career-advice

[peak halo]

In the United States, classes are scheduled at specific times throughout the week (typically on weekdays), and you get to pick which classes you take each semester. But you don't get to pick when the classes that you pick are taught.

[bronze dock]

There were always some of my required courses that were only taught on tuesday evenings :/ Some courses had a little more variety. I went to a fairly large (US) school though

[peak halo]

And you have to pick classes in an order that will enable you to graduate in four-or-so years. Most classes will have prerequisites so you'll have to be methodical in order to "unlock" the class with the most prereqs by your last semester.

I did computer science in three years, so my schedule each semester has been completely locked in.

after the first year of computer science at my university, there's only one section of each course each semester. Sometimes there's only one section a year and you have to take it in a specific semester.

Usually Monday to Thursday.

[summer roost]

There were a few terms were I successfully scheduled classes only on Monday/Wednesday/Friday or Tuesday/Thursday - but not often. But I also took a slightly higher than normal credit load. There were also a few terms where I was able to schedule only one class on a particular day - couldn't quite get M/W/F, but also one class on Tuesday or something.

for a class that you need to take, it will be offered at some specific time - or some set of different times, that you can choose between. By picking which classes you take which term, you can build your entire schedule around what days your required classes for that term are scheduled on. Sometimes.

[peak halo]

Do you know what the term "section" means in the context of university courses? When you're taking introductory courses that have more sections, you might be able to find a combination of sections where you can have all your lectures in two days a week.

[summer roost]

If you can get all of your required classes for the term on a small set of days, you may be able to specifically choose elective classes that are scheduled on the same days to round out your schedule.

[peak halo]

I've also had semesters where all my lectures were in two days a week because I had to take those four exact courses, there was only one section of each, and they were all on Tuesday and Thursday.

However, if your degree requirements are going to have a lot of courses with only one section a semester, you may have to brace yourself to drop the expectation of flexibility.

It's also worth noting that you'll spend less time in lectures than you do in high school. Typically courses have as many hours of lecture as there are credits for that course. You'll probably only be in lectures for 12 to 18 hours a week.

a "section" is an instance of a course. So you, the instructor/professor, everyone else taking the class together at a specific time, that's one "section".

[summer roost]

and sometimes one instructor teaches multiple sections of that class in one term, and sometimes there are multiple professors for that term that all teach that same class - for some of the early requirements that everyone in the college needs to take, that happens a lot.

[peak halo]

I mean, if you want to broaden the scope to include anything related to computer science, probably 70% of my waking hours.

[summer roost]

what do you mean by "excluding extra curricular studying"?

[peak halo]

I'm not sure why you want to include this in your calculation if you're trying to estimate the time commitment of becoming a CS student.

[summer roost]

Ah. You'll probably have 16 +/- 4 hours of lecture time per term, depending on how hard you want to work yourself. You'll probably have another 20-ish hours of homework and projects. Possibly much more, if some subject doesn't come easily to you.

[calm sail]

At what point of comparability with the initial language is it prudent to start learning a second? And while trying to learn a second should I focus 100% on that or split learning the new language with enhancing my understanding of my first?

[peak halo]

I think it depends on what sorts of things you want to do and if there's another language that better supports those goals.

[calm sail]

I just see a lot of people that recommend learning a second language, and I don't feel completely comfortable with python yet (though from what I've heard being completely comfortable doesn't really happen) but the consensus seems to be it's very important

[peak halo]

You can get to a point with Python where you don't have to refer to the language spec.

[summer roost]

I think learning a second language is always a good idea, once you're pretty comfortable with your first - and I think focusing entirely on that second language for a while, instead of falling back into old habits, is the way to go. I wouldn't do it until you're relatively comfortable in the language you're working in, though. How comfortable are you at reading code? If you re-read your own code that you wrote before, how easily can you understand how and why it works?

[calm sail]

I feel pretty comfortable re-reading my own but I can have trouble reading examples people make when I'm looking up solutions though, and I have to look at documentation pretty often to remember exactly how certain methods are formatted

So probably focus more on python first until more comfortable it sounds like thanks for the advice

[summer roost]

sounds like it to me, yeah. I'd say you're pretty comfortable with a language when you can read someone else's code and your first question is "why are they doing this" instead of "what is this doing"

[calm sail]

Is there a particular place you'd suggest I could look at other peoples code to get the hang of reading it better (and hopefully get ideas from seeing good code)?

[summer roost]

!resources I learned to code so long ago that I can't imagine anything useful I could say in that direction, personally. But these resources might be helpful.

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[zenith haven]

whats the point of employeers doing work benefits instead of just paying the employees in only cash

[summer roost]

What types of benefits do you mean? And what country?

[summer roost]

If you're talking about the US, the two most common benefits are health insurance and 401k contributions. The advantage to the employee of employer-sponsored health insurance is that you get group rates for the insurance, making them cheaper on average than if you were to need to pay for your own insurance. The advantage to the employer is that workers are likely to have fewer serious health complications, and be able to continue working longer. And the advantage to a worker of employer 401k contributions is that it's tax-deferred income - instead of being taxed according to the tax bracket you're in based on your income when you are working, it's taxed according to the tax bracket you're in based on the amount you're withdrawing during retirement. This is often a much lower tax rate, and that's after several decades of it growing tax-deferred at roughly the rate of the overall market.

[gray anvil]

In short: economies of scale. The company has more negotiating power when arranging for preferential rates than you as an individual

[zenith haven]

interesting

[vapid jay]

Quick question.. little bit OT, so I have seen so many recruiters and company say you need 4+/5+ or something like that years of experience in that specific programming language, Does that include time period of our learning + personal projects? or they want industry experience.....like a proper work experience(in a company)...then later if you changing from one job to another? i don't get it.

in short what they mean by experience?

[summer roost]

They probably mean professional experience - but, my advice is usually just to ignore the number of years of experience required entirely. You may know more after using a language for one year than others know after using it for 5. Don't lie or exaggerate your skills, but apply to the job and let them decide whether or not to interview you, and whether or not you skills are a close enough match. Often things that are listed in job postings as requirements turn out to be things they can live without.

[vapid jay]

True

[marble folio]

Anyone here in Canada know if I need language arts 30-1 to get into a computer science course in university?

[vocal folio]

Hii

[dense hamlet]

I want to learn Django, currently i am PHP BE dev (10 year experience). What is the best start point?

[raven shell]

not from canada but i dont think so

[rotund crest]

I just wrote a python test for a quant trading firm and I have to say, I am getting really tired of having so much of my time taken up by what feels like a compulsory leetcode grind.

[vapid jay]

i wanna be a game devloper can anyone help me with track that i should take or how should i become one !

[cosmic crescent]

is there anyone who is familiar with Django frameworks?!

[peak halo]

Go ahead and ask your question in a help channel (see #❓｜how-to-get-help) or in #web-development. The best way to get help is to ask your question outright--don't try to filter for domain knowledge.

[peak halo]

You'll get to a point where you rarely have to look up how Python itself works--you'll mostly have to look up how specific libraries work.

I don't think there's any standard for how many languages known is "a lot" because it's hard to quantify proficiency in a given programming language. Once you learn one language, you can quickly learn the fundamentals of another language with a similar paradigm, but that doesn't mean you'll be able to undertake large projects in it.

For programming, typing speed is not going to be the bottleneck for how long it takes you to program something. Understanding the problem you're trying to solve and coming up with a solution, and then debugging it, is going to be the vast majority of the process.

I'm not sure I see how that's relevant

[near ocean]

You can write expanding snippets if thats your worry

[peak halo]

Right, but like I said, being able to type out for x in some_collection at breakneck speed is not going to make you a better programmer.

[hearty island]

aren't for loops like auto completed anyways with the suggestions your IDE gives you

[peak halo]

It still sounds like you think the speed at which you type code in a language is important. Being able to understand problems and design a solution is the real game here.

Have you worked on any interesting projects in Lua?

[lone geyser]

Did u report me

[peak halo]

No; I'm a moderator in this community. Please DM @severe widget if you have any questions.

[mortal wedge]

Just to help give you some clarity in future responses, many companies do have internal recruiters. So referring to a recruiter can be a bit ambiguous when you're talking about an outside recruiting firm.

They have more of a motivation to be personally vested in you because they want an ongoing relationship, if you don't get hired at a place or if you get hired but later on need to job search again, they want you to come to THEM for your needs.

Not doing so would be a disservice to yourself. Is it absolutely necessary? No. But are you probably improving your chances? Yes.

Pytest and mypy have been important for me. Haven't used hypothesis, do you find yourself using it in industry?

LOL what. But... they must have used SOME sort of version control software, right? If not git?

[leaden jasper]

I know in the few times I've helped with recruitment it was a minor concern if someone didn't have a LinkedIn. We didn't care if it was active, it was just a basic check of "hey is this person legit and do they exist"

[mortal wedge]

That is true. I've used linkedin to verify if a job recruiter/offer was valid and since their linkedin link went to someone else's profile I had to call their company to verify their indentity.

[little trellis]

Lol I think they just had backups and file names with versions appended or something insane. That place was the biggest mess of an operation I’ve seen haha. It’s basically what got me into being a dev full time since it became apparent that it was better to develop things for my team myself than go through the standard dev channels haha.

[mortal wedge]

At my college, you could pick your class times/professors, but depending on how early you got to select classes/times sometimes all the convenient times would be booked up and all that's left are the classes that met every day.

[summer roost]

I haven't actually used hypothesis personally, but I have some co-workers who swear it was useful to them on specific projects, for sort of automated fuzz testing.

[mortal wedge]

At schools I'm familiar with, you take a certain unit courseload, so anywhere from let's say 12-18 "units". Each unit was recommended to be 1 hour of lecture and 2 hours of homework/studying. Depending on your efficiency and proficiency, some classes might take more or less than that. So 36-54 hours of your week roughly would be accounted for by being in class or studying.

[mortal wedge]

Hmm. I'll look into it. I think I also need to look into automated pytesting for pushing even in feature branches. The times I forget to pytest without hestitation always seem to be the times when my build fails or has some other issue >.>

[mortal wedge]

For me, working at a smaller company has given me more flexibility in terms of which projects I choose. Maybe that some of environment would be more fulfilling for you?

[mortal wedge]

You can check out #game-development and/or pygame module. My best advice for getting into game dev would be to learn another language. Python isn't that common in gamedev and when it is used it isn't used exclusively. This is due to performance and speed generally being the bottlenecks on games, especially AAA games where people love their graphics and hate lag/slowdowns.

and copy paste 😄

As you progress in your career, you're going to be working on less projects like this and more where you have to sit and think. This sort of coding is generally only given to junior devs.

[vapid jay]

yo

[mortal wedge]

Have you ever considered competitive programming? From the way you've talked about programming that might be of interest to you.

[rotund crest]

My grievance is mainly that my area of expertise is mainly in stuff like stochastic differential equations and monte carlo methods in finance, but the majority of my early interview rounds always begins with asking me to do something like linked lists or string manipulations

[mortal wedge]

I'm guessing you're in the U.S.? It's a common grievance. US companies love giving DSA tests as a way of screening applicants, their logic is that if a candidate doesn't know how to do the basic stuff, they probably don't know how to do the advanced stuff and they'd be wasting their time. I understand your frustration, the skills to land a job are not necessarily the skills you'll be using on the job.

Ah, wasn't aware it extended beyond the US. Good to know, thanks for the info.

[rotund crest]

I am in Canada

[hearty island]

ah yes linked lists... loved by recruiters everywhere

[mortal wedge]

They love it because that basic level of understanding may also be all they have. Even if they were CS majors, they probably don't remember how to balance red-black trees anymore, but they know their basics

[hearty island]

I didn't even cover red-black trees 🥴 I just did self-balancing trees

[mortal wedge]

It's okay, I never covered them either 😄

[rotund crest]

It's just exhausting that everything feels like they test you as if you were a CS major even when you're not one. I could have likely come close to just finishing my missing course requirements for a CS double major from the time I spend jumping over this interview hurdle.

[mortal wedge]

I hear you. I just buckled down and learned the stuff, with the help of resources like this community and a book called Cracking the Coding Interview. It was annoying, but it's a skill that can be improved like any other.

I also took a basic dsa course on coursera that helped tremendously

[hearty island]

which course... was it in Python? There's a good Java course on there in ds/algos

[mortal wedge]

The DSA course? Not specifically, you could choose your language.

[hearty island]

what was the name of the course?

[mortal wedge]

I took the "Algorithmic Toolbox" course in the Data Structures and Algorithms Specialization, as well getting into the second course in the specialization (but I got a job mid-course and abandoned the course)
https://www.coursera.org/learn/algorithmic-toolbox/home/welcome

[rotund crest]

I'll take a look at a DSA course thanks. Some of the leetcode stuff required techniques I wasn't that accustomed to so maybe that'll speed it up if nothing else.

[mortal wedge]

There are free resources out there, but I really liked this one. (This one was paid.)

[true harness]

in languages with c-style loops yes, since there's so much boilerplate. but in python the only boilerplate is "for" and "in". everything else is determined by you

[hearty island]

ah ok

[whole mantle]

Best websites to practice Python?

[buoyant seal]

what do you expect exactly from practice? in which form? and at which level?

[misty rampart]

Same doubt here too

[whole mantle]

I'm reading a python book and after every chapter there are some exercises about the chapter. I finished all the fundamental chapters and exercises and I'm now starting the Inheritance chapter. I want to do some exercises to practice everything I learnt, I will learn alot from that I think.

[true harness]

i can recommend two websites: codewars and codingbat

[misty rampart]

Any suggestions for making easy money with programming to pay for college fees??

[mortal wedge]

Freelancing or working as a teacher's aide maybe?

[buoyant seal]

when I studied at university, I made my extra money by working as system administrator (also known as computer help or any key master)
The job was literally at the same floor, where was our faculty
Try to see, perhaps your university has the same

Not really programming, but a least related to computers a bit ;b To get small hang of linux

[misty rampart]

As a programmer or web developer maybe??

[mortal wedge]

Either

[misty rampart]

How to go about with it??Where can I find my clients??

[buoyant seal]

Actually I heard about my cousin who during university
earned extra money by teaching children programming (or was it math or english?)
Some sort of commercial learning courses.
it could be quite proffitable

But requires some... level of ability to speak with children, capability to teach
and to be in country that allows it being done by people without teacher education

[mortal wedge]

You're welcome, I'm happy to help.

[mortal wedge]

Upwork is popular, that's the main freelance gig site I've heard of. Otherwise any job board that posts contract positions generally are on a pay on delivery schedule

[hearty island]

I haven't heard good things about Upwork. It's bad for people who just start out on the platform. Who would hire a profile with 0 reviews rather than a profile with 10 reviews? This often leads to a very small amount of clients per month. Here's a quote from an Upwork freelancer: "It took me 2 months and 100 proposals to get my first 2 Jobs , in addition to around 30 mins per day just for reading, selecting and submitting proposals for Jobs." Here's some additional facts I didn't find so pleasant about Upwork:
-"Hiring Rate is around 50% ! that means for each 10 Jobs a client opens on Upwork, he/she will be serious in only 5 of them (actually hiring on the platform and creating a contract)
-You compete with 5 to 20 Freelancers from all over the world for each Job
-Average hourly rate on Upwork is around 30 USD/h
-You will have to pay to submit proposals, each Job needs a different amount of credits they call connects (1–6) while 10 connects costs 1.5 USD and you will have to buy them continuously to stay on the platform. I paid around 40$ for connects
-For hourly contracts, you will need to install a desktop app which takes screenshots of what you are doing while working on client projects
-Upwork takes 20% of your earnings from any client
-You can’t work with your client outside Upwork for 2 years from first interaction on Upwork, else you should pay Upwork money — if the client wants to hire you permanently for example. Source: https://blog.usejournal.com/why-i-think-upwork-is-a-huge-waste-of-time-2020-review-7a12f2f01afa

[buoyant seal]

hot. I saw same in turing.com, not sure how it is matching in popularity
I am definitely going to try upwork or some option like that as a next job
My country sucks to pay even remotely similar salaries

[near ocean]

You might wanna expand on that so people here know

[hearty island]

Here's another source about how Upwork isn't that great: https://launchastartup.com/upwork-review/

there's also youtube videos talking about how bad Upwork actually is including: https://youtu.be/zEzlMdFOFoM and https://youtu.be/o1FZ-DXb4Ts

[ashen elk]

with the amount of programmers all over the world, The competetion is to be expected

[hearty island]

doesn't justify how bad Upwork is

[ashen elk]

not about upwork in general, rather freelance. there are plenty of good coders out there

[hearty island]

well I'm not trying to prove all freelancing is bad... I just tried to prove that Upwork is not a good site for freelancing.

[near ocean]

Bruh linking trash youtube channels isnt a valid criticism imho, do you have personal negative experiences with upwork?

[hearty island]

it's not a trash youtube channel... it's an actual account of how bad upwork is "imho"

and I didn't just link youtube channels I gave other sources too

[vapid jay]

hey sup bros! I'm a networking automation engineer (ccnp) trying to learn the devops ways! Can anyone here give me some friendly advice on what stuff can I first look into?

[ashen elk]

as a rule, most YT channels are trash with very few exceptions. agree about upwork being bad tho

[hearty island]

I'm trying to find an actual source of Upwork beyond just a blog... but it seems like they're not relevant enough to get anything written about them

[mortal wedge]

Oh wow, didn't know any of that. Just knew that upwork is where we hired a few of our contractors.

[hearty island]

https://community.upwork.com/t5/Freelancers/Fraud/m-p/708041 + https://community.upwork.com/t5/Freelancers/Scam-and-Fraud-Money-Laundering/m-p/884582

[marsh wind]

yeah our company get some people from upwork too. I am not sure that upwork is plain terrible. I do afraid though that it is not a best option to start career.

[mortal wedge]

You have to have hustle as a freelancer. I didn't freelance for long. I basically did a stellar job for one company and then made the hard sell to take me on full time.

[hearty island]

these are just a few examples from Upwork's community page... it has 1k results with just the search term "fraud"

[near ocean]

Every community where money is involved is bound to have scammers

[mortal wedge]

You would have to compare that to other platforms, though. Because I agree with mariosis.

I've seen both candidates too good to be true and job offers too good to be true. You learn to spot them.

[hearty island]

I feel like I've proven my point

[vapid jay]

Yo

[hearty island]

wot

[peak hedge]

https://github.com/iaryangoyal/Leetcode-360-days-

[plush galleon]

Thank you for sharing this. Their whole model seems broken to me. Their ranking algorithm is broken enough to ask people to avoid it.

[orchid ore]

hello guys , i am new to the world of coding im 16 , i have started this all with python , can you suggest me how do i become a top coder , im ready to do all the hardwork required

[plush galleon]

I think that the 20% cut is justified by the fact that they connect you with potential clients but the delay before being allowed to work for them outside of the platform is ridiculous.
It gets worse according to him: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJsPWApveSo

[hearty island]

ah yeah I saw that vid too

[plush galleon]

I guess I'll keep on looking for contracts elsewhere

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[near ocean]

Not the proper channel for this

[buoyant seal]

Scratch freelancing then
I am lucky to have enough options to work in local companies

Also living in renting houses, exactly for easy relocating reasons. I am open to choose job in any town of my country

Living speaking and interacting looks more healthy for skill growth

[plush galleon]

Thanks for deleting @forest oyster

[plush galleon]

In my country there aren't as many jobs as I wish so in web you can offer your services for free to small companies but in other fields you can only help students to pass their exams.

[plush galleon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARqAJQo24rs
Did you watch this one?

[buoyant seal]

Perhaps there could be given a thought to change country

I wish to visit another country for at least half of a year in order to get better in some fields, which I will never be able to fill in current location

[plush galleon]

I'm only looking for paid contracts to afford a living during my bachelor's and master's

[elfin sinew]

Hey guys, I hope everyone's doing good! I am looking for a tech co-founder for my startup. I have a several app ideas and business model of the startup. If you are a app/web developer please reach out to me so we can talk further, I have a great opportunity for both of us.

[summer roost]

We don't allow advertising job opportunities on this server.

[cobalt shale]

Then what is meant by "career-discussion"...

Just asking to get clarity

[ocean ledge]

discussing your career

a discussion is not an advert

[summer roost]

!rule 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. No spamming or unapproved advertising, including requests for paid work. Open-source projects can be shared with others in #python-general and code reviews can be asked for in a help channel.

[forest oyster]

I want to apply for a job at a crypto/blockchain company but idk how to answer "why do you want to work in the crypto/blockchain industry" type questions aside from wanting to learn more and the hype. What are some good answers?

[summer roost]

You can talk about potential career paths to take, or what to learn to get a job, or how to prepare for interviews, or what employers look for. You can't advertise specific jobs, or try to hire someone, or ask someone to hire you. For moderation reasons, mostly: we can't detect when a job offer might be a scam, and we don't want this to be the sort of place where such scams could happen.

[inner wren]

Rules

7. Keep discussions relevant to channel topics and guidelines.

[summer roost]

The technically interesting pieces of cryptocurrency are 1) the ability to create and manage digital scarcity, and 2) the ability to have actors who don't trust each other agree on a common sequence of events that have occurred.

If those are the pieces that interest you, explain why. If those aren't the pieces that interest you, then what is? Probably just buying into the hype.

[forest oyster]

no I don't care about those. the real reason is because I want to trade crypto assets and want to learn more about it, and also the career prospects in blockchain might be good in the future. I mean it already is now I think, based on what I see

a good reason imo would be if I was interested in the cryptography behind it, but im not. so something along those lines

[vagrant snow]

Hi! Has someone signed an Income Sharing Agreement while he was studing coding? (re-skill or up-skill)

[summer roost]

It sounds like you shouldn't get into that industry, honestly. Blockchain itself, which cryptocurrency is based on, is a useful technology, but only useful in very particular niches.

Cryptocurrency, on the other hand, is entirely speculation and collectable frenzy. If you're not interested in the part that's technically interesting, you're only interested in the part that's speculation. Bitcoin is now what beanie babies were to the 1990s.

[forest oyster]

I think I just need to do more research and find a reason to be interested in it. but the reason I brought up crypto/blockchain is because I want to work with Rust and there are a lot of crypto/blockchain roles looking for Rust developers

[summer roost]

But of course, there's lots of roles looking for Rust developers at companies that aren't selling snake oil, too. 😋

[hearty island]

yep

[vapid jay]

Do you guys think stacksoverflow users are real coders?

[hearty island]

wot

[vapid jay]

https://stackoverflow.com/

[hearty island]

yes I know what Stack Overflow is. What defines a "real coder"?

[plush galleon]

Did it teach you anything new?

[summer roost]

Every coder needs to look things up sometimes. Stack Overflow can be a useful resource when they do.

[hearty island]

not really

[verbal wyvern]

how could i make money with python?

im 13

[calm sail]

Is there anyone here who could give me feedback on if a project I've done is worth putting in a portfolio or not? And possibly give feedback on ways to make the project more presentable or additional things that might make it worth putting into a portfolio?

[little trellis]

What’s the nature of the project?

[little trellis]

I’ll take a look if my experience is relevant at all

[fossil ruin]

Freelance

Talk about what

[verbal wyvern]

can we talk in dms cus there is a 1 minute cooldown

what to do cus i wanna start making cash so i could buy expensive clothing ykykk, my goall for may 18th is to get myself a supreme headband

idk where to start

[little trellis]

lol what

[verbal wyvern]

go lang

[calm sail]

It's just a discord bot that can store peoples names the games they have, then it can be called with any combination of any number of the names and will output the games those people have in common

[little trellis]

Sure, DM me and I'll take a look

[ashen elk]

join competions - big payout if you win

[verbal wyvern]

im not that good at py

im good w it but not better than hundreds of other ppl

[ashen elk]

me neither buddy. but sometimes, you can use creative means to win over the "less-creative" people.

[verbal wyvern]

what comps are u talkminmg abt

[ashen elk]

any competition tbh - from data science to game jams. there are a lot of CS competitions (some of them aren't that competitive too)

[sudden quartz]

IT SUCKS no being top 100 programmers in the world

[mortal wedge]

Programming is just a tool. Some people are better at using this tool than others, but what's more important is what you use the tool for.

[sudden quartz]

computer is a tool, programming is a means of using the computer (writing scripts)

[mortal wedge]

I'm saying that you can program some amazing things without being the world's most proficient or technically apt programmer.

[sudden quartz]

subjective.

[true harness]

that's really not subjective

[little trellis]

lol just a fact

[mortal wedge]

There's a reason why companies want to see your past projects as opposed to just asking your score on hackerrank or whatever

[little trellis]

Most code these days is just gluing together cloud services which isn't too challenging and can produce a lot that wasn't even possible a few years ago.

[sudden quartz]

wouldnt say its amazing if its not new and has been done before, but im going into research side of AI

[near ocean]

If you dont showcase projects just cause "they've been done before" you wont ever find a job

[mortal wedge]

Also, just because something is new and never done before that doesn't necessarily mean that it offers value to a business.

[wintry imp]

hmmm companies hardly ask for your past projects 🥲

[near ocean]

Shove it in their faces if they dont ask

[mortal wedge]

What jobs have you applied to where companies weren't interested in your previous experience?

[wintry imp]

I meant your personal projects ? well Experience is the important bit

[near ocean]

A standard interview question is "what was an interesting project you contributed to and how did you overcome certain difficulties"

If you dont have work experience what else are you gonna use?

[mortal wedge]

You'd probably list work projects unless you don't have any, then personal is what you list.

[sudden quartz]

im on the side of cs furthest away from business and IT

[mortal wedge]

Regardless, even if you're doing research for a university you have to prove value at some point or you won't get funding.

[wintry imp]

from what I've experienced they were not much interested in personal project, mostly on the projects that I've worked in other workplace and experience in some particular framework libraries and programming ;anguage....🥲

[near ocean]

How do you express experience in frameworks/languages without projects, personal or not?
LinkedIn certifications?

[mortal wedge]

One thing to keep in mind as well is that you have the ability to guide the conversation in directions that showcase yourself in the best light.

Ultimately the question the interviewer wants to know is whether or not you're capable of doing the job at hand. Convince them that you are.

[viscid marten]

Has anyone had any luck getting work via the python.org jobs page?

[wintry imp]

well they are gonna test you eventually, but what Im saying is that from what I've experienced they havent looked at my personal project... maybe they were just not interested ...🥲

[mortal wedge]

Was your personal project relevant to the job at hand and did you bring it up in the interview?

[near ocean]

Testing happens once you pass the automated screening, phone screenings, initial interviews and such
Why would a company invest hours and money testing someone who has showed no interest in the tech stack?

[wintry imp]

ye i did somewhat, and they were not much interested. I guess it depends on the place u apply. And ye it was related to the job I applied (was for web application development stuffs)..

[sudden quartz]

if you have job experience already theyd obviously focus on that

[wintry imp]

Your past experiences in other workplace ??

[mortal wedge]

Well, if a company isn't interested in a project you did that is relevant to the job you're being hired for, then it's a missed opportunity.

If I was hiring someone to fix problem X at my company and someone had already solved problem X on their own, I would hire them.

[wintry imp]

doesnt mean that your personal project is not worth to look at ..

UltimateChaos---> ye I guess, seems fair enough. 👍

[sudden quartz]

Yeah that depends on the place you apply. If your personal project was applicable and they only cared about your work project then thats why you got the interview. your previous position . In which case idk why your personal project would even be important if you want the job but shove that thing in their face if its good

[mortal wedge]

That's one mistake I made at the beginning of the job hunting process, letting the interviewer completely guide the discussion. As I gained experience, I learned to guide them towards my strengths even when not asked directly about them.

I highly recommend people take interviewing lessons/classes at career centers or some place that's offering.

[hearty island]

it's hard for me to come up with projects

[calm sail]

I just try and find things that are kind of annoying in my life and build things around that

[wintry imp]

ye i always try to bring my personal projects up lol, even add links in my coverletter and talk about it 😂

also at intern or junior level, the uni u went to and ur gpa also impacted hugely .... (for getting invited to the interview)

[plush galleon]

Like in Automate the Boring Stuff with Python?

[calm sail]

I haven't read it but that sounds about right, if there is something I notice that comes up often enough, like with the bot I made, I noticed a lot of the time with big groups we came together and had to discuss what games we all had and wanted to play and that would take a while, so that's why I built something that could fix it

[sudden quartz]

build things based of the library of your fav language like how spambot makers use faker. (try to go above them and combine to make an applicatoin)

[mortal wedge]

This sort of thing is great to speak to. You noticed a problem, here's what you did to tackle it, here's the result.

[calm sail]

Is there anything in particular anyone would recommend to bridge the learning gap between someone with a python certification who has done like a small project or two and someone who can apply for something like a junior developer position? Also how will I know when that gap has been bridged?

[sudden quartz]

do an internship? are you talking literally just a cert, and no degree?

[wintry imp]

You can be experienced than the most of the junior developer already working in the field that you want to apply... I think it comes down to if u can sell yourself (demonstrate your projects, problem solving skills etc), and convince the interviewer that u can do it.. and you never know unless you start applying for it ??

[sudden quartz]

idk why self learners go python. thats what like all the stem majors and engineers use because its easy. I would learn Rust

[summer roost]

I agree with sexypistol - the best way to know if you have the skills is to apply to the jobs and see if you get hired.

[sudden quartz]

lmfao if it doesnt impede your daily life and youre not documented with it dont say you have it

[summer roost]

I mean I don't really
Then for the love of God don't say you do.

[viral egret]

haha ok thanks 🙏🏼 some of this equal employment stuff really b getting to my head 😂

[calm sail]

Well that sounds intimidating, but yeah I guess I might as well start throwing myself out there while I work on more and more projects
also I went python because a python cert program was the one my job paid for, not sure why

[sudden quartz]

oh ypure super valid then, you have a job too. i thought you were a self learning getting into the field

[calm sail]

Oh, no, my job is at Sam's Club (wal mart costco) they just offer educational opportunities they cover so I figured I'd take it and I ended up really liking coding

[sudden quartz]

see if you can get a developer job with them. id personally learn another language. that would show you actually know how to program. make it OOP, possibly a newer language like Rust. but ive never been in the situation

[summer roost]

If you intend to try to get a job without a CS degree, here's a few suggestions about how to have the best success:

• On top of the cert, do a bootcamp.
• Consider supplementing it with a college course or two - a Data Structures and Algorithms course will get you far.
• Go broad, instead of deep - learn lots of different things pretty well. More languages, a framework or two, some useful libraries like pytest and mypy
• Some Unix knowledge and knowledge of git would both be immensely helpful.

[lucid vapor]

I'm a ninth grader taking some CS classes in high school, but I want to be on track for college. What are some good things to do to prepare yourself for the college level stuff, and what a college would want?

[sudden quartz]

youre already ahead of the game. do a lot of work with data structures and algorithms and you could be interning at Google freshman year

So go assert dominance on Leetcode or whater

[summer roost]

I personally wouldn't bother teaching yourself anything that the college is going to teach you anyway - it'll just make the college classes a waste of money. I'd give the same advice as above - build a broad base, instead of drilling deep on anything in particular.

[sudden quartz]

actually youre gonna want to learn everything ahead of time so you can get A's... never heard of a honors cs student who came in blind

[summer roost]

I was one.

[wintry imp]

and flexxx😂

[sudden quartz]

you mustve went to a good school then

[summer roost]

I had never taken a coding class before college, graduated Magna Cum Laude from my university's Honors College with a BS CS with a 3.9-ish in-major GPA, 3.7-something overall, at one of the best engineering schools in my state.

[lucid vapor]

Thanks for the advice! I'll try learning other stuff to know a little bit of everything, instead of making it too targeted.

[viral egret]

i plus this... learn broad—not what's in your classes. All good programmers I know learned in their own free time for their own stuff they wanted to do.

[sudden quartz]

good school, at a less good school, the classes are more heartless. for example what was your first year like

[summer roost]

What do you mean by "what was it like"? 18-21 credits per term, CS classes covered HTML, JS, simple procedural programming and OOP up through polymorphism in C++

[sudden quartz]

my first semester, 1 single course in Java introduction. then data structures and algorithms and discrete/cs foundations next semester

and 15-18 credits is the norm

so at my school youre slammed with ds&algs after just being in a single intro java course, and its hard

[summer roost]

I ended my first year with a full time 3 month internship at a university research lab, and I went to a school with a co-op program, so during my second year I had a 6 month full time internship for the same university research lab slash startup incubator, in my third year I interned at a major chemical company, in my fourth year at a local company that makes some interesting hardware. I graduated after 5 years with the above mentioned honors, turned down a job at the hardware company, and eventually landed a job at a big FinTech firm.

[sudden quartz]

for compsci it doesnt matter where you go to school, but in compsci case you actually do get a better education and bs opportunities like that at better schools, can i know the state area ? like east or w/e

[summer roost]

East cost - the school was Drexel.

[buoyant seal]

I would recommend participation in open source projecta perhaps.

They make imitation for free of a real project. And can teach you about quality of workflow even greater than you can encounter at your first job.

During contributing, you could literally reach what junior dev should do.

At least I learned so.

The only important thing, to find open source project with sufficiently high code standarts

[calm sail]

Is there a particular place I can find good projects for this? Or just kinda google around and feel things out?

[buoyant seal]

I have few things to point, but too long to write from smartphone. Later could give links. At my evening.
With examples how to identify good ones

[calm sail]

Alright, if it makes it easier you can pm me at any time, dunno whatever is easier for you, but would appreciate greatly, thanks

[forest oyster]

I have 24 hours to a 90 min 3 question coding test on hackerrank but I still can't solve medium problems on leetcode/hackerrank well. What would be the best way to spend my time to prepare for it

[true harness]

there's not really a lot you can do with such little time, but you can try to guess what the problems will be on and try to cram those topics.

on top of that, definitely practice more of those types of questions, maybe even with time pressure to simulate more accurately

[forest oyster]

Thanks. Also out of curiosity what difficulty level questions (in terms of leetcode/hackerrank) do FAANG companies ask? Are they all hard, medium, or mixture of both? If a mixture, are they mostly hard or medium. I'm actually a senior dev in terms of experience but I feel lacking in CS101 fundamentals because I never took comp sci (stats/actuarial science major here). At my first software role I was tested on Java syntax etc, which I didn't do well on because I didn't know any Java. It was unexpected that I even got the offer but I guess my ex-boss liked me. Anyway, now I feel like I'm playing catch up, and I want to stop feeling like a junior dev. I always have this feeling that I'm not good enough and the new devs are better just because they have a CS degree.

[summer roost]

at the senior dev level, interview questions stop being DS&A and whiteboard coding, and start being conversations about what you've written in the past, and how you would build some hypothetical system, and your approach to solving bigger picture problems

[mortal wedge]

The ones I answered for Amazon were just medium

[hearty island]

It seems like companies generally seem to use medium questions

[mortal wedge]

They're really just meant as a basic screening to make sure you have the knowledge. Too easy and they've proven nothing, too hard and they're potentially rejecting good candidates where DSA wasn't their strongest point. Medium is a good balance..

[summer roost]

re: weakness in CS fundamentals, you can always learn them on your own. Nothing stops you from enrolling in an online DS&A course or something.

[mortal wedge]

That's what I did. I just buckled down and took a course. Helped me immensely.

[summer roost]

the data structures part of DS&A came pretty naturally to me, the algorithms part not so much. It took me a while to really wrap my head around complexity analysis. It's reasonable to keep working at it until you get it.

[forest oyster]

Which do you recommend? I have one in mind which is the MIT OCW one

[mortal wedge]

Other way around for me 🙂

[summer roost]

In general, the practical parts of CS always came easier to me than the theory parts. I'm better at coding than math 😄

[mortal wedge]

It costs money, but I took the one offered by UCSD on Coursera. https://www.coursera.org/specializations/data-structures-algorithms

[hearty island]

Doesn’t seem to have algorithms

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, not sure if it does.

Just checked and the first one does support python while being language agnostic. I'll remove the link to the second one since we're talking about DS&A and not just DS.

It probably over-prepared me, but I was glad to take any advantage I could get.

[hearty island]

I would put the udacity one but it’s not python 3 😦

[mortal wedge]

rip

[summer roost]

at the level of a DS&A course, you'd barely notice the difference between Python 2 and 3. The only difference that's likely to affect you at all is that / will do floor division instead of true division by default for integers.

and print() would only do what you're used to from Python 3 if you use a single argument, not multiple arguments.
But you could fix both of those things with from __future__ import division and from __future__ import print_function respectively.

actually, scratch that, reverse it - I said that as though you'd write your code in Python 2 while working on those algorithms, but of course you won't, you'll write Python 3. So the difference is that in some places you'll see print foo, bar and need to write print(foo, bar) instead, and in some places you'll see foo / bar being used for floor division, and you'll need to do foo // bar instead.

And if you ever see py print foo, you replace it with ```py
print(foo, end=" ")

[vapid jay]

I think coding was invented with some kind of racist intentions behind it

[summer roost]

what does that have to do with the channel topic?

[forest oyster]

In my country white and asians are generally paid substantially more than others. And especially if u have a foreign degree, even if u might not be as good. It's perceived comptetence. I won't say where

Added bonus if u have an American/British accent

[bronze pivot]

Sounds like america

[forest oyster]

Or Earth 😂

[forest oyster]

Any tips for big O stuff? It's still not intuitive to me. When you say wrap your head around it does it mean it becomes intuitive to you to see what time/space complexity a particular algorithm is? Anything in particular that made everything click?

[summer roost]

I had 3 classes try to teach it to me before it really clicked for me. I'm probably not the best person to give advice on how to intuit it, heh. But in lieu of intuition, you get pretty far by just memorizing the runtimes of operations on common data structures. https://www.bigocheatsheet.com/ can get you pretty far.

And it's important to know that a lower complexity doesn't mean faster. Complexity analysis only tells you how the performance of some algorithm scales as the data set it works on grows to infinity. Most data sets are small, and for small data sets it's common for a O(n) algorithm to be able to beat a O(1) one.

[summer roost]

#algos-and-data-structs is the better place to chat about this, though. The one career related note is that when people in the industry talk about big O, they almost certainly mean big theta, actually. No one says big theta, everyone means it.

[calm inlet]

B. Sc. Computer Science or B. Eng. Computer Engineering / Software Engineering

Actually my real question is Computer Eng or Software Eng

[forest oyster]

just got destroyed in an online hackerrank test 😂

3 questions. 1st one was so ez I completed in 5 minutes, then the next two I had no idea what to do. passed < 50% of the test cases with most of them exceeding the time limit

[plush galleon]

Can you give the link?

[vast shoal]

Programming is like that, most problems have many different possible solutions, and it's very easy to come up with a solution for some problems that work, but are prohibitively slow for any practical application.

[plush galleon]

I'd say it's Omega actually since your function is bounded below by g(n)

[frozen fulcrum]

اقا ایرانی داریم اینجا

[summer roost]

Nah, I meant big theta. #algos-and-data-structs message

[plush galleon]

You forgot the word "asymptotically"

[reef zephyr]

At least for yourself. Just go for it. You wouldn’t miss something. @vapid jay

[crude folio]

Hi all I could do with some help. I have £2000 to spend on self development as a software dev but I'm having trouble finding any courses/training that are highly sought after?

Any recommendations? (FYI I'm a Python dev in an AI-ish role)

[manic hemlock]

i like your name XD

[vagrant snow]

Did you think about Income Sharing Agreement? ...to fund your upskilling in a top UK coding bootcamp...

[red charm]

i mean the earliest you start the better as long as you don't burn yourself out or make yourself unhappy

pretty much a common sense answer, go with your gut tbh

if you want though you won't be ridiculously behind if you start later in life

[civic cairn]

Depends

[mortal wedge]

What interests you more? The physical/hardware of computers or the design/implementation/development/testing/maintenance of software?

[mortal wedge]

You'll get better with practice/learning! For most algorithmic questions, there's a naive solution that with enough time given anyone can do, then there are solutions that require a more sophisticated algorithmic approach that are hard to solve if you haven't learned about it.

[mortal wedge]

For paid courses of high quality, I'd recommend Coursera. I wouldn't have gotten a good job without it. Not only did it help me be fully prepared for every DSA question that was thrown at me, it gave me a deep understanding in whatever topics I wanted to explore.

I want to say that a high schooler made the covid tracking software that everyone uses and he got offered 6 million dollars (or 3 million?) to put ads up on his site. He also got plenty of full time offers for once he graduated high school. So is quite beneficial to start early.

[hearty island]

Sent it to you

[shadow moss]

Whatever path you are more likely to graduate on. It won’t matter, most HR people will see them as the same.

[mortal wedge]

😄 True. Tbh, I think HR just looks for STEM. Which is silly because my engineering degree's official courses in no way prepared me for the coding aspect of the roles I was applying for.

[weak bloom]

I've been trying to break into the development industry for a while now with little success. I've got an AS in CS, and work towards a bachelors (it's complicated). I even have a few projects under my belt. Any suggestions?

[mortal wedge]

If you're still in school, that's actually a boon. You can go for internships and/or jobs that hire new devs right after graduation.

Otherwise, without more details, I'd give the standard advice. There are three aspects to getting a career. 1) Getting an interview 2) Acing the interview and 3) Keeping your job. They all require different skills that don't necessarily overlap.

But they're all skills that can be learned, so I would look at those things and try to develop yourself further in whichever category needs the most work.

[buoyant seal]

it depends on which is your way of education
I prefer just buying books.
To read in a free time, to relax from computer.
O'reilly or something

[mortal wedge]

People learn in different ways. I always learned by doing, but everyone is different.

[buoyant seal]

I mostly learn by doing as well
But books give nice... depth/width to my knowledge
There are a lot of things I miss by rushed doing ;b

[weak bloom]

I'm not, unfortunately. Or at least, it's complicated. I was in the military, and had complicating life events. I'm 30 now, and chances are I won't finish the bachelors, at least any time soon

[mortal wedge]

Gotcha

It sounds then like the biggest hurdle for you will be getting the interview. I was similarly in a suboptimal life situation and I went to career centers and attended classes in order to help me get those interviews. (In addition to polishing up my resume with the help of a recruiter friend.)

[weak bloom]

The biggest issue has been getting an interview. I've been less 'on it' this year, but I've sent in hundreds of apps without even getting an email back. It's frustrating :/ On the flipside, my roommate (he's a python dev) made me aware of hackernews, so that's helped.

I'll take a look at career centers. Gonna be tricky what with covid and all, but it sure couldn't hurt!

[hardy silo]

man, i hate how annoying long swe interviews are

you pass 1 or 2 or 3 interviews and then they still hit you with 'thanks you passed! our next interview is a 2 hour long xyz when are you available?'

like bruh im still working at my current job and trying to find a new place, i have like 5 companies all wanting these huge time sinks PLS NO

[mortal wedge]

YEah, job seeking has really taken a hit/sucked during covid, so I feel you

[mortal wedge]

Ugh, my last place I interviewed with had 7 hours of interviews last all day. At least it was all scheduled in one day though. Bigger companies like to do interviews like that, not sure why.

[plush galleon]

Haven't you got a degree?

[hardy silo]

Christ man. Thats so much. My current job is going to hate me like i'm taking time off left and right currently. I don't want to just quit tho heck

[mortal wedge]

I have a degree in Biomedical engineering, not CS

[hardy silo]

Degrees are cool but not needed. If you learn it all you can get the same job. I have no degree and the companies im interviewing with are all big tech (not fang i aint a rockstar)

[weak bloom]

IMO it's because they put the wrong people in charge of new hire vetting, and think that having more of the wrong people asking interview questions will do a better job vetting new hires. Companies wanna cut costs by not pulling devs from work, but also don't want to keep a dev in HR to handle vetting hires

[mortal wedge]

It's fair. I have a hand in the hiring process but it's not my main responsibility and I hate it

[forest oyster]

this role im interviewing for has 4 technical stages lol

[hardy silo]

like whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

its fine if you are unemployed but this is horrible while having a job.

[weak bloom]

As a unemployed/self employed person, I disagree. That kinda stuff is DRAINING

[hardy silo]

Fair enough. At least you technically have the time to do it though. At this rate my current job will just fire me or at least yell at me to stop taking time off

[mortal wedge]

Kind of fair, it's horrible regardless

[mortal wedge]

I would sometimes schedule it during lunch breaks or if it's just a phone screening during my commutes, but it's hard to recommend either.

[hardy silo]

The quick phone calls sure I do that too. Head out and sit in my car to discuss. Things like this though require taking a half day off at lunch to go and interview for 2 hours. Seems the only <30 min ones are the initial phone call with their recruiter team

[mortal wedge]

The only silver lining is that once you get the job it doesn't matter how much time you took off 🙂

But yeah, looking for a job is practicall a full time job in and of itself.

Only thing I can tell you though is that you're a LOT more marketable if you have a job than if you're unemployed

[hardy silo]

😆

[weak bloom]

It's true and I hate it.

[ashen elk]

buy "A thousand brains theory" book by jeff hawkins, if you are into building AGI/AI. done in 20 euros.

[ocean ledge]

buy yourself some nice dinners at an upscale place and some new clothes-- all devs can upskill themselves for free

[little trellis]

I assume it’s a company budget that can be used for these purposes

[forest oyster]

is it better to work at a software consultancy and get exposure to different types of projects or specialize in a particular field/industry, such as cryptos/blockchain

[little trellis]

Get general experience first then once you know what you like consider specializing. You don’t want to be stuck in a situation where you go all in on blockchain for example and then that disappears and you have nothing to fall back on

[forest oyster]

will blockchain disappear tho. or get replaced

[little trellis]

Who knows, that was just an example. A lot of people view it as a fad technology right now so it’s definitely possible it loses a lot of steam as time goes on but also the opposite could happen. There will always be areas of technology moving in and out of the spotlight

I doubt it will ever disappear for a long time but the demand and therefor open positions could shift dramatically over time

[sudden quartz]

specialization is always better if youre prepared. blockchain isnt going anywhere anytime soon

[mortal wedge]

One thing to keep in mind is that if you specialize in a field and then try to switch to a different field, it may be harder because someone will look at your resume and go "Oh, they're a insert specialty person and not a thing that we need person."

By that same token, if you have experience in thing that's needed you'll be hired over a generalist

[shadow moss]

specialization always comes with risk that whatever you specialize in isn't as popular anymore, ask Ruby Dev how life is going

[mortal wedge]

Ruby is still a decent language in a vacuum, but it's also important to note about the community and ecosystem. Otherwise, I agree.

[shadow moss]

in fact, most "popular" things are stuff that isn't hot in consumer space. Generally B2B specialization is more solid. Like SpringBoot specialist probably has more steady work then blockchain specialist just because companies move slowly

[summer roost]

On the one hand, blockchain itself isn't going anywhere. It's a cool technology that solves a technical problem that we previously lacked good solutions to. On the other hand, people are applying it in places that make no sense, because it's a fad buzzword.

[mortal wedge]

Even if a company is moving from X tech to Y tech, they'll be hiring X devs for the transition.
Generally people who know both X and Y

[hardy silo]

I mean you don't have to say that all you do is code ruby. Take a few months to learn X language, and have your resume just say swe without mentioning only specific language ruby

[mortal wedge]

Unfortunately, if I'm looking for a Python developer, I'm not going to see any resume without the word "Python" in it. I care about languages and tools someone has used.

[hardy silo]

cool, they can put the word python in it

[sudden quartz]

like people trying data science on 'small data'

[shadow moss]

I wasn't throwing specific shade at Ruby, just stuff that looks really hot today may be old news tomorrow. No one knows the future, most reliable stuff to specialize in is also more boring stuff generally. Springboot vs BlockChain, MSSQL vs MongoDB

[summer roost]

Yes, exactly like that. NoSQL databases are useful, too - people just apply them in places where they don't actually have big data, because they're a fad.

[hardy silo]

its almost like you dont know what languages they used on the job for the last 5 years chaos. all the person has to do is take a few months to learn python, then add python to their skill list. 'we used the right language for the project we were currently doing, it changed all the time'

[mortal wedge]

That's pretty much what I did 😄

[sudden quartz]

inb4 corporate upskilling

[hardy silo]

have another resume that calls yourself what you were, Python SWE, rather than just SWE, to use when applying to python only jobs haha

[mortal wedge]

I recommend people always tailor their resume to the job posting they care about.

At the very least have different templates/things for different categories you're applying to

[summer roost]

Companies will toss your resume out if it doesn't mention relevant experience. If they're looking for a Python web developer, and they have a choice between a Python developer who hasn't done web stuff or a web developer who hasn't done Python stuff, they're more likely to hire the Python developer who hasn't done web stuff. It's easier to learn libraries and frameworks than languages and their ecosystems and idioms, all things being equal.

[mortal wedge]

Tailoring your resume to the position is how you get past the applicant tracking system and have your resume land in front of a person. It may not go anywhere from there, but you get past the first hurdle.

[hardy silo]

Cool, so take a few weeks to learn and spin up a few backends in python, then put down python/flask/django on your resume.

[mortal wedge]

I don't think anyone disagrees with learning new skills to make you more attractive to employers
Some people list their languages and levels of proficiencies with each language

[hardy silo]

You dont have to have coded purely python for the last 20 years. They won't know. They just see python exp on your resume. Nobody puts down Python(2 years) Javascript(20 years) C#(5 years)

[forest oyster]

5 years of doing leetcode in python

[summer roost]

They'll weigh experience from previous jobs more highly than a skills list. If a web dev who's never professionally worked in Python lists Python as a skill, and a Python dev who's never professionally worked in web dev lists Django as a skill, they're still more likely to pick the professional Python dev than the professional web dev.

[mortal wedge]

There's a balance between putting stuff you're proficient at on your resume versus just putting everything under the sun that you've ever touched on your skills list.

[hardy silo]

I feel like geek is the guy who never fluffed a resume once for any reason whatsoever

[forest oyster]

i wrote hello world in Go and I put it on my resume just so it looks good, and im not applying to Go positions anyway, so I think it's fine. nobody has asked about it so far

[mortal wedge]

I think it's okay to embellish a resume unless you are fundamentally misrepresenting yourself or can't do the job at hand because that falls back on the person who hired you, too.

[summer roost]

There's no point lying on a resume - that just leads to bad outcomes for everyone involved. You get stuck with a job that you don't have the background to do well, and the company gets an employee that can't do the job well. No one wins.

[hardy silo]

Right, you have to be able to back it up. A normal swe can take a few weeks though and be very proficient in spinning up flask/django. You can easily do the job after that

[little trellis]

You sir are playing with fire lol

[sudden quartz]

just put every language on a resume

[mortal wedge]

Even verbal/written languages like latin and spanish

[hardy silo]

its good, they need to know you can help out the clients needing technical info overseas

[summer roost]

The skill level of someone who has been playing with Django in their free time for a month and the skill level of someone who had been using it professionally for a year are drastically different. That's not to say you shouldn't self teach things, of course you should. Just that there's no substitute for actual industry experience with some tool.

[sudden quartz]

when fluency doesnt mean native proficiency knows all world langs

[hardy silo]

Enjoy having your resumes thrown out as I guess

[summer roost]

I'm quite successful, but thanks for your concern. 😉

[mortal wedge]

A good hiring manager will ask you questions to suss out gaps/missing info in your resume

For context I've been on both sides of the coin recently. I was unemployed for a good long while and I accelerated rapidly in my company so have a hand in hiring decisions now

[hardy silo]

Exactly

[sudden quartz]

just dont throw buzzwords out like distributed computing which you dont know what it is

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, if you have something on your resume listed and can't speak to it, I don't know what else you're lying about so you're gone.

[hardy silo]

I can't imagine being so scared of hiring managers you won't put down python/flask/django after spending a month learning it coming from language X. Just put it down, apply for the python job, you'll get the interview rather than it being thrown out. Let the manager sus out what he wants.

[near ocean]

learning python in a month is one thing, learning flask/django in a month while already being comfortable with python is another
i would definitely not list python if i was only a month in

[hardy silo]

if you know another language python is ez to learn. if you learned python as your starting language sure dont do that

[mortal wedge]

Not everyone learns as rapidly as you do.

[hardy silo]

I mean its really not hard to be able to throw down a basic api in flask if you are coming from other languages. But fair enough

[summer roost]

Yeah, that was... Pretty much exactly my point (made better than I was making it). It's much easier to pick up libraries and frameworks than languages, and that speaks to the transferability of skills. You're more likely to get pigeonholed into jobs based on what languages you know than what libraries you know.

The programming version of typecasting, I guess. It's difficult to get considered for roles that are in different languages than the ones that you've built up your professional history in. This isn't necessarily advice about how to handle your first job, it's about what life looks like 10 or 20 years down the line.

If I were to take a job as a full stack web developer, I'm betting that would come at more than a 50% pay cut, given that most of the skills and expertise that make me so valuable in my current position would be worthless (or at least worth less) to my new employer.

[mortal wedge]

Would you stay at a company that is paying less but is giving you valuable experience? Not "you" as anyone specifically.

My current company owes me a raise/bonus, but it's very low stress, in a field that interests me, and I'm getting both project management experience and getting to work with the biggest names /experts in their field.

[shadow moss]

Up to you, view your current job like any business venture, if overall it’s working well, then stay, if not, leave

[mortal wedge]

I'll probably wind up staying for a while. I just wonder sometimes if I'm staying because my last job was so bad, if I'm staying because the experience is valuable, or if I'm staying because I enjoy the work.

Probably some combination of the three.

[marsh wind]

or worse, they apply it where they have well structured relational data cause they think it's better for some niche part of the app.

[marsh wind]

do you have a very niche skills/expertise? or it's just something very far from full stack web dev?

[plush galleon]

They still can work with RPG Maker

[ocean ledge]

i would argue that full stack web development is also niche

[summer roost]

A little of column A, a little of column B. I'm a backend Unix developer who has written fewer than 1000 lines of Javascript over my entire professional career, and less HTML than that. A lot of my expertise is at the systems level, and a bit at the network level. My professional experience has largely been in C++, and today a large portion of my job is building Python extensions that bind to existing C++ libraries and frameworks, in order to make them accessible to Python developers. Several of my past jobs have involved multi-year projects to move large, poorly tested C++ code bases from big endian Unix platforms to little endian Unix.

And I have built reasonably large distributed systems in the past, and done a fair amount of optimization of RPC services to minimize response time and latency while querying data sets with billions of data points

[calm inlet]

Yeah I know for software it's all the same, but let's say it's a job for a hardware company such as intel, wouldn't Computer Engineering be better suited than software engineering

I don't see why software engineering is a thing since computer engineer is basically software engineer + electrical engineering applied to computers

[shadow moss]

Sure but that’s niche field of processor design. My advice was general.

[marsh wind]

how so?

I mean, everyting is a "niche" in a way 🙂 But there is a small niche with smaller demand in terms of jobs, and, well large ones, and web dev is defo the latter. Although the competition to enter can be greated but probably if you have 2+ yrs of industry XP you're not gonna have big trouble fingind a job

[mortal wedge]

Full stack engineers are pretty popular, not sure where they're getting that assessment from. Why wouldn't you want one person to do the work of like 2-3 people?

[crude crown]

What, already? Nice one man

[night pasture]

how accurate is the quote "Coding isn't the goal. Its is the gateway."?

[digital fjord]

in practice, yes. You don't code to have code written, you code to get something done. But programming alone is pretty fun

[thick leaf]

Yeh that is going to be my issue i believe, as i want to join the IT industry and i only know some css coding, very basic html and i'm starting to learn Python for jobs that are around where i live. If you happen to have any suggestions, i'd love to hear if you have any ideas of what potential things i could practise or produce to put in a portfolio and also to get more experience in Python itself. I want to move into web development hopefully

[ashen elk]

It refers to people being "programmers" - trying to solve real world problems with coding only. It is a narrow-minded approach that is basically a superiority complex among some people (you'd be surprised to know how many there are) that think they can solve every problem with the skills they have. <insert IBM Call For Code advert here>

you should use programming only as a tool in your toolkit - specialization is great ofc, but when you actually try to make an impact, you would find yourself learning new skills. the most valued employees are the ones that like to just learn new things, be it cooking, or managing people, learning a new spoken language, or even tying a tie.

so simply put, programming is just a means - not an end in itself. you can create a lot of things with computers only, but there are some things that would require you to step out of your comfort zone to understand them. but you would always be a better person for doing so.

[thick leaf]

i can certainly agree with this, I know my learning of Mandarin Chinese as well as the cultures of different parts of Asia and my ancient history knowledge isn't definitve. but they allow me insights on how to approach things differently. Bringing this back to coding, css and html while i'm not great with them i have ideas of how to create something because i took the time to learn them and use their functions to create and experiment with them. they are handy tools and experiences that help me later in life with issues i come across. however i certainly knowthe more i learn the better i can become at solving issues

[ashen elk]

agreed. a lot of things that you really thought wouldn't be useful in your domain - you'd be suprised how often what you learnt is actually transferable. The people who like to diss on some subjects are just idiots.

[thick leaf]

exactly! My actions today have caused me to be unable to follow my want for teaching history to kids in schools, however if i did really well in the IT field i would love to put myself forward as an IT teacher, because it's something i have always thought i would enjoy.

[viscid marten]

At what point do you guys think a interviewer is just going to use you as a free source to code for a single problem then ghost you, or does that happen often? This is my first task before an interview, and it seems pretty big for a normal aptitude if that makes any sense.

[crude crown]

If we're talking about decent companies with a decent enough reputation it's unlikely that would happen. If you find yourself dealing with a sort of a sketchy company and sketchy people... yeah that might be possible honestly.

how big is that task? If it's something that you feel would take more than say... 8 hours of focused work that's a bit too much IMO

[frozen spear]

is it normal for people interviewing for devops positions to have a five hour live coding interview? this seems extremely excessive to me but I haven't interviewed in five years

[charred spire]

doesn't sound normal to me

[hearty island]

five hour?

[charred spire]

i interview devops people and we don't ask for any coding examples at the time, we'll ask how would they do X

[thick leaf]

If i was being interviewed for a position, considering i'll only just be starting out this year i would only apply for junior positions unless i see something that screams great opportunity, i'd bring a good portfolio of my work, be happy to answer the usual, we have this example problem how would you do it. But when people start saying, we have a more than half an hour or hour thing extra to do then i'm wondering. why? i mean if you pay me for the time happily but if not then im really suspicious

[charred spire]

if someone asked me to do an 8 hour coding sample, i would think they are asking me to solve an issue they were unable to fix themselves

[viscid marten]

It's probably a 2-3 hour coding thing. So from what I'm getting it isn't too suspicus. This is my first step into a coding test so just being sure. The data seems like real world, and matches exectly with what they will have me doing.

[thick leaf]

yeh i would probably ask around though to be sure

[crude crown]

doesn't seem particularly suspicious to me

[summer roost]

If it's a company you've heard of before that has actual employees, the chances that they're trying to ship code that you write for an interview to production are approximately zero. It's Much more likely they're giving you a problem they've already solved and found interesting

[crude crown]

2-3 hours is a reasonable amount of time (for today's standards)

[viscid marten]

It's not a huge company that I've heard of but they operate in a niche market they have 4 employees, and the problem isn't really intresting it's just converting xml to json.

[crude crown]

I'm not reading any red flags here, I would go ahead with that exercise if you feel the company is worth it.

[viscid marten]

I was going to do it regardless worse come to worse it can go in work projects folder.

[summer roost]

Is that five hours of live coding, or a five hour interview that includes live coding?

[viscid marten]

Really just curious if stealing code is common place I've heard a few things, but just a few things.

[crude crown]

Not saying it won't happen or that the interviewers won't be inspired in some way if they come upon particularly impressive code but I'd say it's basically impossible that someone would just take the code and ship it to production

[summer roost]

Exceedingly uncommon, as far as I know. It would be a very difficult way to run a company. It would be much harder than just hiring freelancers, and companies aren't usually that desperate to save a hundred bucks or so.

[crude crown]

And if someone happens to think and actually shipping it to production in some way... they honestly deserve to go bankrupt.

[summer roost]

And if they have anyone who can judge whether the solution you deliver is an adequate solution to their problem or not, that person was probably also good enough to write it themselves.

[viscid marten]

Thanks guys like I said this is my first actual move towards anything. I really appreciate it. Maybe I was trying to find an excuse not to do it because I'm nervous of failing, but I really appreciate you guys not letting me rationalize not trying. 🙂

[charred spire]

you won't fail - it's great experience for you

[summer roost]

Fine!

[wild crown]

i would like to go to a college/univ where i don't have to learn about other minor subjects and just focus on programming as the main focus. is there any such college/univ?

[leaden jasper]

Sooooooooo, I would recommend you don't just focus on programming classes. Although the other subjects can seem not immediately useful, but they prepare you in ways you may not realize. Learning how to write and communicate as a programmer is extremely valuable. Knowing about other domains and subjects to see where you might apply programming is also very useful. Even in game dev, if you ever want to deal with a physics engine you'll need to know Physics.

[wild crown]

hmm, fair point. But i would like them to be as minimal as possible so that i can actually focus on the real one that im going to use.

what i meant by minor ones is like civics, english , social studies, chemistry, or biology. not physics or maths

[leaden jasper]

Well, I find it difficult to predict which one you'll use. The accidental strategy that ended up working for me was that I took a lot of AP classes and did very well on the exams and ended up getting credit at my university for a lot of general education classes. I could then take the ones I wanted that weren't directly related to my major but were still engaging.

Like english and writing? Incredibly useful, even if it's a bit of a drag. Chemistry and biology? Fields that are currently getting a lot of investment for modeling and simulation (and have for awhile)

[summer roost]

For the average software engineer, I think English classes are more valuable than many of the computer science classes. A huge part of your day will be expressing yourself through text, either writing documentation, or explaining your code through commit messages and comments, or arguing for or against particular designs. Computer science classes teach a lot of mathematical theory behind computing that isn't very useful for a typical developer, on a day to day basis.

[dry sapphire]

being able to communicate cogently is extremely important, especially if you are at least semi-client facing

[wild crown]

ah

[leaden jasper]

Even in terms of employability, someone who can communicate well and is pleasant to talk to? I will probably favor them over a theoretically "better" programmer who is difficult to talk to or can't really explain their own code well

[elder isle]

Being good at writing technical documents is an extremely useful and often under-valued skill.

[wild crown]

how about chemistry and biology, civics?

[lucid vapor]

Even if you're not client facing, you need to be able to write stuff for the people you work with. People need to understand you, and code might not always do that.

[elder isle]

Those courses impart generally useful information for life.

[leaden jasper]

I'm a bit biased but I think they're still useful to take. It's a basic gen-ed class generally and will help you if you work on projects that require even basic knowledge of it. You rarely program for programming's sake. You program to create something, solve a problem, etc. I'm not sure what civics is in this case. I know in university I pretty much had no history or civics class. Ethics and the like was baked into our core classes and tailored for our major.

[wild crown]

whew, im worried that i might not have been able to master what im supposed to actually master if i invest my time in others, but your points are all valid too. Im just so confused at the moment

[summer roost]

there are lots of software jobs in - well, all of those areas. I know biochem engineers who are coders, and I know data scientists who are chemists.

But setting that aside - it's not possible to just learn coding, anyway. It builds upon itself too much. There are too many classes that have prerequisites - if half of the classes in a 4 year CS degree are about programming and half aren't, that doesn't imply that you could skip the ones that aren't and finish in half the time - there are still things that you need to learn back to back instead of in parallel. And so you may as well make use of that time by learning other skills that may prove to be useful, and that will certainly not make you less employable.

[leaden jasper]

I wouldn't worry too much about not feeling like you'll master what you're supposed to. Well structured programs will give you the knowledge you need in the 3 or 4 years at college or you can find outside resources to do so (bootcamps, internships, summer classes, etc). Don't stress about trying to optimize your path too much.

The best thing you can look for in a school, in terms of future employability, is one that gives you access to internships or co-ops or industry connections. That will get you so much further than trying to optimize your classes to be just programming focused.

[wild crown]

ahi see, damn you are all giving me too good advices. i don't feel that im worthy of it

[lucid vapor]

Think about it this way. If you're this concerned, it's obvious that you'll do your best to master what you need to. So what you need to put your effort in is the other stuff that you might not like as much. Widen the scope of your learning.

[leaden jasper]

we're here to help as much as we can~ Career and college advice can be tricky since it can be region and person dependent. But hopefully it helps.

[summer roost]

+1000% on the value of internships and co-ops.

[forest oyster]

what are some industries with very good potential for the future?

[summer seal]

Big Data

[dry sapphire]

that’s good, but this channel is not for recruitment.

[vapid jay]

Man the unpingahlw that was harsh haha

[peak halo]

@mint thicket remember that recruitment for paid opportunities is not allowed anywhere in this server.

[orchid ivy]

healthcare, education, and financial services are some of the main ones. but basically all industries are affected, especially because of the effects of the pandemic. pick an industry you're genuinely interested in, rather than only focusing on the money.

[mortal wedge]

Thanks! Yeah, it's exciting. I'm really giving this job my all and taking on more responsibilities and my company is responding in kind 🙂

[crude crown]

Noice, that's great to hear. I just started my new job this week as well 😄

[mortal wedge]

That's awesome, how exciting! Hope it's a good fit for you.

[forest oyster]

Will wasm replace typescript?

[ocean ledge]

biggest data

[ocean ledge]

? what? its not a language

but to answer you question, yes everyone should program the web with idris instead

[vapid jay]

hey guys i want to start paython someone help me

[hearty island]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[vapid jay]

ok thanks

[lucid vapor]

Lol no. They both serve different purposes. TypeScript isn't always used for web dev, plus, different devs like different languages.

[sudden quartz]

eh le tech industry mabye

[orchid ivy]

to answer your question, absolutely. money isn't everything. you can use your experience as leverage to move elsewhere if/when another opportunity arises.

[forest oyster]

b-b-b-bruh

is banking where the money's at?

[summer roost]

FinTech pays well, yeah

[hearty island]

I did a fintech internship for a startup... it was terrible, but my experience doesn't speak for everyone.

[summer roost]

Startups are disproportionately likely to be terrible, considering that they're frequently run by people who have no significant experience in leading teams or setting direction. Not that there aren't also plenty of terrible companies that are big and established...

Another way to look at that: most startups fail, and working for a company that is failing is high stress.

[quasi lava]

whats the pathway for becoming programmer for life science research, like AI for drug discovery or making protein structures

[ocean ledge]

but also... don't discount startups-- i've worked pretty much exclusively at startups because they're a lot of fun, and when you're young that tension is exciting

[sudden quartz]

bioinformatcs, i would do biology primarily though, and minor in CS

[mortal wedge]

whats the pathway for becoming programmer for life science research, like AI for drug discovery or making protein structures
@quasi lava for me I did biomedical engineering with a focus on computer science but the other way around would work as well

being able to communicate cogently is extremely important, especially if you are at least semi-client facing
@dry sapphire not only that, I’ve found it invaluable in internal communications especially once you start managing projects or people.

[quasi lava]

thanks alot guys

[mortal wedge]

If it's a company you've heard of before that has actual employees, the chances that they're trying to ship code that you write for an interview to production are approximately zero. It's Much more likely they're giving you a problem they've already solved and found interesting
@summer roost Agree, but for my company they were trying to hire someone to fix a problem they haven’t been able to solve for years, so part of their interview was giving me a particularly hard to parse snippet and asking me to review/give my thoughts on what it did. My work later involved translating that to python

Really just curious if stealing code is common place I've heard a few things, but just a few things.
@viscid marten if they like what you did they’ll probably hire you as it would be way preferable than opening themselves up to legal liability

is it normal for people interviewing for devops positions to have a five hour live coding interview? this seems extremely excessive to me but I haven't interviewed in five years
@frozen spear love your pfp. Depends on the company. One of my interviews with a company did take all day. There were a lot of stakeholders in the process I guess

[visual briar]

I am curious as to whether having a strong background in mathematics helps with coding and has the possibility to increase employment opportunities. Currently I am an undergrad applied math major but I am taking cs classes because of my interest in applying for a cs grad program. Does anyone have any information or general comments about this?

[odd mauve]

Disclaimer: I've studied Biology and Environmental Engineering (separately, not concurrently) and met a number of people from the Bioinformatics world, but I have not actually worked in the field as a professional:
You need an understanding of biology to do drug discovery or predicting protein structures, but to be honest, what you need more than that, is an understanding of algorithms and computational computing. Because the actual biological parts of drug discovery or predicting protein structures is fairly limited compared to the knowledge needed to make the programs run fast and accurate enough to be of any use.

So in my opinion a computer science or data science background would be better in that world than a biology or even, to some extents, bioinformatics background.

[mortal wedge]

Having a strong math background really helps in understanding the theory behind data structures, algorithms, and especially AI. As for let's say hiring a programmer any STEM major is generally what a lot of companies look for.

[visual briar]

Thank you for the info. I appreciate it

[lofty lily]

Has anyone ever had a cs apprenticeship (little to no job experience, little pay, and they teach you)?

[ashen elk]

agree so much

but if there is an arm of a major organization/group can I write it as a startup on my CV? or would I have to mention that it wasn't independent - just an arm

[odd mauve]

That depends on what you want to show with it. If you want to show that you've worked for a major company and done well, then write that the company was a subsidiary of X company. If you want to show that you can work in a rapidly changing environment in rapid growth, don't mention that it's a subsidiary. They can always check up if they want to do it themselves. As long as it's an actual separate company and not a department, no one will be able to say anything.

[ashen elk]

As long as it's an actual separate company
I do believe it's separate - but also an arm. The only legal documentation was the NDA, and that was with the parent organization. so I should put it as a startup??

[odd mauve]

Well, you could always write that you're used to working in project development, frequently shifting directions due to new inputs and dealing with rapid growth spurts

[ashen elk]

hmmm....well, it does look good that way. thanx for the advice bruv!

[odd mauve]

You're welcome 🙂 Also, if you're unsure, can't you look it up online? At least in Denmark you can look up if a company is a subsidiary of another or if it exists as a separate entity at all

[sudden quartz]

Why applied mathematics and not statistics?

As long as you take the courses youre prepared. Applied Math, Stats, CS are all in the same ball field if you dont diverge too far in one. What you want to do your cs ms in matters, as far as job field youre good, and of couse specializing even more depends on what kind of job you want

[shadow mist]

How does one become a quant without a college degree?

[near ocean]

Short answer, you dont.

[shadow mist]

Have you ever been in that field?

[odd mauve]

"Quant" meaning "Quantum Physicist"?

[shadow mist]

"Quant" as in quantitative developer in finance.

[near ocean]

I have friends and family in that field, they all have multiple degrees
I dont see how you could convince a bank or an any other firm to hire you without an advanced degree in a numerate subject

I've also studied computational finance/risk management and i can tell you it hasnt been easy at all getting a job as a quant straight out of uni

[odd mauve]

Ah. Well, then, I'd say what I'd imagine friends in that sector would say:
While a university degree isn't enough to become a successful analyst or developer, it's the bare minimum for an employer to consider you.

Simply put: In the financial sector, as opposed to the IT-sector, degrees are par for the course. It's expected that you have some background in academics, and probably in economics, to be considered.

[summer roost]

Quants frequently have very high level math expertise. It's a reasonably common career transition for quantum physicists who want to move into industry from academia.

[shadow mist]

I'm currently a sophomore in college and I landed my first full time SWE role at a fin-tech company. I also work as a freelancer simultaniously and have ~3 years trading. I was under the assumption that all of this would be factored in my favor.

[tired dragon]

@shadow mist Where do you get freelancing jobs?

[shadow mist]

UpWork.

[near ocean]

Maths and econ profs very often like to complain that wallstreets of the world were full of physicists cause of the maths that are required
...or maybe it was my salty profs

[tired dragon]

oh nice. Do you develop algorithmic trading strategies?

[near ocean]

If youre a uni student why would you ask this question? Are you thinking about dropping out to work full time?

[shadow mist]

I do. That's what most of my work consists of. I create, back-test strategies and convert them into code.

[odd mauve]

One thing you have to remember is that the people who hire developers are often not developers themselves. In even more instances, the first line of selection is handled by people who don't necessarily know much about it. So they look at resume x and sees:
"Graduated from y University with Z degree"
and then at another without any Uni-degrees and choose the one with the Uni-degree nine times out of ten.

[tired dragon]

Ah nice man. I'm also a sophomore in college and want to go down the quantum finance road, but I'm not good at math. Are your algos profitable at least 50% of the time?😆

[shadow mist]

The answer is simple: Russian mother.

[near ocean]

Yea im not sure what that means

[odd mauve]

So while I think you may have a shot at doing it without finishing, I think it would be unwise not to finish your degree. Especially if you want to work in finance. Or if you want to be able to switch career path.

[near ocean]

Anyway since this is your first degree(i think) i personally would not drop out of uni for anything
Your bachelors is the one that matters most in life imho

[shadow mist]

@tired dragon Some are while some are not. Accuracy is only one of the variables that determine performance. @near ocean I'm wanting to drop out and head the self-taught route while continuing to trade and soon get into real estate investing. My mother is supportive of every idea apart from dropping out.

[near ocean]

Your mom's right, i would listen to her
Its only a couple of years left and since you already have experience youre not gonna struggle finding work afterwards, why risk it by dropping out

[odd mauve]

Depends on where you live. In Scandinavia a bachelors isn't worth a lot. You need a Master's in general.

[near ocean]

Uh, how do you expect to be accepted into a masters program without a bachelors degree

[shadow mist]

What bothers me is that fact I'm leaving quite a bit of money on the table by continuing to worry about college. I could spend this time taking more freelancing jobs and getting additional experience while also trying to get into real estate.

[odd mauve]

I wasn't talking about educationally, I was talking about the work force. The bachelor's is necessary, of course, but it's not sufficient.
@shadow mist Look at it this way:
The private market as a whole generally has a number of "groups" of salaries, which you can rise through.
As an independent, self-taught, developer, you may, if you can show that your work is good, skip a few steps.
If you're a college-educated developer with experience on the side, you can skip even more steps.

So your starting salary will be different.

[shadow mist]

True. Do you guys think that getting a degree online is a good idea?

[near ocean]

Thats pretty much the degree experience right now with the pandemic, no

[odd mauve]

Are you currently studying online? Because, let me be honest, if I were an HR-employee, I'd prefer a person who took a "proper" degree over an online degree. And I'm aware that's biased and sh*t, but I'm just being honest.

[shadow mist]

Well, here in NYC school is expected to be in person starting this automn. I'm hoping to never attend a real lecture again.

[tired dragon]

Are you planning on using your algo knowledge in the field of real estate?

[shadow mist]

Perhaps. I still haven't started in real estate because I've recently started making good money and I come from a modest family.

[tired dragon]

Nice man. I'm a finance major atm and am just really struggling with what aspect of finance I want to be in, whether it's real estate or investment portfolio management. Really not sure. But I am sure that algos could easily be used in real estate as well

[shadow mist]

I was once considering of majoring in finance or economics.

[tired dragon]

what are you getting your degree for right now?

[shadow mist]

Computer Science.

[tired dragon]

Nice! good luck

[calm sail]

So is there a list of places that you should have an account while looking for a job? I've seen people say you pretty much need Github, I've seen people mention linkdin, anything else that is recommended that would help in a job search?

[severe bison]

My fav job search website is indeed.com

[ocean ledge]

it depends on what kind of specialization you're talking about-- for example, most people in quantitative risk management and "traditional" wall street quants (those who price a lot of derivatives in sell-side firms) often have phds in a very quantitative field, mostly math and physics, but that's usually because of the nature of the type of work they're doing, e.g. pricing the entropy VaR of a particular credit exposure

but for most buy-side hedge funds, you can get by with just a bachelors-- though again, the good ones require a heavy math background, one much higher than most undergrads possess, so ymmv

granted-- i have seen some extraordinary people without degrees land at great places. off the top of my head i knew one at two sigma who does well for themselves. but we're also talking about former USAMO golds, so, you know

[ocean ledge]

your profs are just full of salt

[sudden quartz]

its the best imagine applying to be one of a million on linked in

[vapid jay]

I want to become a pilot

But I also want to become a software engineer

[glacial grove]

I want to join google

[little oyster]

sure you can

[vapid jay]

<!DOCTYPE html>
<html lang="en">
<head>
<meta charset="UTF-8">
<meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=edge">
<meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1.0">
<title>Document</title>
</head>
<body>
<script language="JavaScript" type="text/javascript">

    var password= "haxorleet";
    
    let foo = promt('Type password');
    if(foo==password)
    {
        alert('congratulations on solving this. Now submit this as flag')
    }
    </script>
<h1>Wrong password</h1>
<p><input type="button" value="Try Again" onclick="window.location.replace('./Index.html');"></p>

</body>
</html>

[plush galleon]

Are you talking about Rust in Webassembly?

[forest oyster]

Yes. If TS can compile to wasm then it's not a valid comparison I guess

[plush galleon]

You'd prefer someone with a on-site degree from a random university and you won't choose someone with online degree from Brown or Columbia?

[gray anvil]

Brown and Columbia give online degrees?

[gray anvil]

well if you like coding, mix the two together and pick up skills in a data viz software, learn some data manipulation with jupyter and pandas on your own, now you're 2x employable

[gray anvil]

trying to learn algos on your own might not be super productive, so build up a basic foundation first and look for work as in entry level business intelligence, data analysis or data science. And don't let people tell you DS is for masters trained CS people, at entry level theres plenty of work to be done that doesn't require the masters or phd

[forest oyster]

how do I deal with nerves for any time-based technical interviews? why does that happen?

[austere zealot]

How do I learn data structure and algorithm

[wraith maple]

I have a question about my upcoming internship for the summer, hope someone can help me, thanks in advance!
My question is that: Will joining a 2-year AI residency program affect your ability and chance of working as engineer or programmer?

[ashen elk]

Hmm...that looks interesting. can you tell me what exactly is an AI residency programme and what are the requirements for joining one?

[wraith maple]

Yes. You can look at the Google's one as an example: https://research.google/careers/ai-residency/
The description of the program on the front page:

The Google AI Residency Program is a 18-month research training role designed to jumpstart or advance your career in machine learning research.

You can think of it as a preparation stage for your application into a Phd program, so it will require more research-oriented skills than programming skills.
And that is what I'm scare of too, because if after the program, I can't make it to a phd program, then I will wasted 2 years on doing research, which less coding than most new grads.

[scarlet stratus]

Hello everyone

[dense mason]

Will you get a degree from it?

[wraith maple]

Hm no, I don't believe so.

[dense mason]

Then its quite risky imo

[copper steeple]

How important is MATLAB in python??
I just started learning it in my uni and don't know its uses...

[ashen elk]

ehh, requires the person to be in college. 😒
if you are interested in AI, I don't see why it won't be good for you @wraith maple since there are some testimonials from people who did the residency programme and are now in google.

[severe bison]

ok

[wraith maple]

Thanks for your answer @dense mason and @ashen elk , what I am afraid is that there are more roles and more jobs in the industry than Researcher for AI-relevant jobs, so will joining the program might reduce my chance of getting a good job later, if I am not really success at researching?

[dense mason]

Well if you already have research experience and know how it should work then I think chances are great for you to do some qualiy work in such a program
especially in AI

[ocean ledge]

i'm confused-- what is your goal? to be a ml researcher? or just work in ml?

[wraith maple]

My goal is to be a ML researcher, but I'm worry in case that I don't have the skills to be one.

[sudden quartz]

if you can get a masters you have the skills to be a researcher

wait what is your goal? a phD or reasearch? highly unlikely no phD programs will accept you unless your credentials are that low quality. you can do research positions with a masters or that google thing then go for phD later after a research job

[wraith maple]

Umm, I think that I want to go straight from the AI residency program to a phd program. Do you think that is possible?
I am currently in the process of studying for a master's degree as well.

[serene zephyr]

hey im assuming there are many CSE/CS graduates here and doing jobs, if any of you see my text I'd like to ask you, are you happy with your pay and are you okay with your working hour? i'd like to know

[dense mason]

Possible if the program is paper-oriented and could help you build connections with the academia (to get you some nice referees)

[fringe pine]

Hey @serene zephyr. Sorry, recruitment is not permitted here.

[summer roost]

Representing yourself well under pressure is a skill that you need to build up, like any other. You could try doing some competitive programming to learn how to design algorithms and solve problems under time pressure. You could start doing mock interviews with a career advisor, or with friends or family who've been involved in interviewing people in the past. And you can just apply for more jobs and try to get more interviews - interviewing well is a skill that only improves with practice.

[worthy fjord]

Hello can I talk with someone with experience in React.js or an experienced HR
I'm struggling in my job search and would appreciate a conversation

[modest shadow]

Hello. What do you think is the biggest difference between a data scientist and a data analyst?

I think there is no clear distinction.

[fringe pine]

I think essentially a data scientist is expected to know how to program. I've often heard it said that a data scientist "knows more about programming than a statistician, and more about statistics than a programmer", although this may not be saying much.

[cedar ore]

As an employer I'd pick the person that has shown interest in other fields in a heartbeat, so IMHO go for it. Source: have hired engineers before

[neon moat]

titles mean nothing, completely depends on what company you work for, being a 'data analyst' for one company might mean you are just parsing and creating reports from CSV files and might mean something completely different for another company

[sudden quartz]

Data Scientists program. In a real position they are data engineers + data analysts plus some.

[vapid jay]

hey y'all

[mint maple]

hi

[plush galleon]

Yes and pretty good ones according to their degrees' pages

[plush galleon]

It doesn't serve the best purposes actually
MATLAB is more research-oriented whereas Python is a general-purpose programming language

[ocean ledge]

eh, online degrees, even from good universities are sketchy. hell, masters degrees from columbia are sketchy since many of them are diploma-mill-ish

though don't forget kids, brown <<<< columbia, not even a competition

[vapid jay]

Hi everyone. I'm a newcomer in the programming world and decided to learn Python as my first language because apparently it's the easiest to start with. My goal is to switch career in a near future but i don't know what are the types of jobs i can get access to with Python. Also i was wondering if learning programming from scratch without a degree can be an issue in my employability. Is there a curriculum available online which can provide me a level sufficient enough to be job ready? If not, what steps should i follow in my learning journey in order to be so?
Thank you :)

[sacred rune]

Python is a great language to get a job! For what I know, there are companies that hire self-taught programmers, so don't worry.

Something that I do recommend you to have in your journey is a lot of tenacity, don't give up, sometimes, it might seem like you're reaching nowhere, and that you aren't doing a good job, but do not give up, keep fighting, keep studying, and you'll get there.

Practice lots, it is important that you practice programming lots, because you could have a bunch of knowledge but you need to put it down, so practicing is great

There is a bunch of resources that are very useful online to get started. You could try JetBrains academy for 30 days. stuff like that
You could also go for books if you desire, the books I recommend are Python Crash Course, and Effective Python.

And another thing, believe in yourself. You are smart and you can do this :)

!resources here are some resources you can check if you desire!

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[gilded swan]

Have any of you gotten a job as a self taught programmer?

[ocean ledge]

yup

[sleek turtle]

j

[vapid jay]

Thanks for all the recomendations and motivation ! I will give "Python crash course" a try.

[sacred rune]

it's great!

[plush galleon]

What do you mean by "diploma-mill-ish"?

[sleek turtle]

j

[ocean ledge]

they're diploma-mills. fairly minimal acceptance criteria, lots of pay-to-win, easy course requirements. that's how masters degrees are at many universities-- of course, phd programs at such universities could be considered among the best in the world, but those have vastly different calibers of applicants

[gray anvil]

-hard to be choosy in this economy
-after 2 years, focus your cv on your responsibilities and accomplishments. Testimonials are for your profile site or LinkedIn

[gray anvil]

Gonna agree with Pasta here, the reason you have to say "online" degree is to make the distinction from, well, a proper one

[summer roost]

the degree that you get isn't gonna say "online" anywhere on it. Don't call it an online degree and the employer will never know the difference.

[half minnow]

In my experience just apply to all positions that fit your skill set/interest you; from there it will be a game of you and employers mutually weeding each other out. Just be warned, the job market is a little slow right now......I have never seen a resume with client testimonials;but it sounds like you are in consulting, I don't have experience there

[serene zephyr]

Wdym recruitment i asked nothing about it

[shell walrus]

can i get a job in programming without degree

[sudden quartz]

you'd be gambling for sure, and would eventually find it in your interest to get a degree if you ever do find a stable position. Network network network

[shell walrus]

what about coding camp does it help any

[summer roost]

Getting a programming job without a degree is a far harder path. It's possible, but not easier.

[sudden quartz]

when youre a 'self-taught' programmer, everything helps...

[gray anvil]

any degree or related degree?
any degree is a stretch, a degree is a signal of competence more than it is a signal of applicable knowledge to the job role

[frozen fulcrum]

wait, what do you mean by that?

?

[slim violet]

It's a proof of knowledge of scientific approach, long term grit and ability to finish what you started. What it does not show is love to the art.

[foggy blaze]

Hello. im from 6th grade and im keen on python. im from Belarus (its between russia and poland)

[torpid imp]

Hellow, Im working gui programming with tkinter peakage, which pyqt and kivy for learn?

[plush galleon]

Would you say master's are pretty useless?

[plush galleon]

No one would pay for online degrees if they still made this distinction

[swift veldt]

Online diplomas can find their value as a part-time workload. i.e. working and learning on the side can go very well hand-in-hand. In the US and EU banking industry (my experience so far), you can have your company sponsor your online degree as it can be part of your training.

[peak halo]

I've gotten an interview request for a data scientist position, and they gave me a questionnaire to fill out before hand. One of the questions is Are you proficient in data exploration techniques and tools?, and I'm not really sure what they're referring to. I've done data wrangling, data visualization, and I know how to manipulate tabular data with both sql and pandas. But idk if that's what they're asking.

[plush galleon]

I am not concerned about this aspect of degrees

[limber rampart]

I think that's probably a good answer. I'd say the same ~ maybe point out some specifics, datavis frameworks or tools you've used, or a concrete example of what you explored and what you had found.

[peak halo]

Thanks!

[mortal wedge]

Data visualization, data wrangling, and being able to apply statistics knowledge to the data is what our company meant when we asked the question. Basically, given a bunch of data, can you make insights regarding it and perform tasks like clustering, histograms, feature extraction, etc.

[mortal wedge]

Is it possible yes, but it's going to be extremely difficult. I can't remember the last time a resume has made it to me when they didn't have a degree.

[peak halo]

Am I to understand, then, that you participate in the hiring process for a company that hires data scientists?

(I ask because the specific wording of your response sounds as though you're the one who contacted me.)

[mortal wedge]

Yes, I had a hand in the hiring process for the hiring of data scientists. and LOL, I'm probably not.

[peak halo]

Thanks for your answer!

[mortal wedge]

No problem. Good luck to you! Hope you get the role.

[peak halo]

I'll give you a tentative "thanks!" because they're deliberately vague about what the position entails. But such is life when looking for jobs in the DC area.

[mortal wedge]

Hmm, vagueness is a little odd. Generally companies are willing to give you a decent amount of details regarding what you'll be working on, especially if you ask (obviously can't give too much).

[peak halo]

Even when the job requires a security clearance?

[mortal wedge]

Oh! That's different then. I didn't realize it required a sec clearance. Those jobs I applied for were pretty vague. We don't require a sec clearance for anything at my company, so I couldn't speak to the hiring process.

[mortal wedge]

I would like to chime in to agree with this. Even if employers once cared about the distinction, the culture has changed. Due to covid, people are a lot more lenient regarding online learning.

How do you like consulting/service firms? You'd likely be contracted out to different companies. This will give you a lot of different projects/experience. Or would you rather go more in depth into fewer projects? That's the sort of experience you'd probably get if you didn't go into consulting/service firms.

I think client testimonials/referrals are a good idea. I don't know if putting the testimonials on your resume is a good idea, but definitely put the clients and what you did for them on it.

[mortal wedge]

Me! It can happen. It's harder to get interviews, but as long as you know your stuff once you get the interview, then you're all good.

[mortal wedge]

Matlab and Python are separate programming languages. Matlab is great for modeling/simulation and has a lot of helpful tools. Python can somewhat simulate this through a variety of modules. Let me know if this makes sense or you'd like more details, I have a lot of familiarity with the use of both in the industry.

[mortal wedge]

I would expect a data scientist to know how to program and create data visualizations. I would expect an analyst to be able to use tools provided to them.

[mortal wedge]

Don't worry, I think they assumed your post was recruitment, but it doesn't look like it is

[flat tree]

Had a resume related question: what's the norm when it comes to the projects section of the resume? do you list all relevant projects that youve worked on in the field, or is it better to cherry pick only a few top projects

[summer roost]

Resumes aren't just lists of facts about you, they're advertisements trying to sell you to a company. I think of them like a poster for an event. People will stop reading them if they're too long, or do a poor job of showing off the highlights of what makes you worth employing. So, I'd definitely only list a few cherry picked projects that you think show off skills that the employer would want to see.

[summer roost]

Assuming this is for a first job after college and that this is in the US, I wouldn't go past 1 page for the resume. And as for what to give space to, projects are less important than previous industry experience, internships, teaching assistant jobs, etc

[flat tree]

ah, not for first job, say someone has done work projects, maybe 2-5 years in the industry. their first or second switch

[summer roost]

Then projects are even less important, honestly, unless you think they highlight a very particular skill that you think the employer will want and none of your professional experience covered. Like if you're trying to transition into a machine learning, and you want to show off a classifier you've built even though none of your previous jobs have been in that area.

[marsh wind]

I m yet to do a switch, but I think projects for that are only important if they showcase you did something very relevant to job you apply for while at same time past work experience is only semi/non relevant

Lol geek, you've beaten me to it, typing on the phone is not very efficient 😂

[summer roost]

Agreement from others means I'm on the right track, though! 🙂

[summer roost]

When you say "has done work projects" - those should be listed in the "experience" section of a resume, not a "projects" section.

Only open source/hobby projects would go into a "projects" section. And those usually drop off as people get older, and start to have kids and busier lives and hobbies that aren't exactly what they spend 40 hours a week doing.

[flat tree]

Ah, i guess i've been using the phrase projects wrong then. Thanks for the answers so far, and apologies i never really asked the question i intended to

So, what's the norm about the experience section of the resume for people maybe 2-5 years in the industry while switching? Do you have to list every single..uh...task?..(help me find a good substitute for..."work project? work..activities? work jobs?") or cherry pick

[summer roost]

Maybe "assignments" or "responsibilities". Still definitely not every single thing, only the major things, or the most interesting things, or the things you think would best sell you. The norm would be in the ballpark of 3 to 6 bullet points per prior job, each one describing some particular thing that you were responsible for.

e.g. "Maintained a Flask REST API for querying account details, handling over 10,000 concurrent requests" might be one bullet point.

[icy latch]

Hello,
First of all apologies if I had asked this question in wrong channel.
I have a real dumb question.

For the past few days i have been search hard that what tools do people use for building their resume/CV. I would like to know about you guys too. What softwares do you use to build your resumes?
latex?
ms word?
figma?
illustrator?
adobe indesign?
canva?
or some online platform?(pls name it as it'd be helpful to others)

[marsh wind]

Mine is in latex, my gf has it in canva

[pulsar drum]

I use latex

[summer roost]

Mine's in LaTeX, which is a language I don't actually know. I edit it in a WYSIWYG LaTeX editor, like Overleaf

[pulsar drum]

I found two similar, simple templates on some random GitHub repos and merged them together into something I like. It's not the most manageable thing but it's not like you're gonna be updating it every day.

[marsh wind]

yeah I got some template idk where.and then tampered with it a bit

[sudden quartz]

what is your degree credential and do you have good prestige

[peak halo]

Why do you ask? What do you mean by prestige?

[sudden quartz]

Google docs

[peak halo]

I have mine in latex and it's a git repository. Latex is really valuable, in my opinion.

[sudden quartz]

Where did you go to school, is it a high ranking program?
Did you take many Data Science or Statistics classes?
What is your major and what is your degree?

[peak halo]

I'm not sure why this is relevant to my initial question. I'm about to finish a computer science degree from a state university. I took a statistics class and all the data science/ai courses available.

[sudden quartz]

Im asking for myself. I also took one statistics class and im doing data science concentration
but i have math minor
Data exploration techniques and tools sounds like how you FIND the data and what data you find.
also im taking a ton of classes so the concentraion is just something i picked up lol

[summer roost]

"data exploration" refers to taking a data set and discovering interesting information or patterns from it. Like plotting it to find outliers, or binning it to find percentiles, or things like that.

[ocean ledge]

data exploration is also like, 90% of the job, even at good places. my interview for a role at point72 was half EDA on large data sets

similarly for most hedge funds of that caliber

[marsh wind]

@ocean ledge.72 sounds familiar. Aren't they parent company to Cubist?

[ocean ledge]

yeah, good ol steve cohen funds

[marsh wind]

Yeah I met them on one job fair, had good exchange but in the end they did not even invite me for proper interview, only asked for updated CV

[ocean ledge]

yeah, point72 is pretty up there in selectivity... but they do do some cool shit. only problem is its in connecticut

[marsh wind]

Kind of a pity too, the guy I exchanged with seemed genuinely interested, but probably he's not one making decisions. Nah it was in Paris not in US

[swift veldt]

Point72, like 2Sigma are quite selective.

[icy latch]

i asked to other people and they said that if you dont know latex then don't build your resume w it. and now i am left in confusion :'(

[sudden quartz]

dont even build your resume in LaTeX. nobody cares

[pulsar drum]

I don't agree. I didn't know much latex but I managed to figure out enough to build my resume. It's not recommend to have overly complicated/fancy resume formats anyway, so naturally you won't need to know much to be able to build your own.

That being said, if you're not willing to invest the time to learn latex, then don't use it. Don't feel like you have to use it just cause others do. There are many other viable tools, as listed above.

dont even build your resume in LaTeX. nobody cares
If you're trying to say to not use it for the sake of satisfying the opinions of others, then I agree. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be used at all.

[true harness]

latex really isn't that difficult if you have any experience in programming

[pastel quail]

even when I didn't have any experience in programming, it wasn't very difficult (although I didn't do anything fancy with it)

[peak halo]

My point is that I think learning latex is worth while, so this is a question of whether or not you have time to do that. And like Mark said, you don't have to be a latex power user to use a latex resume template.

[mortal wedge]

Cherry pick a top few, bonus points if you pick a top few that are relevant to the role or company where you're applying

[leaden jasper]

I use word if that helps. I have a basic simple template I use and it's gotten me far enough

[mortal wedge]

Just to chime in on the discussion re: resume parsing, have at least one version that looks okay if translated to plaintext. Complicated formatting can get butchered by an ATS parser. If you want your nice looking resume that's fine, use it when you hand it out or if you're getting it directly to a hiring manager.

[marsh wind]

Or if you're in Europe. Doesn't seem to be ats everywhere

[tired dragon]

What if they have a college degree, just in a different sector like finance? I am learning python to apply it to finance. Would you see resumes like this?

[shadow moss]

I'd say unless it's job where graphic design matters, all resumes you send out should be easily plain text, if it's more graphical, like UI designer, it should be convertible to plain text but still look decent.

Data Scientist/Engineer, very basic resume is fine. Remember, after your resume is scanned by ATS, a real human will read it, don't get off on wrong foot by making it not fun to read. Also, they may print your resume, don't make that an awful experience. Yes, when I'm interviewing someone, I still print off resume, it's more human then staring at laptop screen, doesn't have "battery" issues and gives me a place to easily write notes

[orchid ivy]

this is actually more common than you think. industry-specific jobs prefer (although they don't require) you to have a background/interest in that industry. i graduated with accounting degrees, but went on to pursue software engineering in finance.

[tired dragon]

Ah cool! Thanks for the info

[sudden quartz]

what type?

[orchid ivy]

what type of what? lol

[mortal wedge]

In my experience both when applying and when having a decision in the hiring process, I generally just want to see a STEM degree. Fianance and Python sounds fine.

[sudden quartz]

what type of development are you doing

[orchid ivy]

front & backend. i develop apps to be used internally for our front/middle/and back-office units.

[forest oyster]

what would be the best free online course/study plan for a mid level (~ 5 years) software dev without a cs degree (I took stats) to enroll in, to learn the fundamentals+essentials that a cs grad would otherwise usually have from a T1 undergrad/masters CS degree. In terms of practical skills I know Python, Java, JS, Rust and a bunch of others but I am bad at data structures & algorithms, systems design, OSes, etc. It'll be also good if I can put it on my resume.

[ocean ledge]

resume? none unless you get a new degree (extremely not recommended, your stats degree is great)

fundamental study plan? check out https://teachyourselfcs.com/

[forest oyster]

yea. the goal is the solidify my CS fundamentals and write good code

[ocean ledge]

i have a background in pure math, did that in a few months during my first job as a data sci

[forest oyster]

thanks, how would you rate that resource? it looks good.

[ocean ledge]

now i work in ml infra/engineering, and the fundamentals are extremely valuable in that work, so i think its good-- sorry, slowdown

if there are two things i think you could focus on... learn distsys and oses...

i swear, knowing enough to understand how file mounts work + rudimentary k8s could pretty much double your income on the right team :P

[sudden quartz]

what are those?

also which job you like more?
which you think would be more fitting for a CS major math minor

[mortal wedge]

Is your goal to learn the sort of fundamental theory that a CS major would know? Or are you just trying to prove yourself to employers for interviewing purposes?

[forest oyster]

I want to be a pro

[mortal wedge]

What do you mean by that?

[hearty island]

It clearly means they want to be a pro 😛 /s

[mortal wedge]

It looks like you already know which areas you need to work on. Data structures and algorithms are fundamental to computer science. I think the bot might know some good free resources, I did a paid one so I could get a certificate to go on my resume/linkedin. I'm trying to suss out if you just want to learn the practical side or if you want to have the underlying math/theory down as well.

[copper steeple]

Yeah I understand what you're saying. Thanks man

[copper steeple]

Oh I see...

[forest oyster]

I want everything down haha. Just need to know how to organize my time

[mortal wedge]

Ah, gotcha. I was in a similar boat, I only really delved into codeacademy and coursera, though. Coursera was pretty grueling and I felt like it fully prepared me, but it does have a monthly cost. (But the more you work in that month the more you get out of it.) Code Academy was great for a taster, but it just wasn't as good.

Have you gotten a chance to check out the resources the bot has? There are some pretty good ones there. Ultimately there are a wide variety of paid and free resources and it all boils down to what you learn best from.

What I DID like about coursera was that they had specializations/tracks you could follow which sounds closest to what you were asking.

You could probably take a look at their course track and then study off of that, even if you don't use their services

[forest oyster]

Yes I'm looking for a specialisation. I'm love coding in general so I do all sorts of work hence my skills are scattered everywhere. I want to focus on something long term

Ideally it will be innovative, technically challenging and helpful to the world.

[mortal wedge]

That's a great idea! There's a lot of work that can fall into those categories. You might try exploring to see what you want to specialize in, then build your track/plan to that. What I would recommend someone who wants to get into data engineering would be different than what I'd recommend for someone interested in AI, for example.

[forest oyster]

What's the best "bang for your buck" side project to work on that can be useful and impress on a resume, helo me familiarize with rust and CS101, potentially financially rewarding, and useful for learning new (or niche) techs that will be in high demand in future?

[forest oyster]

I like programming more than I like ML tho. I find myself doing more trial and error than problem solving

[mortal wedge]

That's a great question and unfortunately one that's hard to answer. Python has so many uses that it's hard to think of a general use case project. If you were a full stack dev I'd recommend coding some kind of web app that also let people create accounts and log in. People are also suckers for mobile apps.

[forest oyster]

Actually I was thinking of using Rust not Python 😂. Not sure if ur familiar with it.

[mortal wedge]

Oh, okay! I know that it's low level language that's starting to grow in popularity, and that's about it.

Most of my familiarity with low level languages are in the realm of embedded development and micro-controllers.

In most resumes I've seen or submitted, there was no objective/intro.

Your goal is to get a job, they know that, you're applying to one. As far as your experience, they should be able to see that by looking at your resume.

[ocean ledge]

implement a file system in rust... pretty standard OS class project

[mortal wedge]

So... should I remove that? I have seen lots of resumes with these intro lines...but i didn like them as they are not specifying any objective. That's why i added my preferences of learning.
@dark whale I would recommend removing them. Are you having a hard time filling a page for your resume? It just takes up valuable space at the top of a resume without providing anyone additional information they can use to gauge your candidacy

[inner turtle]

Guys i have question for you:

How many of you work as Python programmers* ?

(by "programmer" I do mean as a python programmer, not a data analyst that USES python, nor a web developer that USES python.)

[fallen creek]

🇻🇪

[violet magnet]

I want a career change to break into an environment where I can use my tech skills at my job, but I simply do not have the experience or credentials/network to get a developer job. I've been doing tech pretty seriously as a hobby for about two years. I casually played around at it before that.

I was an English major who did not finish school and have worked a lot in retail.

But I can be the tech guy better than most people with no experience yet.

What job should I apply for if not a developer to break into the world of offices and using computers. Or do i just need to keep looking and gaining exp.

shanerowden.github dot io

[orchid ivy]

narrow down to which industry you'd like to work in. then cater your dev projects to that interest. for example, if you want to work for a bank, then create a banking application.

[rare cosmos]

what type of projects do yall think would be good to have on a resume

[inner turtle]

hi vic, i believe that is a very relative question. Depends on what you want to apply for

if you're applying for an ITSec job, having web dev projects might not be the most relevant type of experience - just an example

[rare cosmos]

ah okay. so if i wanted to go for a software engineer position, would a few web dev projects look good? ex Django, fastapi and such

[inner turtle]

if that SE position would involve web stuff, definitely!

even if it doesn't it always looks good as involvement in different projects shows proactivity etc

[rare cosmos]

alright, thanks a lot. appreciate the input.

[sudden quartz]

get an it positon, and the like

[plush galleon]

You could build an alternative to Qt in Rust

[sweet solar]

i wanna build a mask detector and send an alert by email containing the image

what technology should i use ?

[marsh wind]

how web dev who uses Python is not a Python programmer?

[inner turtle]

i was just discussing that with a friend of mine who is a web dev with Django.
i thought that the scope of the position would involve other things besides python - and python would be more of a tool

but i was wrong.

nonetheless, my initial question comes from the fact that more python "programmers" use python as a tool that aids them in their job, even if python is not the main thing.
This does not happen with (most) other languages

[golden spruce]

hey can someone help me with how i get started with building softwares like billing software or invoice maker. I made them with tkinter but i want them in attractive modern gui . i how do i acheive this.thanks in advance.

[peak halo]

This would be a question for #user-interfaces

[dense hamlet]

What is the best book for Django?

[lucid vapor]

Personally, I don't think you need a book. The docs and the tutorial are very good. https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/3.2/intro/tutorial01/

[dark mica]

what does a backend developer do exactly?

[dense hamlet]

do what client don't see

create server side app, storage data, security, sending notification, integrations,

[peak halo]

If a company asks when i can start working, is it reasonable to put down a week after I graduate? I really want to give myself some time to breathe but I don't want to disqualify myself for a given position. I graduate on the 16th.

[leaden jasper]

I would say that's reasonable. I'd even put down 2 weeks. I think that's more just to make sure you don't have some summer plans and can't actually start working until like August or something.

[peak halo]

No time for summer plans--I have to start working before I lose my insurance 🇺🇸

[buoyant seal]

1 week is quite normal. even craziest companies doing startups, usually don't mind giving 1 week to finish your small stuff

[vast shoal]

Hiring a developer is not like hiring a store clerk, it's not like one person is as good as the next.

If they decided that you're a good fit, they're probably not gonna drop you because you're not available 5 days earlier. (Also, holy slowmode, Batman)

[mortal wedge]

It's rare that a company is on such a time crunch that asking for a week is a disqualifier. Average is probably two weeks, since most assume you have a job beforehand and will have to give notice. If a company really likes you, they're willing to wait a month or more for you, but then that starts pushing it.

[vapid jay]

yikes

[vast shoal]

If they make a bad choice, it's gonna cost them way way more than those 5 days. For reference, when I switch jobs my new employers usually have to wait ~3 months due to the average contract-bound notice period in my country.

[mortal wedge]

That is an intensely long waiting period.

[vast shoal]

Well, it's nice for my former employer, if I'm in an important position

[mortal wedge]

For sure

[vast shoal]

And, as I said, it's standard in my country in software

[mortal wedge]

Seems like a decent thing for skilled positions. 3 months would be sufficient for me to wrap up current projects

[mortal wedge]

I think it's more of a philosophical question than a practical one. I am a programmer and all of my code is in Python. However, I just use it as a tool to create libraries, to do process things, to visualize things, etc. Even in the most programmy of programming roles, as you grow in your career you'll find yourself coding less and less and spending more time doing thinky/planny stuff.

[inner turtle]

Yeah it's definitely philosophical

[chilly oriole]

Could I get a job in software engineering while I'm still a graduate? Or should I wait until after I graduate

And spend that time making projects

[vast shoal]

I think both types of positions exist. If, for example, a business based around a web app has a Python backend, you may very well have a set of very Python-centric duties (as was the case for me). But Python is also a widely used language in data science for example, and people in data science-focused roles will use it more as one subordinated tool among a larger set of work duties.

[craggy wave]

Most of the Python developers in the company (consultancy) I work for focus on Python as their main language. That doesn't mean that you don't touch upon other languages, depending on the specific project, but our Python unit specialises in Python-based applications rather than projects where Python is used a scripting language to glue together other solutions. We have a varied set of clients, think of large banks, police, government, and large national/multinational corporations. So, I'd say both kind of positions exist. We also have units that use Python as a tool to do other things, like our security and data science units.

[mortal wedge]

Honestly I'd just recommend aiming to line up jobs for after you graduate while maybe doing coops/internships while you're a grad over your breaks.

[shadow moss]

That’s fine. Likely you can move back to 2 weeks if you want.

[hardy silo]

i maybe pushing my luck but I always tend to say 3-4 weeks

2 week notice, 1-2 week vacation before working so i come in with a fresh mind.

[quartz nimbus]

Clever boy

[vapid jay]

i started learning python3 almost 2 months now i finished "Automate The Boring Stuff With Python" book

im more confident with python3 now but i dont know where to take it from here

any recommendation ?

im into web backEnd

[vast shoal]

@vapid jay Work on your own projects. If you're into web backend, make a backend-heavy web project and put the code on Github.

Or several. Find something that interests you and learn how to build it.

[vapid jay]

i got you i was hopping for a course recommedation that i should take

or what framework should i learn @vast shoal

[vast shoal]

I don't think it matters super much which framework you choose, especially not at this stage.

Django is a big Python backend framework, lots of stuff to sink your teeth into.

So you could go with that, for example.

[vapid jay]

yeah that sounds interesting

[wanton helm]

do you guys think that software engineering is going to be that big in the future because im starting to have some doubts

[vast shoal]

It seems very likely.

I don't see any reason why demand for software would suddenly drop significantly.

Seems more plausible that it'll continue to grow as a sector.

[silent wing]

ye

[calm sail]

What level of coding challenges are we likely to get pre interview (assuming entry-level software developer) or does it vary pretty greatly?

[lapis wind]

As in like a online thing like hackerrank or some other online site?

For me when i applied i got two different site really that they tested on (two different companies) both are pretty much the same style https://codesignal.com/developers/interview-practice/ and https://www.hackerrank.com/

For me it was alot of list logic, loop stuff etc... Not necessarily advanced but it's more aimed to be problem solving vs being hard to code (in my experience)

For actual interview stuff for me it was basically a "here is some code in x language read through it, have a play, fix some bugs" fairly simple bugs mostly logical, and then "Here is X task(s) write some code for it to pass these tests..." which are also fairly simple

For online tests it was mostly logical thinking, would recommend codesignal pretty fun and teaches you stuff regardless.
For me it was less about the code and much more on how you approach the problem with the Live interviews

[mortal wedge]

When I was applying to FAANG and similar companies, they all asked DSA questions, ranging from easy to medium questions.

Easiest I got was sort this list, hardest I got was probably Amazon's, they had me solving a pretty tricky algorithmic puzzle

[buoyant seal]

Read hitchikers guide to python
That book covers everything there is there
And where to go after that
Good to begin road

[forest oyster]

anyone work in trading (crypto markets)? what do they typically test on technical interviews? not a quant role, more of a developer.

so I have an interview coming up which is related to distributed systems, but no in-depth experience needed. I want to be able to impress with my knowledge abt these things. what core concepts/technologies should I familizarize myself with?

[summer roost]

Core distributed systems concepts would include message queues, pub/sub messaging, consensus algorithms like paxos and raft, the Byzantine Generals problem, and the proof of work system behind blockchain, plus an understanding of databases and transactions, and eventually-consistent systems

[forest oyster]

this is helpful, I'll look them up. tyvm! proof of work only? would proof of stake apply to algotrading? I need to know about consensus algorithms and Byzantine etc.? aren't those more theoretical blockchain stuff? since crypto is just another asset to be traded I don't think I really need to understand those concepts. would like to focus on the important stuff.

things like stream-based processing, DSA, etc.

[summer roost]

I don't work in algorithmic trading or in blockchain, so I couldn't say for sure what they're likely to care most about, or how much they care about theory. I'd expect they'd want at least some level of understanding of fault tolerance, and what a Byzantine fault is, though, if they want to talk about distributed systems. "stream based processing" is going to mean the same thing as either message queueing (if the goal is for every task to be processed only once, or only twice, etc) or pub/sub (if the goal is for everyone who is interested to be able to subscribe to a stream of events).

But usually the interesting distributed systems questions are how you make sure that everything that should be processed is, and how to decide who is responsible for processing it.

I have hired for distributed systems roles in the past, but not for algorithmic trading, so it's possible that the things that matter to them might be different. I would think not, but I don't know for sure.

It's probably enough to know of the existence of paxos and raft, without knowing any particular details. Of all the things I named, they're the most esoteric.

[forest oyster]

well pub/sub is just the observer-listener pattern but across different servers right? in a way

[summer roost]

Sure - different mechanism, but the same basic goal

An analogy would be radio - someone decides to broadcast something others might be interested in, and anyone who wants to tune into that broadcast can.

[forest oyster]

except that listeners know who is broadcasting but in pub/sub subs don't know who is publishing the messages?

[summer roost]

They might, they might not.

The subscribers care what is being published, but they shouldn't care what system specifically is publishing those messages. If the system publishing those messages was replaced by an entirely new system, the subscribers wouldn't have to care, so long as the new publisher was able to publish compatible messages

[floral warren]

does anyone know how to make decisions in python like by using two bottoms and once you press one it like chooses that decision?

[vapid jay]

I am a newcomer in Python and learning it as a hobby.
I was wondering if there is any future in freelancing in Python?
I'm not talking about as a full time job but as a side/parttime job.
I don't know enough about freelancing, how easy it is to find work and what skill-level is required, so any advice is welcome.

[vapid jay]

So in python if we write a code for data structure like linked list the complexity of operations like insertion and deletion increases.Is it disadvantageous to use this language for interview purposes.

[digital fjord]

complexities will always be the same

what changes is the actual time taken

[forest oyster]

What are some important data structures/algorithms in trading systems that an aspiring algo dev/quant should know?

[jovial turtle]

hi, i am interested in studying computer science but i have no idea what to major, i would actually want to work in games/apps developing but i am completely green in all of that stuff, don't know what basics in programming i need to study cs. I have no actual knowledge in coding besides basics in c++, second year in high school

[vast shoal]

If you study computer science or software engineering, that will generally qualify you for most or all types of development jobs, including working in games. I don't know exactly how the education system works in your country, but if you have the opportunity, choosing electives that focus on simulation and graphics may be advantageous.

[jovial turtle]

the poit is that my future collage only shows department of cs as whole they don't have specific majors listed on their site

[vast shoal]

The same applies to other domains, study core CS and SE, and then choose electives (or maybe minor in?) the domain you are interested in (like for example, finance, or something)

Well, if there's a CS department, they probably have some kind of generalized CS/SE courses.

You can't really go wrong with that, imo.

[jovial turtle]

yes thank you i will look more into it ❤️

[sudden quartz]

A Computer Science degree qualifies you for anything software. Its the consummate and most respected software degree. That said you are a beginner. Go on youtube and do some game development tutorials, you actually dont need much hardcoding for simple game dev with Unity or Unreal Engine, or Babylon.js

pick up a book too <- many can solve their question aboubwhat they want to do with this, and of course asking questions to seniors which youre doing

[sudden quartz]

Once you take the core classes you can specialize in whatever you want. Dont forget university is just about taking whatever classes you want and gaining knowledge.

And go to HACKATHONS

Some programs you can specialize before that, if your program is from your Math department prob not

[sudden quartz]

Mobile dev field is much different than game dev field by the way. Go look at the jobs you can get in the field, and mabye try youtube videos about peoples jobs in the field. Hackathons work too for this so go to them when possible

game dev has a rep for being low pay, real competitive, and unstable espcially compared to mobile dev which is pretty lucrative

[jovial turtle]

thank you so much friend it's really helpful

[forest oyster]

Flutter any good?

[sudden quartz]

I dont do any mobile dev, but Flutter is a cross-platform app development kit if im correct. Its typically not as good as a dev kit for one or the other android and ios, but if cross-platform is necessary for your project go for it

[acoustic yacht]

What can I do in my life if I hate and don't understand compiled language but am capable of making game engine whiteout lib in python.Do I need to give up my programmer sutdies and find something else ? (I have being tricked by the education because it as made me learn python and so didn't realise what real prog was)

[fiery wind]

Chaii

[ocean ledge]

what? python is a programming language, how were you tricked into anything

[acoustic yacht]

its no usabel from what I want to do and its not what you use in college

[river sun]

guys i need some remote or freelancer job, i am a python developer can create guis, apps, with python. Canndo machine learning in it too

[ashen elk]

uhhhh...no? python is used in a lot of places, and some concepts you learn from CS can be carried over to other languages as well. one of the most notable places python is used is AI/ML/Data science

[ocean ledge]

its used... at pretty much all the at-least-decent universities in the world. i find it hard to believe you're at a school where its not used at all

[hollow ridge]

software engineering and CS , whats the different? i am studyng the first one

[sudden quartz]

well id have to see the actual classes, but a software engineering degree means your education and classes is more oriented towards the job and practice of software engineering.

CS degree is pretty much anything software along with the theoretical foundations of computing and maths

Software engineering is pretty much what you want to do if you want to be a programmer, you skip all the things unnecessary for Software Engineering. Computer Science isnt oriented torwards landing you a job and is more like a statistics or math degree.

This varies heavily depending on your school however, and most CS degrees have a SWE class. The difference is very slim in practice

[summer roost]

If the school only offers one, it's probably substantially the same thing. If the school offers both, it's likely that software engineering focuses more on building larger software systems, design, scalability, possibly distributed systems, and so on, whereas computer science will likely focus more on the mathematical foundations of computer science, the theory of computation, graph theory, and so on. There will be a lot of overlap either way.

[vapid jay]

You should know how an order books works, basic architecture of uniswap v1,2,3 would also be a plus. Experience with implementing arbitrage bots.

[vapid jay]

greetings everyone.

[balmy summit]

Not meaning to be so late to the party.... Think of Computer Science to Software Engineering similarly to Physics and Civil Engineering. Once builds concepts and discovers new scientific concepts while the other learns how to implement those concepts in quick patterns that allow for fast and robust development.

[vapid jay]

Can I ask for your thoughts? (Im not sure if this is the proper place) anyhow, regarding the challenge between (a.) creating a system project from scratch and (b.) you are asked to add functionality to an existing system project from somebody.

which is easier to deal?

[balmy summit]

Disclaimer, I am a dotnet (C sharp) developer, but it is all the same anywho... They both present their own challenges. What is the scope? Is adding functionality just a few buttons to a webpage with some actions to a controller that calls a web api (easy) or does it mean breaking apart an app into microervice or a micro front end? In regards to the new application, do we need authentication/authorization? Is that already developed? Are we using OIDC?

That is such a broad question, but I can say that I prefer working on projects from scratch. I enjoy them more. I am finishing up a contract that has taught me quite a bit in regards to css. It was difficult as all can be but we were able to accomplish our goals before contract end.

The latter, the project that I just completed, was an already created app.

[vapid jay]

It's an algo-trading with running backtest and running live features.
I am asked to add a Stop-loss feature of the system and the guy want it done in 4 hour time span.

[balmy summit]

I'll tell you this much.... 4 hours is unreasonable for a well written feature in most cases. What is a stop loss feature? Do you understand the business requirement already?

[vapid jay]

Is that reasonable ? the system has several scripts / components and I find it hard to grasp the logic of the system.

Stop loss is a mechanism to exit an existing trade (buy or sell) if some conditions are met like %of losses reach a certain level or the value of an indicator falls below or above certain regions, etc...

[balmy summit]

Well, if you understand the business, maybe but they should really give you a week or two to build the feature, test it, and make sure you are destroying their app and trades. Can you imagine the lawsuits if you screw that up

[vapid jay]

Im not sure if this is legal - I wish to share the code - for the sake of assessing how the coding structure of the logic is implemented.

[balmy summit]

I wouldn't do that. If you can't figure it out, I would pass on the opportunity. My two cents. Good luck!

[vapid jay]

**portion of the code.

[balmy summit]

I've worked for brokerage firms and investment banks. You don't want them to find out that you shared their code...

Plus, its unethical

[vapid jay]

yeah. I feel so.

[vapid jay]

The problem is I'm on it already. I'm basically working on it now without pay since the client has reacted and he paused the contract to my surprise at upwork when it pass beyond 4hrs - this is basically coding and testing the prototype, excluding the reading phase of the whole code (I failed to make this clear before the contract started) . I'm eager to make this a success - any suggestion?

• reading and understanding the flow - back and forth between at least 3 module component.

I mean how should you handle such scenario?

[summer roost]

It sounds to me like the client has unrealistic expectations, and you should fire them

4 hours would be a pretty short timeline for building a new feature on a codebase you're already familiar with. I agree that it's probably not enough time to come up to speed on a large project and add a new feature to it, unless the system is extremely well documented and someone has guided you towards exactly the right place to change.

[vapid jay]

suppose you want to work on this project as is (with respect to the pay) for the sake of experience, how would you approach the client?

[summer roost]

I wouldn't work for free. That's not useful experience.

[vapid jay]

thanks. I just feel relieved - I felt like I was a completely daring- noob when that guy reacted it was supposed to be 4hours max.

[summer roost]

Between you, a programmer, and your client, who isn't a programmer, you're more likely to have a reasonable understanding of the amount of effort required to make some change.

[vapid jay]

I'm just an aspiring programmer still - with a couple of personal level projects. Haven't done this kind of work before (modifying somebody's work) but I dared to accept after browsing the briefs and scanning briefly the code (I saw there were comments along the code and I'm familiar and understood the task the client was asking) my problem now is integrating the addition. Seemed to me that the logic the original creator does is very fragmented.

[summer roost]

It's possible that the project is above your level, or it's possible that the project is at your level but the time constraint is unrealistically tight. But either way, there's no point working on it for free, so it's a moot point

[vapid jay]

so, if I'm going to approach him and I'd say "I give up" - what's the most noble thing to do? shall I give a refund?

[summer roost]

I'm not sure what the etiquette on that is. I'll let someone with more freelancing experience weigh in on that.

[vapid jay]

thanks Sir - hopefully there's anyone who can give insights.

[swift veldt]

!rule 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. No spamming or unapproved advertising, including requests for paid work. Open-source projects can be shared with others in #python-general and code reviews can be asked for in a help channel.

[gaunt parcel]

what do I do after i scored 0/100 for my python exam. should i drop the course and immediately change to another?

[lucid vapor]

It's very hard to get a 0 on an exam. You should check your teacher's comments and/or ask them why you got a 0. About dropping the class, I think that if you actually care about the class and Python, then keep it and see if you can raise your grade. If not, then drop it.

[peak halo]

There's a few considerations from here. Do you need this course? Can you still get a refund? What's the best grade you can still get, and how much work will it be to get that grade? If you do get it, what will that mean for your GPA?

[vapid jay]

Guys, any advice?

[gaunt parcel]

not even kidding... any advice

[lucid vapor]

I never said you were kidding. I think you should check with your teacher about why you got a 0.

[gaunt parcel]

ohk thanks my bro

[prime jacinth]

what are things I should expect for a technical test? (5q/90min)

I'm expecting probably demonstrative abilities, as opposed to more general software questions, given the time.

[balmy summit]

That is really difficult to know, @prime jacinth. I've been though so many tests. I think it is guaranteed that they will, at some point, ask questions about different constructs in the language. You'll probably see one of two types of problems: 1) FAANG style questions where they give you a silly problem and want to see how you solve it algorithmically. Something like: You have a singly linked list but it has an extra pointer to a random node (past, future, self, or null). Write a method that will deep copy it with a space complexity O(n). 2) They will ask you to code a simple application, like a calculator. They want to see how you develop the system. Do you use tests? How do you organize code? No matter what, they usually want you to talk during the test so they can gauge how you think (unless they state otherwise)

[prime jacinth]

oh that sounds like a lot

I should probably know what O(n) is, then, eh?

[ocean ledge]

lol yes

[balmy summit]

😄

Look into buying The Algorithm Design Manual for FAANG interviews. It worked well for my amazon interview

[prime jacinth]

I can feel my brain smoothing over reading just the Wikipedia page on Analysis of algorithms.

[ember cave]

Is this only for career discussion towards python or coding in general?

[icy berry]

for python

https://i.imgur.com/l9QS2lX.png

[ember cave]

Oh alright.

I was gonna ask questions about different paths that included other languages.

What paths does python offer? I know backend, ml/ai, and apps. Is there other stuff that is main stream?

[icy berry]

web-work is quite normal

i do a lot of that

[digital fjord]

automation and testing is a big one as well

[sudden quartz]

just drop the course
if its not a time issue you just arent good at programming (at least currently)

[ember cave]

I really like python, I have dabbled with other languages and I like their syntax and stuff but I like python, does python provide good job oppertunies?

I know c#/c++ can provide game dev, also low level programming(c/c++), and other things, which python doesn't offer.

There is machine learning, but I haven't learnt data science or anything so it would confuse me.

[sudden quartz]

yes, but its a very easy and common language so you have competition from all types. Its used for the statistics side of things, automation, and scripting. Mabye some other AI.
I was going to mention something about only knowing python but you know C so youre good.

[digital fjord]

you should look at job offers in your area. Here python is practically unheard of except for the really big tech companies. Everyone else is using java/PHP. But I know there are areas where this isn't so.
Most python jobs will expect at least some other language or domain knowledge from you, just being a good python programmer generally doesn't suffice

[ember cave]

Well, I don't really know then really, just syntax and basics stuff to be able to read document and understand and dablle with stuff.

[ember cave]

I see, my town is small and full of old people-

I am going to work at a local computer shop over the summer.

It's the only one withen 40 miles from us.

[digital fjord]

remote is also an option, especially post pandemic. Your best bet is just getting to know people who can help you figure out what is actually in demand in the area as far as tech goes/know a remote position. Random people on the internet aren't very helpful in that regard

[ember cave]

Well, all I got is random people on the internet

[ember cave]

I see, I was thinking of seeing about javascript, since I like that and know a lot of it. Maybe do some front end dev or something.

I was also thinking of doing "free lancing", where I could build people projects or whatever, but I don't know anything about it.

[digital fjord]

every single small business needs a website, so you can freelance really well with JS + some backend (possibly also JS).

[ember cave]

Yeah, js is my 2nd favorite language to code in. I just worry when I get a programming job it will take my coding as a hobby to coding as a job.

Where, I don't enjoy it like I do now.

[prime jacinth]

Oh, sorry, the position I applied for is a JS developer, not python, but i figure theres some overlap

[mortal wedge]

YMMV but freelancing can be pretty brutal. I freelanced for a while and couldn't wait to just land a full time position. You have to hustle a LOT to get gigs and unless there's word of mouth because you're spectacular, you'll be spending a lot of time networking and such. That or you can use a site like upwork, but some people have posted bad things about them in this channel.

[mortal wedge]

The complexities are the same. Especially if you use a data structure like a linked list and implement it yourself instead of trying to use a regular list for that purpose, the runtime will only be marginally higher. What's more, while Python may not be the best language for competitive programming, it's still a great language for interviews.

[amber latch]

I have to make a choice between Data Science and Computer science what should i pick and why? pls i need help

hello anyone

?

[mortal wedge]

Which one interests you more? Can you tell me more about what sort of field/career you're interested in?

[amber latch]

I personally like Data science more and i want to work with companies using raw data behind the scenes but people around me are saying soumpter science is a better major

[mortal wedge]

Well, put yourself on the other side of the coin, if you had a project for a freelancer that they were unable to complete, what would you think is fair?

[mortal wedge]

Computer science is more flexible, let's say you change your mind and want to work on something else. If you major in data science and decide you want to do development work and are tired of data science, it may be harder to find a dev job.

Data science is a noble field, imo. At my company, I consider our data engineers to be some of the most valuable employees

[amber latch]

Ok, can you be a Data engineer with a Computer Science major?

[mortal wedge]

Yes

For instance, you could get a computer science major and masters in data science

[limber rampart]

If you're trying to decide between two courses at a university then I'd recommend you go through their descriptions and see which one aligns more with what you're interested in

The exact definition of what a data engineer should know may vary across universities, companies, regions, etc

[digital fjord]

also, try to talk to your upperclassmen and professors. Often, what matters more than the class itself is how good the teacher is.

[amber latch]

Ok, Thanks guys.

[limber rampart]

It's possible you'll be able to switch at some point; at my uni we had ML/CS/SE as separate courses but until halfway through the second year anyone could switch between them since the classes were almost identical

[mortal wedge]

Adding functionality to an existing system would probably be easier

[amber latch]

oh ok sorry for the question, but do you guys know how much a major in computer science will cost?

[mortal wedge]

FWIW, I've found that coding for a job can still be enjoyable/rewarding, but it is natural to experience a bit in a drop of the intrinsic reward in coding when you're getting the extrinsic reward of money. Think of coding as the fun of creating tools, then your work is just applying those tools.

[mortal wedge]

Can be cheap or expensive depending on which college, how long you'll be there, etc.

[ember cave]

Ah I see.

[amber latch]

do u have a guesstamiate for 4 yrs to a decent college

[mortal wedge]

It depends highly on location as well. In my state It's like 30k

[amber latch]

oh ok if you dont mind. Where do u live

[mortal wedge]

West Coast US

[amber latch]

oh ok. becuase rn i am in CA and want to move out

[mortal wedge]

Oh, I'm CA too. It's expensive here.

[amber latch]

yea

I am with my parents but i want to move to like florida or arizona

[mortal wedge]

Gotcha. Well, will definitely be cheaper to get a degree in those states.

[vapid jay]

YMMV?
So there is no hope in freelancing?
I thought I could use some freelancing websites to get some quick work when I'm experienced enough.
It doesn't have to pay as much as a fulltime job.I just wanted to earn something cause I'm a student (Not in computer science),so I thought I could make some earning by freelancing or something like that until I finish my studies.

[mortal wedge]

Your mileage may vary. There is some hope, but to get gigs you have to work for them. It's not something everyone expects.

That being said, if you're not trying to make a living off of it, you still might be able to pick stuff up on the side.

[vapid jay]

I'm not intending to make a living of programming. I'm planning to be a part of the opensource dev community in future,but for now I was thinking about make some quick bucks by doing some freelancing jobs.
Any idea how much can you earn in average ?

Honestly I shouldn't be thinking about earning money from a skill I haven't mastered.I just thought it would be nice if that was possible.
But freelancing or not,I'm still going learn this language until I'm proficient in it

[plush galleon]

Unfortunately you won't get anything close to an answer
You could make a living of it or not earn anything

[plush galleon]

Why do you want to learn this language in particular?

[vapid jay]

I've considered becoming an electrician, and I'm still mostly considering it, but I'm curious on how progamming careers would work, I dropped out of highschool to help my family with there business, and I plan to get a GED soon, I've heard that alot of begginer programming jobs require like a Bachelors degree for like barely above minimum wage lol, I'm bored and curious about how python works and plan to study it for awhile, and I learned I have a body condition that makes hard labor not ideal when I get older, so how would career wise I would go if I didn't do any college?

[vast shoal]

A career in software without a degree is doable, probably more so than in a lot of other skilled professions, but I'd say it's probably quite a bit harder than going the college route. What you need to do is self-teach, work on your own projects and build a portfolio that demonstrates to potential employers that you're capable to do the work. Aside from that, other helpful things include contributing to open-source projects. This will teach you how to collaborate with others on a project and resembles working professionally in a lot of ways, in terms of technologies and processes involved. Besides that, I highly recommend you to get engaged with programming communities (such as this one) online or in real life. Look for local user groups, meetups, courses, hackathons, etc.

Once you eventually land your first job, you can start building work experience, and a couple of years down the line from that, it probably won't matter much to employers whether you're a college grad or not.

Though college isn't required, it's still very time-consuming to build your knowledge on your own. If you can land a job after a year, that's unusually fast.

[sturdy shale]

I am currently an electronics engineering student from India. I want to pursue my master's in AI or Robotics. I decided that it would probably be beneficial to learn as much of python followed by machine learning, as I can, so as to increase my chances of getting in a good college, preferably in Germany. I am confused with my decision. I am not sure if I am walking the right path. any advice?