopefully that's the case. I took 3 qual sequence courses this term at this school and so far I havent felt like I've learned a ton but maybe the second half of them (which I'm signed up for next term) will change that . Also as somebody who missed out on math competitions due to crippling Adhd and a host of other mental issues not diagnosed or treated until college it feels kinda weird to know more advanced math but not being able to solve high school problems lol

[tawny hearth]

are you taking a regular undergrad credit load (like 5+ courses per semester?) my experience is that it’s hard to learn grad level material when you’re taking more than 3 classes, there’s just not enough time to sit down and solve problems and think deeply about the material

[green ice]

Yeah I took 5 courses

[tawny hearth]

in grad school you (surprisingly) might have more time

[green ice]

You're right that I didn't get a lot of time to really internalize the material :s, but I actually made my best grades ever this term lol, probably cause it's been my most psychologically stable term ever

Got 4 A+s and an A 🥳, but I already barely remember what I learned except for maybe the stuff in functional analysis

[tawny hearth]

nice!!!

[green ice]

Thanks! Like, I know grad classes have more lenient grading too but my pdoc upped my Adderall and gave me some anxiety meds at the start of the term and the anxiety meds in particular kept me relativily chill at times when I would've had breakdowns in the past, and also lowered stress-induced procrastination greatly. So I could work to an extent I never could've before. That's on top of the antidepressants and mood stabilizers I'd been put on before this term. It's been a long journey :/ but I feel like I'm finally making progress towards a point where I can express my fullest potential :D.

Now I just kind of wish I could redo all of high school and undergrad with this attitude lol

[worthy apex]

Is anyone applying to the University of Rochester? If so, does anyone know what the guidelines they have for their statements of purpose are? The application itself only says "Please refer to the Instructions for details regarding school and program specific requirements", and I can't find anything about it on the math department website

[rapid dawn]

how big of a difference even is there between famous and well-respected

it's not like a fields medal makes you better at writing rec letters

[jovial field]

(i'm not applying there, but i'm looking online to try and help)
for some other departments at rochester, this information seems to be on the department website graduate information page, but the math department page is very scant, which is worrying. you might want to email [e-mail] , who is listed as the contact

[worthy apex]

I am scared of emailing strangers so I will wait until the absolute last possible minute to do so

Mostly I just want to know if it's meant to be 1000 words or 500 words; different schools have different word count limits.

[jovial field]

isn't the application due in like, 4 days?

[crimson valve]

some places dont specify word limits

in which case i just send my default in

[jovial field]

i don't think you can be blamed for how long it is if the information is not available anywhere.

[worthy apex]

Yeah, that makes sense. I'll probably just adjust my Cornell or Michigan statement and change around professor's names.

[raven sun]

Eep I am not sure how carefully I checked between 1k or 500

most places that have 1 are 1k and most places with 2 are 500 I thinkish?

[jovial field]

the phyics department at rochester has some information about SOP but does not specify a world limit for example

good luck

[worthy apex]

In that case I'll assume it's a generic "try to keep it concise but we're not stingy about the wordcount".

[rapid dawn]

my professor told me to aim for roughly/no more than 2 pages when a specific length isn't given

[worthy apex]

👍

[rapid dawn]

my generic statement is ~1200 words if that helps

and then I have a ~350 word generic teaching and diversity statement

and I basically just cut and paste stuff from both statements depending on what specific information is asked for. For instance some programs say to include stuff about teaching, diversity, personal background, etc and some don't

[olive crater]

But this is something that must be done to get into grad school without a perfect GPA right?

[smoky jetty]

no

idk where you keep getting these ideas

but I would stop looking there since clearly that place isn't doing anything except setting unrealistic standards

I think maybe just half of the grad students I know, if not less, published anything in undergrad

let alone with someone "famous"

even with less than perfect GPAs

[tropic shoal]

Says you

smh

[smoky jetty]

Yes I am lucky to be doing undergraduate research

but I would not say my research advisor is "famous" (and he wouldn't say so either)

he's great and he's been an invaluable mentor to me

[tropic shoal]

You are famous

[smoky jetty]

?

[tropic shoal]

I seen you in that space movie

Idk what I’m doing I’m just joshin you

Shoutout to Josh- I need to work on my apps lol

Do masters apps need high school transcripts?

[chilly turret]

for my own sake i hope not

i don’t know how they can expect that at all

your whole perspective on grad school requirements seems really unrealistic though in my opinion

[raw quail]

Not only unrealistic but unhealthy

Graduate admissions are a minefield of exceptions at best but really just down right inconsistent, it's neither productive nor healthy to compare yourself to some ethereal (and probably incorrect!) standard of "person who gets into grad school." If you want to take Yourself down then you can do so elsewhere, but that kind of thinking will not be entertained here.

[vestal swan]

I feel like “graduate level” courses also differ across countries and schools. I know there are certain universities that teach Galois theory at the undergraduate level while my university teaches it as a graduate level course

[chilly turret]

what would a typical resume of an applicant who was offered a teacher assistantship contain? or is that too broad of a question

[gritty ruin]

I mean, at Berkeley if you are accepted into grad school (for math), you're guaranteed a TA position

[deep lily]

I'm applying to Cambridge, the application doesn't have a place for personal statement but it has a section about Career goals and another for Reasons for applying. In the reasons for applying section I mentioned my specific interests giving examples of what I find interesting and talked about why I want to study in cambridge. Is there anything else i need to mention there? Like managing while facing challenges... Also I don't have research experience yet but as a part of the Ug curriculum I'll be writing my dissertation this semester, so should I mention that?

[tepid forum]

you should mention what courses you'd be interested in doing and why you're prepared for them

if you can write about your dissertation do that, if you can link facing challenges to being able to digest stuff quickly or manage a large workload then put that too

career goals for me was trying to get as many words as possible out of "I want to do a PhD and become a professor" (as it would be for most ppl applying)

[tepid forum]

or what work you're doing to bridge gaps and so on

[tacit lark]

Most ( basically all) reputable programs guarantee funding for some number of years (maybe not summer). This funding is usually from TAing, research assistantship, or fellowship.

[chilly turret]

so every graduate student gets some sort of additional duty

[smoky jetty]

do research assistantships have extra duty?

If you're doing a PHD then you're doing research right?

Then research assistentship wouldn't be extra duty?

but that's just semantics really

what is a fellowship btw. I hear that word tossed around but idk what it means

[half meadow]

Generally a fancy word for scholarship.

[tacit lark]

Sometimes you get funded to join someones research project but it may not be your main project or may not align with your thesis goals you do it for funding

[tacit lark]

It depends but ya most math students have to TA for funding

[smoky jetty]

oh

[tacit lark]

This is more of an applied ( i dont even think applied math but like applied cs)

[smoky jetty]

ah. Like from an external source or within your university?

[half meadow]

Yeah.

[smoky jetty]

I had this happen for funding last semester lol. Kind of crashed and burned that second research project but that's a separate story which I won't talk about here >_>

[half meadow]

"Research assistantship" is a bit of a catch-all term. In the experimental sciences there's a need for assistants to do grunt work in the lab which doesn't necessarily teach you anything advanced enough to count as PhD training.
In more theoretical field like mathematics, I think it is just as common to be merely an accounting category -- if you have a research grant which according to the funding body's rules can't be used for supporting PhD students but can be used to hire lab assistants, then you can hire your PhD students as assistants to do whatever they'd be doing anyway.

Or if the department hosts a conference, a lot of the practical footwork can be farmed off to research assistants.

[tacit lark]

Most of the time RA mean your advisor is funding you to work on research more

[chilly turret]

what would a typical TAship look like? what would you be in charge of and what would the responsibilities be

[tropic shoal]

Mine? I was mostly meming

Or did someone’s messages get deleted or something

[tacit lark]

I think they’re talking about knightwatch

Who consistently makes ridiculous statements regarding grad school admissions

[tropic shoal]

Fair the message above asked about if high school transcripts are required for masters apps and i don’t think that’s unreasonable

[tepid forum]

i wasn't asked for any transcripts or anything else

iirc A&M asked me what my high school was but no details

apparently no-one from my HS applied to A&M before which ig isn't a surprise

[tacit lark]

They should ask for your transcripts…

[tepid forum]

HS transcripts?

none of them asked though i did have them at hand

[tropic shoal]

Which masters apps are still open lol - I’m really late on this train

[tacit lark]

Not high school. You just said they didnt ask for your transcripts.

[tepid forum]

oh i meant high school transcripts [since that was the q]

obvs they asked for my uni transcripts : p

[chilly turret]

i wasn’t asked for hs transcripts either

[mystic jungle]

Knightwatch is unrealistic but I think their ideas are closer to the truth than waving your arms around and saying nothing can be known. The idea of guessing admission likelihood from application statistics, courses, and letters certainly needs more realism and data. It would be nice if colleges post a "typical admitted student" profile to see who you're competing against.

[olive crater]

Right, while the extent of subjectivity in the process certainly does make it tempting to call grad school admissions a 'crapshoot', and I do acknowledge the role that luck plays, the fact remains that if you look at an applicant's 'stats' like their publications, GPA, major GPA, coursework, undergrad institution, maybe even letter writers, and so on, one can certainly make at least an informed comparison between them and the profiles of people admitted to X university.

Although for international applicants, it may be tougher to make this comparison, especially when looking at universities that people from their undergraduate institution or similar undergraduate institutions in their home country have not gone to in recent years.

[olive crater]

There are certain websites that do provide anonymous profile stats along with where those people got accepted, although the claims made there are not verifiable.

Although frequenting those websites may not really be the best decision, for reasons elaborated upon by quite a few people on the server...

[tepid forum]

I think this is all a bit moderated from what you were saying earlier :p

[tacit lark]

wow knightwatch is coser to the truth than saying nothing can be known. That says a lot!!

[vague gazelle]

What does it take to get into graduate programs as someone who is self-taught without undergrad?

[tepid forum]

unfortunately unless you're prodogical and ready to drop a proof to a millenium problem it's probably to obtain some kind of respectable undergrad qualification as cheaply/quickly (whichever matters more to you, I would guess you would need at least 2 years of time however you do it) as possible

US-style degrees might not be ideal if you know you just want to do math

[vague gazelle]

My interest is cryptography, I've had a blast working through the cryptopals puzzles and especially enjoyed attacking repeating key xor using statistics so I'm looking at the intersection of math and computer science

[tepid forum]

whats your motivation for a phd/masters?

[vague gazelle]

I would like to do research and the companies I've applied to are all like 50% PHDs. I've gotten through the application process for a few but there is always a "better candidate"

[tepid forum]

idk anything about cryptography but getting that far in application processes without a degree sounds pretty/extremely impressive

still idk if it's feasible to skip an undergrad degree altogether

[vague gazelle]

I do enjoy a good puzzle

[tepid forum]

unless you did end up getting a job in industry and had a ton of industrial experience, ig

[vague gazelle]

Ha yeah the foot in the door would be sufficient

[smoky jetty]

You might have more luck asking about this on the CryptoHack discord (DM me for an invite if you don't have it)

Since a number of people there are cryptography PHDs / a couple work in industry

[vague gazelle]

Thanks, DM'd

[mighty terrace]

That’s crazy

[smoky jetty]

what is funding like for a thesis-based masters in math?

I'm debating doing that instead of a PhD first (cause less commitment) but if funding isn't a possibility like a PhD then I don't think I can do it

[shadow bobcat]

Few and far between

[smoky jetty]

Any advice for finding places to apply to?

[chilly turret]

what is the difference between a thesis track and a no thesis track for a masters in math? the school i’m apply to has both but i couldn’t find the differences aside from how many credits from each level of courses

is like a thesis something that will help you going into a phd program?

[shadow bobcat]

https://jlmartin.ku.edu/~jlmartin/masters.html

https://www.profellow.com/fellowships/fully-funded-ma-and-ms-programs-in-math/

I don't necessarily recommend this though as I've heard it can harm your chances especially if you were a stronger undergrad application. Afaik you can always drop out of a PhD and have your masters provided you complete whatever requirements are listed

[chilly turret]

the university i applied to is listed on there

[smoky jetty]

Yea that's what I'm thinking

[tacit lark]

Canada

[tacit lark]

Ask faculty you know and look up schools

Princeton and cornell have a funded masters in cs

Your better off doing a phd if thats your end goal.

[quaint girder]

should i have something school specific every personal statement

[past plume]

A little bit yeah

[tacit lark]

^

[inner grove]

UC Santa Barbara has a funded MS in math

[inner grove]

It's rare to find at PhD granting institutions. I went to California State University, Long Beach

it wasn't "technically" funded, but I was granted scholarships to attend

[undone yacht]

Depends on where you want to do a Ph.D., in Sweden a M.Sc. is a requirement when applying to start doing a Ph.D..

[inner grove]

But there's only 1 slot per year?

[smoky jetty]

Yea this is my debate lol

I think really I need to figure out potential schools lol

[undone yacht]

if you want to go into academia, my experience is that it is better the longer a phd takes (for example many countries it is 3 years, and in some 5 years, the people from 5 year institutions are so much more competitive since they have more publications and comparison is pretty much "time after phd", nobody cares how long it took)

[tacit lark]

Id only apply to masters abroad where there is funding

[shadow bobcat]

I feel like the abroad funding for masters always feels kinda fuzzy plus you need a work visa

[daring osprey]

how do you get funding for masters? Isnt that just for Phd and postdocs?

[tepid forum]

in the UK it's basically only Oxbridge that gives out many scholarships for masters (that aren't for a very specific group of people)

[daring osprey]

no wayyy werent u in that olympiad maths forum

[smoky jetty]

Depends on the need of the university

[tepid forum]

i do recognise you from that server

i never did olympiads was just friends with ppl who did

[smoky jetty]

So like here at UIUC, I was talking to a grad student and he said if I did a masters here there is a good chance I could get a TAship

Just cause they need more TAs in some classes

But of course if the university has more than enough PhD students then they'll just use them

That's my understanding at least