career-advice

[honest pivot]

Bootcamps are also expensive

[dense mesa]

Again, you should really be looking into their structures and cash flows before making such statements 😅

[ebon elk]

Not as expensive

[gilded valley]

The average salary for a CS graduate aged 25-29 is 70k and something like a 5% unemployment rate. The average salary for a high-school graduate is something like 35k. College is pretty clearly a low-risk high-reward investment for the typical high school graduate

[ebon elk]

No, every college engages in economic rent collection

[near ocean]

this isnt on topic, we're not exactly finance specialists here...

[smoky quest]

that would imply they don't provide any value.
The cost of education in the USA is also very specific to the USA

[true harness]

at least in the united states, state colleges or community colleges are very affordable, and have lots of need-based grants

[ebon elk]

This is true

[gilded valley]

economic rent just means charging more than a fair price

[dense mesa]

To anyone lurking/reading this, if you're in the US or UK a lot of higher education institutions are legally obliged to publicise their financial statements, as well as structure on incorporation. If you want to make more informed comments on the nature of this industry, would highly recommend checking those out first

[ebon elk]

And yes, I'd say since us universities are benefiting financially by way of economic rents, that their educational value suffers from it.

[gilded valley]

It feels to me like you've seen some youtube video bashing on Universities charging economic rents and swallowed the clickbait whole

[smoky quest]

not sure how that relates though.

[ebon elk]

Just like a landlords currently earn economic rents, thus tend to put the least amount back into the property and just collect the economic rent of their tenants

[dense mesa]

Lol

[smoky quest]

Sounds like there are a lot of assumptions baked into these statements. How did you validate them?

[dense mesa]

Not by actually looking into the piles of documents, that's too boring 😎

[gilded valley]

I do not think you quite understand the idea of an economic rent - at the very least you're using it in a way that lots of people would reject

[ebon elk]

https://www.jstor.org/stable/24356155

[ebon elk]

I am a georgist, I am fully versed in what economic rent is

[dense mesa]

journal of applied philosophy

[near ocean]

why does this feel like a capitalism bad rant

[smoky quest]

and how do bootcamps fix that?

Sounds like we are in the territory of throwing the baby with the bathwater

[ebon elk]

They provide a different opportunity

[ebon elk]

Georgism is a form of captitalism

[smoky quest]

indeed. And that's why college and universities get recommended the most because they are the ones offering the broadest and highest opportunities comparing to the alternatives

[dense mesa]

The concept of money was invented by Big Printer™ so they could profit from the creation of millions of paper currencies

[gilded valley]

The best argument I've seen in favour of bitcoin yet

[ocean sandal]

"...although people should own the value they produce themselves, the economic rent derived from land—including from all natural resources, the commons, and urban locations—should belong equally to all members of society." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism

Ehh... so... Python's job board is cool. I'll have to check it out more frequently since it's not purely software engineering roles

[dense mesa]

This channel is really going off the rails huh

[safe quest]

I have final sem this month of computer engineering, can anyone help me with entry level job offers. Any advice and suggestions are welcome

[red pagoda]

is css html Javascript and python enough for making a website?

[true harness]

yes

[red pagoda]

how much can i get by making personal websites

whats the min i could ask and max

[gilded valley]

the minimum for anything is 0

[red pagoda]

like is 150$ a fair trade?

[gilded valley]

fair doesn't really enter into it

[ocean sandal]

One of the companies I used to work for charged $100 per session for basic websites from personal to small-medium business and it was $300 for the complete package. Typically no more than a handful of pages.

Really, it's hard to say but you'll want to do some research and see what people are charging for similar work + set your prices based on the quality and time it takes to produce. In my former company's case... each consultation was about an hour long. Translates to $100 /hr and we'd take about a week to finish up working on multiple projects at a time.

[gilded valley]

If you're looking to find people to pay you - you just have to offer something competitive. If you have someone who wants to pay you specifically already, then it depends on them a lot

[ebon elk]

Employers value univerty due to previous reputation. When all. Employers vlaue it solely on those grounds then it generates economic rent as everyone then needs a degree of some sort. This and the need to take unrelated courses are my main gripes with university.

The best advice I got from a bootcamp instructor was to land a job and get the company to pay for your cs degree. Yes. As a georgist, I think if employers are going to value degrees so highly, they should pay for them.

[red pagoda]

ty man

[analog sun]

There is no guarantee for the employer that the employee won't quit after getting that degree and moving to another company that requires one as a qualification though right?

[red pagoda]

tell me something what goes on better. Django + python or html css Javascript and python

[flint fractal]

hi

[near ocean]

Would you pay for your accountant's degree or ACA/ACCA?

[gilded valley]

ask #web-development. That's not really relevant to this channel

[red pagoda]

all sorts of topic are here lol and its not that big thing either

[ebon elk]

Several reasons I am here is due to economic rent of land and how it effects the job and housing market (Ricardo's law of rent and iron law of wages). In fact, it's why a lot of people are looking to become software engineers of some sort. But I'd also like to take part in georgist data activities such as the grant Lars got here: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/acx-grants-results?s=r

https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/does-georgism-work-is-land-really

[near ocean]

Lmao i knew this was a sales pitch, just not what for

[analog sun]

This seems off topic for this channel

[smoky quest]

If employers did value the reputation that much, then the specific school's name would have a much stronger importance.
In practice, at least in tech, the name of the school does not matter

[ocean sandal]

No offense in saying this, bro, I had never heard of that ideology before and shared a quick wiki link to the definition for insight but there's no need to mention it in almost every comment

[ebon elk]

It's not a sales pitch, but if you are actually interested in economic justice, so you know, your baristas, gardeners, grocery clerks can afford to live in the same area you do, then apply if you have the needed skills for the grant research project.

[ebon elk]

Read the article series. The wiki doesn't do it justice

[near ocean]

Not interested, I followed the same good advice given here and have a job as a software dev

[gilded valley]

tbf - lots of companies do pay for people to sit accounting qualifications. My company does

[near ocean]

They pay for your professional certification, not your academic

[gilded valley]

Pretty sure my company pays for ACCA

[near ocean]

Yea, thats the professional certification, they wouldnt pay for your accountancy bachelor

They wouldnt even look at you without a degree

[gilded valley]

sure - but you don't need a BSc specifically in Accounting I don't think

[smoky quest]

Companies paying to further the education of their employees is great. But making it a requirement is a different thing (by the same token, they should pay for my car and insurance if they want me to come in the office).
There are also a lot of other factors at play, such as having life happen. Most people won't further their education once they got a job, by choice or not (having kids, family, etc.)

[ebon elk]

If you know about eve online's economic issue. It was fixed with georgist solutions:

https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/digital-real-estate-and-the-digital-housing-crisis

The economist they hired were also not taught about George and yet he reinvented George's wheel and fixed the problem

[ocean sandal]

That's right. More commonly you will see companies paying for certifications since they benefit by having x amount of certified employees in house

[near ocean]

No you need pretty much any degree
My sister has a law degree and is working as a trainee accountant

[gilded valley]

yeah, that's pretty much what I thought

[summer roost]

to tie a bow on the conversation about boot camps vs university: I think that boot camps are the second best option after a university degree if you want to break into the software dev industry. I also think that it's a distant second. University is a safer choice that has better ROI.

If someone can't afford the time or money required to get a university degree - or even an associate's degree from a community college - then the best option available to them may be boot camps. Boot camps are good for what they are, but obviously you don't learn anywhere near as much in 2 to 6 months of boot camp as you learn in 24 to 48 months of college/university.

[ocean sandal]

Keep in mind you're comparing digital land to physical land, where an infinite amount of land can be generated vs finite.

[dense mesa]

Lol I asked if you were pitching earlier and you said no, seems pretty clear now :)

[gilded valley]

There's not much point carrying on the conversation, but I feel the need to leave my mildly dissenting opinion here rather than leaving it on quite such an anti-bootcamp note

University is a safer choice that has better ROI
I think it's very difficult to judge the value of bootcamps because there's almost no data available for them. If you're older than a typical university student I think the case for bootcamps is quite a bit stronger than the case for university.

[peak halo]

hmm, why do you think age makes a difference, in this case?

I would be interested to know what the stats are on employers who would recognize a degree vs a bootcamp certificate. I figure those that would recognize a bootcamp certificate are a subset, but I don't know to what degree.

[summer roost]

I don't know that age makes a difference, but prior background does. Someone who is already a professional and is looking to switch industries might benefit more from a boot camp than from a university degree, all the more so if their previous background was in a closely related industry. Someone with an IT degree looking to switch from QA to software dev might find a boot camp to be the best option, for instance.

[smoky quest]

There are paths for degrees for older people (ex: evening classes and such).
But there is also a chance they care less about establishing a long term career and want something sooner

[smoky quest]

in my experience, it's less about recognizing bootcamp certificates and more about interviewing and hiring them.
There are also some companies with some sort of "jumpstart" program that are geared more towards bootcampers. I think @ Rex had a nice link about it

[gilded valley]

I think age makes a big difference because a lot of the value you get from university is harder to capture as you get older. Some specific reasons: A lot of internships seem pretty ageist in their hiring processes meaning that the access to internships aspect is devalued; If you're starting uni at 25 rather than 18, then your career will probably be 7y shorter meaning the relative debt burden is quite a bit higher and have a shorter working life to pay off the debt and have your salary grow; the older you are the more strongly you already have a work ethic instilled in you, which has a huge impact on the ability to make yourself learn the boring things which are valuable in landing a job; bootcamps tend to be filled with older people and universities with younger people, it's easier to socialise and network with people of a similar age

I had a look for data about bootcamps or even just software developers with no bachelors yesterday and unsurprisingly couldn't find anything from a reasonable source.

[vapid jay]

how many programming lang you need to learn in order to get a job

[summer roost]

there is no set number, though most real world jobs require knowledge of at least a few different languages. Someone doing full stack web development with Python is likely to need to know at least Python, JavaScript, HTML, and CSS, plus possibly also TypeScript, for instance.

[peak halo]

is JavaScript -> TypeScript that much more of a jump than, say, using Python with type annotations everywhere?

[normal crow]

Hello! Programmers. I have just started learning python. So how i can practice. Can you suggest me a way or website for practice. thanks

[thin quest]

Hi Guys, I am totally new to this field. Any thoughts from where should I start?

[ionic pawn]

Hey! Sorry about the ruccus that happenned a little bit ago,im not sure about my carrer choice,BUT im pretty sure im going for any degree of Computer Science/IT,how do i pick?

[summer roost]

!resources has some suggestions for places to start, though this channel isn't the right place to discuss getting started

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[summer roost]

Look into different jobs in the computer industries, decide which of those job descriptions most appeals to you, and then see which degree most closely maps to that job

[ionic pawn]

I dont really know,something for hardware development

[summer roost]

if you're interested in hardware, neither CS nor IT would be the best choice. An Electronics Engineering degree or Computer Engineering degree would be much closer

[ionic pawn]

And i live in a 3rd world country that really does not have any "Tech" colleges and i would have to move out,and i would need to pay for any good college witch is really hard,since me and my family live at about 10k USD/yr

Anything i could try?

[peak halo]

are you willing to say the name of the country? you'll probably get the best advice from someone who is also from that country.

(Please don't give any information that could be tied to you personally, however.)

[ionic pawn]

Bosnia and Herzegovina

Im open to revealing my location,anything near me,just not m exact town

I live around Zenica,for context

[summer roost]

Is your long term goal to live in your current country, or to emigrate to some other country and work there?

[ionic pawn]

Emigrate

[summer roost]

you'd most likely have the best luck with one of the EU countries, then, though I'm not really qualified to offer any guidance beyond that.

[ionic pawn]

I know English best,so peobabbly the US or GB

[summer roost]

the easiest path to a job in the US for a non citizen is getting a student visa and then trying to get a work visa after graduating from university, as far as I know

[peak halo]

it may be that you already know this, but BiH is not part of the EU, so it would still be a lot of overhead for them to begin working in an EU state.

[summer roost]

yeah, I googled before giving that advice. Still, of the countries they could emigrate to, I suspect it would be the simplest to emigrate to an EU state

[peak halo]

certainly easier than moving overseas, and will probably have better opportunities than in the neighboring non-EU states.

[summer roost]

right. For hardware engineering in particular, the goal would be to move somewhere with a mature high tech sector that is well integrated into global markets.

[ionic pawn]

So the US?

J could go to germany first,since i do have a cousin who already lives there

[summer roost]

US, UK, Germany, China... of those, US and UK are the ones where English is the dominant language, though both of those are having strong anti-immigration sentiment at the moment, so... 🤷

[ionic pawn]

And some fourther family in the US too

[honest pivot]

Germany has very favorable conditions for tech employees to immigrate right now, it's a decent option

[ionic pawn]

The problem is... idk the language

[honest pivot]

A1 or A2 are super easy to learn

[ionic pawn]

Im gonna shoot for the US,although now i gotta pick a collegw

[ionic pawn]

I got a B1 certificate alr

[honest pivot]

In German?

[ionic pawn]

Yup

I wouldnt call myself a good enough speaker tho

[honest pivot]

Then you know the language better than most immigrants

Look up the requirements. Of course the US and UK are also possibilities. And like was mentioned, if you go to study at university, it's easier to stay afterwards (except in the UK, unless they change their laws, you'd have the same chance at a work permit afterwards as someone applying from abroad)

[summer roost]

the best way to learn a language is immersion. If you know the basics already, you would build up fluency quickly by starting to speak the language every single day.

[vapid jay]

Hello folks,
I have something that I need a consult with.
I have been working as a software test engineer for 2.5 years now and I have been working with .NET and TypeScript.
I enjoy coding in python a lot, and I code in my free time with python more than I do at work.
My problem is, I don't like my work. And I want to start a new job where I'd use python mainly (not only) but I just don't know what to do with my resume.
I feel like it won't be appreciated if I just put my personal projects with python on my resume & put the 2.5 years of work aside.

How should I tackle this ?

[summer roost]

I feel like it won't be appreciated if I just put my personal projects with python on my resume & put the 2.5 years of work aside.
Definitely don't do that. List all of your current experience, emphasize the parts of your current experience that are most similar to the jobs you want, and start applying to jobs that appeal to you.

[vapid jay]

What I'm mostly "afraid" of, is the fact they jobs I will be applying to are mainly in python, and if the recruiters don't see python anywhere on my resume, they will just ignore it

[mortal wedge]

They will. One thing I recommend to people is to put a "skills" section at the top of your resume and make sure all your relevant skills for the job you're applying for are listed there

[summer roost]

Python will still be listed in your personal projects, and in your "skills" section.

as a test engineer, you might want to learn "pytest" and add it to your skills as well, if you haven't already

[vapid jay]

That's the thing, I don't want to work as a test engineer anymore

[ionic pawn]

F it,going US

[mortal wedge]

Focus on your transferable skills, what did you work on as a test engineer that could carry over to the position that you want?

[ionic pawn]

Now i need a way to pick a college

Computer engineering

[summer roost]

Even people who aren't test engineers will write pytest tests, so it's still a useful skill to highlight.

[vapid jay]

Yes I totally agree, I just wanted to state that point

[summer roost]

by lines of code, I (as a software engineer) probably write 2x to 3x as many lines of code in the form of pytest tests than actual product code

[vapid jay]

And I mostly use unittest

[summer roost]

boo, hiss

pytest is where the cool kids are 🙂

[vapid jay]

Alright, I'll join the club

But yes, It's just that these thoughts were always representing a huge obstacle for me

[graceful mason]

yep, in robotics for every bit of firmware I modify I've got to change at least 1 unit test, 1 simulation test, and 1 AOIT test

[vapid jay]

And I didn't know how to tackle the situation

[summer roost]

anyway, your goal with any sort of career switch is to highlight your current strengths, and try to explain to hiring managers how they're more important than your weaknesses. Sure, you have mostly been doing testing and not application development for the last 2.5 years, which is a weakness compared to hiring someone who has an extra 2.5 years of development experience on you, but testing is important too, and you probably know more about writing reliable and reproducible tests than those other candidates

sure, you've mostly been working in a different language, and that's a weakness compared to someone who has been focused on just the one language the company uses for the last 2.5 years, but on the other hand knowing more languages is a strength that makes you more flexible as an engineer, and lets you jump into more types of problems

etc

[ionic pawn]

Anyways,how do i pick a college,i dont know for where in the us i want to or will be

[vapid jay]

You are absolutely right there, I just need to be confident about it

[summer roost]

Computer Engineering isn't my area, and I grew up in the US, so I don't really have any relevant advice for someone who wants to emigrate to the US to study CE

[ionic pawn]

No,i just need a general location for where i should emigrate

[sage crater]

which ones will suit to be in pair with c++?

[summer roost]

you'll get approximately as good an education at any university, so I don't know that location matters very much.

[summer roost]

Python and C++ get used together pretty often.

[ionic pawn]

Cost of living

[sage crater]

super glad to hear

[ionic pawn]

Then living conditions,rent price

[summer roost]

cost of living is higher in bigger cities, and higher on the coasts than in the middle of the country.

beyond that, though, you'll just need to research.

[sage crater]

what about third one,will go be good?

[ionic pawn]

Mid alaska is the cheapest

[summer roost]

C or Rust or shell might be more useful

[summer roost]

mid Alaska doesn't have any universities, as far as I know. Mid Alaska is basically empty

[ionic pawn]

Its a joke

[sage crater]

isn't rust a parallel to c++? I mean would it really be that useful if I already know c++ to learn rust?

[summer roost]

they're used in similar places, but different companies might use one or the other. Java would also be useful, or possibly even C#.

[mortal wedge]

The problem isn't if there's overlap, the problem is different people at different companies are used to different things and in all likelihood you will be working with people who have already coded part of their libraries in whatever language they preferred. For example, you could make the argument that if you know Python then what's the point of Java, but the point of Java would be if you're working with existing Java code.

(Example: Playstation wants their Python Devs to know Go for some reason)

[ionic pawn]

@summer roost when im looki g at appliying,i gotta add up tuition and fees for 4 years,and undergrad enrollment right

Idk anything about the us education system

[true harness]

usually schools will have some sort of "tuition calculator" which you can put your info into and they'll give you a cost estimate

[ionic pawn]

But i dont know witch one im looking for

@true harness i need to pick a coollege,so i need to know the formula for the cost for a emigrant

The "standard" formula

[true harness]

it's just tuition + living costs. also, you shouldn't pick 1 college to try and apply to. do you have any idea what state/area you want to live in?

[ionic pawn]

No,not really

@true harness

[true harness]

idk how to help you decide that. but it would be best to apply to multiple colleges, that way you have a higher chance to get into at least one

[ionic pawn]

Ima apply to ivies

And into some 90% acceptantpce rate ones too

[ebon elk]

😂 You didn't read the article.

The finite land aspect is built into these games, so it is essentially a simulation of real life realestate/land market with autonomous actors (the players)

[analog sun]

I think further discussion of that theory is off-topic for this channel

[ebon elk]

Here is a good article that explains the rent-seeking of universities: https://www.heritage.org/insider/fall-2019-insider/the-rent-seeking-campus

Exactly my gripe. Being forced to take irrelevant classes to you major and being forced to pay for it.

I see bootcamps as modern-day guilds where those who are in the industry or have exp in it teach their skills to others and do so by way of projects which is an education by doing.

I don't think university is a complete waste, it's just over valued, too expensive monetarily and time put in (due to the unrelated but mandatory classes included in the degree).

[ebon elk]

Car insurance companies gather economic rents due to car insurance being compulsory by governments.

As for commuting in general, I think companies should pay you for your commute time as that is your time still dedicated to work, it just happens to be getting to and from. I think this should especially be so for those roles that can be done 100% remotely. Companies not compensating their employees for commute time has less to do with economic rent though than just being inconsiderate of their employees time.

[vapid jay]

is it even worth it to get a job as a python dev?

[ebon elk]

Why wouldn't it be?

[vapid jay]

it's a "beginner" language

like, wouldn't it be better to learn something more complicated and get a higher paying job?

[ebon elk]

But it's a powerful one and plenty of big projects are done with it

[vapid jay]

i'm asking from a perspective of a high school student learning python from a udemy course

[ebon elk]

If you see a role that uses it and it's a project that interests you, why not go for it?

[vapid jay]

yeah ig

[ebon elk]

Oh, keep learning. It's a language worth knowing, and it's a good place to start.

[gilded valley]

This is now an ideological discussion and very distant from careers. Preferably move to #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval

[smoky quest]

I want to prefix the following by saying I appreciate the effort to provide links, but Wow heritage.org is toxic. I wouldn't suggest to use it as a source for anything.

What you describe isn't much different than apprenticeship in general and is not specific to bootcamps.
The trick is to find the right balance between the theory and the practice.

[smoky quest]

It's a language accessible to beginners but yet used throughout multiple industries.
So it's very much worth learning

[vapid jay]

i mean, i'm not gonna stop learning no matter what

even if it won't prove useful in getting a job, it's a really powerful personal tool

[gentle kite]

heh, you think python can't be complicated? 😛

[jagged glade]

python is commonly used for machine learning, and that's a field that's both rather complicated and very high paying

[vapid jay]

as in, readability? project complexity?

[gentle kite]

both

[vapid jay]

readability - yeah, kinda
complexity - it can be used for anything, but it is not as widely used in the real world

[gentle kite]

Python is among the most used languages in the world

[vapid jay]

well, anything is an overstatement, but all high level stuff

[paper ferry]

I currently work as a SOC analyst and have always had an interest in coding. I know a tiny bit of basic Python and Java. Are there any applications for Python that would be useful in cyber security? I know that some in pentesting use it, but I'm naive of its other uses

[vapid jay]

and it's a field i'm not really interested in

[gentle kite]

Yeah you're obviously not gonna write a kernel module or a driver for an IOT device in plain python

[dense mesa]

This is such a US-centric thing as well lol

[vapid jay]

like, cool and all, just not my thing

[vapid jay]

i mean, i had this idea once - hardware python interpreter + literally everything down to the bios and kernel made in python

[dense mesa]

The whole discussion above sounds like someone's word of the day was "economic rent" and they had to throw it into every sentence

[vapid jay]

this would mean your entire pc is open source and everything is infinitely modular

[dense mesa]

Yes, it is

[smoky quest]

I am not that familiar with the US way to set the standard for a BS/MS, but in the EU country where I come from, the curriculum is set by the state with the collaboration between teachers, researchers and members of the industry.
They would not put some classes without a justification

[dense mesa]

It's extremely useful for getting a job

[vapid jay]

good to know

[dense mesa]

It is commonly used in the "real world" by very large companies (not that that's a brilliant litmus test but to give you an idea)

[dense mesa]

Same with the UK, no need to waste time on other modules

[gentle kite]

steFFan, what you need to remember about programming languages is that as soon as you leave the beginner stage of your learnings and slowly move towards higher seniorities, you realise that a programming language is essentially just three things: 1) syntax, 2) language features that will let you shoot yourself in the foot, 3) language features that will help your project

This goes for C, C#, C++, Java, JavaScript, Python, Haskell, Groovy, and all the other ones in between and around

[vapid jay]

4.performance and interpreted/compiled

but yeah, i know that already

[dense mesa]

If only performance was that simple 🙂

[gentle kite]

With this in mind, Python is just like all the other popular languages: a tool that lets you solve a problem and lets you do it in a way that isn't possible with other languages.
So while simple Python is simple, complex Python is not.

also: a language is not performance nor is it a compiling or an interpretation...

[vapid jay]

you can't compile python and that limits its use case

[gentle kite]

Performance and compiled/interpreted are language details/features that, like I said, allows you to both shoot yourself in the foot and also save your sanity

[dense mesa]

This is definitively not the case

[vapid jay]

well, yeah

[gentle kite]

It doesn't limit its use-cases at all - what do you mean?

[vapid jay]

no company would ever make a desktop app with python

[gentle kite]

That's not true

[honest pivot]

haha

[vapid jay]

interesting, python is a lot better than i thought

this is semi-unrelated, but what does vw need python for?

[summer roost]

Most developers need to know multiple languages, and most real-world roles require multiple languages. If you're still in high school, I'd strongly recommend pursuing a Computer Science or Software Engineering degree if you're interested in working as a software developer.

[ebon elk]

To avert your source bias:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/30025272

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2018/09/universities-now-giant-rent-seeking-businesses/

[vapid jay]

if it proves necessary to get a degree i'll do it

[summer roost]

desktop apps are the very tip of the software iceberg. Desktop apps make up only a very tiny portion of the software market.

[vapid jay]

but it kinda wastes 5 years of my life

[summer roost]

it absolutely does not.

[vapid jay]

just an example

[summer roost]

second time I'm linking this today, but: #pedagogy message

[vapid jay]

you don't know what polish schools look like

[summer roost]

true, I don't, and I don't know much about the Polish job market. It could be that my perspective (based on the US/EU/UK) is less relevant there.

[vapid jay]

(poland is eu)

[summer roost]

yes, sorry - I realize that, poor choice of words. It's not a country that I'm as familiar with (I know more about some of the larger countries in western Europe)

though so far as I know, it tends to be harder to break into software dev without a degree in countries with a less developed software industry. From my (limited) anecdotal experience, in countries where the total amount of software jobs is lower, degrees are valued even more highly.

[vapid jay]

i know getting a degree will make my job search considerably easier, but it's -5 years out of the ~80 i get

[summer roost]

understand that "considerably" might mean 100x.

[vapid jay]

(statistically less than 80 because male and going into adulthood during recession)

[summer roost]

you'd need to do research on your local job market to find out what proportion of software developers have degrees, how long it takes someone with a degree to surpass someone without one in salary, how having a degree affects opportunities and mobility, etc

[vapid jay]

how long it takes someone with a degree to surpass someone without one in salary
wouldn't that be... instantly?

[near ocean]

Pretty much for 99% of the cases

[summer roost]

It could be. Your comparison point would be someone with a degree but no experience, vs someone with 4 years of experience but no degree.

[vapid jay]

provided i'm even gonna work in this field for 4 years

[summer roost]

I'd suspect that the person with a degree would be paid more, or would become paid more within a year or two at worst.

[vapid jay]

5 years* because poland

[summer roost]

is it a possibility that you wouldn't?

[vapid jay]

a huge one at that

[dense mesa]

I'm very happy to continue this in off topic seem you seem very persistent in convincing people of this:

Linking a journal article to an econ/polsci journal, where the "article" is literally just a preamble without any data or evidence, is not getting rid of a source bias

[summer roost]

please take it off-topic. It's pretty clearly not on topic in this channel.

[vapid jay]

nothing left to say tbh

[dense mesa]

Just wanted to mention that last point since it may be confusing to others considering uni/no uni

[summer roost]

why is that?

[vapid jay]

unless that wasn't to me

[summer roost]

it wasn't, it was to Anz

[vapid jay]

a good answer to this would involve getting way deep into my life plan, so let's just say i'm not the "get job, do job for 40 years, die" type

you guys love those question mark emojis

but for real, isn't that what most people do?

[dense mesa]

No

Where do you get this idea from?

[vapid jay]

life experiences

so how else would you summarize the life of an average person?

[dense mesa]

You can't just summarise someone's life, and you asking that is why people are giving the advice they're giving

[summer roost]

for starters, most people don't stay in one job for 40 years - the average tenure at a job for a software developer (at least in the US) is around 2 years

[vapid jay]

then they get another job in the same field, and continue doing mostly the same thing

[summer roost]

perhaps, but hopefully something that they find more fulfilling, or a more interesting challenge, or whatever.

for another, many developers (at least in the US) are able to retire after significantly less than 40 years of work

for yet another, most people think of their friends and family and hobbies as being a substantially bigger part of their life story than their job.

[vapid jay]

and i am not most people

[summer roost]

sure, but you asked:

so how else would you summarize the life of an average person?

[dense mesa]

Think critically about why you think this based on the experiences you have had compared to others

[summer roost]

your summary was bad. Most people would not summarize their lives the way you did.

[vapid jay]

guess i did, huh

[paper ferry]

Just bumping this to see if anyone has input. Basically just asking what applications Python can have in cyber security outside of pentesting (I currently work as a SOC analyst)

[brazen trail]

python is arguably better than bash in many ways at gluing stuff together, so I could imagine it being really useful for cybersecurity

[regal agate]

most tools of kali are using python

[mild wraith]

hi, i have an internship but they dont expect too much so i learned little to nothing. i know basic python and thats it. im trying to decide what to study front end or backend. ive researched other cs careers but those interest me the most. im not ready to apply for an internship right now. i want to spend hours this summer studying either frontend or backend.i have all day during the summer so its not an issue. how can i get started, sorry if this isnt the right place to ask

[ripe pagoda]

any data engineers in the chat avail for a quick qna

[sudden nymph]

What worked best for me is 1) find books in the frameworks/langs you like (that are hands-on) and 2) Work on a project you’re passionate about within those frameworks

Does anyone have suggestions on how to get the first cs job? I got 3 projects, will be 5 in 3-4 weeks. I’m also attending networking events, will do 2 hackathons next month, and sending about 15 applications per day. Any other suggestions? I’ve heard reach out to networkers, but all the ones on LinkedIn I’m barred from.

[vapid jay]

Is there a full stack development course that anyone recommends?

[mild wraith]

what framework is best for a sample project

[sudden nymph]

What languages do you want to learn?

[smoky quest]

with regards to internships, welcome to the adult life 😉
There won't be anyone checking on you, there won't be your mum/dad pushing you and no one will care if you grow or not or if you do something interesting or not. Whether they have high or low expectations of you during your internship does not matter to them as it won't impact them in any way.

There are no predetermined paths and that means that it's up to you to make the best of every opportunity you get. In the context of your internship, that means it's on you to ask for more, to be concerned about the expectations and to set yourself up for success.

Note: I extrapolated a lot based on your single sentence and you may already be well aware of these facts, but I wanted to get it out there in case.

[split oasis]

@smoky quest you are amonster 😭 (?

[smoky quest]

The bright side is that the sky is the limit

[split oasis]

anyway I already graduated

😭 no more internships for me I think

[smoky quest]

congrats!

[split oasis]

thank you!

[buoyant seal]

Work passionately 70-80% of time
Reading books the rest of time
Reading probably first, then work xD
Often better work first too

[delicate bane]

literally this. my internship last semester was what i made of it. they only really had me do 1 project, but i pushed out stuff for 4 projects. part of it was to learn and part of it was my work ethic. top notch work for all projects too.

they were super impressed and said they want to create a full time position for me ||but we shall see if that actually happens or not...meanwhile i will continue to interview lol||

at the very least, i learned a ton. especially working with different stakeholders and different teams

which wouldnt have happened if i didnt take initiative myself. ||(which i sometimes see in other interns)||

[light radish]

Do you have a degree? Any internships? What languages/technologies do you know the most?

[sudden nymph]

Associate’s, and I know Java, Python, SQL, HTML/CSS and JavaScript

[rotund crest]

I don’t know if this is off topic - I’m not sure what kind of computers people expect to get in other companies with a programming related role but I am constantly being given the worst machinery ever to do my job.

[buoyant seal]

It depends on what is your programming field... And company

[rotund crest]

I feel like this must be a red flag at this point but I unironically cannot tell if I am just spoiled by having the privilege of being able to purchase what I want on my own in a non corporate environment

[buoyant seal]

I am backend Dev, I relatively don't care about PC, as long as it has at least two screens, 16 RAM, at least 4-6 Intel i3 threads, and SSD with at least 256 GB
Preferably to have Logitech keyboard, and screens with at least 23 inches size.
And big enough mouse in order to be not having tunneling syndrome

And most importantly comfortable computer chair for really long term work

[buoyant seal]

xD I am switching to remote work, I will have what I will setup

[rotund crest]

I am not really a programmer, I mostly do Monte Carlo simulations of SDEs but they gave me a lot less than what you described.

After complaining , they recently upgraded my computer from having 8 GB of ram and 20 GB of free HD space to still 8 GB of ram and 105 GB of free HD space. It is still not an SSD.

[buoyant seal]

The last job did not satisfy only my screen desires (the two screens were a bit small)
The previous job before that, had initially stuff crappy, but then I salvaged all available hardware from fired colleagues and it became good

Initially at first job, I had crappy pentium processor with 4-8 RAM and one screen

I was salvaging first available hardware in gradually improving it

But oh well I was beginning that job as intern and finished as middle

[rotund crest]

Thanks for the input - it sounds like what I have isn’t atypical from your own experience at least. I just find it a bit ridiculous because a few hundred dollars in parts would pay for itself in a week.

[buoyant seal]

Sounds like my first job. In similar position was Figma designer, because she was not seen as important in boss eyes, and he was how to say that.... Thinking that women aren't supposed to work in IT at all

It was crappy startup. It was beneficial to me at least when I grew in the rank

Her Figma program required at least 16 ram(preferably 32) to work efficiently
I think she was not given even 8, or may be she had only 8

[buoyant seal]

My first job pc was better only in amount of HDD memory, in all other aspects it sounds exactly same
It had really weak CPU
But oh well, I was intern/junior in crappy company

I am Linux user, I don't require a lot from PC. Just having 16 RAM is usually enough
My home PC is another story though.
And having better PC is still better to run tests faster

[rotund crest]

I think I’ll just deal with the situation and not complain - but it is almost lunch time here and it is catered so I should get ready to snipe the best food.

I’m pretty sure if I were allowed to just transfer confidential files to my home PC I could run the same simulations in 5 minutes what takes me 2 and a half hours.

[buoyant seal]

Try to get access in salvaging other pc components
And build your own happiness

Improve PC by each detail xD

[buoyant seal]

Is there an option to be just bringing your laptop?

[sage crater]

Distro?

[buoyant seal]

I use Kubuntu. Ubuntu is good in everything related to console installations except its GUI, I think it sucks. Kubuntu is official Ubuntu with KDE Plasma GUI, it is really comfortable

Ideal for any web developer, which develops for Linux servers.

[sage crater]

I'm on Fedora, learning c++ and python,will fedora restrict my developers potential?

[true harness]

no

[buoyant seal]

A bit. U will not have ability to use Microsoft visual studio if u liked it. Which is powerful tool for C++. But it really depends on what kind of stuff do u wish to develop

In general it is nice to be at far distance from Windows and macOS. They aren't Dev friendly even close to linux

But if u aim to develop for Windows or macOS, better to use them as Dev env too

[sage crater]

So I can't develop on linux for windows?

[buoyant seal]

It is possible, but it includes additional level of complexity which can be fought only with properly set CI pipeline, testing, and carefully planned architecture isolated layers
It would be cool to make crossplatform program from the beginning

But in generic case it will be far easier to do it from Windows. Less hustle

[sage crater]

Yeah crossplatform is a great solution

But I guess it takes a lot of resources

[buoyant seal]

Depending on the used stuff it can be much easier to make it crossplatform

Like Minecraft, by default works everywhere xD

Or I just work in web, I develop for Linux servers and I get crossplatform solutions by design

[light radish]

On LinkedIn change your title to “Software Developer” and list all your projects on your LinkedIn page. If recruiters ask who you work for tell them you are an independent contractor. You can BS and say the projects you completed were for some clients too.

Also change your LinkedIn to “open to work” if not already done. Apply everywhere. If you are a US citizen you should be getting at least 2 calls from recruiters a day.

Make sure your resume looks like the top ones on Reddit and LinkedIn needs to be looking good as well.

[gentle kite]

It's never a good idea to lie, but often a good idea to only tell part of the whole story

You could say that you, as an independent contractor, made some projects, but don't lie about them being for clients if they are not.

[smoky quest]

that's so easy to catch, I wouldn't recommend to try it. (besides the lack of professionalism and trust)

[thick drum]

Any quants here?

[sudden nymph]

How should I phrase this?

[smoky quest]

Were you an independent contractor?

[near ocean]

you should just ask your questions otherwise you're probably never going to get any responses

[ocean sandal]

I actually took your advice and updated my profile to show I'm a freelancer/independent contractor as to not appear as a total jobless bum. It's notoriously unsteady work so it should check out

[smoky quest]

be aware that interviewers aren't stupid. They know what it means 😉

[thick drum]

Thank you 👍 "I don't know what I don't know" have some basic entry level knowledge, was looking for more advanced resources.

Will form some more specific questions

[sudden nymph]

Yeah

[smoky quest]

Then you could phrase it with a summary of the type of work you were doing for most of your customers

[delicate bane]

all it takes is a couple questions. i can already think of some...

[ocean sandal]

I just tried it today and it went well. "I'm currently doing freelance work but it's been extremely unsteady lately so I'm looking for something more consistent."

[light radish]

I’ll be your “client”

[smoky quest]

fyi, no one cares about that part and the interviewer hasn't learned anything meaningful and thus likely to remain neutral. You just gave rope to hang yourself out with later
Interviewees are humans and have lives. So that means you may see candidates that had to take care of family members, had accidents or whatever. So the why you are doing it is just about fielding red flags and giving color to your context.
Edit: english is hard

[honest pivot]

I wouldn't judge someone just for being out of a job at the moment

[ocean sandal]

I think in my case it might be more damaging to explain the reason I left my previous workplace if asked and the freelance part might be neutral enough to where it disguises it without a need to explain or risk of oversharing anything. Not everyone is chill or understanding about someone's situation

[smoky quest]

You obviously don't want to scare the interviewer.
But there is a grand canyon between lying and presenting yourself in a good light (and not volunteering out information that hurt you)

[ocean sandal]

I've only had one interviewer this far who was chill about what happened in my situation when asked because he went through the same thing dealing with a similar toxic work environment. Normally I can tell it does scare them a bit as it opens the door for more questions

[smoky quest]

of course, any interviewer would want to get more details to understand better if it's you or them.
But you can keep it simple and not mention the scary part. Turning it into positives is also a way to go about it (ex: "looking for more challenges", "this opportunity looks so interesting", etc.)

[ocean sandal]

I guess the main thing is I want to avoid saying I was terminated from that position. You propose it'd be better if I lied or stretched the truth saying I left the company to look for more challenges... etc. etc. opposed to pretending to be a struggling freelancer?

[novel pine]

Pretty sure they can check with your past employer to find out if you were fired or left so I'm not sure I would recommend.

[smoky quest]

I just want to bring a more nuanced view and that is not always easy to follow.
On one hand, you don't want to lie. That's a hard constraint as the consequences are pretty bad for you and that would be pretty unethical.
On the other hand, you also should not volunteer anything that would hurt your chances. So you could literally say anything in between and that would be fine. The more embellished/untrue, the more chances for you to be caught lying or raising some flags.

As a concrete example, if you were to tell me you have been freelancing, I might ask you about:

• How it went?
• How you found clients?
• Why you think you were struggling?
• One deep dive in one of your client's work
• What are the lessons learned from your struggle?
• How do you contrast freelancing from regular work?

And if you tell me you haven't found any client in 6 months or isn't prepared for any of these questions, that would not necessarily reflect very well on you either.
I understand not everyone would ask all of this and some companies may not even ask you to code during interviews, but not all companies are great either 😉

which goes back to my initial point: the further from the truth, the more in trouble you can put yourself in

[novel pine]

Risk versus reward there is also the 80/20 principle which says 80 percent of the benefits come from 20 percent of something.

[ocean sandal]

Exactly yeah like I've always been honest before when asked because I know it can be verified. I've noticed they only ever ask about recent employment though so I figured if I'm currently freelancing and make it sound kind of uneventful they won't really dig into it

[split oasis]

Do you know of a good job for a problem solver?

[smoky quest]

that's most of computer science 🙂

[novel pine]

If not all

[split oasis]

I can learn anything, but I am slow. So, I need something that requires a lot of brain and very little muscle

[novel pine]

Depends on what you like doing.

[split oasis]

I like learning conceptual stuff

Programming is really easy for me, so yeah I was thinking about becoming some sort of programmer

[smoky quest]

Look at how politicians avoid annoying questions.
They just focus on some other positive or just not mention the topic.

[split oasis]

Even though I majored in physics and math

You guys know of a company that would adopt a conceptual/logical thinker to be a programmer?

[brave briar]

Yeah, but u gotta learn to be a programmer first 😉

[split oasis]

What I am trying to communicate is that I haven't specialized on anything but that would be no problem for me. I am used to learning things that use your brain intensively.

I just don't want to specialize in something I am not needed.

[ocean sandal]

I think I'll just avoid mentioning it from now on and if they ask then I'll change the subject and start excitedly talking about something positive to throw them off

[split oasis]

I guess expecting to be trained is a little to much? 😅

[smoky quest]

Most companies will train you, but may have more issues with teaching you.

[split oasis]

Oh well, I guess that's it then (?

[smoky quest]

If you being able to learn about programming on your own is a show stopper, then yes

[split oasis]

Hey I know how to program 😂

[smoky quest]

That's why most routes are:

• college/university
• bootcamps
• self-learning

[split oasis]

I just don't know anything practical

[smoky quest]

make projects on your own and build a portfolio you can use to get attention and talk about and show during interviews

[split oasis]

Yeah, I am thinking of developing few bots and a small game... Stuff I am personally interested in

[smoky quest]

as long as they include the demonstrated skills you want for your role, anything goes

[delicate bane]

another apprenticeship opportunity for those from non-traditional backgrounds:

https://app.onramp.io/ts/role/6273e7dbb8fd5d001677c2fb

The Twitch x Onramp Data Science Apprenticeship provides candidates with the rigorous skills training and support they need to launch a successful data science career. At Onramp, learning and growth are incorporated directly into the application. We provide training plans to help you prepare for the technical assessment and materials to help you put your best foot forward in the application itself. Did you attend a data science bootcamp, take community college courses, or learn online? This could be the perfect opportunity for you!

[split oasis]

that's the deal, I don't really expect to end up working on anything related

[smoky quest]

so what's the point then?

It's like saying "I want to be a professional tennis player, and I will practice swimming for that"

[split oasis]

no, I don't want to be anything

[smoky quest]

so what do you want to be?

[split oasis]

I am a physics and math major... economics minor, have learned psychology stuff and computer science stuff

Computer science stuff is the easiest for me (no offense to anyone who finds it challenging) so I thought I could work on it solving problems for whoever needs me

[smoky quest]

it doesn't work like that.
It's supply and demand. And solving problem is what everyone does. You would not bring more than any other candidate

[split oasis]

That's why I am not trying to be like any other candidate

[smoky quest]

I fear you are trying to supply something that no one is asking for

[split oasis]

I am afraid that is so

I feel like I am playing the "I am pretty, hire me" card 😂

[smoky quest]

lol it does a bit

[split oasis]

My plan was going to gradschool and study more physics, math and information theory stuff... but since I am not aiming for any particular job I thought to pause my education for a bit and try to make money now

[smoky quest]

I think it may be worth narrowing down the type of problems you want to solve. That will help you build the relevant context and knowledge around it so that it makes you more attractice

[split oasis]

Yeah, I am still trying to figure out my niche. Programming is the only field where I felt confident I could adapt to any job in a decent time, but perhaps I should drop that plan and narrow down on something I really want to do... as soon as I find what that something is 😂

[smoky quest]

if you are pausing your education for a bit, it means that whatever job would just be temporary. So might as well use that opportunity to try new things and explore. It's not like you are building a career out of it

[split oasis]

Oh you are right... I wonder if I could be a detective 🤔

[smoky quest]

I didn't mean it that far out, but sure.

[split oasis]

well... to be fair I did consider something "close to home" like this https://g.co/kgs/B4CFkq

B.S. in physics and mathematics is listed and then they have the word 'learn': "We are looking for a highly motivated software engineer with a strong math background who is interested in learning about mathematical modeling for semiconductor processing."

I am already applying for that 😂 although you probably meant explore things on my own

@delicate bane 😂

[inner wren]

Hey @worn atlas!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.pdf). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[worn atlas]

Is my resume strong enough to get any analytics job or anything related to data science?

[buoyant seal]

Not bad, I think quite possible

[smoky quest]

• Since you don't have any work experience, put your education first
• You have a typo at Clusterin
• Web scraping is bold. I don't think you meant it
• Order your skills by your strongest ones
• If you have your projects on github, put a link to them (and make sure they are clean and nice)
• Information relative to your projects could also be interesting, such as size of your dataset, how you got them to the inference stage, etc.

[honest pivot]

Physics majors are usually terrible coders. I say this as a physics PhD.

[split oasis]

Ahaha this is true

Although I was a computer science drop out when I switched to physics 😅

I was super bored with CS and wanted a challenge, but something boring because it's easy should be appropriate to make money

[smoky quest]

the challenge in CS is not the writing code part. It's everything around it though

[honest pivot]

I think if you think it is easy, then there are gaps in your knowledge you are unaware of

[split oasis]

could be, all I know is that it feels easy

[honest pivot]

I think the most impressive resume I've seen recently ranked themselves as "intermediate" in programming languages. Any time someone gives themselves five stars, it turns out they know practically nothing.

[split oasis]

well, I am not looking for a challenge, just moneis

[smoky quest]

I can find plenty of bootcamps to piss code 😉

[split oasis]

to piss code?

[smoky quest]

"code monkey", "pissing code", "sprout out code". Basically writing code as a trivial activity

[split oasis]

aaah*

[smoky quest]

https://www.techopedia.com/definition/31469/code-monkey

[split oasis]

Well, I don't know how to explain this, but you guys are right in that I still don't know most of it

[smoky quest]

That's because you haven't really found a problem that interests you. That goes back to our discussion from earlier about trying out things

Take for instance the job ad you showed earlier. There is some math involved and the rabbit hole can go pretty deep

[split oasis]

Ah, math is my easiest thing but I don't know how to make money with it

[smoky quest]

math is a tool, not an end in itself.
Take cryptography. There are tons of things to build and do with cryptography. It leverages math and math will help a lot. But the math themselves aren't an end to it, just a tool at its service

same could go with many other subfields of CS

[zealous junco]

Traceback (most recent call last):
File "main.py", line 5, in <module>
from mails import GetDiscordEmail, GetEmail
ModuleNotFoundError: No module named 'mails'
How do I fix it

[smoky quest]

you should check out #❓｜how-to-get-help .
Spamming channels won't help you

[split oasis]

Yes but most things require very little math... I feel like I wouldn't be able to bring any attention to myself

[smoky quest]

I just cited one very heavy math subfield

math is everywhere

[split oasis]

Yeah but like... I feel like there are more than enough people with good enough math skills in those areas

[smoky quest]

what makes you think there are enough of them?

[near ocean]

Theres enough "good enough" people of all skills in all areas

[honest pivot]

Do you think with an undergraduate degree in physics that your math skills are notable?

[smoky quest]

sounds to me that you are more bored than anything. You haven't found what area resonates with you (it's an opportunity, not a problem)

[split oasis]

Not sure what makes me think that other than seeing people doing just fine with college math classes that were full of students in Uni

[smoky quest]

We aren't talking about others. We are talking about you.
Obviously, there will always be more demand for wordpress/shopify devs. But that does not negate the need for more complex roles. Until you change your views and want to investigate what gets your interest, I fear you will continue to be in that state of disregarding potential areas

[split oasis]

Well I also have a major in math but yeah I don't think I would be notable

[left socket]

I am not sure what Maths skills mean here.

[split oasis]

Okay I am going to tell you what really interests me... It has to do with Quantum information and I wanted to do that in gradschool... but it's a field in development and unless I commit to working in academia I don't know how I would make money with it and I don't want to be a professor 😭

[smoky quest]

haha great! Getting somewhere!
There was some news about IBM promising some machines by 2025 but as of today, quantum isn't really available nor useful for most of the industry. That said, I am sure there are some jobs related to it if you look long enough for them

[honest pivot]

Quantum computing is a growing industry and ideally you need a PhD to get into it, although sometimes a master's is enough if you are strong in the right areas.

[left socket]

Jobs with just mainly research is a thing. But yea, typically need a PhD for those.

[split oasis]

What I really want is to come up with information theoretic foundations for mathematical models like physics, using binary neuro networks to define concepts and rules for processing information

It's very theoretical and I just really love that, don't feel like I want to make it a job

[honest pivot]

It sounds like you want to go into academia, but it's hard to tell your level of commitment. It's not easy to finish a PhD.

[split oasis]

my stupid plan was to become rich on my own and then study this

[smoky quest]

if it was that easy, that would be a lot more frequent 😉

[honest pivot]

Have you looked around to find which physics departments might be researching something similar? Or maybe computer science departments, I'm not sure what angle you're going for. You should talk to any professors you know about research. You should try to get an idea what the literature looks like in similar topics to what you're thinking of.

[split oasis]

now that you mention it, perhaps this is what I should be doing... I am so afraid of finding out that I don't actually want to do that that I haven't looked in depth into it

If I found out that it isn't as I imagined it, then... I would feel so lost

[honest pivot]

I did academic research in fundamental physics for like 10 years. It was fun for me, but not an easy road.

[split oasis]

Physics is not easy for me... Too much Jargon, and a lot of memorization is expected

[honest pivot]

Everything has jargon

[split oasis]

Yeah but you know... I really had a hard time understanding what my professors were saying in class

And the worse part was when we moved to the next topic and I was expected to not forget anything of the new stuff that I didn't even understand

Now that I graduated I see that physics is really simple but it's taught in ways that made no sense for my brain

eh I don't know about that

is it because you start to specialize?

[honest pivot]

There's jargon and there's technical language. I don't think there's a clear dividing line. In my case, there's definitely more and more the further you go.

[split oasis]

Oh my, I am at the second level at best... although I don't even remember most things now 😂

I might not even be in that pyramid

[honest pivot]

No one is at one level in that pyramid. Academic research is being in all levels at the same time.

[split oasis]

well that was the case for my physics classes, but they kinda explained things with the Jargon and when they tried to explain things without it they didn't make sense either... and then I would forget what the Jargon even meant

Stage? It was in Uni

Well... I have forgotten to mention that I am very neurodivergent

Things that are easy for most people... even for most people with mental disorders, can be really hard for me

My physics classmates seemed to do fine with remembering everything we learned

So, perhaps this is even more anecdotal and only applies to me

That's why I exaggerate when something is easy for me. It makes me happy because most things aren't 😂

Anyway this isn't a channel about Harlock, sorry for making it about me 😅

@smoky questand thank you for being so helpful when I was staying on topic

[shadow mountain]

anyone here that learned on python 2.x ?

or am I the only one

[near ocean]

i've definitely seen uni slides in 2.7 i had to adapt to non-dinosaur age python

[honest pivot]

I originally learned Python 2.5 or something like that. Thankfully forgot and then relearned in the modern era.

Actually no, I just checked the version history and I must have originally learned Python 2.0

[brittle jetty]

;

[sage crater]

Math is the easiest... God knows how much I envy you

[gilded valley]

If maths really is something you find easy, do a masters degree at a top university and then apply to jobs in quantitative finance

[vital wolf]

how to create good resume?

[near ocean]

write a simple, short, descriptive resume where you list out contact info, experience, personal projects and education, ideally in that order
simple, so its easy to read, doesnt trip up any automated systems and doesnt make you look like youre trying too hard to style a word doc
short, 1 page ideally so the hiring manager doesnt throw it away for being too long to go through
there are templates online where you can get an idea of how to structure the resume and what kind of wording to include

[near remnant]

if the leader of the dev team sent me an email with a web meeting link with a note: "let's talk about your project(s) and the next steps", should I be positive about it? i had a call with him before and he basically told me that we need to do a "formal meeting / conversation thing" before I can start.

i'm a bit confused tho

[near ocean]

why would you be negative about this

[near remnant]

im not, actually it seems like 'its already in the bag"

[vital wolf]

tool to create resume?

[near ocean]

word? latex?

[vital wolf]

word

[dense mesa]

https://latexresu.me

[peak halo]

I recommend latex + git for resumes because it lets you easily keep track of slight changes you might make when applying for different positions. or if you want to keep track of which resume you sent for which position.

which might be overkill, but it's good practice if you want to improve your latex and git skills.

[vital wolf]

can u share any resume samples

[nimble salmon]

Yo guys how are you

I am currently doing a Beng in Electronic Eng (I'll specify in AI), do you think its worth taking an abeyance(pause) for a few years to do a data science apprenticeship

[near ocean]

no

why would you pause your degree in a strong stem subject just to do some apprenticeship

[dense mesa]

I can see why you'd consider it, but why not finish the degree?

[nimble salmon]

I always wanted to gain the electrical part and wanted to implement it with data science, + in my final year I'd need to build a project so I'll be better equipped for that too

[dense mesa]

Are you studying electrical or electronic engineering? And where does AI relate to your degree?

[nimble salmon]

Yes I am, AI is a specification you can take in the final year of your degree( base your final year project on AI)

[dense mesa]

Right, is this electrical or electronic though?

[nimble salmon]

yes

[dense mesa]

...

[nimble salmon]

its both , more so electrical

its an "and" not an or

it depends on what electives you choose, so mine will basically just be an eletronic degree in principle

[dense mesa]

So for EEE, what's the rationale for doing an AI-based project? Data science would be useful for the AI part, unless you're doing something like network analysis/load balancing in the degree

[nimble salmon]

It's basically "integrated machine learning" neural networks , AI in robotics etc etc

[upbeat geode]

Yo does this still count as a CS degree? Im kind of confused between the qualifications

[dense mesa]

Can you link the course structure or something, sounds like buzzwords and not actual content

[dense mesa]

That's not a computer science degree no

[upbeat geode]

Fr?

God damn the other one is almost double the price ripp

[dense mesa]

Probably because it's a computer science degree

[upbeat geode]

It is, its a proper 4 year course too. This you can fast track

[nimble salmon]

its basically second last year " digital systems, signal processing,microcontrollers"
and third year you get electives from "robotics and control systems,digital communications, artificial intelligence systems, and a final year project"

[dense mesa]

Can you link the course

[nimble salmon]

sure

[dense mesa]

Courses that allow fast tracking are usually less academically rigorous

[upbeat geode]

Is this curricula not CS though? Just for context the latter is proper CS

[nimble salmon]

these are the final two years

[upbeat geode]

and honestly I don’t mind that, I just want the stupid paper that says I did it

[nimble salmon]

Idk whether I should complete the course, self study the data science
or Go for the apprenticeship and pause my degree for 1-2 years

[dense mesa]

IT is not CS

[dense mesa]

That looks like the modules at Brunel, in which case if you're able to pause, the apprenticeship might be decent to d

[nimble salmon]

yeah I am not in a rush either, Im like 1-2 years younger than most of my course mates

[dense mesa]

Keep in mind that intelligent systems isn't the same as "traditional AI", especially in an engineering context

You should try and do the apprenticeship as part of a placement

[nimble salmon]

ohhh I see

I just wanted a well all rounded skillset, I

I've realised my passion is for data science, I like hardware asw but I certainly enjoy that more, just want a good blend of both

[dense mesa]

You can go into data science with an engineering degree, it's harder to go into engineering with a data science degree/background

[spark zinc]

is it true the ML is really oversaturated?

ive had ALOT of ppl tell me it is, which scares me

[peak halo]

hmm, I'm not sure that it's oversaturated. there's probably a shortage of experienced and highly-skilled ML experts (I don't purport to be one, and I work in this space). but there aren't very many entry-level positions.

[spark zinc]

all my experience so far is in ML/data science shit, am i fucked?

[near ocean]

Do you have a job in the field?

[peak halo]

yes, what experience are you talking about? if you have a full-time job in DS/AI, you should be good to go, as long as you're working hard and continuing to develop your skills.

if you're a student, have you done any DS/AI internships? because those will make it easier to break in once you graduate. If your coursework has focused on DS/AI, and you can convey this to companies, you might be a competitive applicant for those internships.

[spark zinc]

research position in my uni (im a second year undergrad)

i had a DS offer but i rejected it for this position

im canadian from toronto, if that helps at all

[near ocean]

I would say keep up your grades, and you should be good to go right after graduating then

[spark zinc]

MY GRADES ARE HORRIBLEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

also i just see alot of posts that are like "yea i opened a DS/AI position in my company and i got 900 applicants most of them PhD", what do you guys think ab that? most beneficial for me would be some stats the say the ratio of job seekers to available positions in DS/AI

[dense mesa]

Seems highly exaggerated and nothing like reality

[peak halo]

is your GPA currently below 3 (if you use the 4.0 scale); if not, could you get it back up to there before you graduate? I got the position I have currently with only a bachelors degree and a research position, and no internship. but I did publish.

[brave mortar]

Hello everyone ,need little expert help regarding Big Data technology

So basically my company’s provides me free and unlimited access to pluralsight and coursera content.
I want to study Big data technology but i am not able to pick best course amongst the vast list of courses available.

I am beginer .please help me to curate my learning’s trajectory.

Thanks

[spark zinc]

i have a 3.14 on the 4.0 scale and yes i can get that up alot, this sem was just awful for me

[peak halo]

woo, pi. is your in-major GPA higher than 3.14?

[spark zinc]

what does in major gpa mean?

[peak halo]

your GPA when only courses for the major are included.

[spark zinc]

3.14, we havent had any electives yet lol

[crisp jackal]

Do jobs ask for transcripts

[peak halo]

I had a few interviewers ask for my GPA, but they didn't ask for proof. most interviewers didn't ask for my GPA.

[crisp jackal]

Ok, cus I retook a lot of classes

[near ocean]

They might, mine didnt even ask for grade, i was hired as a graduate

[peak halo]

I imagine if a company wanted some kind of proof, they would just ask for a degree verification, which would just be a document from a university stating what degree you have from them, and nothing else.

[spark zinc]

the thing is im really passionate about like control and stuff and im considering just doing a project in C++ writing a dynamic programming algorithm for an optimal control problem (theres a prof who shares her code online and its all in matlab, thinking i could convert that to C++), but im not sure whats better;

doing a super niche project in C++ or doing ML research

as per my understanding, software roles will often prefer C++ experience over python

[peak halo]

ML employers are probably going to care that you understand ML in itself, independent of the implementation language. but I use Python pretty much exclusively in my workflow, and so do my coworkers.

[spark zinc]

Right but what if I just want like any software eng job that lets me do cool code

[peak halo]

well, that's an option, but I thought you wanted to do ML

[spark zinc]

Ig I wanted to do ML because I thought it had the best chance of getting me a job that would allow me to do cool coding

So I’m down for whatever, my only dislike is front end graphic design stuff

[peak halo]

if all the theoretical math-heavy stuff does not appeal to you, I would encourage you to look somewhere other than ML

[spark zinc]

I lvoe the math stuff, that’s why I got into ML

[smoky quest]

Aim for being a software engineer, not a python engineer, not a ml engineer, not a X engineer.
Even though there will be some specialization at some point

[spark zinc]

Yea that’s my goal, the question is how, which goes back to This

Btw I apologize if my questions get weird or annoying, I have an INSANE headache rn so it’s a lil hard to think clear

[peak halo]

if they want to do ML, their best shot is going to involve taking ML-specific courses while they're still in school

[smoky quest]

That is not mutually exclusive. Most sw schools now have some ML classes or specialization
If they paint themselves in to a corner of ds/ml, then that will be their corner.
Given they don't seem that committed, that may be a safe option.

[jagged delta]

hi there : ) i'm lamiae 15 y.o and i'm learning programmation

[vapid jay]

programmation?

@jagged delta whats that+

[vapid jay]

define cool coding

[smoky quest]

it's french for programming

[vapid jay]

ohhh

[vapid jay]

also do you think being experienced with html css and js (web dev) or being experienced with python (ml,ds etc.) will pay better

because i feel like there are a lot less data scientists and machine learning ppl than web developers so that would pay more

[smoky quest]

the latter requires more skills and thus would end up paying more

[spark zinc]

something that makes me think yk

like using algorithms and stuff

not bullshit QA stuff

[delicate bane]

thats def exaggerated.

but based on my limited linkedin premium experience, many entry level jobs for DS/ML have more than half the applicants be grad students and sometimes half of that half are phd's

so...it is uber competitive for entry level positions in that field

[honest pivot]

Yeah I think most STEM PhDs who leave academia are going into some flavor of AI/ML

[delicate bane]

there should be a name for this phenomenon but ive always been very bad with coming up with names

[honest pivot]

It's called "being super good at math already so it's really easy to pick up a specific application, especially if there's potentially good money involved"

[smoky quest]

How is your linkedin premium? Is it worth it?

[nimble salmon]

This is because data science is a relatively new degree and was rarely taught at bachelors, so most of the guys you see are people from other fields who are expert in that relevant data bridging into data science

[spark zinc]

But which one of these should I do? And is it true that C++ experience is much more in demand for SWE roles?

[nimble salmon]

What are the career you are aiming for

Is the *

[delicate bane]

yes yes but we need a cool name to create even more buzzwords in tech

[spark zinc]

Any SWE role that pays well and is in demand and not over saturated

[nimble salmon]

well nowadays for industry you essentially need a mix of languages that are relevant to your own field, SWE is a very broad term in this context cuz we don't know what software you are working on

[delicate bane]

ive found it very valuable. but you can always cancel if you dont like the service

[dense mesa]

I did the free trial and it was definitely worth it while I was looking for work, doesn't seem too useful for a regular user beyond that

[nimble salmon]

could you outline some features it has

[smoky quest]

language is a tool, a mean to an end, Not an end in itself.
So depending on the role, C++ might be completely irrelevant or very relevant

[dense mesa]

Being able to see which jobs I had the best chance of applying for was decent

[delicate bane]

i think it might be more useful for those on the hiring side

[smoky quest]

Got it!
Thanks @delicate bane and @dense mesa !

[spark zinc]

Thing is I’ve been told that C++ is way faster hence preferred by most SWE roles

[delicate bane]

[smoky quest]

not necessarily

[nimble salmon]

it is indeed faster but that

[dense mesa]

Both the assumption and conclusion don't make sense

[delicate bane]

[spark zinc]

[nimble salmon]

that is only noticeable in certain circumstances, but nowadays I've seen some guys use some conversion libraries that does this

[spark zinc]

I am but a little baby in the SWE world

[smoky quest]

You can have shitty code regardless of the language.
The faster path would be to bypass software and go into hardware directly
There is more than one metric for speed

Some languages can be faster than c++ in some benchmarks and context (rust, C, java, etc.)

[nimble salmon]

basically your mix depends on what you aim for, for example if you are aiming for web development or app development, it even changes from ios to android so no one is expected to know all languages lol, unless you are Elliot Alderson from Mr robot

[smoky quest]

You have to consider many factors in regards to projects, such as costs, migration, what is already in use, ecosystem of the language, cost of maintenance, cost of readability, deployment (and migrations), compliance, observability/monitoring, etc.
So only looking at an assumed raw speed would only be looking at a single facet of a problem and ignoring the rest. That's why most mobile apps and website aren't in assembly

[spark zinc]

I see, so wiuld you guys say I’m ok if I just stay in my current position doing ML research, focus like a mfer on that, and not do any side projects in C++? Bc this position is very demanding tbh

Like I’ll grind leetcode but that’s it

[nimble salmon]

it really depends on what kind of data you are handling but as far as ik you should know python/R to actually perform the ML

[smoky quest]

Ask yourself:

• What benefit do I get by doing X?
• What benefit do I get by not doing X?

[spark zinc]

Ok hmmm so

The benefit I get is that it’ll make me look good for ML jobs

The downside is I’ll be under competitive for jobs that require C++

[smoky quest]

right. So then, do you care about jobs that require C++?

[spark zinc]

Depends on if they are the ones in more demand or not

[smoky quest]

are they in demand?

[spark zinc]

They are yea

But the thing is, idk if I should focus on a C++ project or my ML research and I can only do one bc of the time commitment

So I wanna work w the language more in demand ig

[smoky quest]

Either choice is valid and it depends on your objective. If your objective is to get a job that requires C++, then that would bring more benefits

[smoky quest]

In my area, C++ is very much not in demand. That would be more python/java/javascript

[nimble salmon]

do you do web development ?

[spark zinc]

Area as in field or geological area?

[smoky quest]

I do a lot of things, but that I am referring to the US west coast where the jobs are mostly around frontend/backend/ai/ml

[smoky quest]

both tbh

[spark zinc]

I see

[smoky quest]

I hear about a lot of C# on east coast

[honest pivot]

I've mainly seen C++ in embedded or trading environments

[spark zinc]

I’ll stick with my python job now and hope it all works out for the better then

Thanks for the help guys, this really gives me some peace of mind

[nimble salmon]

It

[smoky quest]

if anything, my take is C++ is being replaced by higher level languages and is destined to become quite niche. And data is coming into every single aspect of everyone's lives and will therefore continue to grow for AI/ML as a way to benefit from it

[nimble salmon]

it's alright bro I am a student myself, it gets confusing at times. My dad guides me a lot since he is a Data scientist but shit still hella confusing

[nimble salmon]

I think its just gonna become very specific, I am doing electronic eng so it will remain for me , just like how matlab is specific now asw

[split oasis]

yeah I know, anything in CS, specially programming

[dense mesa]

MATLAB isn't usually classed as typical software engineering, and its use cases are very non-specific btw

Would recommend joining the MATLAB discord 😁

[gentle kite]

How often do you guys look for new jobs? How long is "too long" for you to stay in the same team or the same company?

[peak halo]

I think that depends on your goals and present level of satisfaction.

[gentle kite]

What's your strategy? 😛

[peak halo]

I have not changed jobs

[smoky quest]

Depends on your goals, plans, current plan you have established with your manager and how close you are to get it, current projects, current state of the market, your vesting schedule...
But checking on if you should look around or not every 6months or so would not hurt

[brazen trail]

I'm four years on the same team, thinking about looking at what else is out there, I've been told 4 years is a long time

well, a long time to go without a promotion, but due to internal factors there's nothing opening up

[near ocean]

I am currently at 8 months, i've definitely been looking around but not applying yet
When they hired me they talked about doing things in the far future, 2 years+, and I quietly agreed just so i could get a job
Its hard, theres a lot of freedom and learning potential but the pay is low

[split oasis]

how low? what job and where?

[near ocean]

30k + 5k bonuses for an internal tools job in London

[split oasis]

Wow in london and so cheap

[near ocean]

lmao, wouldnt really call my employment cheap, I'm just high value

[split oasis]

more like great value

[brazen trail]

I noticed that once I hit a year at my current job, all the recruiters came out of the woodwork on linkedin 😄

and again to an extent the following years

[near ocean]

1 year experience is all the way in September tho, that feels so far away

[brazen trail]

well you can start looking in a month or two 🙂

[nimble salmon]

oh wow, you mean greater london or London London

[near ocean]

London london, i live in zone 2 and work near mayfair

[nimble salmon]

Oh that's nice
Did you do a degree or went through a track programme

[near ocean]

I got a degree

[vapid jay]

wow cool

[nimble salmon]

You know the advantages of studying in London over other cities when it comes to internships etc tbf

Specially if you are pursuing an industrial field

[near ocean]

I didnt study in London, but 90% of the tech jobs are here so...

[nimble salmon]

I guess it's due to the sheer amount of companies present there, and you don't have a great start up culture here soooo that just leaves those big company jobs left

[zenith sand]

hello

[delicate bane]

at least you will have one year exp 😔

[brazen trail]

you'll get there

[delicate bane]

[brazen trail]

🧑‍💻

[dense ginkgo]

Where do I go to get help

[split oasis]

What kind of help

[dense ginkgo]

I tried python manage.py makemigrations but its giving me errors stating No migrations to apply.

Even though I have migrations folder

@split oasis

[split oasis]

no idea where that would go, check the topical chat/help channels?

[dense ginkgo]

ok

[topaz mirage]

In my opinion the best occupation is energetiker in sltzn, u know!

[desert stag]

hello I was wondering if someone here who works as a recruiter, hiring manager, pro of some sort could look at my github project and let me know what kind of python level I'm at?

I have been putting out applications but have not been getting feedback on my rejections

[vital wolf]

can anyone send fresher's sample resumes

[smoky quest]

You should just post it in the channel as a way to save time. There are a few folks around who could give you feedback.

[split oasis]

Thanks to what @desert stag said I am starting to consider hiring someone to find me a job 😂

"The three main experts you can pay to help you find a job: Reverse Recruiters, Career Coaches, Resume Writers"

[desert stag]

repo in question

[smoky quest]

Given that recruiters get paid on commission when someone get hired, you can find a few that would do it for free for you. However given your special case, that may indeed not be free

The level would be at entry level or below

[desert stag]

well entry level is what Im going for so thats good news

I am trying to plan what I should study next. Dont know if I should improve my coding, CS skills, or get a AWS cert or something.

[smoky quest]

Some notes:

• Use Git to manage your versions. Don't just have directories for each version
• Your readme could use some clean up. Start by describing the project, what it does, the purpose, before going into changelog
• It's nice to have a gif of what it looks like!
• It's nice to have put a license
• Code has comments

[smoky quest]

Indeed. But if your resume only contained that project, I would not call you back for an entry level.
Your project is way too simple as is

In terms of complexity, something that could help would be a flask/django app (with migration scripts), using a real database like mysql, and having APIs for both doctors and patients. And then you can go more fancy with caches (ex: redis) and message brokers (but that would be more advanced)

And if you care about frontend, you could also add a react frontend

[desert stag]

Understood. Would you recommend starting a new project, improving the project, or continue learning some more, possibly AWS or something? I have been studying just over a year at this point.

[smoky quest]

Depends on your objective. If your objective is to have a great project for interviews, then learning AWS wouldn't help there

[split oasis]

Not to discourage you but aside from the UI and GIT... it looks like something highschoolers in the general program would do in Mexico @desert stag

[split oasis]

Yeah, I have to admit I haven't done any research on recruiters although I would expect it to be high risk for them to get someone his first job.

[desert stag]

haha, yea the database is as simple as can be. But I wrote all of it so at least some of it is not done by high schoolers in Mexico 😎 . I am aware I still have a lot of learning to do. Thats why Im trying to figure out where to go next.

[smoky quest]

yeah, it's a risk/reward for them

[desert stag]

I view AWS as another skill to help in getting the first interview at least.

[smoky quest]

Your project is a great stepping stone to the next stage of more complex ones

[summer roost]

The way external recruiters (at least in the US) get paid is that they place someone at a job, and if the person lasts at that job for some amount of time (usually 6 months) the recruiter gets a commission that is some percentage of the employee's annual salary (maybe 0.2X).

[smoky quest]

In that case, it may indeed help.
But regardless, you should continue working on your project and code

[summer roost]

Which means that, from their point of view, there's greater reward in trying to place a more senior developer, since the commission they make will be higher because a senior developer's pay scale is higher.

[desert stag]

Its my first project that I didnt use any sort of tutorial for. I designed it and built it from the first line. So I'm proud of that even if its not that good.

[smoky quest]

you should still be proud of it regardless.
I am still proud of my first projects too. The fact there are more complex ones out there does not negate its existence and how hard you had to get it there

[desert stag]

Maybe in another year I'll be job ready. Until then I guess I will do CS50 or something. Learn to make better projects.

[split oasis]

@summer roost that makes so much sense... it even explains how certain bootcamps work, asking you for 20% out of your paycheck for 2 years or requiring you to work where they decide for 2 years (without taking a cut out of your paycheck)

[summer roost]

"or requiring you to work where they decide" is often a ploy to keep their "percentage of graduates who go on to industry jobs" numbers up

They look like a better school if they can claim more of their students get jobs, and that scheme helps them do that

[split oasis]

perhaps but I have to admit that option feels even scarier 😂 I rather pay

[smoky quest]

to be fair, the ones asking you a cut of your paycheck would not make you pay for the bootcamp itself. They still do need to pay the employees somehow

[summer roost]

Knowing how people get paid often lets you reason about what their incentives are, and under what conditions their incentives are likely to align with your own

[split oasis]

Yeah that sounds fair to me

[split oasis]

Definitely, this is why I pay so much attention to it. Especially since I have special situations 😂

[tranquil crest]

Hi everyone!

[vapid jay]

Anyone here from BENELUX?
What are your experiences with Python in the business world of these countries?

[delicate bane]

vendors

[true harness]

surely by saying that you're in the hospital you can get extra time to finish the quiz. either way, this isn't the right channel

[weary coral]

what channel?

[deep mango]

not career discussion

[delicate bane]

[near ocean]

back to career stuff
going to start applying to job ads again so fixing up the cv
thoughts?

[gilded valley]

it's not immediately obvious to morons (me) what "IR" means

[near ocean]

its the company tag line so i didnt wanna change it

IR is investor relations, its a niche fintech area

[gilded valley]

if it's included in your companies name, then that should be fine. But given that I work in asset management and it didn't immediately jump out as meaning investor relations to me, then it might be worth including the actual phrase "investor relations" somewhere

[vapid jay]

My experience is that it's better to keep things vague, makes them organize a meeting to ask you about things more often.

Using abbreviations is also useful for that matter.

Especially HR is easy to get interested in you with these things.

Vagueness is also helpful when you want to write one thing but connect it to a variety of things according to the job you are applying.

[near ocean]

the thing is it doesnt really matter what the company does, i dont do any finance anyway, i just dev and maintain internal tools and recently some full stack code

[gilded valley]

I dunno - someone working in "operations" in <initialism>" sounds so vague and uninformative

e.g your role could literally have been Excel+2 wordpress forms based on the available information

[near ocean]

lmao youre not that far off

idk how better to phrase it, operations is pretty much excel monkey-ish with me trying to simplify things for them even further

[gilded valley]

for the first and third bullet points, you could briefly mention some specific technologies I guess - possibly being very lenient in what you count as being included

[delicate bane]

it jumped out to me, but that might be because our internship coordinator's main job is in IR

[honest pivot]

To me it means infrared. I guess it depends heavily on the industry what acronyms you expect them to understand

[gilded valley]

international relations was what I first thought of

[delicate bane]

@peak halo bro another podcast where another bootcamp decided to switch from teaching data science to data engineering since the market has vastly changed since they started

[near ocean]

its in the company name but i blacked it out

[honest pivot]

Then don't worry

[delicate bane]

it was on alexey grigorev's data talks podcast

[gilded valley]

as long as the words "investor relations" appear somewhere, it's fine

[near ocean]

cant exactly mention the name lol, my face is on the website kek

[delicate bane]

i think you dont need to mention it since finance but thats me

[near ocean]

ok so just embellish on what my deliverables are in the bullet points?

[peak halo]

tbh I'm still not sure if I know what exactly data engineering is, as opposed to the rest of the DS/AI/ML world. did they mention anything about the feasibility of imparting valuable DS skills in the context of a bootcamp?

[delicate bane]

they mentioned that is was much too competitive to feasibly produce bootcamp graduates that can compete in the job market; he even said that many companies would tell him that they use masters or phds as an applicant filter bc there was just a deluge of candidates

no matter how rockstar of a candidate they could produce with valuable DS skills

[delicate bane]

for data engineering...i would think of it as 'how are DS or analysts getting their data?' - someone needs to produce that data infrastructure for the company

developers are also generating data with their apps or sometimes business units generate data with SaaS applications (Salesforce, etc.), so 'who is collecting that data and centralizing that data so it can be leveraged later?'

this is from the bootcamp's website. and i think it reflects the core competencies of the modern data engineer pretty well

[delicate bane]

ive also heard it described as a backend engineer but with a data specialization

if theres anyone else that wants to chime in, feel free

[tacit ocean]

do i study at a college or university

[summer roost]

Are you asking what the difference between a college and a university is?

If so, that distinction is country specific

[pastel thunder]

what should be my email subject when emailing professor for research internship

[harsh quarry]

Idk if there's a good email subject
But how about something to the point like "Statement of Interest for Research Internship" ?

[pastel thunder]

sounds different

[harsh quarry]

I guess if you have a proposal the subject would be something else entirely
And some departments might mention a format for it? idk what your case is...

[thick juniper]

Hey all. Would anyone have any good suggestions/resources for cover letters? I feel like a gorilla without thumbs trying to write mine, and so I've just been spamming my resume without a cover letter and that can't be good for me. Thanks.

[buoyant seal]

may be there is something in Cracking the coding interview.... i did not read it fully though...
But technically stuff like that is learned during school/uni during those.... multiple... write a text about a subject. Sort of non-tech skill at all. Just ability to use a language for writing letters

[gilded valley]

Writing an essay is nothing long writing a cover letter

[vapid jay]

hi

do you speak türkishs

[dense mesa]

[vapid jay]

hello, can someone help me with my problem

me when no thread

[analog sun]

You may get help from a help channel, as this channel is for career discussions. In addition, I have removed your message due to the name of your photo sharing link

[vapid jay]

sorry

[undone willow]

If a job application asks for desired salary is it ok to put what you want?

[smoky quest]

that's what desired salary means :p

[undone willow]

my questions are Trump like amazing. So amazing they answer themselves.

[smoky quest]

that's why rubber ducks are so popular

that said, there can be some strategy behind your desired salary

[vivid ore]

Please ask how we can end world hunger.

[undone willow]

How can we end world hunger?

[fickle onyx]

proper distribution of resources i would guess

[undone willow]

Maybe not block trade ports transproting grain could help.

Looks at Russia

[dawn leaf]

I never answer the desired salary question

Its just an attempt to make you give up leverage

[fickle onyx]

Did a quick google search and saw that the average salary is 'only' 60k~ where i'm from (Toronto) wondering if that's because Data analyst is a pretty broad role that can include excel/vba or if it really is just that poor paying. I'm considering a pursuit to get a masters and I really enjoy data analytics but I don't want to invest in a career that doesn't pay well.

Question is: does data analytics pay well? Or do I need to specialize in something like machine learning or big data analytics? I'm currently doing analytics working in improving leak detection in water systems. Would I need to specialize in a masters program or can just a masters degree be enough to improve pay scale?

[thick juniper]

As far as I can tell, there's nothing there (first place I looked). I always sucked at writing cover letters, although I can write basically anything else.

[buoyant seal]

Perhaps to try playing role play text multiplayer games? xD
It helped me to get some writing fluency in English

Sort of turns fantasy really on from all different angles

[delicate bane]

i try not to but sometimes its required in the application

[dawn leaf]

i respond 1 or na lol

[thick juniper]

I mean... I've had short stories, articles, and op-eds published while editing all of the above and also scholarly articles. I can write; I just can't write cover letters. I feel like a fraud or as if I'm writing the obvious. I don't know if I'm simply missing the point of a cover letter somehow or what.

Anyway, that sounded whiney and somewhat pompous and I'm sorry for both.

I know you're trying to help. My tone is because cover letters frustrate me more than I can quite put into words.

[buoyant seal]

Perhaps u just need more achievements / experience of which u a proud to speak about

Or re think if u already have stuff like that

[thick juniper]

That's probably it.

Or at least part of it.

Let me ask this, then:

My understanding is that one writes a cover letter in this format: (1) introduction and request for job, including why one wants the job (2) skills one has with reference to past jobs and resume, and (3) explaining why in particular I would be a good candidate for the job.

Do I have that about right?

[smoky quest]

yeah. Typically I go about:

• me - I am awesome
• them - They are awesome
• me + them - We are awesomer

That matches your description

[thick juniper]

I like that

Except... I don't think I'm awesome, I usually don't think they're awesome, and I would like us to be awesome together but I have my doubts

[smoky quest]

doesn't sound like the start of a great relationship

[thick juniper]

That's fair. And a damn good criticism delivered mildly. Thank you.

[split oasis]

My business communication teacher would fail you(?

Okay no, no need to force yourself to think something you don't. But focus on the good stuff only. That's what recursive error was trying to communicate

[honest pivot]

Your CV contains your skills, experience, and education, so I wouldn't just repeat that in a cover letter. Mainly the cover letter is about how you match up to this particular employer and why you're interested. For me, I think it's best to keep it fairly conversational, as though I met this person at a conference or something. Mainly because I'm not sure how to communicate genuine interest if I'm being formal and stuffy.

In any case, I would point out things that are not directly obvious from your CV, such as what interests you about the company/position, and which combination of things about you makes you a good fit.

[split oasis]

So a cover letter is like having the opportunity to send the employer a long discord message to start conversation with them to make them want an interview with me?

[honest pivot]

I mean, I don't think it has to be too long. Like 500 words max.

[split oasis]

Yeah why I said discord which has a character limit of 2000 😂

[honest pivot]

Personally, I would only write a cover letter if I'm actually inspired to. If someone is just requiring a cover letter from every applicant, that's kind of silly. If you have the option to send a cover letter, don't send a generic one thinking that you're going to "stand out" somehow by doing "more work" in your application. It's very easy to tell when someone just sends a form letter and puts in the company name. But what does stand out is someone who makes the explicit connection between their skills and our requirements, and comes across as friendly, and seems to write like they know how to communicate.

[warped egret]

Hi All,

[novel pine]

My guess is that Data Analyst are normally just analyzing the data whereas another position such as a Data Scientist will be collecting/modifying/using the data with machine learning models. Hence why the pay tends to be lower for one over the other. If you like using Data many other options are available that pay better with the same description just kind of varies from company to company and area to area.

I could be completely wrong which I am sure someone will correct but this is what I gathered from what I have heard. The rest depends on factors you decide.

[warped egret]

Just want let you guys know that you guys help me a lot, and finally I got a new job and.. thanks....

[wicked cairn]

Thats awesome

I also want to get a job, is it hard to get an entry python job?

[warped egret]

Vmware which is US company ...

[gilded valley]

It depends on a lot of factors. The employment rate for CS grads is very high though, with an average salary of 70k

[novel pine]

Depends on your credentials. Many people do find it difficult.

[warped egret]

i guess 70k is high enough for yoy

if you have around 3 years experience...

[wicked cairn]

In this industry there are not lower jobs? For example with an average salary of 15k or 20k

[novel pine]

No. Most jobs that require or are strongly supported by getting degrees will pay a lot more.

[gilded valley]

15000 is below minimum wage in many us states

In pretty much all of them

[novel pine]

You aren't going much lower than 50k anyways.

[gilded valley]

Here's BLS estimated salaries for all developers

[wicked cairn]

Because I have an engineering degree, but I'm an industrial engineer.
Most things I know about python, I learned by myself

[thick juniper]

Well, I haven't been including a cover letter for exactly that reason, but I have felt as if I ought to and as if it might be holding me back from the borderline jobs.

[thick juniper]

In fairness, I would fail myself, which is why I haven't been writing them and why I was looking for advice. Even in my other career (lawyer) where I have been perfectly and traditionally qualified, I've always hated the cover letters. I don't know what I'm missing about them.

I was being flippant there, but the more honest answer is: 1) You'll know it I'm awesome for this company and anyone who praises himself isn't worth the praise, 2) I honestly don't know enough about your company to know whether I'll like it but I'm hopeful, and 3) I want us to be good and useful together, but I won't know until we try.

And that does not make a good cover letter, I don't think.

[surreal jackal]

hi

[vapid jay]

Does anybody here major in Computer Science? Is it a particularly difficult major?

[smoky quest]

On a programming related discord, many people have been through college/university for a CS degree 😉

With regards to the difficulty, it's relative. But it's not as difficult as people make it sound

[vapid jay]

So I’m a 17 year old (soon to be 18) recent Highschool graduate. My end-goal is to get a career in Cybersecurity, but I’m not too sure how to go about it.

Should I major in Computer Science, or Cybersecurity?

[smoky quest]

I don't have any experience with cybersecurity degrees, so can't comment much on that.
Most folks I know went through a CS degree and then specialized in cybersecurity. But that may be specific to my location

[vapid jay]

Ahh I see

[vapid jay]

How hard is the math in computer science? The highest math I’ve taken is Probability & Statistics and Algebra II

That’s my main concern

hi

hi

[smoky quest]

it's fine and fun.
The math in HS is sometimes quite abstract because there aren't really any direct applications every time. Once in college/university, the maths will be a lot more applicable and relate to more concrete scenario, which makes them a lot more interesting

[vapid jay]

Thank you very much, this has helped alot.

[oak mist]

Is python less used in industry than the java ?

I am going to select one although I have learnt python basic

Suggest me something

[solar quartz]

what programs are mostly used in cybersecurity/cybercriminology?

[vapid jay]

Guys, if u want to focus like making software applications, video games, database applications (mostly about software). What college course should u choose?

[graceful mason]

I believe they're used a similar amount but generally for very different purposes - Java is definitely one of the most sought after languages in industry and that is usually reflected by being used for university courses, so I would consider investing more time into that

[dense mesa]

Computer science

[vapid jay]

A lot of people say software engineering too

Someone said they rather choose SE cause much of the CS stuff is irrelevant in practice for the average programmer

[dense mesa]

CS degrees are much more common and accessible, plus you're not immediately specialised in software engineering

[dense mesa]

What is this person's background?

[vapid jay]

They said theyre a bachelor in computer science. Currently taking on masters. Thats what they said lol

[vapid jay]

Not immediately specialised? Wdym?

[dense mesa]

That sounds like a "grass is greener" case, would take it in that context

[dense mesa]

Studying CS lets you go into a wide range of fields after, with SWE you're effectively limiting options for no reason

[gilded valley]

There's usually relatively little difference between software engineering degrees and CS degrees - at my university it could be as little as 2 modules different

the advantage of CS is the stuff you're learning is pretty timeless, whereas software engineering trends come and go very frequently - and university courses often lag behind the real world

[vapid jay]

Whats ur background if thats okay

[gilded valley]

(it's also important to note that no university course will make you a good software developer - the only way to become a good software developer is to develop a lot of software, just doing the minimum required to get decent grades won't get you that far no matter what the course is)

[noble mica]

I hate math, chem and physics... but i love python n programming. What carrer choices do i have?

[vapid jay]

Hmm. U mean CS is useful no matter how technology/trends changes over time?

[dense mesa]

About to finish undergrad engineering (traditional engineering not software), doing a master's degree apprenticeship in technology afterwards. I had to self teach programming and CS concepts, which was only possible because engineering taught me how to think and self-study. Currently have a part time python developer role and the company sponsoring the apprenticeship will have me using python full time

[vapid jay]

Ur course is computer engineering? Like mostly in hardware?

[dense mesa]

It's in "regular" engineering, I took modules in manufacturing, operations management, industrial engineering, some software and intelligent systems design

Have done hardware for it but those modules were my least favourite

[vapid jay]

I hate hardware too lol. I aim for software mostly

Like the people who created social media apps like instagram, tiktok. Video games probably like GTA or Sims. Making databases for a company, maybe like attendance system, payroll, electric bill records, records of citizens for the goverment something like that etc.

If u want to make these, CS is more recommended than SE?

[dense mesa]

From what you've mentioned, it sounds like CS would be a sensible way forward. You could also do a STEM/technical undergrad and then do a CS conversion masters, although that's an extra year and lots of money

The generic advice is not to specialise in your undergraduate degree, but that depends on a lot of other stuff such as personal preferences

[vapid jay]

Many people say "specialise" regarding to courses. I dont completely know what it means 💀

What does it mean exactly?

[analog sun]

I could learn basic manufacturing concepts, or become an expert underwater basket weaver (a specialization of manufacturing)

Of those two, which is probably the better value?

Specializations just means a more niche, focused sub-class of a broader field

[gilded valley]

in a market with a demand for underwater basket weavers, the latter.

I agree with the general sentiment, but don't think the analogy helps at all

[analog sun]

Just trying to make an explanatory example by using the extreme

[gilded valley]

I think the real advantage in not-specialising comes less from the fact that it makes you more or less employable - any STEM degree plus programming ability makes you pretty damn employable - and more from the fact that you don't know if you'll dislike your specialisation ahead of time. So the risk is that it turns out you have no knack for basket weaving

[vital skiff]

I think it helps if you start aiming for a specialist skillset i.e. python programmer with SQL with a degree. You then have a solid foundation to go and get a job but ultimately aim for a sector in which you have an interest in (passion) i.e. healthcare, gaming etc

IMHO it is too hard at a young age to try and tick all the boxes and make an indefinite career choice, best to start small, one step at a time. The beauty of programming is that it is a trade such as carpentry or plumbing or nurse or teacher etc - you can work all over the world

[oak mist]

Thanks for advice ❤️

[vital skiff]

I am at the other end of young age looking to do a career change into programming and whilst my advantage is years of work experience I do not have a degree. Education and a degree is important but I do not think it has to be a CS degree for programming, as said above ^^ a STEM degree with programming skill set would tick so many boxes!

[void topaz]

One Question for all 😅

"Skills" or "Degree"

[near ocean]

Both?

[void topaz]

Any one

[gilded valley]

the choice is never between one or the other

[void topaz]

Can u explain

[near ocean]

Do both. Next question.

[void topaz]

From which country

[vital skiff]

If you can get a degree (maybe your circumstances such as age, time, financial resources etc make it a bit easier) then get one. Regarding skills you will build skills by doing stuff. Skills come with experience.

[void topaz]

Actually I am studying in first year engineering

And I am getting bored
No subject are related to my branch
🥲😕😕😕 Except maths

[near ocean]

Engineering is STEM, if you pick up programming and have some projects to show for then you should be good to go when you graduate

[remote bane]

Hi is anyone here an ML/AI SWE? Would be great to learn your path/experience

[vital skiff]

I think everything has the potential to get boring, there are probably elements of the day job on the ISS which get boring! For motivation look at jobs within the engineering sector, speak to your tutor about extra work or groups to join, understand the history of engineering and why it is so important, follow leaders from that sector on your social media etc... Possibly other modules coming up for you will not be as boring. I think you have made a good choice and if you are wanting to learn programming as well that is very good!

[vital skiff]

I am not but I found towardsdatascience when I was exploring aspects of ML, they have good resources and you can connect with people on their linkedin or medium, If no one else is on now you can also hop back on here later and ask!

[void topaz]

Tutors just motivates get good marks and complete assignments 🥲

And most important attendance 😅

[vital skiff]

That is good they can motivate! Is your attendance good??!!

[void topaz]

No

[vital skiff]

LOL

[void topaz]

Attend 0 lecture from starting

But, I didn't waste that time
I learn python, matplotlib,etc..
Just trying to get data analyst skills

[vital skiff]

When you leave formal education (school) then you have to rely on self-motivation a lot more and if you have work responsibilities you will not have the same amount of time. It sounds like you know what you want and that is a good start to making it happen. Good luck with it!

[remote bane]

thanks appreciate it

[void topaz]

😊

[vapid jay]

Hii i want to be a machine learning engineer

What should i do

[dim flame]

Hello

[wary folio]

Hey guys! I've been checking for Python jobs in Latin America and for remote stuff it's quite rare compared to Javascript. Maybe I should look elsewhere? Just sharing thoughts

[foggy basalt]

Have you received an email from Google Summer of Code yet?

[dense mesa]

Is this advertising?

[foggy basalt]

No, just a question

[undone willow]

I remember some sites that had tons of Python jobs. But they were mostly in Spanish. My friend without a degree got there

[jade mortar]

It's Google 😂 not self promotion

[jagged crystal]

Hey guys
I've been a backend web developer for 6 months.
Today i got a chance to become a game developer and work with unreal engine.
I love playing video games. Video games is my passion. And probably ill get paid more. What should i do.
Sorry this not related to python at all, but i just wanted to ask someone😅

[peak halo]

keep in mind that playing video games and developing video games are not the same thing. I've heard horror stories about working in the game dev industry. have you looked into what employees of the company in question have experienced?

[jagged crystal]

Yea that what i thought, im afraid to lose passion about the thing that i love the most.
I think im a good programmer and i always find a way out.

[summer roost]

The game dev industry tends to be very exploitative. Do your research (about the company and the industry) before committing, I'd say.

[split oasis]

I thought I wanted to enter it since it seemed easy enough 😂

Why is it exploitative?

[dim pelican]

Do international jobs use WhatsApp as a main form of communication?

https://time.com/5603329/e3-video-game-creators-union/ check out the article @split oasis

[dense mesa]

Fella if you think game programming is easy then you need to read the stories of ex employees

[ocean sandal]

I recommend looking into starting your own Indie game studio

[split oasis]

This seems like a good way to start and as far as I know there are many games waiting to be developed that professional studios couldn't pick up because they are already busy

I am currently helping a guy develop his dream game 😂

[summer roost]

the fact that it's a lot of people's dream job means that there's a much greater supply of new blood for game dev positions than for most other types of development, and people are willing to put up with a lot for their dream job.

Game dev studios have historically been just about the worst experience for developers of any industry. Software devs in game dev are likely to be underpaid compared to other software devs, work much longer hours, have worse work/life balance, and have lower pay. Game dev studios have also historically had terrible culture, with rampant sexism, racism, and ageism.

Stories about sexual harassment have been incredibly common from even large AAA studios, also.

[split oasis]

Wow, when I looked into it, they presented a different point of view. Something about production of video games not increasing linearly with budget. Like if you pay twice as much you can't get twice as many games because of the lack of talent.

[summer roost]

That's true for all types of programming. I can't really think of any industry where you can double the software dev budget to get double the output.

[split oasis]

Something like: if you hire 2000 programmers, perhaps the first 1000 are good talent but you will be overpaying for the other 1000... if the next year you hire 10,000, then 1,000 are talent and from there on the quality goes down drastically... so to produce more games you need to increase your budget exponentially.

Game development is not an industry that suffers for lack of demand. Worse case scenario big companies will pay you just to develop a free game for their customers as a form of advertising for the company.

Passion and talent aren't necessarily correlated

[summer roost]

no, but it is one that suffers from poor management of time and budget. Look up articles about "crunch time" in the game dev industry, for instance.

[split oasis]

Many people don't produce as expected but they push themselves and that's where the horrible stories are born... overworked people don't have much mental energy and can even be more racist and sexists... etc

[summer roost]

no

that's... absolutely not the case.

people behaving like shitty human beings is a thing that happens at companies where people aren't punished for behaving like shitty human beings.

[split oasis]

That's such a dinosaur way of thinking

[summer roost]

game dev companies, historically, have rewarded people for behaving like shitty human beings, which is why they have such a track record of employees being shitty.

[split oasis]

They are simply not happy and their lives aren't good.

[dense mesa]

If you've ever worked/had an extended internship, you will see why that isn't the case very very quickly

The culture is almost always coming top-down, if the most senior managers in a huge org are toxic, it will definitely trickle down to the juniors

[gilded valley]

I really don't understand what the disagreement here is. Are you saying that video game companies don't treat their employees like trash @split oasis?

[dense mesa]

And at smaller companies (such as game developers who aren't AAA), it's typically worse and there's a mound of evidence about the conditions. Even blizzard for example

[summer roost]

Imagine you're at a company and a manager makes a sexist joke. If that manager gets reported and they don't repeat similar behavior, it sends a signal to other employees that sexist jokes aren't ok. If that manager gets reported and nothing changes, or that manager doesn't get reported, it sends a signal to other employees that not only are sexist jokes OK, they're a path to promotion, since they'll get you on the good side of the manager.

[dense mesa]

https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/30/22602655/activision-blizzard-employees-accusations-allegations-lawsuit

[gilded valley]

The video games industry clearly has overworked staff and a culture at multiple major companies which is absolutely fine with sexism and discrimination - almost no one who's ever looked at the industry wide standards disagrees with this

maybe Yves Guilemot.

[split oasis]

I see where the problem is. I'm probably not talking about anything you are familiar with. I'm talking about what caused this in the first place without going for the easy narrative of evil and good... I'm mentioning the economics and how it leads to not talented employees being mentally fatigued and if you know anything about psychology, that leads to them behaving the way you guys are describing.

[summer roost]

game dev companies have, historically, fostered culture where to be part of the "in group", you need to at least tolerate sexist/racist/ageist comments, if not participate in them yourself.

[summer roost]

sure, stressed people behave worse. But if that was all that we were talking about, the company would just fire those people when they fail to control their behaviors in the office.

[gilded valley]

Not all high-stress industries have rampant sexism issues
although a lot do

[dense mesa]

Humans and organisational psychology isn't simple enough to be distilled to this

[summer roost]

If I said something racist or ageist, I'd get pulled into a meeting with HR the next day.
The fact that that doesn't happen in game dev shops is a problem with the shops.

[dim pelican]

If only non talented employees are suffering but a large majority of the workforce have these gripes then who is making the game? The infustructure for GTA online or Warzone cannot be upheld by 10 percent of the workforce who would also be pumping out all the other games. It’s not a talent thing, it’s just a bad industry. Even outside of video game in manufacturing it’s a similar problem so it’s not like it’s exclusive to the game industry.

[summer roost]

although a lot do
Usually the ones that consider "high stress" to be a feature rather than a bug.

[gilded valley]

As far as I can tell, you're not making a coherent argument as to what differentiates the video games industry from the software development industry.

I have my own opinion on that - but I don't see anything you've said which can't reasonably be generalised to things other than video games

[split oasis]

I am probably biased because I am a physics major... but physics is a science field that is highly dominated by sexist and racist males 😂

I think that some areas that are hard for most people but where people push themselves to get into them suffer this issue regardless of whether they are software development of science or anything else.

[summer roost]

Look, I love video games too - if you're sure that you want to go into that industry, I hope it works out for you, and I hope you can make some small incremental improvement to the problems that plague that industry. I'd love to feel less guilty when I think about the people who worked on the games that I play. All I'm strongly suggesting is that, before deciding to leave a job in another industry for one in game dev, do some research about game dev as a whole and the shop you'd be joining in particular, and make sure you're comfortable with what you learn. From what you've said so far, you seem to have a rosier view of the industry than is justified.

[split oasis]

Oh no, I am not that innocent. I just like to see the issue for what it is instead of creating fantastic stories in my mind.

[summer roost]

I think you have created a fantastic story (that if people were less stressed the culture would magically improve, disregarding inertia and perverse incentives that exist within the company).

[split oasis]

I just see a lot of correlation with physics... other sciences are just fine with lots of women and much less toxicity than physics

[summer roost]

sure. But you've concluded that stress is the thing they have in common that causes this problem.

I don't think that conclusion is justified.

I think that the thing they have in common that causes this problem is that leaders in the field don't use their power/influence/authority to condemn shitty behavior.

[split oasis]

These are areas that rely on good talent or at least on having a lot of experience and they are willing to excuse behavior because they need those people. Also the truly talented classmates that I had weren't really toxic. They were just trying to blend in among the other non talented students but they weren't mentally fatigued enough to not he reasonable when it mattered. They also never got upset if I told them that the stuff they were doing was easy because they themselves believed it to be easy. Tell a non talented person that their work is easy and see how they react 😂

[dim pelican]

So basically your argument is if you aren’t experienced then you deserve to be abused?

[split oasis]

Nope, read from the start, perhaps?

[gilded valley]

Every area needs good talent. That is not exceptional about game development.

[split oasis]

The issue is that the majority of seniors weren't good talent when they started

[dim pelican]

Most of the messages I’ve read is along the lines of “only those without talent feel that way” but if you treat the starting point like crap then how are you to breed good talent? School and personal projects aren’t in the same scope of large companies so no one starts off 100 percent where they need to be.