Hi All. I started my career as a network admin/engineer and have been working on network testing with python for automation for last few yrs(Total exp. 13 yrs). Considering FAANG and others moving to own devices or cloud, network testing role opportunities are getting limited to cisco/vmware(and very few). I am more interested in python automation roles, also leverage my networking knowledge. Not interested to work as core network engineer. Let me know your suggestions on domains I can focus for longterm career
#career-advice
coarse jacinth
distant crow
sounds like devops
pine ruin
Hi..Am new to this Community..i have 5+ years of experience in academia..don't have much knowledge on programming languages..now i want to transform my career to development environment..how to get on it?
sterile wave
!resources
inner wrenBOT
sterile wave
Is a good place to start
south apex
Is there a perfect format for email while sending your resume and github repository for a recruiter ? If so could anyone explain what is the format?
distant crow
attach PDF of your resume; link your github profile if you wish. Exactly what the email contains depends on how you're applying, if you want to go for something more formal, google for Cover Letter templates and see how they're structured
however, personally I've been a lot more informal with recruiters
small pelican
@dapper pagoda OK
dapper pagoda
I received a technical interview/assignment last Wednesday. I submitted it the next morning (Thursday) and still haven’t heard back from them. Should I follow up with them or give more time?
tardy orchid
I received a technical interview/assignment last Wednesday. I submitted it the next morning (Thursday) and still haven’t heard back from them. Should I follow up with them or give more time?
@dapper pagoda what was assignment?
dapper pagoda
@tardy orchid Just a python assignment and some documentation for the code
distant crow
I usually give it a week
topaz walrus
Anyone have any reccomendations for ATS friendly resume builders or templates
elder topaz
mossy latch
Im waiting for an approval
Meanwhile i was asked for interview/chat about sales position /IT support
This approval takes ages, I will have an interview tomorrow for a sales job, how to tell them politely that I want to wait on it if they give me an offer?
Sideways, taking much different job than IT because i go mental at home, how much the likeliness to transfer into IT later?
agile shoal
Guys do you think i should do an apprentiship for facebook or do alevels
shadow moss
Martor, most companies will not wait
they will give you a timeframe for how long the offer is valid for
barren marsh
Looking to get a certificate in SQL Development through a local technical college. Its basically the courses for an associate's degree but with the generals because I'm still in highschool. What sort of people look for that certificate and would I want to put in another 1-2 years for the associates?
Without* the generals
peak halo
In industry, what sorts of things would you do in the planning stage of a large project? For my senior design project I haven't really felt clued into what the client wants us to do, but now I think I do, and I don't think my teammate who has inadvertently become our leader is looking at the big picture.
My thinking is that we need to get a sense of what the main components of the project are going to be before we implement any of them because it looks to me like we might be painting ourselves into a corner with the first task the client wants. But the client said they can be flexible about that.
gritty chasm
Assuming I plan on getting into professional software development in the future, should I just assume now that I'm going to have to learn cpp eventually?
turbid ridge
Nah
Fully depends on the team you'll be working with
Software development is a broad thing
hexed moon
more likely safer to assume eventually your going to need to deal with Javascript than C++ in most jobs
turbid ridge
erhm....
Cautious guess, but I'd say the language you're most likely to encounter is java
rustic charm
Knowledge of C++ will open way more doors for you, but getting through those doors will more than likely also require knowledge of Javascript. The opportunities available with C++ are much more expansive than that of Javascript, but Javascript will more than help securing those opportunities
wind jacinth
Hey so Idk if this is the right place but I need to vent
There was an internship that I really thought I nailed the technical interview for and I ended up not getting it
Idk I just feel really crummy rn and I feel kind of like a loser
does anyone else ever feel that way?
Sorry if this is the wrong place for this
dusky dune
u can rant to me if u wish 😛
i have had that happen before too but it was dunkin for me
wind jacinth
the donuts?
dusky dune
yeah dunkin donuts
dusky dune
they made me drive 2 hours for an interview and then said theyd call me
wind jacinth
(wait are we allowed to swear in this server)
dusky dune
prob not its a partner server
wind jacinth
oops
wind jacinth
Sorry mods! I'l make sure it won't happen again
dusky dune
i didnt see anything anyways lol
wind jacinth
But yeah idk like I've had other interviews were I left and was like, "yeah I didn't get that"
dusky dune
yeah
dusky dune
well they prob will regret their choice in like 3 weeks lol
wind jacinth
(whats in 3 weeks)
wind jacinth
print("Yes")
console.log("I can");
lol
wind jacinth
that was probably the lamest way I could do that lmao
wind jacinth
I'm thinking about doing that on fiverr
wind jacinth
yeah of course!
dusky dune
but the commands are hard
wind jacinth
New projects are always good!
dusky dune
i just think itd be a good way to learn
wind jacinth
yeah I get that
dusky dune
is their a way to coop on like vsc?
wind jacinth
Projects are def the best way to learn
dusky dune
or maybe a google doc or something? and yeah
wind jacinth
I think so? If not from like a normal way we can use github
dusky dune
oh thatd be awesome
reef dune
vast shoal
@wind jacinth @willow mason Refrain from posting images and memes in on-topic channels.
Also, this channel is for discussion of Python careers and the world of work.
If you want to arrange collaboration, you might want to do that in DMs.
cold cypress
Hey so is learning python only enough for a career in programming?
crude crown
no.
cold cypress
sad
distant crow
Python + JS is a powerful combination if you're in web development
fluid thicket
just learning a language won't get you anywhere
turbid ridge
Python + JS is a powerful combination if you're in web development
Sorta? Like..... they are both very similar, but I agree that they both seem to be used in web development a ton
white karma
JS for the front end and python for the back
harsh patio
Basically got into an argument with a coworker. That was fun
true harness
did you win
harsh patio
also, I feel like i have a weird form of imposter syndrome
I haven't felt secure in this job I have. I truly feel like I could be let go at any point
I think the work I do is good but that they don't like the speed at which I do it, or me for that matter
crude crown
You need to control their perception of your work.
for example, if the problem is the speed... keep the people that matter on the loop and make up plausible reasons for it taking longer than their expectations
harsh patio
I've been doing that. Feel like I'm pretty decent at that. I'm in contact with my boss multiple times a day
specifically about the 1-2 things i'm doing
also @unkempt spindle i'm not sure what you mean by that. Its a Data Science/Software Engineering job
crude crown
I think that was the question
harsh patio
Wasn't sure entirely haha
crude crown
either way, it seems you're aware and taking steps on that... do you have any coworkers elsewhere doing the same thing as you that are faster than you?
a very common problem
harsh patio
No. We are a small team and we typically all have different work around the same domain or problem to solve
crude crown
is that people except that data science work will have the same "velocity" (urgh) compared to regular software development work
harsh patio
Honestly I only care because I'm just trying to ensure im not at risk. I'm trying to leave this job anyways, but I need to survive probably 6 more months haha
crude crown
not sure if that's the case here, but it's a very common issue unfortunately.
harsh patio
That could be it. I don't even think its my boss who cares the speed I go. But she gets pressure from those above her wanting to see increased speed
So you might be right on that
crude crown
and the people on top think in regular software development terms...
which in turn percolates downstream
What you need to do then
or rather, first
are you working in ScrumTM?
and using JIRA?
harsh patio
lmao neither. We don't use -any- kind of storyboard
crude crown
so how do you keep track of work?
harsh patio
My boss creates a home up my ass and bugs me on a regular basis. Not being dramatic. Its why she messages me multiple times a day
I work day to day with her. I'm very micromanaged
crude crown
sorry, I laughed at "a home up my ass"
harsh patio
You should. Its a wild situation
crude crown
never heard of that expression before LOL
harsh patio
I tell my fiance I never know what i'm doing most days because we don't use storyboards to keep track of work or break up big projects. I just do what she sends me every day
crude crown
jesus christ...
shadow moss
Whatever pays the bills
harsh patio
Thats how i've had to learn to view it until I get a better job
keep my head down keep moving
pay the bills until a better opportunity is available
crude crown
yeah, I was going to suggest creating more issues than usual in order to kind of sandbag your work but I see it's not a possibility here...
You could try to nudge your boss to use Trello or something to at least have a Kanban board where issues can be put in place.
and to have a backlog and prioritize
this in order to have a more asynch process.
harsh patio
I might look into that. But considering i'm leaving as soon as a better option presents itself, I also might not haha. idk I might bring up. The other problem to it all is I don't ever have real opportunities to present these ideas
crude crown
I saw suggesting this in order to keep your boss off your back.
if you don't feel it might make a difference for your situation, then it might not be worth it.
still, I can't imagine working like that.
my day ain't being good either
harsh patio
I just applied for a new job anyways haha. Honestly, I had to stop what i was doing to apply
I'm extremely interested
keen lark
I don't know if this is the right channel. But I wanna know how do I start with Python for development?
I have a decent experience with ML/DL using Python
lime atlas
So guys I want to be a software engineer when im older and im going to try look for an apprenticeship what programming Language do you recommend I start with
as my first ever programming language
I was thinking Python or Java script
harsh patio
@keen lark what kind of development are you looking to do? Are you trying to leverage your ML/DL experience?
keen lark
Not particularly ML related. I wanna make my profile a lil more versatile. So, possibly web development for a start.
harsh patio
I ask, because I do both
for example, I took the basic Housing price data from kaggle, for example, and then I built a model, and stuck that model behind a web API, and made a flask website for users to input data that then gets tested against the model
keen lark
Yeah, that kinda stuff is cool. I'd love to learn that.
harsh patio
or for the Titanic Survival data, I wrote a C# application that does similar, but works with AWS Lambda and Sagemaker
keen lark
Yeah, how do I go about it then?
harsh patio
Learn a framework, honestly. For the housing regression one, I just did some studying on what web dev frameworks existed in python. Then I picked one that seemed 'popular' based off lightly googling jobs. And I just started going through basic tutorials for the small pieces I needed to learn
like "how to create a basic web page in flask". then "how do i make a form in flask". "how to send results of a form to a function". Just approach it piecewise
harsh patio
my last job used AWS and C# so admittedly for the other project I leaned on some of my past experience for that project
keen lark
Just one more thing, what all types of development are there? Might be a noob question, but still.
There's Flask for web dev, okay
What else?
I'm asking only for those that go well with Python
harsh patio
that i'm not 100% about. Things I've used python for in my past are: light web development, integration testing, AWS integration. Uhhhh and then of course the ML/DS space. I haven't looked much beyond that
oh game development i know you can do with it as well
but python as far as I know has the capabilities to be used to solve -most- problems. Whether its optimal there depends, but it typically can do whatever you need from my experience
Don't think it can be used for mobile development.
thats the only one coming to mind
harsh patio
No problem! Just don't take what I said as the almighty truth. I've only been a dev for a few years so i'm off limited experience and just what i've seen
keen lark
Sure, I'll read more about all of it. Thanks!
topaz tartan
there's Django too
shadow moss
lemonchicken, if you are making APIs and want to use Python, there is FastAPI
crude crown
Yeah, I'm using FastAPI currently, it's an interesting alternative
harsh patio
yeah flask and django were the two I saw for web dev
is FastAPI just a framework for making APIs? Like you don't need any kind of front end you just have APIs for backend work?
crude crown
It's an alternative to Flask essentially
harsh patio
interesting
vapid jay
yo
Are your portfolio's basically yourname.com?
Or can it be anything and no one cares? Cause i am planning on buying a domain
^ Job perspective
crude crown
Might be relevant for a bit of that social signalling
but I don't think it's that relevant TBH
it's for sure down the list on things to do.
rich marlin
Hi, I'm making my first resume right now and have gone through some templates, and I've seen that a lot of templates point technical skills in some kind of scale. I really don't understand that, how can I estimate how good I am in C in a scale of 1 to 5? There's always something to learn.
distant crow
it's strictly for RestAPIs
FastAPI is also suitable for GraphQL due to Graphene integration; and websockets thanks to Starlette integration. Websockets mean it's also suitable for other kinds of service requests including things like jsonrpc
right now, it's a better choice for a lightweight websocket server than Tornado and certainly lighter and more modern than Twisted
for GraphQL, it's a bit better than Flask as it automatically wraps queries in a thread runner, for what that's worth (not much due to GIL); on the other hand, you do have to write your own entrypoint handler, because the one that comes with graphene integrates with Flask Views, but it's a one-off 10 lines of code
therefore, I now recommend FastAPI over Flask for most kinds of backend that isn't generating templated views
harsh patio
@rich marlin i do a scale for basically things I’m proficient in, and then things I have experience with. That’s my scale.
tight loom
To anyone doing real enterprise work in python, should you use a raspberry pi and GPIO for enterprise applications and hardware control?
or should that all be done on lower level with a real microcontroller?
Would just a regular computer be acceptable with a gpio pcie card?
distant crow
rpi isn't environmentally hardened, the tolerance range on the GPIO pins is not very wide, and having an OS on microSD is liable to data corruption especially if you power-cycle the device, and running a regular linux kernel doesn't guarantee you IO latency if that's important for your application, failure testing is harder to test all eventualities. If you have a mission-critical application that is controlling hardware, don't use a raspberry pi
also, this is the wrong channel for that question, try #microcontrollers
vapid jay
hi everyone, just a question, how to maintain the log ? situation is, let's say a particular user is login in my website and i need to store information like time of login, time of useagae and how long he remained in the system, also he has access to certain modules/functionalities in system so it's record are also need to be saved, so question is how should i save the deatils, like keep record of everylogin and histoy table for module access thing in database or a log file ?
topaz tartan
@vapid jay did u take a look at the channel name? 😅 wrong channel dude maybe #web-development
vapid jay
oh , thanks @topaz tartan
vapid jay
which is a good framework to choose for mobile cross platform?
something easy to learn and pickup
gilded valley
Pretty much the only options are Dart+Flutter or React Native
Of the two, Dart/Flutter seems like the best choice
I don't really think this is the right channel though
vapid jay
ok thanks and do you know so which is right channel, i couldnt find any so thought to ask here because maybe people have done this in the past for their career with similar choice?
digital fjord
inner wrenBOT
dense bluff
so is it at all reasonable to think you can get a programming job WITHOUT a CS degree? (I still have a stem degree)
gilded valley
Depends on where in the world you are - in the UK I know of multiple companies that don't care
dense bluff
usa.
vapid jay
in IT degree doesnt matter much
it does in fields like doctor on engineer
here knowlege, skill, portfoliyo , past experience etc matter more
and you can also get international certs instead of cs degree although if you wana get that you can it can be a bit helpfull.
@dense bluff
crude crown
oh man, my previous POS psycopathic manager was promoted to director this performance review cycle
jesus f'n christ
white karma
Probably gonna be a stupid question but I feel I gotta ask it.
I’ve got about six years experience being a security guard, which technically falls under the “customer service” umbrella in my area, how should I go about putting that on a resume
Also yikes, macha
crude crown
yikes indeed...
dense bluff
@vapid jay @shadow moss how good is good enough for entry level python job? like what should you be able to do?
shadow moss
@dense bluff whenever gets you hired but targeting Python only will be uphill
dense bluff
what do you mean?
shadow moss
few companies hire "Python Programmers", they want to see another language like Java/C#
vapid jay
I want to start in Cybersegurity, for doing that I'm going to buy a new computer which allows me to have many virtual machines where I could practice on them an simulate attacks.
My question is, is this a good pc for fullfilling this purpose? https://pcpartpicker.com/list/bt6WGq
Thank you very much.
daring rivet
yeah looks like a good pc for that
although
you might want to get more than 500gb ssd for storage especially if you are going to have to make lots of allocations towards your virtual machines
wanton scaffold
So for getting a job I should just quit doing python and focus on C#?
shadow moss
not necessarily
wanton scaffold
My goal is to get a job, I'm (attempting) making AI stuff using opencv/tensorflow. If I demonstrate that knowledge can I pull a full time entry level jr s/w engineer job? (With a little luck)
shadow moss
if company needs AI programmers, sure
faint sparrow
lol what about penetration tester
vapid jay
Yea they need emtoo
fringe terrace
you don't want an SATA drive for hosting your VMs. Get another SSD
mellow granite
Little rant
I'm basically self taught...got my first interview for a freelance job requiring python, was asked about unit testing and abstract classes...since I'd never really come across it, I simply said I didn't know... The impostor syndrome really kicked in after that interview.
hexed moon
Why sound like a motivation to reinvestigate your last hobby project and try either as a improvement in your work
mellow granite
Why sound like a motivation to reinvestigate your last hobby project and try either as a improvement in your work
@hexed moon
Yea...I guess I will kick out of it..and visit those concepts..thanks
crystal gale
Atleast you admitted to being wrong. Some employers would appreciate it.
distant crow
definitely learn about testing. as for Abstract classes, it's useful, but for bonus marks with recruiters, look into python structural subtyping with Protocols
PEP 544 explains why we'd use Protocols over ABCs if we're doing static checks: https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0544
you don't need formal learning to find out about these things (I'm not even sure they teach this in CS, but I've never studied it so 🤷♂️ ), but worth it for all developers, self-taught or not, to stay up to date with the new stuff, especially if looking for a job
I think if you're freelancing, if you are talking to larger clients, you're probably more likely to be asked about abstract classes/Protocols because one of the main reasons you'd use such a thing is to make it easier for new contributors/maintainers to a codebase to build stuff. And as a freelancer, if you are going to be working with companies with existing codebases, they probably would want you to know about it so you can jump right in
For companies that use freelancers or contractors to fill in for extra capacity on existing projects/codebases probably want people who can hit the ground running, and not have to be trained up with whatever tools/techniques are being used. So definitely know about testing. ABCs are more rare, but you should at least know of them. Brush up on static testing in Python too, still not widely used, but it's coming
mellow granite
Atleast you admitted to being wrong. Some employers would appreciate it.
@crystal gale
Thank you
@distant crow thanks a lot for taking the time to write all that, much obliged.. I will certainly look up the resources you mentioned.thanks again
For companies that use freelancers or contractors to fill in for extra capacity on existing projects/codebases probably want people who can hit the ground running, and not have to be trained up with whatever tools/techniques are being used. So definitely know about testing. ABCs are more rare, but you should at least know of them. Brush up on static testing in Python too, still not widely used, but it's coming
@distant crow
Yes....After searching, I immediately saw resources on ABCs. I certainly will know of them.Thank you.
hallow lynx
Anyone know where I could find work for cryptocurrency? I wouldn't mind underselling myself, I just don't know where to start.
hallow lynx
FOR
FOR Cryptocurreny
Anyone know how/where I could work for cryptocurrency i.e. get paid in cryptocurrency? I don't mind underselling myself, I just don't know where to start.
craggy elm
i feel like ABCs are a bit redundant honestly for python
hallow lynx
YES
uncut nexus
u can try freelancing and take ur payment in crypto
wispy cape
@craggy elm redundant in relation to what?
@hallow lynx that'd most likely not be legal, as it'd count as clandestin and/or unpaid work
craggy elm
redundant as in you can already get the vast majority of the functionality without it
maybe i just don't know something about ABCs in python though
wispy cape
you'd have to manually check all the methods, it's also useful for defining your own abstract classes which crash when you initialize an instance that doesn't have the correct attributes/methods
distant crow
it lets you enforce what method... that
hallow lynx
@wispy cape Not true at all, you can tax it as income.
distant crow
but Protocols is like ABCs but can be statically checked, rather than at runtime, which is even better
distant crow
(I think Protocol is subclassed from ABC anyway, so you get those runtime features too)
wispy cape
I'd rather do isinstance(x, Iterable), than hasattr(x, "__iter__")
OK my bad then semipro
craggy elm
you can get the same functionality by just raising a NotImplementedError though in the base definition
or maybe im just missing something
also, this is probably not on topic for this channe lol
wispy cape
It crashes at class instantiation
Yeah let's go to #python-discussion, nvm it's silenced
shadow moss
Most companies would not pay in cryptocurrency because by law, they must have info on their contractors
tawny merlin
idrk if this is gonna get answered in here but i was wondering what people’s thoughts were on going to like a state school for an undergrad degree in either comp sci or cyber security and then getting a masters in cyber security at a bigger university
^i know that i don’t really need to go that far to get a job it’s just for myself really but mainly just wondering like the gap between a state school program to a masters program at a bigger school
distant crow
it's an age-old question: does the prestige of the school matter? I want to say no. but the reality is that some people out there care. I think most would agree it mostly only matters for your first job
every other job is going to weigh previous job performance and experience more. the exception is maybe highly academic research roles
and sometimes if you become involved in fundraising
tawny merlin
Do you think that there is really truly a big difference in comp sci programs, at least enough to make it worth going there and living through that stress of the classes?
crude crown
it matters for your terminal degree
onyx burrow
it matters not if you have someone who can vouch for your skill and his recommendation helps, otherwise it does matter
spare abyss
im making twitter bots, but i don't know how to promote them
distant crow
give one of them a star, and call them General
or in other words... not here
use twitter, other discord servers where people show off work, etc. etc.
unless you want to make twitter bots your career, in which case, let's talk
spare abyss
yea not like promote the actual bots
but the service
i have a fiverr page, which i create bots - but i don't know how to promote it.
distant crow
well, as it happens, your market is probably on Twitter. Your bots go on twitter. seems like Twitter is the obvious choice, no?
make an account, promote yourself on there, promote your bot, make your bot do whacky stuff that gets attention
follow and engage with people who are the kind of people who are your target audience, etc. etc.
spare abyss
ok thanks
shut geyser
how do you guys deal with colleague constantly bikesheding
aka, discussing for hours about the color of the shed, leading to nothing of value being discussed
i have a hard time during my code reviews, where, even where i press Enter inside a documentation paragraph is being discussed
or "use + instead of extend() " in list
ect...
I'm at the point where i want to let my colleague work for me
crude crown
two things that come to mind
1- setup static analysis in your codebase to enforce a standard on some things.
2- In the scenarios that can't be dealt with the previous... have you considered simply talking to him first in a 1:1? (if push comes to shove, talk to your team lead or whatever but this should be a last resort).
Also, is he difficult like that with other people? (this is an important question as well)
shut geyser
everything is a 20/30 min loss whenever there is a discussion as they are persuated they are right , my team lead gave up
yeah i believe he is difficult like this and bullied my team lead into not coding again
we're a team of 3 and we can only go at colleage A pace
im just ranting now
crude crown
anyone else you could talk to in order to put a bit of sense into him? Again, have you clearly expressed this situation to him several times?
distant crow
sounds toxic
and also your team lead isn't allowed to give up on this, its their job to help fix this, and if they're not, then they're not doing their job
toxic people are toxic 🤷♂️ either they figure it out (maybe with help) and get better, or they have to go. Otherwise other people will walk
shut geyser
Colleague A is not understanding clearly the situation because they are slightly autistic (in the medical sense, not meant as an insult)
they are not in the capacity of understanding why this is detrimental for our work
because, for them, there is only one good way, theirs, and it is very important
distant crow
I don't think people with autism are incapable of understanding, but may need help with an explanation for why
shut geyser
and really, i voiced my opinion several times, but it is very hard to do so in a constructive manner, when given the subject
understanding okay, let'' say, appreciate the importance of something
all this opinions and color choosing are obviously very important to him, so much that they would change word choice, layout in my PRs, doing overtime in the evening or weekend
i spent 3 weeks convincing them to use black
for example
and a good 2 weeks and half about this was about line length and " " instead of ' '
distant crow
maybe tell them to create an autoformatter that works for them
if it doesn't matter to you that much other than the time it takes to argue about these details, then let it go
if it does matter to you that much, then you have an unreconcilable disagreement, and your team lead needs to figure out which one of you needs to go
this doesn't sound like a sustainable situation. so don't be afraid to take it to the logical conclusion
shut geyser
it still matters for code review, where, i have 30 comment in this genre, or if i want to use some lib or function they don't know/like/use, i have to face weeks of discussions
like, i let it slip, but i still lose valuable time
distant crow
take a low-energy approach. ask them to suggest an alternative, and a time-frame in which to do it
"we need to deliver this in 2 days, you have until then to find another library, and implement it, or we go with this"
shut geyser
kinda what i do at the moment, except, i just go with their solution
distant crow
if they tire themselves out re-doing all of your work, then they learn the valuable lesson of why we have other programmers on the team
your team lead needs to fix this. if it's not getting better, someone has to go
shut geyser
yeah, i need to communicate it more clearly to my team lead
i don't wanna sound confrontational
so i tend to smooth the edges a bit, but they might misunderstand the situation
distant crow
I should clarify what I've said above in the context of working with colleagues who are autistic. I am absolutely a proponent of trying to figure out how best to work with each each other in a team. Everyone works differently, so a well-functioning team is one where people figure out how each other work, and make the compromises in order to work together more efficiently. This is more challenging for some people
but I'm also a strong believer that everybody has to meet in the middle. It's never a case that a newcomer must completely shed their personality and individualism to fit into a team; and similarly it's never a case that a team must completely re-shape itself to make allowances for one person. If either of those things have happened, then something has gone wrong
- the first case is how you end up with soul-less companies powered by dogma, people feel a lack of agency, and that breeds disinterest in the outcomes of the work that you do
- the second case, one person has been allowed to sway the entire group. if you're lucky, this person is Jesus, and everyone's for the better; but realistically that's not going to happen
in the end, you have to meet in the middle, that's not too much one way or the other. Unfortunately for some people that's harder than others. but I don't think you can afford to make an exception to something as fundamental to the operation of a company as team-building.
So, in my opinion, effort should be made to achieve this. which clearly it sounds like you have (I can only assume). And therefore if the result is not sufficient, then removing someone from the team is logically the only option.
re-organizing a team (including hiring/firing) is hard, nobody likes to do it. But to not do it because it's hard means the person responsible is:
- not rising to the challenge. we have to do these kinds of things sooner or later, you can't not do it just because it's unpleasant, why were you given this responsibility if you're not going do the responsible thing?
- has decided that other people's discomfort in continuing this situation is a more acceptable outcome than their own temporary discomfort in dealing with the firing, subsequent re-hiring
it's slightly more complex when the person has irreplaceable knowledge; but we try not to get into a situation like that. and often it's only in hindsight that you realize this person wasn't as irreplaceable as it might have seemed at the time
I've been through several of these situations in the past, one person we felt was irreplaceable because at first we thought: "they make everyone stressed, but that's the kind of energy we need because they get stuff done"; but it got too much for everyone, and they were fired. Their replacement turned out to be just as good without inducing the stress, so we were wrong, and allowed a bad situation to go on for too long because we feared not finding someone as good
in another situation, one person was really good, they had the knowledge, the technical ability, and the management skills. Unfortunately they were involved in some nasty business I won't get into (though it wasn't fully their fault, they were complicit, but didn't realise it and that in itself was a problem), and had to be fired along with several others involved. We thought we were doomed, this was a key person with key knowledge, and we didn't have the time to make an orderly transition. However, the rest of the team really stepped up to fill those gaps, and you know what? I think everyone on that team got a bit better at their jobs in the process
random shuttle
My grandfather used to say "graveyards are full of irreplaceable people and see, the Earth is still turning around"
distant crow
that's perfect
brazen valve
Can I hire here?
gilded valley
no, see the channel topic
crude crown
I really second what meseta said, you need to be straightforward with your colleague if you feel he's slightly autistic (by tech standards).
and also really great content on the topic of dealing with all sorts of people in the team @distant crow.
shut geyser
thanks for the write up, i was away for lunch
craggy elm
the situation you're describing is exactly the stimulus that made me change jobs recently
shadow moss
Emberduck, sometimes the "Constructive Approach" may not work. If you haven't done blunt, you might consider it
vapid jay
I've been through several of these situations in the past, one person we felt was irreplaceable because at first we thought: "they make everyone stressed, but that's the kind of energy we need because they get stuff done"; but it got too much for everyone, and they were fired. Their replacement turned out to be just as good without inducing the stress, so we were wrong, and allowed a bad situation to go on for too long because we feared not finding someone as good
in another situation, one person was really good, they had the knowledge, the technical ability, and the management skills. Unfortunately they were involved in some nasty business I won't get into (though it wasn't fully their fault, they were complicit, but didn't realise it and that in itself was a problem), and had to be fired along with several others involved. We thought we were doomed, this was a key person with key knowledge, and we didn't have the time to make an orderly transition. However, the rest of the team really stepped up to fill those gaps, and you know what? I think everyone on that team got a bit better at their jobs in the process
distant crow
oh yeah, me too, exactly that situation. how bizarre, are you me?
lime atlas
So guys I want to be a software engineer when I'm older and I'm going to try look for an apprenticeship what programming Language do you recommend I start with? I was think pyhton or java
wispy cape
It doesn't matter what you start with if you don't already have a very clear idea of what you want to achieve in the long term
Knowledge transfers between programming languages
The most important factor is "does that language have a large community?", and both python and java have yes as an answer to it
If you can't decide, flip a coin
distant crow
clearly it's python
hoary hazel
having done both java and python I'd also say start with python as it's easier
distant crow
I think it may have been a mistake to come to a python server and ask whether you should learn python or <other language>
but biases aside, I do think python is a much nicer language to start learning, and maybe even nice enough that you never want to touch java ever
hoary hazel
I probably should be practicing my java more but after starting python I've really been not wanting to go back to java
jolly sentinel
I'm trying to get an internship but i got a low gpa and i took a semester off from school.
I know how to program tho. I got a few projects.
distant crow
blame it on covid. everyone's year has been messed up. I've seen loads of people take a year off studying, of course plenty of people have unfortunately been laid off, others have taken the opportunity to quit their jobs and chase their dream careers
jolly sentinel
You're right. It's a mess
Any advice on finding people who i can build projects with.
fringe sierra
Should we all have side projects going on? Sometimes the question comes up and the person who asks is surprised if you say you don't have side projects
mossy latch
Got rejected on a junior python software dev role, any idea on what projects/unique languages i need to learn to apply to a role similar in the future?
@fringe sierra usually you should
jolly sentinel
What are you guys most proudest project?
I made an application that collected stock data from an api and saved the data into a aws bucket.
fringe sierra
@mossy latch You don't find yourself tired of code or databases after a day of sticking your head in them?
mossy latch
@fringe sierra I stick my head into what interests me which is a huge backlash in school environment so, no not really
jolly sentinel
@mossy latchwhat have you been interested in recently?
mossy latch
The only thing im tired is learning about useless shit or things which nobody tells me what to apply to in the real world, thats why im diving into libraries and reading use cases and documentations
jolly sentinel
I know what you mean. Some curriculums are too generalized.
mossy latch
Im interested in finding a junior job but no luck as of now.
jolly sentinel
Aren't we all. Lol
mossy latch
Im learning Mern stack, and selenium for python
jolly sentinel
Do you plan to do anything with it?
mossy latch
Also started collecting coding websites like leetcode, hackerrank, codewars, etc and plan on doing them, I also found neat paid contributions but they seem advanced
Yeah i want to use selenium to get data from a website and then load that with pandas into the code
With mern stack i need to read docs and projects to get an idea
Im also trying to get a grasp of what actual projects look god from an employer point of view, so far no luck
distant crow
Should we all have side projects going on? Sometimes the question comes up and the person who asks is surprised if you say you don't have side projects
totally, I have so many side projects, so many people have side projects
it's a good sign that you enjoy making stuff, and have an ability to direct your own learning in order to do a thing
though sometimes people are just too overworked to have projects, which is a shame
jolly sentinel
@distant crow what's your most recent side project?
distant crow
trick question - my most recent side project is a whole company i'm trying to start up
but it might also be this cheap robot arm I have on my desk that I'm trying to get some RosPy action going on
or it might be this python-based mini programming language parser, and javascript-based node editor that's in this game dialogue manager tool I made with some friends: https://quack.games/
or maybe it's these python tutorials I'm writing
I have too many things on the go
jolly sentinel
What is the company?
distant crow
in so much as everything has a web element to it these days. conventionally no, but it does use the internet
also not a great topic for this channel
my advice here is: do a side project because you're interested in doing something and have that itch to make something with your hands. If you don't feel it, then don't push yourself to, it'll juts be another chore you're not interested in
marsh wind
I'm kinda getting enough stuff done on my job to not really go into side projects for a while now. But I do plan to combine some things I wanted to learn with my job :)
jolly sentinel
@distant crow you're definitely right. My delima is my lack of a team. I actually started a business January but now i basically have to start from square one. And trying to do it all on my own was my downfall.
distant crow
good luck with that
jolly sentinel
Same to you.
gilded valley
What do you mean by reputation? How prestigious the university itself is?
jaunty mist
ranking
ranking in my country
also how much diffrence will i see in terms of salary or acceptance for a job if i join a state univ or any prestigious college(like ivy league)??
neon moat
a degree will help you get an interview, how you perform in the interview will determine how much you will be offered (usually)
a degree does not equate to amount of an offer
shadow moss
your university in United States can matter on getting interview for certain positions. Ivy League Degree might get you interview for positions others with similar work experience would not be interviewed
hoary frigate
Anyone perparing for coding interviews?
cedar cosmos
yeah maybe me
vast shoal
@fierce vapor We don't allow either recruitment or job solicitation on this server.
fierce vapor
shrewd mist
vapid crater
location?
obtuse ridge
Hello. What jobs would I be equipped to obtain if I have some experience with microsoft suites, python, VBA and SQL?
royal jewel
Are software engineers and other computer scientists expected to be proficient in only one programming language of their choice or do they have to be proficient in a variety of different programming languages?
I'm thinking about maybe learning Python along with another programming language(s)
wispy cape
You will be expected to be able to pick up new languages easily if/when the need arises
Either way I don't think I know anyone who only knows one language by the time they graduate or find their find job
Even my coworkers who aren't programmers by career (but still write code) know at least a few languages
royal jewel
So it's a good idea to learn more than one programming languages?
wispy cape
It is required I'd say, both for the potential use you can make of these languages but also simply the learning aspects
royal jewel
Okay, thanks for the advice!
I think I'll go with Python, Java, and maybe some HTML-related language
wispy cape
Can't go wrong with that
royal jewel
Might change my decisions soon
teal wren
But focus on one first, no?
mortal hazel
This all depends what kind of job you want to start out in and what path you're willing to take. I work in a non-programming field doing almost exclusively Python stuff but I didn't even know that I when started. I had a very cursory understanding of Perl and could make graphs in R.
wispy cape
Yes, you should focus on one language first, to learn the fundamentals of programming rather than a specific language
royal jewel
Sounds good
wispy cape
And yeah I assumed you were referring to a typical software engineer position
mortal hazel
I started out in a pretty low-end role but it let me get a ton of on-job experience to the point where I have since applied for "software developer" roles and been somewhat successful
hexed moon
My choices are Java rust and python personally
But I don't yet work in software dev just it admin and script kiddie for holding duct tape of small business it
neon moat
why do u need to learn two languages? the fact is you dont need to to get a job
if you are just starting programming from scratch then learning one language is hard enough
wispy cape
You don't need to for some position, but in the long run you will be expected to
And some position do require you to know several languages
mortal hazel
I'd be kind of surprised if many genuine entrylevel positions required actual proficiency in multiple specific languages
wispy cape
I'm basically doing the equivalent of a co-op right now, so not even actually a junior position, and the listing had like 7 languages listed (it was bs), but i still ended using 3 of them to various extent during the year
And this type of listing wasn't rare at all
mortal hazel
There's a big difference between what somewhere puts on the job ad and what somewhere will take
Best change I ever made was just applying to jobs I believed I could do even if I didn't think I checked all the boxes on a listing
past carbon
distant crow
I agree with Igneous, definitely expect to know more than one language; you don't necessarily need to know the language, but you may need to have some exposure to it. The simple example is if you're a python backend web dev, you're going to need to deal with some frontend javascript sooner or later
similarly, if you're in robotics with Python as a stack, you're probably going to end up touching either embedded C or C/C++ device drivers
plus knowing two languages gives you a lot better perspective on language features. In my case, javascript really helped me use more functional programming things and async in Python
I use Python primarily, but I'm handy with javascript, particularly Vue.js frontends; but I started out as a PHP freelancer, and then got into electronics/robotics with embedded C for a while. Plus was forced to use Matlab at uni. So technically I've used five languages, but I'd never touch PHP, or MATLAB willingly; and C reluctantly
still very much primarily Python and JS
rich birch
I know okish amount of python how can I raise some money
Like doesn't matter how much just
Something
crude crown
"Plus was forced to use Matlab at uni." 😂
distant crow
I don't need more 1-indexing in my life
torn coral
We use the languages and frameworks only like an outil to resolve the problems, no really metter the instrument, only make an good music (my idiom is no english, I'm try haha)
craggy condor
@rich birch if u know django or flask look for crapy company websites and call them and tell them u will redo it for cheap
wanton scaffold
If I'm looking for a legit software dev job to get into the industry the quickest way possible which field is most friendly to new coders? Machine Learning/AI? Web?
ocean ledge
if you just want to get into software, go into webdev-- it's easy and requires the least prereqs
rich birch
Surpringly enough I already know html css and node js but Web doesn't appel me that much
teal wagon
Not sure if this is allowed, but would anyone be willing to give my CV a once-over? I'm applying for a job that I desperately want, and want everything to be perfect
wispy cape
I don't see why it wouldn't be allowed, just make sure it is properly anonymized
crude crown
webdev is surely the easiest.
marsh wind
yeah, and ML/AI can be defo much harder if you don't have a compatible background
rough sable
Can someone PM me with advise on getting a career in software development? I've been teaching myself on and off using Google and udemy courses etc, just wondering what I can do that will land me a job and how I can build a good portfolio with no prior industry experience. Thanks!
vapid jay
So I want to be something like an computer programmer or in software development, how will I achieved it?
tough rivet
use stack overflow
harsh patio
My boss is so bad 🤦♂️
crude crown
what's up today ryuphino? I bet your situation isn't as bad as mine...
slate cave
Anyone know if college admissions really look past the GPA and SAT Scores?
Like prestigous colleges such as MIT/Carnegie Mellon
Cause i have lots of projects, papers regarding cyber security, and a business all related to programming and stuff but my gpa and sat score is not so bueno
and i hope they wont just take one look at that and decide "nope we reject"
pliant pebble
not sure, honestly. im a junior. but regardless of sat scores and gpa. projects, and extracurriculars do help.
also i have a question. any hardware engineers here willing to tell me a somewhat detailed difference between hardware engineering and software engineering? ik one if more on hardware and the other is software and all that but im talking about daily tasks and stuff
distant crow
odd question, they're pretty different, and it's a wide field
though there's still the odd software devs when you're in hardware. I'll give you three examples from my career:
- electrical engineering. I was designing PCBs for quite a bit of it. daily task involves trying to figure out how best to implement certain circuits. this is a lot of looking at standard circuit designs, trying to find the right electrical components and ICs for the task, and reading their datahseets. SO MUCH READING DATASHEETS. calculating component values. and then eventually doing the actual design and layout. this is done through EDA software. which is about 80% just setting up the components so your diagram and connection logic check is correct. After that, it's almost like a puzzle game - connect the pins
if the circuit features a microcontroller, then there's probably a bunch of C/C++ development, this isn't too different from software dev, except for the debugging part, because when things go wrong, you can't be sure whether it's your code, or your circuit, or even just your prototype board build quality
from a project planning point of view, you can forget Agile and iterative software development practices. you're back in hardware land. it's waterfall all the way. remember, waterfall was the option we got rid of because we realized software could be iterated much faster when you don't treat it like it has the slow retooling of hardware
- motor design. this was actually mostly desk-based and building models in em-domain static and dynamic FEA. this usually means defining geometry in code; and then running the analysis to see what the resulting flux looks like over a commutation of the motor. eventually if you end up actually prototyping the motor, the job involves CAD and more traditional mechanical engineering work. I'm less familiar with this stuff
- drivetrain development. I spent a couple years developing drivetrains for hybrid and electric vehicles. that work mostly revolved around high-level component selection, and drivetrain simulation to correctly size components; and running drive cycle analysis and exploring regenerative braking strategies and fun stuff like that. most of that is done on MATLAB (unfortunately) and simulink. it probably is closer to the work of data scientists than software engineers. the aim isn't to build software, but to build simulations of systems
as you might be able to tell, I was formerly a power engineer. I dealt with energy generation, delivery, and electrical machines (motors and generators). it's a subset of electrical engineering but has more focus on things like power converters, green energy, and electric cars
daily task are pretty different to a software developer, and very different across different hardware engineering disciplines. the three above were just different tasks for a power engineer! imagine how different they are to civil engineers, aeronautical, mechanical, chemical engineers...
safe grove
Hello all, so i am looking for some good sites that offer a SUPER rusty coder/scripter some examples of typical python interview/coding exercises for an interview in a few weeks. I need to be heads down and really grasp all the logic/concepts. Can anyone here recommend some worthy sites that offer interview like code challenges (with python?) Very much appreciated! 🙂
finite geyser
Hello all, so i am looking for some good sites that offer a SUPER rusty coder/scripter some examples of typical python interview/coding exercises for an interview in a few weeks. I need to be heads down and really grasp all the logic/concepts. Can anyone here recommend some worthy sites that offer interview like code challenges (with python?) Very much appreciated! 🙂
@safe grove There are several courses online, but this one has been the best one I've come across with: https://www.udemy.com/course/complete-python-developer-zero-to-mastery/
Also, there is a prep course for the PCAP Python cert, and the course is free (if you complete it successfully, you get a 50% discount voucher for the PCAP exam): https://www.netacad.com/courses/programming/pcap-programming-essentials-python
If you just want a brief check on your Python skills, you can check w3schools quiz on Python: https://www.w3schools.com/python/python_quiz.asp
topaz tartan
Is it common to modify your CV according to each job you're applying for based on their job description?
hmm what to do incase someone contacts you and asks for CV without sending the job description
should I ask for it 🤨
dry sapphire
should I ask for it 🤨
@topaz tartan yes IMO
Is it common to modify your CV according to each job you're applying for based on their job description?
@topaz tartan and yes, in general
in particular to highlight what's asked for in the job description
having in mind that the first person who looks @ your CV will probably be a recruiter/other non-technical person
who spends no more than a little time on it
topaz tartan
because I'm afraid if I don't modify according to job description, I might not see much conversions and they might simply tell me I'm not a fit without giving me specifics
even if it's a skill I might be able to pick up but forgot to mention in CV
orchid ivy
a resume should always be tailored to the job you are applying for. always ask. it's the recruiter's job to give you the information you need, but you need to be proactive.
topaz tartan
Guess I'll ask them for details before sending my CV out to them
shadow moss
!resources
inner wrenBOT
@shadow moss Per Rule 6, your invite link has been removed. If you believe this was a mistake, please let staff know!
Our server rules can be found here: https://pythondiscord.com/pages/rules
open patio
!whitelist add guild_invite https://discord.com/invite/Y8Mqbkk
tropic ridge
topaz tartan
so u usually only whitelist programming servers?
shadow moss
@rugged viper i think it’s time for me to head to bed. Channel has fallen.
Night dude
rugged viper
In case you didn't hear me, goodnight.
unkempt cloud
Do you guys think getting into a high end college is important for having a good career?
I'm tired of college. I'm applying and I know I'm not going to get in to the school I want. I hate academics, and I'm curious if my dream of having a good career depend on me getting into a decent school. I try hard at programming, I'm just not good at focusing on school.
orchid ivy
@unkempt cloud, it depends what you want to do. some colleges are known for their alumni network.
shadow moss
College will always help
even if it's not high end college, graduating will always be better then not
arctic oracle
I have classmates that graduated with me from a relative no-name university and now work for Google, Amazon, Microsoft, etc. I also have coworkers who graduated from no-name universities and are now chief engineers and technical fellows (although not at places like Google). It is really how much you put into it that determines how successful you'll be. A "good career" is however you define it. College will definitely help and a good college will potentially help more if you are good at networking. @unkempt cloud
shell verge
Hey everyone! I have a question about career kinda Python-related. I got a job interview as a tester. As part of my interview i need to make a technical and user documentation about how login on accounts.google.com works. I definetly can make a user documentation, but i really don't know where to look about technical stuff for that.
My question is:
Where should i look when i want to know how Back-end works on said login site?
Any help would be apreciated.
Thanks in advance!
distant crow
I dunno how much knowledge of the back-end you need for end-user documentation. I think you're probably better off knowing the different signin modes and 2FA that Google uses
for technical documentation, I'm not sure how much they're expecting. the most complex you can do without looking at actual source code, is to open up your browser's debug tools, and watch the requests flow when you log in. What servers does the frontend contact? etc.
for example, when enter my login details, I can see that the first step of the login process is an account lookup:
plus it fetches my account profile pic
and if I proceed to log in, more messages are exchanged until the page switches
you can document at least one part of the login flow from this for different kinds of account and 2FA settings/methods, but I don't know if that's the scope of what they're asking
shell verge
That is a nice lead! I was looking in the wrong part of the website. I was looking in source code rather than debug tool. Thanks for that!
Yet they told me, it doesn't have to be a "deep dive into back-end" just a short info for the programmer about login process.
crude crown
@distant crow didn't know you had professional experience in EE. You're truly a renaissance man!
distant crow
I started out there before I went into software! I went via drone imagine. one moment I was building drones, next moment I was building data processing pipelines using drone images
thanks!
bronze lily
Please guys help me to grow my youtube channel it is for programming and for Python especially
opaque silo
If anyone has a minute fill out my survey for university on Agile and Waterfall and what you prefer pls
Thanks
bronze lily
@opaque silo please take a look at my video and tell me your opinion please
https://youtu.be/BrObDs2SaFA
true harness
hey @bronze lily you were already told that you shouldn't advertise your vid here
bronze lily
@true harness please give me your opinion on my channel I really care about it
weary marsh
do u guys think cybersecurity is mainly focused with python
wispy cape
it isn't
"cybersecurity" is an incredibly broad field that encompasses so many things, you can't use one tool for all of it
it also actually involves much less coding than people make it out to be
slate cave
Anyone know if college admissions really look past the GPA and SAT Scores?
Like prestigous colleges such as MIT/Carnegie Mellon
Cause i have lots of projects, papers regarding cyber security, and a business all related to programming and stuff but my gpa and sat score is not so bueno
and i hope they wont just take one look at that and decide "nope we reject"
Please @ me if you respond, I don't have notifs on for normal messages
lilac granite
Hey guys!!! A quick question. All I know is python but no frameworks to go with it. Is it a good idea to learn algorithms using python and aim to get a job as a software engineer? Anything else that I should learn or should be aware of?
do u guys think cybersecurity is mainly focused with python
@weary marsh No man!! With python it is just scratching the surface. Python does make it easy to prototype and stuff but it cannot do everything.
weary marsh
oh ok thanks @lilac granite
lilac granite
Where are you at with your cybersecurity thing? @weary marsh
tribal gazelle
@slate cave pretty sure that all of those extras count as a +, but you'd still need a minimum gpa/sat score
rugged isle
@slate cave a lot of prestigious colleges wont even look at your application if your gpa/sat score isn't above a certain threshold
radiant stone
hello
sage walrus
hey... i've interest in data science with python. can anyone suggest the career as a data analyst. I've now pursing my mca course
mint elbow
Hey all. (Cross posting here from #data-science-and-ml... apologies if you happen to see in both channels) I'm currently training in Python for DS/ML/AI and would like to specialize in Spatial Data Analysis. I have a formal university degree with majors in Geography, Economics, and International Studies. Does anyone have suggestions for projects / additional training in this specific area? I've done more generalized bootcamps in Py, NN, etc. but would like to get some (preferably guided) experience with spatial data in ML/AI, including display via GIS. Any suggestions are much appreciated!
knotty hare
what kind of jobs/work are you hoping to do?
thorn path
@unkempt cloud It depends on what you want to do. First decide what you want your career to be and that will determine if you need college. If you're doing tech or programming you don't need more than a 2 year associate's degree from a community college and certifications. you can then get an entry level position and work your way up.
and if you already have a body of programming work or other work you can showcase on a blog or present to a potential employer to show your skills, you don't even need community college. You need skills that provide value to an organization and a body of work that is proof of those skills. that proof can be certifications, a degree, a blog or anything else that could showcase what those are to a potential employer
vague echo
Hey guys, do you think it's ok to quit a job (permanent contract) after 2 months ? And do you think I can get backlisted for that ?
wispy cape
It's fine, as long as it's not repeated, at which point recruiters will start to raise an eyebrow when reading your resume
That's what trial periods are for, in case the job/employee doesn't fit, yeet
But if it's the 6th job in a row one quits within 6 months, maybe one should re-evaluate their career choices and what they are looking for
vague echo
so in my situation, I did a 6 month internship and I graduated. The same company made me a job offer.
and I don't want to get blacklisted if I leave after 2 months
I was thinking that the internship is kind of a trial period so...
wispy cape
You won't get blacklisted, dw
vague echo
I dont know if it's ok
wispy cape
You don't owe anything to your company
vague echo
ok 🙂 thanks !
queen briar
@unkempt cloud It depends on what you want to do. First decide what you want your career to be and that will determine if you need college. If you're doing tech or programming you don't need more than a 2 year associate's degree from a community college and certifications. you can then get an entry level position and work your way up.
@thorn path @unkempt cloud That's a high value tip! Decide your gaols and than build your way up.
I came from mech engineering and decided I want to work with software engineering and archtecture.
As AC/DC once said "It's a long way to the top", but there are many viable paths that lead to our goals, each person has a unique background and will trail a different path
dense bluff
whats the reality of these job desciprtions vs what they actually hire? like they want CS degrees, 3 years 'production' experience, skills in every known language...
I am just completely screwed or i see people say this is more of a wish list
hoary hazel
well I'm excited as a freshmann mechanical engineering I got a job as a developer/support that with a small startup company
because that makes sense
distant crow
most of the time it's a wishlist
often safe to consider a fit if you match most of the requirements
I try to get ours to be spot on, but I think this is probably a minority
crude crown
have you folks felt so pissed off at your current job that you feel like just quitting the next day without having anything lined up?
harsh patio
Yes lol
I have some really good days at my current job. Today has been pretty good. Last week or so have been great. But its all because i've had little interaction with my boss and instead just do my work
the more i have to interact with her the more I become infuriated
marsh wind
Wishlist for sure. If it's huge requirements list then most likely they will be happy with person with 60-70% of those
Anf if you are good I assume even 50% would be solid chance. Cause some of those requirements they put out are often very disjoint from reality
And the one hired me, was shortest job description I ever saw
harsh patio
While we are on the subject
How close to the number of years in job experience do you think people realistically expect? If they say would like 5+ are they even considering someone with 3? Or does it depend solely on the resume?
crude crown
5+ can be anything from 6 to 20
marsh wind
I think it depends on many things. If your 3 were 99% relevant to their position itsm sure they will consider.
crude crown
having that said, if you have 3 year of xp... it's worth a shot
marsh wind
Also, most likely they might hire someone less experienced on smaller pay who will work now if they see that they aren't getting any od those 5+
My company almost did that
crude crown
that's also a possibility for sure
harsh patio
I'll be happy the day i'm considered senior
marsh wind
we were looking for senior dev for android but didn't have all that much luck, so a guy wih about 4-5 yrs with last 2 being purely ios was seriously considered in the position
crude crown
it's a very fleeting kind of hapiness
marsh wind
luckily (I guess) there was a candidate who've been android dev since its release who applied
marsh wind
but we have to wait 3 moths till he can start
harsh patio
I guess if they are such a good match
crude crown
I used to do some stuff with Android a while ago
haven't touched it since 2017 though
harsh patio
I'm applying for jobs now despite not being to leave for nearly...5 months lol
marsh wind
yeah 20 years in Java, with some embded experience, blackberry and some other cool stuff
crude crown
is he being compensated accordingly to that XP?
crude crown
yeah, typically it isn't expected
but there might be some public salary bands or something
harsh patio
I feel like opportunities open up when you become senior. Not sure how true that is, but it felt like having 3 years of experience got me more looks than when i had no experience
crude crown
I was talking about being the company itself showing those salary bands, although it's rare.
marsh wind
oh
nah
they are not those kind of guys 🙂
but I am sure they made solid offer, because on several projects good android dev would be crucial
and even being not most generous in offers, I know they understand the importance
crude crown
@harsh patio yes, opportunities open up more for sure... although there can be a point where you have too much XP
but I'm talking about 10+ years
marsh wind
I alone pushed our CTO/cofounder a lot to get us android guy 🙂
crude crown
nice
yeah, for my current company... I'm advising everyone to really consider not joining it
marsh wind
I wish I could push them as vigorously for the salary raise for me 😂
crude crown
and they even ask me to refer new people to the company... only when hell freezes over.
harsh patio
Speaking of, I still kind of feel like i'm not making what I should be at my point in my career
another reason i'm gonna stay looking
crude crown
I truly feel you on that...
harsh patio
like medium CoL at like 72K for 3 years experience. Just feels low compared to what i'm seeing others do
crude crown
don't seem to be market rate to me but I'm not that aware of US values outside the usual places.
harsh patio
In their defense, When I applied I was missing real experience with half the job requirements so they offered me lower I think considering I had experience for only half of it
crude crown
companies will always take any opportunity to lowball you and disregard your experience and know how
you should have faked it a bit and made up for it during the first months on the gig
crude crown
you mean they don't give any space for "personal development" (whatever that is)?
harsh patio
yeah. For growing your skills. Ensure you're actually developing as an engineer
crude crown
disclaimer: I'm a cynic, so take what I say with a grain of salt if you want
but it's you that needs to take an proactive approach on that
you can't count on companies to provide that space
harsh patio
I already do. I just like having a job that actually promotes it. I do personal dev working a side job among some side projects I have. But I should -feel- like i'm developing at my job. I don't ever feel like that because I don't feel the job is really teaching me or that i'm learning much
crude crown
it sucks that it has to be this way in tech, but that's the way it is.
harsh patio
I get challenged but my boss is so terrible projects dont have clear direction and as a senior she doesn't really knowledge share anything. I just go solve a problem and then its like, yeah okay heres your next task
crude crown
I understand.
well, in my first 3 years of working I didn't really have anyone or "seniors" to guide/teach me so I really had to buckle up and be an autodidact on this.
harsh patio
yeah thats what i've been doing in my spare time. Basically spend 10-11 hours a day working or working on something
and somehow I still can't get a decent offer
wild
crude crown
maybe it's the way you're marketing yourself.
harsh patio
Maybe true.
harsh patio
Im not a creative individual so you're missing me on that one haha
crude crown
dude, it's not creativity at all
at least for me it isn't
it's salesmanship
I have a natural abhorrence towards it but it's a necessary evil.
still, consider your resume
harsh patio
I feel like my resume is pretty good. Shows a strong learner with an array of experience in backend engineering and Data Science (if applicable). Shows Solo work and group work. Shows experience in all sorts of frameworks/languages/technologies. While also being concentrated to some core ideas
like, my experience circles around two primary languages, around a few frameworks/concepts like containers, caching, SQL databases, one web service so i've worked with 'the cloud'. And then Data Science/ML work if applicable
Feel like its pretty concise
crude crown
it sounds like it's fleshed out indeed.
harsh patio
and my personal projects circle around this ecosystem as well. I don't want to relearn languages or anything
but i'll learn new frameworks
marsh wind
Maybe the way you present /behave yourself in interviews?
Like... Are you not getting good offers after series? Or too few interviews even?
crude crown
I thinks it's important to understand which step of the pipeline there are failures
if it's on getting the interviews, the interviews themselves or wtv.
marsh wind
like.... maybe they pick up your negativity on your current job and fgure out you itch to ditch it
harsh patio
Naw I doubt its the negativity portion. I'm a super chill easy going guy. I'd say I get taken advantage of in that regard. But in interviews I'll come off as pretty relaxed, friendly, and easy going
Its gotta be the resume because I just don't get a lot of phone calls. But I also live in a smaller tech hub so isn't a whole lot available.
marsh wind
cold calls, or from active application sent?
harsh patio
active application sent
I need to work on leetcode also. I'm really mediocre at leetcode
crude crown
yeah, I don't see anything obviously wrong with your approach.
marsh wind
😕 hard to say really, we don't know you as person, nor we saw your cv. Also, covid times are really messing up everything from what I hear
crude crown
having that said... referals are gold
harsh patio
Yeah its probably a few parts of things. I've been working in group settings for years. Like my entire college career was spent working with others. I'm really good at that as long as people are not over bearing. My fellow employees were the best part of my last job
so on that front i feel really good. But probably a mix of resume/interviewing/skills
crude crown
you could try to get in touch with people (that you might know) on other companies that might provide you with a referal
harsh patio
I don't know anyone out here. I moved across the company from my last job
marsh wind
what about meetups?
crude crown
doubt there are meetups during COVID
marsh wind
again, covid messing them that up, but still worth a shot
crude crown
unless they're fully online though
marsh wind
i saw quite some moving online for time being
harsh patio
I actually did want to get back into meetups but covid also screwed that up haha
I used to go to a couple where I last lived
Went to one for AWS a few times. And a Data Science one a little
I never consistently went to any but i'd pop in when they were covering certain subject matter
marsh wind
for resume, maybe try to tailor it even further for position in question? I guess you do already, but perhaps not enough?
harsh patio
That is entirely possible
marsh wind
it does take more time
harsh patio
having Data Science/Backend Engineering experience there might be too much bleed from either side for a position that doesnt use both
crude crown
tayloring resumes a bit more might make sense as well.
it takes more time... but you have some time anyway so
marsh wind
exactly why I mentioned that... cause if you try for backend they really will care little for your DS work
even can play against you because often DS/ML peeps are notorious for doing stuff in jupyter notebooks, no code structure,etc
crude crown
never heard about the latter happening TBH
marsh wind
for real?
crude crown
but I can definitely see where it comes from
marsh wind
I mean, I literally have a guy like that next to me
crude crown
I mean, yeah I acknowledge that happens
marsh wind
he's totally briliant guy
harsh patio
and they don't have standard software engineering skillsets of any sort. Terrible variable naming conventions. Don't follow PEP8 standards
marsh wind
but his approach to code and etc is.... yeah
harsh patio
yeah
crude crown
but I think I've never heard about interviewers having that kind of prejudice if they come up with a résume with both XP in backend dev and data science work
harsh patio
i'm the guy on the team that takes ideas and turn them into algorithms or update the git repo, etc
crude crown
at least, I damn hope not because I'm exactly on that scenario as well.
but yeah, maybe that's a prejudice/bias I should keep in mind as well.
harsh patio
My job sometimes is more Data Science than Software Engineering, which is why I continue doing Software Engineering work
gotta keep up both sides of the resume
side job helps with that
marsh wind
lmao my officialy is data science, but I was doing much less of it compare to software engineering, DB stuff, testing or managing team
harsh patio
my job doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The data science part makes sense, but we shirk way too much of our software engineering needs off on other teams
crude crown
you arrive at a company... yeah totally different things expected
ideally, teams should be cross functional
and at the same time shouldn't require people that are jacks of all trades.
marsh wind
well, to be honest I was supposed to work purely in DS
when they gave me an offer
but then covid screwed up a lot their plans and etc
so they first put me on different project that became understuffed and then on another one so in the end I never got to work on one they hired me for
crude crown
damn
marsh wind
and probably won't now lol, considering how it all turned out. it is a bit sad, but overall I learn lots of things that I wouldn't otherwise, and my current team I really like
crude crown
well, despite that is the company treating you well?
marsh wind
We'll see when I ask for raise 😂
crude crown
fair enough.
marsh wind
But well, they seem to value my opinion, considering the story with Android dev
So there's that
And CTO overall is a good guy and tries to help with communicating with sales people or to handle some urgency
crude crown
sounds good to me. Doesn't sound like the political BS clusterfuck on my current gig.
marsh wind
Well I don't have a reference point to compare. But I don't have any huge complains or regrets except for being easily lowballed on salary and simply not asking for more from start 😂
but that's on me mostly
crude crown
it isn't on you, it's predatory behavior from companies... but yeah, next time you need to be careful with that.
rapid grotto
Hey guys, sorry to jump in the middle of the conversation, I was just wondering if you could help me to answer some questions.
Atm i am currently looking for a job that requires it, programming or data science. I also considered being a developer especially i python.
But however my hopes are high my qualifications are not. I started working with python one and a half years ago, but since I am self taught guy I just started to understand something more after finishing my thesis where I've used python.
Tell me friends. How much of the knowledge man needs to have to start his career as developer.
PS. So I understand the the first lesson of tonight's session is to value yourself 😁 does it apply to the junior positions as well?
@marsh wind
marsh wind
To an extent
In a sense that don't take a first shitty offer just cause they figure out that you might be desperate snd having no options
crude crown
yeah, but manage your expectations. We're in COVID times and it's rough out there for junior positions...
marsh wind
I know guy who did that and he hasn't got a tiny raise even despite starting in June 2019
marsh wind
Thing is he started with real real shit offer cause they saw him as cheap cause desperate.
crude crown
damn : /
marsh wind
🤷♂️ Yeah.
rapid grotto
Guys, how should I evaluate myself, fesh bachelors, I've done my BA thesis using machine learning, know excel SQL ml (supervised classifcatord) ect,
It's truly hard to evaluate my value 😂
Bloody market,
But I've heard also the thing about valuing yourself
Friend of mine is working in Berlin and he told me that you need to know how to bargain.
He told me that when he had meetings he said that other companies want him as well ect Spotify or something so they gave him pretty decent salary straight away
But since he got previous experience that was not hard. For newbie however it might be hard
Thx for replys
crude crown
he had alternatives, so he had some bargaining power
distant crow
power move: tell a company you're applying for that they need to make a decision in the next 2 days or you're taking another role
it's a gamble, but if you're confident, it can move things along. But you have to contend with the possibility that it'll hurt your chances too
harsh patio
If you have no real need to take a job, you’re just playing the market, I’d do it
rapid grotto
Yeah, life is a gamble 😂
twin fox
Excuse me, I would like to receive some advice. I been studying 3 weeks coding, and I just felt in love xD Right now I am in the process of making games, and after that I will try to make a web... Do you got any advice about how I should learn coding?
vapid jay
Just focus on one domain
Be an expert in it than you can switch it's not a problem
peak halo
!resources @twin fox
inner wrenBOT
robust cloud
Hi, how long would it take to learn a decent coding to apply for a job? I've started learning from Udemy yesterday. feels like i have a long journey, I wanna know when i'll see some big improvements?
south apex
@robust cloud It depends on your learning capacity
If you can understand concepts in one hour then its quick and if you need one day its normal
Applying for job might require some initial months of training
robust cloud
aight thanks
vapid jay
@robust cloud did u take the course by Jose? the bootcamp one
vapid jay
ohh the one by Ziyad?
i took the boot camp course and it was amazing @robust cloud sir Jose explained so well.
summer raptor
NOT FOR RECRUITMENT
still condor
!warn @hollow snow I have already told you that you can't recruit people on this server, and the channel description literally says:
NOT FOR RECRUITMENT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @hollow snow.
hot fable
hello
paper musk
hello
crude crown
hey
hexed moon
Is their actually discords people get work from?
Seems like a little unprofessional
A setting to look for work?
Or employees
jolly furnace
it real do be tough times rn... applied to 70 positions with no interview... or maybe my resume is weak
topaz tartan
try improving your resume (maybe get reviews here) before applying further
jolly furnace
u wanna look at my resume?
topaz tartan
sure ig, be sure to anonymize personal info 👍
jolly furnace
nice
huh weird formatting after uploading to google drive... the dates went to a new line...
well anyways i hope u can see it and btw im aiming to get some internship somewhere
sharp mirage
can anyone give me some career advice?
i am kinda starting machine learning now so i need some career advices
how can i get some jobs based on that
like part time or other things
topaz tartan
@jolly furnace sorry I went afk, just took a look at it now, so you included projects, that's good, do you have them running somewhere/hosted I mean?
like that Discord bot?
you can even include github links to them
odd merlin
Hi can anyone suggest me what things I need to learn to be a better backend developer
currently im learning django and about to do build a backend REST API
vapid jay
Can python be used for comptetive programming
nocturne harbor
of course
true harness
it may be too slow for some tasks though
I remember a forums post that recommended floats instead of ints for the speed
reef kayak
Does having an aws certification increases your chances of landing a better internship/full time job?
Did it help for anyone?
jolly furnace
@topaz tartan i actually had it run on an e2 but then i ran out of credits and now its running on my schools server
and oh yeah i kinda removed all the personal info includeing the github link
also anything to fix up?
topaz tartan
hmm, the layout seems all over the place I see a lot of gaps between texts, maybe you removed personal info from there
@jolly furnace ^
jolly furnace
@topaz tartan this is what it would have looked like with the personal info not blotted out (the big blue box is where the personal info was )https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q02EhX8lycR_D5b0FslDjYGdN7OCeHJE/view?usp=sharing
i made it into a pdf so google drive didnt mess up formatting
topaz tartan
hmm that definitely looks better, the doc was even 2 page
jolly furnace
yeah apparently drive does weird stuff with word docs
topaz tartan
u don't have experience as a dev yet?
topaz tartan
what's the flight analysis simulation thing
jolly furnace
some matlab thing for a school club
tbh its the only reason why i even looked into matlab
basically it runs a simulation with a bunch of different parameter and uses the outputs to find a distribution
jolly furnace
oh im still part of the club tho
jolly furnace
swe roles
no qa tho
tbh the matlab thing is prob not even relevant for most software eng roles
but then i did apply to some startup yesterday that said simulating dynamic systems would be a plus
i really hope i heard back from them bc i kinda like what they are doing
topaz tartan
I mean MATLAB is fine
tbh content wise it seems fine to me, but you still might be able to rephrase the points to be concise
jolly furnace
ah ic
topaz tartan
and you said you included the github links as well, then you should be good
maybe you could try getting some internships to get some experience?
jolly furnace
thats what im applying for rn lol
hoping to hear back from internships
i just hear others getting interviews for interships while me never hear back
so i just thought maybe my resume is weak or sth
topaz tartan
maybe just keep skilling up I guess unttil u hear back
U could try learning how to build APIs using DRF
jolly furnace
i guess django rest is sth to get more familiar with for sure
tranquil hornet
Django is heavier than flask, correct?
topaz tartan
it comes with more stuff
visual pumice
Would you guys please help me? What should I know in Python & Django to create a "Courier Based Web Application" ?
tame heath
Hey im a student with 2 years of python experience. I would say that Im an intermediate python dev. I want to get a parttime job where I could use my "python background". Does anyone have any suggestions for what types of jobs I could apply for?
inner wrenBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @vapid jay until 2020-10-18 16:32 (9 minutes and 59 seconds) (reason: duplicates rule: sent 4 duplicated messages in 10s).
golden onyx
Hey, I've been coding python for a few months. I have coded in java for a couple of years for school, but have made python my main language. All of the coding "challenges" i have tried i have completed successfully. A google interview question, and many problems on hackerrank as well as the problem solving test question. I also have created a few python applications, and I am pretty good with web scraping using requests and bs4. I also have done a little bit in other "fields". I am a junior in high school, and I want to look into getting a part time job as a python dev. How should I go about that?
inner wrenBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @steel ether until 2020-10-18 20:03 (9 minutes and 58 seconds) (reason: mentions rule: sent 94 mentions in 10s).
tawdry tapir
do anyone have any job for me?
i am designer
freelancer
and i am so much cheap
mitdasondi.github.io is my website you can hire me for cheapest rates anyone can offer and best quality and satisfaction guaranteed!
hexed moon
So advise for you Mr Pathetic. You should sell a value. Being cheaper is not a selling point. Nothing turns away clients than a product offering their benefit as being the cheapest
You want to be the best, cleanest code, great at understanding and being able to run from discussion to complete project
Never sell yourself because your cheap. As you won't get any good customers. You need to sell value not sell desperation when your the product your selling confidence is all you have
Good luck out there freelance is hard
sacred fable
@hexed moon this is excellent advice in general and can apply to anything you do. "Because we are the cheapest" turns peole away.
white karma
You get what you pay for
oak wasp
Hello I have one question. About what does a junior developer have to do at work?
mint citrus
learn
you are just expected to be able to learn. sure you will contribute to things but learning is the most important so you can contribute more in the future
scarlet hornet
so i used to work with Java and then got moved to Angular/C#/.NET stuff as an Application Developer - i was tossing the idea around of picking up python and was wondering what types of careers would that open me up to
i know theres a lot of data science involved with python
pure gust
i want to start a career in coding
tawdry tapir
@hexed moon yes but i dont have any project since 1 week and its hard to get projects , my skills are very good at designing but where i live there is no scope in this industry i just need anything to work on , but thanks ❤️
gusty hawk
Hey everyone
I am not much of an expert at Python at all but just cuz of my curiousity what's the career in getting a job as a programmer or scripter in a company?
I know that they will ask questions or give us an assignment to do when applying for a job but are there any other necessities?
Like PhD or any degree and moreover are there any colleges for CS? (I am pretty sure their are no colleges for CS but just wanted to know)
marsh wind
Degree is usually desired.
One in CS would be top, but overall stem degrees usually work
gusty hawk
Ok
Thanks
So basically I should try to get a PhD or a degree
But colleges are unnecessary right since u can learn that stuff by yourself?
marsh wind
PhD, no
gusty hawk
Masters?
marsh wind
BSc or master yea. Depends. In US they say BSc usually is enough
jolly furnace
i guess even with a degree is competitive
marsh wind
But colleges are unnecessary right since u can learn that stuff by yourself?
@gusty hawk yes and no. For someone without proved industry experience a college/uni degree is a way to pass the initial cv screening and get your foot in the door. Plus it gives a chance to start building a network
wispy cape
You're typically going to go through the usual "getting to know the recruiter", then a technical interview (or 7), then an interview with a member of the team you're gonna be a part of, in any order.
I'm not sure what you mean by "there are no colleges for CS" because you definitely can study Computer Science in university
marsh wind
I like yours technical interview or 7 😂
jolly furnace
im more of the noobier ones so im 0/70... wonder if i cant 0/100
wispy cape
That message took 10 minutes to send :(
normal forge
I'm not sure what you mean by "there are no colleges for CS" > because you definitely can study Computer Science in university
as an example ubc, uot + waterloo are best uni's for cs in Canada
not too sure about the states
vapid jay
@vapid jay Did you get hired?
@mint island No. I've got this assignment almost a year ago, completed it in haste and got declined - but they gave detailed feedback on my mistakes. Then about two weeks ago I decided to remake it since I know that this employer will need another programmist soon, and it turned way better this time
mint island
Thats some perservance
vapid jay
I work in another field, but want to move into development so I just code in my free time and monitor IT openings, which are very scarce in my city
mint island
Well, in a way, it may be a good thing that covid created so many remote openings.
You could score a wfh position if you open up your search radius.
vapid jay
I guess you're right, I'll look into that. Not sure if there are many remote entry-level openings though
mint island
Most big name corporations do wfh right now and wont be going back to office until june 2021 (Intel, Amazon, Microsoft)
and Amazon was recruiting heavily lately. I think you should try sending your cv their way
Thats mostly what I read in the tech news for my place
vapid jay
I don't even hope to get hired by such big corporations 😩
But I'll check our local big cities
mint island
I don't even hope to get hired by such big corporations 😩
But I'll check our local big cities
@vapid jay Thats why I am advocating for you to try. Because they aren't hiring just Steve Wozniaks there, they actually hire people, and some of those are entry, and they will ask you stuff that is entry level. They wont be asking you to make an OS from scratch on a blackboard.
vapid jay
Hm, gonna think about it then. Thank you
It's just that I educated in one field, work in another and now I found out that I like programming
mint island
Depends how far those fields are
I did electrical engineering, so its kinda close
What is your field?
vapid jay
Mine's a bit more off - industrial engineering, and I work as a warranty specialist at a truck service
mint island
I have a friend that moved in his organisation, from warehouse management to BI systems with an industrial engineering degree.
So its kinda far, but you can probably find something that will work.
vapid jay
Probably, but it seems better to keep learning on my own and find something unrelated to industrial engineering
mint island
have you considered a dedicated bootcamp?
vapid jay
Nope
keen gale
merry wyvern
anyone successfully transitioned from sysadmin to dev? im dying
wide blade
im thinking of being a game dev
dry sapphire
how important is it to learn and understand binary + arithmetic in software engineering and software dev?
@keen ridge you should know what it is...?
nobody is going to expect you to add 2 64-bit numbers together in an interview
gilded haven
I think it depends actually what you want to do
just go get passionate start doing projects work on what you like working on when a problem comes your way solve it or don't but realize solving some problems make more $ than others or being very good at one thing leads to a demand for your skills if you love something you will naturally tend to get better at it because it will be easier to put in the time to learn it
hardy salmon
wicked turtle
I would like to know from someone who works in web development, is knowlage about front end development like js, css and html useful even if mostly focusing on backend?
vast shoal
@wicked turtle A web project generally requires changes in both the backend and frontend on a regular basis, and it's an inconvenient limitation if you can only ever ask some developers to take on tasks in the backend.
If I hired a web dev, I would like them to be flexible and be capable of handling whatever needs doing. "Sorry, I only work in the backend" sounds like a poor excuse.
wicked turtle
Alright, thanks
Is there anything specific you would want them to know to do in frontend? @vast shoal
vast shoal
Familiarity with HTML, CSS and JS are the basics. It would be beneficial to have some experience with one of the major frontend frameworks, like React or Angular.
wicked turtle
Alrighty thank you again.
prime prawn
i work in the backend aspect but most of the time i have to get my hand in frontend framework, but i can learn them for implementation, they don't expect me to be good at designing. For backend html,css, a little JS knowledge almost a must even when working with backend frameworks
wicked turtle
When knowing the basic level of web development and after making some projects, would you recommend searching for places to get work experience and that way learn more real world scenarios?
prime prawn
yes, those are called internship if you are new to the industry or fresher if you already know what they required you to do. Both will teach you, fresher would more likely be both working and learning at the same time(so not as free or easy as intern)
btw don't take free internship, they supposed to pay you for spending your time