career-advice

[true harness]

he said iteration, right

[grizzled tundra]

Oh my bad

[hearty island]

I would read some books on O(N)

read CLRS if you can handle 1k pages

but I'm reading grokking algorithms

[grizzled tundra]

How do I read about all this stuff, man? Where do I read in details about things like

• which ds has faster iteration,
  -which ds is faster to sort
  And all the related Knitty gritty details?

[hearty island]

it's not loading???

[grizzled tundra]

Most tutorial don't go into that kinda depth

[hearty island]

no they don't

[true harness]

textbooks do

[hearty island]

yes they do

uhhhhh my mac goes brrrr?

[grizzled tundra]

Which one

[hearty island]

textbooks go very deep

like to the earth's core deep

[grizzled tundra]

Which one, brother?

[hearty island]

CLRS

or is it CRLS

goddamnit

[grizzled tundra]

Link please

[hearty island]

I always forget the abbreviation

[hearty island]

Introduction to Algorithms, Third Edition - EduTechLearnershttps://edutechlearners.com › download › Introduction_to...

[grizzled tundra]

Dude I feel really disheartened and disappointed in my self for not knowing that question.

[hearty island]

uhhh hang on my mac is being weird/

[true harness]

you answered "they are the same" right? the interviewer is wrong that dictionaries are faster for iteration

[hearty island]

https://edutechlearners.com/download/Introduction_to_algorithms-3rd Edition.pdf

here you go dude

don't take it personally for getting a question wrong

you can always work harder and get it right next time there's an interview

ask fn main I literally get every question wrong

you can send me a friend request and we can learn together if you want to

[hearty island]

you'll get another interview from another company I promise

[ocean ledge]

lmao most python devs are ass don't worry about it

for iteration both are effectively the same

[hearty island]

I still regret the day when I walked into the final CUNA Mutual Group Interview with only one week of ML under my belt

I didn't even know I would get that far

trying to move past that now

[ocean ledge]

what you should feel is regret for not being confident enough to say "you're wrong"

interviewers are not knowledge gods-- they are flawed as well

[hearty island]

wait

you can tell an interviewer they're wrong????

[ocean ledge]

and you would be surprised how many "experienced devs" don't know shit

[hearty island]

so if my interviewer says big O is just runtime

can I be like

well

actually no

[near ocean]

How could a py dev not know what looping over a dict is tho

[hearty island]

a bad one

a very bad one

yeah good question

the people who interviewed me for CMG were data scientists

[ocean ledge]

if its a technical interview, then yes

[hearty island]

dude I know people who made it past really hard coding screens only to miserably fail the behavioral interview

[ocean ledge]

common

[hearty island]

yep

it shows you need to practice that side too

not you specifically

just like anyone

[ocean ledge]

pop quiz: what data structure is a python list implemented as @hearty island

(assume cpython is underlying)

[hearty island]

arrays?

[mint imp]

Array

[ocean ledge]

defend your choice

[hearty island]

ok they're arrays bc every time you append or remove an element from the list it's O(n)

that's what I remember from some textbook

I think

[true harness]

list append is amortized constant

[hearty island]

I still don't get what amortized means

I know the definition

[true harness]

on average, appending takes constant time

[hearty island]

oh

F

anyways

back to Grokking I go

[true harness]

but you haven't answered the question 😔

[hearty island]

bc idk how to answer it

[ocean ledge]

maybe another question

is it a linked list?

yes/no? why

[hearty island]

I haven't even learned linked lists yet

I'm still doing big O

stuck in big O hell ig

[true harness]

you can't do big O in isolation, learn them withdata structures

[hearty island]

ok

[ocean ledge]

anyway, this is literally the first question i ask in a technical interview

[true harness]

not a linked list, because we have O(1) random access

[near ocean]

What are lists implemented in? Does anyone fail it?

[ocean ledge]

70% of people fail that question

[near ocean]

Lmao what

[ocean ledge]

though i don't expect everyone to get everything correct

[true harness]

thousands of people fail fizzbuzz every day ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[hearty island]

it's ok guys I'm still learning

maybe not rapidly but some knowledge is sinking in

I'm trying to say that I'm working on it

[near ocean]

ok

[shut geyser]

We have some senior position where a screening question is how to print smthg in python

[hearty island]

what

[shut geyser]

Some people with 20 years of xp dont pass it

[near ocean]

Wtf where can i apply

[hearty island]

you what?

[true harness]

take my resume 👀

[vapid jay]

can someone help me out

with a python thingy

rq

[hearty island]

jesus how much do they get paid???

6 figures for knowing how to print something?

[shut geyser]

It's not the only thing we look, it's just, to know which one to not invest in

[hearty island]

do senior people just forget how to code

bc they're doing gigantic big picture stuff

just curious

[shut geyser]

We dont even expect people to know about the language, but if you're not even taking time to google erh

[hearty island]

well my dad barely codes now

and he's a senior architect manager for Canon???

idk what dude even does

[shut geyser]

Probably perma meetings

[hearty island]

perma?

permanent?

[shut geyser]

Like all the time

[hearty island]

yep

that's basically it until 5

he refuses to get a company phone

bc he's like these damn bastards would call me 24/7 while I'm sleeping

Me slowly realizing I'm basically my dad

[marsh wind]

lol man gotta love this kind of books

[grizzled tundra]

You know what, you're right but how do you overcome the fear of being rejected because I questioned his intellect?

[marsh wind]

Intro into blah-bah. You open it. 1300 pages

[grizzled tundra]

I know interviewers are not gods but I gotta do something about this fear, man. Maybe I gotta have more confidence in my own knowledge

[hearty island]

oh no here comes public static void main coming to defend his beloved Bible

[hearty island]

the more interviews you do the better you are. Get a buddy to do practice interviews with!

[near ocean]

If they get salty about you questioning them in an interview imagine what they'd do when theyre writing your paycheck

[hearty island]

my mom who was a former accountant shit on me saying you should ask for a wage that's 30% higher

[grizzled tundra]

That's a good point

[hearty island]

but tbh what does she know about tech???

[grizzled tundra]

Yeah, I think I gotta do that for sure.

[ocean ledge]

if you can't question his knowledge now, you really think you suddenly can when you're working with them?

[hearty island]

fight the power

[ocean ledge]

no, it has nothing to do with that

[hearty island]

it was a joke

a bad joke

[ocean ledge]

people are hiring for teammates-- a rational person would want someone that can supplement them, and if they can fix the gaps in our knowledge, the better for it

[hearty island]

oh well someone else on this server said to not correct your interviewer

but I'll take your word over theirs bc they're not employed

[ocean ledge]

that person probably never interviewed someone

[hearty island]

I mean

[ocean ledge]

generally teams don't hire unless they need help

[hearty island]

if you can correct your interviewer

that means you must know something

[ocean ledge]

yes

i would see that as good signal

[hearty island]

so if they say big O is just runtime of an algorithm

what do you say back?

this is just an example

[ocean ledge]

"big o can also be used for memory costs of an algorithm"

[hearty island]

Ok

[ocean ledge]

"for example, clojure persistent vector tries have amortized constant runtime for all ops, but the tradeoff is O(n) memory"

that would be sufficient

or if you want to be pedantic about big o

"big o is a general notation for any form of asymptotic growth-- an example is in computations involving taylor series expansions"

[hearty island]

uhhh

do you really wanna be pedantic to an interviewer?

[near ocean]

Yes

[ocean ledge]

sure

[hearty island]

detail-oriented

something like that

[ocean ledge]

i dunno, i don't have that many yoe but whenever i interview someone i generally like it when someone gives additional context

[shut geyser]

Who wanna work with someone pedantic tho

[hearty island]

I'm not a pedantic person

I'm more big picture

I don't care about every tiny minute detail

[ocean ledge]

i think i definitely used the wrong word there-- i mean someone who cares somewhat about details

i do not intend to the point of being annoying

[shut geyser]

Alright

[hearty island]

I'm learning binary search w arrays yayy

[marsh wind]

about this, it's array of pointers no?

[ocean ledge]

yup

hence why it can store heterogenous types

[true harness]

of py objects

[clear creek]

weird question, anyone in the industry, can you take a quick look at my resume and give advice? (college student applying for internships)

[vapid jay]

what're good careers for coding (40-120k)

/ hacking i alr know a lot

[ocean ledge]

post your github

[ocean ledge]

wheres that guy who did sql queries all day and got paid 9.25 an hour

your gotta hustle for that 40k

[mint imp]

I have completed 5 hrs in a 11hr Python tutorial

[hearty island]

why are you doing that to yourself?

just curious

[delicate bane]

talk about underpaid

[hearty island]

you're in Sweden right? or the US?

can you please stop? You've done this in multiple channels

[marsh wind]

it;s OK to post it here but usual advice is to not dox yourself, so remove any sensitive data you don't want floating in internet 🙂

[hearty island]

just remove your name, college, and places you have worked at

[vapid jay]

Hello

im new

I was thinking of making a game

[hearty island]

wrong channel

[ocean ledge]

i'm in nyc, but i think he also was american

i don't know anything about swedish pay

only their fish

[hearty island]

why did I think you were swedish

may have confused you w another user

what I was saying is that 40K a year is not enough to survive in NYC

it's gonna be tough

[ocean ledge]

i'm pretty sure he's not in a big city

[hearty island]

or NY in general

[ocean ledge]

maybe alabama or something

[hearty island]

i mean

the average alabama wage for SWE is 90k

[ocean ledge]

where 9.25 an hour puts you in the top 10%

[hearty island]

idk dude

careerexplorer says different

[ocean ledge]

i'm joking

just being mean to alabamans

[hearty island]

is that the term for alabama peeps?

[true harness]

"people from alabama"

[hearty island]

Alabamans

it's actually alabamans

[delicate bane]

[tough field]

hi guys

[hearty island]

hey what's up

[pastel tendon]

Hola

[hearty island]

whoms't

JP Morgan just emailed me bc they found my resume?

my resume doesn't have anything remotely SWE related what

[near ocean]

Happens some times

I get emails about bioinformatics and biology jobs some times

I think its cause my gf looks them up, idk

[hearty island]

I mean it is kind of fitting that I'm getting SWE stuff since I'm doing so much algos/DS

[modest panther]

Algorithms are great for improving your logic in life

[hearty island]

yep

[toxic locust]

JPM is on a huge tech recruiting spree right now

[hearty island]

nice

I actually don't think I'm ready for interviews yet

once I know algos/DS inside out

then i'll apply

[toxic locust]

yeah, be warned I don't know what languages they use in house, but I expect they're somewhat agnostic for applicants

[hearty island]

what does that mean?

people throw that term around a lot I don't get what it means

[toxic locust]

It means that when they interview you they're not super worried if you've got a lot of experience with the languages they use, just that you'd be able to become an effective programmer

so if you go into the interview and do it in Python, they won't bat an eye, but the job itself might involve zero python

[hearty island]

I mean if you know Python well you can learn any language

the basics are always gonna carry through any language you learn

[dry sapphire]

well

not fully IMO

because of different levels/types of abstraction

e.g. Python <-> JS is a lot easier than C++ <-> Haskell

[hearty island]

by basics I mean like functions and variables and stuff

the syntax will be different

[dry sapphire]

what is "and stuff"?

Haskell doesn't even have loops

[hearty island]

oh mb idk about Haskall

guess I'm wrong then

[dry sapphire]

very, very few things are common to all languages

[hearty island]

are functions common to Haskall?

[dry sapphire]

yes

[hearty island]

but not for loops????

[dry sapphire]

I think almost all languages have functions

[hearty island]

so how do you iterate through data structures in Haskall?

[dry sapphire]

recursion

it's Haskell btw

[hearty island]

yet another thing I don't know

[dry sapphire]

in general recursion is favoured in FP languages

I mean

not totally wrong

[hearty island]

I mean I know recursion

[dry sapphire]

I would say that problem-solving ability is important

[hearty island]

"know" recursion as in seen it in code like twice

[dry sapphire]

and is transferable across languages

[hearty island]

yes

[dry sapphire]

but sometimes two languages have such different paradigms that carryover is limited

[hearty island]

dude I swear

I need books on learning how to learn

[ashen elk]

you don't need to know all languages - specializing in one or 2 specific to your field helps

[hearty island]

never said that you did need to know them all

[near ocean]

Specializing is an easy way to make yourself obsolete

[ashen elk]

wow

[hearty island]

obsolete as in what if it's not used anymore?

[ashen elk]

are you being serious?

I cant tell

[hearty island]

who are you talking to?

[ashen elk]

mariosis

[hearty island]

oh ok

[near ocean]

How is it a joke

[digital fjord]

you do need to keep up with how your domain is changing, but you generally shouldn't be a master of none

[ashen elk]

Specializing is an easy way to make yourself obsolete
I just wish I could frame that lol 😆

[near ocean]

ok?

[ashen elk]

are you saying that any specialists in the field are obsolete?

[dry sapphire]

well

[ashen elk]

that's an insult to so many people

[dry sapphire]

it depends on the degree of specialisation and the specialisation itself...?

but I would, in general, disagree

[ashen elk]

true

[near ocean]

If you specialise and your niche collapses youre fucked

[hearty island]

he's right

[dry sapphire]

also specialisation doesn't imply incompetence outside your area of specialisation

[ashen elk]

👀

^

[digital fjord]

if you don't specialise, you will never get anything useful done since there will be specialists in every field who are just kind of better

[near ocean]

It also doesnt mean you can make lateral moves in your career

[dry sapphire]

I would say that the problem there is not specialisation, but inflexibility

which aren't the same thing

[ashen elk]

true. There is a reason why so many people take PHd's - for one, it buys companies instant credibility saying a PHD is working on the project

[near ocean]

I would say theres some correlation

[golden tundra]

Not necessarily? I feel like most specialties are at least related to other things

[near ocean]

Everything is related to everything else

[dry sapphire]

some

but I would think the vast majority of specialists are neither deep enough nor focused enough to face problems

[golden tundra]

So like
If you specialize in fair AI and that collapses
You might be able to move to another part of AI

[near ocean]

I still would say being a generalist is the best

[golden tundra]

Like, I dunno, natural language processing

[digital fjord]

like, will python eventually die and all my experience with it will become useless? Yes. Does that stop me from learning a new language sometime during its demise? No

[golden tundra]

It’s basically impossible to not specialize at all

[digital fjord]

being a generalist doesn't let you advance any field

[golden tundra]

I’m more of a Java specialist, for instance

[ashen elk]

well, then your chances of being hired goes down, since you don't know your domain deeply

[golden tundra]

So I can call out weird Java quirks

[ashen elk]

it appears you only meddled in some areas

[digital fjord]

yes, if you just write code for the fun writing code, you can be a generalist and just do whatever

[dry sapphire]

I think

we have different definitions of "specialist"

[digital fjord]

but a lot of the cool stuff in programming is hidden behind a lot of effort and learning

[dry sapphire]

did you mean: monads

[ashen elk]

libraries

[digital fjord]

monads aren't hidden cool stuff

[dry sapphire]

oh

😔

[digital fjord]

that would be more like dependently typed effect checked monads

[dry sapphire]

I think monads are already p esoteric to the majority of people

[digital fjord]

ye, but they don't require you to specialize in haskell to know them

you can get a workable understanding in anywhere between a few hours and a month depending on how good you are at set theory

[dry sapphire]

fair enough

[ocean ledge]

so like all of java?

[ocean ledge]

too many people teach monads without teaching about effects

which makes it more esoteric than it really is

[ocean ledge]

its not really that binary-- you can be a generalist in spirit while having a focused specialization

like, i can be pretty general in the ml space but i'm more specialized on bayesian and variational methods

[ocean ledge]

at the same time... learn as many languages as you can. have a core language but know the paradigms for 5-6 more of different types

[ashen elk]

why exactly?

If someone does ML, that doesn't mean they should learn C++ or Java

[ocean ledge]

why? ML engineers regularly have to implement new loss functions that aren't in a standard package

want to use tweedie deviance on gpus with catboost? gotta write a cuda kernel

[ashen elk]

nah

[ocean ledge]

use spark? need an optimized udf? serialization to python objects are slow, so scala has native support

[dry sapphire]

a lot of answers/tutorials are just 🥴

[ocean ledge]

don't worry bro, they're just burritos

[ashen elk]

To implement loss functions firstly depends on the framework. And they can be done in python by leveraging some of the framework utilities

[dry sapphire]

me_irl 2 years ago

I found a bug in Spark, incidentally

back then

[ocean ledge]

most of my bugs come from pyarrow :(

[ocean ledge]

you haven't used many of these libraries, have you

[ashen elk]

only TF - I dunno about PyTorch

And I have never seen a loss function implemented in CUDA

Why would you implement a loss function In CUDA? the amount of code you would have to write to carry tensors would be oof between the framework

either you do the whole thing in CUDA or the whole thing in some framework (PyTorch or TF)

[ocean ledge]

who said anythint about tensors? i said catboost

gbms bruh

[alpine karma]

Highest paying jobs?

[late steeple]

What are the required skills for a QA automation developer? And is Python enough?

[gaunt sparrow]

I'd imagine that'd depend on the company

[muted violet]

i doubt it

[gaunt sparrow]

I think generally QA automation connotes blackbox / functional testing

python is pretty versatile and they may only delegate tasks to their QA automation team that can be done with Python

[late steeple]

I have been thinking about giving that field a shot but I am a bit confused about what are the things I should know before I apply for any job

Well the thing is that I am pretty generalized so when it comes to Finding a role in a company I feel pretty lost. It is much easier to work as a freelancer but I want to work in a company

[hearty island]

depends on what flavor of CS you want

[late steeple]

Do you have a couple of examples ? Do you mean like web dev and etc ?

[hearty island]

sure so

if you're doing SWE

the companies love asking leetcode questions

so you should really know your DS/algos

[late steeple]

SWE = Software engineering ?

[hearty island]

yep

[late steeple]

and DS is Data science? xD

[hearty island]

no DS is data structures

[late steeple]

Oh

[hearty island]

I'm trying to say you should know your data structures/algorithms if you are trying to get a SWE job

[late steeple]

I have been hearing things about SWEs but I am not quite sure about their responsibilities

[hearty island]

hmmmm

tbh idek what they do

SWE is an umbrella term

[late steeple]

This explains a lot

Do you think applying as an intern would benefit me in case I don't have the best experience in a specific field ?

Instead of developing personal apps for a year or two just to meet the requirements :|

[hearty island]

you should apply for internships

but only do paid ones

don't work for free

[late steeple]

So for the meantime I should be focusing on DS/algos

[hearty island]

well

do you know the basics?

[late steeple]

Nope, Honestly

[graceful shuttle]

@late steeple I do software engineering, but it's not my job title

[late steeple]

When I tried to implement linked lists
There was no need for it in Python

[late steeple]

What is your job title ?

[graceful shuttle]

It's just a fluffy internal title

Doesn't mean much outside the organization I work for

[late steeple]

Oh

What do you think about the responsibilities of a SE in a company ?

[graceful shuttle]

I would recommend avoiding such jobs if you can, they can be hit or miss

My day is usually split between multiple areas. Some design, some maintenance, and some coding

[sterile vault]

Graphs and graph-based stuff (like breadth-first search) are surprisingly useful in projects I've encountered and the support of them in Python is pretty barebones.

[graceful shuttle]

If you want to do software engineering, it's very beneficial to have the strong DS/algo skills as others have mentioned

[delicate bane]

what kind of SE do you want to do? its a pretty broad field

[late steeple]

I see ..

Well, Nothing specific
I am still not specialized in anything :(

[graceful shuttle]

Specialization takes time

[late steeple]

Well, I am pretty good at automating if it counts

I started building protocols and client sides

And yeah a lot of different things
And i don't know what i want to specialise in

I tried Data analysis too

For a couple of months

[graceful shuttle]

When you're starting out, it helps to cover broad areas. Focus on building transferable skills like good communication and problem solving. If you can communicate clearly that's worth a lot in an office environment

[late steeple]

I am glad you mention that
I am a little introvert xD

I am sorry I will be right back soon

[graceful shuttle]

For technical skills, it can be good to learn one programming language really well (like Python), and then build on that. Use that language to build something simple like a CLI app. Embed it in a webserver. Learn how to give it a skin. Connect it with other services. And give it a database. At that point, you've basically covered a three-tier webapp stack

[delicate bane]

have you looked into data engineering. add that to the list to explore maybe?

[late steeple]

@graceful shuttle
I think I am have quite acceptable experience in Python, My problem is finding a field to stick in :(

@delicate bane
I never heard of it. I am glad you mentioned it and I will probably read about it soon
If you have more suggestions tell me-

I don't find myself in any database arrangements :(

[hearty island]

@late steeple might wanna look into project manager roles too

[late steeple]

Omw

Project managers don't actually make anything. They don't write code. They don't make graphics. They don't sell the software

Is that true?

[wheat escarp]

Has anyone used datacamp before to get to learn more about coding. Trying to transition into either Data Analytics or Data Engineer path

[hearty island]

@late steeple they help manage entire codebases

[wispy cape]

They do the planning and management of the people on the project, not all are equal, some may try to micromanage everyone, others may want to emphasize that engineers and technicians have a say in it, etc
It is not their role to produce code or sell stuff, they're not engineers nor product owners

[graceful shuttle]

A good manager removes barricades and makes it easy to actually get things done

[drifting iron]

any cybersecurity specialists around? im still pretty infant to coding and life in general but i thought it wouldnt hurt to strive for a career I would like to have in the future and get some advice in the meantime

[slim violet]

@drifting iron think about wether you are a strategist or a tactical/technical person the most. A lot of people see coding as "the way" initially, but later ends up as CISO, that likely involves no coding.

[drifting iron]

well it depends which way you put it. Personally i have always been more theory based rather than learning from doing. I find efficiency in both but I like theory more than practicality to be completely honest. @slim violet

[solar quest]

Hello

[swift nymph]

Hi, so Im and economics major currently but and Im planning to enroll to a masters in Marketing Analytics and Data Science in the future (still 3 years from no), is this a good industry to try to get into? if so, for Data science are there any online resources that teaches the math and stats needed?

im already using a certain website for the programming bit, but I would also like to learn the Math and stat part

[peak halo]

@swift nymph you'll need to know stats and linear algebra

[hearty island]

discrete maths too

and calculus

[craggy elm]

how do you guys deal with coworkers who try to use you as a crutch instead of putting effort into learning?

it seems that every task he is given that requires a modicum of thought, he basically asks me to do it for him, and he resists when i tell him to figure out bit-sized portions of the task on his own

[austere nexus]

ヽ((◎д◎))ゝ

[hearty island]

I would start w statistics I found a book for practical statistics in machine learning

[austere nexus]

¯_༼ᴼل͜ᴼ༽_/¯

[hearty island]

@craggy elm you tell him that thinking independently will make him a better coder

[austere nexus]

ರ_ರ

[hearty island]

@austere nexus can you please stop?

[craggy elm]

i've already hammered that numerous times lol

[hearty island]

idk then tell him only ask you as a last resort

if he can’t figure it out himself

[craggy elm]

yeah that's the problem

he just gives up

[austere nexus]

(づ｡◕‿‿◕｡)づ

Of course kind man

[hearty island]

well if he gives up that easily I don’t think CS is for him

or he has the wrong attitude

could be both

[austere nexus]

I am coder

[hearty island]

What genre of CS is this @craggy elm

[craggy elm]

it's data engineering

ton of sql, some python, some data analysis

[hearty island]

why don’t you tell him to read some books in python w data science

not the extremely long ones but the shorter ones

what is he asking for help mostly?

just give him the lecture that goes like oh in CS you’re always learning new things so you have to keep up that grind

[craggy elm]

pretty much "how do i get X via sql?" or "how do i verify Y?" or "how do i determine the root cause of a problem?"

[hearty island]

how do you determine the root cause of a problem?????

[craggy elm]

im pretty much the new guy who knows newer tech, and part of what i do is transitioning from old, bad, gross excel "databases" to eventually using databricks in azure

[hearty island]

By looking at the error message and googling it? By looking at the code??

[craggy elm]

nah, that's more the data analysis part

[hearty island]

It sounds like he needs to beef up his SQL

[stable fox]

Hey peeps

[hearty island]

hackerrank has some really good problems for that

[stable fox]

Does any know how future in ML looks like?

[craggy elm]

i've recommended some docs, but idk if he actively reads them

[hearty island]

@craggy elm https://youtu.be/vaD3ZFFNwhM

https://youtu.be/Td-cmLfQ7uU

She taught herself SQL in 11 days

your co worker has got to work harder than that

[craggy elm]

i'll save those lol thanks

[hearty island]

Yeah any time

[craggy elm]

yeah i know

i've been time blocking myself lol

[stable fox]

could u help me too pls

[hearty island]

What’s up?

[stable fox]

do u think getting started with ML is a good idea

[craggy elm]

depends on what you want to do, honestly

[stable fox]

i mean to learn and possibly go into ML career

[stable fox]

im not sure

[hearty island]

Do you know the basics of python?

[stable fox]

ya

[hearty island]

Ok do you know statistics, calculus, linear algebra, and discrete maths?

[craggy elm]

do you want to make neural networks, where you give 0 fucks about explainability?

do you want to make explainable ML models?

hard to give any direction if you dont know what you want to do

[stable fox]

a little

[hearty island]

I would know more than just a little

[stable fox]

oh thats great!

[hearty island]

if all you can explain when you use sklearn is I used the sklearn library for this algorithm and it worked

you’re not getting hired any time soon

you gotta know it inside out

[craggy elm]

try reading more about ANOVA and stats

[hearty island]

Also

[craggy elm]

if you really want to

[hearty island]

Don’t dive into using algorithms for data science

[craggy elm]

MANOVA is good too

[hearty island]

If you don’t know DS/algos

it’s not a fun time

speaking from prior experience

like the guys you end up working w want to know if you know your data structures inside and out

[stable fox]

i mean i wanna do something revolutionary:) can u tell me all the sub topics it has

[hearty island]

all????

google exists for a reason lmao

[stable fox]

i love maths

[stable fox]

what is it?

[hearty island]

data structures?

[stable fox]

what is it

[craggy elm]

well, you cant do anything revolutionary and explain it if you dont know basics

[hearty island]

stuff you store things in memory w

[stable fox]

ya but its also quite overwhelming

[hearty island]

I know

But you gotta push through

I would recommend two books for data structures and algos

Grokking algorithms which explains everything in layman terms w illustrations and real world examples

[stable fox]

ya so can u guys give me a list of things to learn

[craggy elm]

look for some stats textbooks, honestly. the one i took in undergrad is def not recommended lol

[hearty island]

and CLRS which is 1k pages long which you can use as a reference

[stable fox]

i will definetly check it !

[hearty island]

yep

[stable fox]

lol

[stable fox]

omg

[hearty island]

and if you're doing stats I would look at practical stats of machine learning

it looks good

it's by a company I like a lot

[stable fox]

k

[craggy elm]

yeah that's a good point lol look up applied statistics. pure stats is a bit gross if you're not that into math

[stable fox]

wait can u guys tell me some stuff that i can do with ML

[hearty island]

facial recognition

[craggy elm]

optical character recognition

linear regression

nonlinear regression

[stable fox]

what is it exactly?

[craggy elm]

in short, creating a linear model for something

wiki will do better justice than i will lol

[hearty island]

yeah what he said

also learning the math will make it easier to figure out what algorithm you want to use

and how you want to adjust the hyperparamaters

[stable fox]

ya

can i sell some ML algos i made?

i mean if i make em

do u guys know the best course to get started in ML

but its too old

ya true

maybe not thousands tho

what do u code?

[hearty island]

that is actually the best machine learning course

but it also requires you to know statistics, lin algebra, calculus, and discrete maths like the back of your hand

and also you should know SQL too

[stable fox]

how deep

[hearty island]

pretty deep

[stable fox]

fundamentals or deep

[hearty island]

like it'll ask you to write algorithms by hand

[hearty island]

deep

[stable fox]

like when are those topics taught?in high school or later?

[hearty island]

algorithms?

not till you hit college

and my college taught it like shit

actually 3/4 of my class dropped out before we even hit algos lol

[stable fox]

oh do they take long time to learn

[stable fox]

lmao

[hearty island]

you need the right resources

for example

some people just try to read CLRS cover to cover

and then they miserably fail

and then they're like oh well I guess CS is not for me

[velvet hazel]

how i start to program

[hearty island]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[stable fox]

what is it?

[hearty island]

CLRS is a textbook about DS/algos

[stable fox]

is it bad or hard?

[ashen elk]

why?

[hearty island]

bc it's used in data science?

[ashen elk]

Assuming that's referring to ML

[ashen elk]

no - that doesn't mean you have to learn sql

[hearty island]

ok mr industry professional

where's your job in DS/ML?

[ashen elk]

data science doesn't mean that you have to use something that is used for some other task

[hearty island]

you need SQL

[ashen elk]

MongoDB, pandas there are so many that are actually used

[hearty island]

SQL is important whether you like it or not lmao

[ashen elk]

they can learn SQL, only if they have a ton of free time. Very few companies require sql because their infra is old

[hearty island]

yeah?

[timber tide]

I think a lot of companies use SQL

[wooden falcon]

I m pretty sure most companies use MySQL. MongoDB is newer I believe. Even then, having SQL knowledge is very important.

[hearty island]

do you even work in the industry?

[ashen elk]

About data structures, for beginners it good to cover the basics (stacks, heaps, deque, tuples, lists and so on). but doing stuff like binary trees isn't that much required

[timber tide]

And it's not old...

[hearty island]

do you even have any first hand knowledge to back this up?

[ashen elk]

unless you are into traditional ML

[hearty island]

bc it seems like you're just being a smart ass lmao

[ashen elk]

well, I don't ask you producing your certificate in FAANG 🤷

[hearty island]

you don't have shit

lmao

[ashen elk]

ofc I dont - but so dont you

[hearty island]

anyways bye

[timber tide]

Start ups use MongoDB and then realize that there are simply some things you can't optimally do in a document store database and switch back to SQL.

[hearty island]

that doesn't mean you blatantly say incorrect stuff

[ashen elk]

my man, Its just my opinion. you have no right to correct me unless you are an expert yourself. if someone more qualified than you corrects me, I have no issues

that doesn't mean you blatantly say incorrect stuff

who are you to judge?

[wooden falcon]

I mostly use postgreSQL and sqlite for my projects. Never tried Mongo. Have u used it in ur projects? What are the disadvantages that u have noticed?

[timber tide]

Data scientists in my experience can be tasked the job of writing a large SQL query to produce some meaningful data. Examples like determining engagement from analytics from some website.

[stable fox]

chill dudes

[ashen elk]

I believe a lot of companies use more newer tools (like kubernets, scala and mongo) because it sits well with GCP

[digital fjord]

@ashen elk a heap is a more special binary tree.

[ashen elk]

GCP has internal stuff and services that are very much integrated which are helpful with companies which already use them

[timber tide]

I usually use SQLite3. I enjoy it quite, and it certainly probably has a different use case than MySQL or PostgreSQL, either way learning SQL is probably beneficial if you're planning to be a data scientist.

[stable fox]

guys when should i learn libraries like tensor flow or pytorch?along with ml course or after it?

[delicate bane]

every 4th listing i look at has SQL under technical skills

every other has python/R

[timber tide]

Even project managers can be expected to know SQL.

[hearty island]

project managers get a lot of hate but they do a lot of work

[wooden falcon]

True. I m also learning ML. Still a beginner though. Too much maths tbh.

[wooden falcon]

Start with Scikit-learn. Thats more than enough for beginners. TensorFlow is used for neural networks which is quite complex. I m learning that rn. You need to know the basics first though.

[stable fox]

oh thnx

[stable fox]

how long have u been learning ML?

[hearty island]

don't just learn sklearn without knowing the math behind the field

[craggy elm]

you can learn how to use pytorch and tf, but if you have no idea what you're doing, then it's all a bit meaningless

[wooden falcon]

Few months, I havent been regular on my studies though. The maths is quite complex. I need to take a break after learning each algo...lol

[hearty island]

you will end up in an interview they'll ask why you used an algorithm and you'll be like ummmmm bc it's there?

[stable fox]

lmao

[hearty island]

yeah that's not fun

[wooden falcon]

True. The Stanford ML course explains the maths behind each algo which is cool but kinda headache inducing tbh.

[stable fox]

so maths then algo and then tf or pytorch right?

[stable fox]

well let me start me dude dont scare me off lmao

[hearty island]

math

then algos

yes

[wooden falcon]

Start with the Stanford ML course from coursera. And look up the maths if you dont understand anything. Each week has a programming quiz so that helps you in using the algo IRL.

[hearty island]

or you can learn the math beforehand

[stable fox]

but what algos ? do courses teach them?

[hearty island]

yes that stanford course RogueOne is recommending teaches them

[stable fox]

k

[hearty island]

but I would learn algos/DS first

before you just delve into machine learning algorithms

[ashen elk]

tries to learn maths beforehand:

[stable fox]

so how long does it take me to say i good at ML if i spend 2 hrs a day

[wooden falcon]

I have this bookmarked. Dont know if its good or not. Its says its about the maths used in ML
https://www.coursera.org/specializations/mathematics-machine-learning

[stable fox]

lmao

[hearty island]

yeah you gotta work for it

#data-science-and-ml is here for questions if you have any

[stable fox]

oh i didnt know they had this!

[hearty island]

and there's a math server too if you need help w the questions

don't hire tutors to teach you math

a controversial opinion

[stable fox]

ya figuring everything is the best way to learn

[hearty island]

yep

[stable fox]

how long will it take to complete those courses

[hearty island]

maybe a month or two?

[stable fox]

oh thats longer than i expected!

[hearty island]

yeah these courses are pretty chonky

[stable fox]

can i complete in 2 months if i spend 2 - 3hrs a day

[hearty island]

that's really up to the learner

my friend did it in 2 months

but he still doesn't know anything

[peak halo]

If a job says I need an active security clearance (in the US), but there's no reason I wouldn't be able to obtain a security clearance, does that mean that they don't want to go through the process of obtaining that clearance for me and I shouldn't apply?

[stable fox]

ya but they also learn other stuff

[hearty island]

I would apply anyways and negotiate w them if you get the interview

[ashen elk]

cool

[peak halo]

do you have personal experience with jobs that require a security clearance?

[ashen elk]

are you applying to CIA or something?

[peak halo]

this is the DC area, so pretty much every job requires one.

[hearty island]

not really I was just going off common sense

sorry

[ashen elk]

ahh, I would really like to work in a job like that

[hearty island]

a job that requires you to pay money once you get it

hmmmmmm

[stable fox]

lol

[peak halo]

it isn't necessarily common sense.

[ashen elk]

sad that so few non-americans can work in NSA//CIA

[peak halo]

Anyway, my question was if "only candidates with active ... clearance can be considered." is code for "don't apply even if you think you could obtain that clearance if you don't already have it--we will immediately throw such applications away". I need to know because filtering those jobs out of my search will save me dozens of hours of time.

[hearty island]

i'm really not sure

https://www.leidos.com/insights/how-to-land-a-cleared-job-whether-you-have-a-clearance-or-not

[ashen elk]

snowden describes the procedure of getting a clearance. Im pretty sure its not like something you can just go out and do - he was applying to CIA

[hearty island]

it actually says in that website

that the company can sponsor you if they think your skills are good enough

[peak halo]

Some positions say that you only need to be eligible for a clearance, and some say that you need to already have it, and I'm trying to ascertain if anyone who frequents this chat who has personal experience with those hiring processes knows if those tend to be hard requirements or if they just say it to reduce the number of incoming applications.

If you do not have that experience, that is fine.

[hearty island]

you know there might be some people in the Cyberacademy server who can help you

they probably need security clearances to even work the jobs they do

so there's some overlap

[peak halo]

Well, the advice that I'm seeing is to only apply for positions that require a secret security clearance rather tan top secret or higher, since those take longer to obtain and they probably won't want to hire you for all the time it takes to obtain one.

[hearty island]

oh ok then

[leaden jasper]

@peak halo Typically if it says "active security clearance" vs "be able to obtain a security clearance" it means they want you to hit the ground running working and don't have time to wait for you to get a clearance. It also probably means they don't have the funds allocated for you to apply for a security clearance through them

Also, for other people here. Job searching with US security clearances is very specific. If you don't actively have experience with it I would advise against giving out advice with something you have no experience in.

But Steler, in terms of saving time for job searches, don't bother with anything TS or TS/SCI. Normal security clearances you should be fine for.

[vapid jay]

Is being a Project Coordinator for a data science team treat as a senior position to "data scientist"

[peak halo]

Thanks! That will help me keep my search more pointed.

[marsh wind]

I think @shadow moss knows a thing or two about clearences and jobs?

at least I am pretty sure he spoke about that few times

[shadow moss]

Kat is right. TS or higher takes too long so few companies will hire you without it unless they have uncleared spot to park you in while they are awaiting clearance. Interim for Secret are still easy to get as far as I know.

I haven’t held a clearance in years.

[shadow moss]

Normal you mean Pub Trust and Secret right?

[leaden jasper]

Mhm

[shadow moss]

Microsoft did call me for SCI with poly job despite not being cleared so maybe backlog is clearing?

[leaden jasper]

COVID has certainly... loosened some of the interview requirements so they're going through that part faster

[shadow moss]

I’ll pass on another poly

[marsh wind]

what's poly job?

[red nacelle]

So speaking from experience with family members and friends with security clearance. It is similar to relocation expenses, if you are qualified and a candidate they truly want they will sponsor you for clearance (pending how quickly they need you in the field). However, you may have to sign some commitment of work. I.E. if you leave the company you may be on the hook in some manner.

COVID has fast tracked many industries so many years that hiriing requirements are coming down to get human capital in the door trained and prepared for what is around the corner. Networking, networking, and keep networking, many answers to questions are truly about the enviroment of the organization, it helps to have insight internally.

[hearty island]

a good place to work?

well FAANG catches a lot of people's eyes bc of the high paying jobs and campuses

but FAANG is also pretty crazy w work requirements

and um startups

startups can be bought out very easily

meaning most of the staff gets let go

mid level companies are interesting

[granite schooner]

Is "the Data Science Field" more of a hype or a good career choice?

[leaden jasper]

It's "SCI with Poly" which is an additional type of clearance you can get for secure compartamentalized inforation. Part of that is you have to take a polygraph. It's a pain

[vestal widget]

what is the future scope for django devs?

career-wise

can it be taken serious?

or only for hobby projects?

[fierce apex]

Lots of opportunities in data science, I'd say it's an excellent career choice - but yes there is a lot of hype.

[granite schooner]

So focusing a job in Data Science 2 years from now would be a good idea? Thx for the info!

[fierce apex]

I mean, as with any career choice I'd say it depends on your goals, but it's certainly an active and growing field and one of the main reasons Python is growing so fast as a popular language is the explosion of data science applications. Data science means a lot of different things to different people though. It's not a super well defined discipline 🙂

[river laurel]

So I wanted to see if I could get some feedback on my thought process... I am currently taking a graduate certificate course in GIS online. My class this semester is teaching PostgreSQL and working with relational databases. My long-term career goal would be to work in the environmental science/climate/green energy field. Would learning python, specifically for data science, be a good choice for me? I have a good amount of foundational programming knowledge, but nothing more than taking intro classes in college.

[granite schooner]

That helps a lot Thank you!

[fierce apex]

In my area (antimalware research) we've had a big shift towards using statistical techniques / machine learning / data science - the volume of data is just so huge these days that there's a ton of interesting work to do in this space. I think that shift is happening across pretty much all industries. I don't think that's going to change any time soon.

[vestal widget]

any opinion?

[marsh wind]

lol I don't know what's SCI, but that matters little.
why polyhraph is pain tho?

[leaden jasper]

It's just another hoop to jump through, is tedious, and annoying.

[marsh wind]

ok... Are there that many jobs that require some clearences in US?

I see it discussed/asked a lot

but only with US concernred, pretty much never for other countries

[manic obsidian]

can I post jobs here?

[hearty island]

please don't

[scarlet remnant]

where they should be posted?

[hearty island]

not anywhere on this server

there are plenty of other coding servers that have job boards

or you can just Google jobs in your area and apply

[river laurel]

Any thoughts on using python for climate data science? Or where I can learn more about that sort of thing?

[hearty island]

that is a cool idea

Look at Kaggle datasets for climate change

[marsh wind]

I tink it's a sound idea

[river laurel]

https://tenor.com/view/adventure-time-jake-happy-feels-eyes-gif-4893306

[hearty island]

are you a beginner to DS/ML?

[river laurel]

That is awesome to hear because after looking into it seems perfect for where I see myself long term. Checking out kaggle now!

Yes total beginner. I know some fundamentals and have written c++, java, python and am taking a SQL class now

[hearty island]

good stuff

how's your math and your DS/algos game?

[river laurel]

all from college courses though. So I'm hella rusty and not that advanced to begin with. My company lost its contract so I'm looking to really get going down this path.

I minored in math... so whatever that is worth haha. I enjoy it. total newb for data science though

[hearty island]

oh so if you minored in math you must've done most of the stuff that you have to learn now

I would recommend Stanford's ML course

[river laurel]

Sweet I'll look into that. Is it beginner friendly?

brilliant, thank you!

[hearty island]

Stanford ML actually expects you to have a decent understanding of the math and it's pretty rigorous

like they'll ask you to write algorithms by hand

in Opera

[marsh wind]

opera? 🙂

[hearty island]

I forgot the language

[marsh wind]

hehe

octave

[hearty island]

Octave

lmao

I'm sorry dude it's been a long day

linked lists have really taken my brain cells for a ride

[icy fern]

Looking for ideas on a research project on cybersecurity and AI that is both serious and doable by a 2nd year CS student in terms of complexity and difficulty

[hearty island]

https://www.upgrad.com/blog/cyber-security-project-ideas-topics/

[icy fern]

None of these really do anything with AI

[hearty island]

http://paper.ijcsns.org/07_book/202002/20200216.pdf

[marsh wind]

man, I know it's been a long day, but this is really a shitty paper 😉

[hearty island]

it's just ideas

I mean if he doesn't like it he can do the research himself and figure out a topic

go into any research paper engine and search up AI/cybersecurity and I'm sure there's topics to look into

[marsh wind]

yeah. tbh if he's a CS student it's probably best to ask Uni peers and profs for some ideas and inspiration 🙂

[slim violet]

"Input here the part of summary"

that's ace quality

[marsh wind]

I only pointed out to the paper because it's quality is negative and because the journal itself is a useless pice of crap 😂

my fave parts are summary line and conclusion

[drifting condor]

hi i am learning python programming and i need to know that what types of work does python junior developers do like?

[marsh wind]

"The possibility of utilizing data mining algorithms to develop and support cyber security"

it's not even correct english 🙂

[hearty island]

most research papers are kinda shitty

[marsh wind]

naaaah

that's totally not true

blind peer review process + editors are there for a good reason

[hearty island]

well the ones I read have these gigantic paragraphs that I just barely read

[digital fjord]

that is just how scientists write things

[marsh wind]

they might be difficult to read, yes

[hearty island]

hmmm seems like a recurring pattern

[marsh wind]

bcs they usually imply that reader poses certain knowldege, usually not basic

[marsh wind]

reading research papers properly is a skill itself i'll tell you that

[hearty island]

yeah I agree

I am actually gonna enroll in a free course about reading academically rigorous stuff

[marsh wind]

and, tbh, not everyone actually needs this skill 🤷

[hearty island]

it is a good skill to have

oh boy

if you want to read CLRS

you better have good reading skills

[marsh wind]

that 1300 page book? yeah))

[hearty island]

I do have good attention span

I mean I code for hours on end

probably not a good practice

although recently I just ask a lot of questions

I can read novels for tha tlong

[marsh wind]

was about to say they

[hearty island]

just not academic books

oh my god

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @vapid jay until 2021-03-04 21:22 (9 minutes and 59 seconds) (reason: duplicates rule: sent 4 duplicated messages in 10s).

[marsh wind]

thnks

[hearty island]

tryna have a convo here god

lmao

No I have fully accepted that my reading skills need work

[drifting condor]

🧐

[hearty island]

yeah what he said

[marsh wind]

really, can be all sort of things

[icy fern]

something about this paper seems wrong

[marsh wind]

and junior python web dev is not same as some QA automation guy or DS/ML engineer and etc

something? 🙂 is there anything right about it lol

[hearty island]

yeah it's definitely not the best source

[marsh wind]

let's just forget that paper it makes my eyes hurt haha

[hearty island]

I would actually ask your professor

and be like hey where should I look for ideas

[marsh wind]

to date my top of worst papers was one with the phrase after the totally not evident equation:
we will not show the proof because it's difficult but this probably tops it

that's not exact quote, but it was the idea (was 3 yrs ago so I might not find it again

[hearty island]

https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3417/10/14/4718/htm

hey guys what do we think about this

this is from Google Scholar

like the first thing that popped up when I searched AI/cybersecurity

maybe you could try AI + cybersecurity applications?

[marsh wind]

which ones?

of that first paper?

usually you write in English

[drifting condor]

In python Job description it's like python skills SQL any one web framework and object relational mapping kind thing ..

[slim violet]

Speaking of that, I recall finding a brief section about female orgasms pasted in fellow students management thesis. It was so to say, out of topic.

[marsh wind]

if your English is too bad then you pay someone to proof it

[hearty island]

there are a lot of things you can do w python

[hearty island]

lmao

what does that have to do w management

never mind I never asked

[marsh wind]

but most normal researchers know English good enough to write paper in it

[hearty island]

oh god I hope they're better than my english professors

[slim violet]

well you know, you copypaste here, and there... and then you go back wrinting and copy paste some more.

[drifting condor]

Yes due to that only it seems like what to do and what to not ... I hope you understand

[hearty island]

yep that's basically citing

[marsh wind]

no, that's plagiarism 🙂

[marsh wind]

sounds like typical back end dev position

[hearty island]

if you cite your sources it's not plaigarism

[marsh wind]

even if you cite you do not copypaste it eaxctly

[hearty island]

quotes?

[marsh wind]

that you can

[hearty island]

direct quotes + citation is always good

[marsh wind]

but that is ocassional thing, does not sounds like well you know, you copypaste here, and there... and then you go back wrinting and copy paste some more.

I mean, you can quoute a sentence or two

[hearty island]

I think he means rephrase

[marsh wind]

yeah that's different 🙂

[hearty island]

Idk I'm just a dude in college

[marsh wind]

I know, no worries. What am saying, rephrasing with citations are Ok when it's some intro or state of the art review

[slim violet]

rofl at this argument, I mean... you foucs on the "quoting" correctness but miss out on the quote content.

[marsh wind]

nah i saw it :O)

[slim violet]

🙂

[marsh wind]

but going deep into it will be trailing too much into offtopic

[slim violet]

but then we should have claimed plagiarism

[glacial cloak]

Typically, when I'm citing a paper I'd take the content that I want to use and write it as say "according to Heinkel and Wasserburg et al, "

Better safe than sorry

You do not want to get dragged into an academic integrity hearing

[hearty island]

so uh

how important are DS/algos after you get past the interview?

just curious

[glacial cloak]

I mean for me, I've run into algo class algos once in two years

[hearty island]

I saw some videos saying they never actually learned algos/DS

[marsh wind]

According to Andreas A. and daspecito et al it's better to avoid quotes about about female orgasms in management thesis

[glacial cloak]

And the one time I ran into that that part of the process got reworked to not use Rabin-Karp since no one else could check it

So it depends on the job but from what I've heard it's not frequent

[marsh wind]

yeah sounds about right.

[hearty island]

but they're not competing for a job rn

the industry has changed ever since they got employed

[slim violet]

As all, it depends on context. If you are to develop some plugin for wordpress you wont need it. If you are to build a recommendation system or whatever you need it.

[hearty island]

nowadays I don't even think people are the ones who create new algorithms

it's computers

I read somewhere about that

[marsh wind]

nah. we ain't there yet.

[slim violet]

you have gpt-3, can train ML-models on it's own, but that's really not the new normal.

[marsh wind]

I think DS/A same as with DS/ML. just as likely that you will implement some algorithm from sratch instead of using existing implementations

[hearty island]

I guess they just said that to get some clicks then

or it may have been some random writer w no experience in the tech industry just writing BS

[marsh wind]

Unless you are to work on bleeding edge of R&D but let's face it, what % of people actually work in that

[hearty island]

there's plenty of those

idk dude today my friend who interviews for Oracle

said that 5 people failed the interview bc they couldn't explain why a while loop in their code had O(log(n) time complexity

that's not even a leetcode question that just means you don't know big O

I'm not saying that one company proves you need to know it I just wanted to give an example

[marsh wind]

well I am sure there are a lot of people who never did leetcode, never properly studied DSA or bigO and are emloyed and doing well 🙂 everyone's situation is kinda different and unique.

if you know that in your geo area and in the industry you want in DSA and bigO are the must then you've no choice but embrace the grind and learn

[neon moat]

I'm employed and can probably identify O(n2) and O(logN) but ask me for anything else and i couldnt tell u

[hearty island]

O(N!) gives me nightmares

[neon moat]

if i ever need to implement some type of sorting algo i would always look it up and find a library that does it efficiently

[hearty island]

but most recursive algorithms are O(N!)

[neon moat]

i would never do it myself

[hearty island]

yeah

I'm just grinding dude

pedal to the metal

whatnot

[neon moat]

ive never used a sorting algo in my job

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[hearty island]

dude

I haven't even learned sorting algos yet

I am stuck in linked list hell

[neon moat]

how are you learning it

cracking the coding interview is a good book

[hearty island]

I use Grokking algorithms to get the big picture

then I use CLRS to look under the hood

[neon moat]

dont know what clrs is

[hearty island]

CLRS is a 1k page long textbook about ds/algos

[neon moat]

ah ok

[hearty island]

it goes more into detail than Grokking

so I'm kind of tag teaming them

[neon moat]

depends why you're learning algos

if u want to work in web dev ur wasting ur time

[hearty island]

I find it interesting and it makes me feel confident that I know them

[neon moat]

fair enough

[hearty island]

also there's a youtuber who does web dev that said he also had to do leetcode questions??

and he was like why do I even have to do that when on the job the hardest thing is centering a div

[neon moat]

depends on who you're applying for i guess

[marsh wind]

front end dev?

[neon moat]

i think a lot of companies copy facebook/amazon interview techniques but dont know the reason why

[hearty island]

they want to be like FAANG

[marsh wind]

if he had to do leetcode there's something deeply wrong with his compnay hiring process lol

[hearty island]

even startups copy FAANG

[hearty island]

agreed

[neon moat]

exactly

[neon moat]

then they are stupid

[hearty island]

I guess they had to a MCAT equivalent for big tech companies too huh

[neon moat]

dont see how memorizing a algorithm equates to ability to solve business problems....coz it doesnt

[hearty island]

you can understand algorithms like binary search

and re produce them

but like how are you supposed to remember 10 different sorting algorithms?

[neon moat]

but how does memorizing that equate to solving a business need?

its a load of rubbish

[hearty island]

it doesn't

it doesn't at all

[neon moat]

its the school education system mentality

[marsh wind]

forget about "how". "Why"

[neon moat]

but in the real world its completely different

[hearty island]

what's sad is that this is what keeps people out of tech

this feeling of omg I'm never gonna learn this stuff

[neon moat]

tbh I wouldnt work anywhere that valued memorizing algos over actual skills

[marsh wind]

luckily, there are quite some sane tech companies

[neon moat]

but I from UK and havent had that problem

[hearty island]

Textron didn't ask me any algos/DS questions

[marsh wind]

I think it's US issue mostly

[hearty island]

but that was for a business analyst position

their thing is mostly Excel

[neon moat]

most of my questions were around focusing on how http requests work etc

which makes sense

[hearty island]

is there a big tech group like FAANG in the UK too?

or is FAANG also in the UK?

[marsh wind]

FANG is everywhere

[neon moat]

facebook, amazon both have offices in UK/Ireland

[hearty island]

oh boy

their reach is everywhere

[neon moat]

but so many more companies that just FAANG

everyone is so hooked on them

[hearty island]

don't worry

[neon moat]

i dont know why

[hearty island]

I'm not a FAANGophile

it's bc of the damn wages

and the campus

the campus is so great bc they never want you to leave

they put food everywhere bc they want you to stay and code for 12 hours straight

lol idk what Hofstra even has

they say it has good industry connections

yeah? where?

[peak halo]

Isn't zip recruiter one of those websites that says they use AI to find positions for you to apply to?

They're asking me to apply to a job that mandates 15 years of experience.

15 years ago I was a child.

[marsh wind]

Don't trust anything that just says "We use AI to blah-blah" 🙂

[peak halo]

I used to until I learned about AI.

[marsh wind]

I'm working at startup which is AI and all.... Our sales would try to say that app my team works on has AI and predictive and etc

[peak halo]

they would say that your app has predictive?

[marsh wind]

they just not say that it's not gonna be there for another year

predicitve features, whatever

[hearty island]

idk dude their AI might be glorified if statements

but I don't like zip recruiter in general

I keep getting spammy emails from them so I blocked them

[peak halo]

There's also RippleMatch (which ostensibly does the same thing), and their algorithm is so bad that they contacted me and wanted to interview me for a position within their company that had nothing to do with my interests

The interview went something like this, after we got past the formalities:
"I'm interested to know--what algorithm do you use for matching people to potential jobs?"
"A random forest. You know about that sort of thing?"
"Well, we are discussing a data science internship, yes?"
"No this is a marketing position."
"..."
"..."

[hearty island]

@peak halo yep I’m on that too

it’s really not good imo I barely get matches

and when I do they’re unpaid

[peak halo]

Are you in college currently?

[hearty island]

yes

[peak halo]

what year?

[hearty island]

sophomore

[peak halo]

ah

[hearty island]

that is why I’m working really hard on DS/algos

Bc I need a job after I graduate

@peak halo at least you’re not using WayUp you get a “representative” that barely does anything to get you any jobs at all

they’re so low budget they don’t even use AI they just use people and these people have like 5000 other customers they have to look for internships for

[peak halo]

my guess is that you're going to gain most of your marketable skills during your next school year anyway, though I'm not sure.

[hearty island]

@peak halo see that would make sense if I wasn’t a business major

[peak halo]

ah. information systems?