Definitely wouldnt brand paper handed in
#career-advice
vapid jay
gilded valley
The character would look pretty cool and appropriate on a site - but if you haven't got the license, I'd probably avoid it
vapid jay
And you're right, I have to find something that is mine. My mentality was, "I cant find the person who made this, Im just gonna use it."
But thats not professional
shadow moss
or just don't mention it
gilded valley
That is the most realistic option - but it kinda sorta breaks rule 5 if you squint hard enough
which is why I didn't suggest it
vapid jay
I really would prefer to do my due dilligence, tbh. I would prefer to just have an artist that I can find the person who made it and talk to them and link back to their page.
Because I know there is such an artist.
I just couldnt find this one
shadow moss
If you know the artist, credit them, if not don't mention it, however, if you are applying for design jobs, expect it to come up
vapid jay
Right
shadow moss
see if you can find public domain replacement
shut geyser
Or commission an artist to do something close
still condor
Replicate the image with HTML&CSS :)
blazing harbor
Im just a kid in 9th grade 🤷🏿♂️
burnt tiger
In most cases, I've found that you can cover your bases by simply leaving a comment with a link to the original source. Especially if you're using it for non-commercial purposes, most people won't care. Just be sure to check the licensing rules of w/e site it was taken from, if there are any.
soft swift
@blazing harbor lol ok
strong cove
Has anyone here learned to code on their own and landed a career without a degree?
@ me
marsh wind
check out the pinned message here @strong cove https://ptb.discordapp.com/channels/267624335836053506/470889390588035082/614161247272960011
burnt tiger
In the meantime, you can also make use of Discord's search feature to look for previous discussions in the channel on that topic, it's been brought up many times
and that
soft swift
i dont think u can land a career without a degree
and if so there are many risks involved
burnt tiger
That's most certainly wrong @soft swift. It requires significantly more investment in projects and more time spent building up a portfolio to show your experience, but a degree is by no means required.
That being said, I consider pursuing a degree to be a worthwhile endeavor and is certainly an easier path towards building a career in software development
vapid jay
That is a great post that you linked to on Reddit. It actually makes me feel pretty good because I am on the path that guy is on.
I know from seeing people around the web that it happens. I dont expect to get on with Google or even get a prestigious position. At this point, I just like programming enough that Id rather do that. Its what I do anyway. It just makes sense to consider it, although it isnt the primary motivation for me.
I program because its in me to program.
burnt tiger
I can also speak from some experience that employers and technical recruiters are more than happy to reach out to those with significant experience and projects under their belt. I'm currently in college finishing my B.S. degree (final year), and was contacted by multiple FAANG companies (facebook and amazon specifically) and local technical recruiters. They contacted me entirely based on my contributions to Python, not because of a degree.
soft swift
hmmmm and the fact that your in college
burnt tiger
I declined the offers for the time being because I'm prioritizing finishing my degree first, but it does go to show that the degree itself isn't what they primarily value
Also, I go to a rather un-notable community/state college, and am persuing a non-CS degree. The degree program is titled "Information Systems Technology" and I'm specializing in the computer programming track.
marsh wind
oh wow, I had no idea you are still in college. based on discussions in #async-and-concurrency I though you had your degree and are working in industry for a while
burnt tiger
@soft swift While some of the recruiters may have been aware that I was a college student, the one from facebook contacted me via email entirely based on my GitHub activity.
marsh wind
I guess that is another proof that it is not about a degree at all
burnt tiger
soft swift
programmers dont make as much as doctors and lawers but idc i still love it
marsh wind
it is not all about the money. also not everywhere doctors make a lot
vapid jay
I dont have incredibly high expectations. But the more that I do this everyday, I can imagine when Ive been doing this for longer than a year, have still been doing it next year, the year after that... It doesnt make sense to not apply for it. But in truth, I'm kind of old (34) to be career switching to jump into junior dev position.
Actually... um... I was expelled from university and went to jail like 12 years ago. So umm.. I'm not exactly unblemished prodigy guy. For years it was hard for me to get any job because of criminal history (nonviolent, not theft).
But uhhh yeah. I plan to apply when I think I'm good enough, but thats not why I do it. I just like to do it. Having a job doing it would be validation for me more than an issue of money, which TBH, I'm not really in need of money.
soft swift
ohhh i now see
burnt tiger
@soft swift You might be surprised then to hear that senior software engineers in some of the top companies make several hundred thousand USD per year. But that's certainly not the average developer.
soft swift
hmmm programming seems alot better now
burnt tiger
I'm certainly not in it for the money though, and probably would not want to work in many of those positions myself. The work-life balance tends to be not so great at those companies
vast shoal
Even the average software engineer is generally very well compensated in most places, I think, relatively speaking.
burnt tiger
@vapid jay You might be able to get into freelancing positions more easily than junior dev, but a criminal background can make things rather difficult. Especially if you live in the US
soft swift
yh
marsh wind
@vapid jay don't give up though. I saw stories of people who went to jail and managed to get through after. One prominent example is this guy https://twitter.com/hahnscratch
Twitter
soft swift
jobs r gonna be hard to get but nothing good in life ever comes easy
burnt tiger
Definitely @vast shoal. I would estimate that the average software engineer makes between $60-80k. Some sources list as high as $85k for the US on average, but that might be a bit on the high end.
soft swift
seems great
marsh wind
it's strongly city/state/country dependent though, you have to think of everything where your salry will go, aka insurance, rent, etc. Just pure numbers can be quite misleading
burnt tiger
Indeed, cost of living is a significant factor.
soft swift
ahh the stats
marsh wind
especially when you do US vs Europe
and even within Europea countries there are some contrasts
soft swift
loss or aeros what did u do to get into college volunteer work?
mint citrus
I wouldnt mind a pay raise where im working
Im actually looking to get western like salaries at another company
raises were canceled this year too because of covid 😦
soft swift
dang
burnt tiger
I personally started off with a voluntary internship on a local government development team, but 99% of my relevant experience has been from contributing to open source software.
soft swift
good to know
burnt tiger
Prior to that, I built up my programming skills using code challenge websites such as Codewars and a few personal projects.
mint citrus
did you correct the spelling in all those readmes?
soft swift
hmmm
burnt tiger
@mint citrus Haha, my first PR to CPython was actually a grammatic improvement to the FAQ. But, after I got more familiar with the workflow, I started working on bug fixes and significant features.
mint citrus
lol
soft swift
at what age did u start doing all that
vapid jay
I need to involve myself in an open source project. I keep saying that, but I dont do it. Typically because Im usually busy with my own idea. But there are times between enthusiasm for projects where I think, "Hrm, what should I do" and during that time I usually just play witrh different libs rather than take anything seriously.
I should use that time to try to contribute.
burnt tiger
Then, I was added to their triage team, and just recently (as of last month) was promoted to the position of Python core developer, which gives me commit privileges to CPython and the other core repos.
mint citrus
just do your own projects. thats fine as well
vapid jay
Since I think that is probably the most valuable way someone like me can show that I can work on a project
Yeah, but my own projects are things that only I will ever care about.
I mean maybe one day it wont be like that
But so far thats how it is
soft swift
yh but aeros what age did u start doin projects
burnt tiger
It's more for building experience and a portfolio than anything else
vapid jay
yeah, well Im definitely doing that.
The main thing about my developing portfolio is that.... the things I made last year I dont think are portfolio ready. And in a year, the things Im wroking on now will not be portfolio ready.
Do you keep all those things in your portfolio despite being that way, or do you have to go back and get them portfolio ready
burnt tiger
@soft swift It depends what you would define as a "project". I wrote my first Python roulette program at ~15 or so.
craggy wave
There's nothing wrong with showing your development, @vapid jay
A portfolio in 2020 isn't a static thing anymore
vapid jay
fair.
craggy wave
You have GitHub to dynamically keep up to date. Just make sure that your most visible projects are those that you want seen.
mint citrus
I dont have a portfolio anymore
vapid jay
Right.
mint citrus
after a few jobs they dont really look there
craggy wave
And, try approaching those projects as if they were serious work projects, including a good git history
mint citrus
^
craggy wave
Development is about much more than just the code you produce
mint citrus
I actually have setup proper workflows for my projects
vapid jay
No bad commit messages I guess 😛
mint citrus
so I can show that I know how to set that up
vapid jay
the main thing I need to work on is i need to stop saying, "This isnt worth being on github."
Because like you said, that stuff will fall to the bottom on its own
And there is so much more ive done that whats on my github
mint citrus
i dont upload everything ive ever done on github personally
unless its a complete Idea I already have. then ill upload that and update it as I work
burnt tiger
With unlimited private repos though available to everyone now, I don't think there's any harm in initially uploading most significant projects privately, and then deciding to publish it later down the road.
mint citrus
prob tru
vapid jay
""Would you like a drink of coffee/water before we start" the answer to this is YES PLEASE! You will need that water to sip on when your mouth goes dry! haha! I've been there!" -- from the reddit post with the guy who got the job without degree
vapid jay
I am terrified of interivews that are significantly less stressful. I think it is learned behavior from years of being denied jobs over a criminal background. Though, it has not come up in any job interview for at least five years now.
Around when it first happened, it would be very disappointing to go to interviews.
And the feeling has never left
mint citrus
huh
vapid jay
That being said, I dont perform badly at interviews.
Its just they are a big deal for me psychologically.
There was a question on a dating site i remember that was like, "Which is more stressful? A first date or a job interview"
and I'm the type of person who has to pump myself up for the interview. The date, idgaf
mint citrus
I just get nervous about switching jobs
vapid jay
Right
mint citrus
i dont like not getting paid for a period of time
vapid jay
I don't cope with rejection very well when it comes to job interviews, because I almost always leave the interview thinking, "That went really well."
And when I don't get it, I don't understand why... and it puts me in this state where Im kind of down.
I have to resist giving up if I get turned out.
mint citrus
yeah I wish people would give feedback on interviews
soft swift
ahahaha jus devote time and effort into becoming a great programmer
and those ceo guys will be begging for u to join them
vapid jay
That will never happen for me haha. But Im ok with that.
soft swift
yup
indigo sleet
Every company does, that's kind of the point..
mint citrus
for their grand idea that prob is dumb anyways
my linkedin is full of those people 😦
burnt tiger
Your optimism is nice @soft swift, but it's not always that easy. It does take building specific demonstrable experience rather than sheer effort and time alone, but that's certainly a good start.
mint citrus
thats why internships are great if you can get them
burnt tiger
Anyways, let's not discuss ethics or dislike of CEOs in here, that would be better suited towards the off-topic channels.
mint citrus
idk how students make it through uni without ever doing an internship
thick sierra
Seriously, focus your time into being a problem solver and learning how to quickly adapt and learn new languages, tools etc. Thats how you become great. Youre not expected to know everything about Python, Java, JavaScript or C. But you are expected to know how to plan what you want to build and know how to find the information for each puzzle piece.
vapid jay
I'm fairly certain that my learning path is on point. The skills are related to each other. The next project builds on the things learned from the last project. It's in that sense not a scattered mixture of playing around. Mostly everything I've done has been towards more web dev skills.
Right now I just need to keep it up, keep writing to the devblog I have, keep posting projects to github
soft swift
yh problem solving is the core to programming
mint citrus
also knowing the right way to solve something. which comes from experience
thick sierra
That too, theres alot of things that "come from experience". But heres a trick; you dont have to have the experience. Just look for "industry standard" solutions that are similar to your issue. And more often than not, the most simple solution is the one thats used.
vapid jay
yeah, that is a lesson I have learned, is to research what is out there and use the tools that are being used before trying to improve them.
Definitely one of the first things I learned was that
mint citrus
ya
thick sierra
The only time things get weird is if you have to develop for over-night scalability. Thats when you need to know things like time-complexities and if youre working with servers, micro-services
vapid jay
That is something I have no experience in. I have no experience with people using the things ive made or there being a sudden server load.
thick sierra
@burnt tiger can i talk about CTO's in here? Or should i just let myself out...
vapid jay
Im going to get to bed anyway, thanks for the talk ❤️
thick sierra
No problem, have a good night
mint citrus
wait is there an off-topic channel here?
vast shoal
@mint citrus There are three, in the off-topic category.
soft swift
theres a lot of channels here
thick sierra
idk, i did too until just now
mint citrus
there were a lot of changes since I first joined
thick sierra
I joined like 2 months ago from a random reddit link. I was looking into using tkinter and wanted a lifeline if i got stuck. Thankfully i never needed it. I have to push myself to finish the styling and make my app look pretty now though and its killing me as a side project
burnt tiger
@thick sierra If you want to talk about CTOs from a career perspective that's fine, I was just redirecting general rants about CEOs to the off-topic channels
This channel is intended to specifically be focused on career development.
mint citrus
was my bad i know
thick sierra
Got it okay lol
marsh wind
loss or aeros what did u do to get into college volunteer work?
@soft swift hm.... I've not done any volunteer work 😑
swift veldt
Volunteer work or any extracurricular activity isn't viewed the same in France. It's okay.
The emphasis on those is very much something American/British--or so I've seen so far.
shut geyser
Depends on your social background i've seen
swift veldt
one's people portfolio does help, eheh.
shut geyser
I'd say doing this sabattical/volunteering work is still very popular (like thailand and australia, then place with high poverty in asia)
But it's more like a social thing, than a boosting your cv, from my personal anectodical observation
(In France)
swift veldt
from my also anecdotal experience in France, the only places where sabattical/volunteering would quite matter is when applying to Grande Ecole de Commerce (i.e. business schools) where the "entretien de personalité" (i.e. the jury interview) will question about extracurriculars.
shut geyser
- bonding over with people having the sane type as experience, which i seen often
My time volontering for boardgame associations and festivals in the West of France didnt give me any points 😩
swift veldt
when I did my personality interview, I spoke about my PnP municipal club.
it was enough to get into a top 5 business school it seems
shut geyser
Ahah
swift veldt
"let me talk to you about the most complex character creation system known to mankind, also called Agone, by fellow French fantasy writer Mathieu Gaborit"
shut geyser
Its worse than Anima ?
swift veldt
quintessential worse is Agone tbh.
shut geyser
Im shivering
swift veldt
Mathieu Gaborit has some sadistic drives about those
be it in Agone or Chroniques des Féals.
anyway, I don't know the experience with regards to extracurriculars in Engineering Schools.
since... I've never been to one
I'm off to start my stem degree next September.
very hyped about it.
marsh wind
Volunteer work or any extracurricular activity isn't viewed the same in France
well most part of my life I did not live in France, and when I did start to live here volunteering and stuff like that was way out of priorities
dense zealot
hi
ivory dust
Are there any Python developers here?
fringe trellis
yes
opal perch
no way man, there are python developers in a python server? Who woulda thought
lavish geyser
ive never used python
crude crown
@vapid jay I just read what you wrote earlier today or yesterday
I'd like to think that it's never too late for someone to switch careers
however, you should be aware that the SW industry (especially in USA from what I can read) is an ageist one.
vapid jay
I believe it. It doesnt help that my philosophy of ideal software design is not a young persons either.
crude crown
Having that said, I've worked previously with people who switched their careers while in their mid 30's and with kids into programming.
what's your philosophy then?
vapid jay
Well, generally speaking, without going off topic in a massive diatribe, I think that the modern capitalism of startups are fundamentally and ethically flawed. I think that they gather and use data in a way that is irresponsible. etc, etc, etc
That being said, its not like I would go n a philsophy rant at an interview lol
crude crown
I agree 100% with you on that
and yet
here I am working in a job where my shit is going to be used to track the work of people who work in call centers
I'm a surveillance enabler at the end of the day
what I mean with this is
I think you'll find a lot of people who think like you and me still working on "immoral" stuff anyway
because... we want the money
(okay, this is taking a dark turn)
Ideally, I would work on stuff that would actually really help people
but there's no money in that
vapid jay
I understand and don't judge. The money I have had has not always been entirely moral either. In some ways, this is why working in software is not my end game. Like I said somewhere above, for me, its 100% about validation.
crude crown
validation?
as in, self worth?
I don't think you want to rely on a day job for that... trust me.
vapid jay
If I had a job working in software, the people in my life who know nothing about software would not question if Im any good at it. For the average person, their first questio is, "So where do you work?"
And... thats not a problem until you're someone who spends all their free time programming, which i have been for a year.
And in that time, you start to feel the sense that people think you are just playing.
I dont like it. I am new. But I can get much better.
And I will
But yeah
crude crown
you seem to have some judgemental people around you...
crude crown
then again, you're in the USA from what I gather
crude crown
precisely because of that first question
vapid jay
Indeed
crude crown
here in Europe that's not an usual thing
eventually the topic of work will come up of course
but that's not typically the ice-breaker question
shadow moss
what is?
crude crown
Good question... I think it changes from country to country here in Europe
shadow moss
In what country you live in?
crude crown
don't want to reveal too much of me for now, but I live in Southern Europe.
off to dinner, brb.
shadow moss
So what is "Ice breaker question"
crude crown
I think the ice breaker question might be... what do you usually do or who are you
shadow moss
Most people ask similar in US, work is just brought up first thing
vapid jay
No in America, the moment you meet someone, for example in a bar, "What do you do?" and they mean where do you work.
lol
This is as difficult a question to answer if you are a homeless person as it is if you are a trustfund kid or your wife makes most of the money such that it doesnt matter.
If you cant say, "I spend all my time doing this that I love" and "I work doing it here"
You do not get respect from people.
And in general, I believe that Im capable of getting better at this. And at some point I will not tolerate people thinking that.
Whether I have a job or not. Right now I am still only less than two years into my first hello world
So im not getting ahead of myself
But eventually I will be good.
shadow moss
TLS so say your hobbies
marsh wind
I think people in Europe are in general are a bit less judgemental than in US. I guess the ice breaker question will really depend a lot on circumstances in which you meet. like were you invited to tag along to the bar with friends, or if your partner want to meet you some friends at yours/their place, etc. but if it's something very informal it would likely be hobby/sport/politics talks etc.
idk though if you go out with someone one-on-one (tinder?) then perhaps job topic can come faster or really be a starter (idk really, did not have exerpeince)
So what is "Ice breaker question"
@shadow moss
crude crown
Lossberg's right, obviously the social context matters more compared to the country you're in.
crude crown
anyway, this kind of derailed the purpose of "career development" of this channel
muted geode
Does anyone have insight on the educational path for a career in computational social science/data science/data analytics? Not sure if a masters or phd is worth it versus focusing on projects with an undergrad degree
crude crown
can you be a bit more specific?
usually if you're unsure of going into a PhD, you shouldn't get into it.
it will also will depend on your endgame...
marsh wind
Masters are likely to be important for data science career at least
and if you already made up your mind (about going to industry and not academia) I would not do PhD unless it's a joint academia-industry PhD @muted geode
gilded valley
and if you already made up your mind (about going to industry and not academia) I would not do PhD unless it's a joint academia-industry PhD
Really? It seems to me looking at job postings, more places want PHDs than care about masters
In the sphere of data science
muted geode
I am potentially interested in going into academia but I would also want the flexibility to work in industry. I was looking into computational social science but job postings do not seem to reflect a need for this
marsh wind
@gilded valley Data science might be one and only exception
And still not sure if doing 3-4 years PhD will be better than 3-4 yrs of getting relevant experience
In industry
lavish geyser
I have a some friends with masters and they universally say it’s a waste of time
They say either get a PhD or go into industry
lavish geyser
If you want to work in research get a phd
If you want to work in industry work in industry
muted geode
waste of time as in they didn't learn skills applied to their job or the masters was not needed to even apply?
lavish geyser
Both
gilded valley
If you want to work in industry work in industry
For data science, a lot of top industry positions require a PHD
I'd be pretty happy doing 3/4 years of a PHD if it meant I could start work at Oxford Asset Management with a starting salary of 100k gbp
lavish geyser
Data science would be one of the exceptions
gilded valley
obviously that's not the standard
opal perch
yes, a lot of faang companies and good data science roles, require a phd, in the US
marsh wind
Even then it would depend also on PhD. Perhaps if it's applied math or something along lines ML, CV Deep learning and etc then PhD likely to give you upper hand in related industries
gilded valley
I've been told by people working in software dev that a Masters is pretty much a waste of time for that sphere
muted geode
ahh thats good to know about masters
marsh wind
But if you do PhD in things like chem/bio/phys, you will still have some hard time with software /data jobs later
marsh wind
I heard they don't require but appreciate
opal perch
Jayy, just look at local postings and see what they require
lavish geyser
I have, I’m job searching. It’s all bachelors that I’ve seen
It’s why i went back to school, a lot of places wanted a degree and i didn’t have one
opal perch
So I did a quick check for data science/machine learning engineer in stockholm, about 50% required a masters but preferred a phd, and some didn't say anything except "academic background in maths/ds/machine learning"
marsh wind
For what I saw it seems that they would prefer PhD in such cases over fresh master with no experience. But if kt comes down to PhD with no industry experience vs master with 2-3 yrs of relevant work... Ain't that obvious now 🤷♂️
opal perch
I'd still rate the fresh phd higher than a masters with 2-3 years.
but what do I know
thats just my guess
marsh wind
Also depends on PhD. Those who go for CS/ML PhD likely had industry in mind right away
Those like me with physics background who then want to go for industry... Not so easy or fast))
opal perch
That's strange, i dont know how it is in france, but I spoke to quite a few people who had a physics phd and got accepted into a faang company for data science with so little effort
marsh wind
🤷♂️ Luck matters too. Also their actual skill set
opal perch
True
muted geode
thanks for your feedback & advice , really nice to hear from people in the field and get different perspectives 🙂
crude crown
for "regular" SW dev, a bachelor's should be enough
and honestly, the expected value for earnings is higher for "regular" SW dev compared to "data science" work.
also, you should keep in mind the, now generally accepted, three differents kind of roles
soft swift
@burnt tiger what language is worth spending money to learn
crude crown
which are: "Data Scientist", "Data Engineer", and "Machine Learning Engineer"
at the moment there's a quite higher demand for data engineers compared to data scientists
this is something that's happening all over the world
soft swift
since @molten spoke is online....which language is worth spending money to learn
molten spoke
none of them
crude crown
@soft swift If I had to spend money, it would be on the languages which have the least online resources for learning
molten spoke
though if you are actively seeking something to buy, there are some fantastic Python books
but it is not essential
crude crown
which is definitely not the case for Python, everyone and their grandma and dog is piling into Python.
however, if you're talking about COBOL...
might be worth it in case you're determined to work as a COBOL developer
soft swift
oh ok which language is the hardest to find resources for learning?
crude crown
the least beginner friendly ones 🙂
I've already said one of them
another one might be one of the many variants of Assembly or LISP
but it really depends on your purpose...
soft swift
powerful language and multi functional
crude crown
hmm
the majority of the "mainstream" languages are powerful enough, else they wouldn't be mainstream.
soft swift
ah ok.
soft swift
yh
crude crown
well, Python might not be the best way then
either way
the most important thing is to be a business problem solver
and "business" here is the keyword
crude crown
it's much easier said than done
and typically
it requires to get out quite a bit out of the typical "maker" mindset
and embrace the bullshit "business" mindset
soft swift
also i need to learn python fast would u pay or learn for free?
crude crown
how fast?
soft swift
extremely fast
soft swift
i want to learn the entire language
soft swift
indeed i am
crude crown
you should focus on nailing the basic and fundamentals well
then everything else builds on that
just like mathematics
soft swift
but would u recommend paying to learn faster?
crude crown
I didn't do that and if you ask the people I'd say 95% of people didn't do that
however, if you have the opportunity for that... it doesn't hurt I guess
soft swift
hmmmmmm....
crude crown
having someone to get you up to speed on the fundamentals of a language is for sure quite useful
if you have money to spare... do it.
soft swift
ok thx
burnt tiger
@soft swift If you have money to spend, I would recommend spending it on a decent textbook or formal certification course though rather than one of the "learn x language in y weeks" courses. Those have a tendency to be not worth the cost, at least in my experience.
jaunty pendant
I'm learning from textbooks, and when I've gone to the local meetups, I've found myself to be one of the most thoroughly educated participants in the areas I've studied. In my opinion, nothing beats a good book written by an experienced author.
runic raven
@jaunty pendant Any recommendations for books?
rare sand
@runic raven I know you weren't asking me, but we have a list of books that are very frequently recommended here on our website https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources/reading/
Python Tricks, A Byte of Python, Automate the Boring Stuff and Invent With Python are some of my favorite beginner books. Fluent Python and Effective Python are wonderful intermediate books.
old silo
Hmmm I will try
runic raven
Thanks.
fringe plume
that's around the time I started dedicating my time to programming, if you're able to do the same you'll be a way ahead in a couple of years where you can get picked up as a trainee with a mentor and hit the ground running~
or, well.. 6th grade might have a different age in different countries hmm
crude crown
wtf, 6th grade?
open patio
he's already long gone
runic raven
yeah lol
fringe plume
yeah 12 is about right
I'm pretty happy I was able to dedicate those years to exploring coding and stuff on my own terms, can't really say those missed history lessons have had any real impact on my life so far 😛
vapid jay
Any advice on starting to look for freelance jobs on Upwork?
white karma
Be prepared to work for scraps
Freelancing almost always has jobs go to the lowest bidder
tulip dust
I keep looking at Youtubers who come from google as software engineer and they all keep saying that coding is useless nowadays and they all quit. And I’m to the point questioning my self did I really learn to code for no reason even though I do have fun with it and expect to have fun as a software engineer in the future?
tulip dust
But it just keeps me questioning
radiant moon
If you enjoy doing it, and there are people offering to pay you money to do it ... seems like a no-brainer to me
tulip dust
Alright well I just wanted to see someone else’s response thanks.
summer roost
If someone writes a blog post called "I took a job as a software engineer and I really enjoy it and plan to keep doing it", no one clicks it.
white karma
You realize those people coming from google are most likely trying to dissuade any competition
That’s my opinion anyway
“Nah man you don’t wanna do coding, it’s all being automated now and...stuff.”
vapid jay
they just do it for clicks a views i think
and*
people are more likely to watch someone shitting on a company than kissing its ass
speaking of google, i completed google foobar a couple of days ago, has anyone here completed it, if so did they contact you and if so how long did it take?
half hawk
What do full stack devs do vs backend or fronted devs and what about data science please ping me with your answers
tranquil quail
@half hawk Using the mighty google-fu, I found this article...it was the second link in the list. https://www.codingdojo.com/blog/frontend-vs-backend-vs-full-stack
half hawk
what about data scientists @tranquil quail
alpine flame
Full stack means skills to dev all 3 layers (front end,backend and middeware ) ... Data scientists use Machine learning and BI tolls for anylysing Data and predictive analysis
half hawk
english?
half hawk
idk what BI tolls and data predictive analysis is
vapid jay
he meant business intelligence tools
eg of a what a job would look like as a data scientist/analyst would be making predictions in the stock market
or analysing patterns etc
jaunty mist
Hello
crude crown
ok
jaunty mist
Ok
crude crown
I'm not aware of jobs where you specifically only work on those kind of bots
vapid jay
the odds of landing a full time job as a bot dev is low btw
jaunty mist
What are the other types of jobs that I can get just by learning py??
crude crown
those kind of bots are actually usually used as tools for developers, not as the product to be sold to end users
vapid jay
oh looaaaads
jaunty mist
I am new to this industry
crude crown
I think first you shouldn't think about the language
vapid jay
data science is a big one for instance
crude crown
but narrow down the fields
vapid jay
python is mostly used for machine learning and science these days
crude crown
true that
vapid jay
as well as automation of devops
jaunty mist
Yes that's what i am trying currently I am just studying py with no goals
crude crown
I can see that you intend to get a job as one of the goals
jaunty mist
Yes
crude crown
If you want a good chance of getting a job... I would avoid anything dealing with machine learning and data science
unless you're working as a backend developer for ML systems
vapid jay
@jaunty mist you have to find out what you enjoy doing as a developer...for instance i hated writing websites, but loved data analytics
crude crown
Heading towards the path of DevOps/SRE would yield better chances.
jaunty mist
It's too late to find what I love to do .I Currently going to complete third year in my college and till now I don't know what I am doing or going to do
vapid jay
it's never too late
crude crown
please refrain from .|.
jaunty mist
What
vapid jay
crude crown
that's a middle finger emoji where I come from...
jaunty mist
🤔
crude crown
whatever, let's move on.
If you're not sure about something in particular
I would advise choosing something that has more of a "generalist" nature
jaunty mist
Ok
crude crown
I think backend development is a good choice for that
vapid jay
i mean i feel like one can't really know what they like till they try it
jaunty mist
@vapid jay that's true
vapid jay
try frontend, backend, devops etc and see what u liked studying
jaunty mist
Ok
crude crown
true indeed
vapid jay
i gave up on devops in 10 mins after seeing how hard it was lol
jaunty mist
Anyother suggestion so that I can get a job?
vapid jay
but to some people it's easy as hell
crude crown
10 mins is freaking nothing...
jaunty mist
What are the other options that I can get by learning py?
crude crown
for backend development, I wouldn't rely only on Python
You'll want to learn a more "performant" language for that...
vapid jay
@crude crown i usually stick to the tutorial for a lot longer, but those yaml files in kubernetes are killing me
crude crown
Do consider Java or Kotlin
jaunty mist
Ok
vapid jay
@jaunty mist wut was ur degree ..u said u were studying?
vapid jay
cool then u should already have the foundations in math to do machine learning
crude crown
Another suggestion is... watch out for overhyped fields.
vapid jay
ml engineers pull hella salaries
jaunty mist
Maybe idk
vapid jay
yeah don't go into blockchain etc
jaunty mist
Ok@vapid jay
vapid jay
not sure it is...it used to be for a while, but nearly every company has an ml department these days
crude crown
but still overhyped as hell
vapid jay
ml is not AI research, just building recommendation systems etc
crude crown
I'm aware of that
and I still maintain my stand on this
there's a real deluge of people trying to hop on in that field
jaunty mist
What are u guys currently doing in term of jobs??
crude crown
and other people starting to get out of that field
I work as a ML engineer currently
vapid jay
my entry job was data science then quit after being bored
jaunty mist
Machine learning engineer?
crude crown
yes
jaunty mist
So basically I have to try front end, back end, ml.
And try to decide which suit me better
jaunty mist
Ok
crude crown
I think I would pick up taven's advice and think about the courses in your degree that got you more hooked
and got you more motivated
jaunty mist
My degree is of no use ..
vapid jay
yeah and also look at the courses required to be learn in each career, and see if you like the description
crude crown
and attempt to map those to the fields that you're considering
jaunty mist
That a good way
vapid jay
My degree is of no use ..
that's not true, you said u were indian? they teach hella math my dude, almost everything required for really advanced feilds
crude crown
I think it really depends on the university/college...
vapid jay
if you syllabus had calc 3 then u set
jaunty mist
Yeah mostly
crude crown
at least from what I know what happens over there.
jaunty mist
@vapid jay yes we do have
vapid jay
then u have the requisite courses to take on something like ml
u won't be pushing any boundaries, but good enough to get a job as one
jaunty mist
Ok
vapid jay
although i should mention all of these feilds require a lot of learning by yourself ...reading docs etc
crude crown
yes, there's no "easy" way
jaunty mist
Ok
vapid jay
yes it requires self study, but it won't be like learning django from a yt video
it will be much harder
basically if you're not patient, ur out the field
jaunty mist
Ok
vapid jay
that's why i left cs myself , doing biology now lol
jaunty mist
What.. biology
crude crown
wait
interesting
so, from what I've read, you worked a bit in data science and you're now studying/working in biology?
vapid jay
yeah, going into neruo informatics
7 years left
maybe by that time i'll change my mind
crude crown
and I can't overstate what taven just said about being patient, it's really a requirement in whatever CS field you get into.
vapid jay
yeah some bugs have no solutions, and u have to wait weeks before u get a reply from author of the repo
crude crown
either by dealing with annoying bugs or by dealing with annoying people and processes.
interesting, so you're going for a PhD I assume?
vapid jay
interesting, so you're going for a PhD I assume?
@crude crown i know i want to do research, but PhDs are hard, so maybe i'll give up
crude crown
http://pgbovine.net/PhD-grind-tldr.htm -> Read up on this.
vapid jay
whoa nice, thanks i'll give it a read 
crude crown
no problem 🙂
marsh wind
If you want a good chance of getting a job... I would avoid anything dealing with machine learning and data science
@crude crown just wondering, why would you say that?
It's too late to find what I love to do .I Currently going to complete third year in my college and till now I don't know what I am doing or going to do
@jaunty mist wow it is never too late. Especially in 3rd year of college, really. Who told you that bullshit about too late? There are people who change drastically their path being in mid 30s and they succeed. and 3rd year college is what, 20?
crude crown
I say that based on my experience, observations and readings in the past few years.
to summarize it: there's way too many people wanting to get into that field compared to the available job offers.
white karma
Isn’t that all of programming in general?
crude crown
while it can be argued that it happens in programming in general, there are subfields where this phenomena is way more intense.
marsh wind
🤷♂️ by the general looks of it and simply looking around it seems to be more or less true for entry level in any of subfields
crude crown
you're right on that.
marsh wind
so rather than:
I would avoid anything dealing with machine learning and data science
one should rather avoid something that will get them bored, depressed and won't bring any fulfilment, satisfaction 🙂
marsh wind
well yeah if it pays very good you can trade-off some things, but its not all about $$
muted harness
It was my understanding that data science was useful to fields outside where programmers were traditionally hired so while there is a rush of people trying to fill these positions there is plenty of jobs to go around
at least that is why I changed my major from computer science to data science
muted harness
I am still working through a lot of pre-reqs and taking my first data science course in fall so I have time to switch it up if I don't like it but on the surface it sounds interesting. What is boring about it if i may ask
marsh wind
I think the field is so wide, in the sense that so many things are called "data science" that different jobs can give totally different experience
vapid jay
it might just be that might personality is not suited for data science.
or that i'm working on the wrong data science projects.
but there's nothing that makes me really intellectually excited about data science.
marsh wind
how many companies/jobs you worked on in the field?
vapid jay
not that many but the problems themselves don't honestly seem so interesting to me.
muted harness
Yeah like Lossberg just said, the data science field is very wide. Almost everything has a data set, so if you are working with data about things you don't care about I can see that becoming a reason to be bored
crude crown
it's worth mentioning that in a data science job you most likely will spend quite a lot of time acquiring and cleaning up data
vapid jay
not only that. even then trying to get results might not be that great and it's very gradual and slow.
muted harness
That is what I am expecting. I am only going for a BS not a PhD so I expect to find work as a data engineer and not as a data scientist
crude crown
working as a Data engineer would be a good idea
brave sinew
Hi guys, anyone here doing Python ML
gilded valley
Probably - if you have a question, it's best to just ask
brave sinew
what does this mean y= w^Tx in regards to Linear Regression. w^T are the weights and x is what? like features?
I am kind of just starting, I am trying to piece this together.
past rapids
Hi all, I was wondering if anyone had any experience with the road back to an MSCS degree after a less than stellar undergrad, and how that's impacted their careers? I went to a top 50 U.S. Uni with a 3.2 GPA in econ, minor in CS, very few math classes (I did poorly in Calc II, no Lin Alg), and I've been working as an excel monkey at a consulting firm for 2 years. I've been able to weasel my way into doing some of my daily tasks using rudimentary pandas and Tableau, but I think that an MS degree could do me a lot of good, as I can't even remotely work my way into a junior developer role at this point in my career. Has anyone else followed this path?
brave sinew
If someone is a bit knowledgable in this area, I was hoping to get a private conversation
Hi srndsnd I personally have not, but I know some people who kind have a similar story
Looks like you are not accepting any messages, can you message me?
past rapids
@brave sinew me?
brave sinew
yes
past rapids
I can't answer your ML question but okay
brave sinew
no about your career question
marsh wind
what does this mean y= w^Tx in regards to Linear Regression. w^T are the weights and x is what? like features?
@brave sinew you'd better ask in #data-science-and-ml and not career. But eys, X are features verctor
brave sinew
@marsh wind Ah thank you I didnt realize there was that section!
modern burrow
Hi all! Can anyone here guide me on how to learn python to professional levels that could land me a job? i am already working in C and Embedded C domain.
vapid jay
depends what kind of job you want
dusty island
I'd say do some pretty simple project then apply for a job. If you can code people will hire you based on that and you can learn the finer points on the job.
white karma
How simple is a simple project?
radiant moon
simple enough to not be too intimidating to start, but complex enough to be interesting and impressive.
that's not much of an answer, but the real answer all depends on you, so it's the best I can do.
fringe plume
If you come from C only and haven't messed with langs that aren't static and hard typed it'll be a bit of a rollercoaster tho in regards to shubham
jaunty mist
Think about everyday problem u have everyday and try to make that problem into a startup idea
hazy rover
I honestly wish my college took a more proactive approach to helping students head in a direction that makes sense for them, when it comes to what avenue to pursue with programming. I've seen that long reddit thread about the different subdivisions of programming, as well as the explanations of what you do in these jobs. And I realize that you're learning fundamentals of a craft when attending college. But I don't now anyone that I'm taking classes with (I'm starting my third year in august) that knows wtf any of these really mean...front end, back end, coder versus data scientest. I suppose this is what you have your academic advisor for, to a degree, but even that is limited. I wish there was a course that literally just laid the general landscape out for us.
Because I sure as hell wasn't offered one
austere stirrup
I think most people would suggest that internships fit that void. You see if you like the type of work the company is doing and gain an understanding of what working there would be like. That course isn't offered because it's not possible to simultaneously work full-time in academia and also be intimately familiar with what companies are doing as you'd have to work there full time as well to really know
fringe plume
I've had two internships, one where I was taught a lot, another where I was taught nothing and just learned by doing, the first one took a bit less of a toll on my emotional and physical health* than the second one but they both helped me in different ways
I'm totally on board with that changes need to be made to traditional education
gilded valley
The goal of university isn't necessarily to train you for a job - and I don't think it should be. Once you leave high school, you become entirely responsible for your own education - it's up to you to take the proactive steps to do that. Hanging around places like here so you can try to figure out things from a more practical perspective than lectures, doing random hobby projects, and internships are all part of that self education. A university can't reasonably teach you about a million different areas, and in reality it shouldn't.
University does two things: it certifies to an employer that you're capable of learning some relatively complex things, and that means you can probably learn complex things needed for the job; and it provides an environment where you're forced to teach yourself some stuff, hopefully giving you the skills you need to be able to teach yourself other stuff in the future
marsh wind
also it knda helps to develop soft skills
especially communication, presenetation, team work
fringe plume
teachers should probably help you study more so than try to put the teaching on themselves, it takes me about a second to get a set of free lectures online from one of the best if not the best teacher in the world for the given subject
gilded valley
teachers should probably help you study more so than try to put the teaching on themselves, it takes me about a second to get a set of free lectures online from one of the best if not the best teacher in the world for the given subject
You have to go out of your way to approach lecturers and ask questions. Also, really, the main job of the lecturer is to provide a specific set of material which you need to know for the exam/coursework - it's not necessarily about actually doing a good job of teaching you. Just saying "Everything from within these lectures is the truth for this unit, you will be expected to know this stuff even if other sources might disagree"
crude crown
it doesn't kinda help to develop soft skills, it's really necessary
more than ever
at least if you want to work in a "modern" software development company
fringe plume
not sure if I've ever seen a school where teachers spend the majority of their time handing out material to study
usually they actually lecture
and that time, just saying, personally I'd rather spend listening to the best lecturer in the world rather than this person if the choice is as simple as clicking a button which today it seems to be
gilded valley
it doesn't kinda help to develop soft skills, it's really necessary
I think he meant that uni helps develop those skills - which at least for me I don't think has ben massively true
not sure if I've ever seen a school where teachers spend the majority of their time handing out material to study
I didn't say they did. Just that the content they set out is the content that needs to be learned
and that time, just saying, personally I'd rather spend listening to the best lecturer in the world rather than this person if the choice is as simple as clicking a button which today it seems to be
You can do that if you chose, you just need to make sure you know the stuff you need to know
crude crown
well, it depends on what you make of your stay at a uni
gilded valley
Well, I think my experience at uni is influenced by the fact its a D-tier uni
fringe plume
if the schools only job is to provide a corriculum and materials idk, I'll agree that part is useful but I really don't get how talking about the teachers actually lecturing is somehow weird, it's really what they do the majority of the time
well, the majority of time in schools that's what you sit and listen to
rather
teachers actually spend more time grading I guess
crude crown
I believe that in CS, it's mostly what you make of your stay rather then the pedigree of your uni
fringe plume
I don't see any argument here against that it's an inherent flaw that you spend most of your time in school listening to a subpar lecture
if the alternative is so simple to achieve
crude crown
@burnt tiger is kind of a testament to that.
there are some exceptions sure, but CS is a relatively "meritocratic" field in that sense.
gilded valley
I mean - I feel like my uni has failed at one of the core goals which is setting reasonable baselines for knowledge. Literally none of my courses have been challenging. The programming units have been incredibly simple, there's 0 maths. I can still access opportunities outside of uni, but I don't feel like my actual experience at university has been remotely interesting; I've learned vastly more from this Discord than I think I have from actual university
fringe plume
I dropped out at 12 but I did try higher education later a few times, I never really found anyone that really knew what they were talking about, but I feel like that's a very personal experience
now the one thing I feel like I kinda actually missed was as mentioned earlier the social aspect learning to be crammed up in a room with semi-random people
crude crown
I can kind see the argument for that nowadays
*kinda
I mean the argument on using the resources available online for learning CS
fringe plume
when I was young it got so weird, teacher gave us a subject, I go home and use the internet, then spend rest of the year really slowly going through everything I read that night -_-
crude crown
instead of going through uni/college
gilded valley
I dropped out at 12 but I did try higher education later a few times, I never really found anyone that really knew what they were talking about, but I feel like that's a very personal experience
I don't buy that higher education is some fundamentally flawed thing. For undergraduates, it might be a little too oriented around ticking boxes - but I don't think it's a broken system.
fringe plume
tbh I think the amount of subjects the argument doesn't work for is easier to list
like... ehm... surgeon
I really would not want a self-taught surgeon
rocket scientist now that's maybe debatable
crude crown
medicine you wouldn't want so, "real" engineering you wouldn't want so
fringe plume
if you work with like machines that can kill people unless your microcontrollers are perfect
gilded valley
@fringe plume are you US based?
fringe plume
no EU
gilded valley
Hm - do you have free higher education?
crude crown
it depends on the countries
fringe plume
yes
gilded valley
I'm asking Litnit specifically - I know it depends on the country
fringe plume
I mean the education is free but I still need to survive 😄 but they give out interest-free loans for that
it's very cushy
crude crown
ok charlie.
gilded valley
Hm - I feel like once university is free/relatively cheap, it becomes just a better medium for learning than self teaching
hazy rover
I understand you @marble plaza I just think it’s not out of the realm of question to be introduced to fields to get into. I have a degree in electrical engineering, and at the very least they did introduce us in an intro general engineering class to various fields and answered questions for us and gave us run downs
fringe plume
it needs to not just be free but also more open imho
gilded valley
it provides a framework in which you can self teach, and an environment in which you can learn effectively
fringe plume
if you have specific goals you should feel free to ignore everything else
gilded valley
What do you mean by more open?
fringe plume
like, don't kick out einstein because his history score is bad
marble plaza
reee you pinged the wrong charlie
fringe plume
bad example but ok
gilded valley
There's too many Charlies on this server
fringe plume
I really just think my personal experience has been bad tbh
gilded valley
Higher ed definitely isn't a perfect system, but I do think its relatively solid and doesn't require completely changing up
fringe plume
this one time a teacher told the principal that he saw me active on msn messenger past 00: at night lol
so much weird stuff, idk
gilded valley
(except in the US where student loans are bonkers, that system is broke)
fringe plume
the internet required education to completely change up imho
gilded valley
I don't think so. I think the current system works relatively well in most places
fringe plume
it's really a fundamental change to human nature and affects specifically education almost more than anything
gilded valley
You can access all the free resources and use them in your course if you choose
fringe plume
how is the internet not related you're literally given the world class of everything
gilded valley
But university provides a framework in which that learning can take place
fringe plume
😄
gilded valley
I'm not saying the internet isn't related. Just that you can use the free resources the internet provides within the current system
fringe plume
I used to draw people weird stuff with the handwriting feature
crude crown
MSN messenger... sips now that was a messenger!
gilded valley
I know people who have used MITs alg lectures instead of their own alg lectures for example - and that works well
fringe plume
I also made a hack for it so I could nudge people unlimited with no cooldown
😄
yeah that does sound good Charlie
I feel like it should probably be more of a standard way tho
crude crown
yeah, I sometimes used some resources from other unis while studying for my degree
fringe plume
maybe having local teachers as a more supportive role to help students understand the lecture for questions after
if my science teacher when I was a kid would've told us to watch like carl sagan lectures I probably would've been way more into it
crude crown
don't dwell on the past man.
fringe plume
hah no now I'm thinking about it more in the context of my eventual own kids going to school 😛
if they were 5-6 today I would probably be homeschooling them
crude crown
alright, that's fair enough. 🙂
fringe plume
also this really interesting statistic going around that on average school affects about 30% or so of the educational outcome while the rest is what goes on with the kid outside of school
I believe that's for younger people tho idk how it plays out in higher edu
gilded valley
Schooling for younger kids is a very different conversation, and one thats probably offtopic for careers
burnt tiger
@crude crown @fringe plume Yeah I would say that college is mostly what you make of it. If you just sit there silently listening to the lectures and doing the minimum work for the projects, you honestly won't get much out of it. You have to ask many questions and creatively make the projects realistically relevant. At least that's how it worked out decently well for me.
But I personally think that many of the courses in the traditional CS curriculum are not at all necessary to become a skilled programmer. Especially many of the non-applied math courses, unless you to into a more niche and highly specialized field.
In the future, I think we'll see a shift in curriculum to focus on more hands-on programing, and less emphasis on taking multiple non-applied calculus courses that are only slightly relevant at best.
summer roost
there are already schools that have software engineering programs, as distinct from computer science programs, and those do tend to be more hands on.
mint citrus
if you go into data science the math is important
algorithms is pretty important as well and heavily math based
and believe it or not algo pretty important on frontend now as its getting more and more complicated
fringe plume
I think hands-on has it's place, lecturing has it's place too, I just think like before the internet the teacher at the school was the best lecturer available to the students there, this has fundamentally changed but lecturing has not
somber rain
Whats a good place to do math online?
1st and second year university mathematics?
Im trying to prepare for my masters
jaunty mist
I think there is no good website for 1st and 2 nd year maths.
worn mirage
Any web developers who could help me with figuring out an appropriate rate to charge for a website?
fair zenith
Hello, just had a quick question regarding certifications, and if I missed the spot on Discord I apologize, but is there a list of useful certifications anyone could point me towards? Specifically focusing the Cyber Security field...just wanted to see what the general public thought of as useful/essential certs\
near schooner
@somber rain khanacademy I imagine
heavy plover
@fair zenith the CompTIA Security Track https://www.comptia.org/blog/the-comptia-cybersecurity-career-pathway-employable-skills-found-here
That's the industry standard for certifications, you don't need all of them but getting a security+ if you're gonna work for government/federal programs is required, and then a few others beyond would be good
Sec+, CySA+, PenTest+ would all be pretty strong. The higher level ones beyond that will be something you want later but you'll know when to go for those.
fair zenith
thank yo so much for that, thank you very much
obsidian jolt
Hello, is freelancing worth it in terms of income?
shadow moss
depends on what you consider acceptable for income
obsidian jolt
What is it usually for freelance?
shadow moss
depends on the complexity of the job
it's such a broad question, it's impossible to answer
obsidian jolt
I mean is there an avarage
marsh wind
if by freelance, you mean things like upwork /fiverrr, afaik projects there usually go to the lowest bidder
which means that your income w.r.t time spent will be quite lower than normal job (unless you live in a very cheap country)
if, however, by freelance you mean that you will try to find independently on any freelance website clients for you, i.e. look for some local shops, small buisness and etc who, you think can benefit from your services, and if you are good enough to reach out and convince them to pay you for the service, that will be different story
shadow moss
what you get for contracting varies depending on country, who you are contracting with and what you are contracting for
marsh wind
right before corona struck and before I got the offer for my current job, I was reffered to a guy who needed some consulting/freelance service, and he was ready to pay some hefty sum for it, considering that I had really little experience in the field (but I was reffered to him directly).
But you need to be good at networking or you need to already have a network of peers for that
obsidian jolt
Thanks so much, since I live in Croatia there isnt many People needing python developers so my only way is thru Online
shadow moss
Isn't Croatia in EU?
marsh wind
It is
crude crown
Even if living in Croatia, services like upwork/fiverr are still not worth it IMO
shadow moss
they are not
obsidian jolt
Yes, but I cant find customers in the local area
marsh wind
what's your skill set?
like, if you are fullstack web developer, local customers should not care if it is python or Java or C# or PhP
shadow moss
with upwork, you are competing against those in countries with much lower GDP
marsh wind
what they need is a functional website
crude crown
true indeed
obsidian jolt
Yeah I was thinking web developing is Best for my country since a lot of Business lack websites and etc. But I am also interested in Ai
crude crown
wrt freelancing I'd say web dev is better compared to data science
shadow moss
there can be alot of data science freelance
take this excel file of customers and tell me what it means
obsidian jolt
Yeah thats sad do you think data science and Ai developing etc.. will get more jobs over the next 2 decades
crude crown
way harder I'd say
and that example you gave is under the realm of business intelligence IMO
shadow moss
not always
it could indicate that your customer base is growing richer and should offer more refined products
that can be data science
obsidian jolt
I think data science will grow a lot in the near future in 2026 there will be about 11.5 mil jobs
marsh wind
hard to say about DS market. there are now also a lot of work going towards abstracting things away and wrapping them into ready to use prodcut that allow to automate some simple-ish machine learning and stats tasks
and to allow people without proper coding skills to do things
potentially it can reduce the demand for data science jobs where there is no complex stuff
obsidian jolt
Oh luckly I am still kinda New in python do you recommend switching to another career in python?
marsh wind
naah. This isn't something that will happen like soon @obsidian jolt
AI/ML/DS is not a bad career by any means.
but it might be harder to get a job than in software web (can depend on where are you and your experince/degree ofc)
sullen osprey
Oh so someone from balkan
I am struggling as well to find something like job or project to work on
:/
fair zenith
if someone wanted to do cyber security as their main focus, what types of career paths do you see as a strong path?
obsidian acorn
system admin, and python, server setups, and security, would be good path to be working on
Attending Infosec events would be a good way to gather information about the career paths, and get connects for cyber sec
vapid jay
Is data scientists high in demand?
vapid jay
@fair zenith pentesting is good money and kind of automated. I've seen pentest guys work and some of it is literally afk mode.
Is data scientists high in demand?
@vapid jay
Good data scientists are. The pay is varying though.
mystic owl
is game developing in high demand
opal perch
noto really
tidal socket
i feel that depends tho... wouldn't good c++ game devs be fairly more in demand? just no one really does commercial games in python
dry steeple
Does anyone know if Grover's algorithm can break McEliece's public key encryption when utilized with quantum computing?
fair zenith
@obsidian acorn thank you for that input, I appreciate you
@vapid jay thank you as well, I was looking into that actually, how did you go about entering that specific sector of Cyber Sec?
vapid jay
I keep searching on tutorials for software engineering WITH a degree and I can't find any videos, does that mean that going to college with a computer science degree would be more straightforward and easy to do than to not have a degree?
obsidian acorn
what are you looking for exactly?
soffware engineer is a vast field, there is no one video
that covers it all
opal perch
I mean yes, having a degree is certainly the easier option.
vapid jay
A software developer or engineer is the job I'm looking for, but I can't find ANY video at all that's about having a degree
opal perch
I mean, there are so many videos. Probably a sign you haven't learnt the one thing needed to be a developer, learning how to google 😛
shut geyser
It's much easier to get pass some HR filters
vapid jay
Hr filter?
shut geyser
Human ressources filters
Your CV can directly go to the trash without a further look if you don't meet requirements
opal perch
@vapid jay , I dont know how old you are, but just keep doing what you're doing, you can get a software job without a degree, but it's not easy at all.
vapid jay
I'm 17, and turning 18 in August and I want to get a degree
opal perch
well then get a degree.
there's more to uni than a degree, don't just think of it like that, it's important for some life skills as well
haughty phoenix
I disagree, you can learn life skills in the real world without going to Uni. That said, think of it more as an experience, an opportunity to network, etc.
gilded valley
I disagree, you can learn life skills in the real world without going to Uni. That said, think of it more as an experience, an opportunity to network, etc.
It's not necessarily about whether you can learn it without uni or not - more that the easiest way to learn some things is by going to university
and if it's free or relatively cheap - then there's very little reason to not take that opportunity
haughty phoenix
I was merely referring to the fact that life skills is one thing you can learn more of from being uni; I agree with you completely though, for the vast majority people it is the best route to take.
fluid fern
There were some people I know that got paid lower just cause they didn't have a degree
opal perch
I was merely referring to the fact that life skills is one thing you can learn more of from being uni; I agree with you completely though, for the vast majority people it is the best route to take.
@haughty phoenix when I meant life skills, I didn't just mean what you're thinking of, I'm talking about presentation skills, or social skills, obviously those can be done without a uni degree, but a big part of uni is everything that comes alongside the degree.
haughty phoenix
gotcha
opal perch
Yea my bad, wasn't clear enough the first time
shadow moss
looks accredited
opal perch
It does seem accredited, it just doesn't come up on any university ranking like other distance learning universities do
fervent zenith
What about someone who graduated from a bootcamp with no college degree and is a hs dropout?
opal perch
Is that your situation?
It really depends, there are a couple bootcamps that are pretty good, but in general I think its more if you're already at a company and they want to accelerate your learning in something or if you've already got base skils and want to add to those
it will still be hard, and basically considered "self taught", in my opinion.
but maybe someone who has done an actual bootcamp can give their insight
fervent zenith
I guess to be on the safe side I should consider freelancing and making applications that sell
@opal perch What do you suggest I do in order to be a successful lancer and all
vapid jay
Hey, Im writting in Python for few months, getting better every day in Django and Panda3D, Im really keen on python, but idk what exacly I want to do for living, 2 months ago I lose my job because of Cowid, and Im thiking about getting start somewhere as Python Junioer Dev, Can you give me some advices about that what i should know, what projects i have to write into portfolio etc. to get the job? I don't know any python dev, and HR in my country is really not in the best shape to giving advices
faint mist
@vapid jay What country are you from?
vapid jay
@faint mist Poland
faint mist
@vapid jay I see. Just for context, I'm just beginning to learn Python. I've been learning it for about a week now. I have about 1 year worth of experience in VBA from university. But that was 5 years ago.
The reason i messaged you is because I'm in a similar situation and have similar questions that you have.
vapid jay
🙂
obsidian acorn
@vapid jay to start with, if you want to join the engineering field, python is a great way to get your foot in the door. Once you know python, you can venture into other languages, and other tools. Python is one of the largest, in terms of usage, language, because practically anything programming wise you want to do, there are probably some libraries in python for that. (Except for gaming, aka almost). But even then, we have enough gaming libraries to give you a taste.
In terms of what you need to know, getting a solid base in python, we have a couple of books we recommend that you can try, read, and practice, end to end. They have a wealth of information, not only about python, but about programming as a whole. In terms of projects, having some of your own projects, as well as participating in open source projects. The latter is very important, as it will give you experience with working with other people's base code.
beyond that, start with some small projects, likes some snake games, or tic-tac-toe, then, move on to some more complex project. We have events hear that you can participate in, those will certainly help you along the way. In addition to knowing python, using version control is mandatory now for any programmer. So, having your projects on github, and being able to showcase them, would help as well
same goes for you as well @faint mist
I am working currently with Scala, java, and python now in big data, but started in python as well, just as you guys are.
digital fjord
Say I wanted to make ~15$ in 1-3 days online once. Is it possible? If so, where?
mint citrus
fiver
opal perch
@opal perch What do you suggest I do in order to be a successful lancer and all
@fervent zenith No clue, but one of the pinned messages is a guy who was self taught.
https://www.reddit.com/r/learnpython/comments/ctkypf/im_100_self_taught_landed_my_first_job_my/
swift veldt
That post is always a mood lifter.
opal perch
It's probably the most posted post in careers, anytime someone asks about being self-taught or landing first job without degree, this always gets posted
vapid jay
@fair zenith I was interning at a web company and they had some pentest guys. I have not worked with other security guys after that.
You know the basic pay us and we make you an app and they also did security testing for stuff like wordpress etc the normal web company stuff.
vapid jay
@obsidian acorn Hey, do you think If I Have few programs working for example : Rental market scanner for all cities on my country, nickname generator, and sudoku + Sudoku generator, and I have write everything of that to my Django project, so I can use everything from website, is enought to start as junior dev?
rough ridge
!tempmute 391549159162904576 1d this server is not the place to be spamming invite links. as you have been active on the server before you have only gotten a mute, but do know that this is something we do not take lightly.
inner wrenBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @vapid jay until 2020-05-22 11:49 (23 hours and 59 minutes).
ripe shard
guys I am in high school. I am highly interested in AIML. Can someone please recommend me some books to start? Thanks a lot!
I have also learned python
gilded valley
In the pins of #data-science-and-ml there are some useful links
opal perch
@gilded valley Thanks man, reading those now
inner wrenBOT
Hey @upbeat elm!
upbeat elm
@opal perch https://mml-book.github.io/
opal perch
Thanks man, not sure why you tagged me haha
alpine spire
what's the job market looking like for yall
swift veldt
got fired three weeks ago. But since I secured my next gig (going back to uni), I am okay. You?
vapid jay
f
sleek bluff
hi, I'm studying engineering right now and I'm really into programming and computer science, soon i have to declare my field in engineering . If someone that has plenty of workplace experience and does not mind answering a few questions please dm me. I would really appreciate it
marsh wind
@swift veldt was it covid linked? Like company having major issues bcs of confinement?
vapid jay
m
swift veldt
exactly, I was repatriated in France from the US by request of the Ministry of External Affairs, Loss
marsh wind
yeah, but repatriated usually is not the same as "fired"? @swift veldt
I thought they just wanted you back to home office
swift veldt
nope. Contract is over.
I am getting compensated a bit for the few months I should have worked in NYC but I am de facto not employed
marsh wind
and if they compensate few months of slsary ahaead
marsh wind
means you don't have to work, you have money, and now some time 😉
swift veldt
it's more like they give me a 2/3 of a salary over two months
marsh wind
oh
swift veldt
- paying for the repatriation costs
and yeah, with the time. my mom is taking of it putting me on chores like doing the plumbing, renovation, etc.
ahah
On the side I still have a corporate license on coursera so I am trying to max it out doing specializations.
I am flying through the UCSD's data structures and algorithms 6-course curriculum
and you, finishing the X soon?
alpine spire
where do you plan to go back to uni? US or France?
my company may start doing layoffs in june, so I'm bracing for it. I think our department will be okay, but who knows
swift veldt
I have been accepted in the MSc in Data Science/AI at Université Côte d'Azur in France. It's located in the Sophia-Antipolis tech hub in Southern France near Nice.
it's a region I know well
vapid jay
noice. they're trying to make that place "the silicon valley of europe"
swift veldt
Most teachers are from the https://www.inria.fr/en
vapid jay
don't know how well that project is going on but there is some technology industry there
swift veldt
trying is the word, ahah
but mostly IBM and Amadeus are the big corporate entities there
swift veldt
indeed.
vapid jay
me? no
swift veldt
talking to me or world, loss?
marsh wind
😂
swift veldt
you're a frog too, World?
vapid jay
🇫🇮
swift veldt
perkele
vapid jay
perkele
vapid jay
that's probably the last time i was there myself or something
well not quite
but yeah it was late november or something
and i got contacted from cote d'azur
they were looking for fresh meat or something
swift veldt
who contacted you?
vapid jay
i don't remember.
swift veldt
was it Amadeus - - the big airline booking company?
vapid jay
i don't think so
swift veldt
Cuz Amadeus is one large behemoth in the CA.
they have all their business operations there.
vapid jay
the place was some shithole
swift veldt
their data center and research is in Herding, Germany
vapid jay
the people were miserable
they basically took people in, squeezed whatever they could out of them for a small period, and let them get by on their own
there might or might not be work between projects
vapid jay
something like that yeah except they weren't accenture by name at least
swift veldt
I did financial consulting for a bit less than three years.
no thanks
whatcha doing now?
vapid jay
trying to find a new job. today had an interview for a remote position
swift veldt
nice! What industry/role?
vapid jay
the job is gonna be IT but the precise nature of the job is not clear. it's gonna be software development\architecture but I don't know precisely yet.
then in the future when things get rolling maybe there will be some new feature development doing machine learning too.
swift veldt
very neat
marsh wind
why you want to change the company?
swift veldt
?
marsh wind
that was to @vapid jay 🙂
fringe plume
Prepare to learn to code in french
slender grove
Prepare to learn to code in french
@fringe plume in french ?
fringe plume
I bet they use special modified compilers to let them have their special characters in var names/namespaces
slender grove
I bet they use special modified compilers to let them have their special characters in var names/namespaces
@fringe plume i see can be difficult to understand it
fringe plume
A lot of countries do programming, much fewer program in the native language :p
marsh wind
I think it was just a pun due to hove French people prefer French language over English
P.S. comments in code can be in Frenglish, but there are no special modified compilers
swift veldt
I do prefer English over French tbh. English has this conciseness to it which I really like
But I'm as bad in my mother tongue than I am in English, so 🤷
Python: PEP8
French Python: PÈP8
fringe plume
xD
marsh wind
google translate sais it would be PAP
vapid jay
... that looks like some ancient thing
the first one uses line numbers. the second one uses special characters like the weird diamond. neither one have been in use in modern languages for god knows how many decades
swift veldt
RIP, Lit
Cherche: find
C entier long: long integer/character?
C text: character text
fringe plume
they do this in France tho I've tried to get a job over there a few times
In Spain I bumped into it but far from as much
swift veldt
vers: to/towards
Demandeur: Request(er) abbreviated Dmdr
Evenement (abbreviated Evmt) : event
Only rptg I don't get so far
fringe plume
who needs international talent when you have the baguette ^^
marsh wind
I had tech tasks given in French and full interview in French but no-one objected to the fact that I had comments/jupyter markdown in English
fringe plume
eh just random frontend/backend stuff
shut geyser
cause, lot of frenchs makes fun of dev in french because they use too much english
fringe plume
c# java js php~
shut geyser
erh never seen or heard of that
fringe plume
yeah that's the feeling I got 😛
shut geyser
like french names for variables ok
fringe plume
like here in sweden it's really the opposite, if you write swedish variable names and stuff you will get laughed at daily
shut geyser
but languages wrote in French?
fringe plume
also
it's really not ok
😛
very limited cases where it's ok, like in the military where language actually helps to serve as a step of security
like I'd imagine china benefits from writing chinese var names and namespaces
shut geyser
i had flemmish variables in code sometimes
not mine
i guess everyone is doing it a bit
fringe plume
southern belgium
that's french
I did work in mons for a while
with french people
but they didn't code so much in french
shut geyser
Yeah it's dissapearing
fringe plume
probably faster in belgium than france tho 😛
shut geyser
Why would they
fringe plume
country is already multilingual