thanks dude
#career-advice
crude valley
weary forge
That way you build up your resumé
wind hinge
amy idea for flask projects?
weary forge
@wind hinge portfolio site
Perfect for a lightweight lib like flask with static files
wind hinge
oh so i should make something like resume, but then i could only put that site as project because i never worked on real one
only some private like crud app
crude valley
reposting from general:
hey guys, doing a bunch of research this week on self study stuff. im basically in a pretty cool position where i can spend every waking hour self studying for the next 6 months approximately... no degree & just trying to land the best paying programming job that I can, with the general end goal of making really good money as a software developer
im not really sure what job i should be shooting for
but i'd like to have an endgoal for this 6 month venture
like a junior developer or web developer position
weary forge
Well, wHaT dO yOu lIkE tO dO rIgHt nOw?
I hate people asking that question but they ask it for a reason
crude valley
whatever would look the best on the portfolio and has the best time value
/ would be giving me experience in the most important things i need to know
wind hinge
are sites even pop[ular now, like i see more and more apps for phones
crude valley
im trying to cast a very wide net
i don't think i need to be interested in the topics necessarily, i kind of just want to make money
or at least not super interested
i'll do whatever
weary forge
I kind of get where you are coming from
but you have to realise, you may be stuck in the business for like 30 years lol
wind hinge
i am not sure where he comes from but i ll give my max to do something, so i am still searching for projects at least private
weary forge
... are you sure you are willing to throw away the majority time you have at this one single shot at life?
@wind hinge I heard that startup company Youtube gets a lot of viewers on their site
crude valley
well from a philosphical standpoint, i believe that you don't necessarily have to love your job
that being said i also believe in having passions and hobbies on the side
crude valley
but where i stand right now, the overall career profile of a software developer seems like something i'd be very interested in
crude valley
im kind of an introvert and don't like the idea of pulling 60+ hour weeks
like a doctor or accountant would have to
weary forge
AI seems like the absolutely obvious choice for phat stacks and job security
crude valley
okay
seems like you have strong opinions about the industry. have you seen a lot of people burn out?
why are you interested in the field?
also thanks so much for your time responding to my questions
: ^)
weary forge
Well, first of all, some context
I just turned 19, and I literally haven't joined the job market lol
crude valley
ok haha
where did you hear about AI being big? seems like super niche to me but i don't know anything about it
weary forge
well, just look around you
crude valley
or just seems like something way past my capabilities
weary forge
AI is extremely big
crude valley
or something i could maybe consider after years and years in the industry
weary forge
machine learning, neural networks, etc
crude valley
like some big brain shit
weary forge
nah, it's the entry point for many programmers since like 5 years or so back
crude valley
okay
i didn't know that
are you in college?
sorry i shouldn't spam you, but i sent you a friend request. thanks again for the time
weary forge
College/uni/whatever works a lil different in sweden
and np at all!
I'm going to uni this fall, the equivalent of CS
crude valley
nice
weary forge
Datateknik is like a merge of compeng and compsci
weary forge
Haha yeah
So I will probably get a tech job and go through the motions, and I'm like you in the sense that I don't care that much what subcategory I go into, as long as I don't dislike it and I make a decent amount of money
So in a sense that makes me a hypocrite
Though... here's the thing. It's the lesser evil. I have been truly thinking about what other possible jobs I could've gotten and I just can't see anything I have equal or more interest, that isn't a complete meme
I'm a music guy and I consider myself decent at writing stuff, but no chance in hell that I could make even a liveable wage in those two extremely cutthroat businesses
I'm not even okay at actually producing music, and I have little to no creativity when it comes to either music or writing
....
So in the end, I'm worried. I'm worried that the one and only "passion" I have is so half-assed, and so "lukewarm" I guess you could call it
Like I know friends that draw and draw and draw and have been for their whole lives
crude valley
yes i know how you feel
weary forge
man, holy fuck, they don't know how good they have it
crude valley
i wanted to be an animator, and i still do lol
in my opinion, joining the workforce and acclimating to a 9-5 working man's lifestyle is a great asset that could be used toward artistic endeavors as well
and like i said i plan on working on art stuff on the weekends, because i also hate the idea of 9-5 grinding for the rest of life
but unfortunately, it seems that the art stuff needs to kind of take flight on its own first before it can be relied upon as a consistent source of income
but i do think it's possible
weary forge
Definitely
crude valley
also in general working and providing companies a solid and important service such as software development can be very rewarding i think
but yeah i don't want to do it forever
wind hinge
ehh i need to enroll uni i guess after high school (i hope its after hs) but i am kinda bad in math, is there any tut to improve or what to do, i d like compete in 3rd year for uni because i wont need any kind of test there, any idea?
crude valley
but the idea of just doing art stuff my whole life also seems like i'd be missing out on something important in life
weary forge
Honestly? I think the true godtier answer is starting up your own business/becoming an entrepreneur (though not freelancer)
crude valley
yeah i totally agree
i'd love to start my own business some day
especially since i live in america
wind hinge
i am kinda afraid of that new school
crude valley
that's kind of the dream
weary forge
I don't have an entrepreneurial mind but but if I during my work week slog suddenly come up with a great idea, holy fuk you best believe I am going to work sleepless nights setting it up
Sweden as well, we value entrepreneurial stuff extremely high
probably because we are wannabe americans lol
crude valley
lol for sure
weary forge
I'm probably going into AI. Currently, all the other tech subcategories feel like dead ends
or rather, none of them have quite the "skill ceiling"
high kayak
If you want to be totally free to do what you want then becoming financially free / self sustainable should be the top of your list and coding is a good way to achieve that if you're sensible because once you don't have to answer to someone else for a wage you can do anything you want. A wage is compensation for your time, time is the one thing nobody can buy more of, it's finite and extremely limited, with the exception of medical intervention to prolong ones life for a short amount
weary forge
time is the one thing nobody can buy more of this might sound very obvious, but when you truly internalize it, you realize how profound it is
Yup. Time truly is money
silent haven
marsh wind
@vapid jay what kind of science?
crude crown
on the topic of interviews talked a bit before by @shadow moss, I can't reinforce enough the "don't go negative" bulletpoint. Even if it's something that it's legitimately something worth to be negative about, interviewers (in particular HR people) don't like that AT ALL. I've got burned before due to this.
@crude valley you're totally right about "love your job" thing. This whole "loving" your job/career is something that kicked in hard in the last 10 years and it's exploitative brainwashing in my view. Loving something is reserved for very very very few things, most definitely not for the vast majority of jobs/careers. But alas, if you want to remain inside the overton window, you'll need to say so, along with that your "passionate" about your career.
broken shore
yeah, I will agree, the ideal of loving your job is something that has been unduly pushed on employees
crude crown
@weary forge, you remind of me. I'm also (but more and more "was") a music guy but I already knew more than a decade ago that a career on it would be something extremely unrealistic, hence why I studied something that also involves making stuff and I had some sort of affinity to it (in my case, I went for electrical and computer engineering). And trust me, if a music career was bad 15 years ago, it was godawful last year. And now, with COVID, it's completely dead IMO.
broken shore
really, it's the job of your HR department and senior leadership to make a workplace enjoyable and meaningful
crude crown
also, why do you feel other "tech subcategories" feel like dead ends and "AI" isn't?
it's amazing, literally everyone wants to get into "AI" and ignores the other miriads of fields within the domain of computer science.
broken shore
It's not hard for trends to become big names in business as much of what makes business profitable is speculation
crude crown
I mean
I can definitely see the appeal considering how "sexy" it is compared to other stuff.
and it makes sense, conceptually it's cool stuff.
broken shore
yeah, it is also very cool compared to something like writing a new compiler
crude crown
but really, there's an HUGE overflow of people working on it.
broken shore
oh yes definitely, like I love the idea of Data Science, but I wouldn't go into a career in Data Science unless that was my actual educational background, far too flooded of a field
crude crown
it really is man, trust me.
broken shore
I'm an organizational psychologist who's basically here to supplement my skillset with data science
crude crown
and let me tell you, it's another "grass is greener" phenomena.
now that's a smart move
that I can endorse, to learn some statistic and ML stuff in order to augment what you currently do
broken shore
meh, I guess so, makes me better at being a scientist, but not as profitable as being a full fledged data scientist
crude crown
along with programming
broken shore
oh yeah totally
crude crown
I don't know how it is in Canada, but I assume it's a bit similar over the western world
you'll get paid about the same as a regular programmer
broken shore
some of my profs in my Masters basically made a career out of being I/Os who knew R
crude crown
unless you're in the 1%
broken shore
back when that was newer
well I'm not working a programming job nor do I ever really intend to do one
crude crown
that's a good move too.
broken shore
I'm a behavioral scientist first
trust me though, programming is probably the most open job market I've seen, so really anyone here who is going into programming as a career probably has a better chance of securing a higher paying and higher benefit job than most people in the US and Canada
broken shore
No idea what it is like in Europe, but I do know the pay disparity between even neighbors like the US and Mexico is astronomical
crude crown
well, let me put it this way
in North America (in particular the US), there's a real chance of achieving early retirement as a programmer.
In Europe? Good luck with that, even if you work for a few years in a country like UK or Ireland and then move to a cheaper country like Romenia or something.
or Switzerland as a country to make your money
Austria not so much.
I'm not implying you can't, I'm just stating that the ROI is higher in Switzerland.
broken shore
Honestly my opinions on work and wage in general probably aren't appropriate for this server, but I will say that looking at America as a good deal for a specific skill which is trendy where the value of something can change by slapping on a stupid name probably tells you there is something rotten at the core of what we consider valuable in the first place.
crude crown
Totally agree with that, such is the way of the world.
broken shore
it unfortunately is, hope that changes in my lifetime
broken shore
Our current economic system isn't even 300 years old and the dominant political ideology in the US is about 50 years old so things can change faster than what we give them credit for
I'll stop there though as I don't want to upset staff by talking about the politics of economics and labour
broken shore
hahaha, probably yeah
I'm hoping that once I get good enough at Python I can do more analyst work at my job instead of associate
crude crown
kinda back to the topic
you do very well to consider learning those as a way to augment what you currently do
I wish I was on that position...
broken shore
yeah I definitely am interested in it, It's a long road ahead for sure though
I'd give myself 3 months of effort until I'm confident writing anything for my job proper
way longer than that until I can confidently just build stuff without asking if it's would even make sense
crude crown
sound like a reasonable time frame.
crude crown
currently working as a ML Engineer
crude crown
yup, exactly.
broken shore
I think everyone finds other people's careers more interesting than their own
broken shore
oh that's unfortunate, why not?
crude crown
oh man, let me try to keep it short.
Basically, a total lack of recognition/value of my know how and my efforts and a shitload of political bullshit.
not to mention the crappy pay.
broken shore
ah, very typical. Things like recognition and feeling like you're valued are fundamental to good org culture
if you fail at those basic things kiss your employee engagement goodbye
Politics is usually a more complicated things, I'm not very familiar with the BS interworking of caproate governance
broken shore
Never a good thing to have be a problem
crude crown
and I don't sugar coat things enough
despite my efforts to be diplomatic in general, but clearly they were not enough.
not to mention that I'm not a social butterfly at all.
broken shore
there are some organizations that actually value that a lot, you're probably in one of those "smile and pretend everything is super fucking happy!" kind of places
crude crown
but ironically enough, now that my company is totally WFH that's not a problem at all now, especially considering that I'm mostly working solo now.
dude, that's exactly it.
that's what you get for working somewhere with the typical american culture.
broken shore
mhm, the company is valuing work climate over having a good work culture
broken shore
Americans in my non scientific opinion get that because they have this idea if they all work hard they will be millionaires and they are constantly scared of losing their jobs so they don't speak their minds
yeah, it's probably better to work in a company culture that matches your own countries culture rather than an American one
crude crown
Nah, I don't even really identify with my country's culture
broken shore
you probably do more than you do US culture
crude crown
a bit more.
at least there's not the implicit obligation of being jolly all the freaking time.
which, as you can tell, doesn't come easily to me at all.
broken shore
and the whole "rise and grind" mentality of US culture
sterile wave
well us does have higher social mobility
maybe not high enough
well perceived social mobility
idk if it's still as high as it was but the perception is there
crude crown
can't argue with Seagull, there's indeed higher social mobilty in the US compared to Europe in general.
broken shore
sort of, don't really want to get into social mobility though as I'll have to get political with that
crude crown
lower taxes, way higher wages.
broken shore
I'll just say it's unequally distributed and looks better on the outside than it does on the inside
I'm a dual citizen US and Canada so I've seen what it's like inside and out
I will agree that you can move in society really fast in the US
crude crown
that's also true.
would much rather be poor (arguably I already am) in Europe than in the US.
broken shore
same here in Canada
crude crown
but that's something most people are aware I think.
broken shore
but yeah, so I guess WFH has probably made you job at least tolerable
crude crown
yes it did. It allowed me to move back into my hometown and save a bit more money for a while.
broken shore
oh that's great
crude crown
ain't much more per month, but it's something.
broken shore
honestly WFH is something I feel like will fundamentally change how we all work
I just hope it end up for the better
I know programming is a bit further along with that than everyone else
crude crown
curiously enough, a thread on Hacker News appeared about whether people moved back home consdering WFH (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23679154)
Hacker News
the vast majority, even people in the USA, stated that they're moving back to their home town and parent's place.
broken shore
it's a smart move all things considered
Housing has become insanely expensive almost world round
marsh wind
Americans in my non scientific opinion get that because they have this idea if they all work hard they will be millionaires and they are constantly scared of losing their jobs so they don't speak their minds
@broken shore it is not because they don't speak their mind. More because of there is no job security per se
broken shore
Yes I 100%, though I'm trying really hard not to go too deep into talking about culture because that tends to veer into what people consider political
marsh wind
well yeah, I mean politics/culture aside
firing person in EU countries and US in something vastly different
broken shore
@crude crown I know when I was trying to launch a startup with a friend I moved back home where I am now, though I'll be moving out again soon once the pandemic subsides.
@marsh wind yeah, in Europe I don't believe at will employment is the norm like it is in the US
broken shore
that does however lead to the interview and onboarding process in European countries being a lot longer and arduous
which it should be imo
crude crown
unless of course you f'd up in a REAL major way
wait, it does?
I thought the length of interviewing processes were about the same in Europe and the US in general
at least in CS jobs.
crude crown
arguably, in the Europe they're even shorter sometimes.
I've read about some real horror stories from the processes in the US
broken shore
CS has a very long interview process compared to other professions
shadow moss
only ones with crazy processes is FAANG
marsh wind
it is very very company dependent
broken shore
^
shadow moss
most places it's phone interview/in person interview/offer
crude crown
I don't think it's only FAANG.
shadow moss
my company is phone/in person/offer
untold cradle
Albatross
crude crown
wow, that's really short.
shadow moss
FAANG and those who want to pretend they are FAANG
broken shore
honestly if a company isn't doing a worksample style evaluation they are making a huge mistake
crude crown
In my company it's relatively short-ish
shadow moss
worksample style?
broken shore
mhm, for CS it would be you are given a few days to solve some problem the company would typically deal with
crude crown
essentially, 1- HR call, 2- Take home exercise (4 hours or so), 3- Tech interview, 4- Interview with future manager, 5- Offer
do notice that I've called this one "short-ish"
broken shore
for example in the job I had now I had a work sample where I had to create a presentation discussing how a municipality could use behavioral change techniques to reduce the behavioral fatigue of social distancing
crude crown
there's a company here in my country which is quite a bit worse
shadow moss
that shit should be banned
crude crown
I think they had 7 stages or so
crude crown
yeah, it's the equivalent.
shadow moss
because you are filtering on those who have time to write that up outside working hours
so parents/those working two jobs
crude crown
Take home is kinda fair game, as long it doesn't take too long
2 hours max is kinda acceptable IMO
shadow moss
even Google is starting to realize it
broken shore
I belive what should be considered is the time requirment for it, not throw out the practice all together
crude crown
but yeah, it's annoying for sure
especially if you're in multiple processes at the same time...
broken shore
Work samples do have very high validity for job performance
shadow moss
time requirement self filters those who have time
broken shore
I would have to look into their adverse impact though, so I'll have to take that into consideration
shadow moss
if you have 4 jobs applications, that's 8 hours of time, if you are parent/working two jobs to break into the field, that's rough
marsh wind
in my case it was 1) phone, 2) tech-in-person, 3) HR+CEO+CTO. End of 3rd they said there will be an offer
but this was really short and fast
with respect to all previous interviews
shadow moss
like it frustrates me that people want to see github
I work 8-9 hours a day, I'm done coding after that
crude crown
Totally feel you on that.
but there's the expectation that we're "passionate" and we live and breathe code.
untold cradle
Here’s what you do. 1) turn the interview around (interview the interviewer). 2) tell them you salary and when you are starting 3) tell them which team you want to be on but say you’re open to others
shadow moss
machadojpf again, another one of those, ugh
crude crown
good luck finding a job with that approach, especially now that we're in an employer's market.
shadow moss
I've interviewed the interviewer and finished interviews early whne it was clear the fit was bad
untold cradle
It worked for me
shadow moss
I'm in high demand, I'm Sr level at this point
untold cradle
It’s also still an employees market
crude crown
you're a lucky one then and good job.
shadow moss
not at Sr. Level
untold cradle
Depends on how confident you are
shadow moss
very
untold cradle
They can sense it
crude crown
Can't argue with that.
untold cradle
They won’t let you get away if they think you can do the job easily
shadow moss
I hung up on recruiter, still got a job from them 3 weeks later
it was external recruiter
I'm nicer to internal
untold cradle
If you can project that image you’ll be fine
shadow moss
I've been in computer jobs before iPhone was a thing to date myself
untold cradle
Just believe in yourself and know that you can produce value far in excess of what they are paying you
crude crown
Don't agree with that "believe in yourself" stuff.
but I really agree that appearance is reality.
and it's something that has been bitterly hammered on me the past year.
untold cradle
Remember , the interviewer is a human just like you
They aren’t a Boolean function
shadow moss
esp at megacorps, so little of the job is code
untold cradle
Exactly
marsh wind
but there's the expectation that we're "passionate" and we live and breathe code.
I guess the further you are away from junior the less it's of issue.
shadow moss
Lossberg, it's more "Senior" level developers are in higher demand
untold cradle
You’re a problem solver
marsh wind
yes indeed Rabbit
shadow moss
you would be shocked how many people don't get out of level 1-2 out of 5
shadow moss
80/20 rules applies to most
marsh wind
so those who just start out have to prove themselves via various ways to get hire
shadow moss
80% of work is done by 20% of people
marsh wind
when you are out of that you are in demand
untold cradle
Haha yes
marsh wind
haha
untold cradle
Don’t even bother to look at the requirements
10 years of node.js I’m your man
15 years of embedded dev, is that it?
broken shore
@shadow moss alright, I'll give you something from my perspective as the person who does the hiring. I need to fill a position with a candidate, I have various options to do this in a good manner: structured interview, personality assessments, biographic assessments, cognitive assessments, work samples, ect.. I only have so many tools I can use on candidates who aren't in managerial positions that will actually have any validity towards job performance. Why would seeing a sample of someone's work not be a useful measure of if they would perform well on the job? Obviously it may be difficult to find the time to actually do the sample, which should be accommodated for in order to reduce adverse impact.
untold cradle
I’ve seen people with 20 years experience that can’t even copy a file on the CLI
crude crown
I don't even...
shadow moss
@broken shore because you are filtering possibly good people out, if you are ok with that, awesome
broken shore
experience doesn't always equate to competence sadly
@shadow moss issue is everything filters people out in one way or the other
crude crown
there's that sentence
broken shore
Interviews are generally the worst way to assess if someone is a good candidate
crude crown
10 years of experience might be one year of experience repeated 10 times
but I assume most people are familiar with that one
shadow moss
for hiring Jr Devs, we are just going to lottery it
crude crown
what I find more interesting and that I think will happen to me is
broken shore
that is a great way to lose a lot of money and time
crude crown
something like 20 years of experience which are 5 years of experience repeated 4 times
untold cradle
@broken shore I disagree. Mainly because it has the assumption that you are expecting a huge ROI on a new dev
If you want an experienced dev, just hire one. Don’t disguise it as a junior
The guys who consider themselves “junior” will self select out
broken shore
that's mostly because organizations have no idea what they are doing hiring wise
shadow moss
no one does, HR specialists will sell you on something, it's bullshit
marsh wind
what about those reffered by poeple in company or some people you kinda can trust to reffer ?
crude crown
@untold cradle the things you're writing are making me think. My confidence has been utterly destroyed this year, considering the crap that has happened to me
marsh wind
sometimes I think that the whole institute of HRs/recruiters as hiring managers is bullshit and totally rotten
shadow moss
it is, there just isn't a replacement that's better
broken shore
I'm an Industrial Organization Psychologist, we do know, people just don't use it and it isn't 100% guaranteed anyway. Yeah, anything with assessments or hiring is always some kind of lottery, but there is still science behind what is good practice and what isn't.
shadow moss
just like numerous other things
crude crown
in particular stuff on my job, I feel constantly lowballed and unvalued and I can't stop feeling that I'm just being constantly gaslighted.
broken shore
I only propose work sample because that is palatable as a solution, but not ideal
shadow moss
don't take really low offer but an offer in this climate is pretty good
best way to get your next job is at your current job
broken shore
@crude crown yeah that sucks man
untold cradle
I’m okay with a work sample but if it’s more than a couple hours of work they had better be serious about it
Like near the last stage
crude crown
oh man
untold cradle
@crude crown yeah maybe it’s just a bad fit where you are
broken shore
yes, work samples should be a final stage decision
front loading them is more work for everyone
crude crown
I have a funny story, I was on a process at the beginning of this year
and I was most likely going to join as an intermediate bordering a senior
had the final interview with the head of HR
dude didn't like me, was rejected
marsh wind
and he said "you're not good fit"
crude crown
he didn't even say that.
untold cradle
I’m gonna tell you right now that you need to stop classifying developers as jr intermediate and senior in your head
crude crown
I wasn't told the actual reason, but I'm pretty sure it's because I was too honest
untold cradle
It puts people in a box , set their floor and ceiling
broken shore
@crude crown that is an example of what I'm talking about, people have no fucking clue what they are doing
untold cradle
Not a good thing
crude crown
and I was negative about some stuff. I wished I followed your advice then @shadow moss 😉
shadow moss
We classify them for paygrade and review reasons
crude crown
now the company just received a big ass funding and they're on an hiring surge.
untold cradle
Yeah I just don’t think developers should classify themselves that way
broken shore
yeah, you wouldn't spend the same level of time and recourses on a low level hire than a mid range or senior one
I agree that flat hierarchies are probably better for developers so having those distinctions may not be useful, but then you would have to higher at much higher overall standards
untold cradle
I was an intern at a place where I had more technical skills than all but one of their “senior” guys
shadow moss
when you are writing some big stuff, a lower level developer that is just snapping all parts together is useful to have, AI will probably take those jobs at some point
untold cradle
The label is meaningless to me
broken shore
why were you an intern then?
marsh wind
jr, mid, senior != skill level, it's usually about where the person is in their career I think
untold cradle
@broken shore I hadn’t graduated at that point and it was thru the university co op program
broken shore
@untold cradle oh ok that makes total sense, sounds like a pretty shitty company if a university student has more technical skill than their senior people
crude crown
there's more companies like that than you think
untold cradle
Maybe, but I just feel like these classifications are basically useless in general
I’m in my late 30s btw
broken shore
@crude crown oh I'm really not surprised, I've been in a position where I am more skilled as an intern than all the people I work with the only difference being is that outside of development knowing all the internal minutia is very important to being an office drone.
@untold cradle yesh once you aren't in your early 20s classifications start to lose meaning as you stop being any different from your peers
untold cradle
@broken shore yeah you’re right about knowing all of that internal minutia. I generally try to avoid that stuff as much as possible and I usually get burned by it 😸
crude crown
curiously enough
on the interview I had with the head of HR of the process I was talking previously
he asked me
where I would place myself in terms of skills on my team
broken shore
@untold cradle oh yeah, I worked in government before, it was hell with that
crude crown
and I said I'm the 2nd person with most skills on the team... while technically true, I never should have said that.
untold cradle
Yeah me too, I’d ask the rest of the team to translate all the doublespeak to me afterwards (also worked for gov)
broken shore
@crude crown cancerous question, I hate HR people so much (saying this as an HR person)
so glad I work in consulting and research now
untold cradle
@crude crown say “I’m the best, period”
crude crown
wow, that would be even worse.
broken shore
then flip his fucking desk
untold cradle
Hahahha
I would say it
I wouldn’t flip the desk tho#
And no I don’t actually think I’m the best
It’s just a stupid answer to a stupid question
crude crown
just to trigger you a bit more loonsun, the guy also asked who knew me the best and what defects would they say about me
again, I was honest and I shouldn't have been.
broken shore
"they asked who knew me the best" alright not ba..."and what defects would they say about me" the fuck?
crude crown
it was a roundabout way of that typical question which is "what are my weaknesses" which would avoid rehearsed answers I guess
so basically yeah, didn't answer the right way on those... was rejected.
broken shore
also it's a bad question
like, what constrict is "weakness"? what part of the job does "weakness" correlate to?
people just have no fucking clue how to hire people and anyone who does an unstructured interview and says they do is lying
crude crown
mind you, this was the head of HR of the company and is someone in his 40's I guess, so it's someone with some experience for sure.
broken shore
in my experience, being good in HR and having experience aren't the same as the fundamentals of HR are pretty bad.
crude crown
hmm.. interesting.
broken shore
like, you can get really good at the administrative parts of HR, but there is no brains behind that
crude crown
right
well, this is great to know.
neither the tech and HR people know what they're doing during interviewing
broken shore
yeah, sorry to say that getting a job is a crapshoot because no one knows what they are doing really
crude crown
nah, I was kinda aware it was a crapshoot for a while now
I just wasn't aware that the obliviousness was also there in the HR part in such an obvious way.
broken shore
oh yeah, next time you interview for a job and the HR person doesn't follow a predetermined set of questions or score anything you say, know that the interview is essentially scientifically meaningless
crude crown
oh man, the interview was exactly that. It was a totally nonscripted interaction, the head of HR himself stated that.
your mind must be blowing up now
broken shore
mhm, that's called an unstructured interview, they have p values around .22 on a good day
nah, I'm used to it
not even surprised by it actually
marsh wind
oh yeah, next time you interview for a job and the HR person doesn't follow a predetermined set of questions or score anything you say, know that the interview is essentially scientifically meaningless
@broken shore how do you know if they do that?
Like there's no unique set of questions
broken shore
really depends on how obvious it is really
marsh wind
Or scoring answers
broken shore
a lot of the time you won't know, but sometimes they will literally have a score sheet in front of them
usually they won't be asking you questions like "where do you see yourself in 5 years" it's more like "Tell me the last time you met a difficult deadline and how did you manage to achieve your goals on time"
if they are asking you questions about your past behaviors, seem to keep to the questions and don't really go off on tangents, and if you see them marking things down after you answer every question, there is a high chance it's at least a semi structured interview
this won't tell you if they actually do something with it though, but it's a sign they at least know what a structured interview is
marsh wind
Ok that ressembles my last hr interview
broken shore
that's good at least
marsh wind
Well they hired me, so yeah
broken shore
at least you can be confident knowing that the HR people aren't totally incompetent
marsh wind
He seems alright to me yep
unkempt ferry
has anyone used an income sharing agreement? specifically thinking about working with placement.com but i'd love to hear real testimonials
wheat oxide
Not that kind, but I'd be wary without having a lawyer reviewing it for you (and only you)
unkempt ferry
💯 before i sign i absolutely am going to get a lawyer to look over it
broken shore
income sharing agreement? that sounds interesting, what are the terms?
vast shoal
@crude crown I think the best way to deal with interviews is to act like a sociopath. Tell the person you're talking to what they want to hear, as long as it can't come back and bite you in the ass later. Be honest only when it benefits you.
Avoid lying because it's dangerous, but definitely avoid telling the truth if it's not beneficial.
weary forge
that being said, I feel like if you are very good at showing off uniqueness then do so
Especially if the job in question is a little more extroverted
otherwise you might be seen as "too passive"
vast shoal
Only if you know what good uniqueness constitutes. I have a friend who's kind of a weirdo, and his attempts at being unique to stand out have always failed spectacularly.
weary forge
Definitely
crude crown
yup, that's exacly right dementati and that's something I've been doing more and more. I'll also second that "good uniqueness" bulletpoint.
sonic ether
Hi! I am a french speaker and tomorrow i will take the First exam. Anyway, I have a last question about the words "at" and "to". For example shall I say "to pay attention at" or "to pay attention to"? Both? Do you know how can I recognize which word to use? Thanks a lot
sonic ether
thanks @vapid jay !
vapid jay
English is not my mother languange, but I guess I can help you a bit more
Like.... you use the "to" most of the time when you mean a person you are listening to. Or "paying attention to". And if you use "at" you mean like... a place, thing or something like that.
I hope I helped you in some way haha
Good luck!
sonic ether
okay! thanks for your help (but we say: "to look at someone" 🙂 )
inner wrenBOT
scenic venture
anybody in 4rth year and panicking about career?
warped crypt
@scenic venture I wouldn't worry too much, the vast majority of companies will still be doing graduate recruitment and honoring existing graduate offers - graduates are great people to hire because you know they have a capacity to learn but they can be 'molded' to your company pathway, whilst still offering some new insights. Should be plenty of jobs around in the majority of countries 🙂
weary forge
agreed
unkempt ferry
@broken shore sorry I just saw this!
so there's a lot of variables, but its based off the increase of your salary. so you don't pay anything if you get a job making the same ammount or less than you currently make, and the percentage changes depending on how much more you make capping out at 10%, and the period changes depending on how much more you make as well capping at 18 months (i think it was) or when you hit 9k dollars whichever hits first.
there's another plan that has 5k relocation assistance which increases the time spent paying, but you still never pay more than 10%, and only if you make more than you used to. There's a tool you can play with on their home page if you scroll down to put in what you make now, and a slider for what you could make to see what the payment terms would be
zinc fractal
nice
marsh wind
?
crude crown
sorry
I was going to say that hell broke loose today in my company's Slack
basically, the company did some major bullshit in the past few months (which tried to justify due to COVID, good ol' COVIDwashing) and it was revealed to a lot of people and a thread was created with a shitload of people complaining and stating that they don't trust the company anymore.
never saw something like this in a company's internal chat.
what a clusterfuck
manic sable
wow....a huge incident indeed
crude crown
haha, pretty much
some bullshit was also revealed that left me really pissed off and I've talked straight away with the head of HR
no joke.
broken shore
wow, sounds like the company is having a mutiny
broken shore
welcome to business, it's a cesspool of psychopaths
crude crown
I mean, I guess.
but here it's way blatant
on other places it wasn't so obvious and intense.
having that said
I'll need to really start finding a new job.
broken shore
oh you really do
scenic birch
I have a very big ambition I want to learn to code so I can work at Apple
broken shore
that's a big ambition, good luck with that man
scenic birch
I’m actually trying to get enough to get a laptop so I can start really coding I can do some of it on my iPad Pro but it’s limited
obsidian acorn
@scenic birch weirdly enough, it's not that big of an ambition, but to be honest,
most engineers I know, unless they work in r&d don't like wokring for apple
but it is an a great company with great products
do you have a game plan on making that happen?
scenic birch
Yeah I need to save up for a MacBook Air and at least need to start make work at the Apple store selling there products
Working at Apple would be a dream come true for me
Swift doesn’t work on my iPad and the screen is cracked
Python works
bright laurel
@scenic birch dude dont buy a mac just build a hackntosh
scenic birch
Haha 😂
wheat oxide
Or run Linux and don't get ripped off
inland kiln
Hey is learning react native worth it?
Or should I learn swift and android studio(java) for app development
vapid jay
@crude crown I think the best way to deal with interviews is to act like a sociopath. Tell the person you're talking to what they want to hear, as long as it can't come back and bite you in the ass later. Be honest only when it benefits you.
@vast shoal how do I save discord messsages
marsh wind
@vapid jay in #bot-commands use .bm
tender frost
It sends to your dms
marsh wind
I don't remember honestly, try both
flat anvilBOT
tender frost
That shows the usage
marsh wind
it would be nice if help for the command states that we can use both ID/link
marsh wind
yes
vapid jay
I might as well just copy and paste the msg link to myself then lmao
how do I DM myself?
tender frost
The bot dms you the message
@vapid jay
Also this should really be in #community-meta so if you need anything else, pls move there
gaunt kernel
Hello can this channel help in guiding how to write cv's or just giving another look at a cv telling how to improve it
crude crown
yes
craggy elm
what are some things i should be able to show via projects as a software dev? i kinda want to transition to another place, but my background isnt in CS lol
craggy elm
congrats lol
jolly wedge
Congrats!
broken shore
you got this!
wild crown
Just started my first Python job. I'm as excited as I am stressed
@vapid jay
hey can you tell me more about your jo
job
vapid jay
It's Data Automation
vapid jay
I work on a US company on my country. Used to work a basic data entry job but had been studying python for a year
Spoke to my boss
He was very understanding
I'm on a trial period right noa
wild crown
i see
vapid jay
For a month
wild crown
must be very excited ?
vapid jay
Thank you 
upbeat elm
gl hf
neon moat
@vapid jay congrats! and good luck!
vapid jay
Thank you
sharp prawn
Congrats!!!!
Can you get a job with only Python Programming Knowledge ?
marsh wind
in principal, yes
vapid jay
In principal. Usually they also want SQL, Docker/Kubernetes etc
Usually though
I just lucked out with this
vapid jay
what do you have to do? @vapid jay
Automate processes the people at services use and help Sales with data
weary hearth
Question for any business/ data analysts out there: How often is linear programming used for solving business problems? I'm in a class(MS in Business Analytics) where we build objective functions using decision variables and cost constraints and then solve them with excel solver. The use of excel solver seems a bit outdated. What are your thoughts?
reef kayak
Anyone know what is the best way to contact recruiters for internships?
Like if I apply to a company on Linkedln then how could I contact them to learn more about the opportunity
crude crown
never saw or heard of a business analyst using anything related to operations research. Then again, I might not have been in the right industries for that.
and using an excel solver might be outdated, but it should suffice for didactical purposes.
broken shore
@reef kayak usually the hiring manager is on LinkedIn and you can contact them there, or you can look them up on the companies website
craggy elm
im not a betting man, but i'll put money on the fact that there are industrial engineers using excel solver
excel is basically the most cutting edge software you're gonna find in a factory lmao
dusky breach
Which makes more sense I studied for 2 years swift app development and looked for jobs and had a hard time landing one plus swift jobs are very limited now I’m learning python and will be looking into django , is the trend moving toward swift or toward python, but is app development taking over outside companies in-house apps
vapid jay
Hello! I'm a high school junior (grade 11) and considering a career in software engineering after college. I just started learning python online and I love it so far. Any tips on what languages are useful/ anything in general??
shut geyser
There is a c++ and python soft dev, with apparently dev ops role, with 20 years + of experience that applies at our sysadmin position in my company, that will be very technical.
My colleagues seems pretty excited by him, but i dont understand why he would apply on that position, he seems overqualified
We dont have much servers or users, just running factory and take care of users.
vapid jay
a job's a job @shut geyser , no?
wheat oxide
@shut geyser Might want an easy job
Or likes the area, etc. Not everyone wants to climb some imaginary ladder
marsh geyser
I Love this comunity
dawn zenith
Hi People,
Are we allowed to post our LinkedIn's to connect with new people?
Alex
dawn zenith
Hi People,
My name is Alex Maclean and I am a Software BSc student from the UK.
I have recently setup my LinkedIn account and am looking to connect with new indivuals and companies to grow my network.
Feel free to connect with me at https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexrbmaclean/
All the best,
Alex
upbeat elm
try connecting with people from your uni/course
craggy elm
academia teaches you to write like that lol
academia teaches you to write like that lol
can't really blame him
vapid jay
I applied to a programming job that doesn't even require a degree and was still rejected. fml
Is it just a really bad time to be looking for a job right now?
gilded valley
Now is not a great time to be looking, no. But keep in mind there's all sorts of reasons you might have been rejected, some out of your control - some not
vapid jay
ok
Man i hope i wasn't lied to when my Cs professors were telling me there's 3 jobs for every CS graduate
I work at walmart right now, and i want to get out of there so badly
i can't stand that place
it's just a sad place to work
no one wants to be there XD
it's so frustrating tho. Like i'm an A student and have a 3.9 GPA in college, and I feel like everyone on the internet knows way more than i ever will XD. I don't stand a chance
I'm probably competing against kids who designed their own programming languages and compilers at the age of 10
who know every programming language and framework
getting a degree is no longer good enough
broken shore
@vapid jay trust me, you'll get a job, this isn't a good time unfortunately as we are in the middle of a global crisis. I'd suggest if you want to stand out more try and contribute to some open source software to display your ability to work on large existing code bases.
vapid jay
Any open source projects you would recommend?
broken shore
I'll leave that to the senior devs here as I'm new to coding
open patio
you could contribute to one of our repositories: https://pythondiscord.com/pages/contributing/ | https://git.pydis.com/
or try and see what else is around github:
good first issue: https://github.com/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A"good+first+issue"+language%3APython
beginner: https://github.com/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A"beginner"+language%3APython
craggy elm
the seasonal bot would be a pretty good thing for me personally to dick around with once i finish this bot im workin on for a friend of mine
i know almost nothing about web stuff, so this discord stuff seems like an ok way to start learning
glacial lark
Hey guys, How do I go for a position likeProject Manager or Team Lead with a Bachelors in CS and Engg ? I really love to guide and help people and so I feel like this would be a good positon for me if I somehow make it to a corporate Company
vivid dock
Just a hunch, but I believe those positions are either hired directly with similar experience, or being promoted in a growing business
proven hornet
Quite happy about progressing at work 😊 I'm working as Sys Admin but i self-taught python and started to automate some tasks that we are doing there.
then i showed my code to the senior Engineer and he really liked it and suggested we work together on bigger projects in Python to automate stuff for the office 👌
I suppose that's one way to get exprience ><
neon moat
@vapid jay how many jobs have you applied to? applying to one job is not going to do anything, you need to keep applying and keeping building your own projects.
Try and tailor a cover letter specific to each company you apply for, especially in regards to why you want to work for that company. rather than just firing out a cv and expecting someone to read it.
You need to keep applying and get as many interviews as you can
@glacial lark you will be struggling extremely hard to be a project manager or a team lead for a software project, normally they are people with years/decades worth of experience in programming or similar experience
reef kayak
Would a recruiter more likely to respond to an email or a linkedln message sent by a candidate?
shadow moss
compared to?
reef kayak
Like for instance if I want to reach out to a recruiter about an internship should I send them a Linkedln invite to connect and message him/her from there or should I just email them
vapid jay
Problem is there aren't any jobs hiring that don't require a degree
the one job I applied to was specifically looking for computer science students from my university
that was my only realistic chance of getting a job in the near future
I have to wait till i get that degree
3 more years at least
I'll grind Leetcode all die long
day*
velvet kite
@rapid fern We do not allow paid recruiting in the server, it is against our rules.
rapid fern
sorry about that
wild crown
hey guys any suggestions what should i do after learning python syntax and exercises?
icy anvil
think about a problem you’d want to solve
ripe shard
@wild crown if you are a beginner, then search on the net for python problem and exercises which make you write programs.(big programs) After you have written enough programs(500 to 1000), you can create something you want.
At least that is how I did it
wild crown
i see
i'm currently exercising in coding bat
and project euler
with some hacker rank
ripe shard
very good.
Do stuff like that to get used to python. Also, read the documentation whenever you are free
explore the language. It is very vast. Will take you a few months to explore most of it(standard stuff I mean)
late compass
hey,i am a beginner who is currently doing a 4 hour course on python
after this course,i would like to make a game using python,but i thought that what the course would teach me would be too little,and there is also another 8 hour advanced course
broken shore
What is the course teaching you?
thorn surge
I'm probably competing against kids who designed their own programming languages and compilers at the age of 10
@vapid jay There is exactly 1 type of people out there who may not be willing to give you all the credit you deserve for good academics - people who are self-taught and pulled theemselves up by their 'bootstraps' in thee field. That is ok though, all you have to do to endear yourself to them is spend just a bit of tiime doing some self-directed projects and thus proving that you are lke them. Bonus points for having a git repo for your portfolio.
Think of it this way: college got your past HR screening and got you to the point where you could learn on your own to do your own projects. Your personal initiative will prove to your future colleagues that you're worthy of joining them.
shadow moss
I work with mix of coders from HS, self taught all the way to one with Doctors in Software something
it never comes up
broken shore
man that kid is way too hard oh himself and freaking out for nothing, like he's going into probably the easiest field to find a job out of college that pays decent. Chill man.
marsh wind
tbh I think self taught HS and PhDs have much more in common that people would realize
in some ways maybe even more than, say PhD and person with BSc or self taught and BSc
vapid jay
so into doing that you got to contack the owners
vapid jay
yeah i might be too worried
reef kayak
Hi, I was going over a bunch of behavioral questions asked in software engineer internship interviews and I am confused about how I would approach the question, “How did you resolve conflicts in the past ?” I am not sure how I can answer it since I have had no work experience in the past plus I never had any group projects in class. Any other possible ideas I could use in my answer?
broken shore
@reef kayak I sent you a guide specifically about answering those
unborn python
do you guys think that a bachelors degree in CS is good enough to get a job for like software development or game dev
summer roost
it is, yes. it won't teach you everything that you need to know to do the job well, but companies are used to onboarding people with a BS in CS, and they'll have strategies for bringing the new hires up to speed.
internships during college can help tremendously, as well.
reef kayak
Do side projects help a lot for a job?
I was told that internships does really helps when finding job but if you didn't get one you should still be able to still get a job
peak halo
I'm not speaking from experience (I graduate next year) but I think a lot of employers want a CS degree and some level of hands-on experience, and an internship is a good way to get that.
reef kayak
How though it is to get an internship?
Like at least a paid internship the company doesn't have to be the best or anything
peak halo
I thought I'd get one this summer but I gave up looking when covid hit the US, and it turns out a lot of internships for this summer were cancelled anyway.
my uni does career fairs where people who want interns will show up and advertise that they want them
and it also has a website that accumulates known internship opportunities
reef kayak
Yea I went to one during freshman year and most employers are like we accept sophmores
peak halo
yeah that's a problem
reef kayak
Plus now covid is an issue so I don't know how it is going to go
peak halo
it's probably that they either want to see how you do your freshman year, or they don't think the material covered in freshman year alone is sufficient for their internships
reef kayak
Though many freshman at my school got an internship but that is cuz they have tons of connections or they are just smart af
peak halo
or they are smart af, but mostly just have connections
I wouldn't read too much into why you didn't get one.
summer roost
It's not terribly uncommon for internships to require sophomores or higher - before that, lots of people don't have enough of a foundation for employers to build upon
peak halo
My academic advisor told me that intern employers in our area typically use the second course in our CS sequence to determine aptitude for their programs, and since those grades aren't posted until the start of the summer, only freshmen who got to take that class during their first semester have a chance at getting an internship
reef kayak
Damn really my second course was data structures and I did well in it
summer roost
I know my company's hiring 100% remote interns - though we have a very established internship program and are a relatively large company; I definitely buy that smaller ones might not be able to do the same, and there probably are fewer internships available this year than usual.
summer roost
in addition to career fairs, you can look for local companies with internship programs - lots of bigger companies have them.
some of the internships go to the very smart people, but plenty go to the people who put in a little bit more effort.
internships are tremendously useful because they teach you skills that you won't learn in your classes (collaboration, teamwork, correct use of version control, experience iterating on one project for a long time, etc), and because they help you figure out what you do and don't like to do.
an internship in game dev might very well teach you that you hate everything about how a game dev shop is run, heh
peak halo
I assume people often find out that game dev and game playing are fundamentally different and hate the whole thing?
summer roost
I've never worked in game dev, but I've heard that it tends to have ridiculously tight deadlines and a tendency towards "crunch time", and overworked engineers who burn out very quickly.
peak halo
😦
summer roost
which kind of makes sense - most types of software can be developed and released incrementally, and games really can't.
but also - when you're working on a AAA game, you're likely only working on one or two tiny little pieces of it - I imagine there's a lot of not being able to see the forest for the trees, too.
viral ridge
is devops less mouse and keyboard intensive than normal software engineering/development?
wheat oxide
I wouldn't think so
distant crow
devops still involves writing code (or configurations in YAML/JSON/HCL etc.), which is keyboard intensive. I suppose you use your mouse more to get around the various control panels and centralised logging interfaces than you would while programming 🤷♂️ it's not significantly different. After all, devops is about automating operations, and we automate it usually through writing code or configurations (or x-as-code)
as careers go, I would recommend thinking carefully about entering game dev. It's challenging, and unfortunately across the world game dev coders tend to be underpaid
here's a salary benchmark that I was sent, which lists expected salary ranges for programming positions in the UK. Note how much lower Game Dev is relative to other non-game-dev in other languages:
a senior level game dev is being paid at roughly the same salary bracket as a junior-mid python. My understanding is this is the same trend in the US as well, though I don't have the actual numbers
weary forge
It's kinda sad, reminds me of the "starving artist" tope
the dream job is the underpaid job
distant crow
it is sad, game dev isn't inherently any easier than non-game dev either
shadow moss
internships generally serve as recruitment pipeline for companies so other reason not to accept freshman is length of time on investment
and yes, game dev is lower paid because so many people are like "VIDEO GAMES ARE SO COOL, I WANT TO GAME DEV"
distant crow
it's also an excuse for cheap labour, which you'd hope doesn't happen, but it very much does
shadow moss
which truth is, game dev is no different then any other dev, you write code to do things
interns generally cost money
since they require so much supervision
and instruction
distant crow
yes, companies will leverage time. as long as a task is cheaper for an intern to do than someone with more salary, it makes more sense to do that
weary forge
Internship is an investment for the company, largely
distant crow
and yes, companies try not to hire an intern that costs more time than they save
it's supposed to be yeah
shadow moss
but again, you have to review their pull requests, teach them how their code will interact with rest of their products
it's investment in future
it's a cost while they are intern
you make up the cost from you get a jr dev that requires a ton less spin up time
distant crow
but let's face it, they're not going to turn down a source of low-cost labour. and as a result, interns get sacked with a bunch of task that aren't very interesting or don't require much supervision. coding interns doing data collection and cleaning, etc. etc.
not all companies have tasks for interns that make sense
shadow moss
our interns code for our products
distant crow
that's very good of you and your company
shadow moss
it's generally minor tasks (like building support portals)
and sure, some of it's scut work when we had intern build a MSSQL -> CosmosDB converter which was mostly write SQL queries and loading into big JSON document and tossing it at CosmosDB
and BTW, most coding isn't "interesting" you are solving business problems that are generally "well defined"
weary forge
I kinda like doing that though
You can always find opportunities to flex your python skills
shadow moss
it was written in C# but yea
weary forge
Oh right, we are talking gamedev lol
distant crow
when I say "interesting" I mean "relevant to job and skillset" versus "busy work with ultimately no experience value"
shadow moss
all work code writing is experience value
weary forge
^^^^
distant crow
I mean tasks that aren't coding
shadow moss
you learn how to write maintainable code, git in teams, pull requests and how reviews work, that's all stuff devs need if they are working in a team
distant crow
not every software job is purely coding all day, the two companies II've had hiring oversight in are involved in data science, and there's a lot of data cleaning
shadow moss
we have people working on 2TB MSSQL data sets
weary forge
dios mio
shadow moss
and interns get stuck "data cleaning", they are doing it with code
distant crow
at least your data is in MSSQL, imagine data coming in in spreadsheets
no consistent formatting
distant crow
can't even code that. Open spreadsheet, figure out what the end user has done with the data, clean, ingest, repeat 1000x
weary forge
and here I am, sitting with 0 work experience and just thinking of how much data could really fit in 2TB
shadow moss
you can
convert spreadsheet to CSVs, go through all header data, try and figure out if there is any consistancies
weary forge
At the prime of my gaming life, my HDD was nearly full... and that was 1TB
shadow moss
emanueljg, it's marketing data on most of US population
weary forge
oh. right
distant crow
I think you are overestimating the consistency of the data, but anyhow, I don't think we need to argue about whether data cleaning can be automated or not
weary forge
like, "data cleaning" sounds abstract
shadow moss
data cleaning generally means a bunch of CSVs get thrown at you, you need to figure out how to get the data into format you find acceptable
weary forge
🤔 right
shadow moss
and sometimes it might mean double checking it
distant crow
now imagine people have 10 to 20 years of undigitized data, nobody's sticking to the same format
weary forge
the fact that there is no universal CSV standard is a crime
why can't people just stick to one way
shadow moss
for example, we get name + address and API we have access to is address standardizer that turns addresses into proper format
so you have to pull data out of CSV, make sure Address Standardizer approves, take changed one then stick in database
distant crow
it's not even CSV format itself, it's the data itself, the units, the fact that most of the time it comes from a spreadsheet with fancy formatting and columns and designs - merged cells, etc. etc.
weary forge
god, that sounds like a pain
shadow moss
we have mostly automated processes for our sources
they send over CSV, we run C# console application to load
weary forge
I just imagine myself hunched over my laptop and squinting at heaps of small lines of data just trying to make out what the client was thinking with the data format
distant crow
as for a lot of data, we process satellite data, and... there's a lot of it
weary forge
Yikes
distant crow
half a petabyte was where we got up to, but at least that part is nicely consistent (mostly)
weary forge
At least the overall concept of the data that you are handling is a little more interesting
distant crow
but as you can see...there's a lot of manual data work, and it's nowhere near as easy to automate as Rabbit's data
which means someone has to do it, and it's a thankless job, and the person doing it probably isn't picking up many career skills other than being good at looking at spreadsheets
inevitably the most junior employees get stuck with that from time to time (hopefully not for their entire time at the business), and if you think about it - you're not going to let a senior developer spend their time futzing around in a databes when someone who gets paid 1/6th what they are can do it
shadow moss
that sucks you can't get consistancy
in most data jobs, you can get SOME consistancy
distant crow
this is unfortunately the un-human side of running a business, it's called time-leverage. High-value, high-skill/experience employees should spend as much time as they can doing the things that their background and experience can afford them, and things that can be done by more junior employees should be delegated downwards
as soulless and mechanical as that sounds, business operate this way
as a result, pooling around the bottom of the stack are the unfortunate interns. Now, you hope that the company has schemes and training that does better than "all the remaining tasks nobody paid more is going to do"
and that was my point earlier:
but let's face it, they're not going to turn down a source of low-cost labour. and as a result, interns get sacked with a bunch of task that aren't very interesting or don't require much supervision. coding interns doing data collection and cleaning, etc. etc.
not all companies have tasks for interns that make sense
I meant to say "not all companies have tasks for interns that make sense [for the intern's career development]"
the cynical view here is that some companies exploit interns for cheap labour. Be aware of it when applying for an internship position, you don't want to waste your time being made to do work like this
marsh wind
data consistency, ooph tell me about it
we have 4 clients that are all in same business
and in some cases they all have data in same format
but it ended up they managed to mess it up anyeay
and for other types of data, they just all use different ways to store it
and in mostly i excel spreadsheets
so we gotta figure out how to put it all in our DB
distant crow
yup, sounds like a pain
weary forge
Uh, boring question here
but @shadow moss @distant crow @marsh wind don't have to specify if you want to, but do you consider your pay good?
distant crow
personally?
weary forge
Right
distant crow
interesting question...
there's a few factors here;
- I did take a paycut due to coronavirus and economy
- I'm maybe 7 or 8 years into my career and tend to go for management-level jobs that match my specialisations
shadow moss
Yes
distant crow
so I guess the only answer I can give is "I can't really complain, there are many worse off. But I feel it's under market rate. enough so that in about 3 months I'm going to quit"
marsh wind
not too good but generally my own fault as they pushed me to givea number
and i did not dare to ask more lol
weary forge
Hm, I see
There are so many follow-up questions I want to ask but it's unreasonably many, lol
obsidian acorn
feel free to go ahead and ask
rate is definitely something that you want to consider in your career
obsidian acorn
keeping in mind it can hinder your personal development as well
weary forge
Definitely
distant crow
for mine, a lot of docker, Kubernetes, and a bunch of DevOps stuff. on Python, numpy, the scipy stuff, pandas, openCV are the only specific ones, but I suspect flask/tornado, sqlalchemy helped and your common backend stuff. but the rest were domain specific tools that happen to have python bindings: gdal a big one
but as I mentioned I wasn't hired as a programmer
marsh wind
but as I mentioned I wasn't hired as a programmer
same, for me it was python, and things like pandas numpy,plot libs, sklearn
marsh wind
!resources have plenty of links to quality learning materials. The best for starting out, according to many people is automate the boring stuff book @indigo ice
inner wrenBOT
weary forge
Yeah the issue is the fact that I consider myself decent at pure python but I have hardly ever ventured outside, to different libraries or such
I might have to do some projects with those libs you mentioned, thanks
distant crow
I think the two main directions you can go with python are:
- scientific computing for data science, and AI. In which case look at numpy, pandas, scipy, matplotlib, jupyter, and if AI the popular AI libraries like TF, pytorch, keras, etc.
- backend. In which case look at flask, tornado, sqlalchemy/alembic, and depending on the kind of backend you're doing, maybe a little bit of devops, maybe task queues, maybe connecting to various kinds of database
Most important of all is build projects
weary forge
Most likely it's written by some bitter guy that wish he passed or something
naive sentinel
idk, it just got me kind of worried
weary forge
I know a lot of dum dums that manage it
covert scaffold
^
it's a wide field with much depth, that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it
but that can be said for most professions
naive sentinel
I am quite a beginner when it comes to coding, and even doubt my skills when not being able to solve a simple problem
covert scaffold
well, you have to begin somewhere
weary forge
The 1% of CS grads build software for the other 99% (the lackeys) to maintain and make small, minor alterations to
there's a kernel of truth to this
but only a kernel
naive sentinel
thats why I would also think that its easier to memorize stuff than to do problem solving (I dont know anything about CS tho, so im not sure what it focuses on)
weary forge
But the top of the career tier list will always be what you love doing
- Something you love doing
- Something you are good at and makes fat stacks
- Something you are good at
- Something you don't mind doing
- Something you chose purely because of tactical advantage
Anything below 5 is garbage
this was inspired by a copypasta I read like a year ago, can't remember the tierlist verbatim
naive sentinel
I am just worried that I am overestimating my skills, so I don't want to disappoint myself. I never really enjoyed math, and while programming might be fun and all, but studying CS probably would be torture for me haha:)
wheat oxide
@weary forge The 1%/99% numbers are obviously wrong
weary forge
Yeah
They are, but the general idea of the huge interval of skill and ambition generally is
wheat oxide
@naive sentinel Programming is a very useful tool. It can be applied to practically any important problem. There are just many problems that programming alone won't solve.
wheat oxide
I'd put "What is important" above any of those
naive sentinel
I feel like I don't ''love'' any subject tbh
weary forge
@wheat oxide As in for society?
naive sentinel
but I like the thought of being a software engineer
wheat oxide
@weary forge That's one way to look at it, sure.
weary forge
Then you got your answer, CS it is
naive sentinel
I was always the guy sitting in front of his PC all day, and I would also enjoy having some type of WL balance.
weary forge
Well, in my opinion what you love usually is what's best for society, since when you live a life you enjoy doing you enhance the society around you
unless you have a real passion for selling drugs
wheat oxide
@naive sentinel Math comes with a variety of annoyances that CS doesn't. Typically you will study math as part of CS though.
weary forge
or mudering infants
naive sentinel
The other career choices would be finance (investmentbanking etc. where I would have no life and work 70+ h weeks) or medicine. But I enjoy being ''free'' and having the opportunity to work anywhere really. I think CS would give me that.
weary forge
If you don't like math but like programming then you had a bad introduction to math in school. That holds true for 95% of people I find.
wheat oxide
@weary forge That's definitely not true for many, if not most, people
wheat oxide
@weary forge Many people love things that are largely unimportant
naive sentinel
@naive sentinel Math comes with a variety of annoyances that CS doesn't. Typically you will study math as part of CS though.
@wheat oxide I was doing decent in math while in school, but it just bored me tbh.
weary forge
I mean "make society better" in a more long-term sense
naive sentinel
@wheat oxide I was doing decent in math while in school, but it just bored me tbh.
@naive sentinel atleast I didnt have a ''passion'' for math 🙂
weary forge
if you enjoy life then you can spread that joy to others
making other members of society more productive as a result
which causes butterfly effect
wheat oxide
@naive sentinel The rails society offers you are largely stupid. There are practical concerns you shouldn't ignore, but you should ignore them in figuring out your real goal.
weary forge
Even if, say, a doctor is useful for society then that won't mean anything if I become a doctor which has a shitty attitude and makes life-threatening mistakes
distant crow
I think you have to be balanced, CS isn't the best option for everyone, we shouldn't talk about it like it's the one true career and nothing else is worthwhile
I think you can find worth in anything you do - artists, historians, physicists, even PHP developers have some worth
weary forge
Objection on the latter profession
wheat oxide
@weary forge That's more likely to happen if you aim for prestige or wealth or other bullshit. If you can graduate medical school, there is lots of flexibility in medicine
weary forge
Well, whatever
just b urself™️ and do what you love doing and life will generally work out
wheat oxide
Nah
weary forge
even if you become the starving artist you will have won at life
wheat oxide
No, not true
weary forge
@wheat oxide why not? 
wheat oxide
Because starving artists testify otherwise
naive sentinel
you have to make sacrifices imo
weary forge
they are just weak 
well, my outlook on it is that you will have won at life, but that's my personal outlook, and since I'm the one giving advice, then that's what advice you will get
wheat oxide
And others, like me, will make sure such bad advice is ignored
weary forge
But bring in a bitter social studies major and you will probably get an issue with bitter resentment 🤷
(not referring to you, by the way, I realize it could sound like that)
The duality of man I guess
naive sentinel
i might want to drive a lambo and pop 300$ bottles on the weekend, and if that wont be possible (or extremly unlikely) as an artist, then I would have to sacrifice some of my happiness (when it comes to a job), so I can life the life I like (moving to other countries, buying a big house etc. ..) You probably heard it, but I would rather cry sitting in my rolls royce, than on a bus 😉
not entirely representing me btw, I dont drink alcohol lmao
wheat oxide
@naive sentinel I'd rather be on a bus and not be a garbage human
weary forge
@naive sentinel I have the similar outlook on life generally
luckily, that's doable with what I love doing
But then that's what you love doing (earning fat stacks) and such you should go for the education that gives you that opportunity
wheat oxide
You should get an education that helps you realize that such pursuits are stupid
naive sentinel
I just wanted to say that lots of things can be compensated by others, in this case, you might only do what you like, but not ''love'' as a job, but in return get more happiness in other parts of your life. Obviously highly depends on the individual himself. Many people might be happy without having much.
wheat oxide
*more happy
naive sentinel
or doing what they like is already more than enough*
ty lol, not an english native speaker 😛
weary forge
It's a perfect valid outlook in life
It's not like rich people don't exist
As long as you secure a healthy lifestyle then go right ahead
Afaik the way to go is to become an entrepreneur
wheat oxide
@weary forge Then pursuing money is already disqualified.
It's in opposition to health
weary forge
That's a fallacy
wheat oxide
You're bullshitting
covert scaffold
it is a fallacy though..
naive sentinel
Afaik the way to go is to become an entrepreneur
@weary forge well, if you have the right idea and know the right people.. why not 🙂
covert scaffold
if you can make money while in the persuit of happiness, what's wrong with that
wheat oxide
@covert scaffold You're bullshitting too then
weary forge
The stereotype of the rich man crying himself to sleep because he's depressed is quite possibly one of the most despicable stereotypes in the modern western world
weary forge
because there is only one subclass of people wanting to keep that lie circulating
and that is the rich people themselves
Keeps poor people poor and rich people rich
(in extremely simplified terms)
wheat oxide
That's not just simplified, it's wrong
wheat oxide
Which is called anecdotal evidence, an actual fallacy
weary forge
You are saying you can't be healthy and be rich
do you realize how strange that sounds?
wheat oxide
"It" being...
weary forge
@emanueljg Then pursuing money is already disqualified.
It's in opposition to health
Right.
weary forge
Pursuit of money
wheat oxide
That's quite distinct from having money
distant crow
I don't think this is a healthy conversation, but I'll just say this: I've run a startup. what drives me isn't necessarily the pursuit of money. I like making cool shit. and I've come to realize that the coolest shit requires more than one person to do it, and so I ended up building a company to help build the cool shit
now... to continue building the cool shit, that company has to be financially self-sustaining
and so in the pursuit of building cool shit, we have to make some money too
and people have families to feed, so we pay them salaries
weary forge
To get rich you gotta pursue money, as well as pursue doing cool shit that makes people want to buy your cool shit
distant crow
now, sure there are people who are only in it for the money, but to say that needing to make money is an antithesis to other pursuits is not correct, it goes hand in hand
wheat oxide
@weary forge No you don't
distant crow
things are "cool shit" to me because it is things that people need to use - I am solving a problem for them. There is inherantly value there
after all, this is human progress. We didn't progress by making useless things
wheat oxide
@distant crow Much of the coolest "shit" ever made was done without money
covert scaffold
"most"
weary forge
That is a very dangerous statement
distant crow
you're free to think that, but to deny what makes things "cool" to other people is ignorance
weary forge
Fire was discovered without green paper bills
distant crow
it's subjective. I get that you don't like for-profit things in principle, but to claim that this is the only way to think is, quite frankly intolerant of other viewpoints
weary forge
after that, I am having a hard time coming up with anything else
wheat oxide
@distant crow False
weary forge
????
distant crow
it's ok to have that opinion
wheat oxide
You're projecting thoughts into my head that aren't there
weary forge
Your standpoint is not impossible to argue for @wheat oxide but you are using the completely wrong points
wheat oxide
My standpoint stems from the prevailing evidence in science
distant crow
I think we've established that some people like money, some don't on principle. these are valid viewpoints
weary forge
People can have multiple things that drive them forward, they can be mutually exclusive, they can coexist
making cool shit and pursuing money can coexist
wheat oxide
@distant crow None of those people are me
distant crow
I think we've established that some people like money, some don't, and some are zoidfarb. these are valid viewpoints
weary forge
lmao
wheat oxide
There are plenty of others besides me
weary forge
zoidfarb is a singleton type
wheat oxide
Including billionaires
weary forge
and what defines your subgroup then?
weary forge
That is a completely pointless standpoint
What does it even signify?
I don't pursue money to literally watch numbers rise, I pursue it to be able to do/own cool shit that enhance my life
wheat oxide
If you're presuming it's pointless, you should go and study confirmation bias
weary forge
(not an argument)
distant crow
yes, +1 on the cool shit
but also at some point I'd like to do some work to help people learn to program/do engineering. but that's a ways of, that's like a retirement project
weary forge
Same