career-advice

[coarse citrus]

oh thank you

[marsh wind]

haha like me reviewing JS/TS code.... never written a line of it

[swift veldt]

If you've done VBA, I'm pretty sure you have some business background. Only the dead's seen the end of Excel.
If you have some money to spend, reviewing some coursera specialization in Python would be my go to. If you'd rather keep it free, freecodecamp on YouTube offers a large selection of videos on the topic. For Free! And Adless!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfscVS0vtbw

[coarse citrus]

thank you for the info. I will keep it free atm and thank you for the youtube link. however, if i find that these do not go into enough detail. I will be purchasing some courses specialising in python.

[swift veldt]

freecodecamp offers some deepdives in many languages. Also, after you got some python tried out, check out this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lmCu8wz8ro. It's quite fun.

[coarse citrus]

oh wait i think i tried freecodecamp b4, but i experienced so directory errors,

and it screwed up my entire pc so i had to do a factory reset

[swift veldt]

that's not freecodecamp, it's just a matter of environment setup (which is hard for the non initiated)

it's a big first step.

but that can be solved by following documentation

[coarse citrus]

oh right, yeah tbf i screwed it up myself i kept on trying to modify files and things and in the end I couldnt even reinstall python

[swift veldt]

I also struggled with setting my env at first

because it feels like an unecessary step

especially if you use windows

but it's a weeding step, weirdly.

[crystal linden]

Hiya. Not sure if this is the right place to ask but I want to know what I wanted to pursue in the future, I've got two option to consider:

Web dev or software dev (or even a game dev). Can anyone lays out some pros and cons of this so I can choose for myself? I imagined web dev is gonna be less hardcore than a software dev but I sort of don't feel like I'm gonna be enjoying being a web dev as much as a software dev

[reef kayak]

@open swallow your resume looks fine but try adding more experience if you can

Right now there is a lot of white space

You could add them

Experience is experience, are you applying for internships?

Yea they just really want you to see you have done stuff outside

Umm.. That is more like a project tbh

I put hackathon projects under projects

Are you part of any clubs? If so you can add that too

[true harness]

don't lie about anything, if they do find out about it, it's very bad

[reef kayak]

^

Lying will make it the interview worse

Also, I am thinking to get an AWS certification. Anyone knows any good resources to prepare for the exam?

[silent scaffold]

Do you guys familliar with cryptocurrwncy

[inner wren]

:x: According to my records, this user already has a mute infraction. See infraction #21099.

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @rancid notch until 2020-11-24 05:44 (9 minutes and 59 seconds) (reason: duplicates rule: sent 4 duplicated messages in 10s).

[fading plover]

m

[vapid jay]

I'm trying to get into learning python. How much time will it take for me to know decent python if I give it an hour a day?

[reef kayak]

From scratch it may take a while

If you have prior experience with other languages then I would say worst case a month

[fathom rover]

question. are there any particular projects that interviewers want to see on your CV or that would raise your chances of getting a job? if so what are some examples?

[dry sapphire]

long shot but anyone have any views on ThoughtWorks

[reef kayak]

@fathom rover there is no specific project in mind. Some may do increase chances of getting that interview but otherwise not really. Companies just want you to see that you're learning on the outside of school/work. Also, they want you to see that you are actually comfortable by coding besides just coding a tree lol.

[fathom rover]

oki doki thanks!

[silent scaffold]

i made a project that fetch github users and display it

https://gitlab.com/dumppy/django-rest/-/blob/master/github.png

[limber solar]

thanks a lot

[vapid jay]

is it late to start learning programming at the age of 16?

[mortal hazel]

No

[vapid jay]

oh, what a rough answer

but thanks,

[keen minnow]

i started few months ago. and im 26

[serene wharf]

in what carrer you study python?

[swift veldt]

A lot of careers. Python is the kind of duct taping language that fits in a lot of places.

But usually it has to go hand in hand with other languages.

[distant crow]

backend development, and data science are a couple of things where python is strong on

[vapid jay]

JS is a great language to pair with python if you're looking to do it

For fullstack development

[golden tundra]

@vapid jay I didn’t start until college. Got a CS job anyways. You’ll be fine

[restive knoll]

someone please help

@vapid jay Salut !!

Je ne suis pas très bon en français

Je suis Indien

[vapid jay]

howd u guys get your first developer jobs

[restive knoll]

@vapid jay I did some graphic designing for a game dev company

so I got a job there

[fierce island]

hello i am a bignner

[restive knoll]

Hello bro

[fierce island]

i am in 8th class

and lerning python from 1 year

[restive knoll]

ah nice

it seems you are an indian

[fierce island]

yes but how

[vapid jay]

your name

[fierce island]

my name is Abhinav

[vapid jay]

mada kono sekai wa boku wo kainarishatai mitai da

your grammar

[restive knoll]

😈 Devil OP 😈

[fierce island]

OP meanse i know

[restive knoll]

yes

[fierce island]

over power n

[vapid jay]

but anyways, what can I do with my life. i want a job, make money even when im still 16

[spare lily]

yeah me to

[true harness]

try to get an internship

[vapid jay]

how

PUBLIC SANTA VOID MAIN, DAMN MADE MY DAY

[true harness]

you have to apply first

[vapid jay]

oh

yea ;((

do i get money if i apply for helper role

[true harness]

no

[vapid jay]

oh

[dire nimbus]

I am Indian. Should I choose ML and AI or go with Cse? Pls guide

[hexed sinew]

I am indian

What is CSE

Oh

Computer science

?

Machine learning and Artificial Intelligence is included in Computers

[golden tundra]

@vapid jay Frankly, at 16 and a newbie at CS, I feel like you’re better off just getting a part time job if you want money

[dire nimbus]

@hexed sinew there is seperate subject called ML and ai

I am Indian. Should I choose ML and AI or go with Cse? Pls guide

[timber cliff]

need a good knowledge in math to do ml

[dire nimbus]

Like calculus? @timber cliff

[timber cliff]

ya

[dire nimbus]

Its ok

Will companies recruit me

[timber cliff]

and matrix

[dire nimbus]

Is it trending

Matrix is ok

[timber cliff]

ya

it is

[dire nimbus]

Like can i take the risk

Its very new

[timber cliff]

oh !!! u need a good pc too

[dire nimbus]

Damn

[timber cliff]

16 ram

[dire nimbus]

I have 8

And 2 gb graphic

Nvidia 910 or somthing idk

[timber cliff]

ssd??

[dire nimbus]

Idk

[hexed sinew]

ML and AI is what i prefer

My view

[dire nimbus]

But ppl say it has no scope

[hexed sinew]

Because its where you can enjoy

[timber cliff]

ya i think so too

[hexed sinew]

Creating your own AI

[dire nimbus]

Think what

So shld i prefer ml and ai?

[timber cliff]

ya ml

[dire nimbus]

Thnx

[hexed sinew]

Yes

Yess

Good

[dire nimbus]

Ok Thanks bro @hexed sinew @timber cliff

[hexed sinew]

Lol

[vapid jay]

imagine not getting to pursue your dreams because of financial problrms

[dire nimbus]

Doctors

[timber cliff]

gamers

[vapid jay]

pilots

[junior zephyr]

Are U gonna study engineering in India? if yes, Take Cse for b.tech and then AI or ML in M.tech according to ur taste...I have heard taking a specialization at an early stage might not be a good idea..Only my suggestion@dire nimbus

[hybrid sapphire]

its really sad

[dire nimbus]

@junior zephyr oh ok Thanks for the suggestion bro

[hybrid sapphire]

are you also an Indian?

[dire nimbus]

Yes

[junior zephyr]

yes

[dire nimbus]

I live in karnataka

[hybrid sapphire]

which college did you prefer ?

*do

for studying b.tech in India

[dire nimbus]

Iit

[junior zephyr]

Bro I am studying in a private college. If u want my suggestion just follow the IIT mantra.

[hybrid sapphire]

are you in KIIT?

[junior zephyr]

No bro.Amrita

[dire nimbus]

Damn

[hybrid sapphire]

Or to be more specific is KIIT good for B.Tech?

[dire nimbus]

i got bits goa electrical

I. Left that decision

[junior zephyr]

Bits is good ..See I am from South and don't know much that..KIIT @dire nimbus @hybrid sapphire

[dire nimbus]

K

[hybrid sapphire]

got it bro

[dire nimbus]

Whats the full Form @hybrid sapphire

[hybrid sapphire]

what full form?

[junior zephyr]

Bye👍

[dire nimbus]

Kiit

Full form

[hybrid sapphire]

Kalinga Institute of Industrial Technology

[dire nimbus]

Ok

Do you know rv?

[shadow mist]

Does anyone have any resume templates? I want to start building my resume.

[swift veldt]

You have a plethora of resume templates in Latex over on Overleaf.

[prime flame]

(Cross-posted from #python-discussion at advice of mods)
Question for devs who use python in a professional setting - How common / valuable is test-driven development, in your experience? At university most of the professors swore by it and said everyone should do it, but I'm curious how common it actually is & whether or not it's recommended. (Sorry if this isn't the right channel to send this, I've never sent a message in this server!

[shadow mist]

What can you guys say about my resume?

[jolly escarp]

I assume redacted for us, but @shadow mist I would make sure to include company name. When noting things under past jobs, be outcome focused. Instead of "managed to sell xyz" consider refactoring to
"Exceeded sales plan by x"
"Met or exceeded sales weekly"
"Managed Customer relationships and contracts successfully"

Things like that. Then during the interview you can talk about the skills/lessons learned.

Same with the equity trader role.
"managed risk" => "Ensured x% return through risk management"

Its all about business outcomes, and how you being hired will help your new employer accomplish their goal.

[shadow mist]

Wow, I could really see that it's more appealing. Thank you brother!

One question, Should resume's be a single page or is two fine?

[livid prism]

Anybody know any way to not procrastinate in a job if i had one? I have ADHD and I'm worried if i get a job, i would be fired because my focus level is like a fly.

i am referring to a coding job btw

[hexed moon]

Militant self contr

Multiple checkup breaks in your day

Something to buzz you and make you acknowledge was I be effective,

Record your distraction so you can avoid it

[livid prism]

alright, i felt like if i made someone shock me with something not too powerful every time i got off-task, that would work, but who would do that? 😂

[hexed moon]

A raspberry pi with a taser on a hrm strap

Lol

[livid prism]

🤔

[hexed moon]

But yeah, I have a meeting prompt every hour duration of 45 minutes

So that when it goes off I can note what I was doing, what had issues, what I need to look at

And of the week go through the list see triggers, ineffective time waste poor output or work that created more work by rushing it

Essentially found, work slower

By just going through the work piece by peice step by step you get more done, don't try and go faster as when you do more quicker you just have more chances to overwhelm and lose yourself at the next shiny fork you find

Alas, not adhd just got a few of the traits that means I am on the same meds

So just try and get a process that works now, your whole life not just 9 to 5

[harsh patio]

welp

job hunting as a mid level is actually really awesome

[tardy egret]

good to hear

[harsh patio]

yeah i have a couple offers but im struggling to figure out which to take. making a decision is quite difficult. moreso than i expected

[tardy egret]

Heheh! Yep, sometimes it is. What are the sticking points for you?

[harsh patio]

what do you mean?

[tardy egret]

What are the issues that are making the decision difficult?

[harsh patio]

compensation is relatively similar between the offers. Nothing stands out too much from any of the jobs except one has amazing benefits

[tardy egret]

Do either of the jobs really excite you?

[harsh patio]

one does but it seems to come with poor benefits and potential overtime

[tardy egret]

Loving your job goes a LONG way, but good benefits are worth more than just money. I can see the tough call.

[harsh patio]

so, i'm trying to consider that. But i'm truthfully not sure which i'd love or hate. I'm honestly not sure

the tech stack for two of them are almost identical

[tardy egret]

Maybe look at glassdoor.com and see if there are any reviews for the companies

[harsh patio]

two of the jobs are small, so much so they don't have much in the way of reviews

[tardy egret]

Heh. What about the benefits do you like? Vacation time, health insurance, something else?

[harsh patio]

one of the options (my leading decision) has anywhere from a 4.1 - 4.6 on sites like indeed, glassdoor, etc

thats out of 5

the one im most interested in has amazing benefits, as far as what i've seen

401K matching, bonuses, and 100% healthcare premiums covered for myself and my family

[tardy egret]

Don't forget to take the 401k matching into account when comparing salaries. Free money.

[harsh patio]

i tend not to consider it because i don't 401K match currently. But its happening very very soon. So its become quite important to me

[tardy egret]

Personally, I would take a pay cut for great benefits and interesting work. I just did take a pay cut just for more interesting work.

But I can't really advise you in this - sounds like it's going to come down to the job that really speaks to you in some way.

I can't type tonight

[harsh patio]

yeah its rough. Taking the most job specific interest one means a large lack of benefits. No bonuses, 401K. Highest salary but doesn't offset the lack of benefits. Second job is lowest salary and mediocre benefits with some decent interest in the work. Then the middle of the road salary, highest benefits, with work that seems okay. Team seems chill. Might be the most relaxed environment

[tardy egret]

I've learned that, for me, my coworkers and work environment matter more to me than the work or the technology. The work having some "meaning" is more important than the technology. I've also recently been reminded to pay attention to my gut, and that company culture flows from the top. I dunno, maybe something useful to you in there.

[harsh patio]

yeah its just difficult to gauge all that from some of the interactions i've had

i need to get better at that

feel like i've gotten much better at interviewing, per all the offers. But i'm still terrible at gauging from them and asking the right questions to gauge how much i will or will not like them

[tardy egret]

What industries are these companies in?

[harsh patio]

3 wildly different ones

the one im most leaning towards is a financial organization i guess? another is music, and a third is in sports/athletics

[golden tundra]

How much time do you have to decide?

[harsh patio]

mmmm until monday for most, probably realistically need a decision tomorrow

because the one with the greatest benefits already gave me some time

[tardy egret]

Finance company will probably always make money, music and athletics might be more at the whim of the economy

[golden tundra]

It sounds like you have 3 offers. Can you realistically eliminate at least one? It sounds like one of them is sounding very ehhhh, bad benefits and overtime

[tardy egret]

👆

[golden tundra]

Also, how do you feel like you “gelled” with each company during the interview process?

Did you come across any red flags during the interview process? One company that extended me an offer wanted me to get drug tested within 3 days of receiving the verbal offer

So that was a nice little flag for me

[harsh patio]

No red flags really from any. I "gelled" the most in the music one. They were all super cool. Really awesome environment. I didn't gel so much with the financial one, but the people who interviewed me were super relaxed so we had a pretty good experience I think. So despite not gelling it wasn't like it was difficult to be relaxed with them by any means

[tardy egret]

I've never had an employer want to drug test me, and I've worked in some very regulated industries. That's a big flag

[harsh patio]

No one has said anything about drug testing so we are good there

[golden tundra]

I personally don’t think so. I think it was mandated by their insurance

Would you have to move for any of them post COVID? If not and you expect to return to office, how would the commute be?

[harsh patio]

they're all 100% remote, except the music one. its 100% remote so long as i stay in my state i'm currently in (just happens to be a state they allow remote work in)

[golden tundra]

The offer I ended up taking also required. a drug test and the job is fine

[harsh patio]

even post covid they're all remote

[golden tundra]

Okay, so that’s not a factor.
Do you think you can eliminate at least one?

Also, what do you value in a company? Advancement, benefits, work life balance?

[harsh patio]

It kind of depends, honestly. Tomorrow i'm supposed to get an adjusted salary from the music one and if its no where near the other 2 i'll be forced to eliminate it. If it IS close, i might eliminate the sports one. It just lacks lots of competitive benefits. The job seems the most interesting but they definitely have that 'start up' culture i'm trying to get away from.

The guy for that sports job -really- wants me though lol. Its a slightly unique job posting that i happen to match 100%

Kind of all 3 (advancement, benefits, work/life balance). But i'll take mediocre benefits for growing opportunities and decent coworkers (don't have to be anything special, just people who help ensure a chill environment)

currently though, the biggest thing i was looking for was not piece of shit coworkers and growth ability

[golden tundra]

Honestly, I’m not a fan of startup culture. It’s so easily to go horribly awry. I would probably élimante theirs

[tardy egret]

I prefer small companies and startups to big ones

They do go awry more often than not, though

[golden tundra]

And, uh, frankly, a lot of them seem to be an excellent breeding ground for bro culture

[harsh patio]

yeah i'm with a company now that is 'start up culture' and they fucking blow. I'm expected to regularly bend overbackwards for them to grow despite the exponential growth they're already seeing. and my coworkers are not even remotely personable. They're fucking terrible, including my boss

thus

i have options for new jobs lol

i enjoy small companies. But 'start up' culture is toxic as fuck

no one should be expected to give up much of their life for a company and that be the 'expectation'

[tardy egret]

Overtime and bros are the evil startups. On the flipside, you get to wear lots of hats and build things from the ground up.

..at the good ones.

[harsh patio]

the lots of hats one is meh to me

i watch my boss wear multiple hats and shes terrible at it, also has responsibilities she isn't good at

shes my manager, a team lead, develops software, and a product manager. And shes mediocre at all of them

[tardy egret]

Yeah, that's too much

[harsh patio]

because 'wearing multiple hats' for them is doing multiple jobs so they don't hire someone else

yeah the company is bad

but i'm worried the sports one will be like that, and the benefits being what they are make it difficult

[tardy egret]

If you're not really into sports, sports-centric places will start treating you like an outsider, in my experience

[harsh patio]

im into sports, just not the one they cater to specifically

but i agree with what you're saying. I never really got into it with coworkers at my last job and it was all cycling based

and i didn't cycle much. I made more friends when i started to run haha

I might email the hiring guy of my leading offer i'm thinking of taking and just ask one or two questions regarding growth and culture.

[tardy egret]

Remote workers will have some impact on that, but I think places are still going to have a geocentric "core" of employees

Good idea

[harsh patio]

Yeah just to double check

and if things line up....then i'll probably sign it tomorrow afternoon

[golden tundra]

good luck!

[tardy egret]

His tone in the reply will be as informative as the answers

Yeah, good luck!

[harsh patio]

thank you both for helping me walk through this mentally a little haha

[tardy egret]

Always handy to just talk about it, glad I could help my little bit

[harsh patio]

i've only ever had one offer in this field so having multiple is like...wildly new and difficult for me

one at a time i mean

these offers confirm everything about why i need to leave my current company though

[tardy egret]

👍

[jolly escarp]

@shadow mist 2 pages is fine. but will be the limit for a bit. You may consider reorganizing your experience/projects section. Before you had each section broken out as experiance and projects, that was easier to read, and i would go back to that. Your work experiance isn't in what you are applying, but your new to the workforce and showing that you can show up and hold a job is a win. Resumes are all read from the top down, so put what you want to shine up top. I assume your applying for an analytics/data science internship, so move the Upscale Hotel project up top. Its a pretty bad ass project, and what you want them to glance at to get you into the 1st round. That said, any hiring manager worth their salt will go to the repo you have listed. YOUR READ ME IS BLANK! it doesn't have to be much, a repeat of purpose from the the capstone report, and hyperlinks to where to look/how to read ie:

capstone project report contains, a high level overview of blaaahhhhh

Opening-a-hotelin-la is the python notebook which performs xyz

The technologies piece is really python libraries you are familiar with. Technologies, in my opinion (others chime in) should be infrastructure or services. such as Tableau, AWS, Docker, GCP. That kind of thing.

If you want to take yourself to the next step, get familiar with a cloud provider and executing things there. IMO Google Cloud (GCP) is the most intuitive for beginners, and they give you a bunch of credits so you can build stuff for free. Since you know sql, you could do a pretty rad project that flowed like:

Data in Cloud storage ->
ML via AI Platform Notebooks ->
Write back to Cloud Storage ->
load into Big query ->
dashboard in Data Studio

Also, ask questions/gather requirements in the interview. "What does the ideal candidate look like", "Who would be the primary customer of this role", "What does success in this role look like in 30/60/90 days" etc.
Go into detail about what you have done, but always tie it back to how it applies to this role. Don't just monologue your experience in chronological order. I will hire a solid person with 80% of the requirements and an aptitude to learn over a poor culture fit with 100% skills any day.

[amber sapphire]

hello

[shadow mist]

@jolly escarp Wow thank you! I definitely did not anticipate a response that detailed. I will get to work!

[reef ermine]

Hi

[novel nebula]

I don't if it is appropriate to massage here.. If it is so.. Please, MOD delete this..

Hii, Looking for collaboration.. If someone can, help me out... I'm at this moment in intermediate phase of Python programming..

I had a startup idea 3 months ago, and I thought I will try to bulit it by myself but, it's quite hard for me to focus on both aspect one side I have to do market research about StartUp, think about product development and other side have to learn programming due to that, not able do anything properly..
I don't consider myself good with programming, so.. If you feel comfortable to just listen to my idea and if we could collaborate.. It will be greatfull specially backend..
Looking forward for DM 🙏

I have already done Market Research about product and other aspect but, now have to focus on product development...

[coarse citrus]

Just purchased udemy course on python for finance and investment (365 careers) wish me luck guys lmfao

[heady fern]

Howdy folks, I am looking for a someone who has a Computer Science degree who would be able to answer me 5 simple interview questions. This is a major project for me so if someone could please help me, I would greatly appreciate it. Please private DM if you are interested in helping a fellow student out. Thank you !

[golden tundra]

@heady fern Can you give an idea of what kind of info you’ll be asking about (I’m not comfortable giving out personal info on the internet, for instance)? Also if there’s a country from which the degree has to be from

[violet magnet]

I need an opinion. Should I put this on my CV?
dropped out of school to read "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" to your mom

[heady fern]

I’ll shoot you a private DM

[golden tundra]

Uh, I’m not sure if you’re being serious, @violet magnet, but if so, absolutely not
Resumes aren’t the place for jokes, you really want your candidacy to be taken seriously

[violet magnet]

Interesting perspective.

[hollow moon]

what are you hoping to learn? Finance is mostly data science, numpy, dataframes, and sorting

[iron spear]

I have 10 years of premium coding experience
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Scratch

[vale stream]

bruh moment lol

theres actual people out there who spend weeks on scratch

[iron spear]

10 years scratch

my spirte can move up and down

[unborn crag]

I have 13 years of scratch experience and now I know how to rotate sprites

[violet magnet]

That's nothing. I spend ten years on my JRPG epic in RPG Maker. Its nearing completion and incorporates custom Javascript plugins. Should I put that on my CV?

A challenging work related obstacle I have overcome? Around year 6 in development, I was forced to transition from RPG Maker VX Ace to RPG Maker MV. Because one uses Ruby and the other used Javascript (and because I knew neither language) I had to essentially start my project over from scratch. But it was worth it because the MV version comes with a Side View Battle System which is better than anything I could have programmed. I think in about 3 more years the project should be ready.

Should I put that on my CV?

[vapid jay]

its hard being in 6th grade

what a career

[violet magnet]

Yes, I was senior tech lead on that project.

This is basically why I dropped out of college, working on this project for a decade has demanded all my attention but has been valuable experience in the workforce solving real problems.

[ember imp]

Whoa

Nice

Insane dedication 1+++

[violet magnet]

Yeah, so I'm looking for positions that involve reading "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" to other peoples moms since I have experience doing that also.

[ember imp]

Intriguing

[vapid jay]

can't tell if this is ironic or not

[vestal skiff]

hahaha.

[vestal skiff]

RESPECT

[vapid jay]

F

[vestal coral]

I am a python beginner, can I still get a job?

[vast shoal]

Most likely not.

It's possible to get a job as a self-taught developer, at least in some countries, but you still need to compensate for the lack of formal education with other credentials, and a complete beginner will most certainly lack anything like that.

[vestal coral]

alright thanks

[wide condor]

Is it really to do of maths with python when it comes to production

[vapid jay]

depends on what you want to pursue

for example, if you want to be a front-end developer, you won't really need maths

However, if you are pursuing data analytics or algorithmic or whatever such, you would really need much maths

[wide condor]

oh damn

i mean frontend with python is less likely to happen

[vast shoal]

Backend web development in Python is fairly common. It generally doesn't require a lot of math.

[vapid jay]

guys i wanna land my job in google

i am 15

i m still a sophomore

[glad crag]

But, do you know how to rotate your sprite?

hehehe

[coarse citrus]

Yeah I'm looking to do those sort of things and some data scrubbing just to get an idea of how python is used like in finance

Once I finish the course I'll update on its effectiveness

[vapid jay]

enjoy life whilst you can

thats how i think, because i will have to work for the rest of my life anyways so just relax now

[golden tundra]

As a side note, one of my coworkers and I were talking about this yesterday - one disadvantage of being a self taught dev is it’s much harder to learn good coding practices

Which makes it a nightmare for other people to read and maintain your code

[spice musk]

Not entirely true. Depends on what resources you consult as a seft taught dev.

[golden tundra]

Uh . . . that’s why it’s much harder

Because you need to pick up the right resources

And you have to realize that it’s important without someone breathing down your neck or docking you points because your code is crap

Or your commit messages are terrible

I don’t mean it’s harder in the sense of actual “oof, that was rough,” I mean it’s harder in the sense that it’s much easier to go astray or not realize

[vast shoal]

That's one reason why open source contributions is a good way to learn as a self-taught dev. Many or most OSS projects will review your contributions before they merge them, so you can get a lot of feedback on your form that way.

[golden tundra]

Yeah! But again, it’s a lot easier to go wrong when you’re self taught

And that’s also probably why it’s more important than ever to be able to present code you’ve written and do well on practicals when you’re self taught

[spice musk]

It depends on how a one would want to solve their problem or achieve their goal. Some people will just follow any tutorial and want something quick and dirty as long as it works, whereas there will be others who will want to look at official documentation/understand the concepts/ and then code. This makes a lot of difference as well.

[golden tundra]

I feel like you’re kind of proving my point.

[vast shoal]

It will vary from person to person, but I think the point Rebel is making is that at uni, there is external pressure that incites you to learn good habits, whereas it has to come from yourself when you're self-teaching.

[golden tundra]

I mean, schooling or formal training isn’t a guarantee of quality, but as long as there are other people examining your code, I do feel like it’s more likely your code will end up as higher quality in the end

[vast shoal]

Yeah, not necessarily good or sufficient external pressure, but some external pressure nonetheless.

[golden tundra]

And with school, hopefully, the external pressure (your graders/professors) have been judged by some metric to be skilled and qualified

Even if you’re committed to good coding practice as a self taught dev, I do wonder if you might end up with some bad habits unknowingly if there’s no one to tell you that the habit is bad
Like, misusing comments

[vapid jay]

How would you misuse comments? Just commenting on stuff that's explicit/obvious?

[golden tundra]

I can think of a couple ways of the top of my head

Firstly, too many comments or too much detail. I don’t think anyone wants an enormous block of text

Secondly, comments that are irrelevant but that they thought were important

[plush flame]

Too many comments/comments on obvious/unrelated things harm the readability instead of improving it
Another issue would be using comments as a "crutch", I guess, to explain a piece of code instead of rewriting it in a better way

[golden tundra]

Thirdly - this one is up to debate, but it could definitely be detrimental - but my workplace tends to ask for comments to be used sparingly because if the code changes and the comment isn’t updated, then it creates “multiple sources of truth.” Which is to say, people can’t tell if the comment accurately expresses what the code should do and changing the code function creates a bug or if the comment needs to be updated

I think this could be a pitfall easy to fall into - change the code but forgot to change any explanatory comments. So comments that explain inner workings can be a bit dangerous because you need to remember to keep them in sync with any updates

Side note: one of my coworkers actually does have terrible commit messages and it drives me nuts.
This week, three of their commit messages were “test,” “testing,” and “experiment,” misspelled, and no, they weren’t writing tests, they were trying to figure out a bug

[vast shoal]

The issue with comments becoming outdated when the code changes is the main problem with comments I would say. A misleading comment is more harmful than none at all. And in almost every case, you can write readable code that documents itself. As a simple example, rather than have a comment describing what a block of code does, break that block out into a function and give the function a descriptive name. Most uses of comments fall into this category. If you need an extensive comment to explain some unintuitive code, the code is probably smelly and you should fix it.

[golden tundra]

Yeah, I think that’s our general philosophy. There is the sort of grey area though where your code isn’t really that hacky or unintuitive/hard to read but it did have to be written with a specific thing to avoid problems down the line

Hard to avoid writing a comment then

[vast shoal]

There may be exceptions, but it should be fairly rare.

I think you can mitigate the issue with bad commit messages by fostering a culture of code reviews, writing a project style guide to refer to and setting up server-side push hooks that evaluate the formatting of commit messages.

You can teach people to rebase their feature branches before they merge them to fix bad commit messages and unnecessary commits.

[golden tundra]

Oh, we have code reviews in place now

It just won’t be helpful if someone has to try to figure out what commit changed X 2 years down the line.
My coworker says stuff like, “Well, I didn’t change anything, the code is the same as before. Except for the regex,” and I just want to scream, “Then put the addition of the regex in your commit message.”

[peak drum]

FYI the xdoctest package will automatically check your comment docstrings for errors and let you know when things get out of sync so you can fix them

If you make it a policy to include that in your CI automation checks then you won't have to worry about culture

[small grotto]

What's up with all theses companies looking at my linkedin profile, but not messaging me? Any other professionals get this?

[vapid jay]

Nooo😂😂

[vapid jay]

Say you were making a project for your resume:

How long should it be taking?

I've been on my project for 1 month now, and I've been coding everyday for ~2 hours (at a minimum). I don't even want to complete my full envisionment of the project, so I've left out features in fear of it taking excessively long.

[golden tundra]

Uh
Is it for the sole purpose of boosting your resume?

If so, I don’t think it needs to be nearly that intense

A project that went on my resume was a few weeks of work

[vapid jay]

Alright, yeah, I feel like I'm getting into it over-excessively. It's a web project and everything that I want is there (the main stuff, anyway), aimed for the resume but I also learnt new technologies like React.

For web-dev projects like that, should I be aiming to host them also or just keep them on github?

[orchid spade]

yo im just 16 too bro

@ saitama

[swift veldt]

both, @vapid jay. It's good to present something both as a product (which would-be users can access) and as a code base (for review).

[vapid jay]

Ok! I don't think I'll bother with a landing page or any other jazz, I'll just host my site, have guest signup, and explain in the resume all about the project. Thanks for the input guys! 🙂

[next ivy]

@vapid jay did you include tests? That stuck out to my company when they looked at the project.

[vapid jay]

I didn't 😦 but now that I have learnt what I had to in terms of frameworks, I can add some tests for my API endpoints or whatnot to get some experience with it.

If you don't mind me asking... what sorts of things do you test, say if you had a few API endpoints?

[next ivy]

Test those endpoints, if it's a CRUD app you can test against a test database. You can use a tool like Selenium to test UI components.

You don't have to go for full coverage, but test the what you determine to be the most important aspects.

If you used Flask or Django, google "Unit test Flask"

[vapid jay]

I did do some manual testing of the UI, but I don't think that would count. One of the most important bits I think would be the database. I'll look at some stuff related to Django to get myself acquainted with testing. Thanks @next ivy

[reef kayak]

Anyone ever done new year new hack or holiday hack?

[feral sun]

Anyone know of a good site to prep for job coding challenges

[worn pine]

What is the best major to take if you want to be a developer

[golden tundra]

@feral sun I like Leetcode because it tells you how you did in space/time complexity in comparison to other people

[sullen cloak]

Hello

Umm

What do i really do as a intern ?

[true harness]

are you an intern?

[polar ruin]

google

[deep mauve]

Plenty of people get "proper training" and end up with habits just as bad or worse than self-taught devs, so I think it's a wash

[nocturne snow]

I guess this would be a career question: I'm looking to join some competitions (not generic ones from kaggle) for data analysis, for instance hosted by a consultancy company like deloitte. Does anyone know where to find these?

My uni has some resources, but they are limited.

[autumn snow]

Hey can anyone gelp me with pricing a project?

Please🙏🏻

[icy berry]

you need to add context @autumn snow, there are probably many that can, but not from that alone.

[autumn snow]

Ohh yeah gimme a second!

This is a project which includes one client side which updates package status into a cliud database! So these clients can be from anywhere...when the status is updated from the cloud server where the database is stored an email goes to the recipient of the package... So this is the context my client gave!! So how much shud i set as my price..its a quite complex and time consuming project so!!

@icy berry

Any idea? @icy berry

[icy berry]

where are you from, what is your python/programming experience, how long time would it take and is this a freelance commission or something else?

[autumn snow]

Yes its a project my fiverr client gave!

And i have a 5 year python xp

I mean i didn't do any official projects this is one of my first official ones!

So...

[autumn snow]

And I'm from Florida

[icy berry]

well.. fiverr looks to be a freelancing hub, so im guessing your pricing yourself amongs developers from china and india, guessing the prices are pretty low.

[autumn snow]

No the client is from us!

[icy berry]

lets look at what its worth, and then you have an upper ceiling for your price.

[autumn snow]

I didnt get u?

[icy berry]

so a python programmer in florida makes about 80-90k pr year

[autumn snow]

Im just 17

[icy berry]

thats an hourly rate of 43 usd

[autumn snow]

And i am nor into any job

[autumn snow]

So..

[icy berry]

if you look at the lower end, the low paying python developer in florida you get

33 usd pr hour

freelancers are normally extorted for their labour, maybe as low as 50%

[autumn snow]

So my delivery duration is 25 days so PAY = 33x24x25 LOL😂

[autumn snow]

Ohh

[icy berry]

with that in mind, your looking at 17 usd pr hour, but i do not think you should go that low, i think 30 usd at your age, with your experience is fine

[autumn snow]

They asked me for a price! So im asking how much shud i put in the price tag

As per the project!

[autumn snow]

Lol i said 100 usd at tge beginning!!

I have to increase it😅

[icy berry]

well, 100 is almost what i do pr hour

[autumn snow]

What abt for a delivery duration of 25 days?

[icy berry]

well, i get 140 pr hour. but still, i have a few years of experience

[autumn snow]

Thats a huge amount nearly 2.5 grand a day.. whoa!!

[icy berry]

no idea if you can do it in 25 days

[autumn snow]

So how much shud i set 30 usd per hour??

[icy berry]

based on income for python devs in florida (that i could find online) i would say 30

[autumn snow]

But is still dont get the idea of per hour i mean who calculates the time they sit infront of the acreen!

[autumn snow]

Ohh!

[icy berry]

if you work 100 hours on a project, that would mean 3000 usd

you cant give our hourly rate without an time estimate

lets say you think it will take 100hours of work over 20 days, then that would mean the price for the project in this example would be 3000 usd and a delivery time of 25 days would fit

[autumn snow]

Whoa!! I mean i say 12-16 hrs! So .. 30x16 under 500 dollar!

[autumn snow]

Ok!! Now i get it!👍🏻

[icy berry]

yeah, 480 usd in that case

you can get payed pr hour or pr project

there are no fixed rule

[autumn snow]

I want the pr project estimation!

For my project

[icy berry]

i work pr hour, but i used to work project based

[autumn snow]

Here

[icy berry]

so estimate your expected work hours, use it to calculate the price for the project, and maybe adjust it after the calculation if it looks a bit off.

[autumn snow]

Ok so is 560 a decent amount?

I think my client scammed me he said i can give u 100+ dollar i fell for it idiot🤦‍♂️ 😑

The problem is i dont have any dev friends!

[icy berry]

i would not call it decent, but im not in a possition where I do freelance work, it is on the very lowest end of the spectrum

[autumn snow]

U on a full time job?

R u at google ??

Lol

Donno u maybe!

[icy berry]

yes, im an full time employee

i do not work at google, i do not want to move into the capital

google are more for younger people not for old senior developers 😄

[autumn snow]

Thanks for helping me out btw where r u from..i have to move there i want a 100 dollar per hour job

[autumn snow]

Lol!! But i think they pay!! More

[icy berry]

i live in Norway, but sallaries are quite normalized around the world.

[autumn snow]

Ohh so can't move to there😂😂

K anyways byee thank u👍🏻

!close

[icy berry]

this is not a help channel you can close! 😄

[dry sapphire]

if you have enough permissions... 🙂

[icy berry]

right 😄

[autumn snow]

Ohh forgot abt it😅

[digital fjord]

@polar ruin try to provide more specific advice than just google. It's pretty much impossible to tell good and bad resources apart just by search results.

[drowsy lynx]

Developer need to get motivated to start a blog and share their learnings and experiences. There will always be someone out there in a situation that needs your expertise. https://predigt.dev/this-is-why-this-year-you-need-to-start-a-blog

[vapid jay]

Or a YouTube channel

[shy quiver]

In looking at positions for or as a Python developer, how do you all get started. When I read the job requirements for the positions available, it seems almost unattainable unless you get a break or something. They all seem to want multi-year experience, many multi-language skill, databases, etc. I just started learning Python near the start of this year. I am, of course, no expert, but I want to start pursuing a job as a developer so I can get some experience not just in the language, but also in the team/corporate development environment and process. None of the jobs I have looked at thus far come even close to seeming welcoming to someone looking for such.

[onyx cypress]

Is robotics and AI gonna be in demand for the future?

[radiant cloak]

hai

[vapid jay]

absolutely yeah

[radiant cloak]

how can i make so butifull with python in wich fileds

career

[dreamy sonnet]

Hey, I have very little knowledge with coding and python in terms of career and skill development. Is it okay if I rush a few questions to be spoon fed a little?

[radiant cloak]

ok

looo

[dreamy sonnet]

Context. ( not important)
I finished studying vfx/film with a degree in 2 years and an extra two years afterwords with no job but I'm starting to struggle with the idea of making a career out of it. Just from being burnt out and lost of passion.

So I need to do something to make my parents happy and for me to feel safe for my future, getting a full time job to make up loss of career/loans/saving and getting different degree for a safer future.

I'm used to long hours on computer in a state of flow just grinding from vfx and python is used to create custom tools for vfx or another language called vex is used. The high pay, job prospects and if I ever get my passion back with vfx the programming will allow me to be a better artist.

Questions
1.
If I grind 10 hours a day, an average or below average person. How long do you think it would take to be good enough to apply for a job. I plan on going university (sake of my parents no option) but there are boot camps with a few months promising to be job ready, does it take years or month?

Would it be okay to just learn python and get a decent job with that. (since its related to vfx i don't mind learning it, whereas everything else id rather not obviously if its needed as fundamentals or have a general knowledge of all but mainly socializing in python)

Im guessing university/degree isn't actually needed? Your portfolio and projects showing proof would matter more but I'm only passing this from my knowledge of vfx and its similarities.

basically I'm just looking for a rough understanding of this and maybe some reassurance this would be safe and possible. Cuz I don't want to do psychology, medicine, physiotherapy, engineering then end up changing my mind to a different course from it being too hard or I learn more and become more mature.

lmao

fml, at least I asked first before writing it

[white karma]

From what I’m told just knowing python alone and getting a job is rather difficult. Not impossible, just difficult

I’ve branched out significantly since I started, found my footing learning how to create websites and just recently deployed one online using heroku

@dreamy sonnet also, grinding for that long is a sure fire way to burn yourself out completely before you’ve even truly began. I speak from experience

[dreamy sonnet]

I was under the assumption you could pick a language, learn it then just apply that to a job

How would it be approached instead so its not rather difficult, if theres another way. Also if you don't mind me asking how many hours would you recommend or that its expected per day to work on programming

I just expect 10 hours from myself just from the average working week 8am - 6pm 5 days a week

[white karma]

Again it’s not really the amount of hours you do, so much as it is you understanding the practices

The key is to get yourself into a routine of sorts in the beginning, practicing the concepts little by little until you can do them without really thinking about it

It’s also important to understand your daily limit and not push yourself past it if you absolutely don’t have to, you’re learning how to do what you want to do, you’re not necessarily on someone’s payroll yet

Lastly, as I’ve seen many people post here before, the best way to learn is to find a project you want to do and learn how to do it

[dreamy sonnet]

yea, obvious things but probably why i lost my passion for my last "career"

[white karma]

@dreamy sonnet Dude I feel you, I took film as an elective in high school for 2 years and the entire ordeal turned me completely away from the industry

[golden tundra]

@dreamy sonnet My experience is that you have to receive on the job training anyways pretty much no matter what. Assuming you’re coming in entry level, they probably expect you to need some training. I learned a whole new language for one. So sheer knowledge is not going to do it. There isn’t an expected number for how much to work on programming. It’s more measured in things you’ve accomplished

Take this with a grain of salt because I have a CS degree and so didn’t try to look for postings without the requirement, but most of the postings I’ve seen do seem to want a college degree anyways. There are of course companies fine without it, but I haven’t seen a huge amount of those.

I know some companies may count coding boot camp style programs as education though

I also think most jobs tend to want you to know more than one language. If you’re a web dev, you’ll probably need HTML, CSS, JavaScript and potentially JS libraries like React/Angular, plus potentially another language or two for backend work.

As a general vague dev, some of the more in demand languages I’ve seen are C++, Java, C#.

The thing is, I did a pretty traditional route with college and all that and so the places offered me internships and jobs and whatnot had a basic idea of what they could expect out of me and so I don’t know how the expectations change if you’re not a college grad, if you’re a self taught dev and so more of an unknown quantity.

I’m not saying this to discourage you, I just think your expectations probably need to be adjusted if you want to pursue this path. Keep in mind that I’m not exactly an expert on this, but I do have a CS job and have done a fair amount of CS interviews, so I’m drawing from my experiences there.

My personal advice would be to start with Python but don’t end with it. You’ll make yourselves a lot more hireable if you pick up more than one language. I think Python is a good beginner language and would recommend Java as a next step

Java is fairly popular in industry from what I’ve seen and it’s similar enough to a lot of other languages to make picking them up easier

My understanding is that Python is mostly used in industry for data science-y things. Unfortunately, data science requires fancy math. So if you want a data science position, I think you might have to do some advanced math too

Oh wait, I feel like I do need to add though, for the record, that coding boot camps can be very shady. (I saw one that said their last class of UX designers had 100% placement success, but they only had one student).

Do your research if you plan to contemplate that as an option

[vapid jay]

Are the US salaries really that good 😛

[white karma]

Can’t speak for the rest of the US but they’re pretty good in California

[true harness]

around the tech hubs, since the housing is so expensive

[north bear]

Hi guys

I live in Iran and am looking for a job in data analysis in Canada

Do you know such a job?

[marsh wind]

@jade prawn recruting not allowed here

[jade prawn]

@marsh wind okay

[formal pine]

Is this server for making career choices

[white karma]

Career advice

[peak halo]

There's a link to the Python job board in the channel description. Thanks for being understanding about our rules.

[dusky fulcrum]

do you get to work at home as programmer

[white karma]

Sure

[trail merlin]

So what would be some good portfollio projects for python, am 14 and want to be a software developer. havent done a ton in python, probably about intermediatte level

ping me pls

[ember imp]

make a game

[trail merlin]

a game..... :/

really

i hate games with a passion

[distant crow]

that's really sad that you hate games with a passion yet stream minecraft on twitch

(according to both your twitter account and twitch account linked in your discord profile)

it's sad when you do things you don't enjoy. it would be better to achieve a better work-life balance

we've all been there, haven't we

[white karma]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone say they hate games

[gusty ferry]

so I posted the questiong in #python-discussion but maybe here is better. What is the best way to get certified in python?

[white karma]

You don’t really need certification, just some projects to show you know what you’re doing.

[gusty ferry]

gottcha, thank u

[copper gazelle]

What are some good places, like discord servers and idea to freelance?

for python ofc

@ me

[hexed moon]

Freelance no idea

But technically if they want x done you can do it in any language

Your gigs are not normally cari g about tech they want solutions

Unless they getting you to do their hokework

Homework

[crude crown]

@harsh patio I've caught up with what you wrote in the past few days. I'm really glad that you've been able to nail some job offers. Congrats man!

[dreamy sonnet]

thanks for the reply and advice

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @vapid jay until 2020-11-28 01:44 (9 minutes and 59 seconds) (reason: duplicates rule: sent 4 duplicated messages in 10s).

[harsh patio]

@crude crown thanks a ton! I accepted an offer Friday. It was a hard decision but it was extremely reassuring that I managed multiple offers

[dry sapphire]

anyone have any views on ThoughtWorks (as an employer)?

[crude crown]

I have a friend of mine who was going to join them as a PO in Barcelona. But the job offer was cancelled due to COVID

don't really know/heard about them more upclose apart from this situation.

[dry sapphire]

what does PO stand for

[crude crown]

Product Owner

[dry sapphire]

oh hm

[crude crown]

aka the new "project managers" and office politics warriors

[dry sapphire]

I have never heard that term here

🥴

TIL

[crude crown]

well... it's not a bleeding edge role

it's part of the zeitgeist in the SW industry for at least a decade now

but in more "old-fashioned" companies you have project managers instead of product owners

[dry sapphire]

huh, really

in all the companies I've worked/applied for (mostly early-stage startups) here the predominant term is still PM

[crude crown]

yeah. A move in the past decade or two has been the move on thinking about initiatives from projects to products

[dry sapphire]

the only PO I thought of was "procurement officer"

[crude crown]

PM can also be shorthand for a product manager

that's the official role name used in my current company, which is a scale up with around 1200 people.

[dry sapphire]

yeah, not distinguishing between project and product manager, more between PM and PO

so I guess it's more "manager" vs "owner"

[crude crown]

for me... Product manager is the same thing as product owner

might not be in the textbook definition

but from what I understand of the roles... they're interchangeable really.

[dry sapphire]

yeah, that's what I would think, too

[crude crown]

apart from old-fashioned companies, research projects and EU funded projects also work with that project like mentality with Gantt charts, work packages and other fun stuff like that.

[lone slate]

hi

[heady fern]

Howdy folks, I am looking for a someone who has a Computer Science degree who would be able to answer me 5 simple interview questions. This is a major project for me so if someone could please help me, I would greatly appreciate it. Please private DM if you are interested in helping a fellow student out. Thank you !

[polar ruin]

im going to get a career in coding in brainfuck

[ember imp]

sounds pretty common

can get a nice job though

[vapid jay]

oh yeah being a 6th grader, career is kinda blowing up, B+s, As, A+s, looks like its booming

[vapid jay]

hello guys

im trying to find someone to teach me python for free.Sorry i dont have the money :)

[viral swallow]

google is your best friend in this case 🙂

[restive sage]

You might consider looking for some free textbooks online. I know that the pdf's of "automate the boring stuff" and "fluent Python" can be found by a simple google search!

[vapid jay]

really thanks

[marsh wind]

Gannt chart is not a bad thing tho to have some rough idea about project planning

[trail merlin]

i worded that wrong.....
I hate making games

[distant crow]

yes, Gannt charts are ok, just tedious to make (but necessarily so because it forces you to think about the project). Enforcing sticking to everything laid out in the Gantt chart though... that's no fun, and no fun for the people involved

because that's basically saying that the plan made right at the beginning of the project at a time when (by definition) there is most uncertainty, is and always will be the best plan

[vapid jay]

Hello meseta

Wanna be freinds?

[distant crow]

When you're doing a hardware project, one that requires long cycles of development, fabrication, and testing, where tooling costs are high, it makes sense. You can't iterate quickly and course-correct, because it takes weeks to source new parts and can cost thousands to get new prototypes made. Gantt charts came out of that traditional manufacturing processes

Software is different. cost to change is very low, and the rigidity of traditional waterfall (which Gantt charts embody) was stifling

[vapid jay]

Hello

Do you code?

I bet you do

[distant crow]

no, I'm an imposter. I only pretend to code

[vapid jay]

Hmm really

[vapid jay]

By the looks of this it seems like your not an imposter

[distant crow]

purple was not an imposter

[shadow moss]

meseta, there are days I wish I did waterfall

because Agile development can be constant of "GET THIS OUT DOOR AS MVP, WE ARE CHANGING TO THIS FEATURE, WE CAN COME UP WITH REQUIREMENTS FOR Y LATER"

[distant crow]

I literally still have to do waterfall for some projects due to working with external partners or grants that are really rigid about this kind of thing. and it sucks

both have problems, especially if implemented badly. on the balance I'd rather deal with the problems of agile because you can defend against a lot of the issues you mention

those same issues happen in waterfall, but it's easy for middle managers to hide behind procedure. any change requests are simply met with "can't do that, project's already planned". However, the same should be in agile, the response should also be "can't do that, next sprint's already planned", yet for some reason they don't push back on it, and "agile" is used as an excuse to allow changes to happen without allocating the requisite time and work to implement a change (which aren't zero)

I'd put it down to bad implementation, and spineless middle management. which ironically is the problem waterfall "avoids", nobody needs to have a spine and stand up to change requests and hold others making those change requests accountable for the consequences because the framework empowers them to defend the status quo

which in itself is its weakness

ultimately, if your middle management is not doing their job and unwilling to challenge requests from clients and upper management, and protect the time and work of developers, things are going to suck, no matter the methodology

and I say this not from a theoretical or a developer point of view, but as former middle management who failed to do these things, and saw projects set up to fail because I, very personally and specifically I, failed to stick my neck out and say "if you want this feature, we're going to have to drop these other three". I was too eager to please, and didn't implement Agile well, and didn't think enough about the consequences

lessons learned. and I still see this happening around me. It's not easy, there are lots of pitfalls, but I'm now certain that 90% of the time someone in software says "agile sucks" is because of issues like this that are preventable, but require some work, some experience, and some backbone

[crude crown]

don't we all? :V

[vapid jay]

here a funny question. applying for a software dev job. would it be good to show examples of my code and my discord bot as he asks for my own project. would that help increase my chances of getting the job? ahah

[crude crown]

for entry-level positions sure.

[marsh wind]

That's something very insightful.

Where did you move from mid management?

I still have to learn that lesson, just recently (and perhaps too soon in my career) moved from data scientist to the data scientist /project manager(or product manager/owner whatever it should be called I really don't know or care) and sometimes I really feel what you just said

[distant crow]

senior management I guess

but I'm always at small companies, so it's always doing a bit of both

good luck with the career move, and don't worry about it being too soon, we're never really ready for a role, if we were, we'd never learn anything

[marsh wind]

True I guess. Just that I still have lot to learn code /DS /ML/devops that I would love to learn and use. But know I have way less time to do that or even code

Probably more than half of my time goes into discussions with clients and devs about app/business logic and architecture

20-30% rest is testing and validation and priority definition/planning

Not that I regret the move, or don't like doing what I do. I just enjoy a lot the tech side od things and getting my own hands dirty

[distant crow]

yeah, that's a hard balance to keep

if there's any advice I'd give, is to somehow negotiate with your employer to let you occasionally spend a couple months focusing on tech and keeping your skills sharp. Maybe that's also a good opportunity to generate opportunities internally for more junior team members to gain some leadership experience

I've not done that deliberately myself, but when I switch jobs, I'm usually winding down responsibilities, and finding more time for tech, and I always end up getting a lot better at it. I think if I had the opportunity to, I'd negotiate some proper structured time to do that

[marsh wind]

This my first industry experience and only 8 months so far. So have not gone through that switching case yet :) will keep in mind

[fallen dew]

Kinda random, but has anyone here ever switched from accounting to programming/dev job?

Been having a blast learning python lately, already proficient with Excel but only starting to get my feet wet with programming. I can already tell that python can help me do a few things more efficiently in my job, might be helpful to know python and probably SQL if I want to transition into a financial analyst or something like that

At this point it’s def too late for me to go to school full time again so I’m learning what I can at my own slow pace. Hoping that there are opportunities out there that’ll consider someone with only a bachelor’s in accounting and some programming skills

[vapid jay]

Hi, what can I do as a startup if I don't have qualifications but know basic stuff in python.

To earn qualifications and stuff to further my career

[lusty magnet]

@azure pike

@latent mauve

[summer roost]

some universities are designed in a way that encourages internships or co-ops - your school might be able to point you to a list of companies, or even curated job postings. Other than that, most big companies do internships - look at the companies that sponsor your local Python conferences and check whether they have internship programs.

and if you're not in school yet, choosing a school based on its internship opportunities is a good idea. Schools with co-op programs are really excellent at helping students get work experience.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/internship-programs

[shadow mist]

What is the most efficient way to land a job? I've been submitting resumes online and so far it has not been productive. Any advice?

[flint cedar]

how to start with python

and what about AI and ML

[edgy palm]

make a account on Kaggle

they will help you get started on ml and data science with python

super easy courses man

Kaggle is owned by Google and is the right place for ml or data science guys

[flint cedar]

ok thanks buddy

[edgy palm]

yeah

[edgy palm]

depends on the startup but you could do some automation or machine learning stuff for them

that is really hot 🔥 right now

[random vortex]

How much mathematics do you need for ML?

[edgy palm]

there is a theory part and practical part
for theory you need maths to understand the working of algorithms but for practical you don't really need math you can make simple ml models for regression or classification problem

just get started on the models and which ever model you like go and read the theory

[random vortex]

Sounds good thanks

[weary hatch]

guys what does except mean in python?

[distant crow]

catching an exception. wrong channel for that question, try the general chanel

[gilded ember]

Hey how can I get experience in coding jobs I’m a first timer

[hushed gyro]

i want to make good money

my only goal in life

[ripe wasp]

is there market for python desktop application programmers? Specifically pyside2 or pyqt5

[wispy spoke]

Yeah u should check indeed

Or set up a linkedin profile

[ripe wasp]

on it already, will have to try harder

[boreal bay]

Yo

@ripe wasp when did you start learning python?

[ripe wasp]

8 years ago

[boreal bay]

Woah. That's a huge time.

I lose my confidence sometimes. Asked myself is it worth learning

[ripe wasp]

It has been a cool journey, from automating silly stuff to create Bots, Desktop apps, websites backend, a fully ERP, etc

[wispy spoke]

You hsould try and get a work visa to the US

With that much experience

[ripe wasp]

and looking back, I learnt a lot but I never had a chance to prove it, and ended up in a job where programming is not even my secondary task

[boreal bay]

Why don't you freelance?

[ripe wasp]

too much competition and I'd rather to have an stable income

not knowing if you'll earn money X month isn't my thing

so I prefer to work for a company/business

[compact pivot]

hi

[boreal bay]

Understood. I feel you bro

There are tons of devs out there

[boreal bay]

Howdy?

[compact pivot]

you called me in here

[boreal bay]

Yeah...

[ripe wasp]

my point is: the journey that you guys are starting now is exciting but it can also be scary sometimes, so even if your plan A is python, make sure you have a backup plan because life can go wrong like it did to me xD

[boreal bay]

Thought you wanna continue the conversation

[boreal bay]

Now you're scaring me :(

[ripe wasp]

sorry man, just being realistic

we all want to earn a ton of money

but not everyone makes it

[boreal bay]

Yeah, that's what we actually want.

[compact pivot]

im 13 so i just wanna learn while young

[boreal bay]

Never give up 👊

[ripe wasp]

now you are lucky, you have a lot of time to learn, make sure you take advantage of that, mountain

[wispy spoke]

I know someone in my school who learned Web design at the age of 7 lol

[boreal bay]

I'm just wondering if I'm learning the best Language out there

[compact pivot]

python is the best starter

[ripe wasp]

if you ask that question on any programming language forum/discord/etc, everyone will always say "yes", @boreal bay

[wispy spoke]

if ur looking to make money python is not the route to take

[compact pivot]

than i might try to shift to roblox devolping

[boreal bay]

Basic or pro?

[wispy spoke]

wym?

[ripe wasp]

if you ask in here, python is the best. If you ask in java, java is the best, if you ask in C++, that one is the best xD see where I am going?

[boreal bay]

Is he a pro now?

[wispy spoke]

roblox's engine actually uses python so you should continue learning python

[wispy spoke]

Yes, he has made quite a few applications. I don't know him personally he is just in my school

[boreal bay]

!!!! Wdym?

[compact pivot]

i need a better PC so im gonna use shadow till i can get a good PC

[boreal bay]

It your pc consumes more ram, shift into linux ig

[wispy spoke]

Java is the best if you wanna make the most money. swift devs make a lot of money too but yeah it's not for everyone

@boreal bay how old r u btw?

[compact pivot]

4gbs of ram idk think linux will make a diffrence

[boreal bay]

20

[wispy spoke]

Did you major in CS?

[boreal bay]

It will, shift into Linux Mint or Kubuntu

[ripe wasp]

you are still very young, you'll have plenty of chances ahead

[boreal bay]

Sorry? Didn't understand

[compact pivot]

if im going to linux im going to POP os

[wispy spoke]

did you go to college? If so what did you major in, becuase you should continue on that

[versed pawn]

what is the best coding language for making games?

[wispy spoke]

C#

[ripe wasp]

c

[versed pawn]

ok

[boreal bay]

Finished my college

[wispy spoke]

C# for unity

[boreal bay]

Now preparing for going Turkey

[ripe wasp]

It's because of performance, Mystical

[versed pawn]

ok

thanks

[ripe wasp]

for games where u don't need much performance, like 2ds, any other language is very good, even python

[versed pawn]

yeah

[ripe wasp]

but if you want to push ahead like a triple AAA, then... yeah, C

[versed pawn]

mostly 3d games is what I want to do

[wispy spoke]

An early career Software Engineer with 1-4 years of experience earns an average total compensation of ₺19,727 based on 66 salaries. A mid-career Software Engineer with 5-9 years of experience earns an average total compensation of ₺22,949 based on 44 salaries.

That's around 2.5k USD, Soruce : google

[ripe wasp]

I have a friend who works for a triple AAA company as programmer, she had to learn C++

[boreal bay]

@wispy spoke why do you ask that btw?

[versed pawn]

where can I learn c

[boreal bay]

Wot!

[compact pivot]

the internet

[versed pawn]

yeah but what software?

[boreal bay]

19000 lira/year?

[ripe wasp]

sadly this is the python discord, other questions like that one might fall out of our knowledge, mystical

[compact pivot]

idk

[versed pawn]

ok

i will search

[ripe wasp]

I bet there are communities for those languages

[boreal bay]

Yes, there are actually

[versed pawn]

yeah

let me chack

[ripe wasp]

well I'm going to sleep, I have to work early tomorrow... and I hate SIPTRUNK 😤

[versed pawn]

check*

[ripe wasp]

good night everyone!

[versed pawn]

ok

i should probably master python before c

[boreal bay]

Probably.

I might learn Java or C after I finish Python

[compact pivot]

you never finsish python

python finshes you

[versed pawn]

hehe

[vapid jay]

who are you so wise in the ways of computer languages

[compact pivot]

i basicly crtl C to ctrl V any cheesy karate that says you don't finish karate it finishes you

[little plover]

Hi

[vapid jay]

no

[hexed moon]

What software do you learn c with well same as python a text editor and a compiler :p

[formal pine]

what does import do?

[vapid jay]

is galvanize.com worth it?

for data science

[formal pine]

wrong chat

[vapid jay]

it is a bootcamp for a career? @formal pine

[onyx cypress]

Hello, I want to make tech for space and i want to make robots that make homes and mine asteroids in space should i make a start up? just for that?

[vapid jay]

YES

[distant crow]

if you have a unique idea, or capability, sure

however, I'd suggest finding something better than "i want to". Something more like "There's a problem I want to solve that nobody else is addressing" or "I have a unique insight into this that would give me an edge" or "my experience means I can do this faster/better/more reliably than competitors"

[distant crow]

What do all you fine people think about mentorship?

[supple copper]

@boreal bay Hey, i live in Turkey

[distant crow]

I've been thinking about getting into online mentorship (as in me mentoring), but have been unsure about time commitment expectations, and stuff like that. Has anyone worked with a mentor online before?

[boreal bay]

Hi bro

I was really hoping to talk with a Turkish

[supple copper]

İf its okey for you we can get into a voice channel

What do you do for living, why coming to Turkey?

[boreal bay]

I'm a student

Finished my college

Now hoping to get myself admitted into a public university in Turkey

To me, Turkey seems the cheapest country I can afford.

[supple copper]

If you finished college why do you want to get admitted to a college?

[boreal bay]

• I'm a muslim, so it's good to have Muslim people around us.

In my country, the education system is like this

School -> College -> University

[supple copper]

Oh so you finished high school

[boreal bay]

You can say that

[supple copper]

I guess in general college = university

Where do you live currently?

[boreal bay]

I'm trying for METU

Chittagong, Bangladesh

[supple copper]

I think Turkey is pretty affordable if you bring the money from outside

Cause the value of Turkish Lira is pretty low so a dollar is a like 8TL

[boreal bay]

Yes

10 or 11 bdt is 1TL

[supple copper]

Its very common especially for tourists to come to the best vacational regions in Turkey and live cheap

[boreal bay]

Where do you live in Turkey?

[supple copper]

I live in Istanbul

Metu is in the capital, ankara

[boreal bay]

Is Istanbul costly?

Yes I know

[supple copper]

Well usually Istanbul is more expensive than anatolian cities

[boreal bay]

Understood

What do you do for living?

[supple copper]

Metu is a pretty good university tho

[boreal bay]

I like Bogazici Universitesi more

[supple copper]

Last year i graduated from high school and took the university exam

Currently its my first year in a collage with full scholarship in software engineering

[boreal bay]

Which college?

[supple copper]

You could perhaps look it up

Istinye university

[boreal bay]

Is it public?

[supple copper]

Not sure what do you mean by public but there are many foreign students

[boreal bay]

Public means

Govt. Colleges i guess

I mean, some colleges are cheaper

[supple copper]

Bogazici is one of the best in Turkey

[boreal bay]

I know...

[supple copper]

Ha

No its not public

As i said i won scholarship

Otherwise it was gonna 20k TL a year

[boreal bay]

Ohh now I get it

[supple copper]

In istanbul government colleges are

Bogazici YıldızTechnic

[boreal bay]

It's like 220000 Bdt in here

[supple copper]

Marmara Technic

Istanbul technic

Those are free

[boreal bay]

Is it hard to get admitted into there?

[supple copper]

To which one?

[boreal bay]

I mean, I got great results tho

Bogazici

[supple copper]

What exam did you take, SAT?

[boreal bay]

I just need to do SAT exam

I can't prep for now, because of Corona. No SAT exams are held in this time

[supple copper]

So you meant you had great results in high school?

[boreal bay]

Yeah

GPA 5 on both Secondary school and higher school

Btw, I want to get admitted into English medium, else it would be super hard for me

[supple copper]

Well its perhaps the most diffucult college to get into, in Turkey there is a local exam we dont use SAT so i dont know how much score you need but in our exam they only take the top few hundred out of the 2-3 million people that take the exam every year

[boreal bay]

I need around 1200-1300

650 on maths

[supple copper]

Its not diffucult to get 1300

The equavilent of what you would need to get would be something like 1590 😄

[boreal bay]

I'll try for bogazici, metu, Hacettepe, Istanbul teknik

Really? It isn't that hard?

[supple copper]

Well i once tried it at home

Just to see

I scored 1280

The math is super easy

[boreal bay]

English is hard tho

[supple copper]

Yeah its much harder

[boreal bay]

Do i need TOEFL/IELTS?

[supple copper]

When you get into a college which totally uses English you either need to bring up one of those Toefl etc. Or at the beginning of the year they make an English exam to see if you know English, if you pass you can start immediaetly if you cant then you still get into the college but to learn English for a year

Then you start engineering or whatever

[boreal bay]

Only English for a year?

[supple copper]

Yes

[boreal bay]

You mean, only English!?

[supple copper]

Hahah

Well its not super difficult

[boreal bay]

I don't mean that

I meant, only English for an year would be a waste I guess

[supple copper]

But most people in Turkey take that year bcs they cant understand English well enough to study in College

Yea i got you

[boreal bay]

I wanna do CSE

[supple copper]

I meant you perhaps can pass it

But most Turkish people cant understand college without that year

[boreal bay]

So can't I study on CSE as with English?

I mean, I'll study english, and for cse at the same time

[supple copper]

You cant do both at the same time

First you need to prove that you know well enough english to study in college

Either by passing the test at the beginning of the year or if you fail you get english for a year then you start actual Cse lessons

[boreal bay]

Can you give me a sample question?

Of the English test?

[supple copper]

https://yabancidiller.istinye.edu.tr/sites/yabancidiller.istinye.edu.tr/files/inline-files/WRITING.pdf

https://yabancidiller.istinye.edu.tr/sites/yabancidiller.istinye.edu.tr/files/inline-files/CR - WHAT IS HANDEDNESS - TEXT.pdf

https://yabancidiller.istinye.edu.tr/sites/yabancidiller.istinye.edu.tr/files/inline-files/SR - THE INSTITUTION OF MARRIAGE IN CANADA - TEXT_0.pdf

For listening

You first listen a recording then answer this

https://yabancidiller.istinye.edu.tr/sites/yabancidiller.istinye.edu.tr/files/inline-files/NT - Bill of Rights - QUESTIONS %26 ANSWER KEY.pdf

https://yabancidiller.istinye.edu.tr/sites/yabancidiller.istinye.edu.tr/files/inline-files/SL - Chinese Economy - QUESTIONS %26 ANSWER KEY_0.pdf

These are what i found on my colleges website for sample Istinye English Proficiency Exam

[boreal bay]

It's lile IELTS

Like*

[supple copper]

Yeah

I dont think its too difficult

[boreal bay]

I think the listening test isn't that hard

I did IELTS test for practice and got 35/40

[supple copper]

Perhaps ielts is more difficult than this

In my college

[boreal bay]

Probably

[supple copper]

The minimum you need to get is 75 out of 100

[boreal bay]

Understood, need to prepare my English then

But the English in SAT is totally different tho

[supple copper]

But it is difficult to find colleges who fully educate in english, you either need to get into a top one or paid ones

[boreal bay]

Literally English Literature

[supple copper]

Yeah

[boreal bay]

What's your real name?

[supple copper]

Fatih Nadir

Yours?

[boreal bay]

Farhat

[supple copper]

👍

[boreal bay]

Felt great talking with you @supple copper Hope will meet someday

[supple copper]

Yeah man nice to meet you

I'll send you friend request

@boreal bay Keep me up to date on your progress 🙂

[boreal bay]

I will

Thanks matr

Mate

[opaque basin]

Idk

[rotund glacier]

This might be a basic question, but how do I look into finding work once I've learned Python? I'd say my skills are still pretty basic, but I don't know where to go from here

[crude crown]

@ripe wasp I've worked in Python desktop application development (used PySide1/2 at the time) in the past but I'd say desktop app development in general is a dwindling niche.

[crude crown]

You know, it's something I've read that's important to seeks for too many years now but unfortunately I never had what I could consider a mentor or even someone knowledgeable enough to teach me impactful things when they actually really matter. As a reverse thing, I kind of sometimes taken up a mentor like role (not a full blown thing IMO) in some situations.

having that said, I would still consider using an online mentor service of sorts.

[distant crow]

that's similar to my experience. people kept telling me to get a mentor, but I've never had one

I think I want to start doing some online mentoring, perhaps I will also meet someone willing to mentor me as well along the way

[wispy spoke]

how come data scientists make more than java developers

[true harness]

do they?

[wispy spoke]

at least for me, in my area

[shadow moss]

Java being such a broad language means it’s salary range is much bigger

[crude crown]

I don't think they do in general nowadays and such broad statements aren't that helpful.

but in general... wages for data scientists and software developers are similar-ish in general and quite frankly the ROI is higher as a software developer/engineer.

but yeah, back to the mentoring services thing. With the ongoing march of WFH, I've got a feel that this kind of services will start to become more popular.

[vapid jay]

theres a lot less data scientists then there are java devs

id also wonder if even though anyone can teach themselves either, a lot of data scientist roles would want someone higher skilled? its not just can you do x with the python, but do you actually understand a lot of the higher level maths and and can put together the right correlations

[tardy egret]

In my experience, the data scientists came up with a prototype ML model in Python, then software engineers coded up the production version in Java. It'll probably be different depending where you are.

[vapid jay]

Is there a career path that combines python with accounting/financial analysis?

[rocky sonnet]

Guys i want to do a career in Artificial intelligence. Can u please suggest me or like tell what does it involve and what does it take ?

[fallen dew]

I’m wondering the same thing, but I think the answer is no, not directly. But I’m sure there are some financial analysis jobs that would love to have someone with accounting and programming knowledge beyond just your typical accountant who knows Excel and small scale data mining @vapid jay

I’m hoping, at least. Because that’s what I’m trying to do, coming from an accounting background

SQL is probably a must, knowing python would probably be super useful in some tasks as well

Accounting alone, I’ve learned, is pretty boring and too easy imo

[silent scaffold]

Idk accounting

Im a programmer

[fallen dew]

And promotions/pay seem largely political and based on seniority and not really on your set of skills

I know people in the industry who can barely work their way around a spreadsheet but they get paid a lot of money because they’re “experienced” or passed the CPA exam like 40 years ago lol

Accounting is going to be completely different in a couple decades I think once all the boomers are retired

I’m drifting slightly off topic I think, so I’m gonna stop xD

[vapid jay]

does anyone know if https://www.galvanize.com/data-science-bootcamp-online worth taking for a career in data science?

some info is you don't pay tuition until you get a job 60k and up, down payment of 2k and rest of tuition is $17,980.

[fallen dew]

Damn $18k

It seems cool, but try to do a lot of research beforehand

Asking for money up front is always a red flag, but it could be legit. I’ve seen mixed reviews about bootcamps in general

[vapid jay]

I heard don't pay anymoney upfront untill you got legal papers signed

For places asking up-front

[fallen dew]

Yeah, I’d maybe just search reddit on that one and see if anyone’s posted info about it

[vapid jay]

galvanize is good, its is hack reactor if you want to do some googling

its one of the top 3 swe bootcamps, definately not a scam

but also keep in mind you dont have to bootcamp, and going to a bootcamp wont help beyond what they teach you. its not like a degree, i wouldnt recommend even putting it on a resume

what they teach u is good tho

[crude crown]

funnily enough, I've been wiping up some scripts to automate some work from my father who's an accountant.

the biggest pain point I've been able to observe is to scrape data from shitty web portals

[vapid jay]

this may come in handy @vapid jay not every bootcamp posts info but many of them including galvanize have come together in an effort of honesty and show everything https://cirr.org/data

[crude crown]

but when that kind of paint point is addressed... it really saves a lot of time and mental energy.

if was working in accounting, I would most definitely seek to automate/streamline a lot of things, there's a lot of low hanging fruit.

[opaque basin]

A LOT of low hangin' fruit

[versed pawn]

what type of career can java be used as?

[opaque basin]

C# developers and java programmers who can code are in high demand in niche industries

[silent scaffold]

Idk

[fallen dew]

Yeah, I definitely see a lot of co workers taking FOR-EVER to do some basic stuff in Excel or pulling data from one place and formatting into another

Stuff I can probably already do in less than half the time just knowing Excel formulas and macros, but knowing python can help even more with some of that stuff

It’s funny as fuck to watch someone point and click and format single cells one by one

Or single rows/columns

[crude crown]

work on that toolkit of yours then

it will be necessary in order to keep up with the ever increasing expectations

[golden tundra]

@versed pawn Primarily a Java programmer here. Java or Java like languages seem pretty common in backend work

[novel crag]

hey, anyone here uk based with any thoughts on getting an open uni computing and it degree?

27 here.

[indigo grove]

@wispy spoke, peronally not speaking from experience, but could data scientist earn more because it is still a 'new' profession? Throwing out a guess here

@novel crag, can not help with the open uni degree, but I am currently on an apprenticeship scheme (not digital) and could be a good way to get experiential learning as well as a degree

[novel crag]

can't really get an apprenticeship at 27

[indigo grove]

@novel crag, why not? no age restriction

[novel crag]

oh for real? i think companies get grants

if ure under a certain age

[indigo grove]

Check out the UK Gov site for more info because I knew a teacher in her 40's on an apprenticeship scheme

[vapid jay]

s

@novel crag have you already learnt how to code? I would probably focus on trying to land some apprenticeships / work experience to get into work, but I heard OU is parttime.

[novel crag]

@vapid jay yeah doing it part time just seems weird to me, i'll definitely have to do it full time

[vapid jay]

do you already know how to code?

if you have some projects under your belt it wouldn't hurt to start applying, see how you fare, and then choose what route is best for you

[novel crag]

https://www.github.com/elsoleiro -- i've received some feedback already saying i definitely need a bigger project to show off, so i am working on it

idk if i "know how to code" but

i've applied to 40 jobs and no response.

so i know i need to do something drastic.

@vapid jay

[true harness]

40...

[novel crag]

yeah, all under 25k per year*