Community college works but no degree then
#career-advice
simple prairie
oh ok, in your case then it's prob best to just learn programming by yourself
opal perch
If you're learning it yourself SwipZy, read up on the post thats pinned here, about getting into the industry self taught
fervent plover
Ooh thx @opal perch
mint kernel
What do you do if you are hired for a python job?
I am very confused about the job opportunity python will give
vivid dock
Most other positions any other language can provide, but maybe more towards datascience, math, scripting and devops
But it's still used for applications and web related stuff as well
opal timber
What is it like to be a coder at a top company
pulsar drum
Not necessarily as spectacular as you might think
pulsar drum
For example, I know Google has a relatively high turnover for its engineers. Interpret that as you will.
Was trying to find this https://mtlynch.io/why-i-quit-google/
Talks about promotions
Not saying it's all doom and gloom either though
white karma
The way I see it, the turnover is so high because after you’ve worked there and can put it on your resume/CV, you can go do pretty much anything anywhere you want to
“Dude this guy was an engineer at google, google! We’d be crazy to not hire him!”
pulsar drum
Yeah, I think that's a big part of it
It still shows that employees are dissatisfied staying there
white karma
I really can’t blame them
pulsar drum
Not sure if it's because Google is the problem or because they'd feel that way at any job, and working at a prestigious company just allows them to leave earlier.
white karma
All the money they make goes to living in a high cost area
I also imagine working at the tech company is stressful
Despite all the supposed creature comforts they implement
raven blade
well, now you can work from anywhere for the next year
i know one employee that's moving home to my very-low-cost-metro due to that new allowance
white karma
That’s definitely my end goal
shadow moss
Also everyone thinks “Google! I’ll work on really cool stuff!” Then they join the team that’s keeping some decrepit internal tool going.
Google is big enough that they have enterprise type work going on.
Write new API that does this Google Sheet formula thing
distant crow
had that with an Amazon application, the position is for working on an internal framework to unify the way internal apps like Prime video run on fire stick and other embedded devices...hooray
mortal wedge
I applied to a google position that was like... researching new things they could do with code and it looked super interesting, but I think they wanted like phd peeps
distant crow
I declined the next step of the interviews once I found out exactly what the role was about
mortal wedge
work at an exciting big company doing something utterly pointless and boring!
white karma
I’d do it for a year
Far as I’m concerned I already do something utterly pointless and boring at my current job, might as well get paid more for it
mortal wedge
I could make 3 times as much as I am right now by working at facebook/google, but I wouldn't be working on anything anywhere near as exciting or meaningful
It's a tradeoff
It sucks that it's a tradeoff, but... 🤷♀️
mortal wedge
It's not always that simple. To make meaningful progress in important fields, you're going to have to work with experts in that field and most of your time and energy is going to go into whatever your daily job is.
At my current job I have access to the brain (pun intended) of a neuroscientist who has a shot at winning the nobel prize.
I'd never be able to get that kind of access or collaboration with him if I didn't work at his company
Even now, I'm being recruited for a diabetes company. Still important and meaningful, but a bit less exciting. Better pay, though.
But still, half of what I'd make at facebook/amazon
sturdy nest
what's your current role? @mortal wedge
mortal wedge
I am an algorithm/dsp engineer for the neuroscience field
mortal wedge
Surprisingly no, just old school digital signal processing stuff at the moment. Trying to pick up machine learning atm though
sturdy nest
ok. yeah, that's a bit surprising to me also, based on the hype most of the current work in neuroscience.software appears to be ml based
do you do python only, or cpp as well?
mortal wedge
Some cpp, mostly python at this time. Yeah, it's surprising, most people equate algorithm development to machine learning. On one hand there's a lot of algorithm development that doesn't use machine learning at all. On the other hand, it's expected for algorithm engineers to know it, so....
So I may as well learn
sturdy nest
ok
mortal wedge
How about you? What's your current role?
sturdy nest
currently doing data science but kind of wanting to switch to data engineering
mortal wedge
What are the differences between the two? I'm not too familiar
crude crown
@mortal wedge See what I was talking about everyone lumping algorithmic work with machine learning nowadays? 😂
mortal wedge
Yup...
Well, I have a textbook, gonna go through in my free time
You don't even have enough data to do machine learning on small data sets
crude crown
just read about your current gig, in some ways you have my dream gig to be honest
working on things that are ACTUALLY useful
mortal wedge
Yeah, I agree
crude crown
I'm working on a SaaS company that develops SW for cloud call centers
In particular, I'm working on several topics related to speech processing
making use of DSP and ML
but the use case is, no matter how it's dressed/sold, surveillance of call center workers
in order to manage their performance
(as if they weren't already micro-managed to hell as it is)
Moving on to the topic of working with a quite small amount of data for ML purposes technically you could still do some ML things with it (that's an interesting research field by the way)
but it involves using a lot of data resampling approaches, like bootstrapping.
mortal wedge
and yeah, I worked in a call center for a bit and it was hell
As far as ML on small data sets, I'm thinking of validation studies. There just isn't enough data there to apply it
crude crown
for you use case (considering you're working in the biomedical domain) I would for sure start looking into random forests.
mortal wedge
Okay, I'll check it out
crude crown
they're decent for interpretability and they happen to also work decently when you don't have a "big" amount of data
blissful shore
atomic jacinth
So I'm an aspiring programmer. I'm currently 13 years old and was wondering what an employer would like to see on a resume, just so I can work towards it at a young age and get more into the actual skills required for a job. (software engineering, or possibly something data related)
lapis swallow
They would most likely want to see previous projects you have made, experience you have whether volunteer or employment, specialization (What things you are really good at), etc.
frosty cove
Internships look good on a resume. You could work towards that
mortal wedge
Early on, internships, work hard in your programming related classes/try to take programming related classes
tight zenith
Personal projects that show the ability to self learn look good in most fields. It helped me get my job as an Electrical Engineer
mortal wedge
and yeah, personal projects as well
hushed laurel
@atomic jacinth I recommend looking at what companies are looking to hire developers to create. Don't stress yourself out, and remember to have fun!
You got this
red remnant
ima be a engineer
distant crow
go you
little trellis
@sturdy nest I’m a data engineer now and all is good. I’m curious as to what drives you to consider making the switch?
narrow urchin
vapid jay
do you think that graduating from IIT helps in getting a job outside india?
that would depend on the company/organization and the country
i didn't mean something like that
what i meant was that Indian Institute of technology is considered to be the best in india
true harness
it definitely can't hurt
vapid jay
and in order to get in you have to clear the world's toughest engineering entrance exam
one million people appear for that exam every year
and only 15000 are selected
the students get the highest packages from MNCs around the world
solid pilot
guys I know this is a very specific question about "visas"
vapid jay
i wanted to know if people from outside india think if it's worth the hype
solid pilot
but is it possible to get a eb-3 greencard working under stem?
or h1b is the only way to go?
vast shoal
@vapid jay It's possible that people outside of India simply aren't aware of the school's reputation, in which case it might not stand out as a credential.
I hadn't heard of it before you mentioned it, for example.
true harness
huh, it's known pretty well in the fields it's good at, namely math and engineering
solid pilot
@vapid jay you want an advice ?
If you want to leave India try to find a multinational company and start working for them.
then you can leave India fairly easily
or if you have a little bit of money in your bank account, try to make a post graduation in the U.S or any first world country, by doing that your resume will attract a lot of good attention from companies.
vast shoal
@true harness I'm sure I'm not an edge case, and I could've been the person responsible for the decision of hiring @vapid jay. If that had been the case, going to that school would not have made them stand out.
silent haven
analog hill
So I'm an aspiring programmer. I'm currently 13 years old and was wondering what an employer would like to see on a resume, just so I can work towards it at a young age and get more into the actual skills required for a job. (software engineering, or possibly something data related)
@atomic jacinth same
vast shoal
Just aim for making a lot of games, and get involved in online communities for game development. You'll learn a lot of what you might need to get hired along the way. Probably aim for studying CS, SE, etc. and try to specialize in graphics and multimedia and such.
Make an online portfolio of the games you make.
Try to get others to play them.
analog meteor
wait is it possible to get a job as a programmer if I am under 18 or will that depend on where I live?
mortal wedge
Depends on where you live
But probably not
If you're under 18 I'd just work on building cool things and creating a portfolio to showcase them
distant crow
@vapid jay I can tell you that in the UK and the US, few are aware of IIT
gilded valley
A lot of corps are aware of iit. I know the Corp I did an internship at last year liked iit grads
Us Corp in the uk
viscid remnant
i am in usa right now and i think it is worth the ype
hype
i regret not going to a top school. I went to a regular public school, not knowing much about different career pathways and if i can do it all over I would go to a top Ivy League school and I would do CS
another view i wanted to give out is that in usa schools and education are not valued as much as they are in india and people can typically learn these skills on thier own and get hired eventually, but i would only suggset a top ivy league school like IIT because your life will be set, they help you get job and thats what you need
youll have a good deggree and a good job and a very good reputation
i regret every day not going to a top school
mortal wedge
If you can go to a top school, do it. Even if someone hasn't heard of it (which they really should have) you still get a top education and that's useful in and of itself.
gilded valley
Top school in no way equates to top education. Generally top schools are top because of their research, not the quality of their bachelors programs
mortal wedge
It doesn't necessarily, but I think there's a basic correlation. At least, an expected correlation.
mortal wedge
Tragic
stone oracle
vapid ibex
no age just go for it @stone oracle ....
swift pine
I just started learning at 19 and it's not very hard to get into
orchid junco
Top schools are actually easier because their teachers tend to explain things better. Comparatively, some teachers with poor teaching from average schools expect a lot from their students
shadow moss
In US for foreigner, being able to get visa is going to matter a ton more then schools
You could graduate from Indian version of MIT and it won’t matter in US if you can’t get a visa.
And US doesn’t grant visas preference based on foreign school choice
And if Trump wins, I expect h-1B hold to continue
gilded valley
Top schools are actually easier because their teachers tend to explain things better. Comparatively, some teachers with poor teaching from average schools expect a lot from their students
@orchid junco
That is astoundingly not true. I've heard many stories of profs at to unis not caring about lecturing, to the point where it almost seems the norm
shadow moss
Depends if they are there to teach or do research
gilded valley
Most profs at top unis only care about research. Because to unis are usually top for their research
mortal wedge
Never too late to start learning python 🙂
crude crown
indeed
I've had a previous job where I was working with a Python Developer who was a teacher and started getting into programming during his degree and started his dev career in his 30s
still the most disciplined developer I've ever found yet.
unkempt cloud
If a prompt asked you "What do you consider yourself knowledgeable in?" and you were really good with computers (a 'power user' of sorts), what would you call that? Is there a word or phrase that describes that kind of general, somewhat vague proficiency? I need to explain that in a resume or application essay sort of way.
distant crow
maybe computer administration
IT Admin?
dunno if that's valued for programming jobs, you kind of expect every programmer to be decent at that
it's like putting MS Office on your resume for a programming job
modern junco
unkempt cloud
Wrong channel?
Sounds pretty lame to want to put it on a resume (and I'm not), but it's close enough that I thought it'd be good to ask here.
distant crow
sure, put computer admin on your resume
shouldn't really hurt, at worst it gets a shrug
unkempt cloud
Just have a prompt asking me what I'm knowledgeable at and... I am a power user, plain and simple I configure, know about and optimize my workflow when it comes to computers, moreso than most people will or should. But there's no way to communicate "I use the computer better than you do" without sounding like a out of touch nerd lol.
sweet shore
Also, when applying for a programming job, "I use the computer better than you do" is more than likely false lol. I would throw that resume in the trash.
unkempt cloud
Not that I would put that on a resume.
sweet shore
Main problem I would have with anything "admin" on a resume though is that I'm going to assume you, at some level, know sysad stuff (in this context). So if I ask you what is your favorite way to keep a pile of windows 10 pro pcs up to date, you ought to have a business level answer that isn't "windows update" lol
unkempt cloud
Yep. And I don't do sysadmin, so to the actual informed population that knows the difference, I would be lying to them.
sweet shore
If your strength is setting up your own personal workflow, that to me sounds like "organizational skills"™
Which may prompt a question on your workflow so that you can shine. But that is also pretty generic
distant crow
sysadmin is specialized to usually managed computers and a network and domain. But computer admin is vague
you administrate computers. your computers, other people's computers. I think that fits
sweet shore
Sure, but when the sysad questions come up, and you fire back with that, I imagine more than a few hiring managers are going to think you lied on your resume, even if that isn't technically true
sleek adder
Hi is Physics important for software engineer?
mortal wedge
Depends on your field, probably. It may not be, but I think math and physics knowledge are generally assumed.
At least with math
sleek adder
i am taking a math class that consists of
functions,graphs,trigonometric functions,counting and probability for semester one
then sem 2 is calculus and algebra shit
is that good enough?
mortal wedge
For most people probably, tbh
mortal wedge
Software engineers range from people with only boolean logic knowledge to people with linear algebra
sleek adder
or should i remove the thought and go with business studies?
unique dawn
Do whatever u wanna do in life bro
Dont let anyone else decide for you
Do what fees right
summer roost
I'm trash at linear algebra and haven't used calculus in years. Plenty of software engineering doesn't need much math.
Stats is probably the highest level math I ever make use of... And I have to look things up every time.
And I've never needed even a tiny bit of physics.
@sleek adder ^ you should hear that.
true harness
of course, if you're going to write code to interpret data from a satellite or something, you probably need physics
sleek adder
Im planning on graphic software engineer, i was told physics is needed like shit
summer roost
For graphics, yes.
summer roost
Yes. Graphics requires much more math than most programming
neon mortar
I need help, I can't understand OOP (c++)
summer roost
But if it turns out you don't like math but do like programming, there's tons of jobs that require much less math.
@neon mortar try an off topic channel if you want C++ help
neon mortar
thanks
still condor
@neon mortar Or maybe ask in a C++ server, like Together C & C++
pallid pike
Are there projects or things in engineering that would need the use of python?
vapid jay
What do you mean
pallid pike
like can python be used in some aspects of engineering
vapid jay
Depends on the type of engineering
pallid pike
Industrial engineering
sand veldt
🤔 Should be doable, but won't they be more interested in a strongly typed language?
pallid pike
like what?
vapid jay
Pretty sure C/C++ is a common thing for such industries
pallid pike
so should I jump to learning C or master python first?
vast shoal
@pallid pike Python is a good, approachable language to learn the basic concepts of programming. Picking up C will be easier if you're already somewhat comfortable with Python. It can probably be beneficial to know both, in any case. So I'd suggest sticking with Python until you feel like you've got the fundamentals down.
vast shoal
@vapid jay You still can't solicit help on this server, dude.
I told you to look in the topic for job board suggestions.
Not to post here asking.
distant crow
Hi is Physics important for software engineer?
yes, without physics your hand would go straight through the keyboard
but also, no, not important unless you are a software engineer working in a field that deals with those topics
Are there projects or things in engineering that would need the use of python?
depends on your definition of "engineering". I've held a few different roles from automotive to robotics, and can give you some insight there:
In Automotive: hardly any. Oddly a lot of MATLAB is used in systems simulation thanks to Simulink. There's even tools to compile Simulink for ECUs. Everything else tends to be domain-specific tools and languages. Rarely is python used, though sometimes useful for some simple data analysis.
In Robotics: yes. a lot. ROS and rospy, are major stacks used in robotics, and these are extensively python. When you deal with higher-level robotics systems (as opposed to low-level control), python works quite well. Furthermore, especially when your robots use AI, python is particularly important.
mortal wedge
yes, without physics your hand would go straight through the keyboard
@distant crow Made my morning, thanks 🙂
viscid remnant
guys
whats the best source to start leaerning programming from for someone with no background
white karma
!resources
inner wrenBOT
steep geyser
I've recently graduated from civil eng and after working for a year have determined that most of the work is not exciting. I'm currently enrolled in MITx intro to python and now ranked at kyu 6 on codewars. Typically, at what point will employers begin to consider someone who is self taught?
mortal wedge
When you have an interview and you're able to back up your skills
alpine vector
anyone know what i should start off doing if i want to become a freelancer for wordpress on upwork?
like what should i start off learning, I'm already moderately acquainted with Python, HTML, CSS, and I know a very small amount of PHP.
mortal wedge
You're lucky that you already have a degree in eng, employers will assume eng will have some software background
regardless as to whether or not that's true
gilded valley
It depends on the kind of roles you're applying for. Some megacorps are explicitly looking to hire non-tech students into tech roles. JPMorgan and IBM are two examples I know of. Beyond that, some will be happy to pick you up if you have a basic competence (roughly where you are now) and expect you to learn on the job, American Express is an example like that. Honestly, if I were you, I'd start hunting around for different programs and whatnot now to see what is actually expected.
The UK has a lot more explicit grad schemes than the US does, but there will still be opportunities open to you
steep geyser
Sorry I guess my question should be at what point would I be considered for an interview?
mortal wedge
Depends on your resume skills
steep geyser
Relevant experience would be everything I've listed so:
eng background
kyu6 on codewars for python
mortal wedge
The eng background would probably carry you for entry level
viral bluff
mortal wedge
That looks fun
wispy cape
that doesn't sound related to career @viral bluff
mortal wedge
Yeah it's not and that's actually way easier than I thought it was so I take it back that it's fun
but still slightly interesting. Take it to general, or compsci, or offtopic
steep geyser
Are there any resources or websites other than like indeed to find positions, specifically in Canada
gilded valley
Probably - when did you graduate?
mortal wedge
Hit up your college for resources, they might even still have career fairs and such that alumni can attend. As far as job boards go/career sites, I used linkedin and indeed both pretty heavily
steep geyser
2019
gilded valley
Yeah, if you graduated recently, your university careers service probably have resources to help you
so speak to them
steep geyser
honestly my school lacks in student support
Also do employers recognize codewars rankings as proficiency in a language and if so, what rank is considered respectable?
tight zenith
Relevant experience would be everything I've listed so:
eng background
kyu6 on codewars for python
@steep geyser I would say build more on what you are saying about coding skills list projects that you have done that give a practical demonstration of what you can do
something like I made program A that does x,y, and z
mortal wedge
@steep geyser Employers won't care about your rank on codewars unless you're placing in competitive tournaments. Make a personal project or two and have a portfolio to display them
steep geyser
I've heard lots about personal projects but have no clue what to even write
Would something like sending a notification if a price drops below $x be an example?
tight zenith
Yea that would be an idea
Just think of things that you think sound interesting or fun
Or something that you can use yourself to make something you do easier
steep geyser
and in terms of positions, what titles I should be looking for?
steep geyser
I really just started this whole process about a month ago so I am not familiar with what the options are
tight zenith
I’d recommend googling about programming jobs to get ideas of what is out there and which areas seem interesting to you then
steep geyser
To my knowledge the "hierarchy" is Eng -> dev -> computer programmer
tight zenith
Well honestly I’m an electrical engineer but a big part of what I do is writing software to give a user interface for other people to remotely access and control different pieces of equipment
steep geyser
Nice I had a buddy in electrical and it seems to have the thickest weeds to get through lol
tight zenith
I mean i think alot of places(at least at the company where i work) what at least some kind of STEM degree
from there its about what skills you have on your resume and evidence to support them (projects/certificates)
so this link gives 6 types of "Programming jobs" and some descriptions about them
steep geyser
I think a career as a developer or engineer would be interesting
prisma wagon
You just need to get your foot in the door.
steep geyser
What position and skills would allow for that?
prisma wagon
Literally any position requiring development.
Front-end, back-end, full-stack web development.
Game development.
Machine Learning.
Data Science.
Tons of different things.
That's why they were saying just make some projects. Get a portfolio built and up.
tight zenith
@steep geyser look up job postings for those kinds of positions and see what required/desired skills they list and start there
mortal wedge
I don't know if it's your thing, but having a web app or a mobile app is seen as really impressive even if it doesn't do much
prisma wagon
Having a fully fledged web application with user login, registration will really put you ahead of others.
shadow moss
Maybe
prisma wagon
If you can integrate a SPA (single-page-application) with a Python backend. You're doing good.
mortal wedge
It's the ability to show that you have familiarity with the whole process from idea to finished product that's impressive. It means that even if they give you one fixed role, you'll be comfortable working with other people/teams since you have knowledge about their stuff, too.
steep geyser
This is great advice!
I have no clue to to create a web application like this but it gives me a baseline goal
prisma wagon
I would take a look at starting off with Flask. The only reason I recommend this is so you can get a feel for how you could build out an application from scratch.
Then I would move to Django.
meager jolt
Why starting with flask instead of django?
Since I started with a bit of django for the code jam already, I'm wondering if that changes the advice
steep geyser
Should I become proficient in python first?
viral ridge
im kinda displeased my new role is "software dev" and not sftw engineer lol
shadow moss
@meager jolt depends on your approach to WebDev
also, neither Django or Flask are current web application hotness, SPA is web application hotness so Javascript paired with some backend
steep geyser
@viral ridge how come you are displeased with your new role as software dev?
prisma wagon
also, neither Django or Flask are current web application hotness, SPA is web application hotness so Javascript paired with some backend
@shadow moss You could still run a SPA with a backend in Python.
gilded valley
The only framework that is actually good for SPA backends is FastAPI
Django comes with lots of bloat that makes devops unhappy
Flask is just sort of a slower version of FastAPI
prisma wagon
Why starting with flask instead of django?
Since I started with a bit of django for the code jam already, I'm wondering if that changes the advice
@meager jolt No. I would stick with Django then. It's just useful to know how it works is all.
I disagree. I am running Django for a backend perfectly fine for multiple applications.
gilded valley
well - this isn't really about agreement. I know for a fact that the bloat that comes with Django makes lots of devops/SRE people unhappy with it being used as a backend for SPA
prisma wagon
Most web "frameworks" that provide MVC functionality would fall under that statement then.
Of being "bloated".
There is really a time and a place for each.
gilded valley
I don't particularly want to have the discussion. I'm literally just quoting people who have been active in this channel and work as devops engineers
shadow moss
Backend with SPA is all REST API calls, Django is fat and unwanted when doing straight REST API
Flask is meh and FAST API is good but there are other frameworks as well I’m sure
prisma wagon
Right..
gilded valley
Django/Flask were the only major frameworks for a long time. There are some weird secondary ones like Bottle, but I'm not aware of any actual advantages to them
FastAPI/Starlette is the new hotness
and AIOHTTP I guess
prisma wagon
Anyways, using Django can help someone build a website fast. In this case for a portfolio. Creating something from start to finish will be easier.
gilded valley
True. This was very much a tangent. A Django project is a good portfolio piece - especially if it's something interesting or unique seeming
meager jolt
ok thanks, that was helpful
i can (eventually) try both approaches, anyway
gilded valley
If you wanted a modern full stack project in your portfolio, something like a FastAPI+GraphQL backend and Vue.js frontend would probably be the direction you'd want to head in
shadow moss
Django isn’t bad but it’s not hot either
prisma wagon
It may not be but most jobs I have seen lately still use Django.
Even if it's not hot that's where the work is.
shadow moss
When my ancient fintech company hired a bunch of Angular developers , you knew MVC has jumped the shark
Sure tech never dies
If your goal is to be employed, I mean Java
prisma wagon
If you wanted a modern full stack project in your portfolio, something like a FastAPI+GraphQL backend and Vue.js frontend would probably be the direction you'd want to head in
@gilded valley
I agree with that if you'd want the experience. VueJS or React are both great to start with.
For work you'll probably find more React there again.
gilded valley
Yeah, React has more work in it from what I see, but vue is the new JS framework on the very crowded block
shadow moss
But companies are more willing to take a chance with someone who knows a JS/TS framework then hope a Python developer can transition
steep geyser
This is all great information
meager jolt
yes, thanks
shadow moss
Sure I’m just saying my old stodgy company is heading toward SPA. We have a metric ton of SpringBoot sites to get rid of so that skill will still be needed.
vapid jay
Yea exactly lol
mortal wedge
@viral ridge On the bright side, when you're applying for your next job you can put whatever you want on your job title
void hedge
blazing dew
!resources @void hedge
inner wrenBOT
blazing dew
Also, this isn't the channel to discuss this. Please read channel descriptions before posting in them.
I'd recommend #python-discussion if you have any questions, and #❓｜how-to-get-help if you need help with specific problems.
covert mountain
How hard it is to find a freelancing project related to python?
blazing dew
@covert mountain Not that this answers your question (I have no experience in this field), but if you're looking for Python jobs I recommend looking in the pins of this channel.
covert mountain
Ah well let me ask you a question then. I am in quite dilemma whether I should become a python developer considering I have a strong mathematics background. Regarding that, what are the libraries that are most in demand?
Sorry, the question is pretty vague, but I am desperate to get a well paying job.
blazing dew
Well since you're doing math I'd highly recommend numpy and pandas as they're both very strong in data manipulation: https://www.scipy.org/. In graphing data, I'd go for matplotlib (as a utility, I don't know what fields actually recquire this) (on the same website as before). Tensorflow is great for machine learning in general: main website: https://www.tensorflow.org/, python package: https://www.tensorflow.org/install/. I'm no where qualified to give you a complete answer, but I do in fact think that anything on scipy.org (the first website) is worth learning.
covert mountain
Well, thank you. I already completed data science camp in datacamp. Well, I am considering ML but isn't that sector already swarming with people?
blazing dew
I'm not completely sure, actually.
@mortal wedge You actually have experience in the work field, do you think you can answer this person's questions?
I really hope you do have experience in the work field, I swear I saw you mention something about it at some point, sorry to put a spotlight on you.
mortal wedge
I've heard a few times that ML is "swarming with people" but I just don't see the data to back it up. I still see ML jobs around, I interviewed for a major company the other day that's trying to expand pretty hard, and my boss is also pushing me to pick up some on the side.
So I say go for it if it interests you 🙂
blazing dew
Would you mind confirming/denying if the information that I gave is valid?
covert mountain
@mortal wedge What about 3rd world countries? Can I like do something to earn some good cash and then prepare myself for big companies?
vapid jay
Just mass apply for 20-50jobs
normal forge
Matplotlib is relevant to learn regardless in order to visualize data
vapid jay
I’m pretty sure at least one of them will ask you for interview
If you passed, you are in
Else it’s not a big deal
I’ve seen people do that
mortal wedge
Xith's advice is pretty on point. The only thing I might recommend/change is to learn sci-kit learn first, it's a bit easier of a library while tensorflow is more towards nueral networks
@covert mountain I don't have a lot of knowledge regarding 3rd world countries, but I see no reason why you can't start your career and then eventually move to a larger company
blazing dew
I'm thinking about getting into some ML even though my calculus knowledge is like midway through the journey before I enter linear algebra. Should I continue learning Calculus or would it be a good idea to start now (while continuing to learn calculus)? I'd like to get started at the proper time so I am able to understand at least a large chunk of what's going on and have a solid understanding of it before entering a career in probably computer science. I've already passed through the start of integral calculus and I am now in early stages of integrals along with sequences/series (mostly memorization of formulas, less conceptual).
normal forge
Unless you're using it in preprocessing, most of the calc that's used is fairly basic
blazing dew
I'm also guessing that linear algebra is used a lot?
normal forge
That's the basic premise behind it ya
normal forge
it's used when dealing with the internal functions of the network, but I've seen it being used/used it during preprocessing + basic knowledge of matrices is required to use data
blazing dew
It's a good thing I know a good chunk of numpy.
mortal wedge
There's also a lot of statistics
covert mountain
Deep learning or machine learning: supervised and unsupervised?
mortal wedge
Also, https://www.amazon.com/Hands-Machine-Learning-Scikit-Learn-TensorFlow/dp/1492032646/ was recommended to me by more than a few people
From what I've readit's pretty legit
mortal wedge
From what I understand though, the python machine learning libraries are pretty user-friendly
blazing dew
I'm looking through tensorflow beginner docs rn
and you're right
it may not be to other people, but it definitely looks friendly to me
oh boy I can buy the collectible for only $199.99
normal forge
do it 😛
just want to clarify something, i didn't realize optimization was calc but it's more or less it's own topic to know + calc
mortal wedge
lol wtf, didn't even notice the collectible
blazing dew
Optimization is kinda fun tbh, getting to know what functions are faster than others, and for what reason.
normal forge
it really is, the first thing I ever saw on the topic was 3b1b's videos and I'd still argue it's more or less topology
blazing dew
3b1b is the guy I go to when I don't do well on a math test and want to enjoy math again.
It's hard to enjoy math when it's getting shoved down your throat in classes
covert mountain
Well, I do khan academy a lot when I forget basic things.
blazing dew
I wonder how hard it would be to self-teach myself math
oh yeah I use khan academy as well
both great resources
normal forge
I actually learnt what I know in linear alg from his videos
blazing dew
even the engine for plotting that 3b1b uses is written in python
covert mountain
Also, I think you guys might wanna check the channel Faculty of Khan it has pretty high level math stuffs.
normal forge
what's the engine?
obtuse thorn
I wonder how hard it would be to self-teach myself math
Just lots of booksformal education is a joke
covert mountain
!resources
inner wrenBOT
blazing dew
Are there any calculus books that you could recommend?
obtuse thorn
I forget the one I used, it was specifically business calc. It was ok.
neat mica
school
covert mountain
hardcore maths?
blazing dew
@neat mica I'm not sure what you mean.
neat mica
sorry I'm being stupid lol
blazing dew
It do be like that sometimes.
neat mica
the best way would be tutoring but if you don't wanna pay for that then find a well rated calculus book
obtuse thorn
My calc book is proprietary to my university :,(
blazing dew
Hmm, now that I think of it, I feel like we're going offtopic from careers, just a bit. I'm going to go suggest an #education channel for discussion of paths for learning topics related to careers in programming and see how that goes.
neat mica
I have no idea what I wanna pursue as far as computer science goes
I've been trying a lot of things
but I'm not really interested enough to completely pursue anything atm
I've only been messing with small projects
obtuse thorn
Community College is also perfectly fine for teaching.
I dont want to be too cynical towards higher education, but I feel that community College is often just as credible as a university, often more so.
blazing dew
I'm going to be transfering into a 4-year college after community college. I'm glad that this system is around, because I got to test if I actually wanted to dive into the world of programming.
normal forge
I've only been messing with small projects
Ya I've got an issue with doing that
blazing dew
And apparently I love it, so here we are.
neat mica
I've been trying web dev a little but learning HTML and CSS is equal to the death sentence
so I don't know
blazing dew
hmmm this is getting a bit too offtopic, would yall mind if we migrated to #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare?
obtuse thorn
That is awesome. Personally I feel that I did not get much, if anything out of a 4 year university. Everything I know is self taught (I did not study cs, but everything I know relating to my field was not learned from university either)
Haha, true
blazing dew
Sick.
lyric barn
Is it usual that nearly every programming course in cs masters is based on java? Is it bad or good?
white karma
A lot of systems still use it
digital fjord
it is fine, it can teach programming fine, though some of the OOP of java is generally not used these days.
viral ridge
@lyric barn yes pretty much all we learned was java. didnt please me at least
even GWT was taught lol....
lyric barn
is it bad if someone wants to work in another field than java after?
or should I just see it as a foundation of programming and work on other languages by myself?
coral tundra
@lyric barn there's absolutely no problem with going on to learn and use other languages. Java is a good tool for teaching lots of general concepts, and it's widely used in industry so it's a good language to know. I found that my university only 'taught' Java, but then offered other modules where it was expected that you'd pick up a more appropriate language (Python, C, Haskell, JavaScript, a few others). Java is a good foundation for a lot of people. I don't use Java anymore, primarily just Python and JavaScript.
lyric barn
@coral tundra unfortunately there are only like 1 or 2 courses which use other languages (f.e. scientific programming with python)
but it's alright if you say they use java to teach general concepts
coral tundra
For my course they didn't tend to mention the other languages as they weren't teaching them, it was often more of a first lecture of "oh by the way, you'll need to use XYZ". But even on courses where java is the primary teaching language, a lot of people go on to learn other languages
Sometimes just for fun, or for dissertation projects, or internships etc
lyric barn
at my university they specifiy requirements before the course starts like "basic knowledge of python" etc
in some courses you can choose the language you want to use
but when it comes to the job market, personal projects and skills will matter more than specific uni courses right?
viral ridge
yes
calm idol
I`m currently learning Python language but I know to use only few of the modules/extensions that come with Python such as: math module, pygame, tkinter... How can I learn them?
normal forge
Not really a careers topic but the best way to learn them is by using them
calm idol
ok, thx
lavish monolith
Is it okay if I can ask for a CV review here? If so, what channel should I use?
white karma
Sure go ahead
inner wrenBOT
Hey @lavish monolith!
lavish monolith
Hello. I am about to graduate with a Master's in Automation. I have done a lot of projects related to programming. I was hoping to get some feedback on my CV. I am uploading it here so that anyone can have a look at it.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IG-cvzVwVThcCzQ5t89f4hB1mBN0j0xZ/view?usp=sharing
summer roost
@lavish monolith is English really the only language you speak? I'd think that's strange for someone living in Italy. Even if you do only speak English, I wouldn't list it 4 times like that - maybe 2 at most, splitting it into English (Spoken) vs English (Written).
pulsar drum
@fickle ermine Most, if not all channels are open to beginners. If you need help you can claim a channel, regardless of your Python skill or the difficulty of the problem #❓｜how-to-get-help
empty seal
Is Help Desk usually just answering calls back to back constantly?
white karma
Usually.
mortal wedge
Yeah, sadly
topaz tartan
@lavish monolith nice structure and design, did you use a theme or created it yourself?
lavish monolith
I designed it using a website
runic goblet
frosty cove
1 page def for a new grad IMO
gilded valley
It should only be 1 page
distant crow
as someone who reads CVs, I actually don't care if it's 2 pages. just make it readable, and sensibly laid out. I have a scroll wheel and know how to use it
if you can fit it on 1 page, great, and trying to do so might make you re-think what's essential on your CV and what's not. But don't do things like make the font size tiny, or cram stuff together. If you do have a enough stuff to go over 2 pages, just do 2 pages, not the end of the world. Gone are the days when CVs would be actually printed out
buuut, other recruiters might feel differently, I dunno
gilded valley
You might not care, but some people do. I've seen multiple people from mega corps say 2 pages is too long. So it seems like a risk not worth taking
No one is going to hate a well made 1 page cv. Some people might hate a well made 2 page cv
prisma wagon
I have to agree with Charlie. Most of the time your resume should be one page.
fickle ermine
is it ok to ping mods if you really need them
digital fjord
pinging mods is fine if moderation is required, if you need to speak about something else, use modmail
smoky bane
craggy wave
Hello, this is a channel to talk about Python and the world of work.
abstract zodiac
Hello
shadow moss
I read resumes as well, 1 page for junior people, 2 pages for senior people is generally rule I give
BUT 2 pages might be ok for Jr person with a ton of stuff, but make sure most valuable information is on first page. Remember, each job (esp these days) gets like 2000 resumes, by the time it reaches me, it's gone through a computer, 1-2 recruiters then me
at any point, someone may look at longer resume and go "No one has time for this shit" and move on
This is very American POV, other countries may work better.
topaz tartan
@lavish monolith can you link me to it pls
sweet shore
My resume is like, 6 pages at last check, but the most relevant info is front and center with supporting information on additional pages. It's worked for me, but I've been at a senior level for a while now.
shadow moss
j4ng5y, American?
cedar trout
What should I put on my resume, if I have 0 professional experience?
true harness
your education
cedar trout
Okay, but it is rather short
I mean, I would fit at half of page for sure, it looks terrible, what should another half of page include?
gilded valley
How old are you?
cedar trout
20
I have been working at other companies (hospital for example)
Should I include it in my resume for data annotation job?
gilded valley
What kind of jobs are you applying for?
I have been working at other companies (hospital for example)
Should I include it in my resume for data annotation job?
@cedar trout
Yes
cedar trout
And what about the things that I have really little experience? (Not related to job I want to get )
For example: I have created one game in Unity, it's not even completed, should I mention it?
gilded valley
If you're applying for junior dev positions, you're probably not gonna have great luck
cedar trout
why do you think so?
fickle ermine
Is there an age limit for this server?
true harness
discord's tos (you have to be 13 or above i think)
vapid jay
I am looking for a web development job, part time the very least. I want to expand my knowledge but also earn some money to get to my goals. Can anyone help steer me in the right direction?
gilded valley
why do you think so?
@cedar trout
You don't have a degree or experience. Very little reason for an employer to take a chance on you
cedar trout
I am applying for data annotation job, it seems rather easy (you got to verify the objects labelled by ML model). I apply there, because it has also junior data scientist job, where I am willing to apply in half of year or something
just want to create good resume, cause I dont want to create another one later
mortal wedge
You'll always be updating your resume
I should probably update mine, it caused some issues at the last place I applied to
Well, to be fair, they got back to me like 5 months later
distant crow
with data annotation job, it's pretty easy skill requirements, but you should still put your work experience on it so that they're more confident that you can actually hold down a job
even if two candidates meet the basic requirements (tbh for annotation, that's "be able to use a computer", and "have attention to detail", and "ok with doing repetitive tasks"), I'd still prefer the one who's got actual work experience, and not the one who's resume reads like they've been out of work for the last 2 years
seeing gaps in resumes makes me ask questions like "why is there a gap?" and sometimes "can this person not hold down a job?" there may or may not be a valid and entirely reasonable explanation, but sometimes if there's also another candidate where I don't have to go find out this information or where it's easily verifiable, maybe I just go with that candidate and save me the headache so I can move onto doing the billion other things that I have to do today
another point of reference is that in the past, I've hired someone who had move jobs several times a year, and then gone onto freelance work. I didn't think much about it at the time, but when we hired them, we found out exactly why their work history was the way it was. Suffice to say, it was not a good experience for the team, and they were let go soon afterwards
that's not to say that every person with a work history like that would turn out that way, but I'm cautious about it because of that and similar experiences
ionic flume
Anyone here who is based in Toronto GTA?
sweet shore
@shadow moss super late reply lol, but yes, I'm American
woeful spruce
I used to live in the GTA...what a hassle that was for 30 years
proud shadow
Do you think python programmer a good job?
next crown
@proud shadow yeah it is but it's extremely competitive due to the syntax being so easy, not to mention its being taught in schools so to be paid well you'll have to stand out, but other than that it's good.
summer roost
Most programmers need to know multiple languages. "Python programmer" is probably not a job in and of itself.
You can definitely get a job knowing Python + HTML + JavaScript, but probably not just knowing Python - except perhaps in the data science field, but in that case expect to need to know a ton of math and statistical analysis
That's a broad generalization, of course - I'm sure there are some jobs that require only Python and no other programming languages or domain expertise, but they're definitely not the majority.
That said, some companies will hire someone who knows only one of the languages that will be needed for the job, with the intention of teaching the other languages on the job.
proud shadow
Thanks @next crown and @summer roost, your advice helped a lot.
vapid jay
Job is never based on the language, it’s based on the field, and the field has its own requirement.
Like web dev, it requires its own stuff
distant crow
it's possible to "only know" python in some data science fields, and some backend development fields. at least at the junior levels. That's not to say that having exposure to more languages appropriate to your field wouldn't make you a better programmer or better candidate of course
and I put "only know" in quotes because exposure and use of other languages is entirely unavoidable - dockerfiles, bash scripts, and various manifests or declarative scripts for things like CI/CD pipelines written in YAML, JSON/Groovy
I can give you some examples. At my current work, the team responsible for data science are almost entirely Python. Some only know python, though they have a strong mathematics/statistics background.
Some members of the team responsible for backend development are also python only, however, that being said, most of the team members have experience with other languages, as one would expect for developers who've worked for a while. Knowing other languages improves your coding and gives you more options in your career and technical work. However, backend developers have to deal with the scripts needed by docker, kubernetes, Jenkins, and all that, and those are mini languages in themselves, though not traditional "programming languages"
In my previous work in robotics, we again had a split between infrastructure people who were basically python backends, who maintained the robotics stack, which was in rospy. This is a python-only stack. Very rarely some C++ was involved, so some people had a bit of embedded experience enough to deal with a bit of that. Actually in that company, it was the hardware team who were more likely to deal with embedded code, which is an interesting situation where your hardware team is better at C/C++ than the python/infrastructure guys
The other group in that company were robotics/AI research engineers, who do the computer vision (python), machine learning (python), and robot dynamics (also python).
In my work before that, again we had a split between infrastructure people and research people. And again, both groups were python-only, or predominantly python.
so there we go, 6 teams, 3 companies. Python only, or predominantly python
what's interesting is that all 3 companies had web frontend roles as well. Those teams dealt with all the javascript/HTML. Even for the robotics - we had a web-stack control UI for the human operator, mainly for debugging, but also for some basic start/stop/state control. It was written in Vue.js, and talked with the python-based robot stack over websocket
Based on this (but perhaps my view of the industry is biased), knowing only Python is ok. Albeit, I do agree you should branch out once you have a few years of python experience in you
vapid jay
which niche within python can lead to freelance opportunities?
dry sapphire
which niche within python can lead to freelance opportunities?
@vapid jay personally I had a fair bit of success with AI-related stuff
vapid jay
any popular libraries?
craggy elm
rospy has tools to handle more of the higher level robotics stuff? i took a robotics class in college, and we had to do everything by hand in matlab lol
distant crow
for sure, there's a big ecosystem of rospy stuff, moveit! is a big one for path planning for example
some robot manufacturers offer rospy packages for control too
craggy elm
i'll have to check it out once i grab a condo and move out of where im at lol i have 0 space for anything requiring hardware
distant crow
heh I can relate. But I at least have this cheap RC servo arm on my desk
craggy elm
i've alwayd wanted to do that stuff though
distant crow
playing a bit with ROS2 on the side, even though I don't work in robotics any more
it's an interesting thing to do, certainly different from all the web dev and data science you see everywhere. smaller industry though, fewer companies hiring
craggy elm
that's exactly why i never pursued it lol i figured i could always dick around with it in my free time once i got a stable job
distant crow
works very well with computer vision and deep learning though, so a lot of overlap with that too, and that's why Python is a good language for robotics
craggy elm
well, it's something that gives me another reason to buy a linux laptop lmao
distant crow
oh yeah, for sure. I run a windows desktop, and have to have ros running in a VM and on a smaller machine because I don't want to have to deal with ros on windows weirdness
craggy elm
i just use WSL2 for any linux stuff, but it would be so much easier to just have a dedicated machine for that stuff
distant crow
yes me too, however, need to use rviz which is a GUI
gotta visualize those octomaps
craggy elm
even with cmake, git on windows can be a bit funky
distant crow
also, need USB support
so I have a small Atom machine doing low-level control, running a few ROS nodes for controlling servos and publishing joint states; and my VM on desktop running rviz. I think I can probably get the path planner and other high-level control running out of a docker container, if I can figure out the networking. So I'd have basically have a distributed robot stack across three "machines"
and that sort of highlights how similar robot infrastructure is these days to python backend jobs - docker, networking, CI/CD, all that stuff overlaps
i fact, I got employed at my last job because of experience with python backend, plus some prior embedded systems experience (ROS1 stack, dockerized, Jenkins for CD, all python; Vue.js for control interfaces). It's interesting that that career transition is possible into and out of robotics for python devs
verbal depot
Anyone feeling intense difficulty concentrating on work with WFH? It's been something I've been struggling with for a month--tasks that normally would take me the work day to finish now end up later and later into the day
mortal wedge
Yeah, I do. Takes a lot of self-discipline that I just don't have on some days.
Speaking of which... time to get to work
lyric barn
When you code a project with a book and put some changes and more functionality on it, does it count as personal project or is it just copy pasta?
crude crown
well
just figured out I'm in a bit of a pickle with my current company
to keep the story short... the VP of my "department" (he joined the company about 6/7 months ago) is looking to stop a vast majority of the ML related work and just use third party providers. This means bye bye to data scientists (which is what I've mostly worked on in the past 2/3 months).
and this is a quite well funded company mind you, the intent here (from what I can perceive from this political fuckery) is to increase time to market an whole lot.
just f*cking great.
gilded valley
You clearly have some notice, with experience you shouldn't find it too painful to get something new
sucks to have it forced upon you though
shadow moss
also, don't spend time about howt o change VP mind or how dumb/awful it is, executives generally want to shake things up all the time
can't do shit about it, just move on
crude crown
Yeah, I'm aware I won't be able to change anything (I wasn't even counting on that). Time to go through the leetcode grind.
shadow moss
don't do that
if you have experience, work on that
leetcode is try and difference yourself from everyone else with no experience
crude crown
well...
I do agree on that on principle, but the truth is that everyone is leetcode'd nowadays.
pulsar drum
Really? I never took the recruitment features on there seriously
I just use it to practice
crude crown
that's my perception from my last job process and from what I read.
marsh wind
Also if you plan to continue in data science /ML domain, they don't seem to give a shit about leetcode? @crude crown
crude crown
if you work strictly as a data scientist... you might escape it. But if you work as an ML systems engineer, you'll be leetcoded
I'm thinking about leaving DS anyway.
marsh wind
Yeah I said that from my interview experience
Well maybe depends on industry culture in the country too
crude crown
it's a quite americanized culture
marsh wind
Yeah maybe that's why
crude crown
although we're in southern europe
marsh wind
Cause in here (Paris) I hadn't have single leetcode like interview or test
shadow moss
We hire ML people, no one cares about Leetcode if you have experience
marsh wind
My case was also without experience 🤷♂️ but yeah I think DS/ML usually don't care for leetcode from all I heard and experienced
shadow moss
maybe leetcode is useful if entry level, but once you are no longer entry level, you want to play up your work experience which is critical
gilded valley
from what I hear, software devs at all levels can be leetcode interviews. But in data science, it's not at all the standard
verbal depot
@lyric barn I reckon it counts as a personal project, although that's really up to you
viral ridge
just had a call from initial recruiter after gettin hired
he said those interviews were "bloody hard"
i didnt receive 1 tech question to actually solve
open patio
hi @kind bone, we don't allow recruitment here.
open patio
you can try asking in discord.gg/devcord though
kind bone
thank you
lavish monolith
Hello. I posted my resume here before and got some advice. I made some changes accordingly and would like for someone to have a look at it again. Thank you!
unkempt cloud
Resume looks kinda shabby, like the text and content placement is kinda messed up. Looks weird.
lavish monolith
can you explain it a bit more? I did fix the gap between the lines in the education section (someone pointed that out on Reddit)
by fix, I mean I just fixed it after uploading this here
unkempt cloud
Projects section, the letter spacing looks strange. Is it just me, or is the letter spacing changing between each section?
Also, the second project one has very obvious letter spacing problems, top right text before the second line.
lavish monolith
can you check whether this is ok? I am actually using a free online software to make my resume
unkempt cloud
You should probably make a proper resume with like Word or Google Docs. No idea how much templates are recognized, but there's gotta be something less automatic available.
I made mine with Google Docs and I don't think it has lettering or content alignment problems like this one does.
lavish monolith
I think the spacing is to ensure that text is aligned left to right properly. It is the 'Justified' option in the online software that I am using
If I don't use this option, the text isn't aligned on the right side
unkempt cloud
Someone else should tell you what they think of your resume, if it's worth it to drop this software (and spend time making your resume look pleasing to the eyes). I was pretty sure I recognized this resume's style (from the software you are using), but I didn't know the format would be so bland... I have no idea how 'nice' resumes needs to be, but you'll be able to make one better in Google Docs, Acrobat, Illustrator or Photoshop, for sure.
lavish monolith
Can you maybe show me an example of a 'pleasing' resume? Especially, of another Software developer. I have looked online and the most recommended resume styles are similar to the one that I have here.
I think maybe other people can chime in and give some feedback for my resume.
spice lynx
^
mortal wedge
@lavish monolith I would move skills up to below summary and move languages down to the bottom
(Unless language is relevant to the position, in which case also move it higher)
Otherwise looks decent to me
Oh wait
This is weird, it shouldn't be spaced out like that
steep geyser
I paid $20 and made mine with Enhancv. Easy to use templates and very easy too look at
grim star
What was your first Job you did, vs the first job you didn’t like. Vs the first job you enjoyed (WEB DESIGN/ CODE)
(Everyone)
unkempt cloud
Enhancv looks pretty nice. They provide a crap ton of 'industry examples'
mortal wedge
First job I did was probably tennis coach or math tutor, first job I didn't like was tech support, first job I enjoyed was working at a neuroscience company
steep geyser
First job i did was labourer for construction and also the first job i didn't like.
So far I haven't found a job I like yet but I find much more motivation when working for myself (ie. cutting lawns and flipping real estate)
jolly furnace
i think if u use the fill width formatting in word it sometimes stretches ur words
hence that weird spacing
grim star
@steep geyser how about with web design/code?
@mortal wedge how about with Web Design/Code?
steep geyser
Actually that's how I've ended up here. Got a degree in civil eng and didn't like the work so I'm in the process of learning python. No jobs with web design/code yet
grim star
@steep geyser I tried to do engineering.... but they said I needed 2 semesters of classes I would of gotten NO CREDIT for
grim star
@steep geyser I was thinking either mechanical or electrical
@steep geyser and yea.... they said I needed 2 semesters I would of gotten nothing for. I also looked at ITT, and they said they couldn’t “confirm there credits would be excepted or even counted by other colleges.
steep geyser
Well those are 2 of the harder engineerings but were you thinking of doing a bridge program?
grim star
@steep geyser what’s that? Like a internship that turns into a career?
steep geyser
No it's allows someone to take a college diploma and transfer into year 3 of a degree
grim star
@steep geyser no, I think that was a possible path... but still they said I needed 2 semesters that I would of gotten nothing for. Also, it was weird with credits, they didn’t transfer well
verbal depot
LOL... someone did an oopsies today and added the entire company to a pipeline
sweet shore
oops indeed lol
fervent hamlet
Its intern season
gilded valley
Where is it intern season?
gilded valley
Huh - I thought it didn't typically start for another few weeks
true harness
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
gilded valley
I guess the US is a bit ahead of the UK
karmic merlin
This is not a server for recruitment @full musk
full musk
@karmic merlin I am terribly sorry. Where is the appropriate place?
karmic merlin
Not on this server thats for certain
You can check latest pinned message in this channel to get links to some services that allow recruitment
full musk
woops i just saw the big no recruitment sign ty sorry again. and ty for the information.
vapid jay
@full musk try recruiting on reddit/r/python
full musk
@vapid jay thanks alot man will do
gilded rampart
can you check whether this is ok? I am actually using a free online software to make my resume
@lavish monolith TOOOOO wordy
late river
Not sure if this is the right channel for this question but: I was wondering if anyone had any project ideas for me to work on to learn job essential skills with python. I’ve got a decent understanding of the language, just not how to apply it, and my knowledge is very surface level
Or any good places to find projects or challenges to work on?
marble wyvern
hello guys I need a job
and what are the general python questions asked in an interview
vivid dock
Dependent on the type of job you interview for
uncut nexus
Should someone start freelancing only after they have done job at some company?
dry sapphire
Should someone start freelancing only after they have done job at some company?
@uncut nexus that depends on what you want to do while freelancing...?
uncut nexus
im thinking web dev (full stack) and android dev
topaz tartan
@lavish monolith if you know latex, you can try this template https://www.overleaf.com/articles/jaydeeps-cv/vdkxtzrbbyzn
even if you don't know LaTeX you'll be able to get the syntax and edit accordingly, it's not too difficult
normal kayak
@late river try https://codingbat.com/python for python challenges.
spring parcel
Hi generally speaking is Java better than Python for jobs as people would use java more than python? I'm seeking to master both
opal perch
depends what your goal is
vivid dock
I got my education with Java
Have onyl written Js / Python / C# since I started wokring
vast shoal
Should someone start freelancing only after they have done job at some company?
@uncut nexus I think that's probably a pretty good idea.
uncut nexus
(form freelancing point of view)
how much does a degree (Under Graduate) matter if someone has skills
im asking because i have to take decision whether i will
opt BTech or BSC
doing BTech will make getting a job easy but will not give me much time to learn anything other than the syllabus (which is outdated here in India )
doing BSC will give me time to learn things other than the syllabus but here a person with a BTech degree is give prefrence over someone with a BSC degree
i am very confused as to which path should i take
dire kite
k
im 14
but I'm fluent in Python
and C++ from an arduino perpective
Im trying to get into serverside coding but I have like absolutley no idea how that works
like zilch
nada
How should I get into it to be as efficient as possible while learning
vivid dock
You have plenty of time to "get into it". Come up with fun ideas for projects, and just try to do them. The more projects you attempt, the more areas outside your knowledge you'll discover, the more you learn.
vast shoal
There's not really much to backend development. It's usually just, receive an incoming message, read from a database, process data, write something to the database, return a response message to the sender.
There are details, but that's usually the essence.
normal kayak
@uncut nexus you might be able to avoid the decision (whether or not to get a degree; and if you do decide to get a degree, BTech or BSC) if you pursue a degree through remote classes via The Open University in Britain. I'm not sure what it would cost for you, but it's a good school and coursework is very much like that of a high-quality MOOC.
vivid dock
Maybe ask other services, or send messages somewhere else. (for the backend question)
vast shoal
Yeah, true, that as well.
next crown
aight data analysis is a skill set that studies, analyses and breaks down or improve data
@solid berry python is perfect for that
next crown
you can learn it in a week if you were to convert 6 hours a day to it
solid berry
damn
next crown
@solid berryhold on a sec I'm gonna send a video
it's only 6 hours
not a day kinda exaggeration A hour or 2 is enough @solid berry
next crown
python data analysis freecodecamp
you can use jupyer notebook and follow along @solid berry
also learn the basics of python
solid berry
Yeah thats what am gonna do rn
next crown
it'll show you how to plot graphs, visualise data etc but you'll be using libraries in python @solid berry
solid berry
wtf is libraries btw?
next crown
import numpy
import matplot etc
solid berry
ah
solid berry
i still dont know when to use libraries b4, yes i did it b4
idk what does libraries contain and when to use em
next crown
do some data analysis projects when the week is up and put them on your resume(not the obvious ones)
@solid berry after all of that learn web development cause no matter what you'll definitely need it in life
next crown
for programming at least
solid berry
hence why i stated transitioning to other languages
next crown
@solid berryaight cool np, but if you want a job should stick to one language for now
solid berry
be a master of one for now rather then jack of all trades?
also hmu with the video
ill crack it down day by day
next crown
@solid berryyeah focus on python, aight gimme a second to send it
distant crow
be mostly a master of one, with exposure to others
ideally (later in career, once you've mastered the one) be a master of one, conversational in another, and have a good understanding of the ecosystem around both
steep geyser
@next crown do you mind sending that video to me as well
next crown
@steep geyseraight np
steep geyser
@next crown thanks!
crude crown
not sure if being a master of one is the best of ideas
maybe being a "pro" of two or three
winged ingot
Hello! I'm a high school senior who's taking Personal Finance, and I have an assignment to interview at least one person with a job in STEM. Would anyone like to be interviewed and discuss your job/career? It should take about 15-20 min. Name can be kept Confidential as well. Please @ me or PM me if anyone is available 🙂
mortal wedge
It's not that simple. You have to go through several hurdles to get a job/interview. In order to get past the ATS you need a good resume. In order to get past HR you need awesome/relevant projects. In order to ace the interview you need to know your data structures and algorithms. Then to actually do your job you need ???
??? is based on the specific job
You need relevant experience, whether that's through industry, academia, or personal projects
You'll have to actually program on the job...
Yes, haha, it's so funny
wintry imp
kinda agree with u on that tbh
its to test ur problem solving skill
how is it bullshit
its shows how competetive u are
they dont want to hire someone who can only write hello world program
but they have knowledge in other aspect
like i said problem solving skills
mortal wedge
Yes, companies use DSA in their screening process
Probably too much, but what can you do ¯_(ツ)_/¯
jolly furnace
i guess its called being woke
wintry imp
for my first intership as UI/UX designer they asked me progrmming stuffs and DSA bahahaha
mortal wedge
Here's the thing though, if you know DSA and literally nothing else you'll get fired
sweet shore
I never understood why the algo thing was so heavy on the interview side
wintry imp
companies dont actually gaf if you can code a real project
@vapid jay that def false
it will help a lot
crude crown
It's just a way to filter people
wintry imp
but they have to make sure that its u who actually made that project
nowdays u can jsut copy and shit
mortal wedge
@sweet shore There are reasons. It's something tech companies can all agree on as should be common knowledge.
wintry imp
from internet
crude crown
that's very true
wintry imp
most people probably dont have any projects to show during an interview dude
@vapid jay that true too for ppl with CS degrees
sweet shore
@wintry imp and non-CS degrees, or degrees at all, like myself
mortal wedge
There are different steps to being employed and they all require different skillsets and don't necessarily have a lot of overlap. 1) Getting an interview 2) Nailing an interview 3) Not getting fired
crude crown
well, if you're a CS student in the current year... you should be aware that you need some kind of side project to get in a entry level gig
mortal wedge
You're absolutely right
crude crown
side projects -> a repo or two in github or something like that
wintry imp
like are you still in school pistol
@vapid jay uni dropout bahah
sweet shore
"big O blah blah blah"
crude crown
it depends on the companies really
wintry imp
right ok makes sense now
@vapid jay i got internship as a ui/ux designer in my first year from the project i did in my uni lol
but well it was UI?UX so fair enough
crude crown
but if you're aiming for the usual suspects... yeah, expect that DSA gauntlet
wintry imp
@wintry imp and non-CS degrees, or degrees at all, like myself
@sweet shore for ?
sweet shore
Not being able to share the coolest stuff I've done
Lol
I mean, I can point to images.nasa.gov and say I did a lot of that, but I can't prove it lol
wintry imp
bruh trust me ive been to some coding interview they were like we really liked ur projects and stuffs
it gives u some edge over other ppl
crude crown
it's well known that the hiring process is broken, everyone acknowledges that
sweet shore
Big tech doesn't even pay all that well until (if?) you get to senior levels. All of that giant Corp stuff is for the birds lol.
wintry imp
and aside that,mostly ppl do projects for building their portfolio. I pickup projects coz i love working on new and exciting things.
it always dont have to be for the job u know
sweet shore
Good, but not great
wintry imp
entry level is like 60 k here
sweet shore
Where is here
crude crown
60k is likely the ceiling for someone in the technical track here in southern europe
I'm talking about someone at the level of a principal engineer or something like that
crude crown
Welcome to the rest of the world 🙂
sweet shore
Just saying, Amazon wanted to hire me, but the pay and benefits were absolute trash compared to what I'm making and I don't have to move to Seattle or DC.
mortal wedge
Hold up
Aren't you making like 200 an hour though?
I've heard of junior devs at FAANG making 200k+
I'm in Neuroscience. It doesn't pay anywhere near as well, but I get to work on cool and meaningful things
sweet shore
I guess Amazon just pays trash then lol
200k in SF is like 40k where I live though lol
wintry imp
Bhahaha
mortal wedge
I believe you, I'm just trying to add context, for other people
sweet shore
Right :)
wintry imp
Bhahaha
mortal wedge
Again, keep in mind that you do have to keep this job
Because getting fired sucks for your resume
Yeah, Amazon and facebook mince their junior devs
I think all of FAANG does
sweet shore
Eh, I found that to be less true later in my career. I never got fired, but I bounced around and that for whatever reason made me desirable in startups ¯_(ツ)_/¯
mortal wedge
Unless you want your resume to look like garbage you should aim to hold down a job for minimum 1 year
wintry imp
Wish i cud apply at fang at some point of my life
crude crown
getting fired doesn't suck that much, provided that doesn't lead to a big gap between jobs
sweet shore
My avg over the last few years has been <1 yr
mortal wedge
It makes sense why some managers would see it as a problem.
mortal wedge
Why hire you when they'll have to replace you in less than a year?
wintry imp
True
mortal wedge
j4, I think you're just some kind of prodigy or something, lol.
mortal wedge
and if you're some kind of prodigy, you'll find you get a lot more leeway with a lot of the stuff we're discussing
sweet shore
Hardly at prodigy at 32 lol
I have a knack for making things work in complex environments lol
crude crown
sweet shore
STL COL is way low
wintry imp
i didnt see ur msg lul
crude crown
well, there's an enormous gap between wages in the US compared to Europe
wintry imp
lul
wintry imp
y r u being so toxic about the algo interview, i think they know whats better for their company.
tbh
crude crown
they'll, hopefully, be evaluated on other things
crude crown
there was a time where there this DSA gauntlet didn't exist
I'm well aware of the process.
wintry imp
look up the interview process though macha at faang. there really isnt much of evaluation beyond 'take these tests' and 'lets talk personality'
@vapid jay idk about us but here, they did ask for my personal projects when i applied for swe jobs
ohh
lmfao
u pretty much saying im incompetent bahaha
ah fair enough
some miscommunication from my side
🙃
my bad
nah its g ur veting ur own frustation
haha
hahaha but if u stay at same company ur personal growth will really lower down
lol
ive seen that with one of my uncle
he is just like it pays me well and i dont have to worry much here so y sud i change jobs lol
ye just try looking for new jobs, probs gonna be hard in this pandemic but ye best of luck m8
hahah true true one of my m8 applied for swe job, all he had to do was crop the image size for the web abahha n ez 70k of his life
he still btiched about how much less the pay was
well it ws for juniro level so
but the thing is u do all this hard shit at uni and u getting paid for cropping image for the web, that sounds pretty sad. BUt welp for some ppl its all about the money, instead of job satisfaction
mortal wedge
I think you nailed it the other day SP. Job satisfaction has multiple factors, your compensation is only one of them.
a large part of my job satisfaction is not needing to wear pants
finite root
70k?
Yeah thats a bit low.
Nice... If that's what will make you happy then do so.
I prefer makin at-least 110k at-least..
Eh, yeah.
Yeah, didn't expect that either.
Yeah cali is pretty good.
Well, yeah.
white karma
100k is what I’m after
white karma
SoCal
mortal wedge
Where in SoCal? (Don't tell me, I'm just pointing out its a consideration)
mortal wedge
Yeah that's a realistic target
white karma
Sweet
mortal wedge
Especially if you're going for FAANG
It's weird/dumb/just how it works that there's a huge step between FAANG jobs and anything else
By FAANG I mean any large tech company
Also depends on whether or not we're talking entry level
or junior/senior, etc
Entry level Amazon Orange county is 110k
modest panther
guys.. cloudflare has so many jobs
mortal wedge
Man... Amazon warehouse employees make dirt while amazon swe make bank
modest panther
white karma
Entry level is what I’m shooting for since I’ve never had a tech job
mortal wedge
Yeah, 100k FAANG is super reasonable
mortal wedge
You may not be able to negotiate as high a starting, but 100k is still doable
white karma
Quite honestly I’d be happy with anything over 75-80
mortal wedge
Then you should be fine even outside of FAANG
white karma
Wew
shadow moss
@vapid jay good luck with that plan, most companies prohibit employees from working outside the country they were hired in
yes
two reasons, A) Tax reasons B) Security reasons
and when your VPN IP shows up in Thailand, then what?
and if they find out, they could fire you and possibly sue you
haughty talon
Do what I did: Get a remote job from california, at california rates, while living in rural pennsylvania. Cheap living, and high wage
Didn't last long, but it was nice while it did
haughty talon
Nah, the company went under
Which is mostly why I didn't want to move: I didn't trust it
swift pine
I want to look at entry levels internships too but I'm not in the US
vast latch
Hello, do you guys have any idea about Canada? I want to take express entry with data science.
upper wing
I kinda wonder if there is "I wanna be python junior: starter pack" sort of thing. Like list of common skills required from people in order to be hired for the very first time
upper wing
I know that usually "django/flask + basic experience of working with some databases" is asked. But what else and up to which degree? Like - you can never be confident enough in your skills
I know some python middle who lost his job due to company's business dying to corona. And he s like "well, idk if Im good enough". And so he s stuck without work for about a half year by now. And thats the person with few years of real working experience
haughty talon
leetcode looks like lot like tryplebyte... wonder if they're in the business of selling info too.
upper wing
kinda makes me worry
haughty talon
"Good enough" isn't defined by what you know, but how you learn
upper wing
like the speed of learning, or?
haughty talon
As with anything this is totally anecdotal, but at my work we don't look for people to know everything about the role we want them to fill, but instead look to make sure they have the fundamentals required to help them grow into it. Nobody will ever be a perfect fit for a job, but you gotta have the enthusiasm to grow and learn.
The fundamentals though depend greatly on the job you're going for. If you're looking to get into data science, it's an entirely different set of skills as compared to looking to get into frontend webdev, granted with a good amount of overlap.
mortal hazel
I think unless you're looking for someone in a short-term role, or to solve a very specific problem, then that's the sign of good hiring.
As an employee I don't want to work somewhere that wants to invest in me and help develop my skills.
strange rover
@silver furnace @silver furnace @silver furnace @silver furnace
swift pine
I have been getting into web dev with flask but it's still a long way
I'm fluent in English (Spanish speaking native) though I'm not sure how valuable is that in this field
sweet shore
You would be really surprised
I'm not at all fluent in Spanish (enough to get me into trouble lol) and that was very helpful on a previous team. We had many devs in SA and Spain
And my brazilian teammates tried to teach me portuguese, but alas, I can learn programming languages well, but not human languages lol
sweet shore
Bilingual is a great resume trait
swift pine
I also have an accounting and tourism assistance certificate but alas they were more about the journey than the piece of paper lol
sweet shore
Lol I'm not overly confident the tourism thing would help, but accounting yes
But maybe, who knows, maybe you apply for a job at a tourism firm and that really helps lol
No experience is bad experience
Unless your experience is criminal in nature I suppose
swift pine
accounting classes were hell anyways so I dunno about even showing it
I hope so, I just started looking at internships so I'm not even sure how strict or how much employers expect
upper wing
speaking of languages. Is some official paper regarding your english knowledge (all these A/B/C things. Forgot how this test is called) usually required, if you arent native english speaker?
swift pine
Maybe not required but certainly would help
I forgot the name too but I took it in the last year of high shool
should probably retake it cause I was in one of the farthest desks of the classroom and it did hurt the listening part a bit
distant crow
for English tests, something like IELTS or TOEFL?
upper wing
I wonder if its possible to complete these online
distant crow
yes, should be
shadow moss
For United States, Mexico and Latin America have become new hot outsourcing markets
so knowing Spanish can help
distant crow
funny thing is I think I did an IELTS test for fun, and I got a surprisingly poor mark, so I guess I don't English too well
mortal wedge
I thought I was a good coder until I got my first coding interview, I was blown away by how "bad" I was.
(It's just because I didn't know DSA)
upper wing
what s DSA?
mortal wedge
Data Structures and Algorithms.
Tech companies love asking questions about them in interviews
Regardless of your position
swift pine
Just began coding for the first time a month ago and I'm just now learning about frameworks and databases
upper wing
like what? The common theory or?