career-advice

[abstract pagoda]

Are software engineering jobs in high demand?

[twin summit]

Yes it is

[abstract pagoda]

What kind of companies hire the most?

How exclusive is FAANG?

[vapid jay]

d hires the most iirc

[abstract pagoda]

d?

[vapid jay]

deez nuts

gottem

[abstract pagoda]

ok

[vapid jay]

sorry man had to do it

[delicate bane]

[burnt wren]

Does anyone know a resource where they can have someone review their resume? I’m very interested in a certain job position and I want to make sure I get everything right, and I don’t get rejected because of something completely avoidable.

[rare sand]

!tempmute @vapid jay 72H 'deez nuts' is not the FAANG company that hires most. please don't waste people's time with troll answers in discussion channels.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @vapid jay until 2021-03-09 07:22 (2 days and 23 hours).

[rare sand]

@burnt wren people sometimes get resume reviews in here, maybe you can post an anonymized version for us to look at?

[burnt wren]

That would be awesome. Will do now.

Need to convert it to a PDF.

Hello, by the way! I heard you in the Talk Python To Me podcast lately! 😄 It's neat to hear this community's background.

[inner wren]

Hey @burnt wren!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.pdf). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[worn oracle]

is python best?

ik it helps in machine learning right?

[burnt wren]

Oops. I don't know if it's OK to answer that here since might be OT. Might be good to ask in python-general as well.

[fierce apex]

For any given problem there is likely a “better” programming language than Python (i.e something more specialized) but you can’t beat Python for being good at just about everything. Well maybe not for GUI programs 🙂

I heard somewhere “Python is not the best language for anything, but it’s the second best language for everything.”

[worn oracle]

isnt it good for machine learning??

i heard to learn machine learning python is must

[fierce apex]

Yep, it’s becoming the de facto standard for machine learning

[worn oracle]

thanks for ur help

i am just in beggining

[fierce apex]

R or Julia are other good options but Python will give you the most straightforward access to ML libraries like scikit-learn - can’t go wrong with Python for ML

[worn oracle]

okie

[fierce apex]

If you’re starting out try the Titanic tutorial on Kaggle

Great way to get a feel for basic supervised ML

[worn oracle]

umm okay

[burnt wren]

Hello, I'm very interested in a job position so I'm asking all the help I can get to make sure I don't do mistakes in my application that I could easily avoid.

I think not having "developer" or "engineering" in my official work title is tricky. 85-90% of my time at work where I am “Media Assistant”, I spend creating tools (web apps, cli apps, an excel macro, a chrome extension) to automate tasks at work. I create automated tests when I develop (TDD-ish). 10-15% of it is proofing content (the nontechnical part of the job); I do have a technical background: I have a B.Sc. degree in Computer Science and passionate about growing in the craft by reading a book or having personal projects on the side. Someone has advised to emphasize on my tech skills so hopefully people would read past the title,

Here's a resume I come up with:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/15CBwJSD-g48R7zpOCwJrOWJkIKyxkL9C/view?usp=sharing

Any help would be appreciated! The position by the way sounds like it involves a lot of API integration; it's an automation company.

By the way, if you click on the links, and found some things wanting where it lead you, I am planning to update my portfolio website to have information on the projects I listed in the resume, including screenshots and dependency graphs (so people will know where I am at with design / code architecture)! I also need to update README's on my repos. 😅

[past fossil]

why should someone learn haskell

[iron junco]

if your job requires it?

[keen dawn]

try resumeworded.com, maybe it can help you

[sterile briar]

.

hi guys

[quartz aspen]

Their coffee networking things are fine. You get some of their swag. Thermal cups are nice, and you can use some sticker to cover the GS logo XD

[quartz aspen]

I don't have time nor screen (I'm on phone) to look at your resume, but from your description you can put a non-formal job name in your experience, one that fits your tasks better.
Mention all that about developing automation tools to help with work. Mention TDD (as your usual approach, as not to suggest you do it all the time). Don't mention "automated tests" by themselves as they are useless without context and usually mean integrated tests in bigger tools when written like that. (My friend is actually learning automated testing for frontend, has experience with manual frontend testing)

[quartz aspen]

It was discussed some time ago in #internals-and-peps - imo haskell or other purely/mainly functional language helps to better understand and use functional stuff in other languages. Functional stuff can do magic~

[carmine locust]

I can second that. Did a Functional Programming in Scala online course many years ago on www.coursera.org ... never worked in Scala but it helped me immensely in Python with ListComprehensions, map/filter/reduce, using functions as first class citizen. It also made me use (and love) itertools (https://docs.python.org/3/library/itertools.html) way more often.

So for me learning something new (different language, framework, etc) is most of the time not about switching to it or using it to get a new job ... it is about getting a different/fresh perspective, learning new ways and bringing them back to Python.

I have used it for a side project with the https://www.playframework.com/ but at that time the complier was still very slow. I liked the functional concepts but not the language. It also made me use IntelliJ as IDE ... liked the refactoring possibilities if you have types.
I have Elixir/Erlang on my list for some time now ... but there was no time for now.

[daring geyser]

Hello everyone! I have made a google docs about python. It is not done, but, if you want to have a look at it, here it is. Also, feel free to make comments :)

Link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1snPrxegKyKVxCTmAiMy1HdgYGIWfKnoojnCm5Q5DtbM/edit?usp=sharing

[ocean ledge]

because it's a great language with lot of paradigms that can teach you more about lesser languages like python

[peak halo]

I found a position I was excited about applying to and it's apparently one of those applications where they want you to manually restate your entire resume

I hate that.

And they want me to state if I graduated from the university that I currently attend

sigh

[hearty island]

@quartz aspen mmmmm idk dude if I get the internship then there’s more of these coffee chats where you try to kiss up to your superiors hoping they give you a return offer

@peak halo that’s like every single internship I find

[burnt wren]

I'm hoping something more focused on software engineering resumes and positions; better yet if within the python community. Unless an engineer has found this resource helpful...

[hearty island]

@burnt wren SWE?

[burnt wren]

Thanks, that's helpful about the "automated tests" part! Re: changing the job title, someone said to me

Unfortunately, even though it might better reflect what you're doing, I think changing your job title on your CV is not a good idea - if I realised somebody had done that it would make me question other parts of the CV and experience. It would raise big red flags. You might already have taken these steps, but I would emphasise the technical stuff in the details of role, in your cover letter (this can be an opportunity to explain things like this from an unconventional resume), and/or in a few header sentences at the top of your CV.

Which is what I attempted to do in my resume. 🤞🏼 Thus, my request for reviews here.

[burnt wren]

Yup. Software* Engineering

Re: changing the*** job title, someone said to me (in case my edit wasnt obvious)

[hearty island]

Ok so what if you signed on to do something for a company

But the work you were doing was actually suited for another role

Wouldn’t you just change it to that?

[burnt wren]

When I was looking into this, it happens more often that a position morphs into something different, because you have certain skills that enables you to work more efficiently and able to think critically re: workflows and processes; management is on board and excited with what you can do yet your title stays the same. If I don't get this position I'm hoping to apply for, I'm planning to ask if I can have my title changed. I imagine it might not be an easy "yes", not necessarily even if I have the skills and actually produced a lot using those skills because the organization might not have the money to pay for the title if that makes sense. (I work for a non-profit.)

[peak halo]

If a listing wants you to have experience with Agile, and I managed a team where we didn't use Agile, should I just say that it was Agile anyway?

I'm familiar with how Agile works

[burnt wren]

No.

Is that a rhetorical question to prove the point about not changing job titles? 😆

[peak halo]

No, I'm serious. Isn't part of the game referring to as many of the buzzwords in the listing as possible?

[burnt wren]

😭 If that's the game I...I'm not fit for this. 😭

I'd think if it's true you are familiar with Agile, you can list in a heading 🤷🏻‍♀️ And talk about it in your cover letter?

[peak halo]

you know: scrums, MVP, idk?

[hearty island]

Stelercus I think you should put Agile as long as you can back it up

These buzzwords will help you get past HR

ATS for each job has a quota of buzzwords they're looking for and the more buzzwords you have the better

[trail flower]

Hello guys!, can you recomend places (groups, sites, i know about linkedin:) ) which targeted to find remote job. I was hardware engineer for long time, now i'm in DS ))). I interested in IoT as particular (that to apply not only codding but hardware experience)...

[quartz aspen]

Not a dude ;)
I don't really know how it works, I was just researching internship opportunities then. GS people talked a lot about how the newbies get trained together etc to strengthen their bonds etc but idk how it works now with the pandemic...

[hearty island]

oh I'm sorry I didn't mean to misgender you

there's some videos of this girl who did a GS internship and it's pretty interesting

[quartz aspen]

Hm. Right. I have this problem i don't really have a formal title for my position and didn't have for a thing before that, so I was actually told I can do that, lol. I have business cards (even though I don't go to clients, but the company was rebranding and everyone got ones) and on them I'm called Junior Systems Engineer. In my email signature I wrote Python Programmer (I only recently removed Junior because I realised it's weird that I've had it for over a year XD).

[quartz aspen]

I know a person who lied on their resume and then got through the interview... And actually had to learn the stuff they claimed they know.
But in general don't lie, if it's discovered during the interview, you're doomed, interviewers won't trust/believe you

[hearty island]

hm

so what do you do if you have a job gap in your resume?

[quartz aspen]

My coffee talk was actually targeted at women in tech, back when I haven't yet realised I'm neither girl nor a boy. ^^
I have (or had? I don't see any 1st level connection now) some higher GS contacts on LinkedIn from back then, Warsaw office's executive

[quartz aspen]

Do some courses and other stuff like that - if you're asked about the gap, you can say you did that

[hearty island]

so let's say I have a gap and just decided to go all out on OSS should I say that on my resume?

I'm saying if it happens

[sharp oar]

What should I do in the summer, I am currently in High School(Grade 10) and I want to take up CS for my bachelors. I know HTML CSS and JS, Python with libraires(learning dynamic coding) and I am also kida good at photoshop. So what should I do in the summer? Oh yes and I also know calculus.

[hearty island]

@peak halo your resume is one page right?

[fierce apex]

You’re wondering what to do to prepare for CS in college while you have some free time this summer?

[sharp oar]

Yep

[hearty island]

build some projects

[sharp oar]

like?

[hearty island]

!projects

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[hearty island]

like that

[sharp oar]

and in which language?

[fierce apex]

Finding an open source project to contribute to might be a good choice to learn and get some experience collaborating with others.

[sharp oar]

I mean I also kinda want to add in my resume.(collage application)

[sharp oar]

How do i find that?

[fierce apex]

Language doesn’t matter too much as the fundamental concepts apply across languages. But for CS prep you might play around with something more low level like Rust

[peak halo]

Yes

[fierce apex]

Rust because it’s the future 🙂

[sharp oar]

ok ill check that out

[fierce apex]

Do you have a GitHub account?

[sharp oar]

yes

[fierce apex]

Cool so just go to GitHub and find some Python library or other project that piques your interest and spend some time playing with it and then go through the process of submitting some small change to get started and understand the process.

[sharp oar]

Ahh ok but I was asking for somthing that I can add to my collage resume aswell

[fierce apex]

Being able to point to contributing to some open source projects would be fantastic for your college resume in my opinion

[sharp oar]

Ohh ok thanks a ton. Do you think thers anything else I can do aswell?

[fierce apex]

If you want to get a head start on the algorithmic stuff you can do things like Project Euler, leetcode, etc. Machine learning is a big area these days so doing some of the Kaggle tutorials could be a great learning experience.

[sharp oar]

yea I started those

tho i kinda got stuck on Kaggle

[fierce apex]

If you want to learn cloud computing area sign up for Azure or AWS free tier account and you can do a lot for free: write some server less functions, develop some web app that uses some cloud services, etc. That can be a lot of fun.

[sterile vault]

Best algo stuff I've seen is actually Advent of Code. Second part always gives you a curveball and you have to adapt, similar to real coding.

[fierce apex]

Nice

[sharp oar]

yea ok I will check that out too

also if I want to a build web app with a bot to help overcome depression where should I start?

[neon moat]

you start by writing one line

then write another one

[sharp oar]

yea but where

whats gonna allow me to integrate that bot

[neon moat]

i dont know the context of what ur trying to build, you have to practice and practice

even if u practice and throw code away

u are learning

[sharp oar]

So basically a chat bot that talks to ppl to help them overcome depression

[fierce apex]

https://dev.botframework.com/

[sterile vault]

Making requirements, actually.
Then you choose a framework that fits the requirements.
My first web app was FastAPI that worked inside Docker container on the local file storage, because I didn't need the frontend, and I wanted something simple.

[grizzled tundra]

I love this community

[neon moat]

yep, do some research for what u want to build and see if other people have done something similar

[sharp oar]

So can this be used with basic HTML CSS and JS?

[sterile vault]

BTW, how do I choose between Azure and AWS ecosystem? I never worked with either, but seems like a good thing to havee.

Also, easiest chatbots are Discord/Telegram, because frontend is already done for you.

[neon moat]

depends what services you want to use

AWS is great but i'm biased because i use it

but beware of vendor lock in

[sterile vault]

I actually have zero knowledge beyond memes and buzzwords, and it seems both ecosystems (and google cloud) copy off each other.
Being able to deploy lambda would be nice.

[neon moat]

lambdas are nice, but depends on your use case

[sterile vault]

Well, I had a case where I wanted to run a certain script (that pulled some APIs) on-demand with a POST request.
I didn't use lambdas back then, but it seems like a textbook application.

[fierce apex]

Azure or AWS: either one is great, doesn’t really matter.

[fierce apex]

Yep, azure functions or AWS lambdas are perfect for that kind of scenario. No need to keep a VM running all the time not doing anything.

[sterile vault]

Thanks for the input!

Btw, what are your top skills that can be learned (at basic level) within a weekend, but instantly make your more employable?
I personally vote for Docker (being able to do docker build and docker run)
Another good one is Github actions CI/CD, also simple to learn, but I haven't encountered a situation where it was really useful in practice yet.

[grizzled tundra]

I don't mean to divert the topic but do you guys know where I could learn all about backend web development and what it constitutes? I had been learning Django/flask and I got an interview where they started asking questions about Redis and then they said if I knew RabbitMQ and all that. They asked if I knew what distributed systems were. Well how do I know about what are the components of the backend?

[neon moat]

this is a nice roadmap (which takes years to cover all topics)
https://roadmap.sh/backend

[grizzled tundra]

I took a Django tutorial/book and all they talked about were the basics of web dev like servers and clients and didn't go into detail about why and where technologies like Redis are used

That roadmap looks so helpful, thanks, brother.

[fierce apex]

Pandas library - you’ll never go back to spreadsheets again and super useful / in demand skill 🙂

[sterile vault]

Hah, pandas has plenty of stuff to learn. I keep forgetting how to do even simple stuff like "map function to several rows".
Very useful, but often heavier than simply using openpyxl/gspread and handling results manually as list of lists.

Speaking of libs, requests are probably one of the top libraries, personally. It's hard to talk about them, because it feels that everybody know about it already, but tasks where you need to work with some REST API are incredibly common.

[grizzled tundra]

Thanks brother, really appreciate your reference to the material

[hearty island]

It sounds like that guy who wants to make a chatbot will require AI

and if you want AI you want machine learning

which means you should know the math before you just start throwing algorithms at the wall

[sterile vault]

The sufficiently long list of if cases is indistinquishable from AI. Clarke's Law, vol2.

[trail flower]

Sometimes Spark also take place as HPC alternative of pandas

[sterile vault]

Yeah, I've actually worked with it a bit.
Great stuff with lazy execution, but horrible overhead for datasets that fit into memory.

[fierce apex]

Spark and Pandas are both good tools to have in your tool belt but very different applications. Although I will plug Koalas library here as awesome 🙂

[sterile vault]

Unfortunately, I think most projects that require Spark knowledge tend to seek senior devs, and my situation is exception.

[fierce apex]

I get where you’re coming from but there are plenty of cool tools and frameworks to do interesting and useful things with bots without needing to understand the underlying math.

[delicate bane]

chatbot would be a good project to put on the resume

once i learn a bit more nlp, ill try it

[hearty island]

@fierce apex plenty, but math is very important

imagine an interviewer asks why you’d use a specific algorithm from sklearn and you go oh bc of a graph

😐😐😐

[alpine fiber]

Do people enjoy Python work more than C++ or JavaScript work?

[neon moat]

thats hard to get a non biased answer 😂

[alpine fiber]

I've always enjoyed Python programming far more than other languages, but I'm wondering if that holds true for careers in Python rather than simply enjoying it as a hobby.

[grizzled tundra]

I mean, it's a simple language and you get to write lesser lines of code so professionally, it might be pleasing.

[main thicket]

No one told you to change your job title on the resume but they asked for number of years of software engineering experience which isn't the same thing as asking for your title

[summer roost]

I hate JavaScript. I find it a deeply unpleasant language to use. I'm comfortable in both C++ and Python.

[main thicket]

Your career is in programming not a particular language. In most cases, people change what language they use and their career consists of more than just programming.

Python is a tool, not the career

[hearty island]

a lot of coders know multiple languages

bc the concepts can carry from language to language

[safe lava]

i work as a python dev and i enjoy python as a hobby language but really dont like working with it

[hearty island]

I just enjoy problem solving

and this is a very supportive community to help people learn

[burnt wren]

I was responding to Nicky who suggested it, (to be clear, what I meant by "change job title", is what nicky suggested "put a non-formal job name"; I don't think any one was suggesting that I put something in the resume that is not true, or I cannot back up.)

I don't have time nor screen (I'm on phone) to look at your resume, but from your description you can put a non-formal job name in your experience, one that fits your tasks better. - Nicky

[burnt wren]

"...they asked for number of years of software engineering experience which isn't the same thing as asking for your title" I also think you are mixing it up with a different question I had in the OT channel. I should have posted that question here, apologies! I saw this channel only after I posted that.

[main thicket]

Yeah I wouldn't do that unless it's pretty close as a title. Some companies run background checks

If it shows up in a background check, they can be pretty 👀👀👀

[burnt wren]

Absolutely!

[hearty island]

background checks are more like criminal history checks

[main thicket]

Not necessarily

[hearty island]

really? according to who?

[main thicket]

When I was at Microsoft, they used HireRight as the firm who ran background checks

This is what HireRight says

Employers may verify employment history as part of the employee background check to confirm the work experience you have conveyed to them and to be sure you have the professional background and appropriate work experience required for the position.

An employer will typically verify job titles, start and end dates for each job, and will sometimes check on salary and job duties. An employer may also ask for the reason for termination and whether the candidate is eligible for rehire.

[hearty island]

I'd expect that from Microsoft

[main thicket]

Microsoft isn't special, HireRight is just a single contractor with many many companies as clients

[hearty island]

well

I'm not gonna lie on my resume so I'm fine

[main thicket]

You can expect many companies to be using HireRight, or another company who also offers the same service

I mean no one was talking about you lying specifically, just the general situation of someone lying about job titles

[grizzled tundra]

What happens when you lie on your resume, though?

[hearty island]

I'm not saying you should do this but Fluke said that you can lie on your resume about your position

and then make your friend the "fake boss" of the company you worked for

but that's not gonna work well when there's services that can figure out who the actual CEO is

and their phone number

[grizzled tundra]

A buddy of mine lied on his resume about being a Java Developer with 2+ years of Industry experience and just learned it all by himself and got hired at Google. Obviously he was good at algorithms and data structures.

[hearty island]

interesting

[grizzled tundra]

Yeah that is not good

[hearty island]

I am taking a break from linked lists for now I will do more later this afternoon

[grizzled tundra]

Where are you doing your data structures from?

[hearty island]

Grokking algorithms, CLRS, Geeks 4 Geeks

cracking the coding interview

you name it I've probably seen it by now

[grizzled tundra]

Damn

[hearty island]

cracking the coding interview is more problems oriented

it doesn't have that great of explanations

CLRS has every minuscule detail but I don't like spending days trying to understand 5 lines of psuedocode

Grokking doesn't even have implementations for some data structures

[sterile vault]

And how employers treat freelance experience?

[hearty island]

not sure

[sterile vault]

While I've heard that it's treated as less valuable, having some projects under your belt should count for something.

[hearty island]

depends

how are you getting your freelance experience?

fiverr?

upwork?

those two aren't really viewed in a positive light anymore

[sterile vault]

Upwork. Yeah, a lot of stigma "cheap jobs for cheap clients"

[hearty island]

it still matters what you did

[sterile vault]

Well, to show off the projects, my resume needs to get past the garbage bin

[hearty island]

yes

so what's your best project?

if you need more projects ideas !projects

!projects

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[hearty island]

is a good place to look

[sterile vault]

Hm, the trick is that larger projects would only be finished in the future, like a parametrised data pipeline made with Pyspark that has to replace quite bunch of SQL queries.
The largest finished one is probably the script that processes the spreadsheet, does a bunch of API calls, creates the report and e-mail notifications, and everything works as a web service.
I'm currently spending most of the time with CAD scripting, but I don't know if it would fit into portfolio, since it's quite niche.

Yeah, all over the place, I need to specialise in the future.

[hearty island]

yeah big projects take a while

[sterile vault]

Since I work as a freelancer, I constantly bounce between "I'm doing cool stuff, soon I will be able to get into middle dev positions" and "I'm a stack overflow bot that still has so much more to learn to be considered even a junior".
And having objective picture of myself compared to the market is kinda important for setting a right pricetag.
Yep, money is not everything, but I like having it.

[hearty island]

dude who doesn't like money

you don't like money you must be ridiculously rich

[sterile vault]

Well, sometimes you take lower-paying job that has benefits for future career.
Yeah, internships that pay peanuts suck.

[hearty island]

dude unpaid internships

even worse

and there's also internships where you pay them

hopefully that doesn't become the new normal

can you imagine in like 2050 you have to pay companies for your hypothetical kid's internship

[lethal wharf]

Hey guys! I'm new here. I'm not close to the Discord Interface also. I'm trying to understand more about python because I'm going to do a training that could put me in a job

[sterile vault]

Imagine companies that stay afloat by luring in suckers for paid internships.

[hearty island]

not a bootcamp I hope

[lethal wharf]

No, it's not.

[hearty island]

ok good

[sterile vault]

By the way, is there something like glassdoor, but for international remote?
Since the money in, say, California and for people who lack US visa are quite different.

[hearty island]

hmmmm

idk about that

[marsh wind]

Do they have rights to check salary?

Like usually salary is something privy only to you and your employer legally

And afaik only you can disclose it to 3rd parties but not employer?

[hearty island]

I read somewhere that you shouldn't put (expert) on any language or technology in your resume

bc your definition of "expert" might wildly contrast from your interviewer's

[main thicket]

https://www.hireright.com/background-check-faq/answers/whats-in-an-employment-verification

There's no law I'm aware of of employers being forced to keep salaries secret

They only keep them on the down low to prevent people talking to each other and ask for raises and stuff

I suspect whether or not the background check firm asks for it depends on whether the client bought the service? And whether the employer actually hands it over.

[marsh wind]

Yeah it's kinda shitty. Like maybe you got lowballed on negotiation and then you can even properly know other people salary to understand that

[main thicket]

I mean you can just ask others what they're earning and then demand the same

A bit of an awkward talk depending on the culture

[marsh wind]

Yeah

[main thicket]

But it's legally protected and should be encouraged

[marsh wind]

Like, I tried to approach the topic from afar with few people I felt comfortable to do it and didn't actually get any sign that they willing to discus this stuff

So I gave up for now

[hearty island]

another no no is telling a coworker you're making more than them

if you really want to piss of HR and your boss do that

no one likes to hear that someone else who does the same work as them makes more

[main thicket]

That's why most big companies move to standardised levels pretty quickly

The total compensation can only be so high for that level, mostly based only on how well you can negotiate (mostly what other offers you have)

[hearty island]

when you're negotiating

you wouldn't give them a number right?

know the pay ranges for your area and that company

[main thicket]

You would definitely give them a number

Or at least, most people do

[marsh wind]

Uhm. Ideally you want them give it first

[hearty island]

well I've seen a lot of vids that are like don't give them a number

[marsh wind]

But not something easy to achieve

[main thicket]

Don't give them a starting number, let them decide that

Negotiate up with numbers

[marsh wind]

I failed even that 😂

[hearty island]

time to use my inner stingy Indian

[marsh wind]

I was becoming desperate though after 10 months unemployment

[main thicket]

Ideal is for them to know your worth and have invested a lot of time in hiring you (eg internship with them + recruitment process), to have performed well enough for them to like your performance already, have some inconvenience you can use as an excuse (eg require moving) and then have another competing offer from someone else

And finally if your company matches or beats that, just go back to the competing offer and ask for more

[marsh wind]

I found that it's an advice that is given all around but usually not applicable for when you are out for the first job

[main thicket]

Definitely has been applicable to me and my friends who are just graduating or have graduated

[delicate bane]

they know you are desperate so they take advantage of you

[hearty island]

https://youtu.be/T09Sa7jQY38

what the hell is up with these "open offices"?

do people just not want privacy anymore?

[near ocean]

Bullpen offices are nice imho

[hearty island]

every company wants to be like FAANG

like Amazon is a lot of glass

people can see what someone is doing 2-3 floors under them

and then they have these "game rooms" that if you use them everyone thinks you're a slacker

[jolly furnace]

lots of job descriptions advertise these "activities"

[hearty island]

forced activities do not sound fun

also

why do some of these sites hide how to filter by the time the ad has been posted?

like if I want to see all the jobs from today why'd they make it so damn hard?

[near ocean]

Cause they want you to sign up

[hearty island]

sign up to jobs that probably are long gone by now?

[near ocean]

Just sign up, i dont think they care if you apply to anything

[summer roost]

I'm a big fan of open plan offices. Moving from a job with an open plan to a job with a private office was very isolating. I found myself not getting enough social interaction (and I'm an introvert, I don't actually need that much), not enough chances to form relationships, not enough of a chance to learn what other people are working on, or to try to find opportunities to help people, etc, etc

[hearty island]

also a valid opinion to have

[summer roost]

I'd much, much rather sit next to my team than have privacy. For me, it's not even a close call.

[hearty island]

I'm an extrovert

I tend to talk a lot

[summer roost]

everyone is still working. Open offices make it easy to walk up to someone else and ask for help - or offer help, if you hear people struggling with something that you have experience with. If the noise of other people talking to you bugs you, you can always throw on headphones.

[hearty island]

interesting

[hearty island]

would you say that you should jump companies if you want big pay raises?

[summer roost]

yes.

[hearty island]

ok good then we're in agreement

[summer roost]

it's definitely much easier to get a raise by switching companies than by staying in one company.

[hearty island]

idk why my parents disagreed w me about that

[summer roost]

that differs a lot between industries, but it's definitely true in software development.

but also, depending on the company, 10% YoY raises aren't unreasonable, if you're talented.

also: remember that any year when you don't receive at least a 3% raise, you have less spending money than the previous year because of inflation.

[hearty island]

yeah

Fluke said that

[ocean ledge]

absolutely agree with this-- working from home away from my team has been a definite struggle

not even including onboarding new guys is more annoying than usual

[hearty island]

Canon's office structure was mostly cubicles

[summer roost]

I'm not a fan of cubicles, either. Less bad than private offices, but still pretty isolating.

[summer roost]

Oh my god, tell me about it.

We've got a new guy on the team, and I know we're not doing enough to make him become a part of the team, but I have no idea what else we can reasonably do.

It's really hard.

[main thicket]

Cubicles are extemely isolating and claustrophobic. I'll take open offices over it any day

The idea of cubicles is what makes a lot of people hate the idea of 9-5 office jobs

[near ocean]

I like the hustle and bustle

[ocean ledge]

i know it's not for everyone, but beers after work with coworkers was really a great team bonding experience... something lost during the pandemic

[near ocean]

Soon, tho, only a couple months left

[main thicket]

Even though Covid hasn't really been a thing here for like an year, a lot of people are permanently WFH, which makes my office so much more boring to be in

[summer roost]

We tried this once or twice, with limited success... Perhaps it's worth another shot.

[main thicket]

Going out to a bar with coworkers after work is one of life's simple joys

[ocean ledge]

it might also have been because a lot of my team lives in brooklyn, so we're all beerheads

[main thicket]

Hardly limited to eastern world. UK, Ireland, Aus, NZ have that sort of culture too

Can't say about US or Canada

But I definitely went out with coworkers after work in the US when I was there

Not to a bar but yeah

[summer roost]

It's reasonably common in cities in the US, where people commute by subway. Less common where people are more likely to commute by car.

[near ocean]

I'd think beer after work was primarily a uk thing

Fucking bars are packed at 5:30

[true harness]

uber!

[summer roost]

Yeah, 3 people deep outside the pub, heh

[near ocean]

I hate how normal early drinking is in the uk

In the summer its practically day drinking

[summer roost]

UK? Summer? doubt

[near ocean]

Its actually the only nice thing about it, sun goes down at around 22:00

But yea it could be hailing, 5:30 theres suits outside bars dodging taxis with beer in hand

[delicate bane]

good way to unwind after work

[grizzled trout]

Ugh. can anyone think of a dissertation topic in CS?

[delicate bane]

thats an extremely broad field. you should specialize

[grizzled trout]

I don't know what to specialize in though

[delicate bane]

have you taken all your general classes yet? rotate through a few labs?

usually people decide after that

find what they like, what they hate

[grizzled trout]

Yeah but I did a conversion course so Ive only been studying for a year

So I'm kind of a noob

Even though I'm doing a masters

[delicate bane]

so youre doing a thesis? a dissertation usually implies youre doing a phd

[grizzled trout]

I like security though. I thought it was the other way around?

[delicate bane]

well not here in the states

maybe where you are from

[grizzled trout]

Oh maybe you're right

Yeah a thesis then

[delicate bane]

see if you can do some research with a prof then?

usually they can help you choose a good topic

[grizzled trout]

I don't actually know any of the professors. It's all online this year

I'm not sure if collaborative work like that will work this year

[delicate bane]

understandable

[grizzled trout]

I need to find a dataset and then come up with a research hypothesis of some sort

So hard:(

[delicate bane]

my classes are also online but i feel my profs are pretty approachable

but i also think our campus is opening over the summer/fall

[main thicket]

It's your job to think of an idea, don't get others to do your work for you

[main thicket]

Go find one whose work you like, email around

[delicate bane]

i should do that but im also afraid of accepting too much on my plate

[near ocean]

I studied in the uk and they called the master thesis "dissertation"

[delicate bane]

like ik people usually choose research or internships over the summer

not both

[near ocean]

Doesnt really matter, you have to pick your own topic for a masters thesis

[grizzled trout]

I'm also UK so maybe that's why

[delicate bane]

what do they call the phd equivalent?

[main thicket]

Dissertation is a generic word, not specific to master's or PhD

[near ocean]

I think they also call it a dissertation

[main thicket]

You can use it for both

[delicate bane]

interesting. in the states, ive only heard thesis used for masters and dissertation for phd.

[near ocean]

Its just a paper you gotta write to get the degree

[delicate bane]

at least thats been my experience

[near ocean]

The difference is that masters thesis dont have to be published anywhere

[main thicket]

"PhD thesis" is the common terminology for the US

[near ocean]

Except the university library

[grizzled trout]

Usually worth 1/3 of the credits in taught Masters

And they still have to be peer reviewed in most institutions.

[summer roost]

I'm in the US, and have only heard "dissertation" for the PhD one.

[main thicket]

For reference, dissertation is a specific part of the requirement. A "thesis" is a proposed idea or argument, the "dissertation" is a document to serve as proof for your thesis

[summer roost]

One of my friends just got her second doctorate yesterday, actually - with a dissertation defense over Zoom, heh

[main thicket]

Yes, the dissertation is an event/documentation

That argues for your thesis

[grizzled trout]

Two PhD's? Is she a masochist?

[delicate bane]

maybe

[summer roost]

getting two PhDs wouldn't be my thing, but 🤷

[delicate bane]

but kudos to her

[main thicket]

There's 0 reasons to do a second PhD unless it's in a vastly different field

[delicate bane]

[main thicket]

Like CS vs English lit type different

[near ocean]

Just be famous enough that unis hand you honorary phds

[delicate bane]

what is even the point of honorary phds

just a name thing?

[summer roost]

Veterinary medicine vs ecology, or something like that.

[main thicket]

For a lot of places, they give honorary PhDs to whoever is giving the graduation ceremony talk

[delicate bane]

those can be quite different

[near ocean]

Idk why they do it tbh, just like, leave some for the rest of us

[main thicket]

Not like anyone takes an honorary doctorate seriously

[delicate bane]

yeah like i dont think people even put those on their resumes

/cvs

[grizzled trout]

I put my honorary GCSE's on my resume

[delicate bane]

speaking of

i need to redo my resume this weekend

and apply to more places

[main thicket]

I just did mine, it looks real fancy now with big technical words

[delicate bane]

oooo

[near ocean]

If youre getting honorary degrees i dont think you even need a cv anymore

You usually have a wiki page

[delicate bane]

if youre a professor, they usually make you put up a cv

just for show or something

[main thicket]

Nothing sexier than putting "piezoelectric plate signal conditioning circuit" on your resume

[delicate bane]

sounds sexy to me

[true harness]

that doesn't even make sense

[delicate bane]

does it need to

[true harness]

[grizzled trout]

Sexy > sensy

[main thicket]

Who puts a research gate on their resume, just put a Google scholar

[delicate bane]

[hearty island]

Me as a person that doesn’t drink

well I’m not gonna fit in huh

[near ocean]

Fake it till you make it

They serve more than beer at pubs

[hearty island]

ginger ale for the win

[delicate bane]

yeah its more of a socializing thing than drinking anyways

[summer roost]

getting drunk at a bar with coworkers is a bad idea, honestly.

it's for socialization, not for drinking heavily. No one will care if you get a ginger ale or coke or whatever.

[hearty island]

not everyone’s coworker is their friend

[summer roost]

nope - but you still need good working relationships.

[hearty island]

these people can sell you out to HR very easily

Also don’t talk trash about your boss to them

[summer roost]

they don't have to be people you want to see on weekends, but spending an extra hour after work talking to people once in a while is a good way to form strong relationships, and make people want to help you when you have problems, etc.

[hearty island]

my friend got fired bc a coworker showed some things he said in a gc

about the boss

[summer roost]

yeah, uh - "don't talk shit about people" is good life advice, beyond just careers

[hearty island]

Chat shit get banged

[summer roost]

that usually bites people.

[hearty island]

ala Jamie Vardy

oh you won’t get that if you don’t know football nvm

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @vivid nimbus until 2021-03-07 04:54 (9 minutes and 59 seconds) (reason: attachments rule: sent 9 attachments in 10s).

[main thicket]

Drink something else lol

[vapid jay]

anyone need a python intern?

I offer myself

[sudden quartz]

I want all the phD's

[vapid jay]

lol

all I have is

high school degree

[wheat escarp]

Anyone recommend data camp to start learning how to code more efficiently or stick with YouTube

[grizzled tundra]

Yeah that's what quite a lot of Devs do. I'm doing the same right now.

Learning stuff but pretending like I have some experience in it. But, I like learning and I'd give my 100 percent to it when I do get hired.

[grizzled tundra]

I think code academy is better at teaching programming in general if you wanna learn that kinda way with in-browser code as you go way.

Datacamp is more data science oriented. They have some courses on Python, R, SQL too for the basics.

[wheat escarp]

Thanks! Just trynna get more proficient in using Python and SQL for analytic work.

Wondering if anyone here transition their career path from finance to data analytics or data engineer. Trynna get some insight into what to do

[grizzled tundra]

Oh okay yeah if you wanna get good in analytics, datacamp is a good place to start.

[lost sinew]

Hey guys I am really into game dev and I wanted to make solo project...Could you all suggest from where I could learn...?

[grizzled tundra]

I was able to almost complete the data analyst with python track itself on datacamp but I didn't find that love for analytics anymore. Made some projects but I guess it didn't interest me that much anymore.

[sterile briar]

0

[grizzled tundra]

No idea about game dev, bro.

[gusty forge]

i wish i can apply for a job in here lol

[marsh wind]

Maybe your circumstances were different.
What was your degree? Did you do good internships along?

Cause when I said that it was about my and my friends experience specifically.

[marsh wind]

Sure but not in this channel. Pls check #❓｜how-to-get-help or #python-discussion @tulip fable

There you can get a comprehensive help

[main thicket]

I specifically did but most of my friends did average internships. The logic behind the job market shouldn't change in general

Unless you've got no leverage of any kind and the company sees you as a loss, or if the company is particularly rigid

[agile mango]

Hello everyone. New guy here.
I'm a Web Developer (custom web apps), but I started learning python and some django.
I have around 10 years of web development with PHP, and I was thinking about making a carrear change into Python.
However I'm wondering what would be the best steps to do it. I have a daily job that I cannot quit (without alternative) and I feel I don't have as much experience in Python/Django to enter the market.
Honestly I don't even know if Django is the best option for Web Applications (However I like the simplicity of the framework)
Any tips?

[marsh wind]

Yeah, I had no internships

In a way it was motivation of few good interviews but no offer cases

They said they have no doubt ib my skills but I lacked domain experience

[marsh wind]

and france is a bit weird where it comes to PhDs

[ashen elk]

how so?

[vapid jay]

what jobs can i get if i learn java

[iron junco]

java jobs

java used for web, android, desktop app dev.

[clear ridge]

What jobs can you do with python

?

Thanks @chrome hamlet i didn't think about that

ok

[trail flower]

Hello, everyone) Can me tell somebody which freelace platforms is good for working as programmer? which from these no need verification?

[sterile vault]

I think most of them require verifications. The biggest one - upwork - definitely does.
Governments are pretty stingy with their taxes.
There are probably ways to work without verification, for example, for crypto, but it would be niche by deefinities.

[alpine fiber]

Are there Python jobs outside of web and data science? Or is that like 90% of them

[clear ridge]

Hello What's good and bad about programming as a job

[vapid jay]

working all day at computer

[alpine fiber]

Good: you get to program all day! Bad: you have to program all day.

[hasty jetty]

Hi guys!!.. Does anyone have a good course on Data Science?

[alpine fiber]

Maybe try #data-science-and-ml

[vapid jay]

how can python be a language for web dev since html and css and js is for web dev?

[alpine fiber]

JS gotta talk to someone. Why not talk to a snake?

Nothing ever bad ever happened talking to snakes.

[vapid jay]

what?

i dont get it

[true harness]

he means that python can be used to create backends

[spark tapir]

python is used for back end development (see django / flask frameworks). frontend is handled by html/css/js, but you are perfectly fine in saying that you can handle the backend and frontend with js (see express.js, react).

[spark tapir]

i'd say web jobs are the majority. data science / ml is quite small (at least on the job markets I've seen).

i'd love if someone can give me an insight into that

[trail flower]

on upwork no so clearly what do with verefy if applying docs no all on english...

[delicate bane]

QA jobs

scripting jobs

[hearty island]

you would be right

one of the mods who is graduated and was in a research program is hunting for DS/ML jobs

if he's not getting scooped up by a company soon imagine how it's gonna be for us

DS/ML is really in its infancy

it's plagued by startups who think they're gonna "disrupt" the industry

[marsh wind]

Companies here are not exactly keen on hiring fresh PhD

That's how :)

Well unless it's PhD in close or related subject

[hearty island]

me with not even a PhD

well I guess I'll just go screw myself

[marsh wind]

^^^I think US is different from France in that regard

Here the mindset barely begins to shift

[hearty island]

god knows

I'm just trying to get through ds/algos

one step at a time

[delicate bane]

yeah. thats why even phd students here do internships

[marsh wind]

We can't do that here

[delicate bane]

🕯️

[hearty island]

sometimes even unpaid internships

bc they're just that desperate

[marsh wind]

That's, I believe is not allowed by law

[hearty island]

not true

not in the US

in Canda it's not allowed

but you can argue that your work is beneficial to the company so you should be compensated

but you'd need a lawyer to do that and well where's your cash at

you're not winning an argument against a company that knowingly enforced an unpaid internship they'd much rather kick you out

and then what options do you have? Whistleblowers don't really get far in corporate they basically blacklist themselves

sorry I went on a rant

I apologize

[marsh wind]

I speak of France specifically

[hearty island]

yeah I'm talking about the US

and then you have these boomers who are all like

you gen Z people are so ungrateful

[delicate bane]

[delicate bane]

phd programs dont let you do internships over there?

even over the summer break?

[marsh wind]

What summer break? 😂

On PhD I only had some vacation

Also it's the other way around

Internships are for students only not for PhDs

[delicate bane]

so over there phd students arent considered students

interesting

good to know tbh

[hearty island]

then what are PhDs even supposed to do?

[delicate bane]

research

[hearty island]

does research in France even pay?

[delicate bane]

only research

[marsh wind]

Yes I had salary

[marsh wind]

Semi students really

We had some rights and some obligations of students

[marsh wind]

Full time PhD does research full time yes

[delicate bane]

did they make you give lectures like adjuncts?

[marsh wind]

No

We can apply for some TA practice for experience and some extra 300$/month

But that's not guaranteed that you will get

[delicate bane]

interesting. over here, seems to be an abundance of TA positions

but thats bc every class needs 2-3

[hearty island]

so PhD students live paycheck to paycheck?

[marsh wind]

In US TA is main source of income for many PhDs

[hearty island]

depressing

[marsh wind]

Well it's above minimal salary

Slightly

[delicate bane]

even masters students too. if they ask me, i will say no tho

[hearty island]

that's 3600 per year

[marsh wind]

So it's not like we eat only scraps

[hearty island]

in the US it's 3600 per year

[marsh wind]

On PhD mine was 1350€/month net

Afaik min is 1100

So it's not miserable

[sudden quartz]

how do I get a phD

[delicate bane]

its the school after more school

so if you dont like school...

[hearty island]

you study yourself to death

basically

and guess what if your dissertation doesn't get accepted rip there goes your time

[marsh wind]

Masters in EU

Union

At least from what I saw

UK?

Yeah possibly... In mainland Europe I haven't seen that

3-4 I believe

[hearty island]

4 years

for my college

[vapid jay]

Is anyone here in the uk

ok

[marsh wind]

I think in France there's no Bachelor it has different name

[vapid jay]

For places like oxfors do PhD's require any former training

[vapid jay]

yh

[marsh wind]

And I believe it's 3 yrs

[ashen elk]

do you have to have a PhD to do corporate research?

[marsh wind]

Not really.

most R&D positions I saw require master or PhD

just usually they want master with more work XP

[ashen elk]

good to know

[marsh wind]

Tbh the rule of thumb is:
if you already know you don't want to pursue academic career - don't do PhD.

[ashen elk]

I guess I am still deciding 😁

[vapid jay]

i got sent an assignment for a possible coding job...i have to do a todo app...simple right? but these people set up alot of parameters and used hook....should i do it and possibly waste time? or should i just doo it?

the paramteres they set is aweful

and you can tell they only want me to do it their crazy stupid way....lliterally made todo app from super easy to hard

[shadow moss]

up to you, if you say no, likely they will remove you from further consideration

[hearty island]

hey what's the time estimate they gave for the app? like how much work do you have to do?

they maybe are asking you to do it for them bc they want to use the code you made

and they may be sending different parts of that to other people who are interviewing so they can combine all of it to create a codebase

[summer roost]

they're not; that would be stupid.

[shadow moss]

todo app is pretty common, I can't see it being reused

[shadow moss]

that happens

[hearty island]

it happens

[summer roost]

they're not giving different parts of an application to different people in the hopes of cobbling together a working system out of the parts, without knowing anything about the quality of the code that is contributed to them.

that would be so much harder than building it themselves, or outsourcing it to a single person

[shadow moss]

If it compiles, who cares

[hearty island]

it happens dude

[summer roost]

has it ever happened? probably. Does it happen often? No

[shadow moss]

that I would agree with

[hearty island]

it doesn't happen often

but it definitely happens

[summer roost]

that's about the worst way you could ever go about building a piece of software. It's a worse form of outsourcing, one where you have no legal recourse if people fail to deliver something useful.

[hearty island]

yeah it's not a good move by the company

it's a shady startup move

[summer roost]

putting together a working product is hard even when everyone working on different parts of it is able to communicate and knows how the parts are meant to fit together.

it's nearly impossible to cobble it together out of parts made by people who don't know what's up.

[hearty island]

again it still happens

[summer roost]

not enough that anyone should worry about it.

it's not a realistic fear.

[hearty island]

kek

maybe not with the companies you've seen

but with the shady startups on angellist

that assign 8 hour projects

w 2% equity

I had one I forgot the name

[summer roost]

This is not a realistic fear. I don't know how to be any clearer about that.

[hearty island]

shady startups exist dude

that's the point

[summer roost]

of course they do. But this isn't a technique used by shady startups.

Because it would be a dumb way to be shady.

it's easier to hire contractors and then refuse to pay them, instead. Or promise equity and then sell to a private equity firm. Or any number of other things that get you quality employees who actually build something useful for you.

[hearty island]

dumb shady startups exist

[summer roost]

and people have irrational fears.

[hearty island]

it's not an irrational fear

I don't really appreciate you calling my opinion an irrational fear

but whatever

[sterile vault]

Worst case they spend 15 min of HR's time by replying with tasks to applicants. Best case they save several days of dev time.
I've heard about it happening. However, I don't know how common it actually is.

[hearty island]

I see a red flag when I see startups offer equity instead of pay

[sterile vault]

And it's easier to scam a desperate junior than an actual contractor who asks for money first.

[hearty island]

yep

[sterile vault]

Giving equity for todo app looks like IT world's "draw me a thing for exposure"

[summer roost]

contractors don't ask for money up front - that's not how contracting works.

[shadow moss]

depends, fixed rate can sometimes be 50% upfront, 50% upon delivery

[summer roost]

yeah, fair enough. But it's still easier to pick a contractor that only asks for a specific hourly rate, and then refuse to pay them upon project completion.

[shadow moss]

Yep

[sterile vault]

Well, depending on definition about contractors. "Make me todo list for 100$" is still contracting, but it's very different from "make a custom accounting system for BankTrust Inc."
Freelance is usually upfront pay that is held in escrow by a platform until delivery.

And if you pay hourly, often the pay is weekly, not by milestone.

[summer roost]

yep - but if you're asking for something that someone might deliver as part of a job interview, clearly that's less than a week of work.

all I'm saying is: worrying that someone is going to steal something you built as part of a job interview and ship it to production isn't a reasonable thing to be concerned about. I'm sure it has happened, but it's hardly a common practice, and the company will certainly go on to fail anyway, because integrating a bunch of systems built by people who didn't know their systems were meant to be integrated with other systems is harder than just building them from scratch in the first place.

I can't control other people's fears, but all I can say is that I'd strongly recommend against making decisions based on such unlikely scenarios.

[sterile vault]

Well, I`d just be wary of a company that doesn't respect your time from the get go.
But beggars can't be choosers. Last time I got to a testing phase of a job, I had to do around 12 hours of domain-specific research.

[summer roost]

Well, I`d just be wary of a company that doesn't respect your time from the get go.
I agree with this sentiment 100%. That's a much more reasonable reason to be put off by a large assignment than fear that it will be shipped to prod.

[sterile vault]

They said that I was a good fit at first, but then we were Covid'd and they decided they want more experienced person who can work from home.
I think the job offer was legit and not a scam, but it still sucked.

[summer roost]

Sounds like it was probably legit. Onboarding new people isn't easy in the best of times, and it makes sense that covid may have changed the math about what what sort of skillset the person they're onboarding would need to have.

but, that still sucks.

[main thicket]

This is completely false, lots of people get hired in ML or software from PhDs in other fields. In fact I know a lot more people in ML from other fields than from ML. My Microsoft supervisor was from Aerospace eng. The other mentor there was from physics.

Companies are completely fine hiring fresh PhDs

[main thicket]

I've never seen a PhD student do an unpaid internship

[main thicket]

Also that's not necessarily true in France also. People from grandes ecoles have really strong maths backgrounds no matter what stream they took

[kindred pumice]

don't PhD students get paid some amount by their university for the research they're conducting?

iirc it's like ~$35k/year on average which is not anything mindblowing for a PhD but still a decent amount

[main thicket]

Amount depends on country, but yes. They get paid

[vapid jay]

this is an honest question but for apple software engineers, do they even use macs or do they only use linux

[main thicket]

They can use whatever OS they want as long as their OS is supported by whatever they're working on

A lot use Macs naturally

[vapid jay]

oh thx

[main thicket]

But there's people using Windows and Linux also

Same at Microsoft

Lots of people in my group there used Linux or Mac

[vapid jay]

Is a requirement for Linux knowledge compulsory

?

[main thicket]

No, but you should generally know it

[vapid jay]

Are you at microsoft

[main thicket]

I was

https://rag.gy

[vapid jay]

Oh well done

Is it hard in a sense that it takes a while

or just talent based

[summer roost]

Lots of production systems are built on Unix platforms. Knowing how Unix systems work definitely gives you more options when applying for jobs.

[main thicket]

Not really too hard if you know the process.
Step 1: have a good enough resume to be given an interview
Alternatively step 1: convince someone to give you a referral
Step 2: grind leetcode questions so you can pass the interview

[vapid jay]

ok

[main thicket]

Same thing for other big companies

[vapid jay]

thank you

[main thicket]

That's actually true, in the US a PhDs are considered studentships where you pay tuition (that may be forgone) and you earn a stipend that sometimes isn't taxable, and any TA/RA/Fellowship you get is an extra thing apart from your PhD contract.

In Europe you generally have a set salary as a PhD student that you're guaranteed (but they choose what requirements you have as a TA or RA). PhD topics are listed as open positions like jobs. They get paid like jobs and you're entitled to full job benefits.

Actually a lot of stuff said in the last 8 hours about PhDs and research is misunderstood or straight up wrong

[main thicket]

This really depends on the work in question. Lots of positions absolutely want PhDs or higher. Actually basically anything that's called a "scientist" or "researcher" is definitely a PhD or higher, even in industry. And then there's tons of PhD or higher engineering positions

[main thicket]

France definitely has bachelor's at universities. They just also have prepas/grandes ecoles system alongside that in parallel

[hearty island]

https://youtu.be/st65PYTomPc

this makes me laugh

[main thicket]

@ashen elk ^ what I said

You're very unlikely to do proper research in industry without a PhD

Any research centre worth its salt will have a PhD requirement for research roles, alongside wanting multiple publishes papers in good conferences/journals

[main thicket]

It's basically impossible to fail a dissertation. You only give it when you are ready to give it. Worst case you spend more time which might be unfunded. But most people "fail" by dropping out before.

And when you drop out of a PhD in the US past your quals, you get an automatic master's generally.

So it's still something

[main thicket]

And PhDs do research, they don't study lol

[main thicket]

It's really not, as an industry is getting mature but everyone's trying to go into it. The junior market is extremely saturated because of how much attention and acquisitions it got

It's really hard to get ML positions nowadays without a PhD + relevant experience unless it's a small company that few people apply to

Data science is basically the ML market with a different name

Most data scientists are just applied ML people

Until about a few years ago everyone at Microsoft that did ML but not in research was called a data scientist. Nowadays they're reacting to it becomint a buzzword by changing that naming to "applied scientist" while "data scientist" is more data engineering type stuff.

The whole ML job craze is really stupid

[hearty island]

bC mL iS tHe FuTuRe

SOoneR oR later ALl coDe WIlL Be aUtOmatED bY AI aNd only Ml PeOplE wIlL haVe joBs

[opaque wren]

can someone give me the youtube vids to start learning to use python?

[hearty island]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[hazy crown]

what is the best IDE can i use

[digital fjord]

ask in #editors-ides

[hearty island]

I mean you're gonna get a lot of responses and opinions to that question

[unkempt sandal]

im a senior in high school, is there anything i can do to get a head start in terms of a career?

other than learning and doing projects to showcase

[hearty island]

there's stuff you can do

[amber charm]

Is there any 'signs' that just screams Coding is not for you?
I lose motivation multiple times, i forget lotta things i learn. I know i can put more effort in but i dont know if thats normal or not

[hearty island]

If you're scared to ask questions it isn't for you

If you get really mad at being wrong it's also not for you

and if you don't like self-learning it's not for you but you can learn how to self-learn

you need a growth mindset and a "can-do attitude"

[amber charm]

I see, i guess i just need to be consistent with my learning.. More positive energy and more active learning more than passive..

Ive never been consistent with coding, ive only Just started to become semi-serious

[hearty island]

use this server to ask a lot of questions

that is what I do

[amber charm]

appreciate it, will do!

[hearty island]

yep

[vapid jay]

Nahh, this is a big company in scandinavia...they can't do that

[hearty island]

oh ok

[vapid jay]

everybody lose motivation...its about going through that motivation....like if u want to lose weight and other difficult things....you will thank yourself later for it. do the hard work now

[hearty island]

that is why I bash my head against the wall every day with linked lists

but I think I'm getting better at it

[vapid jay]

yeah, algorithms and data structures are hard, but a fundamental on computer science

[amber charm]

haha, yeah... especially through these gloomy times, very hard to stay focus!

[vapid jay]

gonna grasp concepts later because of it

[hearty island]

I stay focused bc of this server

this is my community

[alpine fiber]

Don't you have to spend a lot of time working on leetcode and studying algorithms?

[amber charm]

i appreciate this community, helped me out a ton this week!

[hearty island]

idk I'm just learning linked lists for now

going in order of the grokking algorithms book

[vapid jay]

i decided not to do the coding assignment.....i will be damned if i spend hours on this and getting a rejection

[hearty island]

I'd rather do something that involves a coding test

[vapid jay]

already seems like some bullshit

[vapid jay]

same....just give me a coding test at the interview

doing this will literally need for me to relearn react and hooks + do it within their shitty parameters....no thank you

[ocean ledge]

hot take! you'd be surprised how many people on this server would roast you about how "coding tests don't test anything, they rather have chance to show off their sKiLLz"

[vapid jay]

i do fine with coding test....even when i fail i get complimented on how i would work my way through stuff and explaination....the work from home assignment is much more intensive and gives no room for error

[hearty island]

plenty have roasted me

[main thicket]

People have too strong feelings about leetcode testing. My only strong opinion against it is when non Devs are forced to take it

[delicate bane]

[ocean ledge]

it depends on the kind of take-home assignment

[vapid jay]

non devs are forced to take leetcode?

[ocean ledge]

for data scientists, modeling assignments are fair game, because it gives me a chance to figure out how they approach problems

[main thicket]

When their job involves any amount of code yeah

Data scientists, roboticists, etc

[vapid jay]

yeah, that makes sense

[hearty island]

web devs?

web devs have to take leetcode tests too

[delicate bane]

but that makes sense

[ocean ledge]

i saw take home assignments which are basically "show us you can use flask" for backend people

[hearty island]

does it? all he "codes" in is HTML

[ocean ledge]

like, a monkey could use flask, this says nothing

[digital fjord]

you never know when you will have to implement a trie in pure JS because you can't find a good searching library

[hearty island]

yay I'm not a monkey

[delicate bane]

javascript can be extremely sophisticated

[hearty island]

[] + {} = Obj

something like that

I saw a meme about it

[digital fjord]

JS has consistent rules

the rules just end up in weirdness

[ocean ledge]

javascript is so high-level that even checking for even numbers is abstracted to a library

[delicate bane]

so in the end web developers should also do coding assignments

[vapid jay]

a web dev with a good portofolio might not have to do anything

[hearty island]

my friend had to do a coding interview

[vapid jay]

he is a web dev?

[hearty island]

yes

[vapid jay]

i am from scandinavia so things here are a little diffrent

[delicate bane]

i agree

[past fossil]

guess who's got a job at google !

[vapid jay]

damn thats major.....golden ticket right there....congratz

[hearty island]

wow amazing

[past fossil]

but now what

[hearty island]

whatever you want dude

you have the world at your fingertips

clear my private browsing history for me tho

and whatever data they collected on me

kidding

[opaque wren]

what are good packages for sublime text?

[marsh wind]

Well you can't call my experiences completely false as well as that of my peers, I didn't invent it :) we are not a balanced selection I agree, cause PhD in physics and most are non EU citizens

[marsh wind]

Well they mostly call in licence which is bachelor equivalent afaik

[past fossil]

i actually have some access to sensetive data

[marsh wind]

Idk I only did PhD in France so I don't know all details about undergrad

[past fossil]

google gives you a personality rating, we know if you are a pedo or not

shit's insane

i don't wanna work forever tho

i wAnNa SeT uP a StArT Up

[marsh wind]

Well yeah I guess that's true. Then again in job listing I usually saw PhD or Master with 3-5 years of relèvent experience

I saw few times a 'fresh phd only' requirement but that's mostly because of special taxes reduction foe hiring PhD who never worked full time position

[wheat hollow]

Ciaoo

[hearty island]

https://youtu.be/Jd_LgCK4wAg

just thought this was interesting if you wanted to be a web dev

[main thicket]

You're probably looking for a very specific field. In many fields like analogue IC design or semiconductors or computational fluid dynamics or anything fancy really you're basically required a PhD

[mellow tapir]

Weird question, does the pandas library do the same thing as excel

[delicate bane]

yes and no. also thats a question for #data-science-and-ml

[vapid jay]

hello , how i learn python iam begginer here

[hearty island]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[hearty island]

welcome to your journey in coding

[vapid jay]

hi thx

[vapid jay]

thx for the help ❤️

sry but it contains things idk @hearty island

[hearty island]

yeah that's like the whole point

[analog moss]

Hi everyone I’m new at coding never done single bit and i wanna learn python and need someone that teach me the basic of python so I can understand it a lot more as I find with YouTube lot more confusing

[hearty island]

you learn the stuff you don't know by asking questions

[hearty island]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[analog moss]

What show I do first ?

[hearty island]

automate the boring stuff w python

probably the most concise beginner's book you'll find for Python

[analog moss]

Ok thanks u

[lucid vapor]

Maybe a question for #editors-ides?

[burnt wren]

Tiny Python Projects looks pretty good too and have you do testing in every "project" it covers.

Question again! The application form for a job position has 2 open-ended questions that's meant to showcase your technical skills (how your work or approach problems) and I assume written communication skills. There is no character limit. According to Grammarly, my total reading time for answers to both questions are around 6 minutes. Is that acceptable? 👀

[main thicket]

How much is 6 minutes?

I don't know what 6 mins of reading looks like

In general, wouldn't suggest more than a paragraph or two

Be succinct as possible

[burnt wren]

I went to medium to find you a 6min read: https://medium.com/mind-cafe/7-little-things-that-can-tell-you-a-lot-about-someone

[fleet marten]

404

cut too much off the URL I'd wager

-7a5f51157c3d like that part

all their articles seem to end in unique identifiers

[burnt wren]

"Describe an API that you built that was particularly challenging for you. Where did you hit the biggest roadblocks? How did you figure it out?" I wonder given the nature of this question, it would be more than 2 paragraphs? I guess it depends on how long the paragraphs are!

sample 6minute read: https://medium.com/mind-cafe/7-little-things-that-can-tell-you-a-lot-about-someone-7a5f51157c3d

[main thicket]

A sentence about what you built and for what reason. Another sentence about what you used and what the API did in more detail. A sentence about what the biggest problem you encountered was. Another sentence how you solved it.

I built an X API to do Y task. Using Framework it did Z task, doing A, B and C. While creating X API, I encountered a situation where Y was occuring/I was unable to do Z. After some research on J/after some debugging using K/etc, I was able to do Z by doing W thing.

Once you fill it in with actual description it becomes a bit longer

[burnt wren]

Makes sense. Thanks for your help, @main thicket!

[summer roost]

That seems like way too long to me. I probably wouldn't go above a 1 minute read per question.

[lucid vapor]

I'm not experienced in this type of stuff, but no one, I repeat, no one, will want to read something so long. They won't spend more than 5 minutes on you unless you make it worth it for them. And using long answers that take them a long time to read won't do that.

[burnt wren]

🙌🏼 Thank you @summer roost and @lucid vapor ! I thought I remember seeing in their form before "to not be afraid to share geeky details" (I've been eyeing this company for years) but looking at all their application forms now, they don't have that anymore. Maybe people did end up submitting unnecessarily longer answers.

[hearty island]

companies like concision

yay concision is a word

[main thicket]

Not an English one, it's correct in French :p

English one is conciseness

Oh actually works in English too nvm

[hearty island]

oh nvm then

it's funny tho I've heard english speakers say concision before

[jolly furnace]

i havae never heard of that word

only conciseness

[hearty island]

concision sounds nicer than conciseness

imho

[delicate bane]

ive had a similar question in an interview format. its much simpler to answer verbally since its more natural and they can ask questions

[brisk fiber]

are DS/DA jobs common

[grizzled tundra]

If you're good at it, you'll get the job. The jobs are there.

[hazy charm]

Anyone here works in buy side firms? Wondering if there r roles which requires python w/o c++/java

[summer roost]

You might be able to find some quant research / data science type jobs that use only Python, perhaps

[hazy charm]

Was hoping for pure dev. Guess I better keep my java skills sharp

[summer roost]

Seems unlikely to me, then

[shadow moss]

Python is commonly used as glue language to hold parts of various things together. Java/Kotlin or C# are commonly used as main program language due to benefits of compiling, typing and other stuff. Obviously non SWE may write 90%+ Python code

[vapid jay]

lol

[marsh wind]

Well those weren't my field so I didn't look into. And if we talk about my past research fields, solid state/ ab initio there are very few places were they hire people for it industry. Interestingly I saw quite some offers of joint industry-lab PhDs though, so I suppose they mostly take people from those kind of programs directly.
Again, I was only looking in Paris region so milage may vary.

[main thicket]

The semiconductor industry is not small, it's just localised to a few places.

Paris is not one of them

The semiconductor industry exists in every single electronic device in the world, it has to be huuuge

The industry joint PhD thing while not specific to France seems to be very common in France in comparison

[slate lance]

hello

[swift veldt]

This is due to a specific contract called the Convention Industrielle de Formation Par la Recherche or CIFRE. It's basically a tri-partite contract between a company, a uni/lab and a PhD candidate. It's a 3-year fixed contract.

[indigo eagle]

I still don't understand Regex

[sterile vault]

One who claims to understand regex just saw too short regexes

[main thicket]

Interesting! Didn't know about CIFRE, although I knew of how common it was in France in comparison

[marsh wind]

yeah. I said in advance that experience concerns Paris region first and foremost. well I know my peers looked other places too and had similar experience.
Semiconductors industry is huge, no doubt

I had few convos with company called STMicroelectronics

[main thicket]

ST is great

[marsh wind]

which seems as a rather big name

[main thicket]

Love their mcus

[marsh wind]

and they had negative interest in my profiel

[swift veldt]

one of my cousins worked there and my future internship supervisor is a former ST.

Heard good things about the company.

[marsh wind]

like, when I started presenting myself with "I am from Polytechnique" his eyes lighted up but when he heard phrase "finishing PhD in lab of X" he lost all interest

[main thicket]

Because of your lab?

Or because you were finishing your PhD

[swift veldt]

ahah. French recruiters have an unhealthy relationship with school names.

[main thicket]

France in general is fucking weird with elitism. The obsession with Grandes ecoles is weird

[marsh wind]

because of PhD. He thought I am going through engineering course in X

exactly

[swift veldt]

it's especially because of the antiquated views on prépas. Less than half of student cohorts now are from CPGE tracks.

[main thicket]

My university (in Australia) offers a dual master's program with supelec and I was wondering if it'd be worth going, but then thought "they'd probs look down on me for doing ms instead of diplome d'ingenieur anyway" so I just didn't bother

[swift veldt]

In a sens, the concept of Grande Ecole is slowly being eroded in France (mostly in the Business side, though) with the creations of the Bachelor-like tracks at many Business Schools. Those cash-grabs muddles further what is and is not a post-prepa track.

[marsh wind]

with PhD in Polytechnique lab it's especially funny. It seems to open doors to interviews and starting convos because interviewers/recruiters just now that it's top school and moslty don't care what was it, but after it was kinda similar as STM story.

that's actually why in the end I mostly turned towards DS/ML and startups

because most big French names like STM, Saint Gobain and etc are just extra focused on getting "les eleves de Grande Ecole"

[swift veldt]

I dunno if you have had that feeling, Loss, but French companies and especially HR recruiters have a weird perceptions of PhD. Like PhD is a step down from a common Master's.

[main thicket]

Yikes, weird.

[marsh wind]

precisely

[main thicket]

That's definitely not the case in the rest of the world

[marsh wind]

one of my worst and most weird story was recruiter who called me (!!!) and asking about my programming experience, pretty much hung up after I said Fortran saying that they have nothing for it and ignroing me saying that picking up any language from popular stack won't be an issue

[marsh wind]

I know this starts to change now tho

there are multiple assosiation like PhD Talent or ADOC TM who are pretty much are recruiting/consulting agencies who search to closing the gap between PhDs and industry by making events and promoting a value of PhD to indtusty partners at the same time offering some job search trainings to PhDs

[swift veldt]

procéduriel is the right word. There is a lot of box-ticking made at the recruitment departments in France -- especially at large companies who outsource most of their initial 'talent acquisition'.

And yeah, it slowly changes. France has had this weird cultural perception ingrained in the 80s and 90s that anything tech would be outsourced to Asia, and especially India. And because of ingrained racism, it meant that anything tech was something lower on the "prestige podium" compared to finance or generally any managerial work.

[main thicket]

Tbh weird they want to keep PhDs and application so close given how abstract and pure prepas/grandes ecoles tend to be compared to equivalent engineering curriculums around the world

[swift veldt]

a PhD is still considered by a lot of boomers as a lab rat thing, a cop-out from entering 'real life' and the work force.

[marsh wind]

well at least they don't seem to ask anymore questions like "Why did you decide to study for 3 more years after Masters"

[swift veldt]

ahah, yeah.

[main thicket]

Should have gone to somewhere else for PhD. More respect.

Choose something like Switzerland and you'd get paid better or something like Finland so you have an excuse to get a sword

[swift veldt]

It's why CIFRE contracts are kind of thought after, because it's 'still' a professional experience

so you can put work and phd research at the same time on your resume.

[swift veldt]

the sword makes it worth it, yeah. XD

[main thicket]

Still sort of unideal, you have to deal with a company and what they want rather than what's good for your research, and sometimes you want to research something that isn't quite ready for application or isn't application based

[swift veldt]

also you get a tophat iirc.

[marsh wind]

well I had no idea about CIFRE. Plus, again, I had 2 offers for PhD, Germany and France and the subject here was matching good my interests at a time

[main thicket]

Oh yeah top hat too but mostly the sword

[marsh wind]

and at a time I was motivated for academic career 🙂

[swift veldt]

where in Germany?

[marsh wind]

some medical research insitute in Berlin

gimme a sec

[swift veldt]

Humboldt?

[marsh wind]

Mathematical Cell Physiology
Max Delbrück Center for Molecular Medicine

well prof was affiliated with Humbodlt too but actual topic and etc was in this Medical part

I had applied to many other places, including Finland, Switz, Netherlands and Denmark (they had lots of interesting stuff in Netherlands and Denamrk really) but none of them accepted me heh

[swift veldt]

mhm

X is a good school, it's the French job market that's fucked up

[marsh wind]

Well, I hope that after first experience things will go smoothee

[zinc abyss]

Can anyone advise me just completed a bootcamp in software engineering and I would like to work with Python what libraries can I learn to enhance my skills

[maiden solar]

that depends on what subject you focus on

[zinc abyss]

I was looking at focusing on retrieving and cleaning data for business decisons

[zinc abyss]

data mining, data storage, data analysis, data sharing, and data visualization. these are the key areas I am interested in.

[delicate bane]

maybe find a job in canada instead?

[marsh wind]

well I am not exactly keen on moving oversees. At least not for some years

[maiden solar]

maybe you can check what data engineers do and what software stack theyd use for that

if you think you have mastered what data engineers do and get used to their tools, you can move on to data scientist but be careful it's heavy math and statistic, programming is just a tool to help u accomplish what you gonna do with that calculation

[hearty island]

What’s a “stack”?

Is it the languages the developers use?

[maiden solar]

its basically just set of software that developers use to create complete apps/services

[delicate bane]

yet

yeah like a company's tech stack could include: python, java, aws, apache spark, docker, and some other misc. stuff

[hearty island]

Interesting

[marsh wind]

well I mean. I am 28 and working first industry job for less than 1 year. A lot can change in future 🙂

I think Canada is great, but I have my parent/grandparent living in Ukraine. Already with covid ain't easy to see them but with Canada it will be an extra barrier in terms of cost and visa

[hearty island]

Canada hmmm

[crude fern]

hey, does this server have any github repo or any open source project which i can contribute to?

[lucid vapor]

Yup! https://git.pythondiscord.com

And feel free to check out #dev-contrib

[crude fern]

nvm

[lucid vapor]

I accidentally spelled git as got. Oops

[crude fern]

yea i saw lol

[opaque wren]

who wants to make a game with me?

[hearty island]

wrong channel

[opaque wren]

which channel then?

[hearty island]

#game-development

[broken bay]

Hello, I need some assistance for an assignment for school (interview) from someone that has a career in software development. I will have to ask some questions and take notes through text.

[hearty island]

!rule 5

[inner wren]

Rules

5. Do not provide or request help on projects that may break laws, breach terms of services, be considered malicious or inappropriate. Do not help with ongoing exams. Do not provide or request solutions for graded assignments, although general guidance is okay.

[broken bay]

No its for an interview

I need to get someone to interview

[hearty island]

eh you can do it

I'm not a mod so

[broken bay]

Are you a software developer?

[hearty island]

nope just a college student

[broken bay]

Awww same