career-advice

[near ocean]

I cant exactly negotiate the salary tho, its literally my first job

[olive hazel]

yeah i'd be impressed if you pulled that off

I negotiated my way up while on the job at my next gig from 30k to 75k in 3 years

so that made up for it some

[wind goblet]

guys as I read your messages I can't believe that we live in the same world, in Poland my salary (at my first IT job) is 48k PLN, it means about 10k USD

[near ocean]

Different countries, different positions, different cost of living

Interns in silicon valley could be getting 100k working part time, it is what it is

[fierce harness]

With Java performing many of the heavy duty programs in companies, what exactly is Python good for and what career can I pursue with it?

[vapid jay]

So it means we can hire a person from a different country at less cost to do my job .
IF I am Getting 100k dollars it is very easy to hire some very intelligent person who is very good at coding at 50k dollars who belong to a country where there is less cost of living

[smoky quest]

glue code, machine learning, data science, PoC / startups

[smoky quest]

you have to look at the TCO, not just the raw salary

[vapid jay]

Tco?

[smoky quest]

it's more appropriate for machines/software since it means Total Cost of Ownership. But the same principles apply.
Deciding to go offshore or outsourcing has some implications comparing to local employees

[fierce harness]

how is python renowned for machine learning and data science? what makes python more effective in these fields than other programming languages?

[smoky quest]

Libraries, frameworks and ecosystem

[fierce harness]

I have no experience in Python so can you be more specific?

Cater your explanation to a beginner pls

[smoky quest]

There are a tons of them.
If you want a full list, google is more appropriate for this type of questions 🙂

[fierce harness]

Aight thank you for your help

[gray anvil]

still better than an average grad salary tho right

when I graduated I think the uk average grad starting pay was 22

[near ocean]

No, actually im underpaid based on glassdoor and my title

[gray anvil]

damn

[near ocean]

Oh well, no internships, no experience, this is what i can get

[gray anvil]

fair. gonna try for a UK work visa in a couple years... couldn't make the tier 4 minimum salary set by Theresa May so I had to leave first

[smoky quest]

forgot to mention, but that's a great starting book for ML: https://www.amazon.com/Hands-Machine-Learning-Scikit-Learn-TensorFlow-dp-1492032646/dp/1492032646/
It assumes you already know python though

[smoky quest]

that's without a ms too, isn't it?

[near ocean]

With an ms but the job isnt relevant to it so it basically doesnt count i guess

[smoky quest]

ah I see. I would expect new grads with a MS to do at least 50kgbp in London

[near ocean]

I could get a job like that in one of the big banks but that means suffering through 4h interviews all about memorizing some random formulas and then get to look at spreadsheets and write latex reports for a living

And halfway through my degree i decided im not about that life

[smoky quest]

I mean standard sw engineering

[near ocean]

Oh, well my ms isnt swe related

[smoky quest]

fair enough

[main sleet]

I considered a few software engineer positions at banks in London and tbh the higher expectations and longer hours weren’t worth the extra money

[smoky quest]

yeah that makes sense.
Note the salary am talking about is not the banks one. It's a normal web software engineering position (backend/frontend/sre/etc.). So no extra bank hours

[slate prairie]

Has anyone made a switch to tech after years of non-tech work? I would like to know how was the hiring experience.

[main sleet]

I’d love to see where is offering 50k grad position that isn’t fintech or a bank ahahah

[near ocean]

Im not sure MS swe can get 50k first job out of college but i havent really looked outside fintech

[sudden quartz]

what country is this

[near ocean]

UK, so GBP

[smoky quest]

that's our salary grid and in line with my continental europeans friends salary

[sudden quartz]

so havent compared the benefits and such but thats about the average pay for swe in america

let me check my job

[near ocean]

50k GBP? Yea sounds about right

[smoky quest]

double that: https://www.indeed.com/career/software-engineer/salaries

[sudden quartz]

for entry level i mean

[near ocean]

Im guessing the average dev has 3-5 years of experience

[smoky quest]

95k$ for less than 1 years of xp

[main sleet]

If you look anywhere in UK that isn’t london I don’t think you’d get anywhere near that

[near ocean]

Lmao wtf i need to move continents

[smoky quest]

That's also just the cash. Doesn't seem to take in account equity

[gray anvil]

I have a mate in Germany making 7k euro a month working for Google, after about 3 years work experience

but I think he has some equity too

[sudden quartz]

so im making 86k my first position

[main sleet]

What do you pay in rent if you don’t mind me asking? That’s if you’re renting at all ahah

[sudden quartz]

across america the salaries are different

[sudden quartz]

not gonna be renting lol

[main sleet]

Living with parents or lucky enough to buy already?

[sudden quartz]

the position should be remote but even so there will be an office opening near where im located anyway (and i live with parents)

[vapid jay]

Software engineer right? And I'm guessing one of the big companies

[tardy grotto]

Is blockchain overhyped or can you land a stable job with it?
(Or not be obsolete/everyone stop using it in 5 years)

[olive hazel]

I know dudes who make ~80k and still have to have roommates cuz rent is so insane here

[still condor]

damn, salaries are so different between countries

a lucky junior programmer in Russia makes $10k-$15k per year

[digital fjord]

Blockchain is a data structure. But cryptocurrencies are not going anywhere, though any specific one might.

[still condor]

"our company's business is based around doubly-linked lists"

[ivory sluice]

you make it sound so easy! what's the full picture? 😂 don't you have to get a company to sponsor you?

i myself am already in the US, but sometimes people ask me this and i figured it was pretty difficult

[olive hazel]

yeah you get a H1B visa or a student visa

or come here and have a kid 😂 the famous "wet foot/dry foot" policy

[sudden quartz]

Yes SWE, I'll say its a global company and on the bottom 50 of this list. https://www.comparably.com/brands/top-brands-in-media-and-entertainment Its number 1 of its competition though with valuation tens of billions higher than its next competitor and other ratings are up there with the big companies.

[gray anvil]

I dunno about roomies, but housemates sure

[balmy bramble]

What have you guys learnt from cracking the code?

[gray anvil]

especially if its friends, I'd go mad living on my own

or even sharing a house with just girlfriend

[inland widget]

what would i need to learn along side python in order to get a job generally speaking

i understand there’s different areas that it’s used but i wanna see which way i wanna go

[smoky quest]

https://roadmap.sh/

[vapid jay]

the backend roadmap is full of garbage

what is it, the roadmap to sysadmin or the roadmap to wasting time

[smoky quest]

I don't necessarily agree with everything, but it's a good start

it's pretty far from garbage

[vapid jay]

is it a roadmap to sysadmin?

[smoky quest]

Are you talking about the roadmap for backend or sysadmin?

[vapid jay]

there's no sysadmin, im talking about the backend one

[smoky quest]

so what's wrong with it?

[vapid jay]

It includes too much unnecessary garbage
it says learn about operating systems, then says learn html and css

who the fuck learns rust, it even includes rust for some reasons

[smoky quest]

I don't see a problem with that.

[sage pumice]

rust is awesome

[smoky quest]

• html/css are marked as basic. Which is fair
• rust is used by many companies and can be a useful skill. It's also marked as one of the alternatives
• a backend dev who doesn't know much about OSes isn't a real backend engineer

[vapid jay]

Yeah but why learn about OS first, then basic stuff like git or databases

[smoky quest]

It helps building on the basics.

It sounds like we are arguing about fine prints, not necessarily the broad strokes

[vapid jay]

honestly If you can go to college, go to college, because you will learn these stuff in college
but anything is better than following the roadmap in this order

it's like learning CSS before learning html

[smoky quest]

yeah, college is still the best route.

So you are saying that the order displayed on that roadmap is the worst possible order ?

[vapid jay]

In another words
basically, it tells you to learn CSS first then move to HTML

[smoky quest]

it doesn't

[sage pumice]

it doesn't

[smoky quest]

All this stuff hardly qualify as garbage

[vapid jay]

yeah good luck learning about OS without knowing what the fuck a compiler or assembly is or how the OS is created

[sage pumice]

i don't see why assembly or knowledge about a compiler is necessary to learn about how OSes work

[dry sapphire]

why do you hate Rust

[vapid jay]

Python script kidde with a major superiority complex

[smoky quest]

context?

[smoky quest]

Don't ask to ask, just ask

Is it like you won't make it by the end of the school year or that you are concerned about being able to re-pay it after you graduate?

so you aren't in berkeley right now?

Why did you get in if you knew you could not pay for the whole year?

lmao, berkeley and cornell are still like the super top tier schools

Have you looked into side jobs?

are you also aiming for BS, MS or phd?

[vapid jay]

just BS for now but if possible MS(if my gpa can keep up)

[smoky quest]

also avoid deleting your messages. It makes the conversations look weird and people can't learn from it

[vapid jay]

ok

[smoky quest]

So things to take into account:

• Maybe a random part time job can help
• Moving to cornell will involve moving and relocating. There may be expenses
• Cornell is still a well regarded school. So that may work out for you
• Berkeley is also a very well regarded school. Mesos and spark did come out of one of its lab for example
• Being in Berkeley means you are in the bay, which means it will be easier to find a very high pay job once you graduate
• You may want to look into student loans. With a high paying job in the bay, you would have no issue paying it back

[vapid jay]

ya when i just ask ppl about this, they have so much stupid pride in the uni they just say "ya you are cs major, you gonna make 100k + in your first year cause you are berkeley" which is not even that realistic, if i can land a return offer at 3rd year i'll stick to it (so year 2 summer) but otherwise i'm just gonna submit for transfer instead to be safe but thanks for speaking. Had to get this off my mind

[smoky quest]

bay area starting salary is more like ~115k for BS. If you have a Ms or phd, it could be more

[vapid jay]

but living is like 100k lol

[smoky quest]

not really

Just don't try to live downtown SF

[delicate cave]

Does anyone know any python jobs that are not front-end?

[smoky quest]

look at craigslists. Prices range from 1k/month for a room to 3k/month for a very nice appartment. So costs would never reach 100k

[smoky quest]

backend, ml, datascience, devops

[delicate cave]

Okay thanks!

[delicate cave]

What about machine learning?

[smoky quest]

what about it?

[delicate cave]

Does it invlove front end?

[smoky quest]

no

[delicate cave]

Okay. I'll work towards that or data sciencet.

[smoky quest]

enjoy!

[vapid jay]

Schooling for coding seems like a time and money sink. Though there are some circumstances which it might be rational. Its seems viable enough to freelance as long as your program works people are willing to pay. Just learn general marketing.

Actually thinking back on it. Industry still seems hard to get into because some jobs want the general problem solving skills that unis give. Which are also learnable and expand potential. 🤷‍♂️

Uni is generally the safer option for entering industry anyway. I might go for accounting not sure still.

[smoky quest]

is there a question?
It also looks like you have a lot of misconceptions about schools and degrees. I recommend you to talk to people who have actually been there

[vapid jay]

My uncle works in silicon valley. Some tech companies require them some don't.

Coding is versatile enough to do a lot on your own nowadays is all. But idk after thinking it idk if the decision is so clear cut.

[smoky quest]

most companies, whether in the bay area or not, are not just hiring people to piss out code

there is a lot more to software engineering and computer science than writing code

or at least, that's where the big money is

[vapid jay]

Yeah, coding is a functional skill.

[smoky quest]

And for every position, for one self learner, you also have 100 people with either a bs or ms and better experience. So self learners need to do a lot more to stand out

being a self learner is not impossible, but it's definitely like doing life on extreme hardcore mode

[vapid jay]

We can break the wagey mindset together then brother. 🤝

I got a lot of time to sit on this stuff. I'll see how far I go. 🥱

[smoky quest]

tbh, it's not like people are twiddling their thumbs at school.
There is a difference between someone who spends 3-5 years at schoold vs someone who does not. And that difference is worth a lot of money

[vapid jay]

Yeah, but you already taking a hit from the money spent. When you can try and lay a foundation and find your little niche. Though with uni at least you have that security.

[smoky quest]

not at all. There is a say: save pennies, loose big
Do you want to save 20k/year for 3 years of school OR do you want to spend that, but then make multiple times the salaries for your entire career?

[vapid jay]

Its contextual you can make enough in business if you are good enough. The biggest thing I would be worried about is legal.

[smoky quest]

you can also make millions if you are ariana grande. Unfortunately, there aren't that many of them

[vapid jay]

Yeah, it depends if you wanna take the risk. 🤷‍♂️

Also, the field. You can't like develop AI by yourself. 💀

Too much capital required.

[smoky quest]

no one would also take a chance if you have no project, no previous successful startup and no degree

that would be too much risks and unknowns

[vapid jay]

Anything is achievable if you push your mind hard enough. You just have bridge means and ends.

How do you think companies are started in the first place?

[smoky quest]

by kids with reach parents or people with a successful track of record

[vapid jay]

I mean yeah. But that history with startups doesn't come from nothing. General business management is a skill that can be learned.

[smoky quest]

you would be surprised how far money can take you

stupid decisions can go far as long as there is money behind it. But then you can get more money because you already went pretty far

[vapid jay]

I am not denying it but how is money made? It requires people to able to produce something of value in the first place. A business functions to sell it to buyers. You can produce value on your own. Capital just expands what is possible to you.

[smoky quest]

it depends.
A lot of perceived value can be distorted in startups

[vapid jay]

Its not merely perceived if you have a real product worth something.

Also, btw do you know much about AI? I have a personal curiosity in epistemic development.

[smoky quest]

There is a reason a lot of startups have down rounds when they get to market. It's because VCs have a much higher valuation to prop up $$$ comparing to what companies are actually doing

I am working in AI and startups. So been there, done that

[vapid jay]

VCs?

[smoky quest]

venture capital

[vapid jay]

Oh, yeah

Though I am not really unfamiliar with any of what you said. I am just considering seeing how far I go regardless. I might just go to uni for accounting anyhow.

Btw do you have resources on AI development? 🤔

[smoky quest]

why not go to CS if that's what you enjoy?

[smoky quest]

depends on the specifics. Are you looking for intro level or something specific?

[vapid jay]

Intro probably not really familiar with it.

[vapid jay]

cs? Also, I have a huge diversity of interests so I don't know what exactly I wanna do. I am just learning a language rn because it will have use eventually I am sure.

Plus I have small things I could automate.

[smoky quest]

• https://www.amazon.com/Hands-Machine-Learning-Scikit-Learn-TensorFlow-dp-1492032646/dp/1492032646/
• https://www.amazon.com/Artificial-Intelligence-Textbook-Charu-Aggarwal-dp-3030723569/dp/3030723569
• http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu/

[smoky quest]

Computer Science

[vapid jay]

Idk I might not so sure. I kind of want to prop up my own brand to sell things. I wouldn't mind writing too. I wanna wait and work at stuff that is generally useful and find out.

[smoky quest]

which country are you in?

[vapid jay]

California

[smoky quest]

if you want to build your own brand and stuff, computer science is still more valuable than accounting

[vapid jay]

I can learn those skills on my own. Finance was just a consideration.

[smoky quest]

It's typically more interesting to graduate in CS to pick up on the startup skills and hire an accountant than the opposite

there are also tons of auxiliary CS classes to cater to startups

[vapid jay]

I was thinking of going into data too is the thing.

[smoky quest]

data can be a major but is more generally a specialization of CS

[vapid jay]

mhm

I'll find out eventually. I wanna talk with a career counselor too probably or do enough research on my own. Btw how do you survey industry generally? I wanna chase money too.

Industry seems very dense. I think its really hard to narrow stuff down and adhere to it.

[smoky quest]

what do you mean by surveying the industry generally?

[vapid jay]

Well different degrees are gonna have more demand etc.

[smoky quest]

it also means there are tons of opportunities

[vapid jay]

Yeah, obviously which is extremely nice

[smoky quest]

CS degree is pretty much it. phd > ms > bs.
No one will specifically care which school is it from, except in academia

[vapid jay]

Yeah, if I was gonna do it I was gonna be in community college and transfer into a cheaper program anyway.

[vapid jay]

How do you know that?

[smoky quest]

again, been there done that

[vapid jay]

Nah I just mean you responded to my question on demand. But there needs to be a quantification or something pointing to it being more valuable.

If only the federal loan system wasn't so bad @_@

[smoky quest]

if you are in the bay area, look at the make up at startups/faang or other companies.
You have people form China, Russia, Ukraine, France, Germany, Brazil, India and a bunch of other country. Do you know which schools are in the top tier for Ukraine or China?
Most people don't. As long as you can pass the interview, you are good enough. And a degree helps getting in the interviews and providing a good basis for your education regardless of the country of origin

[vapid jay]

Alr thanks

[smoky quest]

tbh, it won't matter when you make >= 115k$/year

[vapid jay]

Nah I just mean normally the school system would lead people to productive adventures if the prices weren't inflated.

[smoky quest]

yeah, US is pretty bad in terms of educating its population

[vapid jay]

Yeah, so you have general distortion and misallocation of resources because of how banking works.

[smoky quest]

but still, UC schools are pretty cheap for in-state education

[vapid jay]

😮‍💨 bankers man

Banks are the worst thing about the US I hate them so much.

[smoky quest]

look for grants and loans

Banks are gonna be your BFFs once you start making money

[vapid jay]

Yeah, but they cause overproduction and market distortion and protect big interests.

[smoky quest]

doesn't mean shit if it helps you get ahead

[vapid jay]

Kind of

[smoky quest]

Don't get me wrong. I am from Europe and I was getting paid to get a degree

so am all for it

[vapid jay]

Europe seems more fiscally sound than the us. At least the pound is worth more.

[smoky quest]

But you should use whatever tool is at your disposal to maximize the outcome of your career and your life

[vapid jay]

Yeah, I will lol

[smoky quest]

If it means getting a student loan to make multiple times the salary, then it's worth it

[vapid jay]

I just need big fed money to pay nothing in taxes already. 😹

[smoky quest]

whatever it takes

[vapid jay]

Computers is actually really fun. I love problem solving. I am happy I can sit back and digest a lot of stuff my mind will be so big. I'll find my niche to fill eventually I am really happy right now. 😌

[smoky quest]

looks like you are also still early in the journey.
So do not hesitate to try different things to see what vibes with you

[vapid jay]

Yeah, I am still in highschool lmao

I have so many interests 🤣 . Its great because I can be happy in so many things.

[smoky quest]

yeah, so try games, mobiles, webapps, embedded, etc.

[vapid jay]

Idc much for games. I mostly like intellectual work(sciences, philosophy etc.) and general problem solving.

[smoky quest]

make sure also to get your grades in order to maximize the acceptance rate for the schools later

[vapid jay]

Psychology is pretty interesting too.

[smoky quest]

yeah, just explore and try things. It will help you understand yourself better and what you like or do not like

[vapid jay]

Yeah, I am thanks man. :)

[smoky quest]

there are so many things to learn. It's a great time to learn things

[vapid jay]

There is so much more to learn too. :0 My gf knows so much too so it helps me nurture interests and think about things. Its so nice.

[smoky quest]

yep, keeping an open mind

[vapid jay]

Nice nice, I'm really contemplating cuz either I make it big or live an average life. My whole family is successful af, so competing with them is hard. Ig I gotta do summin yk

[sudden quartz]

What do you consider making it big?

[tidal laurel]

hiii im thinking of choosing bachelors of IT and business
is it a good choice
i have interests in both CS and business

[vapid jay]

7 figures per year, not just through my job. But other business aswell. I've got ideas so I might be able to make something huge

[near ocean]

7 figures is really unrealistic

[tidal laurel]

he mentioned other business too

[near ocean]

Doesnt make it any more realistic, do you know a lot of people running 2-3 businesses?

[tidal laurel]

btw any opinions on this

[tidal laurel]

fairfair

[tidal laurel]

[main sleet]

What do you mean by IT… it’s a very broad term, what does the course content look like?

[sudden quartz]

you should be able to choose a major that does both. Computer science is not the major you want. You want ISOM or something more technical and business focused.

[summer roost]

About 0.3% of Americans make a million dollars per year or more. Three out of every thousand isn't nothing, but it's hardly common, either

[wide sun]

i'd say most of those 0.3% are entrepreneurs, rather than salaried people

[summer roost]

Sure, I'd expect so.

[vapid jay]

Yeah, some of my friends r making millions. (15 yr old ik is a multi millionaire already)

Need a salary to start business tho, money doesn't come from nowhere. Unless u take a loan

[near ocean]

Very much doubtful a tween is making millions, is this daddy's money youre confusing?

[vapid jay]

No lol, he made a proxy company that launched off. Man is quite smart with business. And most big owners on discord make 4 figs per month easily. Some even 5

I myself have made like 1k off of discord with 350$ initial investment last month

Being good at programming would give me a head start I would say, because I can bring my ideas to life and do startups.

[mortal wedge]

As someone who has been a part of a few startups, keep in mind that it's a lot of hours for little pay and unless you have good funding, you'll have to make sales pitches for funding and wear a lot of hats (do more than just code). I'm not trying to discourage you, just trying to lay out some of the work ahead.

[vapid jay]

Im good at marketing and selling stuff, so it won't be that hard. But the thing is, everyone has an advantage. Some have rich parents, some are skilled at developing etc. So it's really hard to compete with just one skill. If I master programming, my marketing skill with that combined would give me a good advantage to compete with these young entrepreneurs making mid 6 figs

[inland widget]

what do devops people do

[balmy mural]

Also keep in mind there's a lot of survivorship bias. You see and hear about all the successful young entrepreneurs making mid six figures, but you don't hear about the multitude more who have failed.
You won't be successful if you don't have the drive and right mindset, but even that can't guarantee you success

[smoky quest]

so it won't be that hard
These are famous last words.
Most startups fail. Not because people are stupid (some are) or inexperienced (some are), but because it's insanely hard.

[olive hazel]

Can confirm. Started my own company once. Lasted about 2 years. Folded it because it was an absolutely miserable experience. Most people underestimate what "hard" means when it comes to entrepreneurship.

Much prefer being a well-treated well-paid employee

[grim star]

Who uses Arduino? How do I switch to use python instead of C?

[summer roost]

Most by a wide margin. More than 90% of startups fail within the first three years. It takes skill and luck and salesmanship to make a startup succeed.

[lament pawn]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[lusty heron]

Sorry

this is a job post actually

[lament pawn]

Check the channel description

[lusty heron]

will keep in mind from next time

[smoky quest]

yeah. There is a sweet spot where it makes sense to do a startup. And that's also in some very specific conditions. Otherwise it's just more preferable to go with a larger company

[vapid jay]

Yeah I understand that, the luck variable is the most risky. Sure it's hard, but it's possible to atleast overcome that. But if luck is not on your side then ur fucked

[smoky quest]

Luck does help. But regardless of luck, it is still insanely hard.

[vapid jay]

Idk, maybe Bec I've talked to so many successful people it seems like those who don't work the right amount of hard and r not smart enough obv don't make it but those who do make it. Sometimes it's luck, but most of the time it's just pure skill and dedication

[vapid jay]

Yeah, countless hours and just competition. I've experienced it. U pass one level and the next is even harder. Sometimes it burns u out but ig that's the catch

[summer roost]

That's survivorship bias that you're describing.

[smoky quest]

Unintentionally, you have exactly described the survivorship bias. Have you also talked to people who have failed?

[vapid jay]

Yeah, but the number is less Bec I'm not interested ig. All of them have some type of fuck up somewhere. Which I can pick out

I recalled just based on my family atm, and everyone on my mom's side is successful, my dad's side not so much (except my dad who worked hard)

[near ocean]

Imho if you can pay the bills and live a comfortable life youre successful. Everything else is just fluff

[vapid jay]

Yep, everything else is just extra. But goals exist and mine are beyond just living comfy.

[near ocean]

Sure but at some point you gotta realise that chasing numbers isnt all there is to life

[smoky quest]

I would recommend to seek out more examples that are outside of the family. People being in the same family will tend to exhibit similar patterns, whether good or bad

[summer roost]

If you're thinking about founding a company, you might want to spend some time reading Hacker News - http://news.ycombinator.com

That's a news aggregator that's associated with a startup incubator, and the comment sections are full of voices from entrepreneurs, about what worked out well for them and what mistakes they made and where they just got unlucky

[vapid jay]

How else would u help the starving children in some 3rd world country. Or let's say you just want to put a roof over some orphans. Maybe pay medical bills of old people. Money money money. It's sad but I've looked at every other option (atleast I think I have), it's either power or money.

[vapid jay]

Ah well, I do learn from all my mistakes. So that would be helpful

[summer roost]

I think it will be really helpful for you to read some testimonials from people who put in 100 hours a week for years and couldn't make it work.

[vapid jay]

Ofc, I will lyk whenever I have gathered enough data if u want

[smoky quest]

definitely!

[smoky quest]

there is also lobste.rs and the discord from the reddit startup

[summer roost]

A lot of successful entrepreneurs will say that luck is the biggest factor in success by far, followed by salesmanship, with having a good product way behind.

[vapid jay]

U see, even if I do. I will see some faults and errors in their work.

[summer roost]

Cool. Well, they tell their stories so that others can learn from them.

[smoky quest]

that's a bit presumptuous though

[vapid jay]

Probably the worst thing I've seen in this business world is that u have to trip someone else to get forward.

[smoky quest]

There is a big difference between armchair entrepreneurship and being in the heat of the fire

[summer roost]

I think often the best moral of their stories is that they should have given up sooner, honestly.

[vapid jay]

It is yeah, but I will still see data and analyze

[vapid jay]

Depends on what they r doing. How good they r at it. And alot of variables

[summer roost]

I think you're overly optimistic about your chances, but either way, hearing the stories of people who've been through it - both successes and failures - can only help you in the long run

[vapid jay]

https://news.ycombinator.com/
Is this all news about startups or?

[summer roost]

It's general tech news, but a lot of the top commenters are entrepreneurs, since it's associated with Y Combinator, which is a big start up incubator

[vapid jay]

I've worded most of my sentenced that way but I do see places where I could fail. Or anyone could

[near ocean]

Thats the news feed, its general tech, i think youre looking for https://www.ycombinator.com/

[summer roost]

I did mean the news feed, because of things like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18033802 that pop up on it, and the ability to read other people's stories from there

jey

Lessons From a Failed Startup — From and For First Time Founders

Hacker News · Sep 20, 2018, 4:47 PM

But yes, also YC itself is obviously a useful resource

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19386758

perfect_loop

Ask HN: Startup failed after years of work – Can I even get a job now?

I quit college to work on my startup. After 7 years of work, it's almost game over (will be shutting down in a few weeks).I haven't worked for anyone in years and I don't have a degree, but I've been coding for a long time, shipping real products to real customers... How do you think I should prepare for the job market? I'm 31 if it matters at ...

Hacker News · Mar 14, 2019, 5:38 AM

[vapid jay]

have you seen what happened to OF ?

[summer roost]

The "Ask HN" threads in particular tend to give a lot of insight into how things worked out, or didn't, for founders

[grim star]

I’m wanting to use python for my Arduino, how do I connect my programming language to react?

[woeful swan]

Hi guys, I've been a python developer for 4+ years. Are we allowed to post job listings here? Or is that forbidden? I want to make sure I'm following the rules.

[bold vale]

You can but nothing paid.

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[woeful swan]

Awesome, that's what I figured

[fickle flax]

hello, how can i gain metrics for a job or make impact so i can show it as metrics in my future resume?

a lot of resume show " saved company 20k $" or " reduced worklaod to 30% and optimze up to 50%" etc

i wonder how to give same impact to a software internship?

[worldly python]

Any Cyber-Security Engineers here?

[urban hornet]

Hi, I'm a little over a month in on my Python journey. What are the best resources for learning Python? I am currently studying IT and want to specialize in cybsecurity.

[radiant moon]

!resources
I think those are for beginners though

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[prisma forum]

Lmk if you find an answer, in the same boat as u

[peak halo]

They're not all strictly for beginners per se but we're working on making it more obvious which resources are and aren't.

I don't believe we have any for security at the moment but this will hopefully change.

[molten silo]

how can i use python for developing games or apps...

[severe topaz]

very broad question, but maybe check this for inspiration https://github.com/willmcgugan/textual

[north glacier]

raidor flag

[wild ore]

What is it like to be a Software developer in Python in India?

Very easy to learn language, almost all libraries are available, few commands and job done. Do the corporates value this work?

[near ocean]

You think you wouldnt be working on giant codebases just cause youre using python?

When has any sort of marketable project been "few commands and job done"

[sudden quartz]

Cyber security pros should know C

[minor plover]

forget about jobs getting even a good internship is a pain

[mortal wedge]

This is something you should try to always do on a resume, quantify results. Even if you're guestimating. Like....
Bad: "Learned new software tools that made me a better coder"
Good:"Learned new software tools that increased coding efficiency by 50%"

That example is a little weird and it's hard to give discrete metrics like this when you haven't worked before, but it's good practice.

[fickle flax]

Yeah okay, it just how can i do that then

How can i give metrics for a company? Im going to start my first career in SE but i dont know how to provide impact so that when i finish job i can add metrics on resume

All i know is i can implement the code

[mortal wedge]

Focus on doing well in your job and if opportunities come along to take more responsibilities then take them (if you feel like you can manage them).

[fickle flax]

Oh okay, so how can i identify these opportunities? Would it be okay to ask what helped you to do that?

[mortal wedge]

Sure. There's a couple ways to do it, depending on company/culture. The most straight-forward way would be, after you've proven yourself, tell your boss you're interested in taking up more responsibilities/opportunities. If you have a good working relationship with your boss and you've let them know you're interested, they'll probably give you responsibilities/opportunities they come across that align with your skillset.

I'm not sure how much my personal story helps, but there was a big project that nobody wanted because everyone thought it would fail. I jumped on it, poured all my hard work into it, and now it's succeeding.

[fickle flax]

Oh okay thanks

[sudden quartz]

has this percentage thing been shown to be effective?

"i increased my programming skills by a factor of 3" just sounds comedic

I can see "I went from being able to complete 2 algorithms in a hour to 4" being effective

[near ocean]

I dont think you should mention how you got better, who cares if you can solve 3 leetcodes in 1 hour as opposed to 2
You should be showing how you affected your company/project

ie

• Wrote server logic to cut down company costs by 10%
• Refactored legacy code to give x product a 25% speed increase and reduce loading times by 1/2

[sudden quartz]

Agree, thats different and better, the given advice was on listing personal development

[smoky quest]

Try to relate and understand how your tasks fit in the grand scheme of things. Whoever will give you task should be able to tell you why you are doing it

[smoky quest]

That specific example would probably hurt the candidate than help them.
I would expand more on the point of the algorithm or specificities which could be talked about

If it's an open source project or has users, then these can also be metrics

[near ocean]

If youre working at any decent company then surely theres a way to track your contributions to a project, ask your supervisor

[vapid jay]

Any jobs related to programming that make a lot of money and isn't stressful or boring

[prime sail]

is Business intelligence a good carrier? or should I just stick with web dev?

[smoky quest]

yes

[smoky quest]

If you want the easy jobs, then there are more applicants and therefore no need to pay as much.

[vapid jay]

Can u give me an example of some jobs though

Related to programming

[smoky quest]

no because it's not about programming. It's about the company

programming is pretty low stress by most standards

[vapid jay]

I mean like, data scientist, software engineer, just list of jobs and I'll choose one and pursue it

[smoky quest]

they are all interesting and not stressful

[vapid jay]

ok I got a problem though. I doubt I'll be able to get a job because I self learnt everything and I don't wanna get a degree because its a waste of time if I've already self learnt everything

[smoky quest]

there is a load of bad misconceptions here

If you are that good and learnt everything, then you won't have a problem finding a job

[vapid jay]

but I'm sure all they care about is the degree

they choose degree over skill, no matter how much projects they will get shown, they choose a degree over skill

[smoky quest]

so a degree is not a waste of time

you are also under the wrong impression that you have to choose degree or skill.

[vapid jay]

ok but a degree leaves me with debt and wasted time

[smoky quest]

A debt you can repay back very quickly and it's definitely not a wasted time to get more educated

[vapid jay]

To get re educated*

if I've already learnt everything

[smoky quest]

I think you overestimate yourself

If that's the case, then you won't have an issue passing the job interviews

[vapid jay]

I'm not, just saying I got years left until job

And I would have learnt a lot of stuff from now and then

ok so what job though?

I need something with high pay

[smoky quest]

webdev might be the best ratio for you

[vapid jay]

I don't think they make that much in England

[smoky quest]

but don't expect the highest of pay

[vapid jay]

how much at min and max would I get payed

Ik it depends on company

[smoky quest]

depends on location and experience and how well you do in interviews

[ivory sluice]

have you searched the job boards in your area for the positions you're qualified for?

[vapid jay]

well not yet, like I said. I got years left until job

[smoky quest]

probably less than 50kgbp

[ivory sluice]

you can still look

[vapid jay]

how much would a full stack dev make on average

[smoky quest]

55-60kgbp

[vapid jay]

oh, is it possible I could make more by like ranking up in the company or something

[smoky quest]

but without a degree and being as presumptuous, you would probably be around 40k

[ivory sluice]

how many years before you plan on entering the workforce? why not start now since you have the skills? or are you still legally obligated to be in school right now

[vapid jay]

I'm in school

I was thinking about a computer science degree

[smoky quest]

cs schools are different than your HS

that will be a lot more interesting. So you should definitely go if you can

[vapid jay]

Ok but after the degree, I might go for full stack dev?

do You think it's possible to make like 80k a year in England doing full stack dev

[smoky quest]

after the degree, you can do anything. a CS degree gives you a lot of opportunities

[vapid jay]

👍

[vapid jay]

??

[smoky quest]

not out of school, but eventually yes

[vapid jay]

thanks ♥️

really appreciate the help

[near ocean]

How do you learn everything

[vapid jay]

Khan academy

[near ocean]

Learning is a never ending endeavour and if you dont know that im not sure you can claim to have learnt everything

[vapid jay]

I did not claim that.

I guess I interpreted the word everything as in, anything

[near ocean]

Lagpixel did

Surely if you know everything you could find a job anywhere
Put together a portfolio and apply to Jane Street

[vapid jay]

Why do you say Jane street?

Anything particular about it?

[near ocean]

It pays the big bux and its hard to get an offer

[vapid jay]

What are that hardest companies to get into?

[sudden quartz]

McKinsey

NASA

[vapid jay]

And google and Facebook right?

[opaque bloom]

Eh… I wouldn’t have thought those two were super hard to get into. The formula for getting a job with them seems well understood.

[near ocean]

The hardest positions imho are quant positions in big banks and hedgefunds

But those are only tangentially related to python

[vapid jay]

But why is that?

[vapid jay]

Isn't a position at Google a boost to your resume?

[near ocean]

Because it takes heavy maths to go with some decent software engineering
Also, youre handling people's money and so they want you to be extra stacked on the intellect stat

Most quant positions i see ask for at least an MSc

[vapid jay]

What kind of maths? Statistics?

[near ocean]

From statistics to linear algebra to calculus to all kinds of other wild things

[vapid jay]

Like, I do have those, but wouldn't consider myself too heavy on the intellect stat.

[near ocean]

For example the very basics of modelling option prices with black-scholes model needs some understanding of stochastic calculus and random processes

God this is giving me flashbacks

[vapid jay]

What's the more advanced topic in quant?

[vapid jay]

Why? 😅

[near ocean]

Deriving this sort of things in school

[vapid jay]

The maths doesn't look too bad tbh

But I feel like I would have to study to get into the conceptual side of the subject

[near ocean]

Its okayish if you have some structured syllabus to help you learn all this and have a solid foundation i guess
I would not want to learn any of this nonsense by myself

[opaque bloom]

Yes and no. If I hear “at google we did X” it’s a massive red flag for me. Context for technical decisions matters and rarely is a business at google scale.

[ebon tundra]

Hello all, First time in this server, and hope to rely on this group as I am a budding Python coder. I am slowly getting the basics and getting back to school for a computer science degree.

I have alot of things going on with me : got a 3rd baby coming, trying to figure out if we should move or stay where we are, and just hoping I can make end meat for my family and keep everything in order, **I guess my biggest question for you who may have it, what would you do if you started over with python to get your career up and running? **

I don't think I know enough to do anything big yet, but i hope to get to that point sooner than later

[smoky quest]

that's a bit too vague to give a concrete answer

[ebon tundra]

sorry

[smoky quest]

Not that I have seen. You can't have top of the crop when you have hundreds of thousands of engineers

[solid lark]

I'm in similar situation with you except no kids

[ebon tundra]

So let me try to rephrase my question: **If you had to start back from day one getting into Python, what are some steps you would take to get your Python Career going? How much knowledge would you need to land your first job or gig? **

[smoky quest]

get a CS degree or bootcamp. Preferably a cs degree.

[ebon tundra]

Oh you mean a Computer Science degree?

Do you think it would be pointless or difficult to get any type of job before then?

[smoky quest]

yes. Bootcamps are fine, especially for reconversion, but definitely not worth as much as a real degree and will most likely pigeon hole you into webdev

[smoky quest]

you can try. But the bar to clear to convince an employer to hire you will be higher

[ebon tundra]

Understood and thank you for your thoughts. Another follow up question i have is trying to figure out when I feel I have arrived on a level of understanding the language? I feel I have definitely got a good handle (still trouble with for and while loops and functions) but slowly I am getting there. Did you feel you knew more than enough when you got your first job?

[ocean ledge]

nah

[smoky quest]

yeah, but I also had tons of side projects. There was still a lot to learn but I was enthusiastic about all the things to discover. So I worried less about what I didn't know and was more into learning.
The main bar to clear for you are:

• Your competition: Why hiring you when I can hire a fresh grad with a degree?
• The job req: Can you do the tasks as specified in the job req?
• What is your cost function comparing to the ideal candidate. The closer you are to that ideal candidate, the easier the decision.

One corollary is to look at your current experience to leverage that in your new job to your advantage. Ex: leadership experience or domain expertise

[solid lark]

what type of side project employers are mainly looking for? app development?

[ebon tundra]

^ Good question,

[smoky quest]

The closer to what you would be doing, the better.
But it's better to look at it in terms of skills you want to demonstrate. I am not gonna judge the taste of your project. But I would definitely look into the skills it demonstrate

Like for frontend, can you demonstrate craftmanship (build, tests, doc), real time updates (ex: websocket), autocomplete, interactions with the backend, etc.
For backend, I would look for craftmanship as well, but also how you architectured it, how you use the DB, if you use a cache, if you use queues for asynchronous tasks, how you handle failures and scalability, etc.

That's also why one of the typical project is the ecommerce website where you have to manage sessions, carts, fetching data, etc.

Also note that you shouldn't just send me a link to your github profile for me to figure it out. It's up to you to bring the information to me. The benefit is it helps you control the narrative and direct what I see. It avoids me droping out because I don't have time to figure out what I should see or to get lost and loose interest and miss what you wanted me to know

[ebon tundra]

So, with that being said, I'm sure when I learn enough I can get to the point I can learn that, but would you recommend video or sites to practice this?

[smoky quest]

I am old school. I tend to find videos have a very low ratio of information and take way too much time. They also don't go too much in depth.
So I tend to use books

[ebon tundra]

okay, any books?

[smoky quest]

what subject?

[ebon tundra]

oh on the eCommerce and learning to program to that end?

[smoky quest]

https://www.cosmicpython.com/ if you are beyond the basics

[ebon tundra]

Sweet thank you!

[grim star]

What’s a good source to learn about component board pins?

[buoyant seal]

Thanks. That is something I will need/read too.

[wooden crescent]

yo! can anyone help me out creating a cv?

[quiet prairie]

Hey so like Im going to college focusing on a bachelors in CompSci and I really really want to code with Python and do back end development how can I go about it

Should I just stick it out during college and focus on getting the degree? Or should I be trying to get internships with places and stuff? Im just really like confused on how I can break into any coding as a career because its all im really motivated to do

Does anyone have any advice on this by any chance? Im pretty new to coding and have like 3 or 4 very small programs Im coded like "Farenheit to celsius" or whatever type stuff and I also made a pong game so very rudimentary stuff I think but I just feel like Im running on a hamster wheel getting nowhere

[dry sapphire]

internships are very useful. what you know is important, but whom you know is generally even more important. companies don't hire the person who fits best, but the person they know of whom they think fits best.

[quiet prairie]

Are there any particular ways I can start networking with people that can help me land an internship? I live like dead in the center of Irvine so Im not sure if I should be going to bars to meet people near companies or like emailing people or what

[dry sapphire]

I have no idea where Irvine is, but often companies will come to universities to scout for talent

professors may know people, classmates who have interned before can set you up, sometimes universities find internships for you...many ways.

[quiet prairie]

Ah ok, cool. Yeah Ive barely even started my first semester yet but like Im already a bit tired of my part time job and kinda wanna start getting involved I guess

[vapid jay]

Any tips for someone just starting their first year in computer science?

[lean moth]

When struggling on a code, don't inmediatly google the answer, but struggle a bit more to get to the answer yourself;D (unless it's a syntax problem ofc.)

[vapid jay]

U just described the exact position I'm in.

[vapid jay]

Discord is a great place to start, if u can start developing small projects or bots, u can get into network hubs with a bunch of developers, owners etc. So I suggest you just focus on creating and learn at college.

[lament epoch]

I just only recently started learning Python and my one friend told me he skipped the basics and just started watching videos that talked him through writing interactive applications and learnt on the go. I wanted to get a third opinion. Basically, should i stick to the fundamentals or would it be okay if i already tried to write more complicated codes using guides? I just dont want to unknowingly give myself a disadvantage

[radiant moon]

only you know how you best learn

[lean moth]

I think it's good to know the basics first, otherwise you might be trying to make/modify complicated code without understanding what you are actually doing

Also it helps you know what kind of tools are at your disposal when coding. For instance, when you don't know what a dictionairy is, you might try to do stuff with lists while it could be made much simpler with dicts @desert violet

@lament epoch * srr for the ping fred:/

[desert violet]

was about to say :p

[radiant moon]

all true -- but none of those risks would justtify iwannakms being paralyzed with fear 🙂 Just code

if you write lot of code, and are always looking for ways to improve, things will sort themselves out

[lean moth]

not really about fear, just don't want him to try hitting nails with a saw is all;P

[radiant moon]

srsly we all do that some 🙂

[lean moth]

And if you want to learn the basics while already diving into coding, try sites like https://www.hackerrank.com/domains/python, to code while you are learning the basics

[rotund oriole]

i want to start learning reinforcement learning

[tame thicket]

i have a job interview tomorrow. i'm a third year college student and this will be my first job. can i get any tips for the interview??

[radiant moon]

yeah -- relax
the odds of getting a job from a given interview are very low, so ...

[wild ore]

Are competitive coding rankings recognised by companies as a valuable asset to be mentioned in the resume?

[radiant moon]

probably varies by company, but I'd expect: nah
maybe for an intern or something but even then probably not that important

[craggy wave]

!mute 634355801917489152 If you're just here to get rid of your own boredom, I recommend a playground

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @visual cargo until <t:1629645546:f> (59 minutes and 59 seconds).

[wise pier]

i can only speak about India. Here they can help you out a lot. Some well-paying companies specifically ask for your competitive coding background

[vapid jay]

I started making C++ programming and im looking for experience Mods , programming , codding

[high juniper]

Not looking for a flame war here, just some honest input on a viability of python as a commercial programming language. I am coming from the background of ansi C and systems development.

I read a lot of different opinions on topic, so I'm looking for a few more regarding the long-term viability of python as a commercial development language.

Please share your programming experiences. Perhaps a more focused question would be, does python have a commercial career versus an academic career?

Thank you.

[high juniper]

From my professional career in systems development, security, and database design, the places I worked with and were contracted by didn't really fit well with what C++ offered as a language.

Businesses that I worked with pretty much fell into two basic camps, hardcore grinding on business which would have been ANSI C or COBOL (or some form of business oriented language), or a full and pure object oriented approach, usually LISP. For my programming career, there really wasn't much Middle ground that paid well in the long term.

Times are changing though and with affordability of hardware not being hosted in shop, that has had a huge impact on a business's ability to focus on other aspects of what they are trying to achieve.

Cheap and affordable VPS systems have really changed and altered the landscape of how businesses can work affordably with very large scale infrastructure and is having a dramatic impact on what languages a business is willing to use or invest in.

For better or worse, I believe Cloud infrastructure has changed the face of programming as a whole and in large scale, opening new opportunities that simply didn't previously exist.

[high juniper]

Spend a lot of time in the lab practicing and learning. Depending upon the kind of instructor you have, a lot of your programming examples are going to be very unrealistic in a real world situation.

The best approach to really learning programming is to take the information your instructors give you and find a way to build a real world example with a meaningful value. Not always easy, as some of what you will be taught will be abstract, however, if you can find a practical use case, it will help you memorize and learn in in a way that will promote better problem solving in the future.

I spent many years teaching computer sciences and programming to beginers 🙂

[snow snow]

Is anyone here in Australia and working in the IT industry in programming?

[vapid jay]

Not me but i know someone. I can give you his tag

[vapid jay]

where are u trying to go?

[high juniper]

I'm where I need to be, I was referring to your previous comment. 🙂

I have more than enough for my plate right now running my own business. 🤣

Think maybe the comments on somebody got mixed up from a response to @vapid jay...

[snow snow]

That would be great!

[tawny creek]

Hi im mehdi from Algeria
Im 15 years old
I learn python 2 years ago
And now i make ai bots and more

[lunar drift]

I'm a python developer from Nigeria.
Pleased to meat you all.

[turbid shuttle]

Meet

[sweet sandal]

Hello I am a beginner in python, I don't know at what level I know exactly something from django, to learn I am willing to help projects without asking for anything in return (free) but in my free time because I have a full job time that takes up a lot of my time. If you are interested and want to help me please contact me personally by email [e-mail] or personally on this channel

[undone valley]

Hey

[sudden quartz]

from scratch?

[primal sandal]

I'm a high school sophomore, and I want to do some theoretical CS like DSAs (more inclined towards algorithms). Any suggestions?
I've read a book called Grokking Algorithms which explained Big-O, Graph algorithms and stuff

[lean moth]

try some challenges on hackerrank/codewars, checked that out?

plenty of algorithms to implement, often requiring a low time complexity

[primal sandal]

And I also want to do a research internship later in the field of CS, so it adds to my college portfolio and it seems interesting.

[primal sandal]

I did some leetcode but haven't practiced much since a long time. I did help a Canadian College Freshman with some of his CS problems, so I think that counts?

[lean moth]

in my uni we often had challenges like in hackerrank, there are harder problems on it as well, and a interview preperation kit

[primal sandal]

So I should practice on hackerrank and other websites after basic DSA?

[lean moth]

WElp it depends, if you are still in high school, You could maybe try some projects, or just train a bit on those websites

kind of hard to get a coding job or even internship without a degree I believe

[primal sandal]

Yeah it's nearly impossible to get an internship (especially in India). I did make a few projects, and am currently learning Kotlin (app development).
But I found the book on DSAs really interesting and wanna learn more about it. And as I said I want to do a research internship in the field of CS.

[lean moth]

I personally am still in uni, just finished my bachelor, so I wouldn't really know what could help you get an internship. but out of curiosity what projects have you done?:D

[primal sandal]

I haven't made any apps since I started learning Kotlin like 2 weeks ago. In Python, all of the projects I have made work in the terminal (not very impressive, but I never did website or GUI). One is Newton's Theorem, Euclid Division Algorithm, Oxidation State and one modified quiz.
All of these are Maths/Chem based projects, and instead of just directly giving the answer it prints the whole working.
I study in India and a lot of importance is given to the working of the question, my aim was to write a code which gives you the full answer (including the step by step working)

The concepts which I've chosen aren't very hard, but I won't say they're very easy either.

[lean moth]

Do you think you know the basics if python so far? currently reading "fluent python clear concise and effective programming" right now, it's a pretty nice book for intermediate python programmers so far

[primal sandal]

Yeah, I know basic Python

[lean moth]

But in general I would just focus on getting some practice with actual coding and focus on getting into a college or uni or whatever can help you get a degree to find a job

[primal sandal]

Won't a research internship help me get into College?

[lean moth]

No clue, it's probably different where I live, someone else should probably answer that:)

[vapid jay]

Hello

[primal sandal]

And I think I like Algorithms and the problem aspect solving much more than the coding part. Even with thr projects I made, the main thing was to figure out the steps

[vapid jay]

hello

notice me bros

[lean moth]

<@&831776746206265384>

[vapid jay]

autocorrect

[lean moth]

ah nvm he changed it lol, srr

[tender thicket]

this channel has a specific topic and intent, it is not for off topic conversation or spam. @vapid jay Keep in mind that spamming to up your message count for voice verification will get you voice banned.

[vapid jay]

nobody greeting me back bruh

[near ocean]

This isnt a channel for chit chat, if you want to chat you can use the three offtopic channels

[chrome ledge]

Hello

What kind of jobs can someone that has learnt python apply for?

Specifically, what are the job opportunities that are available to people that have learnt the language python, not the other things like flask and whatnot, only the language?

[radiant moon]

jobs that require knowledge of python

[chrome ledge]

Like?

[radiant moon]

lots of stuff. Depends on the job. I was being snarky because your question can't really be answered.

[chrome ledge]

Figures, I tried not to laugh at that to be honest

Still though, any particular reasons as to why it can't be answered?

[near ocean]

Do you only know python?

[chrome ledge]

Not really, I know a bit of C# but when I say that, I genuinely mean it, only a bit.

At the moment, I'm in the process of (deeply) learning python

[lean moth]

It's a very broad question tbf. And its always good to know a little bit of maths, statistics etc. not only coding, Also depends on what kind of job you want ofcourse

[chrome ledge]

Ohh, I thought the question was about languages. My bad, I do know a decent amount of math and a bit about statistics

Truth be told, the only thing that I really know of that can be done with python is web development. (Using modules like flask and whatnot)
I know one can also make games using PyGame, but AS FAR AS I KNOW, scalable games can only be made using a custom game engine that can interpret python. Needless to say, that's out of the question for a student like myself
Which is precisely why I asked this question

[lean moth]

Well for instance if you want to use a list, set, dict, orderedDict etc. to store some variables, it's good to know about time complexity, space complexity etc. to make a solid choice. For gaming I would suggest c# or something similar

[chrome ledge]

Yep, for making games, I also think C# is good. That's the reason I attempted to learn it by myself

But still, besides web development which includes back end and front end, what else can a python programmer do? Can someone write entire apps in Python?

[high juniper]

If you're lucky enough to get an internship, there's a good chance coming depending upon the business you are working for, that they may provide your training for you.

A formal education is not always the best approach as quite often what you will learn in college or university is out at date in the business world by the time you actually get into it after graduation.

This is often a perplexing problem with formal higher level education versus real world business structure. Some colleges have internships or on the job training as part of your formal education, and that really is the best way to go as it keeps you in line with what is happening in the real world for a business market.

[high juniper]

Web development has a high and strong dependency on python right now. There are other languages that fit into this curriculum as well, but once you have learned python, they seem to be easy to learn as well as they are orthogically not that different.

[high juniper]

Yes, particularly with the mobile market. Right now businesses seem to have a higher interest in programmers that can write mobile apps. There isn't a day that doesn't go by that the app Store doesn't have some special app just for an online grocery store or convenience store to get points or Rewards or some other perk for being a member of that store. Python makes that type of work extremely easy compared to other languages.

[sage pumice]

mobile apps? python? i don't think so lol

[chrome ledge]

I see, thanks a lot. I have one more question, if someone downloads an app written in python, is the python interpreter part of the downloaded file? If not, then how does a device that doesn't have a python interpreter read that code?

[radiant moon]

generally it isn't
that leads people to ask questions here about "pyinstaller" and "py2exe"

[sage pumice]

tools like pyinstaller will bundle the interpreter in with the executable, and that interpreter runs the code. that's why python isn't well suited for this type of application

[high juniper]

If you are looking to get into that market, this is search may be a good reference point,

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=python+writing+mobile+apps&ia=web

[sage pumice]

python isn't very suited for mobile apps. for that you want swift (iOS) or java/kotlin (android)

[high juniper]

This will probably be one of the best reference points to start with,

https://realpython.com/mobile-app-kivy-python/

[radiant moon]

otoh, mobile apps often depend heavily on web services, and those can be (and often are) written in python

[high juniper]

One of the distinct advantages that python offers is its ability to migrate your application to virtually any platform.

Whether or not python is best served for the practice of a mobile application, that is a subject for intense debate and really goes along with whether or not any other language is best served for mobile platform. Every language has its advantages and disadvantages and as a programmer in a professional setting, you have to weigh those choices based upon development and productivity. Sometimes it is set by the company you work for, but if you are a freelancer, the most important part of the process is going to be turning a product out as quickly as possible with as much consistency and professionalism as possible. Python is one of many languages that has a very robust framework that makes the job significantly easier, at least for the time being.

[sage pumice]

that is a subject for intense debate
it's not really a debate though 🤔 java and kotlin are supported out of the box on androids, and swift is the de facto lang for iOS

[high juniper]

True but it does not support the contingency of migration between different platforms if you have to convert between different languages. JavaScript is pretty much supported across the board like python, but Swift is too isolated to meet that criteria. As far as I'm aware, I have not seen Android adopt Swift to any significant level, at this point.

[sudden quartz]

Any microservices devs?

[sudden quartz]

hmm im no expert on India but research internships are typically for masters degrees. Is university not an option for you?

[sudden quartz]

Absolutely.

[smoky quest]

there is flutter coming up nicely

[smoky quest]

Is it the question?

[sudden quartz]

yes

[smoky quest]

then yes, such people exist

[sudden quartz]

in this server or channel right now?

[smoky quest]

I am sure there are some

[sudden quartz]

https://tenor.com/view/bait-thats-bait-tom-hardy-mad-max-gif-5055384

[smoky quest]

Does it matter how many there are on this server or channel?

It has become industry standard and is there to stay for the years to come

So for the purpose of your career, you should definitely brush up on them if you are looking into backend

[buoyant seal]

I am fully in microservices.

Since any matchs even if just one True is encountered
Here we go, your whole statement became True

[radiant moon]

I used to be; might still be (new job; haven't worked out all the deets yet)

[smoky quest]

That's two of us!

[frosty cape]

Presently, I have no idea what direction I am going so IDK if there is an answer to my question yet but, aside from Python, what languages are worth learning?

[dry sapphire]

it depends on what you wanna do. web dev? embedded systems? ML? scientific computing?

[radiant moon]

go rust java C-sharp kotlin lisp clojure scala javascript C

[olive hazel]

SQL no matter what

don't care if you want to be an interpretive dance theory instructor, learn SQL

[radiant moon]

https://tenor.com/baIiQ.gif

[frosty cape]

Alright, thanks!

[smoky quest]

focus more on the skills and area than the language. The language will come after the skill/area/domain

[red walrus]

Hi

[mystic matrix]

anyone here worked on TCL?

[little tapir]

how would i start learning python

[smoky quest]

It's a better question for #python-discussion

[pale iron]

so i have a chance to work with gov funded ml research organization but i am interested in webdev and data seemed a bit boring to me
so what should i do ? should i suck up my urge to do webdev and work in the faculty or should i leave this one time oppurtunity to follow webdev

[smoky quest]

there is more money and growh in ml than webdev. But that's up to you

[pale iron]

i heard u need to be efficient in research and analysis but i like coding more and instead of data visualization would like a working app so i dont know what to choose

[vapid jay]

Hi

[hybrid girder]

yo

[silk hatch]

So I want to build up my portfolio so I can get an entry level job doing python related things. What would I do to achieve this?

[near ocean]

Start building projects with more and more tech and up to a point where you wouldnt be ashamed of showcasing them

[vapid jay]

I cant decide between ai and fullstack web dev, any advice?

[near ocean]

have you tried either?

[wispy cape]

It's really a completely different career path

[swift saffron]

Is there anyone in bioinformatics???

[frosty cape]

okay thanks

[silent wedge]

Hey everyone, I am currently a Business Analyst working HEAVILY with excel in my day to day and am also looking to move into a potential AI focused career.

Does anyone have tips or insight on how to work towards making the shift?

[gaunt anvil]

maybe change your discord name mate look at yourself

[summer roost]

I know a software dev who plays the ukulele

[summer roost]

I don't have any particular experience with that shift, but I started out doing VBA stuff in Excel on my path to becoming a software developer - it was part of what convinced me to pursue a computer science degree.

That's certainly off topic for this channel - where did you find it?

[summer roost]

If the place where you work has both BA positions and AI positions, you can try to position yourself for an internal transfer into an AI role. Teaching yourself as much as you can about the field would be a good start, obviously

If you find things that need moderator attention, send a DM to @severe widget or ping the Moderators role. Don't bring them up in an unrelated channel.

[vapid jay]

my son and I were appalled to see that

you guys think learning ethical hacking is worth it?

[gaunt anvil]

yea it's a cool instrument but naming urself iamukeleboy sounds gay

[analog sun]

And that is a problem?

[summer roost]

What does the instrument that someone plays have to do with their sexual orientation? And why would someone's sexual orientation be relevant to their career?

[gaunt anvil]

i meant it's weird to name yourself iamukeleboy when you're a fully grown man

[summer roost]

I don't think I agree, but I also don't see what that has to do with sexual orientation or instrument choice.

!warn 735155831108010054 Harassing others over their choice of nickname is unwelcome here, as are homophobic comments suggesting that "gay" is something bad, as opposed to an sexual orientation that people are born with.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @gaunt anvil.

[gaunt anvil]

supposed to be an 'and' there not a but after the comma

@main sleet ffs

[summer roost]

I don't care, but that's also off topic for this channel.

let's move back to the topic: careers and Python programming.

[gaunt anvil]

ok neek

[old pagoda]

hi, getting into coding and all but i dont know if i want to do software engineering or like web development. could someone like tell me whys one better than the other?

[near ocean]

Webdev is software engineering and anyone saying otherwise is probably a salty C/Cpp/rust dev

[old pagoda]

isnt software engineering like programs and all?

[sage pumice]

pretty difficult to make a website without a program

[old pagoda]

would u reccomend 1 of those?

[smoky quest]

it's like comparing a tesla m3 and a car. Which one is better?

[sage pumice]

category error, they're not comparable

[old pagoda]

oh i see

so some what theyre the same thing?

[smoky quest]

webdev is a specialization of software engineering

[sage pumice]

not the same, web dev is a subset of software engineering

[old pagoda]

and theres 3 parts of web dev. front back and full stack?

[sage pumice]

full stack is just doing both front and back

[smoky quest]

some specialization have some degree of overlap 🙂

[old pagoda]

im interested in like back end, i dont know what languages to learn all i know is i need java sql and python?

[sage pumice]

js

[old pagoda]

java is java script or no?

[near ocean]

For backend you can probably pick literally any language out there (and sql)

[sage pumice]

java is java js is js

[smoky quest]

java is to javascript what ham is to hamster

[old pagoda]

so sql is data bases?

[near ocean]

Kinda, theres different flavours of sql depending on what db you use

[old pagoda]

rn im learning python and i though u needed abit more than 2 languages

[near ocean]

Theres no realistic path to a job only knowing a single language, no matter if uts backend, front, full stack, whatever

[old pagoda]

so more that 1 language is pretty much needed

[smoky quest]

focus on python. The most difficult part is learning the first language. Picking up other languages becomes a lot easier after that

[old pagoda]

oh will it, glad to hear tbf been learning python for like 10 days now and its interesting but difficult

[smoky quest]

nice! You will have tons of fun

but keep it simple for now. Trying on learning multiple languages so early will just confuse you and make things more complicated for you

[old pagoda]

ah i see, rn im just confused on what i wanna do later on like back end or software engineering. backend seems interesting tho

[smoky quest]

backend is a specialization of software engineering

it's like saying you don't know if you want to drive your tesla m3 or a car to work

[old pagoda]

starting off do u reccomend me learning python sql then like js? u like comparing things

[smoky quest]

learn the language first. Then you can add on top

https://roadmap.sh/ may be a good resource too

[old pagoda]

i see, after python do i learn sql or a language ex js

[near ocean]

Learning python will eventually lead to databases

[old pagoda]

ty!

whats more in demand back end or front?

[near ocean]

Theyre both about the same i guess?

[old pagoda]

do i learn python then start getting into backend stuff?

[near ocean]

Well yes, cant do it the other way around lol

[old pagoda]

ty man! and would getting a job as a back end dev be hard?

[smoky quest]

depends on how good you are, your experience, degrees, etc.

[old pagoda]

is full stack really hard or no?

[smoky quest]

If you are just starting out learning coding, then yes.

[old pagoda]

i dont get how people like learn these stuff idk, like do u go 1 by 1 learning each thing in for example full stack

[sage pumice]

pretty much. it's hard to learn many things at once

[old pagoda]

how long do u think itll take from scratch to learn full stack\

[smoky quest]

There is a reason people spend years at school for a degree and then years at work to get experience

[old pagoda]

can i learn back end then slowly learn front?

[smoky quest]

you can do anything

[near ocean]

Tbh school doesnt teach any of this lol, i did jsp and goddarn tomcat in uni

[smoky quest]

they do. Not all schools are the same

[old pagoda]

kinda agree my school rn doesnt really teach anything. google and discord and shit is really helping me rn

[smoky quest]

or rather, some do, some don't

[old pagoda]

i can learn in my pace and all and learn like certain parts ig u can say

[smoky quest]

school is there to give you the tools to learn for the next 40 years.
Learning a specific API? don't give a fuck
Learning the theory behind it? definitely something worth it

[near ocean]

I would say most dont
What are the chances youre gonna learn react or spring or django in school

[old pagoda]

theory? u will forget it tho later on cause youll see it wont be use ful tho?

[wraith juniper]

.bm test

hm, this category should be whitelisted

[smoky quest]

it depends. May be part of a course but wouldn't be the point in itself

schools don't actively try to teach you old stuff

[old pagoda]

wait so if i learn backend then slowly front thatll be full stack correct?

[near ocean]

Idk about that, it seems theyre intentionally pushing old java onto most syllabuses

[smoky quest]

lol that wouldn't be their incentives

[smoky quest]

yes

[old pagoda]

ty! means alot answering all these questions

[smoky quest]

no worry.
Keep in mind you are still starting, so you still have plenty of time. Focus on one problem at a time

[old pagoda]

will do!

[ocean ledge]

if you think theory isn't useful you clearly didn't do anything useful

foundations and fundamentals-- any competent engineer will hammer home that those are the things that truly matter. anyone with a few hours can learn an api or framework, thats the easy part

[wild ore]

Is it important for me to cover the exact same syllabus that of a computer science student being a mechanical engineer for getting a job in software development?

[summer roost]

You have a job as a professional mechanical engineer, and want to switch to software development?

I'm not being incredulous, just trying to clarify the question 😄

[wild ore]

no I am a student

[summer roost]

you are a student in a mechanical engineering program, and interested in becoming a software developer?

[wild ore]

yes

[summer roost]

hm. mechanical engineering is a lot further from software development than electrical engineering or computer engineering are - if there's still time, you could look into switching your program to something that's still engineering, but closer to software development.

beyond that: what type of software development are you interested in?

[wild ore]

I am in third year and interested into any kind of development or testing. People around me are saying web dev. but honestly, I just need to enter into this field in the best thing possible once and for all...

[summer roost]

hm. Web dev is pretty far from engineering - lower level stuff, like backend development and systems programming and hardware/firmware development is a lot closer. You may want to look at switching programs, really - third year of a 4 year program is probably not too late to switch to computer engineering, and it's not entirely unreasonable to switch to computer science still (though you probably wouldn't graduate on time if you did)

that said, the skills that will be most important to you for picking up a job as a programmer are some experience developing software (obviously), at least a course on data structures and algorithms, and a course on object oriented software design if you're looking at something high level like web dev.

if you're interested in something lower level, courses on operating systems and security would be really helpful, as would picking up a programming language like C or Rust.

[wild ore]

Like from coursera or udemy or edx? Or some offline coaching institutes?

[summer roost]

I can't speak to any of those personally. I've never really used any of them.

From your college/university if possible - having the course on your transcript would be helpful.

[wild ore]

In India, there is a mooc platform called NPTEL which provides with courses and certification from top universities like IITs. Will that be valuable?

[summer roost]

I couldn't say. I'm not knowledgeable about the hiring market in India.

[wild ore]

Yeah, makes sense.

[wild ore]

As far as experience is concerned, will the internships from platforms like internshala count being done from home?

[summer roost]

I've never heard of that particular platform, but every internship for the last year has been from home for everyone, so - if a company isn't counting internships from home as "real work", they're probably not a company that you'd want to work for.

[wild ore]

Got it. Thanks for your time

[summer roost]

sure thing

[raw frigate]

Hello, I wanted a head start, I am going into 8th grade. Some advice for highschool would be great, what can I do in 8th grade that will help with 9th grade?

[sudden quartz]

are you going to study computer science in college/university

[jovial hatch]

Hello, Can anyone tell me how to start my career with Computer science. im going to study cs next year. so i want to start with basics of programming

could anyone help me with this?

[cyan pawn]

can i re-apply for sde-1 at amazon if got rejected?

[vapid jay]

!guilds There'll be some here, do note that this channel is for career discussion

[inner wren]

Communities

The communities page on our website contains a number of communities we have partnered with as well as a curated list of other communities relating to programming and technology.

[raw frigate]

College

[analog sun]

Anyone here been able to transition between careers to a programming position? I'm curious how likely it is or if it is something more as a hobby / additional skill

True, and I do like to do that, but I was more curious about the probability of successfully changing career paths

[wise salmon]

Anyone have YouTube channel regarding data science lemme know

[vapid jay]

I am pretty much starting python right now, when will I be able to master it so that i can proceed to HTML?

[near ocean]

You dont have to take things sequentially, you can learn both at the same time

[dry sapphire]

"master" is rather ambitious

[balmy mural]

Looking to apply for my postgraduate next year, I have three options at three different universities. Not 100% sure what I want to do when I start working, but I do know I want to work in a Data Science/Machine Learning/Statistics related field.
For options 1 and 2 I highlighted the electives I would likely take in bold, but that could change depending on which classes are during which semesters.
Important to note that I did my undergraduate at the university that has the best Statistics department in the country, so I have already covered the same or very similar work to what is done in option 3 for Introduction to R programming, Multivariate Statistical Analysis A, and Time Series Analysis.
My question is, which of the three options would set me up in the best way possible for a future in the field(s) I'm interested in?
I have a fourth option of doing my postgraduate in mathematical statistics at my current university, but there's no detailed information released yet as to what it would include next year.

[tender frost]

@stray wyvern As the channel topic and our #rules very clearly state, we don't allow recruitment/advertisement here

[gritty rivet]

People do this all the time. Bootcamps are one route. I'm doing the Nucamp bootcamp right now and I love it so far. Many grads seem to be landing jobs within a few months of graduating

[shadow moss]

As long as all of them are data focused, it won’t really matter about specific courses and your thesis or equivalent will matter a ton more. In Long run, having a Masters will be only factor.

[balmy mural]

Not a masters, so I'm not doing a thesis. Honours degree, and currently I'm not looking at doing a Masters as well before starting working

[shadow moss]

Are you American?

[balmy mural]

First two are research assignments and the computer science faculty is more involved than the statistics faculty, so there is a software development project attached to them. Third option I'm not sure on, but likely more of a research paper

No, I'm from South Africa

[shell tangle]

Guys, what do you prefer : Freelancing or Office for Company or Remote for Company || ?

[shadow moss]

I don’t know enough about South Africa but in the US, few recruiters are going to read past type of degree

[balmy mural]

Yea, I understand that'll get me past initial screening, I'm wondering which curriculum will set me up better for getting past interviews, covering the more relevant work, make fitting into the roles I'm interested in have less new work to learn and more recalling foundations I already did

[dense osprey]

Does anyone has PCEP practice exam docs ?

[shadow moss]

It’s very difficult to impossible goal. Each company does it differently with different tech.

[balmy mural]

So I'm probably best off going with the uni that's most convenient(aka where I'm currently studying, option 1) as opposed to having to basically move out of state for a different uni?

[late sage]

I want to start learning new stuff, but learn for my future job

The problem is I don't know which path to pick. I could be a web developer, mobile developer, I don't know. I don't really like to create visual things but to make things work

[near ocean]

picking a career path isnt easy and we certainly cant tell you what to go for
your only choice is to try everything and decide what you enjoy most

[fringe pine]

Have you already done any programming? What kinds of things do you enjoy?

[hollow finch]

I am kind of in the same situation, so I decided to try all of the things since I am just a student right now and not really looking for a job

[late sage]

We are in the same situation I think lol, I'm also a student and I'm not looking for a job

[late sage]

Yeah, I learned Python in 2018 and since then I've made scripts to automate very simple stuff, Discord bots and recently a Desktop app, which I stopped developing because I noticed Python is not the best at it.

Currently I'm working on a simple desktop app for my dad, nothing serious

[hollow finch]

lol

what do you study? like, I'm in highschool

[late sage]

Kinda off topic but what's the difference between school, highschool and college lol

My main language is not English so I often get confused with it

[hollow finch]

it refers to the levels of studies I am not totally sure cuz English is not my first language either

[late sage]

Lol

Well, I think im on high school too

[smoky quest]

highschool is somewhat 15-18 and college/university anything > 18

years old*

[late sage]

I was correct then, thanks

[hollow finch]

yeah then I stand correct as well I am in hishschool

[olive mulch]

I've done almost 300 LC problems in python. Looking to see if anyone wants to trade/mock interview each other, or if anyone wants to just assist in a mock interview with me. I'm planning on interviewing with most of big tech in 2 months. i have referrals to all 5 "faamg" companies. Looking to do 2 mediums in 40 min or less. Let me know!

[timber arrow]

i am new at this themes haha im an beginner

[vapid jay]

I'm interested in watching !

How bothersome would it be for who's hiring, if I have only one coursework left to do to finish college?

Any good project recommendations for beginners?

[smoky quest]

not much

It's finite in time, not that distracting and obviously I want to hire you. So that's an easy thing to accomodate

[mortal wedge]

!projects Try some of these

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[late sage]

Answering the question, I like to work in logic stuff, make things work. I could work on UI or making visuals but I enjoy making so things would do what they are supposed to

[vapid jay]

Thats actually very good to hear. I have 1 month to finish this. I can either heavily invest in skills/knowledge that would make someone wanna hire me or do the course, which has absolutely nothing to do with programming

[smoky quest]

oh wait. I thought you were talking in terms of starting date

What's the situation here?

[vapid jay]

Thesis submission is 30 September, other than that, have one exam left

Problem is, I'm exhausted beyond belief, and it's getting to be very unhealthy

So I can't do everything and I need to make compromises

Basically will have everything done (including a publication in the computer physics communications), except one discipline.

I believe the thesis and paper are priorities, since they're related to computation/programming and the discipline is not.

[smoky quest]

not sure to follow.
What's the impact if you do or don't?

Do you still get your degree if you don't?

and how does it relate to hiring? Are you employed?

[vapid jay]

Next year I can do it and then get the degree

But it's like 6 credits out of 140

[smoky quest]

If you don't have the degree, then it doesn't count as having a degree

If you claim to do so, you put your ethics on the line

Having a degree can also get your pay higher on the salary grid

[vapid jay]

Can't I just say I'm currently enrolled ?

[smoky quest]

yeah sure.

[vapid jay]

The actual finish line of the degree might be as late as December or next year

[smoky quest]

but as someone negotiating yoru salary, I will still hold that against you

[vapid jay]

Because I still need to do the thesis presentation

[smoky quest]

so don't expect to be paid as someone having that degree

but then it sorts of enter a blurry territory of negotiations

[vapid jay]

I mean, I guess that makes sense. But a degree in a subject unrelated to programming affects the salary?

[smoky quest]

it depends

It's a cost function of how far apart you are. Not a binary answer

[vapid jay]

I think I should bite this bullet and try to get as close as possible to programming/computation. Though if not doing the subject is that critical, I might put in the extra effort.

[smoky quest]

Do you have a job aligned yet?

[vapid jay]

I do not

[barren wigeon]

Hi, I wanted to ask if anyone has any expirience with web development courses, I already know how to program, took few courses in college including databases, but I wanted to take a course to apply to some basic web development jobs so learning Javascript (college was Python and Ruby) and HTML, CSS would be great and I've heard some of the courses are good, I was looking at some on Udemy that I think are the one that look the best.

[smoky quest]

It's gonna take a few months to get one aligned. Time to make a list of target companies, apply, talk to the recruiter, get into the initial talks, etc.

[vapid jay]

Right, I have 3 months reserved for that.

[snow ice]

Hi all, forgive me if this is not a valid question for this discord.

I'm going into a CS major in the fall. If I follow the program as outlined by the university I'll be 2 math courses away from a math minor. Thinking about going for it, but I'm just wondering how much of a boon it would really be (if any) re: employment. TIA

[smoky quest]

if the jobs you are looking for are math heavy, it can only help

[snow ice]

I figured as much, and I'll probably go for it anyway. Not looking for any specific jobs yet as I'm not set to graduate until 2024. I guess it just isn't immediately obvious how much of the breadth of entry-level programming jobs would consider a math minor an edge

[smoky quest]

data science / ml is one such example

[vapid jay]

Thanks buud!

[marsh wind]

hello guys. Any opinion on stock options proposed by startup in this way:
for 1 month duration we can buy 5-10k$ worth of company stocks that will be followed, supposedly by company next round of funding that should, increase the company valuation? (fot the record, in lust fund raising they got ±2.5 millions and for this round the goal is around 10)

[sonic island]

in not sure i understand what exactly you mean, but this reminded me of StartEngine, crowdfunding for startups based on buying shares

[marsh wind]

well the company currently is not public traded. But they offer 1% of stocks at, as I understand "current price" so before the company valuation increases so, on paper, by buying 5k$ worth of it now it should be worth something like 20-40k in 1 years or so due to funding and etc

[sonic island]

I'm still not sure what you're asking, do you want to invest in this, or are you asking whether as a startup it's a good idea?

[marsh wind]

more of the latter. Well I need to clarify some stuff on this with company.... as per sources like https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbes-personal-shopper/2021/08/24/cuzen-matcha-maker-review/?sh=1ce24eea55cf usually you are. not obliged to buy/invest now

so actually you are supposed to sign for your right to buy them in future for some fixed price which is quite different story. So I guess that should be first step to make sure I understand what they mean 🙂

[swift veldt]

As it is, it sounds like an interesting deal. However know that you may not be able to cash out soon.

Having stocks is great if you can sell them (i.e. when the company goes public because the founders may not want to buy back shares in a private manner). As an employee, you might not be able to cash out for a chunk of time after IPO due to contract rules.

for instance, being able to cash out your shares might involve having to wait 1 year post-IPO to do it, and still work there for one year.

the idea behind this is that "historic" owners are tied to the company's value post IPO.

[usually IPO prices are above actual market prices for shares]

[honest pivot]

I would say you should think very hard about whether this company is going to succeed and whether it is going to be valuable. Most startups fail.

[vapid jay]

python + SQL + powerBI what are the career opportunities with these

[honest pivot]

Also it's important to understand whether you are being offered the opportunity to buy stocks, or are you being offered stock options? Options allow you to choose to buy at a later date, at a price agreed upon today.

[vapid jay]

or what are the things we need to learn along with this?

[honest pivot]

But what it sounds like is they want you to decide whether to buy actual stocks now. So they want you to participate in funding the company. I find it odd that they are merely offering you the opportunity to buy stocks, rather than simply paying you in stocks.

[marsh wind]

yes I need to clarify on that point. In past their talks were around stock options that can be bought later but in a recent communication it has been said:

The minimum ticket is 5,000 € and the maximum ticket is 10,000 €.```
which for me reads as if we have to buy now

[swift veldt]

I feels like it is a restricted opportunity, yes. I wonder why a month specificially, though.

[honest pivot]

They don't want to just leave it open, and they probably are trying to motivate people to pay in.

[swift veldt]

given that a financing round is coming, I doubt they are opening it for cash flow reasons.

And it's just 1% of the total.

[honest pivot]

Yes, I agree. Also since it's only 1%. They are just trying to provide an opportunity to you, if you think the company will do well.

[swift veldt]

thus my question with regards to the underlying conditions. I'd not be surprised that getting into this offer entails some clauses where you can't cash out or leave the company before a certain time.

[honest pivot]

yeah, there are probably details

[swift veldt]

it feels like an employee retention offer.

[marsh wind]

they are planning to hold a meeting for employees who are getting this offer on 20th toi answer our question plus, obviosuly we can talk to them 1-to-1 before. I feel like it's important to clarify this asap, bcs stock options should not hurt in any way as I can opt not buy them, but paying 5-10k$ now with a chance they become worthless isn't supper appealing

[swift veldt]

I'd try to rub shoulders with whoever deals with accounting to get a better view of the financial statements 😂

[honest pivot]

Yeah, I hope you can get clearer information. 5-10k is a significant risk for most people. You've already taken a gamble on their future merely by working for them. So I'd say it depends a lot on whether you believe in the company's trajectory.

[marsh wind]

mhm not really doable since basically we have co founders (CEO+CTO) and financial director who is close to the first 2 I doubt they would disclose much unless I can get them drunk in some very informal environment 😂

exactly my thoughts on taking a gamble, it's basically giving back 2-4 salaries with no guarantee on ROI

[honest pivot]

In exchange for actual shares, though. Not a significant enough vote to have any power. But potentially worth something if the company succeeds. Hard to tell.

[marsh wind]

well with stock options i can buy the actual shares eventually, right?

[vapid jay]

yes

[honest pivot]

Here's a way of thinking about it that I find useful. If I own x% of the value of the company and the company is worth y after z years, what does that translate to in terms of yearly salary, if I were simply paid more during that time?

[marsh wind]

I just don't see how potentially actual shares are better for me than sotck options, since, as you said it won't really give voting power

[honest pivot]

Stock options give you the most power, since you can choose not to exercise them. But of course that's why they're not offering them. 😉

[swift veldt]

also it's a leveraged position. You would play now a much lower price per share to have the right to exercise the option later.

[honest pivot]

But regarding my above comment, if the company instead chooses to pay me more, then that's the company taking a risk on me, because they believe in my ability to help them succeed. It's quite interesting to compare these numbers. Do I believe the company is going to be worth some amount in the future? And what does that actually represent for me?

[marsh wind]

well I don't think there is a rhetorics like "buy X shares now or get Y rise"...

[marsh wind]

not sure what you mean, sorry

[young shuttle]

Is there a job board on this discord?

[honest pivot]

Things to ask yourself, basically:

1. Can I afford to lose 5-10k?
2. Do I believe in the company's product/mission?
3. Do I believe in the CEO's ability to carry out that mission?
4. Do we have a healthy customer base? Is it growing?
5. Could I possibly do better with these 5-10k if I invest them somewhere else?

[swift veldt]

an option is a contract to buy in the future. You pay a reservation to maybe buy something at a set price at a specific time horizon.

this contracts costs less than a stock so you can buy more of them.

you increase your risk, but also your ability to make profits

[marsh wind]

ok but if I do not exercise the right to buy them I am not loosing anything right? (except that if I paid some reservation upfront).

[honest pivot]

I'm actually a bit skeptical of this deal after thinking about it some more:

@swift veldt said earlier than 1% of the value means that this is probably not a cashflow problem. But 1% of the value is probably around the level of what the cashflow is! So it may actually be that this is a scheme to cover a cashflow problem.

Secondly, if the owners truly believe that the company is about to be valued significantly higher, what's their motivation to offer that value to you? Are they such nice people? How well do you know them?

If they are so certain of an imminent rise in the valuation, they could offer something like a cash bonus, that doesn't carry any risk to you.

[near ocean]

Yes, if you dont exercise you only lose the cost of the options

[gritty rivet]

Searching job sites like Indeed, LinkedIn, etc for your area is the best way to get an idea.

Python + SQL are key for data engineering jobs. Potentially complementary things to learn in no particular order: 1) container tools like Docker and Kubernetes 2) web frameworks like Django and Flask 3) IT automation frameworks like Puppet and Ansible...

I'm currently in the Nucamp bootcamp for Python + SQL which includes 1 and 2. It also touches on the three big cloud platforms (AWS, Azure, Google Cloud). You can look up their general curriculum on the web.

[vapid jay]

oh great thanks, that's a lot 🤩 🥲

[marsh wind]

well the motivation for founders is, as I understand, when it comes to stock options is to motivate you, as an employee, to
a) stay longer in company
b) work harder to ensure it succeeds
To say that I know them well would be a stretch. I mostly converse with CTO who's a nice person and etc, I have though much less confidence in our CEO. This not to say CEO is not a nice person, but they feel somewhat shady to me, like nice and all on public but.... I would not say I trust CEO words as much as CTO's unless what they say is immediately appearing on legally bounding paper 🙂

for cash bonus and etc, we are supposed to renegotiate the salary after the successful funds rising (this is even written in part of my contract), so it is something that seems to be independent from stocks related question

[honest pivot]

The deeper we go, the weirder this sounds. Are you also being massively underpaid with a promise to renegotiate after the funding round? Were there any previous funding rounds? Are there any actual customers, or is the place running on VC?

[swift veldt]

you will lose the upfront payment, yes

[tawny creek]

Hi

I create my minecraft client with Javascript and python

[marsh wind]

There was funding round about 2 years ago ~2.5mil €. There are several actual customers and products (b2b) but far as I know we are still in cash burn stage, so not enough customers to make up for expenses.
I would not send massively underpaid. I did screw up initial salary negotiations when signing up, I think I could have asked at least 10% more and probably would still get it.

[honest pivot]

I see, ok. Yeah, I wouldn't know what to say, but hopefully you knew that you wouldn't be able to get definite advice about this. But hopefully we gave you some things to think about. I have no idea if I would take this deal myself, it would depend on a lot of things.

[marsh wind]

P. S. We can pass in DMs if you are curious on some more details that I would rather not discuss here

And yes I didn't expect any definitive advice, of course.

[honest pivot]

I don't think I'd have anything better to say if you gave me more details

[marsh wind]

<@&831776746206265384>

[near ocean]

5k minimum "buy-in" sounds like a whole lot
i cant imagine i would go for it in my current situation but does poor old me know

[cobalt lark]

!pban 720420868873912371 nitro scam

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied purge ban to @leaden tinsel permanently.

[marsh wind]

Ok
In this case thanks for insights, I'll try to get some clarifications and perhaps get back to you guys

[swift veldt]

as marioso said. Options are riskier but also yield better returns if they work

[near ocean]

in this case theyre not that risky, the company holds all the risk here, if they go public but their stock crashes they take all of the hit and you just lose the premium for the call contracts
the issue i would have is that 5k is too much for a minimum investment, although theoretically, call options have unlimited returns

if you have the financial cushion to part with the premium needed for 5k's worth of call options and trust the company will perform well once public (enough to have the stock rise even just a bit) this sounds like a decent investment with probable returns, but im not a CFA so this isnt financial advice

[marsh wind]

yeah I need to understand if what they offer is pay now those 5-10k, or these 5-10k are what I will have to pay if in future I want to excerise my stock options rights.

[vapid jay]

is advanced knowledge of c++ engineering and able to solve such code problesm a good chance to get a job as an engineer?

[sudden quartz]

to pass an interview mabye. but its just a language. If you dont have a degree you might need a lot more.

[summer roost]

Remember that if the company does not become publicly traded, having stock in the company is virtually worthless regardless of the company's valuation. It doesn't matter how much the stock is worth on paper if there's no one you can sell it to in order to cash out.

[marsh wind]

that's true, I think other question to ask founders is when/how they plan to make company publicly traded. And even then (if it's traded) I guess depending on how company is doing it might not be evident to cash it out?

[summer roost]

If you exercise the option, you now have stock in the company. If you want to profit off that stock, you need to sell it to someone else who's willing to pay more for it than you paid for it.

Note that >90% of startups fail within 5 years. And the most likely scenario for a startup "succeeding" isn't that it has a successful IPO, it's that the company is purchased by another company.

The best "mental math" for how much stock options in a startup are worth is "0". They are far more likely to be worthless than worth something, but in the quite unlikely event that they wind up worth something, they can be worth a lot.

They're more like lottery tickets than they are like normal compensation.

there are calculators that attempt to give you a better guess at their value, though. Like https://valuation.vc/startup_options.html

[marsh wind]

ok so say startup is purchased by some big company, so what happens than with the stocks? if that company big enough (FAANG or close in scale) they can just keep this startup as subsidiary and never trade it publicly so stocks stay uselss?

[near ocean]

I believe they buy your stock off you whenever a company is bought out by a larger one

[honest pivot]

If the company is sold, then each stock should be worth a corresponding portion of the value, less taxes. i.e. the buyer would have to buy your shares from you.

The buyer could also decide their newly-acquired company no longer needs any employees, so keep that in mind.

[summer roost]

And if it doesn't, then it probably instead lowers the purchase price they're willing to pay for the company to account for the fact that they are onboarding N new employees who need ongoing salaries.

in other words, the price the company is purchased at is likely less than it would be valued at in an IPO

[marsh wind]

the more we go about it, the more it sounds that stock optons is a rather shitty option in most cases 😉

[summer roost]

unless the company is already publicly traded, yes, they are.

[honest pivot]

I mean, it could be the opportunity of a lifetime, or it could mean the opportunity to give away 5-10k.

[marsh wind]

unless I have a considerable capital I can afford to spend on such risky ventures in which case I probably wouldn't have to be here to ask these questions

[honest pivot]

@summer roost What's your opinion of phantom stock?

[summer roost]

that's not a term I've heard before.

[marsh wind]

I know that some companies, whether already traded or still private go a different route and just hand out to employees on their work-anniversary (2 years for example) some amount of shares as kind of bonus/loyalty incentive

[summer roost]

a company giving you shares is certainly better for you than a company giving you the opportunity to purchase shares.

[honest pivot]

Phantom stocks mean that someone is simply given a portion of the value (with various vesting clauses). It's like having stock, but not a vote. When the company is sold, you get whatever percentage.

[marsh wind]

well yeah, not the actual case here 🙂 ~5 y/o startup, about 35 employees. AFAIK not yet profitable/self sustainable.

[summer roost]

ah - not all stocks come with votes; I've only heard of that as getting stock in non-voting share classes.

[honest pivot]

Yeah, I'm not sure what the precise distinction is between phantom shares and non-voting shares.

[marsh wind]

I suppose if you resign you loose any benefits tied to phantom shares, while if you actually own shares they are yours until you sell them?

[honest pivot]

Phantom shares are a separate contract, you keep them when you resign. In fact there are pretty strict rules about cashing them out, because they're usually given to insiders (so, if resigning always triggered a payout, you could time your resignation using insider information).

[spring sigil]

@rustic plinth

[summer roost]

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/phantomstock.asp seems to give a good overview.

[summer roost]

What's up with this ping? It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the conversation that's happening.

[spring sigil]

My fault

[summer roost]

Yeah, then I'll just stick with the analogy: stock in a private company is like a lottery ticket. It might never be worth anything: if the company is never purchased and never goes public, you never get the opportunity to sell the stock.

Stock options in a private company is like someone offering to sell you that lottery ticket, at a specific price of their choosing.

[karmic vapor]

Hey all. I'm writing my first CV for a python developer position. Do you guys have any advice / guidelines (or a FAQ) on this topic?

[short rune]

Can Python only get me a job?(I know 3 langs but just a question)

[near ocean]

That question doesnt make sense, what more do you want from python than stable income

[vapid jay]

say i graduate in CS, get experience working with other languages as well what else would i need?

[smoky quest]

https://roadmap.sh/

[smoky quest]

You will also need communication skills, ability to learn on your own, ability to read code of entire projects you didn't write, and also empathy

[wild skiff]

What is better data science or software engineering

[near ocean]

Better for what

[smoky quest]

What is better: an airbus a340 or a plane?

data science is a specialization of software engineering

[smoky quest]

Or do you mean the difference between writing software and writing software and analyze data to extract insights?

[oblique veldt]

I lost interest in programming

[wild skiff]

So u need to be a software engineer to learn data science?

[potent isle]

hi

can we put any code we write in github or does it have to be a full project

ok thanks a lot. so if I am following a tutorial I can put the code and give reference to the tutorial as well?

great thanks a lot

[wild skiff]

What's the diif between computer engineering, Information tech, computer science engineering

[mental knoll]

you can do a lot with python, almost everything! you can automate stuff, design interfaces, implement backend, rest APIs, data science & deeplearning. there is so much python can offer

[sudden quartz]

Computer Engineering is hardware focused, Computer Software Engineering is software focused. There is a lot of overlap ideally. Information Technology is workforce focused technology skills. Typically likened to business degree area, and mabye cyber security

Also to note Computer Science is more academic and mathematical than business/job focused areas like engineering and IT

[near ocean]

They all sound like theyre the exact same degree, you should be checking the difference between universities, not asking on discord

[sudden quartz]

Yes its important to check the actual program but this is generally accurate when defining the terms

[mental knoll]

I am a final year undergrad. From our on-campus placements I've been selected for two organizations. I got an applied research internship (deeplearning) from a well established company (started in 2014, a very famous food delivery company) and also an internship+full-time software developer role (chatbot focused - they use rasa framework) in a very new startup (est in Jan 2020). I myself am inclined to the applied research internship but I'm worried there is no full-time being offered by them, got any suggestions for me or if you were in my place what would you do?
(Assume I can only accept one role)

[sudden quartz]

this is really up to you. I would take the research internship.

[carmine dagger]

i have some questions regarding ml or data analyst career , can i ask you in dm

[mental knoll]

sure

[sudden quartz]

why not just ask here in the channel?

[carmine dagger]

ok

[mental knoll]

yeah gotcha

[carmine dagger]

i've started data analytics 4 months ago and done few personal projects, now in india whatever companies i apply(oncampus) it is mandatory to clear coding interview round( huanting me)

i never practiced competitive programming or problem solving kinda stuff

but i know the concepts good enough

[mental knoll]

yeah, most of the companies have that initial screening but hey if don't lose hope if you are really good at what you do you'll definitely get into a role of your choice

[carmine dagger]

yeah inorder to get into my preferred role ( i have to clear this coding round) any suggestions?? you guys also prepared for this coding stuff?

[mental knoll]

been in your place, not at all good at competitive coding but I can write clean, neat, concise and readable code. have been studying Deeplearning for a while now and after applying to many many companies I got selected (as I've mentioned before).

[carmine dagger]

so those companies didnt have coding round??

[mental knoll]

Coming to the competitive and DSA stuff, I'd say practice practice and practice, there is no other way. Get enough grip on your dsa skills so that you can quickly come up with atleast a brute-force approach on spot

[mental knoll]

yeah they had, as i said just like an initial screening thingy (not so tough)

[carmine dagger]

can you tell how long it takes ? im an final year ug

[mental knoll]

how long? what do you exactly mean?

[carmine dagger]

to clear coding round

[mental knoll]

it depends from company to company right, some have a very simple first round and other have it very comprehensive

[carmine dagger]

last week i started machine learning ....after hearing this im depressed. and hoard of companies coming in this month ... is there a possibility that we can apply after 6 months for the same companies?

[mental knoll]

that depends on your institute right?
If its off-campus then I guess YEAH
If you are hell bent on getting only an ML/DS job then you have to be very good at it as generally these positions aren't given for undergrads

[carmine dagger]

yeah, i know atleast i need to have back up by getting placed in some role

[mental knoll]

yep

[carmine dagger]

can you give advice for me on how you prepared for ml and dl

so i might correct myself , if you had made any mistakes duringthe process

[mental knoll]

there are tons of resources online. first thing is get good with python (numpy, pandas to begin with) then study the theory of ML/DL, I learnt everything from coursera but there are many other resources (edx, fastai, stanford/mit lectures) and then tackle some problems. this is what i did

[smoky quest]

I would optimize for the benefits of that internships in terms of what you do.
No one will give a damn the company at which you did the interview, but having done interesting things will give you some interesting things to talk about.

In terms of jobs, you should be fine regardless. But it depends also if you are more interested in large companies or startups, which is its own evaluation

[carmine dagger]

i'm really comfortable and proficient in numpy pandas, sql

[mental knoll]

i spent a lot of time learning things, I wish I had applied those concepts simultaneously

[mental knoll]

thanks for the advice

[carmine dagger]

when have you started all this??

[mental knoll]

from my second year (right after the pandemic hit)

[carmine dagger]

cool

[mental knoll]

all the best

[carmine dagger]

thanks