🔒 Is Python for me?

[sly eagle]

Hi. New to Discord. Really missing old-fashioned online user forums. FInd the Discord chat really hard to follow.

I have been away from coding for like 15 years, and have a project / business I want to complete before I die.

It was written in MAMP, but is so old I think it's a fool's errand to finihs that old code.

I want to learn modern coding and be a good and efficient coder - good enough to make $100,000/year.

Many many years ago I looke dinto Python because I felt it would make me a better coder and be easier to learn than Java or C++ but better than PHP.

My main problem with PHP 5 was that I feel it made me a poor coder because you write HTML/PHP spaghetti code.

My main problem is that I do NOT have 5-10 years to learn anything - will be dead by them.

I am good at business logic, just really out-of-shape coding, and am hoping there is a way for me to write a modern website and not have it take years.

Not sure if that makes sense?

[dense surge]

@sly eagle

Python help channel opened

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Closes after a period of inactivity, or when you send !close.

[civic jackal]

You could make a modern website in Python pretty quickly, yeah. Your major options are Django, Flask, and FastAPI.

Django is more "everything built-in", Flask is more lightweight and has you choose solutions to problems from the community of addons, FastAPI is geared towards writing APIs, great if you're going to write your frontend in something like React or Vue.

[latent drift]

a small devils advocate: modern php (e.g. laravel) is nothing compared to what people did in the past.

[sly eagle]

Can I go deeper in the conversation here?

[civic jackal]

Sure

[sly eagle]

(There is a reward in Heaven for anyone who can help)

[latent drift]

it's your thread 🙂 go as deep as people are willing to follow

[sturdy hemlock]

Broadly: tech is bigger than 'coding'. A lot of career changers can get a foot in the door with adjacent jobs like QA and Help Desk and Ops.

[sly eagle]

(I lost everything because of the pandemic, and I am in my 50's and age-discrimination is VERY REAL

[coarse trench]

one opinion i have is that it is possible to obtain employable python skills in (possibly significantly) less than 5 years, if you are motivated

[sly eagle]

I feel like getting my old website and startup idea going is my only hope for long-term survival

So when I say this is life-or-death I'm not kidding and I don't want to die

Can I maybe introduce myself first to help all of you help me?

[sturdy hemlock]

This isn't a forum for emotional support. We can answer with our opinions about careers and learning, but this isn't a place for deeper questions and issues like this.

[sly eagle]

I am here for IT advice - not emotional support

[sturdy hemlock]

Yup, just saying the life or death stuff is a bit too heavy for here

[sly eagle]

But you can't solve a problem if you don't know the problem which is what I am trying to explain

I'm trying to provide some context

The website I wrote is like 60,000 lines of code

And if it was 2005 when the world used desktops and laptops it would be fine

[sturdy hemlock]

Yah, just tone down the life or death part please. You're just looking for: how to land a job in tech after an extended break, and with the challenge of age discrimination, right?

[sly eagle]

But the reality is that almsot NO ONE uses computers anymore

[sly eagle]

Wrong

I am back to work ater 4 years off in a crappy IT contract, and I fear that when it ends I am done - not because of lack of skill but because of my age

As mentioned, I feel that starting my own business is the way to go

I dont need business advice because I have a good idea

[sturdy hemlock]

I have started businesses, and I'm not quite your age but close enough, fwiw.

[sly eagle]

But I also have a website that is 85% done and would be great in 2010 but not in 2024

[sly eagle]

Good to know!

So as much as it apins me, I think finishing my 60,000 lines of code is a fool's errand

(A "sunk cost" for any business types)

The conundrum is that I don't have 5-10 years to become a "modern" programmer or go back to school

I think learning the newest versions of HTML and CSS and mobile design shouldn't be too back for me

[latent drift]

I mean, depending on what that website does (if anything), making it work for mobile phones, is mostly a matter of applying responsive frontend styling. But not sure how that relates to python.

[sly eagle]

And presumably my years of database experience are still relevant - in fact I can probably keep my MySQL back end

But here is where Pythin DOES or DOES NOT come into play....

[sturdy hemlock]

What does the app do? Whats your backend?

[sly eagle]

In theory, that is correct

[sly eagle]

Online newpaper / Online community / Ecommerce

Think a combination of the New York Times + old-school online forum + Online store

Nothing fancy

[latent drift]

so... a blog, a forum, and a shop? 😄

[sturdy hemlock]

Not sure changing backends would really matter then, you're primarily front end and database, the backend is mostly shuffling data back and forth then

[sly eagle]

Yes, you could say that

Here is my thinking....

I think I need to scrap my front-end code because it is built on - forget the name - but a 3-column design

I think I need a whole new design paradigm for the front end - something that fits on an iPhone and scrolls, not something for 13" displays

In theory all of my data architecture hasnt changed

But the problem is that my HTML/CSS/PHP looks like a pile of ______

Probably mostly my fault, but combined with PHP5 everything is intertwined

This may sound like a contradiction, but....

1.) I am a GOOD at writing business logic

2.) I don't think I am as good at writing CLEAN CODE as I should be

And I am old enough that I never learned OOP 😭

So my thinking is that if I have to scrap all of my UI, why not use a better coding language and become a better coder

[latent drift]

take a look at responsive frameworks like bootstrap (and what else there is)

[sly eagle]

(Time = $$$, and even if my current website was online, it is so inefficient that that in and of itself will eventually burn me)

I need to get to a point of where I have a new idea for my business / website and should be able to code it in a weekend or so - not in 6 months

So I was wondering if maybe Python would make me a better coder as I think Python is a more structrued langage, right?

[sturdy hemlock]

Almost nobody can do that.

[sly eagle]

How so?

[latent drift]

the language hardly matters. PHP can have very structured code. Python can have very messy code.

[sly eagle]

I think my website took me like 7-8 years to code and was 60,000 lines of (inefficient) code and like 85% done when the pandemic started and I lost my job

[sly eagle]

But PHP 5 didnt use string typing, and but its very nature tricked you into not separating the presentation layer from the business logic and backed

[sturdy hemlock]

Production web apps aren't built in a weekend... it takes time and iteration, and often multiple people with different skill sets

[sly eagle]

I am proud of my website, but the reality is that it is DATED and TOO HARD to MAINTAIN

[sly eagle]

Not entire web apps - I meant a "module" (e.g. online survey, user comments, search feature, etc)

My dream has always been to learn component architecture where my UI is separate from my functions and logic and database

So is a Python a good choose - because I don't think most epople take PHP seriously - even if it rules the Internet

I think in my situation learning C++, C#, Java, etc is too hard

[sturdy hemlock]

Python is a fine choice, with a relatively good 'effort to result' curve

[sly eagle]

But when I first looked at Pythin like 7 years ago, it seems like a good way to finally learn OOP and become a better developer?

Even if I pick up with my current PHP code base, it is sooooo old, that I would still have to re-write most of it in a newer version of PHP, right?

[sturdy hemlock]

Python is a good choice because it's very versatile and has a large support community

[sly eagle]

So maybe now it a good time to turn over a new leaf?

[sturdy hemlock]

It's fair, but I don't know anything about how PHP has changed over the years

Perhaps you don't need to and easier to focus on a different problem rather than rewriting your backend. Very much depends on what problems are important to you.

[sly eagle]

And to be clear, I think I have to make this comproise... Hurry up and try to code a basic mobile version of my website to display static news articles. THEN, try to learn Python (?) and start adding INTERACTIVE features like: Registration, Logging In, User Preferences, Database-Driven COntent, etc

[sly eagle]

True, but sometimes starting fresh in life is easier. For example, should I spend 6 months getting my head into o-so-great PHP code, or in the same time take my business ideas and write BETTER code in something like Python?

[sturdy hemlock]

Yup, both paths have their pros and cons.

[sly eagle]

And that is the technical issue which I need the most help with... 1.) Is Python doable enough that I could pick it up in a a couple months and have a basic webiste up-and-running with basic user features like registration, log-in, profiles, etc? 2.) Will switching to Pythin create a hosting nightmare where now I have to become a System Administrator and learn how to compile code and in a worst case have to run my own server?

(I know the basics of WHM and cPanel and in the past used either shared hosting or at one point had my own VPS. So how odes Pythin fit into all of that?)

[latent drift]

python is definitely harder to setup than php.. you can't just dump a python file onto the webspace and expect it to run, like you do with php

[sly eagle]

(Sorry my fingers are rebelling and keep typing "Pythin" and not "PYTHON"!!!!)

[latent drift]

(better than Pythong 😉 )

[sly eagle]

That is another thing that has changed over the years - web hosting

[latent drift]

not for php 😛

[sly eagle]

Finding a reliable U.S.-based web host with U.S. support and NON-cloud solutions is very hard to find

I fired my last VPS web host beause of crappy support

For what I am doing, I would say I need a Managed VPS where I have more control, but have the safety guards of a qualified web host helping secure things

So if I re-wrote my backend code in Pythin, then what would that entail as far as hosting my website on a VPS?

(I thought a lot of web hosts now offer cPanel/Pythin hosting?)

[latent drift]

not sure about any control panels... I have a general feeling though that most python hostìng is likely to be setup more manual via terminal, or through git like with Heroku... not sure though, as I mostly run it on cheap root vps myself.

[sly eagle]

So is that going to be the deal-breaker for me?

[latent drift]

I don't know

[sly eagle]

I am not a Linux administrator

[latent drift]

I found Heroku fairly simple. With python you likely need to develop locally anyway (using a local python server - most python webframeworks offer something like that), and then use Git to commit and push to heroku to make it live.

[sly eagle]

Right now I use MAMP for my local web server and I use NetBeans for my local IDE

Then I used Transmit to SFTP (?) to my VPS when I was running LAMP

So what could I use as a local webserver and IDE on my MacBook Pro for Python?

[latent drift]

python. Most webframeworks come either with a built-in small development webserver, or their docs have instructions on how to run such a thing locally

well the database needs to run separatedly

[sly eagle]

MAMP allows you to have a PHP webserver and MySQL database server plus phpMyAdmin which is a UI to work with MySQL all in one

Anything like that for Python?

[latent drift]

I know

not really? I mean you can just keep mamp around and use phpmyadmin for that, and just use a python mysql driver to connect to the mysql server that's part of mamp

(I usually use my IDEs (PyCharm) built-in database tools to connect to the database and inspect it)

[sly eagle]

Do you use MySQL? How do you interact with it?

[latent drift]

not with any python project at the moment. But with python you can use the mysql-connector library, for direct queries.. or maybe sqlalchemy if you fancy an ORM (there are many other ways to achieve that)

[sly eagle]

Actually, I just found this...

[latent drift]

or with django, a python webframework, you get an ORM inclusive.

[sly eagle]

Python is a widely used high-level, general-purpose, interpreted, dynamic programming language. MAMP PRO installs Python in your “/Applications/MAMP/Library/bin/python” directory. MAMP PRO does not make any changes to the Python build that is pre-installed on your Mac. The Python build provided by Apple is installed in “/usr/bin/python”.

https://documentation.mamp.info/en/MAMP-PRO-Mac/Settings/Languages/Python/

What are the versions of Python, and which should I learn if I decide to go with Python?

[latent drift]

not higher than 3.12

(I say that because 3.13 was recently released, and 3rd party libraries are likely not yet compatibly)

[civic jackal]

and not lower than 3.9 (iirc)

[latent drift]

3.10 and 3.11 are perfectly fine

[sly eagle]

Wasn't there a big fork back in the day between like Python 2 vs Python 3?

[latent drift]

no.

python3 changes were large and troublesome, that caused lot's of issues, but there was never a "fork"

and python2 is now end-of-life (2020)

[sly eagle]

Wrong term maybe

Sidee question: Which version of MySQL is acceptable?

[latent drift]

the newest?

[sly eagle]

But I assume MySQL 8.x is okay, right? (I know that MAMP never offered anything above MySQL 5.7 which I believe would be considerd a security issue)

[latent drift]

probably depends on the connector version

(assuming you use mysql-connector)

https://dev.mysql.com/doc/connector-python/en/connector-python-versions.html

[sly eagle]

Dumb question, but does Pythin use Apache?

[latent drift]

so yea, 8.0 seems fine with python 3.9+

python is independent of the webserver

(php technically as well, you can run it with any webserver that supports fastcgi)

[sly eagle]

Can you please explain how a language like Python works compared to PHP?

[latent drift]

in web context?

[sly eagle]

I'm used to having Apache serve up your raw .php files

[latent drift]

php is file-based... you open a file in the browser, the webserver parses and excecutes that file.

[sly eagle]

In terms of how you go from a Python file to an end user viewing a webpage. Like you have to "compile" C++ and Java, right?

[latent drift]

python is constantly serving an app in the background, that accepts requests through the "Web Server Gateway Interface" (WSGI).

(which in essence is just a function on the python side)

[sly eagle]

Is Python a "compiled" language?

[latent drift]

so one obvious difference appears: with python, you can't just upload a new/updated file and expect it to take effect. you have to restart the python web app first.

not compiled as C/C++ ...

it's compiled to byte code and that is interpreted by the python virtual machine.

(similar to php opcode I guess)

[civic jackal]

but the compilation process isn't something you need to care about. as far as you know it's an internal detail of the standard Python interpreter.

[sly eagle]

Sounds like Java actually, right?

It's been 20+ years since I studied this briefly, but Java is source code to byte code right?

[latent drift]

yes.

C# as well. many languages do that in fact

[sly eagle]

In my current (former) workflow, I code text files (.php) in Netbeans, then I launch then in MAMP to see them in my browser, then I use Transmit to upload to the web host

[latent drift]

php as well. it's called Zend Engine 😉

[sly eagle]

What would a new workflow look like for me?

[latent drift]

well, depends on the framework you use.. but the general gist is, that you run a local dev server, that supports automatic reloading when it sees changes in your python files, and you use your browser as well as normal.

[sly eagle]

But to your earlier point, I would have to yo-yo the webserver every time I have a code update?

(in PROD)

[latent drift]

that's what it looks like with a simple flask app in pycharm.
main.py file content in the top,
and in the bottom I'm essentially running the command python main.py (pycharm uses full paths)

[latent drift]

yes, though that depends on the hoster.

[sly eagle]

BTW, I really appreciate all of the help so far today

This is exactly what I need to figure out how to salvage my website, my career, and my life

So THANK YOU for the help so far!

[latent drift]

👍

[sly eagle]

Here is what MAMP's website says...

MAMP Pro 7.1.3

Apache 2.4.58
Nginx 1.25.3
MySQL 5.7.44 & 8.0.35
MySQL Shell 8.0.35
MySQL Utilities 1.6.5
MailHog & mhsendmail 1.0.1 & 0.2.0
PHP 7.1.33, 7.2.34, 7.3.33, 7.4.27, 8.1.29, 8.2.20 & 8.3.8
apcu 5.1.20
Xdebug 2.9.0, 2.9.8, 3.0.4, 3.1.2 & 3.3.2
Python 3.11.4
mod_wsgi 3.5 & 4.9.4
mod_python 3.5.0
phpMyAdmin 4.9.11 & 5.2.1
phpLiteAdmin 1.9.8-2
Freetype 2.6.5
OpenSSL 1.1.1u
libevent 2.1.12
memcached/libmemcached 1.6.12 (1.5.22 (intel))/1.0.18
memcached for PHP 3.1.5
memcache for PHP 4.0.5.2 & 8.0
Redis/phpredis 6.2.6/4.3.0
t1lib 5.1.2
curl 7.76.1
jpeg 9c
libpng 1.6.37
tiff 4.1.0
gd 2.3.3
Ghostscript 9.55.0
ImageMagick 7.1.0-23
Imagick 3.7.0
PHPUnit 8.5.19 & 9.5.8
libbz2/libz/libzip 1.0.8/1.2.11/1.10.0
ICU 56.1 (Unicode 8.0)
libxml2 2.10.3
libxslt 1.1.29
gettext 0.20.1
libidn 1.41
iconv 1.17
mcrypt 2.5.8
OAuth 2.0.7
YAZ 5.16.0
PHP/YAZ 1.2.3
YAML 0.2.5
PHP/YAML 2.1.0, 2.2.1 & 2.2.2
Bison 3.2.4

[latent drift]

mod_wsgi
that's the important part

[sly eagle]

Because I am more comfortable using MAMP, would that work for me in the beginning for DEV?

[latent drift]

you can, but restarting the apache server everytime you got a change is probably not a good idea 😄
you should still use the provided dev servers of whatever webframework you use.
in the case of my flask example, it's simply that little app.run(...) example at the end.

[sly eagle]

Okay, so that creates a bunch more questions...

In my current world, all I need to do PHP dev is MAMP. I use NetBeans for convenience of error checking my code, but I could technically write in a text editor

I dont use any frameworks with PHP - just pure HTML, CSS, PHP hand-coded

Can you write pure Pythin and have it work?

[latent drift]

for web? that's possible but much harder. No really one does that.

[sly eagle]

yes, for a website / web app

So the smart advice is to use a "framework"?

[latent drift]

yes. 🙂

(even if it was php)

[sly eagle]

From my brief research, it sounds like Django would be the smarter way to go for me?

[sly eagle]

That may be why I have 60,000 lines of spaghetti code?!

[latent drift]

possibly 😄

django is a good choice. the docs are pretty good from my experience.

[sly eagle]

So Django is a "framework" but how does that relate to a webserver and to a webserver environment like MAMP?

[latent drift]

a framework in the sense that it provides code that does a few common things for you:

• you can use it to map routers (e.g. /hello/world) to functions. So if a browser opens http://localhost/hello/world a specific funcrion gets automatically called.
• it deals with parsing query and form parameters
• outputting your response in the right way (encodings etc.)
• many (including django) provide a template engine, so you keep the html and python code mostly separated.
• and many also provide a small built-in webserver, like already mentioned, that has features like auto-reloading and extensive debug messages on errors.

a webserver like apache, that comes with mod_wsgi is essentially just a "deliverer" of requests. it simply forwards any request it receives to the python app, the python app processes it and then returns a response back to apache, that is then delivered back to the client.

[sly eagle]

So you still use Apache to serve up websites built with Pythin?

[latent drift]

I dont'

[sly eagle]

But you can?

[latent drift]

yes. with mod_wsgi

[sly eagle]

What exactly does mod_wsgi do?

[latent drift]

^ that, and it runs your python code.

[sly eagle]

So Apache is the actual webserver which serves up web pages to my viewers, and mod_wsgi is presumably a "module" that allows Apache and Pythin to take to one another?

[latent drift]

with mod_wsgi, apache gets a request from a client, and then basically packs the request in the right format, ready for python, and calls a function in your python app (usually that function is called app or application)

yes, apache is what the browser connects to.

[sly eagle]

But is there a running instance of Pythin - like a "Python server" of sorts?

[latent drift]

yes, it's constantly running within mod_wsgi

possibly multiple instances even (workers)

[sly eagle]

So certainly locally, I would have Apache running all the time as a webserver to communicate with the browser, and then there is also an application server for Pythin that is listeningf or requests from Apache and then grabbing Python files and translating them using mod_wsgi and sending them to Apache?

[latent drift]

it's not "grabbing python files". python web dev doesn't work on a file-by-file basis like php does.

[sly eagle]

Oh?

[latent drift]

wsgi works by calling a function. no matter the path you request. it's always the same function.

and most webframeworks then look at the request it received, and direct it further inside of your python app to other functions (or return 404 if nothing matchin was found)

[sly eagle]

I'm confused... I am used to having separate .php files and the PHP server executes them I guess

[latent drift]

you can of course split your code across multiple python files and use the import system to pull everything together. but the entry point for all requests is always the same function.

[sly eagle]

Are you familiar with PHP?

[latent drift]

very

[sly eagle]

I used to be! LOL

thinking

[latent drift]

I still use it because it's so easy to just drop a file onto the server, and then you're done with your setup 🙂

[sly eagle]

So you go to https://www.mywebsite.com and I have an index.php file. So just so I actually understand all of this, what happens between your browser and my index.php file on the web host?

-- just made up the URL - sorry!

The PHP engine - whatever it is called - parses up the index.php file and executes it and serves up the end HTML, right?

[latent drift]

• client sends request to the webserver (e.g. apache)
• apache sees it's a .php file, so it looks for the php file (and presumably finds it)
• apaches mod_php gets invoked and compiles and runs the php file and the php file produces some output
• apache receives that output and returns it as a response to the client

roughly.

if it's php-fpm, then there is another step, where apache is not using mod_php, but instead uses fastcgi to pass the request to a separate process that does all the php parsing instead.

[sly eagle]

Okay, thanks for explaining that

So mod_php is the application server?

Is that the right name>

[latent drift]

kinda. the difference to python is, that if no request comes in, then no PHP is running.

the python app server usually runs all the time

[sly eagle]

And mod_php is a module running in Apache, right?

[latent drift]

yes

not sure it's called mod_php exactly, but something like that

[sly eagle]

So now talking about how Python works

First of all, it sounds like Python's "server" is separate from Apache?

[latent drift]

it can be.

[sly eagle]

Either / or

[latent drift]

with mod_wsgi it's effectively embedded in apache as a subprocess I believe. haven't used it for a long time, so I could be wrong on that.

[sly eagle]

So if I chose to use MAMP, then MAMP would have Apache inside of it which would use mod_wsgi to run the Pythin server, right?

[latent drift]

I don't actually know the details on mod_wsgi, to be honest

yes

[sly eagle]

But you are saying that if I use the Django framework, then Django would provide the Pythin server as a bonus?

[latent drift]

a development webserver (as alternative to apaches part)

it's not meant to be run in production, but helps with development, as it can automatically restart the server, when it detects changes. and gives error messages

[sly eagle]

Okay

More dumb questions...

So what are my options to code HTML, CSS, and Python - hopefully all together? Like can I still use NetBeans - because again I am familiar with it?

Or do I have to code each language separately?

I guess I am asking about an IDE

[latent drift]

you probably can do that just fine

[sly eagle]

Using Netbeans?

[latent drift]

yup

you might have to run the django dev-server from a terminal, but that's hardy difficult 🙂

[sly eagle]

Should I be able to get NetBeans to talk to Django so that I can code and then launch my code and see it run in "DEV"?

[latent drift]

ah. does netbeans even support python syntax?

[latent drift]

maybe, if you can run commands through netbeans

[sly eagle]

In the past, I would launch MAMP - which turns on the Apache and mySQL servers, and then in Ntbeans, I would hit Shift + F6 and Firefo would launch and display my - hopefully working - PHP webpage

Yeah, I think the advantage of netBeans is that it suports like 20 languages from Java to PHP to I'm sure Python - not sure about thing slike C, C++

Does Django offer an IDe also, or just the Pythin server?

What IDE do you use to code Python?

[latent drift]

django is just a framework. it's only python code

I use PyCharm

from Jetbrains

[sly eagle]

open-source or paid?

[latent drift]

paid. though it does have a free community edition.

[sly eagle]

cost?

[latent drift]

uh

pycharm alone I think about 90 euros yearly? not sure, I use the all products pack to get all jetbrains tools 🙂

[sly eagle]

So you like PyCharm the best for IDE's I guess?

[latent drift]

yes.

[sly eagle]

Ugh, another subscription model I see!

Which versions of Python should I target again?

[latent drift]

between 3.9 and 3.12

(inclusive)

[little echo]

If you prefer a more forum like experience, head over to discuss.python.org, a Discourse forum. You can use it as a forum, or even just via email (I use it 90% by email myself).

[sly eagle]

Is one best?

[latent drift]

the newer the better? I suppose.

if you can go for 3.12, you should.

3.11 is fine too

[sly eagle]

Thanks for the tip. Is that web forum active or is it slow going?

[little echo]

Newer is usually better unless you need to support an older platform (eg a hosting system which hasn't got thelatest version) or if some package doesn't yet support the latest cutting edge.

[little echo]

Active.

[sly eagle]

Back to Django.... So Django is a "framework" which sounds like a code-base that has "helper" files and those reside inside the Python "server" and help to translate the Python source files for Apache to serve?

[little echo]

Less active than here. But a more email discussion like feel rather than "live chat".

[sly eagle]

I'd give my right nut to be back in the late 1990's or early 2000's when everything was browser based and you could have intense convesations like this one but it would be saved in a thread

[sly eagle]

I am one of the last people on Earth that longs for long email conversations... sigh

[latent drift]

Welcome to the Internet.

[little echo]

Discourse then. Turn on the email mode if you like; I did.

[sly eagle]

Does that sound correct, @Sani?

BTW, Sani (and Team), I feel like I have made a lot of progress in this conversation so far

[latent drift]

yes mostly. the framework helps process the requests by the client and returns responses back to apache (and then back to the client).

[sly eagle]

I suppose technically the framework is a series of files that the Python server uses to process things?

[latent drift]

yes, basically.

[sly eagle]

Okay, so for dev. I can use NetBeans or PyCharm

For my DEV environment, it sounds like I can use MAMP or I could use the webserver for Pythin found in Django?

[latent drift]

yes, but I think the free pycharm community version doesn't support web stuff properly (the pro version does though)

you can try pycharm pro for a month or so though for free

[little echo]

There's also VSCode, which is pretty popular.

I'm a vim-in-a-terminal guy myself.

[sly eagle]

You said $90/month or per year?

[latent drift]

yes. it's an "either / or"

• if you used mamp for development, it would require you to restart your apache server everytime you do a change to any of your python files.

which you can imagine can be pretty annoying 😉

[latent drift]

year

and euros. but it's probably roughly the same in dollar

[sly eagle]

Knowing how I code, that would break something. SO I guess I need to look into PyCharm for something similar

[little echo]

If you're developing a django app, if you're running the dev webserver with its manage.py runserver, it reloads things when you change the source code on the fly.

[latent drift]

https://www.jetbrains.com/de-de/pycharm/buy/?section=personal&billing=yearly

[sly eagle]

Is PyCharm a full-functioning IDE? (I chose NetBeans like 20 years ago because I like that it allows me to step through my PHP code to find where an error is happening)

[little echo]

I think the Flask dev server also reloads on the fly.

(Flask is an alternative, and much smaller, Python web framework.)

[latent drift]

yes. including integrated database browser (like phpmyadmin)

[sly eagle]

So I could basically repalce MAMP with PyCharm and have the ability to code HTML, CSS, and Python in one IDE, plus having the ability to do MySQL database design changes as well?

[latent drift]

you'd still need the mysql server.

and you can connect through pycham (pro) to the mysql server and do that stuff, yes

[sly eagle]

So the paid version comes with the MySQL server included?

[latent drift]

no

[sly eagle]

(Sorry to be a weanie, but getting my head back into coding after 7-10 years off is hard enough, I don't want to get tripped up doing system admin stuff!)

[latent drift]

you can connect to the existing mysql server through pycharm pro (I think the community version doesn't have that feature).

[sly eagle]

So there isn't exactly a one-stop-shop if I go to Python / MySQL, huh?

(Unless I want to yo-yo the webserver 1,000 times per day in MAMP)

[latent drift]

you can still keep mamp around, and only use it's mysql server

[sly eagle]

What is the name of the fancy tool for MySQL that is supposed to be way better than phpMyAdmin?

(Have been away so long I even forget what type of tool it is called. DB IDE?)

[latent drift]

I have no clue 😄

[sly eagle]

MySQL Workbench

So back to Python...

Is Python a "strongly-typed" language?

[latent drift]

strong yes. static no.

[sly eagle]

I forget what "static" means?

[latent drift]

(e.g. in php you can do: "abc" + 123 and get: "abd123")
you can't do that in python, because strings and int have different types.

static (in contrast to dynamic types) means that variables can have different types

myvar = 123  # int
myvar = "abc"  # now a str

[little echo]

Technically: all the objects have types. A variable can refer to any object thus to any type of object.

[latent drift]

static languages typically define what type the variables have

[sly eagle]

Wait, so I thought PHP was dynamically typed where you can mix-n-match diffeent data types

[latent drift]

it's dynamic. yes

[sly eagle]

But you said Pythin is not static?

[latent drift]

but also "weakly" typed.

there is: static <--> dynamic
and: strong <--> weak

[sly eagle]

Static means you can't mix data-types, right?

[little echo]

Static generally means: a variable refers to a specific type of value.

[sly eagle]

Maybe Sani had a type-o because he said Python no for static

[little echo]

No. it's just a slightly complex thing.

[latent drift]

static/dynamic is in regards to syntax.
weak/strong is a bit more difficult to define, but is roughly how different types interact with each other.

in C for example you need to do:

int i = 0;
``` that's static typing (the syntax requires the type)

[sly eagle]

Okay, thanks for the refresher

Is Python a POP or OOP?

Or both?

[little echo]

We do a lot of OOP in Python.

[latent drift]

POP?

[sly eagle]

Process-oriented Prorgamming

[latent drift]

not sure I've heard that specific term before

[sly eagle]

You're too young! LOL

Languages like Pascal, Fortran, COBOL, Basic, etc are process-oriented programming languages because the work on the paradigm of linear porcesses versus the use of objects like Small-Talk, Java, C++, etc

[latent drift]

quick peek, I don't think python is POP.
you can do OOP, and it's somewhat common, but not nearly as demanding as Java is.

[sly eagle]

So would Python be a step up in the food-chain for me?

[latent drift]

is it different from Procedural Programming?

[sly eagle]

I never know looking on YouTube, because I watched one idiot claim that JavaScript is the best language known to man, but that Java is garbage

[latent drift]

JavaScript and Java are separate things

[sly eagle]

Oops. I misspoke - because I see the world in "processes". YES, I meant to say "Procedural Programming" or I called it "POP" = "Procedure-Oriented Programming" (vs Object-Oriented Programming)

[sly eagle]

I understand, but my point is that there is so much misinformation out there

[latent drift]

that's true

[sly eagle]

My understanding - from like 7 years ago - is that Pythin is a respected "middle-of-the-road" langyage that is not necessarily o the same levels as SmallTalk, C++ or Java, but way better than PHP

[latent drift]

and yes. how can javascript be the best language, when python already is?

[sly eagle]

As mentioned at the beginning - when I was melting down - I want to make "wise" decisions moving forward

[latent drift]

python is actually quite "object oriented" in the sense, that quite literally everything in python is an object. But when writing python, you're not limited to other OOP principles (like javas silly, every-file-a-class silliness)

[sly eagle]

So if I switch to Python, the hope would be that it will do more for me, and help to make me a better programmer

[latent drift]

you can write procedural code, and mix it with classes where needed.

[latent drift]

oh I believe it can do that. I improved a lot when I switched away from php to python years ago 😄

[sly eagle]

If PHP is a 1 and C++/Java are a 10, where is Pythin?

[latent drift]

on what scale? 😄

what is it measuring?

[sly eagle]

1 to 10

[latent drift]

no I mean.. does it measure OOP-ness?

php is actually quite a bit closer to Java, than I think C++ is...

so not sure where to put python there

[sly eagle]

Oh. Let's just say overall quality

[latent drift]

I never really used C++ or java... and I'm not about to try 😄

[civic jackal]

in terms of "good language design" I would not rank C++ above Python tbh

[sly eagle]

Oh?

@civic jackal so how would you rank Python in the programming food-chain?

[sturdy hemlock]

https://spectrum.ieee.org/top-programming-languages-2024

[sly eagle]

Some people say that PHP is one of the best for websites, but I think it - used to be - a little too sloppy to be taken seriously

[sturdy hemlock]

And https://github.blog/news-insights/octoverse/octoverse-2024/

[civic jackal]

I think a 7 or 8? it's not perfect but it's rather good.

[sly eagle]

And where would you put PHP?

[civic jackal]

I don't know modern PHP enough to have a worthwhile opinion. I'm told it is way better than what it used to be, which was quite bad.

[latent drift]

personally I'd put modern php quite high actually. It has a lot of bad old stuff with it, but the package manager composer is pretty great - far better than pip at least (in my opinion and experience).

[sly eagle]

Yeah, I think PHP 4 and maybe PHP5 were pretty crude. I do think that modern PHP - whatever version that is - is quite a bit better.

[latent drift]

8

[sly eagle]

What is PIP?

[latent drift]

package manager. you use it to install 3rd party libraries (e.g. django)

[sly eagle]

For me, what I am really looking for is this... The major failings of my website - even if I had gotten it launched before the world switched to mobile - was this...

1.) Business / Application Logic mixed with HTML/CSS

2.) Probably a lot of generally poor coding decisions compared to "real" enterprise programmers

3.) Not taking advantage of the "Write Once, Re-use many Times" principle

Now that isn't all of PHP, but I think it contributed to my poor coding

This tartup and my website has been a dream of mine since like 2000 - but a lot of life got in the way

*startup

[latent drift]

1. yea, for that you'd use a template engine nowadays. probably not directly, but by using one of the many php frameworks that ship with it.
2. most of it probably also boggles down by just using a framework 😄

[sly eagle]

I want to believe that I can still right the ship and launch my startup and make enough $$ to live off of and get out of IT while I still can

I know I have a good business idea, I just need to get my sh*t together with my website and my coding

I KNOW that I have to rewite all of my GUI

What I am still trying to figure out is this...

1.) Do I have what it takes to become proficient in Python in 2025?

2.) Can I learn from my above mentioned coding mistakes and write better code with the help of Pythin and people like all of you in 2025?

3.) Can I FINALLY learn OOp before I die?

[latent drift]

perseverance. if you have that, then yes. 🙂

[sly eagle]

4.) Can I get enough of my website re-coded in Python in the first 6 months of 2025 to make it functional and "go live"?

[latent drift]

!resources you might also want to bookmark that, if you end up deciding on python.

[dense surge]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[sly eagle]

I am not a geek per se, but one of my "bucket list" items if to finish my website, make some $$, and feel like I have accomplished something great

Any thoughts on the above items?

(I am very persistent, but I feel like I am so far behind where I wanted to be at this point in life that maybe it is too late?)

[latent drift]

I mean.. the only way to find out if you can do any of those things, is by just doing them 🙂

[sly eagle]

True, but the other option is to just stick with PHP

My thinking is that it will take so much to get my head back into HTML, CSS, and PHP - and my code - that I might as well take my business architecture and strat fresh with modern languages and coding approaches

(It takes no more effort to re-learn HTML5 / CSS5 vs. stuff used on mobile)

Of course, learning Python could be scary

Sani, I gues you helped me figure out most of the dev stuff, right?

[latent drift]

I hope so 🙂

[sly eagle]

Do you think that the hosting part will be an issue?

How common are wesbites using Pythin?

[latent drift]

it can be annoying

well, with php dominating somewhere around... 80%? any other language is basically sharing the remainder.. so not very common.
But apparently youtube is (or was) made in python originally.

[sly eagle]

Should I let that hold me back?

[latent drift]

no?

[sly eagle]

I mean is Python like used for desktop apps, or sometimes larger websites too?

[latent drift]

python is a general purpose language, used for a variety of things. I think the most common is for command line utilities (esp. on linux and mac)

but it's also used for desktop apps and websites, yes. I think the latter more than the former - but I might be wrong.

[sly eagle]

If I find a host that support Python, what would I need to do to upload it and have it work?

[latent drift]

depends on the host. I have only ever used Heroku and private root servers

[sly eagle]

(It's still unclear to me how Pythin files relate to HMTL and CSS and how the way I know to code and how things exist would differ)

[latent drift]

there is also "PythonAnywhere", but I've never used it

[sly eagle]

What is a private root server?

A Virtual Private Server with root access?

[latent drift]

yes

(virtual or not. it just means: do everything yourself without help - not fun)

[sly eagle]

I used to use Liquid Web which has managed VPS's and I believe they will give your root access

But I had issues with them after they grew so I dumped them

Guess that requires research on my end

Can you help me understand how Pythin, HTML, and CSS and JavaScript files co-exist?

[latent drift]

generally you keep them in separate folders.

css and javascript files (and images etc.) are just static files. so nothing is done to them, they're just sitting in some predefined location.

HTML files are typically generated through python. Not intermingled, like you can do in PHP, but outsourced into "template" files.

they're mostly HTML files, with some special syntax mixed in

[sly eagle]

My website was all PHP files

So you are saying that Pythin generates HTML end files?

[latent drift]

yes. not directly, but by passing it to the template engine

[sly eagle]

How long have you been coding?

[latent drift]

20-ish years. 15 of them with python 🙂

[sly eagle]

Wow

Would you recommend I use OOP or procedural if I take on Pythin?

[latent drift]

learning some OOP is helpful, imho

but if you decide on a webframework, then that decision is somewhat taken away from you, as the framework usually expects you to organize your code in certain ways

but I believe in django you use both anyway.

[sly eagle]

Is Django hard to learn?

[latent drift]

it has a bit of a learning curve. especially if not only django, but also python is new to you.

[sly eagle]

Of course you don't know me or my ability, but how long would it take me to set up everything we discussed, get familiar with DJango, and do sme basic coding like creating a user registration and sign in module?

[latent drift]

I can't really judge that.

[sly eagle]

2 months?

[latent drift]

oh well, if that's the upper limit, that should definitely be doable 😄

I think django already comes with basic user management.

not sure entirely

[sly eagle]

I do have a day job and life, but I would hope that I can get some results fairly quick

But if you were like, "No, you won't even be able to do the basics until July 2025" then I might reconsider things

[latent drift]

no, if you already got coding experience, I think it's mostly about understanding the tools and settings things up, that causes most problems (as that is new in your case)

[sly eagle]

Okay, good

(There is a reward in Heavan for all of your help today)

*Heaven

I decided recently, "It's now or never" so I am trying to do my research and see if I can finally get things done in 2025

[latent drift]

and you can always ask here if you get stuck

[sly eagle]

True

I appreciate having a conversation first, as doing this in my main chat area would ahev never worked!

How confortable are you with databases?

[latent drift]

decently

[sly eagle]

Because most of my content is news articles, I am curious about your thoughts on this...

With my current website, I would compose an article in a word editor, then mark it up manually with HTML, then store that HTML file in a field in a record in my database table.

The idea being that every article has diffeent markups from links to bold, italics, color, so I felt like each article was one off

Is that a bad approach?

(I think I actually found a way to markup hyperlinks so that my PHP would convert "Some article" to "https // www somearticle com"

(This is another example of trying how to be a better programmer)

[latent drift]

that's usually done using rich text editors (RTE) directly in the browser

[sly eagle]

So you are saying that I shouldn't have to manually mark up my articles?

[latent drift]

one of the largest and most complex one is probably the ckeditor (https://ckeditor.com/ckeditor-5/demo/feature-rich/)

https://ckeditor.com/ckeditor-5/demo/editor-types/#classic

but I never figured that one out... so ...

(and it requires javascript of course)

[sly eagle]

But even with those, you ultimately store the article + HTML in the database, right?

[latent drift]

yes

[sly eagle]

Because I am so far behind, my #1 goal is to be able to get my content online

So I have been thinking that maybe I should just buy some books on modern HTML/CSS and responsive design for mobile and get enough of my site done so people can browse my content

In a worst case, i could just hardcode articles and go pure HTML and CSS

But at least I would have a working site and people could easily reaad things on their phones

[latent drift]

that's fine too, if you're the only ond updating it in the beginning

[sly eagle]

Just me

I threw together a splash page while my 85% done website is in the shop. But when people would look on their phones it would spill off screen - very bad

So I am thinking having content that is online and works on mobile is Step 1

And I can always put the HTML articles in MySQL later, right?

[latent drift]

yes

you could even use static site generators. that use a simpler syntax (for example Markdown) to convert it to html with a command. But not sure how willing you are to set that up. I also don't know any except for sphinx, which is more for your typical documentation.

[sly eagle]

Being old-school and preferring user forums, it comes natural to me to type in things ike BBCode as I type - so marking up articles manually isn't a big deal - although not as efficient as using things like CKEditor

I totally do't know mobile, but I guess next Iw ould want to learn Javascript finally?

[latent drift]

you likely need a little bit of js for some basic functionality. esp. mobile stuff, as things (like menus) are often hidden until you click on the little burger icon, or the like.

[sly eagle]

So you need JS for that and can't get by with CSS?

[latent drift]

actually, you can to some degree...

I sometimes use hidden checkboxes to toggle things visibility. 😄

[sly eagle]

That is another topic...

Never having programmed Javascript - hard to believe I know - which one would I want to learn for lient-side stuff and for mobile like you mention above?

There are so many flavors that it makes my head spin!

[latent drift]

not sure what you mean by flavors?

[sly eagle]

well, there are all kinds of different variants of Javascript

[latent drift]

not really. it's really just the browser javascript, and that one is pretty much identical everywhere with it's features.

[sly eagle]

I'm Googling and not finding what I mean

I can't recall the names

Frameworks maybe

[latent drift]

you mean frameworks, like react, vue etc.?

and the 800 other js frameworks that were invented in the last 5 minutes.

[sly eagle]

Node, Angular, jQuery, Bootstrap, Laravel, etc

[sly eagle]

THIS --->

[latent drift]

only angular and jquery are relevant for the browser javascript here

Node is standalone javascript, bootstrap is mostly css framework, and laravel is php 😄

[sly eagle]

oops

[latent drift]

I usually just stick with jquery.

[sly eagle]

That is just libraries right?

Or functions I mean

[latent drift]

if you want to use one of the fancy js frameworks, like Angular, React, Vue (the three big ones) - you'll likely end up abandoning any HTML stuff on the server side... which would require you to learn an API based approach of developing websites... instead of just outputting HTML.

And I personally don't like these kind of websites. But that might just be me

I typically stick with jquery 😄

[sly eagle]

That sounds alien to me

[latent drift]

or plain old vanilla javascript.

[sly eagle]

Another reason why website grew into a monster is that I was pig headed and did everything server-side (e.g. form validation)

The fact that I am even considering learning Javascript is a miracle - but what you say about Angular, React, Vue seems over-the-top to me

[latent drift]

form validation always belongs server side. the client side is a bonus but not something you can rely on (as it can be circumvented)

[sly eagle]

True

So maybe I wasn't entirely wrong

[latent drift]

django has all that built-in (form rendering and validation)

[sly eagle]

But client-side validation would probably eliminate a lot of round-tripping and just doing final data validation

That combined with the fact that I have accepted that my website needs to be built for mobile first, would you say that jQuery makes the most sense since I am leaning towards Python/Django?

[latent drift]

yea. though nowadays the html fields themselves already got some borwser supported validation

e.g. if you set required attribute, the browser requires you to input a value, now javascript needed

[sly eagle]

Another reason to learn modern HTML/CSS/mobile dev

[latent drift]

type="email" adds email validation

etc

[sly eagle]

cool

So jQuery?

[latent drift]

yes, jquery is a nice addition, in my opinion, that makes some stuff easier with javascript

[mental yoke]

react can really help to create advanced web app quickly

[sly eagle]

How long to learn jQuery for just basic stuff like form validation and menu drop-downs, etc?

[latent drift]

eh, like I said, you don't really need jquery for form validation

[mental yoke]

fastapi doesnt rely too much on oop, so you might be interested in that

[latent drift]

menu dropdowns.. well bootstrap got some optional javascript libs for that as well, that you can use... so it's only really about adding the richt markup to the page, and be done with it

[sly eagle]

How long to learn React - with no prior Javascript experience - to do basic things like I will likely need?

[sly eagle]

You mean Django?

[mental yoke]

The good thing about react is that you dont need to learn all react to build nice web apps

its really intuitive and there's a lot of tutorial out there

[latent drift]

no, bootstrap. the css framework for responsive websites. it has some javascript components you can use, including some simple dropdpwn menus.

[mental yoke]

and there's the Mui library that helps you create clean, consistent and professional web app even faster

[sly eagle]

Oh

So am I dumb to not use a CSS framework?

[latent drift]

no.

[sly eagle]

Why React vs Agular vs Vue vs jQuery?

[mental yoke]

JQuery operates at a very low level

I've personnaly never used Angular or Vue so I wouldn't

but I have built several web applications using react + fastapi and it makes web dev 100 times faster

compared to when I was writing pure html / css

[sly eagle]

Here is what I need for my "Minimum Viable Product" (MVP)...

1.) Heading / Branding

2.) Listing of news articles

3.) News articles

4.) basic navigation

5.) Basic Article Sorting / Filtering

6.) Integrating something like - drawing blank on names - but video-hosting platforms so people can read an article and watch a video on the same topic - and bypass YouTube which doesn't do what I need it to

Can I start off with just HTML/ CSS / Javascript for that, or do I need MySQl and Pythin too?

[mental yoke]

you definitely need a backend for this

[sly eagle]

(Assuming people are consuming this on a smartphone with limited screen real estate)

@Sani agreed earlier that I could hardcode articles for now until I learn Python

Would be nice to have a "go live" for my MVP by March 1, 2025

[mental yoke]

if you want to host video and integrate them in your site you'll need a backend

[sly eagle]

(Understanding I have a full-time job + am busy creating lots of video content which takes time away from getting back into development)

[sly eagle]

No, I would be using a 3rd-party video hosting platform - all that should require is HTML/CSS

[mental yoke]

oh

then sure you can fully hardcode articles

[sly eagle]

Soemthing like Teachable, Kajabi, Wistia, Thinkific, etc

Think of what I am doing as mostly like the NYT meets YouTube

[mental yoke]

raw html css will make your app harder to maintain and to scale in the future

If I were you I'd still take a look at react

which is basically javascript with some html in it

[sly eagle]

Well I came here today to see if it makes sense to switch from PHP to Python

Since you are late to the game, I have a website that is like 60,000 lines of - not very efficient - code and it is 85% done and because it has sat on the shelf thanks for The Great Recession, Pandemic, etc it isn't worth finishing because it assumes you are on a laptop/desktop with a 13" screen

If I am going to retool all of that, I am leaning heavily towards learnings omething more complex like Python and do more serious dev

I am interestedd in also learning Javascript for the first time in my life, but at the end of the day, I am old-school and prefer HTML and CSS and server side stuff over bloated Javascript sites - just my taste

[mental yoke]

the backend for this app sounds doable in far less than 500 lines of code with fastapi + an orm

[sly eagle]

What I described maybe, but not the whole original website I need to replace

Say, library is closing soon, but I will be back online after I get in my car, so if you will be hear, I'd like to continue

And THANK YOU Sani for everything today - proof there are guardian angels around! 😉

[latent drift]

I'll likely head to bed soon. it's nearly midnight here.

[sly eagle]

I hope we can stay in touch

Are you on at certain times or days?

I am trying to pivot from video content creation to finally fixing my website issues

[lofty lichen]

Just hopping in to mention that this thread will automatically close after one hour of inactivity. Since there was a lot of useful conversation here you might want to save the link to the thread so that you can find it later: https://discord.com/channels/267624335836053506/1304867404781846550

[sly eagle]

Thanks for the tip

Once i close my laptop, I should be back in 5 minutes

@Zig, I am clueless about Discord - so foreign - can you explain how this thread and the link work? You imply all of this converation will be erased?

[latent drift]

it won't, but the thread will lock after some time of inactivity

the link is a direct link to this thread, so you can reread it some other time.

[sly eagle]

It locks after an hour?

Ugh! That defeats the purpose - another reason why I miss onlien forums

[latent drift]

it's a "feature" of this specific server. the python bot closes it, to free up the forum from inactive threads (most threads are just for short time help sessions, so don't stay active long)

[sly eagle]

Oh

@Sani, so you think I could get a Python dev environment set up and do some basic things in a couple months?

[latent drift]

yes

[sly eagle]

From a business standpoint I guess I should focus on content first and then worry about the ecommerce stuff later

Trying to get my head back into all my wesbite did

From a content standpoint, it had sections and subsections that were database driven and which I could change on the admin side

Are those things I would want to use Pythin for?

That is querying the database to pull up articles for a given section

[latent drift]

that's perfectly possible

[sly eagle]

It sounds like we are similar in that we prefer doing most stuff on the server side?

(Versus going crazy with Javascript)

[latent drift]

absolutely 😄

I really don't like all those big js frameworks. I've tried a few of them, but they generally caused more issues than they solved to me.

[sly eagle]

Since we have covered everything under the sun...

I guess another way I could make my original codebase slimer and easier to maintain is to start using stored procedures in MySQL and just call them from my code? (Versus having the same query listed a dozen times in my PHP)

[latent drift]

possibly. though an ORM could also do the trick.

[sly eagle]

Do you consider yourself an expert on OOP?

[latent drift]

hm hard to say. OOP is different from language to language. but generally I'd say I'm decent at it, if I want to use it.

it's just one more tool on the toolbelt

[sly eagle]

Do you code in procedural or OOP in Pythin?

[latent drift]

both

[sly eagle]

(My finger is totally avoiding the "o" key today!!!!!)

[latent drift]

I don't code purely OOP, as is demanded by e.g. Java.

I find that annoying 😄

[sly eagle]

If I code procedurally, then do I do it on a page by page or function by function basis?

[latent drift]

what do you mean by page by page?

[sly eagle]

Like in my old code base, I might have an "article.php" or "index/php" or "login.php" script

[latent drift]

with django, you use classes, when django tells you to use classes... e.g. Models (for the ORM) or Forms require classes. and are effeectively ORM

[sly eagle]

ORM = Object Relational Model?

[latent drift]

the views (the individual pages essentially), are typically just each a function, but they can be done in classes as well, if desired.

yes

no

Object Relational Mapper

[sly eagle]

What is that?

[latent drift]

it maps relations (tables from a database), to objects.

[sly eagle]

(I have this chat also open in Firefox - is there a way to PDF this whole thing for reference?)

[latent drift]

so id you got a table "users" in mysql, an ORM would take the rows and map each row to an object of the class "User" in python. for example.

[little echo]

"Save web page" ?

[latent drift]

I don't think the whole discussion is available in one save.

[sly eagle]

Is that unique to Python? (ORM)

[latent drift]

no

most, if not all OOP languages support some form or even multiple ORMs

djangos ORM is certainly not the only one for python. I already mentioned SQLAlchemy some time ago.

php got those as well of course 😉

[sly eagle]

Yeah, just tried PDF'ing it and didnt work

Ugh

Can I bookmark or pin this?

[latent drift]

.bm

[frigid saffron]

Do you mind?

Your input was invalid: You must either provide a reference to a valid message, or reply to one.

The lookup strategy for a message is as follows (in order):

1. Lookup by '{channel ID}-{message ID}' (retrieved by shift-clicking on 'Copy ID')
2. Lookup by message ID (the message must be in the current channel)
3. Lookup by message URL

Usage:```
.bookmark [target_message] [title=Bookmark]

[latent drift]

well not sure how much that helps you. but you can link to th thread itself (right click on the thread topic and "copy link" ->
https://discord.com/channels/267624335836053506/1304867404781846550

[sly eagle]

So that URL should work even after the thread is locked?

[latent drift]

yes

you just can't write in it anymore 🙂

[sly eagle]

Okay

Here is what dragging, copying, and pasting in LibreOffice looks like...

Are you in Germany?

[latent drift]

yes

[sly eagle]

Cool

Are you familiar with The New York Times?

[latent drift]

only the name

[sly eagle]

Read the newspaper much?

[latent drift]

not really. 🙂

[sly eagle]

Ha ha

I am trying to build a full-scale newspaper, and am curious if because of mobile it is a fool's errand to do things as a webpage and if instead I should be building a mobile app?

[latent drift]

it should be a website, if you want it to be found via google

[sly eagle]

Good point

Considering that I mostly use my iPhone as a camera, I guess people just death scroll through endless newspaper articles since you cant even fit one article in the display?

I just looked at the NYT on my iPhone - I could never read the newspaper that way

I guess that at least responsive design adapts for people on alaptop like me

[latent drift]

yea

[sly eagle]

Are you on here much?

Certain days or times?

[latent drift]

sometimes.

nothing specific. whenever I feel like taking a peek into the forum 🙂

[sly eagle]

Looks like I got lucky today!

I'mjust scrolling copying and pasting into LibreOffice for future refeence

[sly eagle]

Well, time for me to go get some supper

I really appreciate everyone's help today

Especially Sani

Lots to chew on

Probably need to look into mor emodern HTML and CSS and come up with a mobile design first and then revisit Pythn afer that

[latent drift]

sounds like a plan

[dense surge]

Python help channel closed

This help channel has been closed and it's no longer possible to send messages here. If your question wasn't answered, feel free to create a new post in #1035199133436354600. To maximize your chances of getting a response, check out this guide on asking good questions.