#career-advice | Python | Page 357

warped crypt Jul 27, 2020, 9:44 PM

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it is, but i'm planning on changing once all of the pandemic stuffs over, want to have a bit of a change - just not sure where to yet

dark jay Jul 27, 2020, 9:45 PM

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and still 5-10 years ..... when I see how slow Europe is in implemantation, adapting rules to the future... I'm not scared about automation

short crow Jul 27, 2020, 9:45 PM

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well, at my job, I am involved in engineering of solutions for problems of realizing a product, which will be intended for consumption by a targeted individual, who will benefit from said product, but at a price.

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That is as much as I can say.

woeful spruce Jul 27, 2020, 9:46 PM

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I just build decision tress because our products are complicated

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and we graphically represent that product because we do made-to-order

dark jay Jul 27, 2020, 9:47 PM

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but the funniest thing.....

woeful spruce Jul 27, 2020, 9:47 PM

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a lot of complicated companies out there

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with lots of choices for their customers

dark jay Jul 27, 2020, 9:47 PM

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I automate my position at previous company and I lost my job 🙂

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but that's how I started my coding journey 😄

woeful spruce Jul 27, 2020, 9:48 PM

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I heard about a guy who automated his job but didn't tell his company for 5 years

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it really is a moral dilemma

short crow Jul 27, 2020, 9:48 PM

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lol, reminds me of the illustration of a dope sawing off a branch he is sitting on @dark jay

woeful spruce Jul 27, 2020, 9:49 PM

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I mean what does one do in that situation

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they deserve a promotion if anything

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but they aren't needed in that role anymore

short crow Jul 27, 2020, 9:49 PM

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lol, thats supposedly a true story; guy was a software engineer as well

woeful spruce Jul 27, 2020, 9:49 PM

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...however the automation needs maintenance at some point

warped crypt Jul 27, 2020, 9:49 PM

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you don't tell.. and you write your software so that it costs more to teach someone else how to maintain.. job for life

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it's basically tenure

woeful spruce Jul 27, 2020, 9:49 PM

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unfortunately, I agree with Firestorm

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employers don't get into the weeds

short crow Jul 27, 2020, 9:50 PM

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heres the article @woeful spruce

interestingengineering.com/programmer-automates-job-6-years-boss-fires-finds

woeful spruce Jul 27, 2020, 9:50 PM

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it is about getting things done in a timely manner

dark jay Jul 27, 2020, 9:50 PM

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but I haven't write it 🙂

woeful spruce Jul 27, 2020, 9:50 PM

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thanks @short crow

warped crypt Jul 27, 2020, 9:50 PM

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A busineess isn't your friend, they are just using you, so if you get the chance to use them you take it 🙂

woeful spruce Jul 27, 2020, 9:50 PM

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"I love my employer"

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(in case they read this)

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actually I have no ill-will towards them

warped crypt Jul 27, 2020, 9:51 PM

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me neither, but point still stands

short crow Jul 27, 2020, 9:51 PM

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lol @warped crypt you have not had a big dev team in your life, I see

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your point is mute, due to the 4 eyes principle

woeful spruce Jul 27, 2020, 9:52 PM

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that engineer that automated his job in 8 months....why just do nothing after? Build on that

short crow Jul 27, 2020, 9:53 PM

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but, the full story is, he hired freelancers to do his job

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her was still managing them

woeful spruce Jul 27, 2020, 9:53 PM

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also sounds like the boss should be fired, this didn't need to be a full-time position if it could get automate din 8 months

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oh I see

dark jay Jul 27, 2020, 9:53 PM

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I'm no sorry to lost my job. I have found one in two days after, more chalanging but that was funny stories where you read about automation and you realized that you are purely example of it 😄

warped crypt Jul 27, 2020, 9:53 PM

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@short crow I'm not saying it's possible to automate your job without anyone knowing, you'd take it

short crow Jul 27, 2020, 9:53 PM

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but sooner or later (reportedly in 8 months) he managed to develop a self managing workgroup

warped crypt Jul 27, 2020, 9:54 PM

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i missed a sentence apparantly xD

woeful spruce Jul 27, 2020, 9:54 PM

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this article didn't mention outsourcing

warped crypt Jul 27, 2020, 9:54 PM

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without anyone knowing, but if you could you'd take it

short crow Jul 27, 2020, 9:54 PM

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@warped crypt oh yeah man, I am taking it, I'm an engineer

woeful spruce Jul 27, 2020, 9:54 PM

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and if he did, he deserves to get canned

short crow Jul 27, 2020, 9:55 PM

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but I do it in my free time for my own entreprise

woeful spruce Jul 27, 2020, 9:55 PM

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I have never outsourced any of my work, that just feels wrong as an employee

short crow Jul 27, 2020, 9:56 PM

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oh @woeful spruce sorry, that was the rwong article, lool

fervent hamlet Jul 27, 2020, 9:56 PM

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because it is

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unethical

short crow Jul 27, 2020, 9:56 PM

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this reads like poof

warped crypt Jul 27, 2020, 9:56 PM

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i'd say ethically grey 😉

short crow Jul 27, 2020, 9:57 PM

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@woeful spruce https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2013/01/16/169528579/outsourced-employee-sends-own-job-to-china-surfs-web?t=1595886813205

NPR.org

Outsourced: Employee Sends Own Job To China; Surfs Web

What began as a company's suspicion that its infrastructure was being hacked turned into a case of a worker outsourcing his own job to a Chinese consulting firm, according to reports that cite an investigation by Verizon's security team. The man was earning a six-figure salary.

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damn, here it is

fervent hamlet Jul 27, 2020, 9:57 PM

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it is completely unethical

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would you outsource a professional interview?

warped crypt Jul 27, 2020, 9:57 PM

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o outsourcing.

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o yeah that's completely unethical

woeful spruce Jul 27, 2020, 9:58 PM

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thanks @short crow , you are quite resourceful

short crow Jul 27, 2020, 9:58 PM

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they dont call us very well payed google users for nothing ;P

woeful spruce Jul 27, 2020, 9:58 PM

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ahaha

fervent hamlet Jul 27, 2020, 9:58 PM

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wtf 6 figure salary and he's outsourcing

woeful spruce Jul 27, 2020, 9:59 PM

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sounds like he got greedy

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yikes

📎 unknown.png

warped crypt Jul 27, 2020, 10:00 PM

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6 figure and outsourcing... that's basically just a CEO

woeful spruce Jul 27, 2020, 10:00 PM

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haha

short crow Jul 27, 2020, 10:00 PM

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well, developer jobs pay that, especially in the financial sector

woeful spruce Jul 27, 2020, 10:00 PM

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he might've got more people fired after they saw how good his code was

short crow Jul 27, 2020, 10:01 PM

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lol x)

warped crypt Jul 27, 2020, 10:01 PM

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o yeah, if you want money just fintech for a few years

woeful spruce Jul 27, 2020, 10:01 PM

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'Ok we are outsourcing to china....'

short crow Jul 27, 2020, 10:01 PM

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it mostly goes to show how shit software engineering in finance is ;D

warped crypt Jul 27, 2020, 10:01 PM

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sell your soul doing it as mwell

woeful spruce Jul 27, 2020, 10:01 PM

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https://www.reddit.com/r/talesfromtechsupport/comments/32uzrk/my_first_day_on_the_job_and_i_accidentally_got/

r/talesfromtechsupport - My first day on the job, and I accidentall...

5,369 votes and 683 comments so far on Reddit

warped crypt Jul 27, 2020, 10:01 PM

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(no offence to any fintech people xD)

short crow Jul 27, 2020, 10:01 PM

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but, this is 2013 article

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much has changed since, I bet

fervent hamlet Jul 27, 2020, 10:02 PM

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mfw trying to get into fintech

woeful spruce Jul 27, 2020, 10:02 PM

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fintech is an awful industry to work in

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I worked for one. It is like working for a risky startup.

dark jay Jul 27, 2020, 10:02 PM

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guys thank for nice chat! Have a nice days/evenings !

short crow Jul 27, 2020, 10:03 PM

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same bart, hope you got some career orientation from this 😄

warped crypt Jul 27, 2020, 10:03 PM

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tbh most fintech companies in the UK are a millionaire trust fund kid with a 'great idea to play the stock market using machine learning' that's going to crash in a year because it's practically impossible

short crow Jul 27, 2020, 10:04 PM

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the real business is catering to fintech companies, kids...

fervent hamlet Jul 27, 2020, 10:04 PM

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it could crash tomorrow for all i care, i just wanna get paid lmao

short crow Jul 27, 2020, 10:04 PM

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and with this, i bid farewell

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(buy bitcoin)

warped crypt Jul 27, 2020, 10:04 PM

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mixed with jp morgan and some banking

dark jay Jul 27, 2020, 10:06 PM

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yes. @short crow for me the most important thing is just to confirm that I'm on the right path. Everynoe has own pace to jump in. My maybe has to be a little slower.

fervent hamlet Jul 27, 2020, 10:07 PM

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Even well established finance related companies have shit or non existing standards for software development

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Have a friend working for UBS as a model validation officer and the shit she tells me they do is just...

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Sad

short crow Jul 27, 2020, 10:10 PM

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@fervent hamlet like, you mean the software/platform they develop in house is shit?

fervent hamlet Jul 27, 2020, 10:11 PM

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Yea

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I thought a banking giant would have some sort of standard

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These guys write models, webapps, this and that

shadow moss Jul 27, 2020, 10:13 PM

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nah

short crow Jul 27, 2020, 10:14 PM

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oh damn, yeah I heard that before... but I heard it more in relation to companies working in any of the big industries

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like, automotive, coal mining, oil, finance, arms, etc.

fervent hamlet Jul 27, 2020, 10:17 PM

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when she first joined them as a junior member there were no branch restrictions for her on github

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she could commit, push, merge code straight into master without any supervisor checking in

short crow Jul 27, 2020, 10:18 PM

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nice x) did she get master database write access though 👀

fervent hamlet Jul 27, 2020, 10:18 PM

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she could literally drop their whole db if she wanted

short crow Jul 27, 2020, 10:19 PM

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oh, what, they didnt do reviews but had CD? maaan, sounds like a blast

fervent hamlet Jul 27, 2020, 10:21 PM

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its actually wild how fintech operates

peak drum Jul 27, 2020, 10:25 PM

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My Excel spreadsheets smell of rich mahogany

jagged grove Jul 27, 2020, 11:03 PM

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Hey all! I am looking for someone to help out my team. Looking for a fulltime backend engineer with mobile + python experience based in NYC. If you are interested feel free to ping me 🙂 happy to chat more

distant crow Jul 27, 2020, 11:10 PM

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don't make us tap the sign

willow sable Jul 27, 2020, 11:56 PM

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looking for someone to interview prep with, gonna do a zero to hero, as long as you know the basics i don't mind teaching

meager blade Jul 28, 2020, 4:12 AM

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@willow sable i couldnt complete understand what u just said

wide needle Jul 28, 2020, 4:12 AM

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i think they're offering to help interview prep with someone

meager blade Jul 28, 2020, 4:13 AM

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oh like a bootcamp but why an entire prep session though

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i wonder how that would help him

verbal python Jul 28, 2020, 4:53 AM

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Hi guys, do you have PCAP certf?

raw lark Jul 28, 2020, 5:21 AM

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Hi @jagged grove I don't have much experience but really want to work on this

blazing dew Jul 28, 2020, 5:23 AM

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@jagged grove Sorry, we don't allow recruitement on this server.

wild radish Jul 28, 2020, 6:50 AM

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!f-string

tender thicket Jul 28, 2020, 6:51 AM

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@wild radish #bot-commands is perhaps a better place for that

mortal wedge Jul 28, 2020, 6:51 AM

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I should use f-strings more often. I always use str.format

dapper pagoda Jul 28, 2020, 7:04 AM

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@mortal wedge Yeah I believe f-strings are the way to go and they are much faster

mortal wedge Jul 28, 2020, 7:05 AM

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I think it just feels weird to me, because I can't really think of anything else in python like it

kindred pumice Jul 28, 2020, 7:34 AM

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@fervent hamlet Imo the issue I see is that jobs are getting easier to do as time goes on which makes it only easier and easier to outsource. An old school engineer in the 70's might get like 200 recorded data points, and he'll apply equations to them and crunch the numbers by hand. He gets paid for his technical expertise in what equation the data needs, then processing that data manually, and interpreting all of that to give a result. Now today I can just copy paste a bunch of values into an excel sheet, drag down the formula and have it generate several graphs all within a few minutes. Should an engineer get paid the same amount if his work has gone from taking him/her 5 hours to basically a few minutes of drag and drop?

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That's the same issue I see with the CS field anyways. The barrier for entry is getting lower and lower and more tools and libraries are coming out to streamline the process. You're not paying people for a custom implementation for webpage scaling and centering with compatibility for different aspect ratios/devices when libraries exist that can just automatically center and readjust the size of elements by just adding a keyword to HTML.

jagged grove Jul 28, 2020, 2:47 PM

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@blazing dew - Hi - I wasnt actually trying to recruit, just asking for guidance on where i can connect with python engineers who might be on the market.

viral ridge Jul 28, 2020, 3:42 PM

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"f you are interested feel free to ping me"

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clearly.

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you didn't know, fair enough

storm tangle Jul 28, 2020, 4:07 PM

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does anyone know if its worth applying as entry level right now, all things considered, it seems hopeless

viral ridge Jul 28, 2020, 4:13 PM

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How so? I mean, I struggle with a disability and can manage. I see graduates getting jobs. But obviously, the pandemic have had an impact on the job market

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Point being, nothing's hopeless, never give up:)

sullen osprey Jul 28, 2020, 5:11 PM

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Iw ant to create a cv

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So iwas wondering is putyin udemy courses in that as certificates

mortal wedge Jul 28, 2020, 5:24 PM

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@storm tangle There are jobs, but they're a lot harder to get and it's going to be harder on your self-esteem mental health when applying now. Of course, being unemployed for long periods of time is also hard on your self-esteem and mental health.

orchid marten Jul 28, 2020, 5:29 PM

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@storm tangle There are jobs, but they're a lot harder to get and it's going to be harder on your self-esteem mental health when applying now. Of course, being unemployed for long periods of time is also hard on your self-esteem and mental health.
@mortal wedge
If that ain't the truth, nothing like feeling unworthy

storm tangle Jul 28, 2020, 5:31 PM

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thanks guys, but it looks impossible from what im seeing and hearing

orchid marten Jul 28, 2020, 5:31 PM

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That's the same issue I see with the CS field anyways. The barrier for entry is getting lower and lower and more tools and libraries are coming out to streamline the process. You're not paying people for a custom implementation for webpage scaling and centering with compatibility for different aspect ratios/devices when libraries exist that can just automatically center and readjust the size of elements by just adding a keyword to HTML.
@kindred pumice
Why is this an issue? Because things are easier, we can focus on harder problems

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Instead of spending 6 hours resizing, we can spend 2 hours resizing, 4 hours on integrating new features

mortal wedge Jul 28, 2020, 5:33 PM

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It's not impossible, it's just very hard.

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But it's not the worst idea to focus on learning/self-development

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The trick I did was do keep learning and improving myself and go for a job a step above entry level

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and then just work my tail off to keep my job, haha

storm tangle Jul 28, 2020, 5:40 PM

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I would say its just hard over all, and of course the difficulty is just concentrated on the entry level end- and now more than ever, as was said earlier , its easier to get into the field and more and more people are hopping on "the bandwagon" for lack of a better term ,

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it seems like its gonna be a rough two years until the economy picks back up

mortal wedge Jul 28, 2020, 5:43 PM

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The entire job market just really sucks in the US right now and it has started impacting developers too

willow sable Jul 28, 2020, 5:45 PM

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looking for someone to interview prep with, gonna do a zero to hero, as long as you know the basics i don't mind teaching

deep pasture Jul 28, 2020, 5:46 PM

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i am in

vapid jay Jul 28, 2020, 6:06 PM

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I can recommend https://academy.ivanontech.com/a/30998/8iuQMawF for anyone who's interested in Blockchain. It's a free webinar with a PDF as well

Webinar

peak halo Jul 28, 2020, 6:59 PM

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Anyone happen to know if data science hiring is down?

gilded valley Jul 28, 2020, 7:00 PM

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what do you mean by hiring down?

marsh wind Jul 28, 2020, 7:00 PM

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Wouldn't seem so

peak halo Jul 28, 2020, 7:00 PM

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If companies that hire data scientists are still in hiring freezes, etc.

gilded valley Jul 28, 2020, 7:00 PM

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also - data science is kinda like software, where it depends a lot on specific industries whether it's doing well

marsh wind Jul 28, 2020, 7:00 PM

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Like I know our company is looking for one now

peak halo Jul 28, 2020, 7:01 PM

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I have two competing theories about how covid might affect CS hiring going forward

gilded valley Jul 28, 2020, 7:01 PM

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I imagine Google, Twitter, or Pfizer is hiring data scientists - and I assume Easyjet isn't

marsh wind Jul 28, 2020, 7:01 PM

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And LinkedIn keeps sending me things automatically and there are no less job listings

gilded valley Jul 28, 2020, 7:02 PM

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It's pretty difficult to gauge this stuff with just anecdotal evidence IMO

peak halo Jul 28, 2020, 7:02 PM

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I had one friend graduate this year and her job offer was rescinded.

gilded valley Jul 28, 2020, 7:02 PM

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the LI stuff could just mean that the cost of advertising on LinkedIn is lower

marsh wind Jul 28, 2020, 7:02 PM

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EasyJet no but it's likely counterbalanced by some industries that rise

gilded valley Jul 28, 2020, 7:02 PM

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I've heard the same thing from a few different people @peak halo

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@marsh wind yeah, that was my point about Pfizer or whoever - companies that are doing well are probably not cutting their hiring

marsh wind Jul 28, 2020, 7:03 PM

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And I know other guy who got hired

gilded valley Jul 28, 2020, 7:03 PM

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but as a market trend, covid has negatively impacted revenue

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and they'll be looking to cut costs

marsh wind Jul 28, 2020, 7:03 PM

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And he got kind of oral offer before Locdown, then two months of silence

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And a real offer

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For sure market overall is going down

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But things like Data science and web dev are probably among the least suffering fields

gilded valley Jul 28, 2020, 7:04 PM

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If I was a betting man (I mean, I am - I just can't bet on this stuff), I'd bet that hiring is overall down for data science

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and down a pretty substantial extent

marsh wind Jul 28, 2020, 7:06 PM

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I guess it's true for fresh grads especially

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Less internships implicitly might lead to decrease in hiring fresh out of internship people

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And companies would be more wary to hire someone who didn't do internship even if it was a covid as reason

mortal wedge Jul 28, 2020, 7:13 PM

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Yeah, it blows to be a fresh grad right now

peak halo Jul 28, 2020, 7:21 PM

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There was actually a walk-in-hour like zoom session with the career advisors for my school just now. They said that data science students have been the least affected so far, but companies that do data science for tourism and retail have been hurt.

shadow moss Jul 28, 2020, 7:22 PM

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I could see Data science getting cut, analyzing data is important but if company can't react on that data, it doesn't matter

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and companies are just not hiring in general

frosty cove Jul 28, 2020, 7:56 PM

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Is it really on the move?

crude crown Jul 28, 2020, 8:07 PM

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all tech hiring is down in general Stelercus.

willow sable Jul 28, 2020, 8:27 PM

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What are you guys talking about tech is not down it’s booming

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There is almost nobody on this server that actually works as a dev

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If you need help finding a job and you’re in norcal I can put you in touch with recruiters but be prepared for a very tough interview

gilded valley Jul 28, 2020, 8:28 PM

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i mean - at least two of the people here in the last 10 or so messages I'm 100% sure works full time in tech

willow sable Jul 28, 2020, 8:29 PM

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In California?

gilded valley Jul 28, 2020, 8:29 PM

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what on earth makes you think we're talking about California?

willow sable Jul 28, 2020, 8:29 PM

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There are two types of jobs in SE jobs in norcal and job everywhere else

gilded valley Jul 28, 2020, 8:30 PM

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There is almost nobody on this server that actually works as a dev
@willow sable
That's just very obviously wrong and pretty damn arrogant

viral ridge Jul 28, 2020, 8:30 PM

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^

marsh wind Jul 28, 2020, 8:30 PM

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Yeah California is just a part of the big world even tho it's a big hub

gilded valley Jul 28, 2020, 8:30 PM

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practically no one here cares about California

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I'm EU based and have no urge to jump into the dumpsterfire that is the US

willow sable Jul 28, 2020, 8:31 PM

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Wtf is arrogant about that what you guys are posting is simply inaccurate and I can can easily get peeps interviews

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You yourself sound super arrogant

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I have worked in cali and out of cali and I can tell you it’s different worlds

gilded valley Jul 28, 2020, 8:31 PM

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it's arrogant because you're stating something that's incorrect, that you have no basis for saying, about a server on which you have 35 messages

willow sable Jul 28, 2020, 8:32 PM

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The level of competition the availability of jobs and the compensation are in different worlds

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“I'm EU based and have no urge to jump into the dumpsterfire that is the US”

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That’s arrogant

marsh wind Jul 28, 2020, 8:32 PM

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You might be not aware but there is big chunk of people from Europe here. If I have to bet more than 50% imo

gilded valley Jul 28, 2020, 8:33 PM

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dumpsterfire bit is a semi-jokey take, but the core point is that I don't want to move to the US

willow sable Jul 28, 2020, 8:33 PM

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Right hence why they feel a squeeze that doesn’t really exist here

gilded valley Jul 28, 2020, 8:33 PM

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and from what I see, this server is predominantly European

marsh wind Jul 28, 2020, 8:33 PM

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And many of them are SE, data scientist, analysts, devops and etx

hollow locust Jul 28, 2020, 8:33 PM

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tbf comparing compensation in us/cal in general vs eu 1:1 is just not a reasonable thing to do

willow sable Jul 28, 2020, 8:34 PM

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The level of work competition complexity is also different

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They don’t just pay for no reason

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The jobs and interviews are really tough

marsh wind Jul 28, 2020, 8:34 PM

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Imo we should not go down the Cal/US vs EU road.

willow sable Jul 28, 2020, 8:34 PM

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The people you work with are very smart

gilded valley Jul 28, 2020, 8:34 PM

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it's not a particularly interesting discussion to me - nor relevant to what came before. So I agree @marsh wind

willow sable Jul 28, 2020, 8:35 PM

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I’m not talking to you charlie you’re far too arrogant

marsh wind Jul 28, 2020, 8:35 PM

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It usually don't well 😂 there are reasons why some people would bloom in US work culture and environment and others detest

gilded valley Jul 28, 2020, 8:35 PM

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all tech hiring is down in general Stelercus.
That's the case for what I see. I know quite a few people have just elected to do masters instead of looking for jobs right now

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too much of a clusterfuck for grads

willow sable Jul 28, 2020, 8:35 PM

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Tech hiring in California is UP

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If you need help getting an interview I will put you in touch with a recruiter

marsh wind Jul 28, 2020, 8:38 PM

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Good for California 🤷‍♂️

hollow locust Jul 28, 2020, 8:38 PM

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the actual 5Head move is for people to get a job based in cali with that salary but live remote in europe and get free healthcare and stuff

willow sable Jul 28, 2020, 8:40 PM

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Most tech companies give you zero cost insurance

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In cali

hollow locust Jul 28, 2020, 8:40 PM

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sure, but things in general is just more of a hassle

willow sable Jul 28, 2020, 8:40 PM

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Everything here is easy except rent

hollow locust Jul 28, 2020, 8:40 PM

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and you're also relying on that job for the benefits

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lots of pros and cons

willow sable Jul 28, 2020, 8:41 PM

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The rent situation here is fucked

hollow locust Jul 28, 2020, 8:41 PM

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i think fucked is an understatement lmao

willow sable Jul 28, 2020, 8:41 PM

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But if you’re a strong programmer you shouldn’t have any issues

hollow locust Jul 28, 2020, 8:43 PM

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but yeah the rent situation is a pretty big downside to a lot of people wanting to work there, especially for europeans, from people i know/have spoken with

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albeit if you are interested in personal development / growing yourself at the opportunities that exist there theres not much rivalling it either

viral ridge Jul 28, 2020, 8:53 PM

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@hollow locust why would you outsource to EU though if you are outsourcing. Or are u talking the few EU countries where living cost and salaries are actually medium low

woeful spruce Jul 28, 2020, 8:54 PM

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yea, isn't the point to outsource to 3rd world countries?

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thinkmon

marsh wind Jul 28, 2020, 8:55 PM

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Well maybe 3rd world don't have good enough devs? 🤷‍♂️ Idk one of our freelancer is really bad

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Bad enough that we are likely getting rid of him lol

woeful spruce Jul 28, 2020, 9:00 PM

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will they hire someone locally though? Lets hope so

viral ridge Jul 28, 2020, 9:00 PM

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good devs are everywhere

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I know an Indian who gets like 2.5-3k usd pr month

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which is a lot there

woeful spruce Jul 28, 2020, 9:01 PM

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certain dev positions you want to keep in house to have more control

viral ridge Jul 28, 2020, 9:01 PM

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indeed

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choochoo not one of those though ^^

hollow locust Jul 28, 2020, 9:02 PM

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well yeah @viral ridge @woeful spruce but it depoends on what kind of position

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level of competence etc

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its obviously far harder to get a competetive position if you are say in the eu and unwilling to relocate to the us, but if you're competent enough, you can definitely find something still

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although youll still get very good compensation in eu, while lower than us standard of living may not be worse at all either

viral ridge Jul 28, 2020, 9:03 PM

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EU is not just 1

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you can get 100k/yr you can get 25k in other country

hollow locust Jul 28, 2020, 9:07 PM

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outsourcing to for example india where it can be significantly cheaper is definitely a very cost efficient solution, but as jason said, some things it might not be ideal for

#

if its just writing bulk code its a perfect solution

viral ridge Jul 28, 2020, 9:08 PM

#

who says I cant find one from 3rd world country that has better problem solving skills than you and me

#

I would never just want bulk code, thats the pitfall with outsourcing and many people run into trouble because they are crappy coders

#

people who do their research and screening often find good people

#

imho

hollow locust Jul 28, 2020, 9:10 PM

#

ofc, theres always talented people

woeful spruce Jul 28, 2020, 9:10 PM

#

if you can then you can

hollow locust Jul 28, 2020, 9:10 PM

#

but finding them is also akin to just regular recruiting a lot of the time

woeful spruce Jul 28, 2020, 9:10 PM

#

but some would prefer to have people in house to work on the backbone of their system

#

are these outsourced folks going to drop everything if an emergency bug arises?

#

I don't know their reputation there

#

something about having someone in-house or office is a bit more comforting for managers....it is a trade-off

mortal wedge Jul 28, 2020, 9:49 PM

#

Okay, honestly, I kind of figured I wouldn't say anything, but...

#

Tech hiring in Cali is NOT "UP" lol

#

That's laughable

#

(I'm a dev working in Cali)

#

That's all I have to say regarding that situation. That's easily the most ridiculous conversation I've witnessed today.

storm tangle Jul 28, 2020, 10:57 PM

#

lol , this is such a weird situation

#

older people: from past experience living through recessions, how bad will this one be?

mortal wedge Jul 28, 2020, 11:07 PM

#

That really depends on the state of the coronavirus.

#

I just spoke with a recruiter from a worldwide medical device company, they're trying to stay fluid but they told me they're expecting this to easily continue through the end of the year

#

For their US locations

#

and jobs

#

Yes

#

I work with algorithm development for medical devices, primarily. But I do other things in a pinch.

#

Python is not a bad place to start

#

lua is used primarily for scripting, isn't it?

hollow locust Jul 28, 2020, 11:19 PM

#

yeah it is

#

scripting stuff for games is a common use

mortal wedge Jul 28, 2020, 11:19 PM

#

Yeah, I remember scripting in Lua for a MUD I played, lol

#

No functional difference, tbh

hollow locust Jul 28, 2020, 11:19 PM

#

basically the same

mortal wedge Jul 28, 2020, 11:20 PM

#

Generally scripting is within a tighter framework for a very specific purpose

stone turret Jul 28, 2020, 11:20 PM

#

I have a quick q. for yall who are experienced. I've never done a programming job but I have tonnes of experience with Python as a hobby, and it was relatively easy to pick up Django using YT tutorials over a few days. However I don't have a CS degree (or degree at all). How viable is it to go into a Junior Dev role?

hollow locust Jul 28, 2020, 11:22 PM

#

as chaos said scripting with for exmaple lua is usually qutie specific for some purposes (like addons in WoW), but the actual coding part isnt any different from anything else, for a major part

stone turret Jul 28, 2020, 11:22 PM

#

Depends on company. There should be some who would hire you
do you have any recommendation as to what sort of companies I should look at? I've heard companies which are exclusively tech are more willing to train people

#

yeah fair

mortal wedge Jul 28, 2020, 11:33 PM

#

@stone turret Most of the larger tech companies, if you manage to get an interview, are going to drill you on your data structures and algorithms. Even smaller companies are likely to do this. It's one of the biggest roadblocks of going from a hobbyist to a professional role.

#

so I recommend studying up on that if you're missing a CS degree

#

Also, get involved with some projects, build a portfolio, etc. etc. to show your competency regardless of having a degree

#

(Disclaimer: This is my experience at least with the U.S.)

stone turret Jul 28, 2020, 11:35 PM

#

great, thanks. I have a good knowledge of all of Python's data structures. So I should look at stuff like sorting algorithms etc?

mortal wedge Jul 28, 2020, 11:35 PM

#

and from hiring managers located in the Us

#

Yeah. Python has a built in sort that uses timsort, I'd try to at least understand the basics of that. Maybe be able to write your own rudimentary basic sort.

#

These aren't necessarily tools you'll use in your job, lol, but companies like to drill these topics

stone turret Jul 28, 2020, 11:36 PM

#

I'll check out timsort. I learned bubble sort and quicksort in Further Maths at school

mortal wedge Jul 28, 2020, 11:36 PM

#

Very nice

stone turret Jul 28, 2020, 11:37 PM

#

thanks for the advice

mortal wedge Jul 28, 2020, 11:37 PM

#

Those seem simple, but I was asked to implement bubblesort in an interview before

#

You're welcome.

stone turret Jul 28, 2020, 11:37 PM

#

I really appreciate it

mortal wedge Jul 28, 2020, 11:37 PM

#

Best of luck to you!

stone turret Jul 28, 2020, 11:37 PM

#

Those seem simple, but I was asked to implement bubblesort in an interview before
@mortal wedge It's good to know this xD

#

Thanks

hollow locust Jul 28, 2020, 11:38 PM

#

....mfw i learned sorting algorithms from forsens stream lmao, the fuckin meme videos

stone turret Jul 28, 2020, 11:40 PM

#

lmao

hollow locust Jul 28, 2020, 11:40 PM

#

ngl actually really nice to get a visual drilled in on how it actually operates

stone turret Jul 28, 2020, 11:42 PM

#

I can imagine. Seeing it operate is much easier than reading about it

vapid jay Jul 29, 2020, 12:17 AM

#

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywWBy6J5gz8

YouTube

AlgoRythmics

Quick-sort with Hungarian (Küküllőmenti legényes) folk dance

Created at Sapientia University, Tirgu Mures (Marosvásárhely), Romania.
Directed by Kátai Zoltán and Tóth László.
In cooperation with "Maros Művészegyüttes", Tirgu Mures (Marosvásárhely), Romania.
Choreographer: Füzesi Albert.
Video: Lőrinc Lajos, Körmöcki Zoltán.
Support...

▶ Play video

#

this is where i learn

mortal wedge Jul 29, 2020, 12:21 AM

#

omg nice

stone turret Jul 29, 2020, 12:29 AM

#

lmao

📎 unknown.png

inner wrenBOT Jul 29, 2020, 1:56 AM

#

:x: According to my records, this user already has a mute infraction. See infraction #10018.

#

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @vapid jay until 2020-07-29 02:06 (9 minutes and 59 seconds) (reason: mentions rule: sent 11 mentions in 10s).

open patio Jul 29, 2020, 1:56 AM

#

ook

#

!ban 701643549577445467 ping spam

inner wrenBOT Jul 29, 2020, 1:56 AM

#

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @cobalt hedge permanently.

white karma Jul 29, 2020, 2:37 AM

#

F

dapper pagoda Jul 29, 2020, 2:41 AM

#

What are some Tools that are commonly added to your resume?

#

Is this appropriate?

📎 unknown.png

mortal wedge Jul 29, 2020, 2:43 AM

#

You'll probably hear different opinions on listing industry tools like Git, GitHub on your resume. I think it's fine, others think it should be assumed that everyone already knows that but it really isn't the case.

dapper pagoda Jul 29, 2020, 2:56 AM

#

@mortal wedge can i put things like selenium and jenkins?

mortal wedge Jul 29, 2020, 2:56 AM

#

Oh, absolutely, especially if applying for a test role

wide needle Jul 29, 2020, 3:11 AM

#

i never read those sections personally

willow sable Jul 29, 2020, 3:40 AM

#

looking for someone to interview prep with, gonna do a zero to hero, as long as you know the basics i don't mind teaching

dapper pagoda Jul 29, 2020, 3:42 AM

#

@wide needle Do you work in hiring?

vapid jay Jul 29, 2020, 3:44 AM

#

ive heard advice about putting it on ur resume

#

idk cuz i always get ghosted

wide needle Jul 29, 2020, 3:45 AM

#

here's the thing about what you put on your resume. it's honestly a crap shoot depending on who sees it and what they prefer and what their biases are

#

there's not golden rule

#

it's lame but it's the reality of it

#

i don't pay attention to those things (tech lists) but they don't hurt

#

sometimes people put way too much and overly simplistic things. it's usually a big flag they're very junior

#

basically trying to pad their resume because they don't have strong accomplishments to list

mortal wedge Jul 29, 2020, 4:10 AM

#

The thing is too though is skills like that help you get through the ats/recruiter

dapper pagoda Jul 29, 2020, 4:16 AM

#

@mortal wedge How do I find the right balance?

#

Also do employers ever check college transcripts?

mortal wedge Jul 29, 2020, 4:16 AM

#

Yes they sometimes do

wide needle Jul 29, 2020, 4:17 AM

#

i'd say put things you're proud of knowing and are relevant to the job. don't put email clients you know and word/excel if it's a programming job

shadow moss Jul 29, 2020, 4:18 AM

#

employers might look at college transcripts if it's your first job

#

they won't care after that

mortal wedge Jul 29, 2020, 4:31 AM

#

Pretty much. You still occasionally hear stories about companies checking that shit on a whim or for whatever reason and firing people though.

#

It's easier just to be honest about going/not going to college and where you went.

dapper pagoda Jul 29, 2020, 5:04 AM

#

Is there a guide on how to setup and optimize linkedin?

mortal wedge Jul 29, 2020, 5:44 AM

#

Probably. I went to some in person classes and events related to it (since it doubled as a networking event) but I guess that’s not really an option anymore

vapid jay Jul 29, 2020, 7:35 AM

#

if I have a certificate in a programming language, in freelancing could I be worth $18 - $20 bucks an hour?

sleek hearth Jul 29, 2020, 7:36 AM

#

hello

#

where is the noob programming channel??

gilded valley Jul 29, 2020, 7:50 AM

#

#python-discussion is ok for simple/general questions, but questions of any level are welcome in the help channels. See #❓｜how-to-get-help for more info

prime mortar Jul 29, 2020, 7:51 AM

#

Yeah, lol I am new to this too...

where is the noob programming channel??
@sleek hearth

sleek hearth Jul 29, 2020, 7:57 AM

#

oh ok

viral ridge Jul 29, 2020, 9:01 AM

#

@vapid jay wrong way to look at it I think

verbal python Jul 29, 2020, 10:53 AM

#

I think experience is more valuable than certification

vapid jay Jul 29, 2020, 11:05 AM

#

Hi, I am working as freelancer and which is best freelancing site for python developers?

craggy elm Jul 29, 2020, 1:33 PM

#

depends on the field, but having a certificate for a programming language is probably as valuable as the paper it's printed on

wind magnet Jul 29, 2020, 1:42 PM

#

a question about job experience:

#

how does one get over the initial "i have no job experience, so i can't get a job, but i can't get a job, so i can't get any experience" loop

#

ooo also, how much of this is true:

#

📎 unknown.png

craggy elm Jul 29, 2020, 1:46 PM

#

by continuing to apply lol

#

there's no other way out

#

just keep shooting your shot

wind magnet Jul 29, 2020, 1:48 PM

#

ah darn, although that does make a lot of sense

#

hopefully it's gonna be easier to find a job once i do an internship then

craggy elm Jul 29, 2020, 1:49 PM

#

it will be, but it's still a PITA to find a job

#

HR is stupid 99% of the time

wind magnet Jul 29, 2020, 1:49 PM

#

:C

#

awwh well

craggy elm Jul 29, 2020, 1:49 PM

#

it's just one of those things that you just have to do lol

#

shoot your shot -> move onto the next thing

wind magnet Jul 29, 2020, 1:50 PM

#

honestly i find that as good life advice

#

thank you for the info too, i hope the economy gets better once i graduate

craggy elm Jul 29, 2020, 1:50 PM

#

well, there's no point waiting around for an answer imo

#

if you get one, then great. if not, then fuck it lol

#

and you're welcome lol

shadow moss Jul 29, 2020, 2:30 PM

#

Entry level is the hardest. So many candidates, so little to distinguish them

mortal wedge Jul 29, 2020, 3:51 PM

#

Yeah, I only advanced my career by skipping entry level

wide needle Jul 29, 2020, 3:54 PM

#

I didn't go to school so my route was pretty non-standard. I started as tech support for a web hosting company and worked my way up to NOC (network operations) then jumped to NOC at another company, jr sysadmin, sysadmin, sr sysadmin. from there i was able to get an SRE job at google and now i'm an infrastructure/backend software engineer

shadow moss Jul 29, 2020, 4:04 PM

#

Sounds similar to me

mortal wedge Jul 29, 2020, 4:05 PM

#

I went to school but for something different, and just massaged it in my resume

#

and massaged prior experience into something that got me past entry level

#

Just means I've had to work a bit harder once I got the job, no big

gilded valley Jul 29, 2020, 4:10 PM

#

@wide needle do you think you were exceptional/lucky/something to have ended up where you are without an actual degree? Or do you think it's a pretty feasible thing to do

mortal wedge Jul 29, 2020, 4:11 PM

#

Gotta be careful with survivorship bias

gilded valley Jul 29, 2020, 4:13 PM

#

of course, I'm just curious for his take on it - can't expect any one person's experience to be generalizable

wide needle Jul 29, 2020, 4:31 PM

#

@gilded valley i think i'm lucky for sure. but i also worked hard to take advantage of that luck at every stage

#

i recommend people go to school despite having not as i think it's an easier path

#

and a lot of people i've worked with over the years have biases towards people with degrees

#

when i got a job at google their was even an explicit step about sending your college transcripts despite having years of industry experience and the recruiters were confused when i said i didn't have any

gilded valley Jul 29, 2020, 4:33 PM

#

That's about what I expected, the almost-necessity of a degree kinda sucks - and the biases towards not having one suck even more

craggy elm Jul 29, 2020, 4:56 PM

#

i've known what survivorship bias is, but i just never new that there was a term for it lol

mortal wedge Jul 29, 2020, 4:57 PM

#

Yeah 🙂

#

It's handy to use when someone exhibits it obviously, lol

craggy elm Jul 29, 2020, 4:58 PM

#

i would try to describe it, but wasnt aware of the term

gilded valley Jul 29, 2020, 4:58 PM

#

IME calling out survivorship bias rarely goes well

mortal wedge Jul 29, 2020, 5:01 PM

#

Calling anyone out rarely goes well, tbh

gilded valley Jul 29, 2020, 5:02 PM

#

very true

mortal wedge Jul 29, 2020, 5:02 PM

#

But sometimes needs to be done

gilded valley Jul 29, 2020, 5:02 PM

#

and is a habit I should break

mortal wedge Jul 29, 2020, 5:03 PM

#

haha

shadow moss Jul 29, 2020, 5:18 PM

#

As non college degree holder, totally agree with Gary

#

But I got 60 credit hours and college does teach useful things

opal perch Jul 29, 2020, 5:24 PM

#

@wide needle how old are you and how long have you been in industry? because if you did that in 4-5 years then that makes it look like you lost no time by not doing a degree. But if you're like 50 already, then I hate to be that guy, but going from something completely unrelated to have a solid postion at a top company or ceo of another company, used to be so much easier than now

wide needle Jul 29, 2020, 5:32 PM

#

@opal perch i'm mid 30s. it took about 6 years to go from tech support at a small webhost to senior sysadmin at a large corporation. 7 years into working i got a job at google

#

i've been working around 17 years now

#

but i also started at google as a senior engineer at 7 years into my career

#

and didn't have any debt to pay off

#

so i'm very happy with how my career path has worked out

#

at Dropbox we've pulled people from CX (customer service) into eng roles and at Discord we've also done the same

opal perch Jul 29, 2020, 5:35 PM

#

Yea that's awesome. Respect. I think the process becomes a lot easier once you have the first job. I cant speak from experience but from what I've read from others who wrote about them being selftaught

wide needle Jul 29, 2020, 5:35 PM

#

so i know that even now it's a possible path

#

but it's definitely harder

#

i also tell people, even if you skip college, you need to learn the things they teach in college. that stuff is still important

mortal wedge Jul 29, 2020, 5:36 PM

#

^

opal perch Jul 29, 2020, 5:36 PM

#

True

mortal wedge Jul 29, 2020, 5:37 PM

#

It's just that these days, at least in the US, college courses are pretty similar to what you can get from coursera, lol

opal perch Jul 29, 2020, 5:40 PM

#

that's because a lot of unis post their material onto coursera

mortal wedge Jul 29, 2020, 5:40 PM

#

That too

wide needle Jul 29, 2020, 5:40 PM

#

even 15 years ago you could find that stuff. that's what i did. just look at CS curriculum and do it myself

mortal wedge Jul 29, 2020, 5:40 PM

#

I just meant that everything is remote learning, so there's not much of a functional difference between taking a uni's classes on coursera vs taking a uni's classes remotely via whatever playform they choose

#

platform*

#

I do think this is a great time to learn and bone up on your CS

wide needle Jul 29, 2020, 5:41 PM

#

but you have to be more self disciplined. there's something to be said for having an exact curriculum and time and class mates working together

mortal wedge Jul 29, 2020, 5:41 PM

#

^

#

and easily accessible teachers

wide needle Jul 29, 2020, 5:41 PM

#

going alone means it's just you and you alone

mortal wedge Jul 29, 2020, 5:41 PM

#

It's definitely not for everyone

craggy elm Jul 29, 2020, 6:08 PM

#

oh man this is going to be fun. suddenly a knowledge transfer of all the dev work i've done has become a good idea 😂

shadow moss Jul 29, 2020, 6:16 PM

#

lemon_unamused

#

Interview with 7 page resume

craggy elm Jul 29, 2020, 6:20 PM

#

have fun with that lmao

shadow moss Jul 29, 2020, 6:22 PM

#

I’m not

craggy elm Jul 29, 2020, 6:23 PM

#

wth is even in that resume for it to be 7 pages long?

shadow moss Jul 29, 2020, 6:48 PM

#

Just sentence after sentence of everything

#

Like any time they touched a technology

#

It’s a contractor, they are hoping something triggers a keyword

storm tangle Jul 29, 2020, 6:52 PM

#

hey, i have a question: what are sone realistic expectations for a entry level dev? not 5-years experience with 5 languages.. but 11 months of programming hoping to find a job 😰

shadow moss Jul 29, 2020, 6:56 PM

#

you know one language really well, maybe a second language ok

craggy elm Jul 29, 2020, 6:57 PM

#

dont sweat the experience thing for entry level positions. they're just playing a dumb game.

as long as you're relatively confident in your ability to learn some new things on the job & are ok with a good chunk of the tech they put on their wishlist, you should be fine

shadow moss Jul 29, 2020, 6:57 PM

#

also, it's really hard right now just with whole COVID thing

#

many companies have frozen workforce

craggy elm Jul 29, 2020, 6:57 PM

#

yeah for real

shadow moss Jul 29, 2020, 6:57 PM

#

location depending

harsh sable Jul 29, 2020, 7:03 PM

#

I have freelanced for last 12 years. Some of the customers I have worked often with don't think twice about asking me to pickup stuff they know I have no direct experience with. They know I bow out of being considered for the project or at least inform them of high risk of it being a steep ramp for me. It makes no sense for me to blag it and pretend I know something better than I do

#

this is less true in your first jobs/roles 😉

storm tangle Jul 29, 2020, 7:36 PM

#

yeah i know python and javascript “ok” , and ive built a lot of projects especially in the covid-era, but i just feel stuck you know? at this stage it would be nice to get a real job, but every entry level job asks for crazy experience that i dont have - but you’re right

#

its just a wait and see

mortal wedge Jul 29, 2020, 7:41 PM

#

I've freelanced but I would trade freelancing for FTE right now

#

and am planning on making that leap

marsh wind Jul 29, 2020, 8:12 PM

#

Interview with 7 page resume
@shadow moss lol I thought you got someone with academic CV 😂

storm tangle Jul 29, 2020, 8:16 PM

#

@mortal wedge is freelancing a viable option for entry level?

true harness Jul 29, 2020, 8:54 PM

#

entry level as in like, fresh out of college?

warped crypt Jul 29, 2020, 9:09 PM

#

@storm tangle not really, you don't have the experience to know how to handle a project on your own. And if you were to try contracting most companies wouldn't look twice at an entry level contractor.
At most i'd say you could do some websites for some small single person companies (think plumbers, builders ect).

woeful spruce Jul 29, 2020, 10:09 PM

#

yup, projects for a client/employer is a whole different ballgame. Say goodbye to complete autonomy 😁 .

#

also @storm tangle , I would take the experience requirements with a grain of salt. Their 'ideal' candidate would have everything within the job description but they are pretty much unicorns. Anyone who checks off all those boxes in terms of skills, experience and qualifications probably either has a job or wants more $$ than you would want.

#

The need experience to get experience is an unenviable conundrum to be stuck in and I really think experience is starting to get overvalued with a lot of entry level positions. Those fresh out of school are pretty damn driven and hungry, not too mention more malleable in their approach to work.

warped crypt Jul 29, 2020, 10:13 PM

#

also @storm tangle , I would take the experience requirements with a grain of salt. Their 'ideal' candidate would have everything within the job description but they are pretty much unicorns. Anyone who checks off all those boxes in terms of skills, experience and qualifications probably either has a job or wants more $$ than you would want.
@woeful spruce To be honest, most of those requirements are given from the department that wants them, and then the HR department adds on another 2 years experience, an extra degree level and some random admin stuff.

woeful spruce Jul 29, 2020, 10:13 PM

#

I agree they do

#

they are covering their ass

warped crypt Jul 29, 2020, 10:14 PM

#

See it so often where the requirements for something are 5 years experience with something that only release dofficialy 2 years ago

hollow locust Jul 29, 2020, 10:14 PM

#

hey HR we want someone with 6 years of devops experience and some experience in django
ok must have 10 years of dev experience and 6 specifically django

woeful spruce Jul 29, 2020, 10:14 PM

#

HR is a necessary evil in this world...or should I say HRIS is a necessary evil

#

they won't pay enough money for those 10 years of experience

#

...then you will be overqualified

#

😁

warped crypt Jul 29, 2020, 10:16 PM

#

had a friend apply for a job and get turned down for it by HR, because they had added in a requirement for experience with a system that you would only even know about if you were one of the people who had built the system... This was for an entry level job... one person got interviewed because they lied on CV, they were useless. Team had a huge go at the hr team and basically made them send all of the CVs over to the team so they could just do their own checks

#

he got the job after that...
HR departments are the worst some times

woeful spruce Jul 29, 2020, 10:16 PM

#

companies that are doing more coding tests/work sampling are on the right path here to getting the right candidates. So many job descriptions in tech are just archaic and unappealing.

warped crypt Jul 29, 2020, 10:16 PM

#

/recruitment

woeful spruce Jul 29, 2020, 10:17 PM

#

yea I did work in HR once I was helping implement an HRIS, man, what a cost center

proven cargo Jul 29, 2020, 10:24 PM

#

who is professional in python coding?

#

or have a job

zenith inlet Jul 29, 2020, 10:52 PM

#

@calm inlet are you looking to get into CS for work?

calm inlet Jul 29, 2020, 10:52 PM

#

Yes

zenith inlet Jul 29, 2020, 10:53 PM

#

we might want to continue our discussion here since it's quieter

calm inlet Jul 29, 2020, 10:53 PM

#

Guess so 🙂

zenith inlet Jul 29, 2020, 10:53 PM

#

you're going to have to research your uni

#

some universities are friendlier

#

some are less friendly

#

there are places that use Java because they think it's practical, others use JS because it's popular, some use C++ because they're oldschool

#

and others use Python because they think it's nice

calm inlet Jul 29, 2020, 10:54 PM

#

JS?!

#

Seriously

zenith inlet Jul 29, 2020, 10:54 PM

#

You can still build data structures with JS

#

for intro classes, it'll do

#

especially given how web-oriented people are today, it makes a bit of sense

calm inlet Jul 29, 2020, 10:54 PM

#

I want it to be C++, let me check

true harness Jul 29, 2020, 10:54 PM

#

it doesn't really matter what you use, it's the concepts behind it that matter

zenith inlet Jul 29, 2020, 10:54 PM

#

Yes, I've stated that in the other channel

true harness Jul 29, 2020, 10:55 PM

#

oh i didn't know

zenith inlet Jul 29, 2020, 10:55 PM

#

I gave defining operators for custom classes as an example

#

np, it's noisy in there

#

@calm inlet try to find out how they submit stuff for grading, and how they grade

#

if you have a business school at your uni and they grade on a curve, you might be in luck

calm inlet Jul 29, 2020, 10:56 PM

#

Uh there’s a lot of courses

#

Do you like choose your courses ?

zenith inlet Jul 29, 2020, 10:56 PM

#

not because the business students will help you directly, but because they seem to be more likely to cheat and get 0s

#

that assumes grading is on a curve though

#

are you at an american school?

calm inlet Jul 29, 2020, 10:57 PM

#

No Canadian school

zenith inlet Jul 29, 2020, 10:57 PM

#

generally, all schools start out with required core classes that everyone takes

#

and then you branch out from there

calm inlet Jul 29, 2020, 10:57 PM

#

I see

zenith inlet Jul 29, 2020, 10:57 PM

#

also, understand what majors they offer

#

and find out the graduation requirements for each of them

calm inlet Jul 29, 2020, 10:58 PM

#

Wow looks like imma be doing math again

zenith inlet Jul 29, 2020, 10:58 PM

#

generally, you start the first two years doing pre-reqs and intro classes

#

yeah, a lot of that will be math

calm inlet Jul 29, 2020, 10:59 PM

#

There’s a big list sorry if it’s in French ( basically the orange ones are in the common trunk thing that you were talking about )

#

📎 image0.png

#

There’s a lot more than this

#

But yea

#

Linear algebra for engineers

#

Vectorial algebra

#

Applied analysis

#

UI analysis and construction

zenith inlet Jul 29, 2020, 11:01 PM

#

well, you get to choose somewhat

#

there might be competition over getting spots in some classes though

#

generally students in later years get priority on choice

calm inlet Jul 29, 2020, 11:02 PM

#

University is supposed to be the final thing before you work for most people , why are they still talking about math

#

Ive done math all my life

#

Get me into what I’m actually supposed to do for work

#

😂😂

#

Crazy people

#

Don’t worry about the spots @zenith inlet I’m a pretty good student

#

Im very eager to learn like programming and engineering stuff

zenith inlet Jul 29, 2020, 11:03 PM

#

Math is useful for a lot of engineering

#

Discrete math (logic, probability, algorithms) is generally more important for a lot of CS than calculus

#

but depending on what you go into, calculus will still be useful

calm inlet Jul 29, 2020, 11:04 PM

#

Next semester in college I have linear algebra as my math course

zenith inlet Jul 29, 2020, 11:05 PM

#

for example, games make heavy use of calculus and linear algebra

calm inlet Jul 29, 2020, 11:05 PM

#

And physics and modern waves as my physics class

#

Oh cool

#

I love games , but I don’t know if I want to make games , it looks complicated

#

( i don’t feel ready at all)

#

And I don’t think I’ll be ready after university based on the courses I see

#

Unless making games is all about written math

zenith inlet Jul 29, 2020, 11:08 PM

#

I think you're better cut out to start learning games than a lot of people who want to

#

the secret is to know that you're not very skilled yet, and keep the size of the game small

calm inlet Jul 29, 2020, 11:10 PM

#

Yea

#

But if I manage to get in a big game company there’s another issue , even if let’s suppose I’m a great engineer

#

I need to read

#

The thousands of lines

#

That we’re pre- written before I got there

#

And understand them

#

That’s boring

zenith inlet Jul 29, 2020, 11:12 PM

#

well

#

you don't need to understand everything

#

it'll help to read the source to some degree, but you don't need to understand or memorize 100% of it

#

also, keep in mind that reading code is like 90% of what you'll actually be doing

#

you'll have to do it no matter what sort of programming you do unless you're good enough to work on something cutting edge, and you get good enough by reading and working on code

calm inlet Jul 29, 2020, 11:16 PM

#

I see

#

And it’ll probably be in a language that I can’t even understand at the moment

#

Like C++

#

Well I can understand to some extend

#

But not every every thing

#

And understand why it’s there

craggy elm Jul 29, 2020, 11:30 PM

#

idk if they do this in CS, but try implementing OOP in C

#

it's fun

woeful spruce Jul 29, 2020, 11:50 PM

#

are you going to school in Quebec?

#

I'd assume so if your courses are listed like that

zenith inlet Jul 29, 2020, 11:52 PM

#

@calm inlet you'll have to pick up a new language on the job at some point if you go into development professionally

calm inlet Jul 29, 2020, 11:55 PM

#

Yes @woeful spruce

#

Je parle très bien français 😉

#

@zenith inlet probably

zenith inlet Jul 29, 2020, 11:56 PM

#

as i said earlier, it's not that hard once you understand the concepts

#

it just takes time

#

well, ok

#

its usually not that hard

#

some languages are really weird and will confuse you if you're only used to imperative style languages

#

haskell, for example, seems cool

#

but it seems incredibly confusing to a lot of people because of how much abstraction it has

#

and some lisps can be hard to read

#

the really confusing languages generally don't get used for production work though

woeful spruce Jul 30, 2020, 12:06 AM

#

yea, I had a cousin who went to McGill University

#

in Montreal

#

my french is well, umm, lacking for a Canadian

vapid jay Jul 30, 2020, 12:33 AM

#

lol i feel the majority of canadians cant speak french even tho they say canada is bilingual

zenith inlet Jul 30, 2020, 12:56 AM

#

I've heard the majority of French people would agree :p

mortal wedge Jul 30, 2020, 1:07 AM

#

Even when you’re working on cutting edge stuff, you’ll still be reading other code

#

Just because your edge is based off of where someone else reached before

true harness Jul 30, 2020, 1:39 AM

#

half of canada speaks french and half speak english

mortal wedge Jul 30, 2020, 1:44 AM

#

half of america understands english

willow sable Jul 30, 2020, 2:00 AM

#

Looking for someone to interview prep with, its okay if you’re not super strong we are doing a zero to hero but please understand the basics, I can teach if necessary(it helps me learn)

storm tangle Jul 30, 2020, 2:01 AM

#

half of america understands english
@mortal wedge Half? seems a little generous

vapid jay Jul 30, 2020, 2:02 AM

#

30% maybe

vapid jay Jul 30, 2020, 2:36 AM

#

lol i feel quebec is like a tiny portion of canada

calm inlet Jul 30, 2020, 3:32 AM

#

Well I speak pretty well both english and french

vapid jay Jul 30, 2020, 9:36 AM

#

I’m terrible at French

#

I’m gonna fail

#

Guys I have no degree, no softwa related job history, and experience in NodeJS, PHP, a moderate amount of Python, and frontend css/html/vanilla JS. I've made a few simple crud apps and have worked with API's and even implemented simple auth, but haven't done anything crazy.

I really need to get a part-time remote job in the next 2-3 months. Does anyone have any suggestions for how I could go about it?

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 9:54 AM

#

It's not all that helpful, but my guess is that there's many other people in the same situation as you - so it's going to be very difficult to find anything

#

many companies have frozen or slowed down hiring

opal perch Jul 30, 2020, 9:55 AM

#

Guys I have no degree, no softwa related job history, and experience in NodeJS, PHP, a moderate amount of Python, and frontend css/html/vanilla JS. I've made a few simple crud apps and have worked with API's and even implemented simple auth, but haven't done anything crazy.

I really need to get a part-time remote job in the next 2-3 months. Does anyone have any suggestions for how I could go about it?
@vapid jay Don't forget, you have no degree, so for you to stand out, you have to be extra special, in the next months make some big projects and make sure it showcases your work

glossy pecan Jul 30, 2020, 9:56 AM

#

I think your greatest challenge is finding a remote job

#

with the experience you describe, you could get a junior dev job easily, a degree is not necessary

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 9:57 AM

#

yeah, remote+no degree = very hard to find anywhere that will take you

humble elm Jul 30, 2020, 9:57 AM

#

hey, i'm interested in doing dual studies at a company, but i dont know if the even offer such a program, how would i go about asking them? just email the info@company.com adress? or try to find a contact there? its a global company and ofc im only interested in the office in my country. but i can't find a email for the office here...

opal perch Jul 30, 2020, 9:57 AM

#

I think the greatest challenge is competing with people who have degrees, because they already have their foot in the door

glossy pecan Jul 30, 2020, 9:58 AM

#

but remote jobs require you to self-manage more, so hiring junior people for a remote role is already a tricky proposition (degree or not) so you'd be competing with a lot of other folks

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 9:58 AM

#

@humble elm you'd probably be better served by hunting around for the right person to email

#

Emailing general mailboxes is rarely a path to success

#

If they're a smaller company, i.e not a megacorp, you might be able to find the relevant person by poking around their linkedin

humble elm Jul 30, 2020, 9:59 AM

#

nah, pretty big

glossy pecan Jul 30, 2020, 9:59 AM

#

even if you don't find the right person, they can still point you to someone else

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 9:59 AM

#

emailing a human is what's important, not a mailbox

humble elm Jul 30, 2020, 10:00 AM

#

hm ok. lets say i find someone how do i go about asking them?

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 10:00 AM

#

Another option would be applying to some other scheme the company is doing, an internship or grad program, and saying you want to do dual studies instead; I've seen that work for people getting a placement year instead of a grad program

#

An email with a quick summary of what you're asking for, then attached a cover letter+CV is what I'd go for. But I'm not 100%, I know people who have gotten lucky by speaking to humans like this - but not necessarily how they did it

humble elm Jul 30, 2020, 10:02 AM

#

how do i find someone over linked in?

#

ok, so even if i dont know if the have a programm send my CV?

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 10:24 AM

#

Yeah, I would do - make it as little work as possible for them

viral ridge Jul 30, 2020, 10:30 AM

#

is it weird that I have 8inch of hair, yet is clean cut on my resume lol

opal perch Jul 30, 2020, 10:40 AM

#

do you need the picture

#

like are you in a country that needs it

viral ridge Jul 30, 2020, 10:41 AM

#

I would say it is pretty standard, I actually don't remember seeing one without, but no, there's no requirement

#

always enjoyed a fun surprise though^^

wintry imp Jul 30, 2020, 10:48 AM

#

can u look for remote internship ??

#

is it even a thing ?

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 10:52 AM

#

it is a thing - but all internship programs are running/finishing around about now

#

so

#

probably not right now

#

and I doubt it will be a thing in the future

wintry imp Jul 30, 2020, 10:53 AM

#

when is the best time to look for remote internships?

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 10:53 AM

#

6 months ago

wintry imp Jul 30, 2020, 10:53 AM

#

lol

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 10:53 AM

#

more like 6-9 months ago

wintry imp Jul 30, 2020, 10:54 AM

#

what about in the future?

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 10:54 AM

#

in the future, September - December is the best time to be applying

#

some open as early as August

#

but remote internships aren't near as much of a thing

#

(also, this is EU based, I think the times are a bit different in the US)

wintry imp Jul 30, 2020, 10:55 AM

#

nah im from australia

#

but wud they hire me in us or europe?

#

btw thnx for the info m8 😄

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 11:04 AM

#

In the US, visas are very hard to get, so probably not there. I'm not sure what the visa process is like for AU --> EU, so no clue for that one. Biggest issue is probably that term times don't match up. Most internships here in the UK usually occur in may-august months

wintry imp Jul 30, 2020, 11:14 AM

#

bruh y wud i travel for a internship ?

#

i was asking for remote internship

#

👀

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 11:15 AM

#

no EU company is gonna hire someone in an Australia remotely

#

especially not an intern

wintry imp Jul 30, 2020, 11:35 AM

#

what if ur really experienced and talented 😏

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 11:36 AM

#

then you wouldn't be looking for internships

wintry imp Jul 30, 2020, 11:36 AM

#

i was just asking for possibilites 😄

#

but ty for info

craggy elm Jul 30, 2020, 12:02 PM

#

anyone else feel like trying to explain software dev stuff to people who don't do it is like pulling teeth?

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 12:02 PM

#

not really - depends on the exact audience and question though

craggy elm Jul 30, 2020, 12:02 PM

#

i've always been terrible at explaining things lol

#

i was trying to explain why OOP is used a bunch to a coworker - he doesn't really understand it or want to learn it - but he seems to have come to the conclusion that it's just annoying

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 12:06 PM

#

OOP is a weird one

#

some people it just clicks, some it doesn't

craggy elm Jul 30, 2020, 12:08 PM

#

i tried explaining encapsulation as a major reason because, at least for our work, it's very important to do

#

maybe i just didn't explain it very well

distant crow Jul 30, 2020, 1:28 PM

#

have you tried explaining anything to a seasoned programmer? it's sometimes worse

vivid dock Jul 30, 2020, 1:29 PM

#

Don't even remind me of how much time I had to spend trying to teach an intern the very same thing 100 times

craggy elm Jul 30, 2020, 1:32 PM

#

unfortunately, im the most seasoned programmer on the project, which is saying a lot since im not a very seasoned one in the bigger picture lol

#

the worst part of it is my title is "Engineer 1" while most of the "senior" team members struggle with some pretty basic stuff

upbeat elm Jul 30, 2020, 3:07 PM

#

is anyone here from Prague?

halcyon plank Jul 30, 2020, 4:56 PM

#

Hey I have a question.

#

Is it really really tough to get into Google?

#

Like, am from India & here we have these universities called IITs(consider it the Harvard of India) which is damn tough to get accepted in.

#

And apparently Google here only hires from IITs. 🤷‍♂️😕

#

So I wanted to know that is it the same in other countries too?

jaunty yarrow Jul 30, 2020, 4:59 PM

#

ye

sweet shore Jul 30, 2020, 5:08 PM

#

you don't have to be a US Ivy League grad to get into google, but it helps. Their software dev interview process is quite intense.

storm tangle Jul 30, 2020, 5:10 PM

#

Hey - do you guys think Applied Computing is a decent major? My uni has the regular CS program but the math reqs are insane

#

its basically the same, sans the crazy math

sweet shore Jul 30, 2020, 5:11 PM

#

i would talk to your advisers and tell them what you want to accomplish with your degree. They should be able to tell you.

#

Without looking at the class load myself, i have no way to know the practicle applications of the degree

#

but generally, hiring managers want a CS

#

that is of course, when a degree is required (but those roles are kind of starting to fall by the wayside)

storm tangle Jul 30, 2020, 5:13 PM

#

thanks for the response, you make a fair point

#

the courses look almost identical, except the Applied Computing seems to have less math, and substitutes the math portion for a non CS area of focus , for like specialized or focused area

sweet shore Jul 30, 2020, 5:14 PM

#

what kind of degree is it? AAS BAS?

#

i've seen plenty of folks with unrelated degress do fine in interviews (when I was a hiring manager myself, if the role required a degree, i didn't care WHAT the degree was, just that one existed)

storm tangle Jul 30, 2020, 5:15 PM

#

BS

sweet shore Jul 30, 2020, 5:16 PM

#

although, philosophy majors tend to be a little out there lol

storm tangle Jul 30, 2020, 5:16 PM

#

haha the Applied Computing just seems like a way of leveraging an outside interest; art , psychology, economics, business, and merging it with the CS program

#

but I don't know if having "Applied Computing" will hurt job prospects

sweet shore Jul 30, 2020, 5:17 PM

#

yeah, depending on what you do actually want to do in life, it depends

#

if you want to do AI research, it will certainly hurt

storm tangle Jul 30, 2020, 5:17 PM

#

and I just know, as a former art major, I suck at math lol, just trying to be pragmatic

#

ah okay, that is important because i wanted to do AI research! haha

#

very helpful

sweet shore Jul 30, 2020, 5:18 PM

#

oh yeah ... you really, really, really want to go the CS route then

#

and push PhD if you can lol

#

and then waltz into a post-doctoral research role 😄

#

also, Dr. Sunshine don't sound half bad lol

storm tangle Jul 30, 2020, 5:19 PM

#

hahaha it doesnt sound bad at all

#

this really all trying to avoid the math reqs (5 !!) so I guess i'll just live with it :p

sweet shore Jul 30, 2020, 5:20 PM

#

AI research is 100% math 🤷

hollow locust Jul 30, 2020, 5:21 PM

#

doesnt google still do their thing where a part of interviewers (or all?) is just employees that voluntarily signed up for it?

sweet shore Jul 30, 2020, 5:21 PM

#

Usually team members on the applied for team i think

#

been a minute since i thought about it

hollow locust Jul 30, 2020, 5:22 PM

#

yeah

#

i remember there being some fuzz about that since it could be very hit or miss

sweet shore Jul 30, 2020, 5:22 PM

#

yeah ... there was a lot of "tribalism" baked into their process for a while

#

kind of like how FinTech is now ... if you aren't a Finance Bro, don't bother

hollow locust Jul 30, 2020, 5:23 PM

#

yeah

shadow moss Jul 30, 2020, 5:44 PM

#

Google uses a ton of Contractors as well so from what I understand, they prefer Ivy League because that's only what they hire for most part, those from "lessor" schools can be hired by their contractors

#

they are not that elitest

frosty cove Jul 30, 2020, 5:50 PM

#

Google considers candidates even without a university degree now, and has for awhile. I don't think that ivy league comment is true @shadow moss

shadow moss Jul 30, 2020, 5:50 PM

#

Do they consider it for in house or their contractors?

frosty cove Jul 30, 2020, 5:50 PM

#

in house

shadow moss Jul 30, 2020, 5:51 PM

#

Like I've heard Google say "We no longer require X" and it means "We no longer require X from our contractors"

#

Google Contractor Workforce > Google FTE

#

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/28/technology/google-temp-workers.html

The New York Times

By Daisuke Wakabayashi

Google’s Shadow Work Force: Temps Who Outnumber Full-Time Employees

The tech company has long used contractors, but some employees worry that a growing reliance on them represents a shifting, less admirable work culture.

frosty cove Jul 30, 2020, 5:52 PM

#

I'd say for full time employees like SWE they are pretty lenient on having a degree if you make it through their interview process. For research and development, yeah you'd be expected to have a masters/PhD to even apply

shadow moss Jul 30, 2020, 5:52 PM

#

which makes sense

#

as this point, they have a bunch of software that just needs standard maintenance

frosty cove Jul 30, 2020, 5:54 PM

#

It's definitely a two-tier system like the article describes

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 5:54 PM

#

I'd say for full time employees like SWE they are pretty lenient on having a degree if you make it through their interview process. For research and development, yeah you'd be expected to have a masters/PhD to even apply
@frosty cove
Google no longer require one. But the expectation is still baked into their recruitment process

frosty cove Jul 30, 2020, 5:55 PM

#

Yea I'm sure potential candidates with degrees are the first ones flagged by recruiters

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 5:56 PM

#

#career-advice message

sweet shore Jul 30, 2020, 5:56 PM

#

I've been pinged by every big FAANG company except Google, so I imagine it had something to do with my lack of any sort of a degree

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 5:56 PM

#

There's a convo with an ex Google employee

frosty cove Jul 30, 2020, 5:56 PM

#

Wow

#

That's surprising, interesting

#

I have never been asked for my transcript

sweet shore Jul 30, 2020, 5:57 PM

#

Apple was the weirdest one, they wanted me to work on GCP lol

shadow moss Jul 30, 2020, 5:58 PM

#

Why?

#

Apple doesn't have their own cloud

#

They were using Azure at one point

#

We are supposed to standardize on GCP at work

#

it's a really really cheap cloud so it's ultra attractive to many

#

like Discord uses it as well

sweet shore Jul 30, 2020, 5:59 PM

#

The JD was just not usual... Felt more like an exploratory position

#

I certainly prefer GCP

hollow locust Jul 30, 2020, 5:59 PM

#

i remember when a friend of mine went thru googles interview process like two years ago and he decided to basically just ragequit because the process was so awful, and supposedly the interviewers he talked with were pretty clueless/generic bullshit

#

LUL

shadow moss Jul 30, 2020, 6:00 PM

#

I do not prefer GCP

frosty cove Jul 30, 2020, 6:00 PM

#

For my capstone project a groupmember unknowingly racked up thousands of dollar bill on GCP by deploying a super-available resilient SQL instance.

#

our sponsor company was mad

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 6:01 PM

#

Googles interview process seems very locked down. Not necessarily in a good way

shadow moss Jul 30, 2020, 6:01 PM

#

because it's very simplistic and we have had needs that exceeded said simplicity

hollow locust Jul 30, 2020, 6:01 PM

#

yeah charlie, hes been thru interview process of quite a few of the largest tech companies (and also some massive ones in europe), and he said the one he had at google was by far the worst

#

but from what ive seen its very hit or miss just depending on what people you talk to

sweet shore Jul 30, 2020, 6:02 PM

#

I usually tend to run k8s workloads, so GKE really is the product to beat in the managed k8s space

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 6:04 PM

#

From what I've heard about it - it seems to me like it's designed to attract quite a specific kind of person. Difficult to describe exactly what I mean, but they're looking for the kind of person who is very strong on tech stuff; but not necessarily stuff that matters

sweet shore Jul 30, 2020, 6:05 PM

#

TechBro lol

hollow locust Jul 30, 2020, 6:05 PM

#

dunno about that, my only personal anecdote is that guy whos probably the biggest brainer i know lul

#

he ended up working at a nordic companies jet tech dept

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 6:06 PM

#

I dunno - I just have an image of Google in my head that's probably entirely inaccurate. But TechBro doesn't seem too far off the mark

shadow moss Jul 30, 2020, 6:06 PM

#

Charlie, it's very algorithm focused because that's their core

#

like Google became popular because their search algorithm was better then others

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 6:07 PM

#

But it's reached a point where it's not even testing core skills, just in some weird incestous place where all that it's testing is that the person being interviewed can train to pass a google interview

white karma Jul 30, 2020, 6:16 PM

#

So in theory I could know next to nothing but if I pass the google interview perfectly I could land a cozy 6 figure job

wide needle Jul 30, 2020, 6:18 PM

#

i'm a bit behind but i got a job at google in 2010 with no degree

orchid junco Jul 30, 2020, 6:19 PM

#

What I heard is that big techs will hire you to simple things or even nothing as long as you have the potential to make a difference just so to make their rivals weak

wide needle Jul 30, 2020, 6:20 PM

#

i only worked there for 2 years. i used to joke i'd like to go back to google when i retire blobrofl

#

degree requirements are just a filter because google gets so many applicants. if you have experience or a referral degree matters less and less

#

i got in the door through a referral from someone I met at a conference

shadow moss Jul 30, 2020, 6:27 PM

#

I always found sites like Algoexperts a little weird

mortal wedge Jul 30, 2020, 6:27 PM

#

I was about to say

#

If you're just blind applying to places, not having a degree is going to weed you out by virtue of them having so many candidates at that level

shadow moss Jul 30, 2020, 6:28 PM

#

I'd say all of FAANG interviews have a bit of cargo cult problem

#

I went through some of Amazon process (didn't make it) and thought it was a bit wacky

mortal wedge Jul 30, 2020, 6:29 PM

#

I've interviewed with Amazon as well

shadow moss Jul 30, 2020, 6:29 PM

#

at this point, I'd probably ignore all interview requests from them but none of them want my SREness

#

Discord looks interesting at points but I'm not sure I would want pressure

mortal wedge Jul 30, 2020, 6:30 PM

#

Idk, depending on the length of time I'm unemployed I probably wouldn't turn down any interviews except the really sketch ones

shadow moss Jul 30, 2020, 6:30 PM

#

sure, I say that as someone with a steady job

mortal wedge Jul 30, 2020, 6:30 PM

#

"What's 1 + 1? 4. You got it right, you're hired, now come to this new address in Missouri and bring your id and passport with you"

shadow moss Jul 30, 2020, 6:30 PM

#

gary, cool, I'm not anywhere near CA so it's not option

#

plus I'm WinFocused SRE on Azure so I'm not ideal anyways 😉

mortal wedge Jul 30, 2020, 6:31 PM

#

My focus is on algorithms for medical devices but when I was unemployed I was applying for just anything

#

Idk how any job in the US would be considered steady these days

#

Every industry I know of has let some people go

sweet shore Jul 30, 2020, 6:33 PM

#

Yeah ... i got let go from an massive AgTech company due to COVID-19 as well as a few court case losses lol

shadow moss Jul 30, 2020, 6:33 PM

#

gary, I don't do all Win stuff, just focused on that, we have some .net Core in Linux but we run serverless

#

like my company would see Cassandra on GCP VM (going off the blog) and recoil

sweet shore Jul 30, 2020, 6:34 PM

#

the decided kubernetes was hard and switched to Serverless Framework

mortal wedge Jul 30, 2020, 6:34 PM

#

I have a temp position that has a decent shot at extending to FTE, but I'm sitll interviewing with another company

sweet shore Jul 30, 2020, 6:34 PM

#

last i checked, they are now spending double lol

mortal wedge Jul 30, 2020, 6:34 PM

#

Rofl

shadow moss Jul 30, 2020, 6:34 PM

#

j4ng5y, our serverless is cheaper then containers

#

Azure Functions consumption plan is pretty cheap for many things

sweet shore Jul 30, 2020, 6:35 PM

#

i don't doubt it ... but the Cheif Architect said "Serverless Framework" or bust

#

so they are now paying for it lol

#

honestly, i didn't want to support it anyway, so I'm glad they let me know and gave me a 2 month severage package

shadow moss Jul 30, 2020, 6:35 PM

#

looking at group of functions that back Angular site that gets 300 users a day, they cost about .60c a day to run

#

so 19/mth

#

and we don't have to upgrade .Net Core, Microsoft handles it

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 6:37 PM

#

That doesn't seem cheap

#

That seems expensive

sweet shore Jul 30, 2020, 6:37 PM

#

one of our services, after the switch, was spawning about 5000 downstream lambdas because of the runtime limites

shadow moss Jul 30, 2020, 6:37 PM

#

19mth to run Angular site and you don't have to deal with updates?

#

plus all scaling stuff is handled for us......

sweet shore Jul 30, 2020, 6:38 PM

#

our first "serverless framework" bill was quadruple what our monthly spend for 12 k8s clusters was

shadow moss Jul 30, 2020, 6:39 PM

#

.06 to handle per user per month, we make a ton more then that per user

#

when site was rolled out, it obviously cost us much much less

sweet shore Jul 30, 2020, 6:39 PM

#

but ... i guess business is business because they got to fire 12 engineers lol

shadow moss Jul 30, 2020, 6:40 PM

#

Charlie, you also need to include Engineering time for doing things like updates which people ignore

#

like if it was .Net Core container, we would periodically need to rebuild the container for .Net SDK/Runtime updates

#

plus Function auto handles authenication with Azure AD so it can properly access other resources in Azure like Key Vault

sweet shore Jul 30, 2020, 6:43 PM

#

i've not had the pleasure(?) of working with Azure like at all yet. I'm on an IBM/RedHat OpenShift team right now and I quite enjoy it.

woeful spruce Jul 30, 2020, 6:54 PM

#

sorry to hearken back to the NYT article about google contractors, but why was this temp recruiter so hell bent on working at Google?

#

I can sympathize with someone who actually will work in tech departments but recruiter is more of a support role

wide needle Jul 30, 2020, 7:04 PM

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i imagine google is good for your resume regardless of position

shadow moss Jul 30, 2020, 7:04 PM

#

and my guess is some contractors can become FTE, not sure

#

some places convert contractors, some don't, not sure about Google

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 7:07 PM

#

Charlie, you also need to include Engineering time for doing things like updates which people ignore
@shadow moss
I dunno - it blows my mind that 19/mo is cheaper than a docker container - 300/day is pretty easy to handle for a single container it seems to me

shadow moss Jul 30, 2020, 7:09 PM

#

they are pulling marketing data so there is ton of API requests

#

Also, again, a single container might work, if they all didn't show up around same time which a bunch of them do

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so we would need to build scaling into container system

#

we don't have to worry about scaling/load balancing/OS updates/language updates

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it just sits there, delivers the data and SREs almost never have give a crap about the system, we have testing suite which watches it, I think we had one issue in 9 months

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19USD/mth for system that requires almost zero maintenance is freaking steal

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also, our users pay a ton of money so cost care may be different

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19 bucks compared to what we charge the customers comes out to .x%

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 7:16 PM

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Are your customers internal to Rabbit's-Megacorp?

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or are they paying your company?

woeful spruce Jul 30, 2020, 7:24 PM

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@wide needle that is true, but I doubt that is why it is her 'dream job'

#

you can be a recruiter almost anywhere and could probably get an FTE

#

working at google in a Tech position is probably more impressive relative to how it would affect a recruiter's resume

#

I guess I get bothered by how many people are dying to join the Big 3, when you will just be a small fish in a massive pond

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end of my diatribe, sorry

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 7:26 PM

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what are the big three? Facebook, Google, Amazon?

woeful spruce Jul 30, 2020, 7:26 PM

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yes

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Should really be big 4 with Apple

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 7:27 PM

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The list of companies that it could be is pretty massive

#

but there is a relatively small compared to the market subset of companies that are idealised unfairly

woeful spruce Jul 30, 2020, 7:27 PM

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that is my point

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lots of great companies out there, that in some instance,s just get absorbed by those conglomerates anyway

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 7:28 PM

#

Big corps have better recruiting and salaries

woeful spruce Jul 30, 2020, 7:28 PM

#

recruiting yes

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salaries? Not so sure about that when it comes to google

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I read Google's salaries aren't that great since they offer other amenities

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 7:29 PM

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Like, I could go work at some local firm that's actually decent - or I could go to XYZ-Megacorp for 30+% better salary

#

that's a pretty massive difference for a first job

woeful spruce Jul 30, 2020, 7:30 PM

#

but how much cna be lost being a contractor/temp employee?

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no benefits

gilded valley Jul 30, 2020, 7:31 PM

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oh - i'm not sure about the contractor side of things. IMO screw being a contractor for Google/most people

woeful spruce Jul 30, 2020, 7:33 PM

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I am sure many people have to go from contractor to FTE for google when it comes to entry level positions

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the experienced and immensely talented can skip that phase

marsh wind Jul 30, 2020, 7:53 PM

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like my company would see Cassandra on GCP VM (going off the blog) and recoil
@shadow moss tbh Cassandra is a bit of a pita to deal with unless you have a very knowledgeable person managing it

#

With its cql it can be deceivingly similar to sql.... And that's likely one of the biggest mistake you can make 😁

shy ginkgo Jul 30, 2020, 8:31 PM

#

what courses should i take, up to 9 units

📎 unknown.png

hollow locust Jul 30, 2020, 8:32 PM

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thats pretty impossible to say, there are many good ones but they vary wildly in what theyre focusing on, youd need to decide what you are more interested in

shy ginkgo Jul 30, 2020, 8:33 PM

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i honestly dont know what i wanna focus on, preferrably aerospace but idc where i end up @hollow locust

shadow moss Jul 30, 2020, 8:40 PM

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CS360, CS 385, CS497

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or CS349

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in college, broad is best, specialize in master or in workforce

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CS497 is most important

vapid jay Jul 30, 2020, 8:56 PM

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selected topics in cs seems like a vague title lol

frosty cove Jul 30, 2020, 9:00 PM

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lol "problem solving in a team environment"

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what to do when your group member commits their venv folder

shy ginkgo Jul 30, 2020, 9:00 PM

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its a series of lectures within different topics @vapid jay

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literally that lol @frosty cove its aproject based class

vapid jay Jul 30, 2020, 9:01 PM

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when ur team members vanish lol

frosty cove Jul 30, 2020, 9:01 PM

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In my compilers class my team members did @vapid jay 😢

vapid jay Jul 30, 2020, 9:01 PM

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oof

frosty cove Jul 30, 2020, 9:02 PM

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no group members sucked but upside I wrote an entire compiler myself and learned a lot

raven nymph Jul 30, 2020, 9:02 PM

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@frosty cove do you only program in python?

shy ginkgo Jul 30, 2020, 9:02 PM

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nah you cant

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you cant hold yourself to one language

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thats bad

frosty cove Jul 30, 2020, 9:03 PM

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For work? Or for that project? @raven nymph

raven nymph Jul 30, 2020, 9:03 PM

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for both

shy ginkgo Jul 30, 2020, 9:03 PM

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when you make a compiler you make a new language right?

raven nymph Jul 30, 2020, 9:03 PM

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sorry i'm curious

frosty cove Jul 30, 2020, 9:03 PM

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Yeah, you usually make a toy language which is a subset of a well known language

#

We did some like tiny C variant or something

raven nymph Jul 30, 2020, 9:03 PM

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don't you use assembler for compilers?

shy ginkgo Jul 30, 2020, 9:04 PM

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well yeah

frosty cove Jul 30, 2020, 9:04 PM

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For that class, we used C plus Flexx and Bison.

shy ginkgo Jul 30, 2020, 9:04 PM

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the route of every language is assembly

frosty cove Jul 30, 2020, 9:04 PM

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Sort of. You program what instructions the program would translate to, so yes?

shy ginkgo Jul 30, 2020, 9:04 PM

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so a compiler is just what translates lets say python to assembly?

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or machine language basically

frosty cove Jul 30, 2020, 9:05 PM

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Python is not a compiled language, interpreted languages are a bit different @shy ginkgo

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(~~Not sure if~~ an explanation would be off topic for this room)

vapid jay Jul 30, 2020, 9:05 PM

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I know this sounds stupid but

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What is data science and computer science

shy ginkgo Jul 30, 2020, 9:05 PM

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hmmm

vapid jay Jul 30, 2020, 9:05 PM

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And networking

raven nymph Jul 30, 2020, 9:06 PM

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@shy ginkgo actually assembler and machine language are different

vapid jay Jul 30, 2020, 9:08 PM

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to the best of my knowledge data sci is analyzing significant amounts of data using computers

frosty cove Jul 30, 2020, 9:11 PM

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data science is import pandas :^)

crude crown Jul 30, 2020, 9:51 PM

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can confirm

vapid jay Jul 31, 2020, 12:37 AM

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where does one find these.. computers

white karma Jul 31, 2020, 1:20 AM

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On the internet of course

mortal wedge Jul 31, 2020, 4:07 AM

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Where does one find this... internet

true harness Jul 31, 2020, 4:12 AM

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On the internet of course

vapid jay Jul 31, 2020, 5:47 AM

#

what courses should i take, up to 9 units
@shy ginkgo if u wanna go on to study ML/AI in the future, take the AI courses

#

in college, broad is best, specialize in master or in workforce
@shadow moss this comment is not so true

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decent/good grad schools want students who aren't complete beginners in that area

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good/best grad schools/programs want students who are already really good (already published research and so on)

marsh wind Jul 31, 2020, 6:25 AM

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omg I just had a revelation that in French FANG is GAFA

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for some reason they don't inlcude N, ye

wintry imp Jul 31, 2020, 6:36 AM

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so im just creating a web portfolio. Its work on progress. I just want some feedback on it. if its cool can some check it out. Its just rough idea but i wanna get some more feedback on content placements etc. and am i allowed to post a link here ?

gilded valley Jul 31, 2020, 6:38 AM

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I think you are allowed, itsy) yeah

wintry imp Jul 31, 2020, 6:38 AM

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ty

gilded valley Jul 31, 2020, 6:39 AM

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First feedback

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It does not work on mobile

wintry imp Jul 31, 2020, 6:41 AM

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oh ye haha i have to work on it thnkyou next time i post the link again i will fix that for sure

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its just plain js and css. i will add bootstrap for making it responsive

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i wanted to add design category for the prototying stuffs i did but i think i will remove it and can u possibly give me suggestion of the categories. so far i got design, develop, projects and contacts. im thinking of adding my language knowlege and a bit of detailed on the stuffs on softawre development process on develop. or like do i need to add anything more. And on the project im probably going to list all the projects that i did and upload it on github and just link it to the portfolio? Am i missing anything else there @gilded valley THnx heaps

sick stratus Jul 31, 2020, 7:52 AM

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This is a bit of an odd question, but what exactly are employers looking for in a Python programmer? I'm having trouble seeing how the skills I have now and the projects that I built could be useful to a business or enterprise at the moment.

For example, I've done a few projects with facial recognition, made graphs showing language distribution and chess game analysis, and wrote programs that generate/fetch images for your wallpapers. What I'm failing to see is how this would be applicable in a workspace. Are there some set skills/modules Python developers should know to be able to help in useful applications?

tl;dr: What packages should I know and what projects should I work on to prepare myself for a Python career? What does a day in the life of a Python developer look like?

vivid dock Jul 31, 2020, 7:57 AM

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I'd say just showing you're able to learn new packages, and know how to use python well is enough for an employer to consider you. Since you can learn what you need to get started.

#

It's often part of the onboarding to learn the stack

#

Already knowing it is a plus of course, so you'd probably have to look at jobs you want, and figure out what they use instead of the other way around?

viral ridge Jul 31, 2020, 10:56 AM

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I think those are decent projects for show off tbh

sick stratus Jul 31, 2020, 11:07 AM

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I think those are decent projects for show off tbh
@viral ridge Thank you. The thing is that I have no experience with Python as a job and I fail to see how these programs or things similar in nature that I often program would be useful at a business/enterprise level.

vivid dock Jul 31, 2020, 11:13 AM

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You'd be surprised how little "job work" differs from random programming

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Except maybe a lot more planning, meeting, documentation etc

mild pilot Jul 31, 2020, 11:28 AM

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@lyric junco We don't allow recruitment, as it says clearly in the channel topic.
"Discussion: Python and the world of work | NOT FOR RECRUITMENT | For recruitment and jobs, see https://www.python.org/jobs/ and https://www.pythonjobshq.com/"

Python.org

Welcome to Python.org

The official home of the Python Programming Language

raven nymph Jul 31, 2020, 12:48 PM

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@mild pilot may i ask why you don't allow people to search for jobs here? it would actually be a good thing in my opinion

mild pilot Jul 31, 2020, 12:50 PM

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Mainly because it is very hard for us to regulate, and there are other platforms specifically made for advertising jobs that would work better than this server.

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If stuff is localised than it won't be relevant to 99% of our members

raven nymph Jul 31, 2020, 12:51 PM

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ok, thx

copper wigeon Jul 31, 2020, 1:38 PM

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I want to start doing some Discord bot freelance work as a way to get a bit of money coming in while I search for a job. What's the best way to do this?
In my experience fiverr is not a very good site to use, and I'd love to just create a server where people can open tickets and get a quote etc. but customers to join would be the issue.

sweet shore Jul 31, 2020, 1:40 PM

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That is always the issue @copper wigeon

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You just have to carve out your niche and market yourself in places that you're allowed to do so

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Freelancing is hard

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It's rewarding, but it's tough sometimes being the CEO/marketing/PR/accounts payable/accounts receivable on top of lead developer

#

Basically, what I mean by "carve out your niche" is: you want to charge for bots. But what kind of bots do you want to build. Once you know that, you have to identify your market and specifically what your product can do for that market. Then it's all advertising. If you aren't good at rejection, then choose your market very, very carefully, because in my experience, I get 10 No's to every yes when I advertise myself

crude folio Jul 31, 2020, 2:17 PM

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Thought you'd all appreciate this batshit email I got this morning from the CEO
TL;DR:

We've been attacked by pirates
Well done on no Lost Time incidents
Afternoon tea was tasty

📎 surreal_email.png

shadow moss Jul 31, 2020, 2:47 PM

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@vapid jay if someone is asking us, my advice stands. If you knew what you wanted for masters, you would be doing it.

sweet shore Jul 31, 2020, 3:18 PM

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@crude folio the pirate attack didn't result in lost time? That kind of surprises me lol

crude folio Jul 31, 2020, 3:32 PM

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Apparently not? Maybe after being attacked by pirates they just did some overtime?

true turtle Jul 31, 2020, 6:51 PM

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damn i thought piracy attack as in software piracy and then I read it

mortal wedge Jul 31, 2020, 7:23 PM

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Yeah same

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It’s like high seas shit

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Can you be a land pirate?

vapid jay Jul 31, 2020, 7:44 PM

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arrr u reeeeady kidssssss

white karma Jul 31, 2020, 8:13 PM

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“Computer programmers get raided by pirates in Mexico”

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I think the timeline shifted again

thin flower Jul 31, 2020, 11:11 PM

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Yo everybody, I have some experience coding with python and other languages but have not found my jam. I am wondering if anyone here has a job programming in python or makes money online? What areas of programming would you recommend to start making money or getting a remote job with Python?

sweet shore Jul 31, 2020, 11:23 PM

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I am a professional developer, with python as well as go and rust. I've worked for several companies where the primary language for every aspect was python, and I've worked for ones where python was disallowed

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Most of the opportunities I see for py at the moment is web development (Django / flask / bottle / etc...) Or something in the data analytics or data science fields

#

@thin flower

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Some AI/ML, but there are a lot less of those

thin flower Jul 31, 2020, 11:26 PM

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Cool, thanks j4ng5y. Are you a web developer? or what sort of developing do you do? I have completed some projects in web dev using Node, go, and django but have not really love web dev.

sweet shore Jul 31, 2020, 11:27 PM

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I'm more DevOps/SRE than anything and my development furthers that

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I've done web in the past, but not frontend (backends and APIs mostly)

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It's really helpful to have a good handle on the operations side of things when job hunting though (AWS/azure/gcp experience)

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Like, not just to know python, but how to get it to run in a production environment (e.g. - deployments lol)

thin flower Jul 31, 2020, 11:32 PM

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Cool, I like the backend more than frontend. What can I do beyond creating CRUD apps in order to become a better dev and have a chance to get hired? I am interested in learning more about operations and how to connect all the pieces. Do you have any projects or gigs that you can assign to me or point me to so I can practice?

#

I've just had a hard time to get our of tutorial hell and get things actually done.

sweet shore Jul 31, 2020, 11:35 PM

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Learn some APIs that aren't JSON to broaden your knowledge (gRPC is big in mictoservices - as is message queuing systems)

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Learn lots of databases

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And how to actually use them

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Learn caching

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And really know async/threading

thin flower Jul 31, 2020, 11:37 PM

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Cool, thank you for the info bro. Are there any projects that you can recommend ?

sweet shore Jul 31, 2020, 11:37 PM

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And containers, definitely containers (and Linux if you don't know it lol)

thin flower Jul 31, 2020, 11:38 PM

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Like docker containers?

sweet shore Jul 31, 2020, 11:38 PM

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Yeah

thin flower Jul 31, 2020, 11:38 PM

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seems like a lot to learn. I know people that know way less coding that I do and have jobs as devs 😦 I am unable to get my foot on the door

#

I don't have a bachelors so that might be a reason but would like to get a mentor

sweet shore Jul 31, 2020, 11:39 PM

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As far as projects, I would try to take a stab at building multiple apps, deployed in containers, that can all talk to one another

thin flower Jul 31, 2020, 11:39 PM

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and try to learn from an actual dev

sweet shore Jul 31, 2020, 11:40 PM

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There is unfortunately an unnecessary level of luck needed to score the first gig though

thin flower Jul 31, 2020, 11:41 PM

#

amen bro. well thanks for chatting with me an sharing your knowledge. Imma try to figure out what should be the first thing I need to focus on learning.

sweet shore Jul 31, 2020, 11:44 PM

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I'm always happy to help. Remote mentoring is tricky, but I'm always here lol

#

Feel free to invite me to repos and I'll review them for you

#

(GitHub name is the same as it is here)

blazing dew Aug 1, 2020, 3:20 AM

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@thin flower This is a bit late of a response, but please don't post gifs in channels like these.

thin flower Aug 1, 2020, 3:22 AM

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@blazing dew 4 sure. Playing Visual Studio Code bud?

blazing dew Aug 1, 2020, 3:23 AM

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As always.

unkempt cloud Aug 1, 2020, 4:01 AM

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Would companies like Heroku or Algolia take interest in student projects and consider sponsoring them, especially if they were 'executed well'?

#

I do not have a lot of money and am developing a project which I hope to host on Heroku using some free resources. I'm also using Algolia's services. If I execute it well and get it working, I plan to email Heroku and Algolia asking for hosting assistance. Does anyone know if they even do anything like that?

mortal wedge Aug 1, 2020, 5:51 AM

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I haven't heard of anything like that, but you could be the first!

soft karma Aug 1, 2020, 7:15 AM

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Have any of you guys gotten any sort of basic IT cert. along with a engineering degree? I wanna check out if it's worth the extra time spent at school

wide needle Aug 1, 2020, 7:16 AM

#

probably depends on the field you want to go into

#

on the backend infra side i don't know anyone that looks at those IT certs as being worth anything

#

but i know if you're going into IT itself they seem to put a lot more value on them

#

that said they wouldn't hurt, other than the time/money cost

viral ridge Aug 1, 2020, 8:28 AM

#

I guess aws a certification does not hurt

mild drift Aug 1, 2020, 1:00 PM

#

Hi All, I just joined the server, I have some professional experience in python from some years ago when I worked at a VFX studio, but the last 5 years or so have been in game dev and as such a lot of c++/c code as well as domain specific stuff such as shader languages and even gpu assembly (yes, it gets hairy at times). However I'm thinking of making a lateral move from graphics and engine programming to more gameplay centric topics, and as such scripting langs are common in job specs. I understand that these scripts are probably interpreted by a c++ engine rather than any tech being built in python itself. Does anyone here have any exp of gameplay programming at a studio? Or know someone who does and would be kind enough to introduce me? Thansk

#

Thanks, even

sweet shore Aug 1, 2020, 2:16 PM

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@soft karma I don't have an engineering degree at all, just certs, and I do just fine :D

#

@mild drift sorry bud, if I think of anyone, I'll bring them to you, but I just don't

mild drift Aug 1, 2020, 2:19 PM

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@sweet shore no worries, thanks!

shadow moss Aug 1, 2020, 2:28 PM

#

Game dev is notorious for long hours and terrible pay.

gilded valley Aug 1, 2020, 2:46 PM

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@vapid jay advertising/recruitment isn't allowed here

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(as it very clearly says in the topic)

opal perch Aug 1, 2020, 2:49 PM

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<@&267629731250176001> ^^

rare sand Aug 1, 2020, 2:52 PM

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@vapid jay we don't do that here. next time read the topic before you post.

mild drift Aug 1, 2020, 4:01 PM

#

@shadow moss I have worked professionally as a game developer for 7 years, the first two of which were in Tokyo, and the bulk of it since returning to the UK at a first party console manufacturer helping third and first parties with their most difficult technical challenges. Hours were good, plus I got to travel a lot and stay in cushy hotels. However to be honest I got quite bored. I did get to meet many people in many different studios and see different studio cultures, things varied of course but generally people were very happy with their work and worked set hours, supported their families without problem and took pride in their projects. Sensationalism is something that get blog clicks, and of course I also heard stories about specific studios that were best avoided, but that narrative of "long hours with terrible pay" is largely inaccurate

#

plus, there are plenty of software jobs that aren't related to games that have long hours, and terrible pay

#

long hours in any industry is almost always due to bad management, and there can be too much of that anywhere, sadly

vapid jay Aug 1, 2020, 8:40 PM

#

Should I learn Django ?
I see a lot of jobs that needs either django or flask

tame lodge Aug 1, 2020, 8:42 PM

#

yeah

edgy onyx Aug 1, 2020, 8:42 PM

#

Probably a good idea if you want to use Python for a job

vapid jay Aug 1, 2020, 8:43 PM

#

any idea what is the average time it take to get a fine grip on django

lapis wind Aug 1, 2020, 8:43 PM

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Django is massive

#

Flask not too long if you know what youre doing

#

but id say Django is in comparable scale of diversity as something like Tensorflow

white karma Aug 1, 2020, 8:57 PM

#

Neat

sweet shore Aug 1, 2020, 9:11 PM

#

I've never heard that comparison before, but it's a good one @lapis wind

viral ridge Aug 1, 2020, 9:13 PM

#

is it normal for a hiring manager to ask technical questions

marsh wind Aug 1, 2020, 9:35 PM

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Yes If they know some tech

#

Or if they want to see how well you can communicate with non tech people @viral ridge

gilded valley Aug 1, 2020, 9:36 PM

#

sometimes they will have a set answer on a sheet or something that they're expecting

marsh wind Aug 1, 2020, 9:36 PM

#

I had the latter case more than ones

#

Including last where I had to explain what is entropy (in physics) in simple understandable form

tardy grove Aug 1, 2020, 9:37 PM

#

dang