entropy is a hard one to explain haha
#career-advice
marsh wind
Nah not really. Just gotta give a proper illustrative example
tardy grove
Ah ok, thank you for the insight @marsh wind, I will keep that in mind if I ever encounter a situation like that
im really bad at explaning things cause i go on a tangent lol
marsh wind
Well, I mean it you don't have physics background they won't ask such things @tardy grove
So be ready for questing about your background
Not just whatever
tardy grove
Oh ok I see
I could see why employers would care about this, seems like a good question to ask
marsh wind
Well I'd say generally you have two scenarios
Either they ask you about your pastt
In terms of knowledge
Or about things you are going to do on job
Ability to answer first type when your interviewer is from totally different field is a strong point
Well, not just answer
But make them understand what you say
Or better to say, make them think they understood
tardy grove
I don't know if it's dependent on the company and just who you're applying with
marsh wind
Cause it means you can communicate with clients for example if needed
tardy grove
but im guessing for some jobs they may have technical people in the interview
NOt just HR?
Or ive also heard of multi stage interviews
marsh wind
Almost always its multi stage
tardy grove
Do they usually start with HR or technical in your opinion, or just dependent on the company?
tardy grove
Ah ok
There's a local company that I really want to intern at and like I was talking with recruiters during job fairs and they were liek they don't expect much experience, so I'm hopijng that's the case
Cause I would have no clue what technical questions they could ask lol
crude crown
usually it's with the HR.
storm tangle
resume question: if I'm transitioning out of graphic design, and my old positions are of no relevance, do I just remove the descriptions? it takes up a lot of space and i feel like they dont really care
sweet shore
@storm tangle not completely, just trim them down to any mentions that might be helpful -- e.g. interpersonal skills, communication, management, etc...
storm tangle
@sweet shore thanks for responding ! that makes a lot of sense.
tender thicket
@vapid jay posting a meme isn't appropriate for this channel, which is about python and the workplace
wide needle
I started in the adjacent field of Linux systems administration and used python for automation. From there I learned more and more until eventually software was a more core focus of my job
wide needle
linux systems administration is kind of an outdated role. this was a long time ago. i'm sure companies still do it but it predates SRE and devops. imagine if devops didn't know how to code
brittle yarrow
hello, im new into all this python thingy and my main goal is to earn a steady amount of cash before going to highschool. (steady amount means something like i have bought a normal pc, and all the stuff i want). I want to ask, is python really in that demand that a 14yr old would be hired? where should i begin (obviously, i need to learn the langauge properly, besides that)?
mortal dove
How much time do you have?
brittle yarrow
like a whole year
but it isnt really all that important
i mean yeah, learning a language can take months
and i know that
opal perch
Python is in demand, but regardless how in demand something is, I doubt a 14 year old will be given any dev job
brittle yarrow
but if its really all that hard, which i dont think so
yeah makes sense
welp then thanks guys
mortal dove
But if you pose as 21 year old and get really good maybe you can get freelance work
opal perch
I'd just focus on school, enjoying your life, and building up your personal projects.
or that ^^
brittle yarrow
i just need some pocket money
opal perch
but don't encourage it @mortal dove, he'll try doing freelance and end up getting screwed over by someone because he wasn't clear enough in the contract
zenith geyser
true that
brittle yarrow
i kinda know that i cant be a millionare
mortal dove
What's the point
brittle yarrow
the point is cash
not the idea
yet
or wait
what
i have an idea, which i need to learn python, then somehow sell that idea
jeez idk
mortal dove
You can try to build some websites for your local stores
opal perch
what about stuff like gardening or mowing lawns? I just find it unrealistic you'll get much actual python work at 14, other than personal projects or unless yuo already know a lot
@mortal dove to even get that, he still has to show to them that he has the skillset or he's capable of making a website for a small business
brittle yarrow
what about stuff like gardening or mowing lawns? I just find it unrealistic you'll get much actual python work at 14, other than personal projects or unless yuo already know a lot
@opal perch tried, theres literally no work anywhere, and i dont want to go like 20km /day to get like 1-2 euros a day
mortal dove
He has 1 year, I don't know how capable he is
mortal dove
I think you should follow bon jovi's idea.
opal perch
but?
brittle yarrow
on summer, but since the pandemic is here, you cant really do anything
all the fields, and such where you can get 14 euros a day (let me remind you, thats a lot for me) are closed
noone wants his property to become a breeding ground for a virus
which is normal but still
no work no money
makes sense isnt it?
opal perch
well unfortunately that's the case for everywhere in the world right now. A lot of people are struggling, be happy you're 14 and dont have rent, bills and a family to care of. A lot of people are stuck with no money right now
brittle yarrow
true
mortal dove
I mean, i didn't have the thought of programming when i was 14 , how did you get the idea?
mortal dove
Woah
opal perch
and you didnt start at 7?
opal perch
and you still haven't started?
mortal dove
What did you from 7 to 14
brittle yarrow
doing nothing
really
i mean
look
i found out about programming on the age of 7
thought its too complicated for me
mortal dove
I can't believe i am having this conversation with a 14 year old. Asking him what he did bw 7 and 14
brittle yarrow
at the age of 12 i thought its enough and tried to get myself more involved
opal perch
and then?
brittle yarrow
and i dont know anymore
opal perch
did you manage anything
brittle yarrow
well i know that programming is a hell thats for sure
mortal dove
You need to listen to pink floyds time.
brittle yarrow
i mean ppl say that and it sure looks like it
brittle yarrow
I can't believe i am having this conversation with a 14 year old. Asking him what he did bw 7 and 14
@mortal dove is this an offense or smth im confused
ofcourse, rewarding, but people say its just isnt like they thought it will be
mortal dove
I meant kids should have fun at the age of 14 and i am asking him if he didn't do anything productive.
How society evolved.
@brittle yarrow I mean, if you like to solve problems you are already in a great starting place
brittle yarrow
fun is a tottaly different thing if you were being bullied for most of primary and middleschool
i do
mortal dove
Then get started and you will wonder why so.many people can't get started.
opal perch
ok yeety, I'll tell you how it is. if you want to get into programming, its never too late and never too early. Just start, explore it, there are plenty of free resources, there are resources out there for the younger people. You can do this man.
brittle yarrow
just get started?
opal perch
Yes mate, just start, don't over think it, don't worry about making mistakes, just do
mortal dove
Basically yeah> just get started?
brittle yarrow
its easy to say dont overthink
mortal dove
You think you are the only one starting?
brittle yarrow
no
mortal dove
We started at some point
brittle yarrow
and i guess you guys had a harder time since there maybe werent so many free libraries and such
well i mean ill be broke but atleast i know how to code
wait
can you code a map into python
like google maps
or something like that
mortal dove
Join voice chat
brittle yarrow
cause its a big thing for me
mortal dove
Come to offtopic or something
brittle yarrow
mkay
actually no, i have everything that i wanted to ask
i finnaly feel relieved lol
all my questions have been aswered even though i didnt ask most of them
thanks guys
thick lark
How long does it take to know if programming is the right career path for you?
gilded valley
That probably depends on a lot of factors - so it's difficult for this channel to give a hard and fast answer. If you hate programming after maybe 6months of writing code, then you can probably infer that software development isn't for you
but it's worth keeping in mind that the kind of code you'd be writing for university/school, for a job, and for personal projects are all substantially different experiences
thick lark
@gilded valley Yeah, I realize that it's not a clear-cut question. I'm just wondering because I only recently started learning how to program after several failed attempts. I'm farther than I've ever been and I've actually started a project that interests me. I started learning this time to try and explore an alternative career path. I'm worried that if I do want to pursue programming, the degree I'm currently in and not having a lot of time until I graduate might hurt me. I wanted to go to law school but I haven't even thought about it since I've started learning Python. I don't know if it would be worth it to change my major to computer science since it would delay graduation
sick stratus
If I'm not interested in web development (building websites, animations, user interfaces) or data science (number pushing, making multidimensional arrays, databases) are there any other avenues in Python as a career open to me? A lot of the projects that I have worked on are a bit random/haphazard (facial recognition, chess analysis, reddit scraping, image generation) but I can't see those as being skills used at the job-level.
crude crown
Python's used in some things related to SRE/DevOps
it's used as well in some companies that develop CAD software (as a scripting layer)
It's also used as a scripting layer for some game engines I think
half imp
you guys want a career? You should read this
importanht to know the innards of the industry
u shoulkd udnerstand software policy yeah?
half imp
@blazing dew please read
everyone please read above piece of extensive anthropological research on IT industry employment
and please ensure that this cannot sustain
blazing mountain
@half imp It seems the trend is again going into the direction of in house programmers, since dealing with Indians is so annoying it's just not worth it.
So I was told from people who work in the field.
half imp
@blazing mountain forget outsourcing ---- talk of get5ing employed in major IT firms
blazing mountain
Like remote work type of job?
blazing dew
I have no interest in reading this. Please stop pinging me about it.
half imp
If there is an Infosys or Wipro centre in the US, should they follow equal employment opportunity policy or not?
@blazing dew OK
@blazing mountain no talk Cisco headquarters
true turtle
Please stop pinging me about it.
vapid jay
lol this dude
true turtle
@Xithrius#1318OK
half imp
@true turtle nobody is pinging you about anything..this is my first ping with your name mentioned
true turtle
nah it's fine mate
edgy onyx
It's a quote.
true turtle
I just found it a bit amusing
half imp
no wonder.. there are others who are at the receiving end..the state of Californis is not finding it amusing
shadow moss
This article is mix of truths with possible slight touch of racism
half imp
@shadow moss that is not an article..this is news
shadow moss
I was talking your original post
half imp
caste discrimination is endemic to Indian society
edgy onyx
It's an article, and when will you stop posting the link
half imp
when we go there, we take it with us, of course
This is a reuters news piece..and this is a different channel..you asvised me to bring it here
half imp
reuters is a news agency , does not write articles
edgy onyx
Wh
half imp
it is actually what isn happening
half imp
if you do not like something or you have entrenched interests, you shout hoarse
in media, a news report is different from an opinion piece
mortal wedge
Sure
half imp
the State of Califirnia is indeed suing Cisco
shadow moss
“So, because of this, Indian based consulting companies like TCS, HCL, Tech Mahindra, Wipro have taken over major corporations and just ignore (or just pay off) any discrimination lawsuits thrown at them in the USA and Canada but, continue to discriminate. Unless you’re Indian, don’t even think about applying to Microsoft, Hewlett Packard, Adobe, many federal and state gov’ts, Google, Apple, T-Mobile, Dell, etc. If you happen to land a job with a predominantly Indian company, they will sabotage you out of the picture.” this is complete bullshit
half imp
that is from the picture..what about this?
true turtle
the State of Califirnia is indeed suing Cisco
good for them
half imp
shadow moss
I have numerous non Indian friends who work at Microsoft, Google Apple, Dell
edgy onyx
That is indeed untrue
vapid jay
this dude posting the link twice...
shadow moss
I think you have axe to grind
true turtle
third time is the charm
half imp
one ofn the people who is being sued by California is an erstwhile associate professor at Purdue
shadow moss
my current company is heavy user of H-1B contractors, do I think system requires reform? Sure
half imp
we are not talking contractors on;y
shadow moss
we have direct H-1B visa holders as well
half imp
we are talking actual management at US companies
or US based companies
CISCO is not an Indian company
shadow moss
BTW, in United States, new outsource hotness is Latin America
half imp
go there and see what is the cdomposition of the workforce
@shadow moss that is because of the babes
mortal wedge
Is your point that there's racism in the US? If so I accept that prima facie. Otherwise I'm not sure what you're driving at.
half imp
this is about a particular type of racism practised by higher caste Indian managers working in the US
mortal wedge
I also think this is the most active I've ever seen this channel
shadow moss
WTF dude, that's pretty much racist statement there
half imp
it is called the Indian caste system
shadow moss
"the babes"
half imp
@shadow moss if it is, then why is the satete of California accusing CISCO of pracyising caste based racism?
@shadow moss LA babes are the best looking in the woirld..what is racist there??
@shadow moss and the IT industry is male dominated.what I said was feminist, not racist
shadow moss
Can you learn ping etiquette
shadow moss
Cisco has 76k employees, I would be shocked if they didn't have racism going on, racism is problem everywhere and it's hard to stamp out but many companies are trying
half imp
when you outsource a project to an Indian company
CISCO is dominated by people of south asian origin..how?
edgy onyx
@shadow moss LA babes are the best looking in the woirld..what is racist there??
@blazing dew Don't think this server allowed racism last I checked, please do the mod thing 🙏
half imp
it is not an Indian company
edgy onyx
sorry for the ping Rabbit
shadow moss
someone has a chip on their shoulder and wants to scream about it to everyone else is what I've come up with
half imp
saying that women of a particular country are very good looking is not racist
gettingn psyched when caste is mentioned shows investment
edgy onyx
You are not only being racist but also objectifying women
mortal wedge
I don't see anyone disagreeing with your fundamental points regarding racism in US companies
I see agreement
half imp
so when you outsource a project to an Indian company, where do you think the project is going? do these compoanies have fair practices?
edgy onyx
I really don't feel comfortable when you're around
half imp
https://www.forbesindia.com/article/iim-bangalore/the-caste-is-alive-and-kicking-in-corpo-rate-india/53059/1
This is foebes
blazing dew
@edgy onyx @severe widget, if you will.
half imp
Forbes and IIM(B) - one of India's topm management institutes
forbes and IIM(B) are rqacist?
racist?
shadow moss
First you link to something talking about United States and now you are rolling over to Indian politics, where is all this going?
inner wrenBOT
✅ silenced current channel for 10 minute(s).
blazing dew
I'm keeping this chat silenced while I figure out what to do, I'm not letting whatever's happening go any further.
craggy wave
Alright then, let's have a look
inner wrenBOT
✅ unsilenced current channel.
blazing dew
!silence 1h
open patio
!silence forever
inner wrenBOT
✅ silenced current channel indefinitely.
craggy wave
!tempban 385116161580204033 7d It should have been clear by now that continuing to be argumentative, reposting the same link, objectifying women is not okay. You've already been told that a couple of times in the last 20 minutes alone. Now you've started opening help channels just to mention this channel for unknown reasons. Please, if you come back, play nice with others.
inner wrenBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @half imp until 2020-08-09 18:09 (6 days and 23 hours).
craggy wave
!unshhh
inner wrenBOT
✅ unsilenced current channel.
craggy wave
And, for the record, this is not some kind of soapbox discussion channel. This is to talk about #career-advice in relation to Python.
gilded valley
On the careers front, I have a question for Canadians out there. Are there companies, especially in the finance industry, willing to sponsor visas for new graduates? I have a pretty strong CV at this point - but I really would prefer not to work in the UK
nova barn
Guys how could I profit with Django as a teenager (Not freelancing/making an online shop/adsense)?
gilded valley
you probably don't
best way to earn money as a teenager is stacking shelves in walmart or wherever
gilded valley
make cool things - then host them/put them on github
nova barn
Ummm...That's good ... for my resume . But like isn't there any other way to profit?
mortal wedge
Without freelancing?
shadow moss
you make money buy writing software to sell to others
nova barn
Without freelancing/making an online shop/adsense
shadow moss
online ship/adsense/freelancing is what people want
nova barn
And the problem is that I am not able to do it in my country
shadow moss
stock shelves then?
nova barn
With this covid-19 thing?
shadow moss
that's a decision for you to make
gilded valley
stacking shelves is probably more likely to be successful than freelancing anyway. But given that you can't freelance, your only hope is to make something cool and rely on patreon or paypal donations
nova barn
You know what is my problem with all of these :
In addition to the websites not allowing my country to sign in , paypal and patreon don't either
mortal wedge
That sucks 😦
sweet shore
What country?
nova barn
Iran
mortal wedge
Yeah, I wish I could give some advice. Hard to live in some places and do web work.
clear halo
looking for a job can only work 1 hour a day on sundays only while my parents are at church
nova barn
true harness
one hour a day on sundays is probably very very few jobs
idle jolt
Im looking for job fresh out of coolage with BS degree in computer
wispy cape
vapid jay
If Digital Man is fine with like super low pay (am a student myself) I may be interested in hiring. And okay guys, we derailed a bit, lets stop with the recuiting.
mortal wedge
They were just trolling
edgy onyx
yeah they were
edgy onyx
they were also trolling in #python-discussion, but let's not have off-topic convos here
nova barn
yea
subtle ginkgo
!jobme
Hmm. Figured I'd try that command. Haha
Hope everyone is having a nice weekend. A pythonic one at that! 😉
storm tangle
making a resume for entry level jobs.. anyone have any tips/advice?
vapid jay
im hoping to get some advice too cuz ive just been ghosted lol
storm tangle
@vapid jay do you have idea what went wrong?
sullen osprey
Ehh i need ideas as well, i know flask but seems that people are not interested
So i will move to django, but still i want to try with flask
shadow moss
sunshine depends on what country you are in
storm tangle
I am in USA
shadow moss
But for US, clean resume, proper spelling and grammar, one page
and at this point, it's a numbers game and extremely difficult with COVID
storm tangle
my res is mostly projects, like 2/3 projects, then skills, education and exp at the bottom
is that okay? - that is probably my main question
shadow moss
I'd say, Skills, Education, Then either Projects if you have no industry relevent experience,else experience/projects
storm tangle
yeah the problem is lack of relevant experience
shadow moss
right now in US, you can't take ghosting as sign of anything
Nothing right now makes sense
like we just pulled our 2 Jr. Positions for mid level
since it's going to be months before we are back in the office and it's hard to train Jr Remote
storm tangle
thats really messed up lol ngl
not you , or anyone in particular, its just crazy that things are this bad
sullen osprey
Yea
shadow moss
doesn't matter, we are likely to not get mid level person either
sullen osprey
If i found jr position i would definitely apply for that
storm tangle
I apply for jr positions, but they want 4 years exp
especially in NY , everything is flooded
white karma
The experience they’re asking for is just there to filter and discourage
storm tangle
is it really? because its effective lol
white karma
“Oh he gave up after applying once? Guess he didn’t want the job, wonder why...”
It’s a half truth
They really do want that kind of experience, but they’ll take whatever is closest
sullen osprey
I mean what am i supposed to do if i dont know to work with docker or aws or django or wordpress but they want it
....
wispy cape
if you fit half the requirements, just apply
white karma
^
wispy cape
sounds cheesy af, but you miss all the shots you don't take
worst case scenario they ignore you
storm tangle
but the requirements are like for senior, but the position is jr
i usually only fit the reqs for like half or 1/4
wispy cape
apply, still
white karma
A lot of it also has to do with HR and their “outdated” criteria
storm tangle
thats fair
sometimes they ask must have x experience of a technology that only has 4 years or something lol
white karma
They want a senior but they’re only willing to hire a junior in essence
storm tangle
im just gonna start applying , fuck it
wispy cape
my current position asked for R, Python, C, C++, C# and experience in electronics, i only know python and c, it was just the HR that went crazy
fringe sierra
I have read multiple anecdotes now (go anecdata) about inventors of languages applying for positions that require more years exp than the languages existed
fringe sierra
aside from that, you could always spend more time pairing fonts
storm tangle
I have read multiple anecdotes now (go anecdata) about inventors of languages applying for positions that require more years exp than the languages existed
@fringe sierra I've heard this too, a lot of them
wispy cape
It probably just goes like: "We need someone with 15 years of exp, that knows X"
HR reads as "We need someone that has 15 years of exp with X"
storm tangle
another question! can I manually design my resume? or does it have to be an exact format? because no one reads it or cares about the design, and it just goes into a machine that scans for certain words?
fringe sierra
designing your resume is one of the few bright spots in the job search
white karma
Make it stand out
fringe sierra
do whatever you like how you like
also, it helps to consider it more of an ad than a history of everything you've done
by that I mean you can focus on X and omit YZ
storm tangle
yeah my previous experience is not really relevant
like maybe only for front-end , but I mostly use python
yeah I'm just gonna mass apply because fuck it, things are crazy right now
shadow moss
you can manually design but using template isn't bad either
yes, machine scanable is ultra important
sturdy nest
hey guys, quick question. For those of you that have freelanced building scrapers before: is your final deliverable meant to include the bot and the data, or just the data? is there an "industry standard" on this?
storm tangle
is there way to ensure machine scanability ?
shadow moss
Godslayer, that should be ultra clear in the contract
sturdy nest
thanks for the reply. I've been doing some research and it looks like it's project specific. Some projects require one-off datasets whereas others require periodic maintenance as a service. I guess it's to be negotiated between the parties
mortal wedge
Basically, imagine your entire resume being parsed into plaintext
So tables would be absolutely butchered
some people like to italicize and bold, I don't
You can ignore advice about machine readability if you're getting it directly into a hiring manager's hands, but even then keep an extra resume that you use for that and make sure you still have one that can be parsed into plaintext
atomic umbra
hey guys
how much paycut should i be thinking about if im looking for a job during covid?
mint citrus
none
why would you look for a pay cut?
hell i got a new job during covid and am making more now
you shouldnt think you will get a paycut and shouldnt accept one
atomic umbra
hmm im a new grad and I havent got any offers from companies at the average wage
mint citrus
What's average for you and what state?
mint citrus
I'm assuming this is your first job
fringe sierra
sooner you start sooner you can fob off to a better one
fringe sierra
I started even lower than that
atomic umbra
hmm yeah this is my first job
atomic umbra
so you think i should take it? its a 2 year contract
mint citrus
Actually went from a terrible enterprise company to a startup
fringe sierra
contract? AUS must be really different
mint citrus
Contract is normal
fringe sierra
I'm accustomed to at-will employment
mint citrus
In all countries
My first job was 1 yr contract
So was second job
Which got moved to indefinite
And so the 3rd and 4th job
2nd was in Germany, 3rd and 4th in Thailand
fringe sierra
in the US we 90% of the time sign up for quit/get fired any time for any reason
fringe sierra
tech nomad life?
mint citrus
The one in the US was contractor work
No not quite
I get employed locally. Not freelance stuff
fringe sierra
yeah if you're not contract both you and the company have ultimate flexibility in walking away
mint citrus
We still have that flexibility
Usually tho you have like x months of notice (or x weeks)
fringe sierra
lol
mint citrus
But that's really up to the company
fringe sierra
I'm talking same day
mint citrus
Yeah I only had that once
And then the company had to pay me for 5 months
Severance pay
fringe sierra
lol
mint citrus
Yeah it was pretty wild
I was planning to leave anyways
They just fired me first
So I ended up in a situation where I was fired and 3 days later hired again by another company
And like 5 months of free money
fringe sierra
💯
atomic umbra
so what do you guys think?
mint citrus
Try to get another offer I guess
You are like applying to multiple places at once right?
fringe sierra
or if you get desperate, ask for a shorter contract
mint citrus
Just wait till the last min
See what you get
But if that's the only offer you are getting I would take it
fringe sierra
I would take it and then, as you're getting new projects and stuff, search a little bit on the side
mint citrus
Yeah def do that
fringe sierra
and put small amounts of $ into stonks if you can spare
atomic umbra
fair
mint citrus
im actually starting that late
atomic umbra
?
atomic umbra
well if you invested stocks in this year you probs would have lost money
mint citrus
prob
i invested in litecoin
and now its worth only 15 USD instead of 100 USD
im using robinhood and might buy some stock while they are low
will depend a bit on election tho
frozen flame
They were low in march!
mint citrus
well i didnt have a US bank in March
vapid jay
stock talk should go to the off-topic channels
mint citrus
cause not living in the US and all that
frozen flame
public utilities that pay a decent dividend are usually a safe better, better than crypto fo sho!
@vapid jay true
neat basin
hey guys! its kinda offtopic question but have some relation 🙂 Can anyone advice me whats would be better to use for create my web-developer CV(resume) ?
neat basin
okay mate thanks for advice 👍
opal perch
Latex would be the best
gilded valley
Some places eplicitly want a .docx version - and in that specific case, latex might cause issues. And if you're end result is a PDF - it's not that big of a difference anyway
marsh wind
yeah latex is awesome but there are some shitty places they want doc 😂
I mean you can always say you don't have it, but yeah. for you first jobs you gotta do whatever it takes to land an interview and etc
after I guess you can start to be picky 🙂
hoary hollow
hi
Can anyone help me make a roadmap in learning python, i want to get a job as a python programmer but i hit a wall, i don't know what i should learn. Until now i did a lot of web crawling/scraping jobs on fiverr, made a bot with a GUI for pokemon-vortex.com and a few smaller projects.
I'm not really into web development, and i am curious what should i learn.
I can do research and learn on my own, all i ask is for some guidance on what i should start learning and what employers ask for.
vast shoal
You're going to have a hard time if you can't see yourself in a web developer role.
Python is mainly used in webdev and data science professionally. There are exceptions, but they are much less common. Data science is not easy to break into through self-teaching.
If you can accept working in webdev, @neon moat's Reddit post might be of interest: https://www.reddit.com/r/learnpython/comments/ctkypf/im_100_self_taught_landed_my_first_job_my/
gilded valley
web dev is by far the biggest place where python gets used for software. In the guise of data science, python is mostly used because it's easiest - but you really don't need particularly advanced python skills for it
coarse jackal
Anybody knows, where could I learn Algorithmics? Some companies requires that in my country
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithmics
gilded valley
over in #algos-and-data-structs there's a pinned link to a course
coarse jackal
Very much thanks @gilded valley
viral ridge
@cinder narwhal can take some courses online and go from there. I only had 1 ML course in uni, and believe i could take the path by self teaching
so many resources available these days
but I suppose also having had courses in statistics and math helped
white karma
The resources are out there but some people can’t self teach very well
I blame the public education system for that more than anything
distant crow
python's relatively popular in robotics as well, don't forget that
while C/C++ is undoubtedly important, when you go higher-level, python is useful. Especially if your robotics also involves computer vision, or AI
ROS (rospy) is quite an important stack in this space
grim star
Is Flask or Django experience asked more for?
gilded valley
Depends on the industry and area. But I think I see Django more than flask
Some fast api recently as well
grim star
@gilded valley which would be a example for each? Thank you. I’m starting out with python now. So, I’m wondering what to start with
lapis wind
Django is very popular because it doesnt require people to be as experienced with python in general
gilded valley
I'm not sure I agree thats the reason why
lapis wind
The framework does all the heavy lifting for you and enforces things that you need to remember with a micro framework
grim star
What parts of “python” do you need to know vs where the Django “starts”?
lapis wind
I wouldn't say its the difference in knowledge between them so much as Layout and general organisation of your code
white karma
Knowing the basics of python helps
grim star
What can django do that flask can’t?
gilded valley
If you're coming into an existing Django application, then really all you need to know on the python side of things are the basic repetition/flow control things (for loops, if statements, functions), and a loose concept of OOP
grim star
@white karma I’m learning it now.... it reminds me of the basics of JavaScript
gilded valley
But to get it right - you need a lot more
white karma
@grim star Never dabbled with JS but the django tutorial I’m watching uses some scripts for webpage layout,
grim star
@gilded valley ok, I know Kivy is desktop. But, it seems more like React with making classes and def are allot like it.
like def button
Text: push
Color: red
gilded valley
Kivy has some similarities to react - but not as many as you might think
orchid breach
Hey guys
grim star
@white karma I’m watching one that used a css/HTML/JS pages, it’s with flask tho
white karma
Neat, I was considering flask but a lot of places in my area use django
lapis wind
Id pick one and go with it
grim star
Should I skip learning Flask and go for Django?
white karma
I’m sticking to django for the job prospect and utility
orchid breach
Guys
lapis wind
Django will force you into some good practices but Flask will also teach you lower level stuff if you use custom Queries etc...
mortal wedge
Just wanted to plug algorithms, having good knowledge of algorithms is great for job interviews
lapis wind
It doesnt take much to learn both tbh
orchid breach
Anyone wanna create a inventory app in python
gilded valley
I'd recommend Django first then flask. Doesnt matter too much though
Just start is what matters
grim star
Learning JavaScript, vanilla JS in a separate sheet as in HTML/css/JS, the extra syntax kinda is annoying vs using JS with React. But, React and Vue add a little sugar to help simplifie it more
Soooo, python and Django.... it seems better than vanilla JS
lapis wind
🤔 I mean theyre diffrent things
Python and Django is your backend
If you're doing raw JS thats front end type stuff
orchid breach
Can html js access a db like postgres and do transactions? @grim star
grim star
Backend....as in “desktop”?
lapis wind
Backend as in the thing which interacts with DB etc...
grim star
@orchid breach idk
lapis wind
Can html js access a db like postgres and do transactions?
No
grim star
@lapis wind like what?
orchid breach
Im learninv flask
And currently building an app
A lite inventory and property management app
Anyone wanna collab?
grim star
@lapis wind like what?
cyan palm
can you get a job with python without a degree?
wispy cape
the impact of degrees change dramatically across countries and the field you want to work in
so, yes, it is possible, but at the same time, depends
lapis wind
@grim star Im not sure what you mean
orchid breach
Shpuld i switch to django
How easy is it
How much bugs does django have compared to flask
lapis wind
Neither frameworks really have any bugs that beginners will come into
Both frameworks are as old as time
The only bug you'll get are the ones you make yourself :P
digital fjord
it can work in win
grim star
Would I be “skipping” anything learning Django first vs flask?
edgy onyx
Nah, go for it if you want to ^^
grim star
@edgy onyx ok. Kivy looks more like JS in a way. Is there a web version?
edgy onyx
No there isn't, Kivy is for making desktop and mobile GUIs :)
grim star
So, Flask basically goes back to rtypical HTML/css or with a framework like bootstrap, but with {} instead of components?
lapis wind
🤔 What
distant crow
flask: APIs and basic web server
django: APIs, ORM, admin panel, templating, MVC
lapis wind
Flask technically has included templating aswell
distant crow
yep
silent haven
blazing dew
!unsilence
inner wrenBOT
✅ unsilenced current channel.
carmine elk
can someone direct me to the help channel or help me rq
im very new to python
and coding in general
and i got this error
and idk why
blazing dew
@carmine elk #❓｜how-to-get-help will probably be your best bet
gilded valley
@vapid jay it's off topic for this channel
chrome star
Hello folks. Anyone available to chat about datascience carrer? I would like to know better how that would work for me.
wispy cape
I misread, just ask your question
chrome star
carrer in datascience. How is the market, jobs...
wispy cape
I mean, depends on the country, in my experience it's ok
I suggest you look on online job boards, and see if there are many jobs offers where you live really
chrome star
Thanks. I currently live in Brazil, but moving to Italy next year.
wispy cape
I can't talk for brazil, but I have several friends that fled Italy because doing research there meant living with min wage
several = 2
chrome star
I still have not decided yet if I'm going to Data Engineering or Business Analysis carrer. I know they are very different but I think both are cool jobs.
Were they living in Italy and moved out? Or just they have never been?
wispy cape
The former
Apparently doing research in the industry can pay decently, but they weren't interested in that
Also if you plan on doing data engineering or BA, I'm guessing this isn't to go into academia nor research
wispy cape
For rough salary estimations and a quick glance at the amount of jobs there are, I use glassdoor or indeed
No clue if it's actually good, and if there is something better
chrome star
Glassdoor is one that I'm browsing
@wispy cape thank you for your time. I'll have a deeper look
vapid jay
Hello guys
mortal wedge
@sweet shore You think so? Glassdoor undervaluing salary predictions. I haven't found anything else that could be used as a resource to gauge that.
gilded valley
glass door is not at all accurate IME
I've seen it regularly be off by massive amounts
and these are for very high volume positions - like graduate roles
sweet shore
Oh yeah, I've put together a salary questionaire for my region that covered a lot of the same things they do (skills, tenure, length of experience) and came up with a general feel that they were about 20-30% light consistently.
gilded valley
huh - I hadn't really thought about it, but yeah, they are consistently light
i'd only ever noticed that they were wildly off
not necessarily that they were wildly under
sweet shore
and what I don't know is how they monetize their job postings ... like ... are they suggesting the lower salary range because they are asking a 20% finders fee? not sure
gilded valley
I don't think they do monetize their job postings
I think they mainly act as a source of data
that you have to pay them to use
notice that they force you to sign up to do anything beyond look at like one salary for one job at one company
sweet shore
true
then yeah, the only other thing I can think is that they are doing a average of all, and unfortunately, there are a lot of companies out there that severly undervalue their talent 🤷
the bay area jobs push the avg higher, but my midwestern region tends to drag them all back down lol
glossy pecan
I feel there's gotta be some companies pushing the averages down on glassdoor, it's never been accurate for me
sweet shore
I would love to build a viable alternative, but I've thought long and hard about how to combat algo manipulation and can't find a good solution that doesn't include an identity verification
and even then, some will go through the hassle and still push the avg one way or the other unrealisticly
glossy pecan
it'd probably be better just to average all advertised salaries in job listings
but of course lots of companies don't advertise salaries
sweet shore
I've always hated that. And any more, I make recruiters or hireing managers tell me what they think I'm worth, rather than the other way around, because that tells me a whole lot more than what they are going to pay me.
Some flat refuse, but I also don't take those jobs lol
If they overshoot by a lot, I will bring them back down, but at least I know they value what I'm bringing
dusty umbra
why would you negotiate for a lower salary?
sweet shore
I use salary to drive other, more valuable to me benefits
glossy pecan
yeah I don't believe it's possible to "overshoot" as long as you are creating value
I believe you should always take as much money as you can, unless they can offer you other equally as valuable benefits (like a shorter working week)
sweet shore
i do typically have an idea in my head what I expect to be paid, but if the salary is a lot hire than that idea, I will use it to get more PTO or whatever
glossy pecan
but personally I'd still take the money
sweet shore
I'm at a point in my career where more money isn't necessarily what I'm after.
usually, i'm after the project now-a-days
if all other benefits are equal except pay, I'm going with the more interesting project rather than the highest paying one
and I recognize my privlidge there
dusty umbra
sounds good to me lol, i just didn't necessarily agree with the idea of a company "overshooting" your value as a hire in general
as a rule, if they offer it first it's under value
but yeah sacrificing pay for better benefits / more interesting work is fine by me
sweet shore
yeah, in my experience having forced companies to give me a number, 95% are way too low, and then I walk ... some will come back with more realistic numbers, but other leave that meeting hoping to find someone who is less sure of themselves
mortal wedge
Companies generally expect qualified candidates to negotiate so I can understand them leading with a lower number
I've been like. "Lol you're kidding, add 20% to that"
"Fine, 15%" "Okay"
woeful spruce
it does suck to go through the interview process only to find out their $$ offer is underwhelming
white karma
I have relatively low expectations for pay given the pandemic
woeful spruce
first question on an application should be expected pay
then we can stop wasting both parties' time 😉
Guess I got luck with my employer. I low-balled myself (was pretty desperate) and the recruiter said I should expect more than that. I was new to the area and thought wages were much lower here.
sweet shore
yeah, not all employeers are going to be jerks, but most are lol
vapid jay
Anyone know what programs are needed to be an app developer?
Like what courses I need to take
wispy cape
you don't need to take any course
any degree closely related to CS can help you get an interview
vapid jay
Ok but what will set me apart from everyone else?
nocturne snow
App as in android/iphone apps? Python might not be the way to go
vapid jay
Okay yeah I’m learning python, r, and sql rn for an anylist job
Analyst
But I’m wondering if I should stop and just try to be an app developer
nocturne snow
Depends on where you are in your career.
Pre-college you can still do whatever you want.
vapid jay
I just graduated college 2 years ago. I have a degree in business marketing
nocturne snow
I paid 120k for my degree, I need to get a job in the field or I've got a problem.
vapid jay
I hate sales and I want to get out of it
nocturne snow
What about applying for an analytics graduate degree?
vapid jay
I thought about that but the more research I’ve done I think I can get a job just by taking these courses
nocturne snow
I really recommend CS50 in that case. It's pretty thorough.
vapid jay
I’m just trying to figure out if learning python sql and r is worth my time if I just want to develop apps
What’s that?
nocturne snow
That way you can figure out if programming is your thing, and this will boost your CV quite a bit.
I completed their AI course, so I do recommend it.
wispy cape
ngl, if i saw someone actively mentioning courses in their resume, i'd think they're just trying to fill empty space
vapid jay
i mean experience seems more valuable
nocturne snow
Courses falls under skills section
wispy cape
not really, imo, but welp, what do i know
nocturne snow
That's what I got taught at Columbia University.
Then again, what do they know, it's mostly just guesswork and optimizing CV to get past the initial check.
vapid jay
i mean having a name does seem pretty nice
Here’s the thing I work for AT&T and I’m applying for another position within AT&T and it’s entry level but they want you to have experience with sql, r, and python. But on the other hand I think I just want to develop apps
So idk if I should just stick with my current position which is fairly easy
So I’d have time to study making apps
like having sth like harvard seems kinda nice ngl
nocturne snow
@vapid jay developing apps isn't really a 'thing' on its own at an AT&T level.
nocturne snow
Well. You need to be able to do full-stack then. That's really really tough
nocturne snow
But I really recommend trying if you think you want to do it.
Front end + back end.
vapid jay
i feel most ppl just do the backend
Trying what?
I’m confused
cuz there is so many services
nocturne snow
Trying to learn how to create an app.
vapid jay
that give u a nice landing page
that all what u really need to do is deal with ur backend
nocturne snow
For instance. You need to create wireframes (e.g. using figma). That's a job by itself (Design + UI)
vapid jay
So career wise I should stick with my current easy job so I can learn how to make apps instead of taking a better paying job within AT&T?
Idk why I’m asking strangers this but I need advice lol
nocturne snow
Then you need to translate wireframes to frontend, that's a job by itself. Add backend (depening on the type of app). release. Do sales. etc.
vapid jay
imo try out some apps on ur free time
What if I wanted to focus on only making prototypes
nocturne snow
@vapid jay what I'm saying is that creating an app that's worth money is a really huge process. An analytics job to get you more familiar with programming might be a great first step.
Prototyping can be done by creating wireframes. For instance, in Adobe XD or Figma.
But that's more a frontend design/UI job which you'll be looking at
You'll be asked the question 'how will users interact with my application, and how do I create intuitive design'?
vapid jay
So basically I Should take the analytics job and just learn how to do Proto types on the side
nocturne snow
You can create a web-app wireframe (non-functional, but it looks like it works) on something like this: https://www.figma.com/. Try it out for a bit, see if you like it.
Adobe XD is an alternative, but Figma seems to be industry standard atm.
vapid jay
Do you have any recommendations on what courses are best for python sql and R?
nocturne snow
Don't learn python and R.
vapid jay
Basically I can make prototypes for a side gig
The job literally says I need to know python and r
For anylist
nocturne snow
That's weird. They should only require one.
vapid jay
I’ll send a pic
nocturne snow
I believe you, but it's just counterintuitive.
Most things in R can be done in Python, and the syntax is quite similar
vapid jay
It’s global connections and supply chain strategy
mortal wedge
https://www.edx.org/course/cs50s-introduction-to-computer-science
@nocturne snow At first I thought you were recommending people take CS550 to see if programming was their thing 😄
wispy cape
What would be wrong with that ?
vapid jay
It says I just need experience with all 3
mortal wedge
550 would be graduate level
wispy cape
oh, i see
vapid jay
So I’m assuming python is the best to learn first
wispy cape
job offers generally list unrealistic needs
nocturne snow
Taylor, for you, yes.
wispy cape
the offers describe the perfect unicorn
nocturne snow
10+ years experience in GO, HTLM6, Swift and python 4.
vapid jay
This is what I’m using to learn
He has videos for all the subjects he teaches online
Jakob will you hire me
Haha
peak lark
10+ years experience in WAIT
wispy cape
(if we ignore that go is like 8 year old or something)
mortal wedge
Surprised to see job postings in Go tbh
wispy cape
why ? it's getting some fair traction in the industry tbh
mortal wedge
Guess it's just not common in the industries I'm a part of
Didn't see any job postings asking for Go when I was searching
lapis wind
Because Go is a bit meh overall tbh
Its great in terms of its a compiled lang that takes no time to compile, easy to read, no borrow checks or that
but it lacks compatibility with anything C based (Yes i know there are things which allow it)
there are also things like Documentation which for alot of libs is awful atm
crude crown
yeah, for medtech you won't find Go at all, it's mostly found in web services shops...
white karma
Prototypes for what
crude crown
also... I'm thinking more of companies that develop SaaS stuff
mortal wedge
Ah, gotcha
Our company is planning to do that, but I'm just doing the backend algorithms, all that other stuff is handled by a different team
@thin flower How are your algorithms? I just interviewed for an algorithm engineer position that uses Python coders for a lot of stuff other languages can't do. I'm also working a Python gig developing/updating algorithms
thin flower
That's pretty dope @mortal wedge I need to refresh on my algorithm skills but should be able to pick up quickly.
summer roost
if you're not into frontend stuff, backend developer roles can pay well.
thin flower
Congrats on your interview
mortal wedge
Thank you.
I hear you though, there's quite a few of us where front end stuff doesn't excite us at all and we live in the backend
thin flower
Yeah, I've just been jumping around different languages and skills
not really specializing in anything
mortal wedge
I specifically work with medical device algos, but facebook, google, uber, netflix, all those cats want to optimize their algorithms
facebook needs better ways to steal your data
mortal wedge
But yeah, all the big FAANG companies pay extremely well
summer roost
finance pays well - banks, hedge funds, analytics, etc.
summer roost
seen https://www.glassdoor.com/ ? That can help you figure out how much various companies pay before you decide whether to apply.
thin flower
thanks @summer roost I am interested in fintech for sure.
but don't know where to start. Never had a job as a programmer, just have done simple projects like CRUDs, Todo apps, websites.... a bunch of tutorials
Just trying to make the transition from hobbie to work
summer roost
doesn't matter much, honestly.
most large companies have a well established pipeline for bringing in new junior developers.
a computer science degree helps, but isn't necessary. To get hired for a junior dev role, you don't need to do too much more than prove that you can decompose a problem into smaller pieces and think your way through it logically.
thin flower
Sounds like something I could do
But just need to find an opportunity.
I'll keep searching, meanwhile if there is any project where I can help or practice please let me know.
Thank you both for the info
mortal wedge
Anytime. Best of luck to you
sour badge
Optimize Algorithms and database are most popular these day for job right ?
summer roost
Depends what level of job. Junior developer, "how would I make this faster" is a pretty good question. Maybe something about databases, but for a junior that will probably be about queries and joins rather than about schema design
One of my favorite junior developer questions is to take the two languages the candidate knows best and ask them to tell me how they're similar and how they're different
stone estuary
What would be a good answer for java and python? Seems like the response could go on and on.
wide needle
a response that can go on and on is usually a good signal they the candidate has sufficient depth to talk a lot about a topic
stone estuary
Fair enough
dry sapphire
hm I would probably talk about how they're both compiled to bytecode but have different execution strategies (JIT for Java) and relate this to static vs dynamic typing
some stuff about syntax (IMO Python is a lot less verbose and susceptible to "clever" coding)
stone estuary
class Response {
public static void main(String[] args) {
System.out.println("Verbose!?!?? What are you talking about?");
}
}
although to be fair Java has come a long way recently
summer roost
Yep, all of that. The fact that Python doesn't have primitives and Java does is something I'd love to hear talked about, too
"everything is an object" vs "most things are objects"
Both are GC'd, but they use different strategies
Python has a GIL, Java has fine grained locking around each piece of state shared between threads...
etc. It's not something I want to spend 45 minutes talking about, but if your answer is "Java uses braces and Python uses indentation", and that's as deep as you can go, we're not starting off on the best foot.
I know a guy who interviews web devs, who says his favorite question is "tell me everything that happens after I type 'google.com' into a web browser and hit enter" - not because he only wants people who can answer that in complete detail, but because it gives a very good, very quick overview of all of their networking knowledge, and has nearly unlimited potential for diving in deeper. That actually is a question you could spend 45 minutes on.
stone estuary
Yeah, you could go pretty deep fairly quickly. End up getting lost on just the DNS request hitting the layer 3 switches before finding BGP routes.
TCP encapsulation even...
I think I'd ask how detailed they are wanting to discuss before diving in.
mortal wedge
Since I've been grilled on DSA in interviews, I think I'd return the favor out of spite 😄
true harness
nooooooo, no more dsa
i'd rather be questioned on something pertinent to the actual job
wide needle
the problem with the everything after typing google.com question is that it's very well known at this point. so maybe places ask it and there are very very detailed writeups on that question
i was actually asked that when i interviewed at youtube and it was asked at dropbox for a while too. i still think it's a decent question. it's a bit hard to fake it and where people focus tells you a lot about their experience but it's a very common question at this point
i'd feel like i was cheating if i got asked that in an interview now because i've asked it so many times myself in the past 😄
true harness
hypothetically, if i was asked a question that i knew the solution to, should i say so
upbeat elm
warped lava
not using firefox then I take?
(or the poorman's version: using different browser for different purpose)
waxen matrix
Anybody in need of a virtual assistant?
vast shoal
@waxen matrix If you're looking for a job, we don't allow recruitment on this server, see the channel topic.
gilded valley
@vapid jay advertising isn't allowed here
you very obviously are
that's
that's advertising
Thanks - it's usually best to read channel topics/rules first - they make it pretty clear that that kind of advertising/recruitment isn't allowed here
no
nowhere is correct to request staff from
because this server doesn't currently facilitate that
vast shoal
@vapid jay In any case, now you know.
Recruitment = requesting staff, and it's not allowed on this server.
mellow agate
!tempban 682121013047328795 1y Sorry, you must be over 13 to be in this community.
inner wrenBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @near lagoon until 2021-08-05 14:21 (11 months and 30 days).
gilded valley
I understand you have to - but it always makes me sad to see someone banned for age stuff
mellow agate
it's super stict stuff unfortunately. can't mess with COPPA/etc
mortal wedge
hypothetically, if i was asked a question that i knew the solution to, should i say so
@true harness
Yes, you should, for a few reasons. 1) Honesty points, shows integrity, etc. etc. 2) If you just start writing the solution to a problem, it's going to be really obvious to a trained interviewer and they'll just mark the question invalid anyways. 3) If you try to make it seem like you don't know the answer but you start solving it out anyway, you run the risk of overcompensating and being too slow.
opal perch
I dont even know why you'd mention that you are under 13, honestly I learnt quite young that you just don't mention your age if you're like under 16, people just frown upon you or something
vapid jay
Whats more in demand, desktop app dev or website devs
opal perch
probably web
vapid jay
By a lot?
gilded valley
@opal perch how old are you? 16?
@vapid jay yes by a lot, backend web dev is essentially what drives most apps anyway
distant crow
for python, I'm not sure desktop app dev is in as much demand
certainly not as much as web backend
gilded valley
I'm assuming they mean mobile app dev - it seems to me that desktop app dev is an absolutely tiny field now
mortal wedge
^
But I think they meant desktop app dev, lol
Desktop apps can still be useful, but they're generally an in-house thing at that point, not a commercial product
gilded valley
oh
my brain literally just ignored the word "desktop"
despite the fact I read it like 4 times
mortal wedge
hah
gilded valley
at this point, I'd guess python for desktop is <1% of the python market
shadow moss
I've been involved in C# programming, Desktop is still tiny part of the market even in house
everyone wants browser
sick stratus
I'm having trouble understanding the role of a Python software engineer. It seems like something interesting to me from what I've read, however, I'm having trouble understanding requirements/general knowledge for software engineering.
I've looked at other python career options, but none seemed to interest me and I'd like to check that my understanding of software engineering is correct.
My understanding of a software engineer is that it is someone who works on the backend, does some devops, and writes more general-purpose code.
For example in my case, I enjoy making apis (but no frontend/design), building command-line applications, doing image recognition, and web scraping. Does this sound like something that would be looked for in a software engineer? If not, which "field" of Python as a career does this fall under?
mortal wedge
software engineer can absolutely refer to front end stuff
sweet shore
@sick stratus software engineering is way more broad than that. Python is just a tool. The general idea of a software engineer is solving problems with software, and doing so in a way that is maintainable and observable
sick stratus
I see. But does it encompass backend and the apis/scraping/general "behind the hood" stuff?
sweet shore
It encompasses everything lol
vast shoal
It's basically "programmer" with some bells and whistles.
mortal wedge
software engineer means you're a badass and will get paid more 😄
vast shoal
A software engineer is expected to have a bit broader experience base than just programming.
sick stratus
I see. Is there some sort of more specific category or is it just on a specific company-by-company basis as to what you're expected to know?
vast shoal
@sick stratus In my experience, you're expected to be able to learn to do whatever is needed, but you usually end up spending the majority of your time working on one or a few parts.
distant crow
there's some debate over what the term "engineer" means in software engineer. some people would say that you'd need formal training to call yourself an "engineer". others would say all professional programmers are also software engineers. There's quite a big disagreement over it, though I would suggest it's not a useful disagreement to have
vast shoal
It's not really acceptable to say "I refuse to work in the frontend", but if you're better at backend stuff, you usually end up doing that more.
sick stratus
Thanks for the tip @vast shoal . Are there any "parts" more in demand then others or something that I should focus on? Because before it was said that this is a very general field, in which case I don't know what to focus on.
distant crow
in terms of skills, it's both: you'd be expected to know the core syntax and features of python and some common patterns and libraries; the more senior you are, then the more specialized you will get, and companies will begin to look for people with specific knowledge of specific technologies and libraries
vast shoal
Web developers are always in demand, and if you learn to work with one or a few common stacks, you can usually get hired even by companies using other stacks, because there are sufficient similarities that you can be expected to learn what you need on the job.
Where a stack refers to a specific set of technologies necessary to build and run a web app.
distant crow
I suggest you focus on what interests you the most; and if you don't know, explore some things before you do
sick stratus
Thing is that when I've been looking at the career paths (AI, frontend web dev, data science, data analysis, etc.) none have seemed very interesting - I'd essentially like to continue doing the general purpose backend code which is used for when you learn Python or work on personal projects.
distant crow
I'm not sure there's such a career as "general purpose backend"
mortal wedge
The stuff that's going to be most in demand are the stuff that Python does that is hard to find other tools for.
sick stratus
Exactly the reason I was asking the software engineering question. @distant crow
Or at least I'm missing some other field of Python that isn't one of the above listed.
distant crow
if you don't have a preference, then I'm not sure anyone can help suggest which you should pick. Unless you want to just pick based on salaries, but I'm not sure that's the best idea
mortal wedge
I use Python for algorithmic work.
distant crow
you're kind of asking "what should I be interested in?"
mortal wedge
That's pretty backend
vast shoal
@sick stratus Whatever system you build needs a purpose, so you're going to have to choose something specific to work on.
Fintech pays well, so maybe look into that if you have no clue whatsoever.
sick stratus
you're kind of asking "what should I be interested in?"
@distant crow no, although in retrospect it may sound like that. I was just wondering if there was something in addition to
- web dev (frontend, styling) ❎
- data analysis (graphs all day) ❎
- data science (maths and arrays) ❎
and software engineering seemed to be the most reasonable, what with what I read it encompassing most backend web development, general purpose, etc. I wanted to affirm this or see if there was something I was missing.
mortal wedge
Fintech and FAANG
Software engineering does cover general purpose, I think the confusion is that most companies will generally focus you on a specific purpose
sick stratus
Simply put what "category" does backend and general knowledge fall under specifically?
mortal wedge
I'd say software engineer
Yeah, there's webdev backend, there's device backend, there's computational server backend, etc. etc.
sick stratus
I'd say software engineer
@mortal wedge
It encompasses everything lol
So I'm looking to see if there's anything I should focus on.
mortal wedge
Looking to focus on for the purpose of getting interviews? For doing well in jobs? For uh... personal fulfilliment?
distant crow
patterns, libraries, frameworks, architectures
sick stratus
or roadmap or need-to-know or something
Looking to focus on for the purpose of getting interviews? For getting jobs? For uh... personal fulfilliment?
@mortal wedge well for personal fulfillment and as a job
although the latter is more important 🙂
mortal wedge
I recommend scanning through job postings that look interesting to you and seeing what they want you to know/have. If you're lucky, they'll list specific Python frameworks/libraries they want you to be able to work with.
A lot of it is going to come down to which industry you want to be a part of, which is another discussion in and of itself.
sick stratus
is there some roadmap or subfields I should know of?
distant crow
let me throw you a curveball, and talk about some of the career options for python devs that don't come up as much:
- Robotics
- Production Pipelines and other kinds of data pipelines
sick stratus
👀 thanks for listing but I still think software engineering sounds the most appealing
distant crow
those don't relate
you can be a software engineer working in robotics. You can be a software engineer working in web backends
sick stratus
hmm well my understanding of this isn't the best.
mortal wedge
For basic stuff, in order to find a job in software engineering you want to have your data structures and algorithms down
gilded valley
software engineering just refers to someone building a system with code - data scientists/analysts/engineers are often doing software engineering tasks as part of their job for example
mortal wedge
and your basic comp sci fundamentals like big O notation, basic design patterns
gilded valley
That's not really true. Dsalg stuff and compsci stuff isn't the same as what you need for software engineering
sick stratus
software engineering just refers to someone building a system with code - data scientists/analysts/engineers are often doing software engineering tasks as part of their job for example
@gilded valley Thank you. So I should take a look at "software engineering subfields?"
mortal wedge
I mentioned in order to find a job
mortal wedge
Okay, fair
gilded valley
You only really need that stuff for FAANG larger corps, and some kinds of startup
a lot of places might skip the dsalgy interviews
distant crow
big O definitely comes up more in interviews than actual development
gilded valley
I know tonnes of people who landed jobs that couldn't tell you the time complexity of searching a list - I think it depends on the kind of job (and whether it's a job in a tech hub city)
distant crow
but, like with a lot of programming, knowing it well makes you a better programmer, even if you don't use it the vast majority of the time
same can be said for functional programming and several other things like that
at least in Python
if you were doing JS, FP becomes more important because it's just used more
mortal wedge
^
gilded valley
I really should take the time to learn core FP principles. I do a lot of JS and enjoy the functional aspects of it, but I really don't have any grasp on the theory of things
I just use lambdas everywhere because that's what the cool kids do
mortal wedge
It’s fun stuff imo
distant crow
using JS definitely helped me do more FP in python
gilded valley
arrow functions in JS and Kotlin's lamdas feel so natural
I much prefer map and filter to list comprehensions in Python
distant crow
@sick stratus I guess worry less about what these things are called, learn the fundamentals, learn common patterns, learn common libraries, and then look into specific libraries and frameworks for specific python tasks like web backend; data science; etc. etc.
sick stratus
@distant crow yes thing is I've been using Python for a while and I have a good grasp of it, I just don't know what to learn/focus on now specifically
gilded valley
learning Django/Flask is a pretty solid step
they're used in tonnes of the sub fields
or can be used
distant crow
are you clear on, let's say, singletons, factories, observer patterns, and all that?
got your linked lists, trees, and various kinds of graph traversal/search down?
sick stratus
are you clear on, let's say, singletons, factories, observer patterns, and all that?
@distant crow OK well maybe not that, but yes for general data structures, linked lists, classes, decorators, etc.
I'd say I'm intermediate, I've used Python for a year or so
and some other langs
so at the advanced stage this is where I'd start looking into what to focus on, since Python is such a vast language
gilded valley
How old are you? Are you a student, planning to be a student, wanting to shift careers?
sick stratus
imo it's better to learn some libraries than immutable dictionaries, etc.
How old are you? Are you a student, planning to be a student, wanting to shift careers?
@gilded valley I'm a high school student.
gilded valley
What do you study?
distant crow
it's hard to judge when someone says "a few years" because a few years as a student using python on the side while studying is not the same as a few years working full time using python