You didn’t interact with Rest API?
#career-advice
shadow moss
quiet dune
Yes, of course I did, it's just your context I'm a bit confused...
shadow moss
Find a public REST API like weather or something and use that for your project
quiet dune
Instead of SMS? Part of the SMS thing that I did, was it compared a bunch of SMS gateways that they were subscribed to and chose the cheapest option to send with, is there a way I can "emulate" this?
shadow moss
Not easily and that doesn’t sound crazy flashy
You could a bunch of weather API and figure out hottest and coldest place
quiet dune
I know it's not flashy, but it still almost landed me a job, but a bunch of stuff happened, and I didn't get it 😛
I will figure something out.
If I make a personal website, in Django, is it a good idea to have it public github, and have my projects on there or is there a better way?
shadow moss
Code GitHub, personal site wherever
GitHub isn’t as important as good resume highlighting your year of experience
quiet dune
Okay, thank you so much for the advice 😄
regal venture
echo swift
sage plume
It's that easy? Well, that guy on YouTube did say it would be easy to get hired with Python skills! /s
sage ginkgo
what are the chances to get a software developer job, being self-taught, knowing decent python and c++, but no previous programming job experience?
woeful spruce
I'd imagine anything is possible, you would just need to exhibit your work somehow
so it would take extra effort
be self-motivated to do projects
sage ginkgo
idk, man, been looking at vacancies, everyone is looking for some work experience
i freelanced a project(still working on it) some api, discord, game statistics thing
woeful spruce
I feel as though software developers with experience (and by no means am I software developer, but I do work with a few) can bypass showing off projects and such because they wouldn't be able to share the work they did previously because it would be owned by their employer
they say they are looking for work experience, but guess what?.....most of those people already have jobs and they might not be able to afford them
sage ginkgo
true... true
woeful spruce
before COVID hit, my department head was desperate for any programmer for our teams. He ended up hiring some guy straight out of University. Had zero work experience.
I couldn't believe it. The only way he could probably hire one with experience was to poach one from another company or pay through the nose
so if you are willing to take a hit on salary, that is one way to get your foot in the door, potentially
and if you do good work, you can either leave or demand a raise after a year or two
also, more experienced programmers have higher expectations of their employer and what software they will be developing, autonomy, etc
sage ginkgo
gives me hope, so you'd say it's a good idea to just apply, ignoring "2+ years commercial <language> experiance"
woeful spruce
some only want to work with specific languages
I would ignore it
what people don't mention about job ads is that the listing is for an 'ideal candidate'
...and sometimes does that unicorn exist for the price they are willign to pay
sage ginkgo
haha)
woeful spruce
my job said they wanted someone with Autocad experience as well....but good luck finding someone who can script and do autocad work
just show you are willing to learn I guess
definitely have line for your github page, if possible
distant crow
there's quite a lot of mechatronics engineers these days floating around, it's quite popular study at universities now
sage ginkgo
yes, github, i was thinking about what to put on there
distant crow
they tend to be mostly mecheng students picking up embedded skills. fewer ee/cs students picking up mechanical engineering for some reason
woeful spruce
oh
well anyway, any work with data right now is pretty hot in the market. I'm not sure why, but I don't find dealing with data to be that daunting.
so if you can do anything data-related, that probably helps
sage ginkgo
yes, data and webdev seems to be trending
woeful spruce
oh yea, webdev too
never done any web development, so I am not sure how hard that is
sage ginkgo
ohhh im struggling so much learning django rn
woeful spruce
but every business wants a website these days, so, yea, demand is there
and best way to be your own boss eventually
I feel like websites need tons of QA though
sage ginkgo
quite hard when your pockets are empty
woeful spruce
yup
sage ginkgo
also, how do you people deal with phone calls? I get so nervous on phone, unbelievable(
woeful spruce
most developers are introverted
sage ginkgo
)
woeful spruce
I doubt they expect top notch communication skills
writing decent e-mails/messages is sufficient
I just be very umm....PC when I do interviews
and more sycophantic than usual
it is soul sucking but it works, sadly
wild spear
You should maybe work on social skills too
sage ginkgo
jasons, how did you get your first job, bud?
woeful spruce
well I don't come from a comp-sci background
sage ginkgo
still curious
woeful spruce
so I bounced around doing employee data in HR
lots of , bleh, temp gigs with more data
and eventually got enough experience for this data developer role
took 3 interviews
and I just demonstrated that I can learn quickly, open to ideas, and that I aim to automate what I can
I am sure the candidates I was up against weren't great or anything (which helped)
I started automating my excel work with macros and it just grew from there. New challenges arise and I try to find ways to automate boring tasks and python is great at that because it is user-friendly with lots of libraries
oh yea, I also learned SQL, forgot about that. I think that helped alot.
sage ginkgo
ah, i'm from UK, just wanted to ask, if you know what's a good place to look for a job?
cuz i feel like im missing something looking at those vacancies online
woeful spruce
wish I knew more about the UK
it is tougher now because of Coronavirus though
hopefully things will get better in 2021
it was easier when the economy was good to grab an entry level role
sage ginkgo
hopefully, also is it an alright idea to get a side job(at the pub or something) while looking for a proper one?
woeful spruce
of course
sage ginkgo
then i guess: "Please, sir, wear your mask"
distant crow
I suggest you try to develop your communication skills, it's not optional
good communication is important, not just being able to do it, but also having the instinct for what needs to be communicated and when
sage ginkgo
yes, great idea, the problem is that english is not my first language and i'm always frightened to fuck up
woeful spruce
you type it well
that is probably most important in a tech role anyway
more e-mails than conversations these days imo
sage ginkgo
okay thx, bud
distant crow
most dev communications happen on slack rather than emails
which is basically the same experience as you're having right now
woeful spruce
yup, it is surreal, but this is how they mainly communicate
and the odd zoom/skype meeting
sage ginkgo
@distant crow what would you recommend to improve socials skills, just moved towns, don't know any one at all
distant crow
I have never had good social skills in the way you're describing it
I'm probably the wrong person to ask
however, essential communication skills for work? it's all about being proactive, and knowing when and how to get your point across, and sometimes it's about picking your battles too
sage ginkgo
okay, thx guys
distant crow
I think the key point for anyone just starting out with work is; nobody knows what you're doing unless you tell them. and if your manager doesn't know what you're doing for long enough. they're going to either keep asking you, or they're going to start telling you what you should be doing
don't let it get to that stage, it's not a good way to work
sage ginkgo
okay, thx for spending your time getting me motivated and informed
neat grove
!warn @dusty elbow Offering pay and advertising is unacceptable in this server.
inner wrenBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @dusty elbow.
neat grove
@sullen cloak check out #voice-verification
dusty elbow
sorry
frozen sun
is there any job posting channel?
vast shoal
@frozen sun We do not allow recruitment or job-seeking on this server, unfortunately.
You can look in the topic of this channel for some suggestions of alternative services for this purpose.
vapid jay
Hi I want to ask something
vast shoal
Go ahead
vapid jay
I want to get a job at Google so I came at last a decision that I will leran python for web development then other so am I correct
marsh wind
job at google is very vague
vast shoal
A lot of positions at Google will require you to know programming and/or web development, so it's possible it could improve your chances.
marsh wind
in fact language there would be less important than actual skills and knowledge, such as data structures and alogrithm as they test their candidates a lot based on that
though it will never hurt - web dev is huge
vast shoal
Python is probably not a bad choice of starting language.
vapid jay
Yes I am just 15 so I thought to start with python
As it's poplar easy and good
Helpful too
vast shoal
I would agree with that.
inner wrenBOT
vast shoal
I work mostly in fintech, but that sometimes involves webdev.
marsh wind
Yes I am just 15
that's important piece of info 🙂 in this case yeah, totally start with python, you can grasp a lot of concepts with it and will help you perhaps to find what ticks with you in programming
marsh wind
oh they do if you mean 3 guys, joe, lemon and Vez
vast shoal
You're welcome
marsh wind
np. and if any specific questions (and if you haven't seen yet) - we have great help system #❓｜how-to-get-help
vapid jay
Ookk now I will start web development yoooppp
@vast shoal accept my friend request
Oohh you were moderator I thought normal people
Please
vast shoal
Sorry, I get too many friend requests, so I generally don't accept them unless I know the person well.
vapid jay
Oo do you won't accept it's ok NP 😁
@vast shoal have you develped any project yett
?
vast shoal
@vapid jay Yes, many.
shadow blade
this is just blabla (too bad, there is no non-advanced conversation channel) but I am privately (and maybe later also career-wise) really interested in learning python, so I am so happy I found that channel on discord! Thanks to the moderators for all your work! I am so thankful for this opportunity. Doing the beginners course online at the university of Toronto - from your list - now. 😆
tall swan
Hello everybody, can anyone tell me is
ASUS TUF Gaming A15 Laptop 15.6" FHD 144Hz Ryzen 7 4800H, GTX 1660Ti 6GB GDDR6 Graphics (16GB RAM/1TB HDD + 256GB NVMe SSD. Is it a future proof laptop atleast for 6-8 years for coding and web design and graphic design. N gaming for time pass (no important)
peak halo
@tall swan that might be a question for #tools-and-devops but hardware considerations is often outside the scope of our server.
tall swan
Ok
sonic mango
Do I need a certificate to get a job or do they test and give jobs?
vapid jay
I think you would need some sort of degree if you want to get into a big company. @sonic mango
true harness
not necessarily
shadow moss
Degree helps a ton, certificate might help some, it's very situational and dependent on your local job market
shadow moss
Depends on location, but it's possible but right now, it's pretty hard
lethal orbit
to find the first job with python , do i need to focus on one career path in python ? or i need to have different skills for different paths in python ? ( am starting to learn python from scratch by myself and i have another degree out of programming )
wide zinc
Python noob here with limited ml practice. What do my job prospects look like? I don't have a degree.
coarse jackal
Degree helps a ton, certificate might help some, it's very situational and dependent on your local job market
@shadow moss what do you mean with degree?
shadow moss
college degree
vapid jay
a degree 😂
shadow moss
I'm American, degree means College Degree, as always Career recommendations are very country dependant
thus my qualifier of "it's very situational and dependent on your local job market"
vapid jay
US CS degree is a gate to $100k salary
coarse jackal
i guess IT related degree? 😂
vapid jay
its mad how much they get paid
mortal vapor
I mean I don't know about jobs without degree, I've been learning python cuz I want to do Astrophysics and it's a useful skill for that or in general
shadow moss
because I can't cover every country and their different educational system
swift orbit
Hi guys. What is realistic salary for a young professional with bachelor degree in the US after all the taxes?
drifting jetty
¯_(ツ)_/¯
vapid jay
google it bruh
drifting jetty
Good degree, good money
swift orbit
I did, but I want to hear stories from ppl
shadow moss
the one to blame, it depends on location
vapid jay
just sweat out algos / data structs do well in uni and get a faang interview
pseudo helm
It will entirely depend on your location.
You could make 150k on the west coast and be broke as hell living in a van.
vapid jay
don't think it's that extreme 😄
pseudo helm
lol
vapid jay
you guys seen the salary for Two Sigma internships
swift orbit
150 gross or net?
vapid jay
its like $130k + housing while in university
shadow moss
I'd say around 60-70k before taxes depending, more if you went more elite university and more if you are in major US city
swift orbit
I'd say around 60-70k before taxes depending, more if you went more elite university and more if you are in major US city
@shadow moss and taxes are about 40%?
vapid jay
do people in the US know of St Andrews university?
pseudo helm
You should read up on the google engineers who live on campus or near campus in vans and such. Cause affording a house is nuts there when normal rent for a studio easily 4 figures.
Yet here I am working remote in central Illinois where I bought my 2000sqft home for 140k in a nice neighborhood near a private college.
swift orbit
well I see, thanks, that's kinda cool
shadow moss
All my homies, never heard of it, is that American or UK?
vapid jay
It's in Scotland 😄
distant crow
I've heard of it
shadow moss
your biggest issue coming to work in United States will be visa (Unless you are American LPR/Citizen)
pseudo helm
Degree-less btw and been in the industry since the web was new and we were begging our clients to create websites but they were waiting to see if it was a fad. :D
You can definitely go far without a degree, especially if you don't care about working at FAANG-like companies. Even they're starting to relax on the degrees.
shadow moss
they are relaxing on degrees for entry level
you will hit ceiling at many companies without a degree
swift orbit
your biggest issue coming to work in United States will be visa (Unless you are American LPR/Citizen)
@shadow moss what about remote job market though?
pseudo helm
Sure, unless you have experience to back it up. Trick is getting the experience of course.
vapid jay
usaco
i do usaco and interview problems are easy af
The degree mostly just props up your reputation, right? Do you find yourself using your college course in work?
i guess so
shadow moss
if US companies are willing to hire overseas, they will generally target much lower income areas like central America or Indian subcontinent
vapid jay
degree gives you more opportunities
Yea I totally agree but I wonder if people actually use what they learnt from them. E.g. algos, apparently they're not commonly used
pseudo helm
Yeah I'm not saying a degree is worthless. But I will say I've hired way more people without comp sci degrees than with. But I'm not working at FAANGs.
shadow moss
thebouv, I'm talking once you get hired
vapid jay
But it's all alegorical tbh
shadow moss
even if you get hired without a degree, there will be a ceiling most likely
pseudo helm
depends on company, but yes
shadow moss
I don't have a degree and I've been working for a while (10+ years) and I've slammed into that ceiling
vapid jay
damn
swift orbit
if US companies are willing to hire overseas, they will generally target much lower income areas like central America or Indian subcontinent
@shadow moss i dunno bruh i literally live in the fucking hunger games scenario, where guys with masters degree start from smth like 300$ monthly, all I fucking dream is to do something usefull and get smth like 4-5k, dunno how possible is to get remote job for this amount of cash though
shadow moss
we were talking about Scotland
and you asked about US salaries so I assumed you were US citizen/LPR
pseudo helm
I technically only have a high school diploma, lol, and I'm doing pretty good for myself. Been the CTO of a small 50 person agency, been tech co-founder of a couple small startups, worked at Yum leading their digital marketing and work/deploying KFC.com (mm, chicken), and now I'm a director doing emerging tech work and digital transformation.
Be voraciously hungry to learn new things and build new things and poke and prod and break and fix and so forth. It'll take you far. Couple it with a degree if you want for sure.
pseudo helm
But you wouldn't catch me dead at a big company. Yum itself was too big for me imho.
Gotta find a balance between professional satisifaction and salary and the level of the life you want to live.
distant crow
I think you press some buttons and then the lights change. at least that was how I was taught
shadow moss
yea, I'm at big company and don't care for it
true harness
I think you press some buttons and then the lights change. at least that was how I was taught
@distant crow beep boop
distant crow
I see you too are a tech person
I agree with this discussion, not a fan of big companies
vapid jay
FAANG tho 😋
shadow moss
FAANG isn't all that magical these days
distant crow
I get that that's exciting to some, but I'm not a big faan of them
shadow moss
they have a ton of "Sit down and code this feature"
rich dust
Hello guys, I am a final year student and I love python. I have developed backend in flask and APIs with FastAPI but I am not very good with competitive programming. I have also done GSoC with PSF but I am having hard time to find an internship. I have applied to more than 50 companies in past 2-3 months but didn't succeed. I am confused, what should I do?
shadow moss
many companies didn't hire interns this year
shadow moss
all my homies, if you get hired onto FAANG
distant crow
I'm in the UK, faang salary doesn't go brrr over here nearly as much
shadow moss
so many people work for google as contractors, not work at Google
vapid jay
True but you could get sent overseas @distant crow
distant crow
hah, I came back to the UK having worked in SF for 5 years specifically to not be in SF any more
shadow moss
in fact, it's common complaint by many FAANG employees that they have stopped hiring a ton of SWE and outsourcing that work like mad
vapid jay
damn
I heard that Google sent some of their interns to switzerland
and the salary there is a big bonker too
vapid jay
time to grind leetcode and algos 😂
distant crow
well, good luck
pseudo helm
Never look at salaries in a vacuum though; cost of living has to be considered.
Which is why if I worked for Google, but stayed where I live now, I wouldn't make as much on paper as even someone with half the experience that lives in SF.
distant crow
to answer your previous question, I know St Andrews, since I'm in the UK. They're doing very well these days on the league table. I'm not sure the US knows it as well, but I'm sure anyone who's going to look it up will see
pseudo helm
So many companies are now adjusting salary based on where you live if you work remote. GitLab for instance even has a calculator on their site to explain how they do it.
vapid jay
I applied there this year, it looks so rad
distant crow
are you going to get free tuition due to it being in Scotland? do they still do that?
shadow moss
again, if you don't have rights to live and work in US, before you give a shit about your university ranking, github, leetcode and anything else, you need to care about "How do I get a visa?" because that is very hard question to answer
distant crow
if so, that's awesome
vapid jay
no, I live in the UK so I pay 9250 GBP a year for unis, but that's still better than being international 😄
distant crow
ah, that' sucks
pseudo helm
talking to my intern now about hiring him after he graduates
vapid jay
it is what it is, I saved up for uni in advance so I'm fine
distant crow
still, UK student loans is better than what's in the US. good luck with your degree
vapid jay
for sure, good leniency 🙂 thank you brotha 👍
drifting jetty
@shadow moss student visa?
shadow moss
Superjusto, not every student visa can be converted to US Work visa
I'm not 100% knowledgable about US visa system but all I know talking to friends who are on visas or were, Demand far outstrips supply
amber jungle
Any internship available for me.
harsh patio
my boss mentions how slow I work almost on a daily basis, I swear
pseudo helm
Sounds like a terrible boss if they're not trying to coach you on how to fix this perceived issue @harsh patio
pseudo helm
#1 reason people leave jobs is because of bad managers.
harsh patio
Yup. Exactly why I’m looking for new jobs
pseudo helm
best of luck
Get to plan out a new position to post and tailor it to my current intern today. Have a meeting with him and my boss later to discuss it all. He's too smart to let move on anywhere else, so going to make sure I make a place for him on team and budget.
harsh patio
she gets a lot of flack from upper management that we should be doing more quicker while at the same time working on open ended projects that take time to gain insights from
nice
pseudo helm
Are you all in a devops-ish mindset where you have quick feedback loops, can deploy frequently, etc?
harsh patio
naw we do data science investigative work
sick crag
People, I've come across something I could add to my portfolio, tell me what you think: a (generic ping) probe to run on an Ubuntu server
The probe would be composed by a single class with files to run the process on the server (e.g., a script to start the probing)
The data would be dumped both to a local database on a csv file (which is backuped, then cleared when the probing is terminated) and intoa third database which would also contain the list of probes
stoic python
Hey guys, beginner dev here. I’ve worked on a bot for awhile, ran out of free hosting. What I am requesting, is that you allow me a small space on your server, in return for my paying for that space. Additionally, I’d like you to take a look at my bot from time to time, keep it up to date. Lmk if we can work something, again i will pay for your space and service.
It’s a gta themed bot, for a military simulation community, on Xbox, no api exists realistically for Xbox to implement the things I want, but it’s still fun developing bots for the milsim discord side.
It’s super easy
distant crow
Google, AWS, DigitalOcean, and others will gladly take your money to host your bot for you
also check with #discord-bots channel, see if anyone there wants to do code review for you
crude crown
today I had a funny day
I was meeting the people of the new team and our manager made us do a MBTI test lol
drifting jetty
I've heard a programmer on average writes 50 lines of code per day
Considering that's an 8 hour work day, that's not a lot of code at all
But it goes to show that this is not easy work
prime prawn
i don't think what you heard is correct, it's based on what tasks they do. Somedays i need to design a system flow, most of it would be drawing, so less time to code. Other days i can code to few hundred lines of code if i already finished designing
sweet vessel
"Weeks of coding can save hours of design."
distant crow
some days I end up with fewer lines of code than I started with
autumn flower
has anyone been on an technical interview and have someone watch you on webcam?
tropic ice
Just did one today and was asking a question I didn't think of
I too don't have an answer for what they wanted and really hoping someone could help with a possible solution
shadow moss
jamesinthewild, common with COVID
drifting jetty
@prime prawn
That's actually lower than what I expected- for example, 3.38 lines of (assembly) code per hour times 8 hours in the average work day = about 27 lines/day
Of course, each language is written at a different pace based on the table
Here's the source: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/17224/do-professional-software-developers-write-an-average-of-10-lines-of-code-per-day
jolly furnace
asm is one mf to write
there is def structure to it in terms of functions and stuff but it takes slightly longer to see those chunks in your code
imo its a little harder to read
distant crow
oh no, don't let your manager see a table like that
although actually the number is pleasingly low, so we'll be fine
marsh cliff
maybe
nocturne snow
ETH Zurich, UChicago or Columbia Uni for my grad degree? I was first rooting for the US, deferred by a year already, but kinda leaning towards Switzerland now since the USA seems quite unstable for the future.
All analytics/data sci related degrees.
plush tulip
Ok as having actually written assembler as a paid professional, yeah it might be right but think about the feedback loop that existed. You wrote your code, using your 360 yellow card and then had to submit to assemble and run using jcl and then wait for at least 15 minutes but often an hour or so for the results. And if you wanted a printout so you could make sure your macros expanded properly and all, well the cart delivering the printouts came around twice a day.
TDD would not have been possible.
teal wren
Any idea where can you start looking for a entry level job or internship? Can you start doing that when knowing intermediate stuff?
harsh patio
Anyone here know how long you typically have to wait to reapply at a FAANG if you fail the interview process?
i've seen anything from 90 days, to 6 months, to 1 year
hard totem
hi, many python job offers are connected with AWS, but there is so many different AWS services, where should I start learning AWS?
mortal wedge
@harsh patio Different companies have different policies. No answer fits all. I've had some where I couldn't reapply for 6 months, some I could reapply the next day
@hard totem This is just going off of what the API engineer in my team says, but possibly anything related to running programs in the cloud, lambdas, and spinning up containers?
(Not lambdas as to how we see them regarding python functions)
harsh patio
@mortal wedge any idea about amazon specifically?
mortal wedge
Amazon is 6 months
distant crow
probably a good starting point for AWS is EC2, then RDS (for traditional web backend devs), then S3, then Route 53 (for DNS/web admin stuff)
this is for a more traditional backend dev. You might go the alternative route of Lambda, Amplify, Cognito, and DynamoDB if you want to go serverless (maybe good for forntend devs)
vapid jay
i want to make money, know python really well and has cybersecurity knowledge but no degree
any suggestions ?
cyan crow
Hello, i'm a college student in CS, i already have a fairly good background with Python3, i'd really like to earn a few bucks like 10€+ with programming...where should i look for? For now the projects i've done are: any kind of bot(except AI bot), webscrapers, proxy, pygame multiplayer game, and automation tools. (these are only the projects i did using Python). I already know Fiverr, but the reachability is somehow low for beginners...any suggestions/help? Thanks in advance 🙂
mortal wedge
Lambda, Amplify, Cognito, and DynamoDB are also good for full stack devs
hard totem
I ma back dev, starting work with micro services, api. I have exp with ec2, but one company told me that this is only server, worthless.
mortal wedge
That's what our engineer uses
hard totem
So I am looking services using by backend
marsh wind
ETH Zurich, UChicago or Columbia Uni for my grad degree? I was first rooting for the US, deferred by a year already, but kinda leaning towards Switzerland now since the USA seems quite unstable for the future.
@nocturne snow are you from EU?
also, any of those require huge loan/offer scholarship
shadow moss
ryunphino, it should be in rejection email
harsh patio
Welp
I have a serious question
I just got PIP'd at a small startup. What are my options here
crude crown
whhhaat
how in the
from what I read over there in the US... a PIP is kind of a death sentence typically.
It's a roundabout way of telling you to go to somewhere else.
crude crown
dunno man, can't help you much there
but I think the message is the same either way.
harsh patio
Performance Improvement Plan
they basically said I haven't been doing well enough and I have 1-2 months to 'git gud' or i get fired
crude crown
pretty much
but usually... it doesn't matter how GUD you get... you'll get the boot anyway.
harsh patio
I hear its that way at big companies
im uncertain if the same holds as much ground at smaller companies
hiring is expensive, smaller companies might care to not have to fire if they don't have to
crude crown
and most likely it's that way at smaller companies, I don't see reasons that would be different.
harsh patio
i'm also not in a huge tech hub. Hiring out here is probably difficult
crude crown
that might be so... but I would CYA and finding some backup plans (i.e. start finding and interviewing ASAP)
when is the deadline of your PIP?
harsh patio
Not sure yet. I'll need to look. One part of it is end of december
crude crown
January and February are the best months of the year to find and interview for new jobs.
crude crown
assuming a smooth sailing hiring pipeline, it should be around 4 to 6 weeks from first contact until proposal
crude crown
it's not pleasant
I know how it is
but it's important for it not to get you down
and to be resilient, especially in these trying times
so I wouldn't consider any kind of break or sabattical in this period of time... maybe in 2/3 years when the economy is somewhat recovering
December is a quite dead month for finding and interviewing for new jobs
November is sort of bad but still somewhat doable.
Considering this info, plan accordingly
harsh patio
yeah end of December is one of the deadlines for the PIP
they want me to take a class or something to get one of my skills improved
harsh patio
well they don't have a specific course lol
I don't think they had other deadlines lined up. They're all 'ongoing'
crude crown
Well... I would assume that's the final deadline
or at least plan things as if that were the final deadline.
crude crown
start prep'ing
and count on needing to be interviewing during January and February.
let's hope for the best, but prepare for the worst
drifting jetty
@harsh patio Don't get fired
Quit.
It'll look better when you apply to your next job.
harsh patio
I mean, couldn't I just say I quit?
drifting jetty
You can turn "I was fired for sucking at my job" to "I left in search of something greater."
There's a reason politicians resign before they can be fired- it's all about saving face
harsh patio
Question is how would anyone at another job know I quit vs. was fired?
drifting jetty
This may be a stretch, but let's say your new employer gets in contact with your old one
If you claim to have quit and really didn't, they're going to pick up on that discrepancy really fast
And it's going to look bad on your part
crude crown
In this day and age, it's quite possible for new employers to get in touch with previous ones.
but I would read up on what actually applies in the US state you're in.
distant crow
it's what reference checks are
that's literally the point of reference checks: to make sure you didn't lie about the reasons for leaving your previous job
there's actually two types of reference checks:
- factual ones, where your previous employer is asked to just confirm your job title, and start/end dates with them and reason for firing
- more er... "talky" ones, where your new employer asks someone who's worked with you at your old employer and tries to find out stuff about you - what you were good at, what you were bad at, stuff to look out for, reasons for leaving, how well you got along with others, etc.
I usually ask for two or three references, and I do these by phone. Mainly because due to libel laws and the threat of lawsuits, a lot of people don't want to write anything bad. doing it by phone gives the opportunity for them to maybe say things they wouldn't write, or maybe say them in a certain way to get a point across without actually lying
also I find that great employees, previous employers have no problems going out of their way to give a reference. Also, it's well established that if an employer actively declines to give a reference, that's a bad sign
@harsh patio if you've been PIP'd and you're in the US, particularly a startup, there's a very high likelihood that you're going to get fired, and the PIP process is them covering their asses against potential wrongful termination lawsuits
the PIP process generates paper proof that would be used against you should you attempt to litigate. I think most of the time if they actually want and believe you can get better, they just tell you to shape up, because PIPs are annoying for everyone to deal with
I'm not 100% sure though, but I've been in that situation a couple of times
crude crown
there was a suggestion here on quitting before being fired... do you think it's a reasonable choice in this situation?
distant crow
I'd hesitate to advise on that because I don't know for sure whether the PIP is a prelude to getting fired, or actually there for improvement. I will say though, is that there are few reasons why a startup would use a PIP for any other reason (one possible reason could be the person who put hte process together just likes processes and bureaucracy, I don't know)
I'd certainly be looking for another job in the meantime
but I need to emphasise that I don't know for sure
crude crown
yeah, if I was on the same situation I wouldn't take my chances and I would start looking for something else ASAP.
distant crow
also, depends on company, manager, and circumstances, but it may be worth trying to address why they've put you on a PIP. Is what they want actually achievable? Were you set up to fail and there's really no coming back? Are there things you can improve to keep your job? Don't disregard these also, not least because in some cases it means improving yourself. But then again, if you hate the job, not sure if you'd feel wiling to do any of that
raw prawn
Does someone knows how much a Data Engineer earns outside the U.S?
harsh patio
@distant crow part of the problem is, this is the first i'm hearing about a lot of the stuff they want me to improve on. My boss has mentioned none of it. Ever.
So its hard for me to digest. Do they just want me to do better with a formal structure around it? Was something lost in translation? Do they truly just want me out? Hard for me to gauge, but I'm leaning towards they just want me gone
That said, i've applied to a ton of jobs today. I'll take anything for now.
Good news is a lot of them are in my range of experience. Getting older continues to help.
shadow moss
With startup, there is a small chance they actually want you to improve. Just because many startups I know would just fire you instead of pip, since employment lawsuits against startups are mostly pointless
harsh patio
Thats what I was wondering. I'm going to take it seriously, but i'm still looking for a new job. This job just isn't for me. The company isn't, the manager isn't, none of it is
it just bothers me that, for the most part, a lot of the complaints are a first time offense. what I mean is, I was never told it was a problem to begin with. I was just PIP'd for the sake of being PIP'd almost like they don't have a process in place to improve or officially discuss performance
this came as the result of a 6 month review apparently
except im entering month 9 lol
i never got a formal 6 month review despite it being what they do lol
harsh patio
I also appreciate part of my PIP is that I need to be prepared to work overtime
fickle bough
what is the best(with most oppostunities) course/degree for machine learning? is it data science?
vivid dock
@near gyro I started by working for free / interning
near gyro
How did you find out about the opportunity?
vivid dock
Took about 4-5 months (while studying) until i felt comfortable saying "I'm producing value for you, could i get paid what I'm worth"
I found it on a random discord channel for my uni :P
But I'd imagine just going to startup ish firms would be an easy way in, they always want cheap manpower
Just don't bind yourself to them, should be able to leave without any hassle if it doesn't feel like you're progressing with them
I shared office with a lot of other startups, and they were all looking for students / interns to work for cheap/free.
Alternatively build a portfolio which generates interest when applying for jobs, and skip the whole intern / no pay step
near gyro
This is really good advice, and I appreciate your time. I'm currently taking comp sci online, but it's super slow, and I don't think it's really offering me much more than a timeline of events to follow. During this timeframe, I hope to do one of these things exactly, although living in a corn field makes it jobs hard to find lol. In terms of internships, what gets people in? Additionally, do you work 2 jobs during this time frame?
vivid dock
I worked like 4 or 5 at that time
And given the current situation with the pandemic, it's probably a great time to get a remote job
near gyro
4 or 5? Assuming that must have been gig work?
vivid dock
-Studied, easy extra point classes, but still had to study a bit
-Worked as a TA for introduction to programming for uni (4-8h a week)
-Project lead for a uni quiz platform (spare time)
-Mentor / Guide for new students (spare time)
-Full time intern at startup (100-120% workhours for free)
-and for some time i worked in a store (weekends)
near gyro
That sounds like a damn nice uni
vivid dock
I wish lol
I mean, it's probably nice. But the bachelor i got taught me basically nothing, and is no longer worth anything, since i have work experience.
near gyro
lmao right
vivid dock
The TA job i had to teach the professor basic python things, like f-string, decorators, context mangers etc
Which in the end didn't make the exams, so i had to teach them old-python, else it would be counted as "wrong"
project for uni was a 3-4 group project to design a data-collecting quiz platform to measure and later build ML models on, based on how students performed in programming classes.
95% me who designed the project, wrote it, and deployed it. A friend did the styling for it.
near gyro
oh wow that's so - idek the word to use, shit like that gives me chills of excited imagination
machine learning and big data, and esp behaviour modeling
vivid dock
It was nothing complex
Since I had to ultimately do it myself, and didn't have that much experience at the time it ended up being a simple quiz website, built on Svelte (front), flask backend, and mongodb.
near gyro
so, rn I'm making a website - how easy is collecting user data for training?
And yeah that makes sense
vivid dock
The data we collected was more or less amount of correct answers, category of question, question difficulty, and time spent on the question
I never did any ml on it tho
near gyro
might not be a good fit for it anyhow
vivid dock
Problem with collecting data is consent and gdpr
near gyro
regular statistics can pull out plenty, or a fancy statistics finder script
vivid dock
I was in sooooo many boring meetings about "can we collect this"
near gyro
Don't most people just use a tos for that
vivid dock
¯_(ツ)_/¯
all i knew is i needed to have a reason to collect identifying data for instance
like their name.
They wanted all kinds of data, but could never provider a proper reason as to why they need it. And therefore making it hard to justify collecting it
Was a shitshow of "academic bullshit"
near gyro
I can see it, it does make sense
esp if the intent isnt user correlation but population analysis
vivid dock
They had stupid reasons like "but we gotta know who scored bad"
"aaaand, why do you need that?"
near gyro
Makes sense yeah, that sorta info isn't super relevant
not publically*
maybe collect it but pass a key thru to encrypt its data so only prof can see lol
vivid dock
Don't think that changes anything
You could hash it so that you'd never know who it was, but can see different entries by them
near gyro
targeted mentorship if it's tied to individuals
vivid dock
but at this point, why are you singling our a student in a "how is a programming class doing"
near gyro
at this point I'm playing devils advocate lol
vivid dock
Ye, it wasn't an easy task. I delivered a product, it works, now i just consult for the new students working on it
with a nice hour salary of ~€25
near gyro
Damn, that is nice
vivid dock
They dont call me a lot anymore :(
near gyro
Oh, so, no pay?
vivid dock
I only get paid while consulting yeah, but given i work full time with a normal salary now, it's not needed, just nice
umbral solar
hello chaps! I'm not sure where exactly to have this discussion but I think it's quite fitting here. So quite recently I've finished my MSc in Data Analytics, where we did a lot of ML and AI, and a bit of NLP, which was also the subject of my dissertation. While we did cover quite a range of topics, it was mostly on a theoretical level. Coursework was mostly "create a neural net for text classification using python, numpy" etc, no advanced frameworks allowed, not even NLTK. I've been looking for jobs the past month, and aside from the experience they require, they also ask for familiarity with frameworks such as KERAS, Spark, TensorFlow, AWS AI etc. Now I don't have the slightest idea of where to start, how to become familiar and how could I prove such familiarity to a potential employer.
Two things come to mind, online courses or some small personal projects. Now with online courses, to be honest I feel kinda tired given I just worked my ass off and I don't think it's going to be creative or interesting really. On the other hand, with a personal project, I've read you should try and find something new to work on. I guess that taking a dataset, following some online guide on how to do X or Y and doing it doesn't really count (?)
I've gotten a lot of help from this server and I'd just like to say thanks, and once again I come to you for help!
distant crow
I also appreciate part of my PIP is that I need to be prepared to work overtime
@harsh patio that's....a complex topic. Working overtime is somewhat expected in the culture of startups, but it really shouldn't be. Don't take it lightly, it's too easy to say "we need to work overtime to get stuff done" but in reality the truth is "we suck at time management, and over-promised, and it's easier to flog the programmers than for the inexperienced senior management to not oversell and push back on unreasonable investor expectations"
It's a common story in startups
harsh patio
@distant crow the later is what was done
They over promise sometimes and then it becomes my job to try and get us there. I refused to last night. They tried hard and then I guess that was just a mark on me
distant crow
I know, that's a common problem
it's a complex topic, never having overtime is probably impractical. having too much overtime is also wrong. There are also unanticipated or unavoidable reasons for over time, there are also bad and easily avoidable reasons for overtime. There's overtime that is planned in advance and executed well and fairly for employees; there's also forced overtime that is not planned or executed well
I've been there on every side: as an engineer who had to do overtime; as middle-management who has to be the one to ask the team to do overtime because of failures in upper management; and as an inexperienced CTO whose failures and inexperience caused overtime
harsh patio
Idk, i don't mind the overtime sometimes either
but I never really felt it was expected. Boss did a poor job communicating that
regardless, this situation blows. They pretty much are unhappy with everything regarding me right now, despite how much of it is in my control or not
its hard to work at a place where you feel unwanted, undesired, and a waste of space. And its been that way here for a few months
distant crow
@sweet flax this channel isn't for hiring, see channel description up top
sorry to hear that, ryuhphino, good luck with your job search and PIP process
harsh patio
yeah, I'll just stick with it and do what I can.
little prairie
why are most of the jobs on upwork wordpress/
white karma
Where else would they be?
little prairie
I mean I don't see very many full stack development gigs from scratch
crude crown
Really sorry to hear about that @harsh patio, I know how painful that can be.
harsh patio
Yeah, Idk. This job has not been at all what was expected, thats for sure. I'm going to keep pushing, so that at the end of the day if they don't feel its working I can say I did everything I could do
quaint halo
Question: When getting hired for a webdev/coding job, what are things generally that employers look for?
jolly furnace
knowing react or angular would be nice as they are quite popular. Also if u r doing some backend stuff too, flask and django are nice to haves too
plus some knowledge of sql
prob can get u an entry lvl job
vast shoal
@sweet flax We do not allow recruitment on this server. See the topic of this channel for suggestions of some Python job boards you could potentially use instead.
neon moat
@harsh patio it sounds like extremely poor management that you have at your company, especially if they are overpromising on deadlines and expecting you to work overtime to meet targets just so they can look good to clients
Be careful not to let some things get to you too much, its easy to fall into an attitude of perpetual complaining due to not enjoying working with colleagues, but from what ive seen you say in the past it only seems to be your manager?
Ofcourse if your current position is seriously impacting your health then only you know if you need to leave, only you know your own financial and personal circumstances.
harsh patio
so yeah, idk how much responsibility falls on the company, but my manager is terrible. She DEFINITELY contributes to overpromising. I've witnessed her do it in meetings by cherry picking results. But your point on my attitude is probably why I got PIP'd. I've been unhappy here due to some of this and i think it affected the job enough for them to have noticed
i'm going to step up and attempt to save this job, but I'm also applying for...basically every job where I live.
And some where I don't live
scenic pine
What are some common things Technical PMs might use Python for...?
neon moat
PIP'd? is that some sort of performance review?
harsh patio
Performance Improvement Plan
Basically me signing i need to fix my problems or they have reason to fire me
neon moat
so if you need the job I would say to try and put a different spin on your attitude, even if you're half faking it. Try and do the best for yourself long term even if you continue to look elsewhere
harsh patio
Thats the plan. I'm just grinning and bearing it until I find a means out
jolly furnace
but then if they r just doing it like a show trial...
neon moat
whatever happens try and use it as a learning experience, there will always be people you work with that you dont like or that are incompetent at their job, but try and think what you could of done yourself differently to help yourself in your job
unfortunately you cant change other people
which is why sometimes its better to fake it and play the game for the sake of paying the rent
harsh patio
There is some stuff I could probably have done to avoid this, but at the end of the day, this was never a good fit and i was setup for failure
neon moat
I'm not for one second blaming you, im just trying to help for future situations
harsh patio
What i mean by that is that I'd be leaving this company regardless, just a matter of when not if, and by whose authority
jolly furnace
if its a dumpster fire u might as well bail out early
neon moat
i completely understand it can be extremely draining to work with incompetent people
harsh patio
I could of done better to keep things afloat though until i found an alternative
neon moat
its a tough world
harsh patio
now i'm having to rush the process
Speaking of, I got a call today, not sure how I feel about it. I like the sounds of it, but I also need to see how the interview process goes i guess
Its a contract to hire role
neon moat
remember, unfortunately as an employee we dont hold the cards, sometimes you need to give a bit the other way, what i mean is things are not always perfect
sometimes you gotta make the best out of a shit situation
try and get as many interviews as you can
harsh patio
yeah, which is why i'm considering a contract to hire role
harsh patio
Honestly some of what is being offered is much better. Its in the same city as my Fiance works
Pay sounds good, its just hourly, but they're remote right now
neon moat
like i said, you cant change the past now, just try and learn from it as you will end up in similar situations in the future
easier said than done, but sometimes you gotta bite your tongue and get on with it
harsh patio
yup
I was super bummed about it all
but that phone call already made me feel better
neon moat
yea sounds good
harsh patio
Keeping perspective, I do a lot to keep my skillset relevant, I might of forgotten that
neon moat
sounds like you will be able to get another job from what you're saying
neon moat
dont be too hard on yourself, like I said it sounds like your management dont have a clue
dont beat yourself up over it, dust yourself off and get back on it
just because you have had a bad experience dont doubt that you cant be a programmer
just keep trying
hard totem
Could you recommend websites, groups, any sources with job offers? I am looking for a remote job
Do you have any website like upwork, fiverr where can I find projects for freelancers? It is really difficult to get serious project from upwork
vapid jay
why is cant i type in #python-discussion
urban venture
Hi,
So I just want to say Thanks, to begin with, to anyone who takes the time to answer my question. It means a lot!
I am a total noob when it comes to programming, and I am just starting.
I took up the book 'automate the boring the stuff with python' as a starting point.
I wish to be proficient in it as soon as possible so I can start applying for jobs or freelancing my skills. Till now, I have been working as a freelance SaaS writer!
So, how do you guys recommend that I move from here? The entire ordeal is pretty smooth up until now most probably because I took a class in 'C' while in college and remember much of it.
hard totem
have you applied for any permanent job roles?
@neon moat yes, but I have only 2 year of experience, now it is difficult to find new job, in Poland there is big competition on the market
I want to find a job abroad, but I am little afraid about working in multinational team
urban venture
@hard totem hey, just saw a few of your old chats.. you can try out this website: https://practice.geeksforgeeks.org/jobs I have been looking at it for the past couple of weeks.. they do have some good offers, maybe it can help you.
deep wolf
harsh patio
I lowkey think my company posted a refined position up to replace me
jovial cargo
Guys any idea where i can find online python (flask) job, as i have been leaening it for a long time and i would like to work with real people on it and if possible to earn cash
@sullen osprey Try freelance marketplaces
distant crow
honestly, putting you on PIP and hiring at the same time probably isn't surprising
harsh patio
yeah, job was posted 5 days ago, and the responsibilities are extremely similar, just in a different location. I'm remote of everyone else.
Well not everyone, but i'm based out of a different office
seems they don't want to go that route
modest panther
Guys what do you do when your making the most money in your life but you are getting worse health?
kinda hard to go gym during pandemic
crude crown
you start reading up on health stuff and taking measures
white karma
Try monk exercises
distant crow
you flex on discord about how much money you make...and then you go on amazon and order some home gym stuff and flex those muscles at home
vapid jay
what job could a 16 year old with python experience land into
harsh patio
Any of you have an opinion one way or the other on contract/contract to hire jobs? my location seems to have few FTE jobs and lots of contract or contract to hire jobs
novel crag
hi, struggling to get hired as a junior dev
literally willing to take any salary, move anywhere in the uk
www.github.com/elsoleiro please criticise/give pointers
i'm 27 and uh, idk, i'm contacting companies directly after applying trying to speak to devs/ctos etcs and not having much luck, kinda deflated at the moment. i compare myself to other junior devs and ppl who land jobs after a 3 month course and it kinda hurts a little. i don't think i'm far from where they are and in some instances i think i do better.
vapid jay
@vapid jay freelancing is an option. I want to try it myself
vapid jay
How difficult is it to make 200k$ as a software engineer? I am currently deciding between graduate school in CS vs Medical School. I am equally interested in both, although they are very different.
vivid dock
@novel crag I wouldn't just look for junior dev positions, try everything that doesn't go way outside of your general comfort area.
vapid jay
Hey
vivid dock
@vapid jay Advertisement is against our rules.
vapid jay
Just wanted to make you aware of our program, happy to answer any questions
Yeah but isn't this a channel for people looking for careers
If you have any tech ideas you want to turn into a startup we're here to just help
vivid dock
If you feel like your program could benefit our members contact @severe widget and we can judge it internally and announce it for you.
It's not for recruitment, or looking for jobs though. But for discussions around the "world of work"
novel crag
@vivid dock do you suggest picking stuff with a thrust in the general direction of coding or even stuff that is tangentially related?
like, right now i'm an analyst, do some python, powerbi and excel stuff
vivid dock
More like, don't just go for the junior positions
novel crag
oh for real?
vivid dock
It's more or less a fancy title to pay you less ,and feel less bad about asking about stuff, imo
vivid dock
You might still end up a junior, if you apply for normal jobs. But you'll get more chances to sell yourself
novel crag
got it, thanks floppy.
vivid dock
But, just a pinch a salt, i dont know the job market where you live
shadow moss
@vapid jay Depends, if you are American, I wouldn't go into debt for CS Masters unless it's elite school
loud badge
I wanna be DIscord CEO so what should I do??
hardy wolf
What's CEO?
loud badge
Chief executive officer
vast shoal
@loud badge You're probably going to need a significant track record of executive level experience with multiple other well-known organizations or companies.
loud badge
oh thank you @vast shoal
vast shoal
To even be remotely considered.
honest dove
nah fam, just use discord a lot
loud badge
I am just 14 so I think I am not going to be CEO now! 😦
honest dove
maybe even grab a hoodie
vast shoal
I think that rather than aim for becoming an executive of a particular company, it's probably more constructive to just figure out if you have a strong passion for building and running businesses in general.
vast shoal
If it turns out that you do, and you're good at it, opportunities will come your way. Maybe not Discord specifically, but something worthwhile.
loud badge
Oh nice! 🙂
vapid jay
get accepted into business or coding school at one of the best universities/colleges
then drop out after year 2
loud badge
ok!
vapid jay
thats the secret for success just ask a lot of CEOs
loud badge
🤣
vapid jay
disclaimer: do not follow that advice even if a lot of ceos say it was their path they took
or do
🤷♀️
loud badge
wut does that mean??
honest dove
i bet the discord ceo uses discord more than you
loud badge
haha
vapid jay
steve jobs, bill gates, mark zuckerberg, etc all did it
distant crow
by the time you gain the experience needed to be CEO, discord might not exist
hard to tell on that timescale
sullen aspen
steve jobs, bill gates, mark zuckerberg, etc all did it
and there are also a lot of random dropouts that did it lol
loud badge
ikr
vapid jay
and there are also a lot of random dropouts that did it lol
risk management 101
you must decide your risk tolerance
🙂
loud badge
gtg guys
loud badge
hi
plush tulip
@shadow moss if your undergrad degree is not in CS, getting a masters in CS is a good route to take
shadow moss
not always
maybe it helps for your first job, but once you clear that first job hurdle, most places only care "Bachelors True/False"
and in United States, Master can be another 30k in debt and 2 more years
it's likely that won't pay off
if you are in another country where school is paid for or highly subsidize, it's different
plush tulip
yes but masters degree might be more cost efficient that getting a BS in CS if it also includes being a graduate teaching assistant, plus the experience teaching has a lot of benefits too when it comes to being good at talking to groups and expressing ideas
For every case that I can present where it is more cost efficient in my corner of America for so and so school, I will admit that you could present an alternative for your corner of America for some other school where it is not.
shadow moss
going off my experience, Masters in CS, esp for first job is looked at with "so what" because theory doesn't translate into work product
so I stand by original point, Unless your Masters is elite school, it's likely trying to get a job with BS + Certificate or some other method will work out better then trying to get masters and taking on that debt
If you get into computer science at CalTech/Stanford/MIT or other such schools, that's obviously different conversation
plush tulip
Exactly, if you have a BS in CS for the most part no benefit to getting a Masters in CS. If however, you are debating between getting another BS (in CS) in addition to the BS you already have, you are much better off getting a Masters in CS
shadow moss
even if you have BS not in Computer Science
because you will have slight hurdle to clear without having BS in Computer Science or similar
but many companies are finding programmers who don't do traditional of "BS in CS, programming" bring different viewpoints
every company I've been has been similar, they only care about Bachelor of Science
because let's face it, Computer Science classes don't prepare you for real world of programming of deadlines, Jira, design and terrible program structures that would fail you in CompSci 101
plush tulip
I guess a lot has changed since I was in college because hard deadlines was a serious part of it. But also in different fields, the employers care differently about your degree. The financial sector definitely cares.
shadow moss
I'm in financial sector, I think two coworkers have CS degree
and both needed it because they originally H-1Bs and CS degree was required to clear visa hurdle
my boss has BS in Biology
plush tulip
Ok sciences can be an exception to the rule.
shadow moss
again, my statement is "If you have BS, I wouldn't get MS in CompSci for programming unless it was offer to top tier school, it's not going to pay off likely in long run"
now, if your company will pay for it, like it paid for coworker to get PhD in software design, then who cares
plush tulip
Seriously, is that not a benefit all companies (other than startups) offer? They might be picky about your courses (if you are choosing something that they will not find usable) but I haven't heard of a non startup not offering that
And if you are good enough to get through the interview and get hired, then I can see your point.
vapid jay
Man, it's crazy how you read of people applying everywhere and they can't get a job. I guess the idea of the developer job surplus isn't exactly true
plush tulip
there is a surplus but however... I think everyone is very cautious when it comes to hiring... a bad hire is seen as a lot worse than passing on a potential good hire.
shadow moss
With everyone being remote, onboard Jr Devs is much more difficult so few companies want to spend the energy doing so
we generally Pair Program with our Jr Devs
plush tulip
@shadow moss any good pointers for pair programming remotely?
shadow moss
and sometimes "Developer shortage" is bullshit by companies to justify their outsourcing or by bootcamps wanting to sell you courses
AITheMostCopacetic, don't?
otherwise, IDE that supports like it Visual Studio Live Share
and proper collaboration tools helps as well
my company has neither so it's difficult
plush tulip
it almost feels like pair programming has been replaced by code reviews and pull requests. so instead of being dynamic, its being done by a turn based system
shadow moss
but that is slow
Coder A does work, Coder B must figure out what Coder A did, figure out if it's best method, make recommendations, Coder A spruces up work, Coder B must review again, repeat
Pair Programming removes that
so we found with Jr Devs, they became productive faster with Pair Programming
since feedback is instant, mistakes are less because pair catches it faster and reviews are much quicker because two coders have already approved the changes
harsh patio
I have a bit of a weird question. A small upgrade to getting PIP'd is that there are a ton of .net jobs near me and my experience seems to be very appealing. So literal days after I get my PIP I have gotten multiple interviews and interest
some are FTE, some are Contract to hire. mixed bag, but if i'm looking at getting fired I take what I take and live to see another day
Anyways, If i quit my current job, I owe back on the sign on bonus. HOWEVER, if i'm fired, I owe nothing. So if I get a new job offer.....unethical life pro tip...but do I let myself get fired from my current job while I move full steam ahead for a new job?
vast shoal
@harsh patio It's probably better for your resume to not having been fired.
vast shoal
Even if you quit?
harsh patio
I mean if i quit I don't, but then I'm stuck fitting the bill that I wouldn't of had to
vast shoal
Yeah, but it's a black mark on your record.
harsh patio
True, but its also in a separate domain. Its the only job on my resume in the world of Data Science. Everything else is software engineering. I guess the question is how much is the worth of a dot on my record.
Which speaking of, what is this 'record'? Like where is this information saved?
vast shoal
I mean, future employers may not contact your previous employers to see how you did. But they could.
harsh patio
True
vast shoal
I guess you could just pretend that you didn't work there, but then, where did you work during that time?
That's also a problem.
harsh patio
If I was fired and it ever came up i'd be brute honest with them
I have nothing to hide
vast shoal
Yeah, but it's better if you didn't get fired in the first place.
harsh patio
All my experience and expertise is in software engineering. I took a step into data science and I failed. Its obvious i'm a much better engineer
vast shoal
I don't know how much money we are talking, but my gut feeling is that the reputation loss is the riskier move here.
harsh patio
the most would be like $3000
vast shoal
I can't tell you what's right or wrong, but I think I would've quit in your shoes.
And pretended like you did it for a reason other than the fact that you got PIP'd.
harsh patio
Thats what i've been telling people. A partial truth
vast shoal
Partial truths are generally fine when you're applying for jobs, I think.
There's no harm in presenting the best side of yourself.
As long as you're not presenting something you don't actually possess.
harsh patio
yeah, truth is i'm not ready to be a data scientist if i want to again. And I miss the structure of a software job. The pip is just a reason to expedite a process I was already headed towards
Theoretically, I could leave it off my resume if I wanted. I work a side gig right now in software. Then just replace this job with that one and pretend I took like 3-4 months off work
idk, i'll see how this plays out
need an offer first
but recruiters out here have been moving quick and I love it
vast shoal
When I wanted to switch jobs a while back, I found that it was quite easy.
There are recruiters hitting me up on LinkedIn several times a week.
harsh patio
how many years of exp do you have?
I don't get linkedin recruiters on me
I had some here and there in colorado
but haven't for quite a while
vast shoal
Including part-time while studying, about 8-ish, and I have a masters in CS.
So I guess maybe that helps.
My profile is fintech and there are a lot of jobs there, so that could be a factor too.
harsh patio
I have a masters too, which helped with this job I have now but not much else haha. I only have, like, 3 1/2
vast shoal
Also, I'm in Stockholm, Sweden, so maybe the job market is just totally different.
harsh patio
oh thats a huge difference haha
im in the US. But I think I'm headed towards what you're experiencing
like I have a few recruiters moving on me. Which I hadn't experienced before, really
In a smaller tech hub so there might be less competition here
grim cove
I wouldn't worry too much about getting let go. Do what you think is best for yourself 🙂
harsh patio
I only worry cause $3000 is a lot and my fiance and I are planning to buy a house early next year. We have the money but that eats a lot into it
but if I can't find a job between now and then, it won't really matter, I suppose
grim cove
It sounds like you have some leads on new positions. Have you chatted with any of them to see if you can get a sign on bonus with a new company to help balance out that 3k?
I didn't read up very high -- apologies if you've already mentioned this
harsh patio
I'm not far enough ahead on any of that but thats a good thought. I'll look into it
That said, some of these are contract jobs
contract to hire and the like
but contracts are better than being broke
grim cove
Contracts are definitely better than being broke but I've been a little hesitant to be a contractor while trying to close on a property. That's a tough one.
The paperwork sucks under normal circumstances lol
harsh patio
Very true. Honestly my best lead is on a contract to hire job
i've had a phone screen and a technical interview
and both have been great vibes. The salary is a pay bump if i get it, the hourly rate is also a pay bump
grim cove
Ahh long term that sounds like a great option to pursue
harsh patio
It just feels good. Tech stack lines up very well with my experience
They also seem super into me so it feels mutual so far
harsh patio
The company that gave me a PIP wants me to out of pocket pay for a coursera course as part of my Performance Improvement Plan, as well as work overtime as needed.
vast shoal
That sounds pretty shady.
I guess they are just trying to push you out, but it sounds really childish and unprofessional.
final grove
hello guys, im here because i cant guide myself to right career path as python programmer, i wish to apply for junior developer position, but seems like im stuck in choosing right topic to master in, did any of you find yourself in similar position as i am right now and can any of you guide me a bit, i would really appreciate any help 🙂
crude crown
@harsh patio "I took a step into data science and I failed" Dude, from what I read from your posts so far it doesn't seem to be your fault at all.
shadow moss
Ryuhphino, you could try and negotiate your way out
crude crown
you had bad luck on on the company you ended up at, period.
shadow moss
Go ahead and release me from my sign on bonus obligation and I’ll move on with no liability waiver
crude crown
Although I can assure you something. A career as a software engineer compared to a data scientist/machine learning engineer is much less of a wildcard and it sure has a better ROI in general.
(ask me how I know this)
shadow moss
Also, getting back your sign in bonus would be difficult for them
That’s how I would handle it
Get a new job, approach the company with, I keep my sign in bonus and sign that I quit free and clear with no further liability including unemployment against the company.
Or door number 2 is I work the PIP and fight you on unemployment by this requirement that I take courses where you don’t provide funding for training
They want you gone in many cases, bonus is worth it to be rid of you.
final grove
can any of you kind people answer my question, feel like you missed it 😄
vast shoal
@final grove Do you mean what topic to self-study, or what topic to study at uni in?
final grove
@vast shoal like what topic to self-study, i do not go to any college
im self thought so far
shadow moss
What languages have your learned so far?
final grove
python mostly
shadow moss
And what’s other?
final grove
i had just a bit knowledge in js but nothing too special
vast shoal
You could check out https://www.reddit.com/r/learnpython/comments/ctkypf/im_100_self_taught_landed_my_first_job_my/. It's a Reddit post by a user here who taught himself web development and eventually found employment. He outlines what he studied and how in order to get there, and some other useful tips.
final grove
i have one tool built and pushed to github (built with python for bug bounty hunting)
shadow moss
I’d consider learning JavaScript SPA framework like Vue/Angular/React
vast shoal
Whether it's viable could vary depending on where you live, but I think it has pretty good general advice anyhow.
final grove
i mean i dont like web development that much, cant find myself doing web dev for rest of my life
shadow moss
I feel like it’s not that viable
Few developers jobs are just python, most workplaces want to see other skills
vast shoal
@final grove You may not be able to be overly picky if you want to find a job with no academic credentials.
harsh patio
@crude crown I appreciate it. I did fail in some regards. But it’s hard to say if I would of failed with better support. Guess we will never know. There definitely is a data science side of things I’ll need to prepare for more if I ever venture this direction again
final grove
@vast shoal seems fair enough..
@vast shoal which bound me to web development as you say?
vast shoal
It's not written in stone, but you're probably more likely to succeed with web dev than a lot of other domains.
crude crown
@harsh patio Still not quite convinced that you were underprepared. Assuming that you were in a junior/mid level role, it seems clear from your writing that your lead/senior and management failed you.
final grove
@vast shoal i mean i dont like front end i might be great with back end tho, anyways you opened my eyes a bit and i really appreciate it 🙂
vast shoal
@harsh patio The kind of treatment you've gotten would undermine anybody's confidence. It's pretty infuriating to read about tbh.
crude crown
and that they had unreasonable expectations for what a person working in data science can actually bring to the table (which is a quite unfortunate reality in the vast majority of the companies)
vast shoal
@final grove You don't necessarily need to specialize in UX design just cause you're a web developer. It doesn't hurt to be multitalented, but you could lean into the backend side of things if you enjoy that more.
final grove
@vast shoal thank you so much for these words, i was more towards software development but seems like i had to think about that earlier and study for it, im lazy person when it comes to school, im more of self teaching haha 😄
vast shoal
School definitely is the easiest route, but self-teaching is possible.
final grove
@vast shoal i was terrible at school, had no enough points to continue to college, i can pay 2000 euros for 1 year of "course" but im not sure if that would be great idea, anyways 2k euros is not that small amount of money either
harsh patio
That is true. The treatment I received DEFINITELY had an impact on my performance. To say anything different is just irresponsible
shadow moss
Wallowing in the reasons why is pointless and can have negative effect
harsh patio
Who is wallowing?
vast shoal
I think it's important for your self-esteem that you don't blame yourself for factors that were out of your control.
So in that sense, it can help to reflect on the reasons, at least a little bit.
harsh patio
Yeah I’m pretty confident as a person and have a solid head on my shoulders. I’m aware of the factors that contributed to my lack of success here. Both in and out of my control. That said I’m bum rushing this job right now to try and save it while I also try to get a new one lol
shadow moss
Sure but I find job actions like this are like divorce
Step 1 is moving on. Step 2 is protecting yourself. Much much later is step 3 where did I go wrong?
vast shoal
@harsh patio Just do what you need to to make the best out of the current situation, but definitely work towards getting out of this company as your overall strategy.
shadow moss
Get a new job. Take new job. Go to current company with my offer recommendation and don’t talk about new job
I’d bet they take that offer in heartbeat
harsh patio
I pouted about it for like 2 days while I applied for a ton of jobs. Since then I’ve worked my ass off, gotten a few interviews, and just overall feeling better
shadow moss
if they don't take that offer, see if you can time quitting when your paycheck amount owed is minimal, write off last paycheck and basically be like, if you want rest, I'll see you in court
how big was sign on bonus in terms of annual salary?
harsh patio
Uhhh sign on bonus was 10,000 salary is 72,500
shadow moss
so about month and half
really a month with total cost of employee, if you are offering that to them with over a month to go, they should want to take it
harsh patio
By the time I get a job offer, ideally, I have 3 months left before I wouldn’t owe anything
shadow moss
I'm saying more then month left on the pip
like if end of PIP day is Feb 1, 2021, and you get a job by November 15th and present your offer, it's cheaper to give up recovering your bonus VS you being on payroll for another 2 months and NOT recovering the bonus
harsh patio
Well by the time I have an offer I’ll at a maximum have like a month left on PiP
My PIP is two months long
distant crow
pip install new_job
clear trout
I have a question. Are algorithms asked on entry level position only or are they asked in interviews for experienced developers too
If I have to spend my free time learning I would rather like to learn new technologies than compititive programming.
But I am afraid I don't do well with algorithm based questions in interviews.
distant crow
previously I interviewed at Google, I think at the L5 level, and was given several interviews which included the use of these algorithms
most required them in some form or other
it's going to depend on the company and position, but it seems at least with the bigger ones, it's not out of the question to have an algorithms question
BUT I'll say this: I'm mostly self-taught in programming, and never formally learned them. I think by the time you get a few years of programming experience, it's relatively easy to pick them up again since you realize you've been using the concepts already, just didn't have a name for them in your mind
vapid jay
I'm not good with competitive programming will it affect my job interview??
clear trout
I just asked same question 😁
As someone who use a lot of jsx I was surprised how bad I was at solving these algorithms. But I see what meseta ment. Just hope that I get reletively easy algorithms to solve.
heady flax
can I develop good games and apps just with python?
vast shoal
Python is fine for most types of apps. It is not widely used for gamedev, but it's definitely possible to use it for smaller 2D games.
heady flax
ok
young eagle
Python is a good server. And my career is: I am making vids. I dont was make vids for 4 months but im back and I am dev games i edit photos and making logos.
jolly furnace
all this talk about pip recently... when my interviewer was asking if I knew about pip, i explained what performance improvement plan was lmao. instead they were talking about python package manager
harsh patio
god
my boss is so fucking terrible
I want to quit right now
I sent her 3 separate files for work i've done. She hasn't looked at either in 24-48 hours
and now wants me to spoon feed it to her and go over the code together
little prairie
...Then just do it
harsh patio
I am? Doesn't change how she never reads the work I do independently.
I have to stop what i'm doing everytime and go line by line with her
little prairie
You get paid by the hour?
harsh patio
how is that relevant?
vapid jay
Don't take risky measures in annoyance first find a place that can hire you
little prairie
Because you're getting paid to do what she tells you to
harsh patio
im paid salary
and one of their complaints is the speed of my work
so if she stops me to do her job i still am responsible for the work i do
so shes both slowing me down AND costing me time
she leads this team. I shouldn't have to spoon feed my analysis to her. She should be able to look at it and see how it relates to our overall goal
little prairie
In that case, tell her that she is hindering your efficiency in the work place and it's causing performance issues for you.
harsh patio
I come here for a discussion and you're questioning why i'm bringing something up for discussion lol
discussion/venting
is that not the point of this discord?
little prairie
Just helping out
jolly furnace
lmao if the current situation is a dumpster fire might as well yeet out
harsh patio
ive had like several interviews lately
the yeet is coming lol
Have another one Monday
harsh patio
smaller companies in my area. No one large of well known.
little prairie
I haven't any professional experience in programming only upwork and freelancing. Thinking of getting a job job
How do they view freelancers transitioning?
near verge
Hello. I'm trying to get into data science, watched courses on udemy from super data science team, practiced regression, clustering, etc... up to cnn and ann in python. I'm still just a highschooler (graduation year), and I still don't know the math behind it. Is it possible to pass job interview without math or is it strictly required to study on an university and just learn the math.
jolly furnace
i cant speak for data sci but its usually good to know why the regressions and clustering are doing what they are doing. technically you dont need to go to an uni to learn the math but its just that someone with a degree is favoured against someone without
near verge
would github projects compensate for degree ?
little prairie
Depends on what the project is. Sometimes it would surpass it.
neat ingot
@near verge checknout tinygrad or minigrad. Write your own version of matrix operations. I did pow in pyopencl.
crude crown
@harsh patio What you wrote just made me think
is it possible that there's maybe a mismatch on what you think is speed and what the company thinks is speed?
harsh patio
Hmmm. I don’t really think so. I think to my boss speed is how quickly I go through individual tasks. To the company it means how quickly we as a team complete large projects.
My boss at this point contributes nothing to our main project
It’s a more senior guy and then myself.
I say that to say that she needs me to walk her through code because at this point she has no fucking idea what we are doing lol
More poor organization and management is all
agile glade
Anyone combining python with an information systems degree?
summer merlin
anyone combining python with an econ/math degree?
sorry if this is a regular question lol
jolly furnace
well math is used in lots of areas
woven flax
i meant econ/math
modest panther
I got a degree in econ and actuarial science and i use python at work and in college
but in my school we used R ( I taught myself Python )
My opinion is math is not good for data analyst; however if you focus on computation it will be best.
vapid jay
Hey guys do you think I should go to college for a computer science degree? Im behind on math so I would have to take longer to get my degree. Or should I do self studies/bootcamp etc.. and make projects to and build off from there to hopefully land an intern or beginners job
I want to go into coding and maybe becoming a software developer
woven flax
but in my school we used R ( I taught myself Python )
@modest panther oh dude, i hate R, i had to use it in univeristy
summer merlin
Hey guys do you think I should go to college for a computer science degree? Im behind on math so I would have to take longer to get my degree. Or should I do self studies/bootcamp etc.. and make projects to and build off from there to hopefully land an intern or beginners job
@vapid jay uni is always fun man, i wouldn't skip out on that experience
you get to meet some interesting people
woven flax
Hey guys do you think I should go to college for a computer science degree? Im behind on math so I would have to take longer to get my degree. Or should I do self studies/bootcamp etc.. and make projects to and build off from there to hopefully land an intern or beginners job
@vapid jay im working towards masters degree in computer science right now. if you have any questions, go ahead
vapid jay
is being
in student debt worth it?
I would probably be around 40-50k in debt after community college
@woven flax
jolly furnace
thats how america rolls
harsh patio
Did any of you find the job market easier to navigate when you hit the ‘mid level’ section of your career? Like was getting a job at 3-5 years of experience easier than 0-2?
distant crow
yes absolutely
first jobs are the hardest to find (outside student internships and graduate placement programs)
everything else is now based on your skills and experience, I think it's easier
woven flax
Did any of you find the job market easier to navigate when you hit the ‘mid level’ section of your career? Like was getting a job at 3-5 years of experience easier than 0-2?
@harsh patio xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD - that's all I can say
modest panther
50k of student debt isnt worth it
i got 8k of student debt going to state college
pretty good return on it
vapid jay
I dont have much money and didnt take highschool serious
I would be able to pay community college
but then transfer
I beleive it its going to be 30-40k
thinking about it now
modest panther
yeah bro go to community college first
no one cares about that as long as you finish your bachelors
make sure you take community college serious
vapid jay
I want to take summer classes
modest panther
literally just try to complete the book as the class goes through the chapters
vapid jay
for community but I wont be able to afford it so I want to take student loans out
modest panther
because community college is pretty bad with indepth knowledge
why can't you afford community collegE?
are you doing out of state?
modest panther
summer classes i paid for with a part time job man
dont take too many credits at a time
modest panther
i did my associates in 1 year
it did nothing but stress my life
theres people working at microsoft with 8 years to finish their bachelors degree
they dont ask.. how long did it take for you to finish your degree?
just finish it in normal 4 years dude.
work a part time job to pay off what you can and enjoy your life before you have to work like a maniac
vapid jay
I dont think I will be able to graduate in 4 years
Im behind on math
I have to take a class before I can take college math
vapid jay
true
harsh patio
@woven flax not really a helpful answer
woven flax
@woven flax not really a helpful answer
@harsh patio i;ve just spoked from my experience
acoustic frigate
is it a bad idea to go into computer science with slim to no coding experience and the bare minimum math taken in high school? i think im a decently smart kid and i love computers but im worried haha
woven flax
is it a bad idea to go into computer science with slim to no coding experience and the bare minimum math taken in high school? i think im a decently smart kid and i love computers but im worried haha
@acoustic frigate if you can understand algorithms you can go to computer science
summer merlin
What made you choose cs? @acoustic frigate
vapid jay
im in the same boat suide
acoustic frigate
@summer merlin im fascinated by it, im really introverted and when i do like being social its through the internet. i like computers and playing computer games a lot. its kind of a switch up for me bc i kinda just started hating all the shit i used to like to do and live on my pc now, went from being a three sport high school athlete in really good shape to playing computer games all day so now im tryna make something better with my time
vapid jay
I wasnt bad at math I just didnt take it serious
vapid jay
just concentrate and do repetition and ask Q
thats what im doing for my math placement test
acoustic frigate
i heard its a lot of googling
summer merlin
at my uni the first year cs were pretty simple
acoustic frigate
i just know of a lot of kids in my hs now who are pretty good at coding already
jolly furnace
a lot of math is unfortunately doing lots of practise questions
summer merlin
you'll do good
jolly furnace
the thing is ppl think they are good at coding
summer merlin
math is literally drill drill drill
jolly furnace
until they realize they r not
acoustic frigate
i hope so man, ohio state bound
jolly furnace
thats what happened in my first yr cs class
ppl thought they were good at coding until like half way through where things got hard
acoustic frigate
i know im shit bc i cant figure out how to like apply it
i watch the videos and shit
jolly furnace
so even if u think ur behind ur not
acoustic frigate
well i appreciate the advice guys
jolly furnace
bc after first yr everyone kinda gets to the same lvl
summer merlin
Have you tried codewars suide?
acoustic frigate
no i have not
summer merlin
it's good practice for python
acoustic frigate
ill check it out
summer merlin
tough exercises tho
acoustic frigate
i think my basic code is like decent, but where do u guys like apply it
acoustic frigate
i will, i appreciate all the help tho guys truly
weird time rn, this is such a flip for me and i feel so behind
summer merlin
are you in uni rn?