career-advice

[sick mist]

Man, I'm really sorry for you

Must be tough🙁

[abstract spindle]

It's crippling but what're you gonna do

I can only sit here and wait for nothing to happen

[sick mist]

Well, I guess you can always hustle here and there, but there's a lot of people hustling all the same I'm afraid

Besides WordPress you don't have any other skills you could trade?

[abstract spindle]

None that I can think of

WordPress, front end development, those types of things

IT maybe idk

[sick mist]

Do you have a portfolio ?

[abstract spindle]

https://github.com/bick

[sick mist]

I don't really see WordPress work there

[abstract spindle]

my wp work has only been for agencies that i've worked for

which my resume highlights

[lone shell]

@abstract spindle I feel you man, you are not alone. This current situation is hitting all of us in some way or another. However, remember that, after hardship comes ease. Even when things are going smoothly, never consider yourself exempt from the possibility of your reality getting turned upside down.. Control, as much as we might believe it to be within our grasp, is just an illusion... Try to take this time you term "rock bottom" to go beast mode on developing yourself and your passions, keep looking for opertunities to grow and keep your chin up.

eer ting gon be aaaight bruh

[abstract spindle]

I'm taking this time to start my own company, which is my dream job but it's hard to feel like it's going well when you have no money

[sick mist]

Ow, this is another story 😅

Owning my company, I can assure you it's not as sexy as it seems😄

Worth it, but very demanding, I wouldn't recommend until you have some skills you can trade for sure

In the current context you'll have to wear many hats and it might distract you from getting money in the bank to begin with

But if that's your dream, you'll do it one day, don't worry 😉

[abstract spindle]

Here's the problem, I have skills and I like to think I'm a pretty talented web developer, but it's hard communicating that on a resume

I've been making websites for 8+ years

professionally for 2

[sick mist]

Yeah, problem is the competition, there's too many competent web devs

[fleet marten]

If you're serious about the business you need to actively reach out to potential customers. Scout local businesses, check their websites, mock up a sample and offer it to them at a price that can get you work.

If someone has a website that hasn't been updated since 1990, find some research showing the impact of a good website

show them some samples of what you could doo

pitch 2 or 3 ideas

I'd go sole prop for now, but LLC's are always good

Not sure where in the business creation process you are

But if you don't have a name, no one is going to ask for your help. Especially in these times. Business owners are going to be less likely to want to invest

but a website is paramount

when everyone is stuck at home, especially restaurants

make it clear they are available for takeout / delivery

You need to show them how you'll mkae them more money, then they're willing to share.

Just my $.02

but 8 years of web development is nothing to sneeze at

[sick mist]

Yep, that's solid, but indeed you'll need to hustle. In which area are you @abstract spindle?

[fleet marten]

If you want your own business, in the first year expect to lose money and spend 100 hours a week doing so.

haha

it's a lifechanging endeavor

if you give it your all though, the results can be fantastic, just don't expect to see them any time soon

you can't give up, you just need to work through it, every hour of every day, nurture your new child

though you do need to mix in some family time if you have a family

[abstract spindle]

well i mean im not making money rn anyways so i might as well be productive while im not making money

[fleet marten]

Exactly

Go to google maps

Look up a certain cuisine of restaurant

then compare their websites

pick the worst 3 and mock up drafts of how you'd improve em

interactive menu

order taking system

the works

Then call and ask if you could pitch them an idea, they might take you up, they might not, but if they have contact info you can always email them

all you lose is time, you can always change the name and add it to a portfolio

the more you have to show, the more likely a client will accept

I had to pick a website vendor in my previous job

we looked at big shops and sole props

[wind hinge]

Hmm i like your idea, i might try it to start my projects as i am front end dev and learning flask atm

[fleet marten]

ultimately went with a local vendor wit ha really good price, $20k

This was an ~$2 bil bank, so community bank with like 20 branches, solid following

[wind hinge]

Cuz i want to start making money with it as well :(

[fleet marten]

other vendors wanted upwards of $50k

but I think we ended up with a contract that's a fair bit annually

don't work there anymore, and wasn't entirely privvy to the financials

was a fun process, designing the website through them

I Was taking their jpeg mockups and editing them in paint and sending them back

they criticized something not being straight and I Was like, "my bad, did it in paint" and their response was something I Can't even describe

I was like, "you're the pros, I just updated this in paint becasue I thought it'd look better" and it did, but wasn't stragith

gotta use the tools you have

enough about me, haha

back to kaggle to learn this thing you call Python

[wind hinge]

Tho as front end dev its hard to find job (at least without frameworks), i open freelancer and find like 50 bids on almost everything :((

I dont even have cv or project abt which i can talk like this big company is using my site

Design*

[abstract spindle]

Freelancer and those sites are a race to the bottom

[mint pumice]

@fleet marten has some real good tips here, all should be taking notes!

[fleet marten]

thank you!

Anyone wanna help me figure out my life? very easy to throw down some bullets, unfortunately that critical execution part is tough

[vapid jay]

Hello

[sick mist]

I'll be happy to continue this conversation tomorrow 💤

[mystic abyss]

How off book do you have to be for jobs?

[fleet marten]

?

How do you mean/

[mystic abyss]

I mean like know “oh I just use a insert() here and and a x=y here to get Work Project”, so pretty much what do I have to have committed to memory and not have notes?

[marsh wind]

still dont get you

[opal perch]

I think he's asking, how much should he know off the top of his head, without needing to look it up

[mystic abyss]

Bingo

Because I just read what it’s like to have a job and everyone is like “you spend a lot more time finding out what to do vs actually doing it.”

[white karma]

Knowing the basics inside and out is probably the best to start

[mystic abyss]

Like would finishing Automate the Boring Stuff mean I know the basics?

[white karma]

I would say so

But that’s like the barest of basics imo

[mystic abyss]

Right now I’m learning SQL, not a language I know, and am about to learn how to incorporate Python with it. I can also use Twilio, also not a language, with python after finishing their tutorial. So is that like being tier one?

[fleet marten]

I thought the running joke is programmers just google 90% of their programs

And fake it till you make it

[abstract spindle]

good luck getting an entry level job rn

if you hacked google hq's wifi and looked at their most viewed websites i'd be willing to bet my left nut stackoverflow is in the top 3

[white karma]

I-Is googling not what you’re supposed to do?

[mystic abyss]

The secret is to use Bing.

[abstract spindle]

@shadow moss question: what exactly does an sre do

[shadow moss]

Make sure stuff is running

I've heard it called "Sysadmins who can code" but it's generally deeper then that

[vapid jay]

Hey I posted yesterday but I have a slightly different question. I'm struggling with the mathematics required for my Comp Sci degree. I'm on course to fail my current class, and I still have one more higher level one after that. My college does have two different Cyber Security programs, as well as a Information Management Systems degree, and a "Software Development and Security" degree, which I'm assuming is just a more hand on comp sci degree. From an employers perspective, are any of these worth pursuing? Or would I be better off just getting a degree in a "safer" field like Finance, Marketing, or Psychology?
To clarify, I know it sounds odd asking if I should pursue those other degrees over the more technical ones, but my primary concern is job security. I already know how to code, I've spent the past two years becoming a somewhat competent developer in my own time. I don't know if it would be "safer" for me to get a non-tech degree, and then have options open to me in that field as well as CS with my self-taught skills, or if it would be "safer" for me to pursue the technical degrees still, even if they are slightly weaker.
For more clarity, every other degree I listed has easier math requirements. Which is why I'm considering switching at all.

TL;DR

As a self-taught dev, should I pursue a degree in an unrelated field so as to have options available to me both in that field and in software, or should I pursue any tech-related degree - even if it means having a slightly weaker degree than my peers and not having the safety net of another field to fall back to?

[radiant moon]

man that sounds like one of those "good problems"

"I can get jobs with this degree or that one; which should I pick"?

but it's up to you -- how much you value an enjoyable job versus a higher salary

better comute? Interesting co-workers? Nice neighborhood for the office to be in?

I can't give any advice on any of those things

[shadow moss]

Artificial, I recommend degrees that are more broad

[frosty laurel]

Hello every1

[shadow moss]

So no to Cyber Security Degree, MIS is ok, it's looked as soft option compared to Computer Science and Software Development and Security Degree is weird but I'd wouldn't be a fan

and non tech related degrees can be good as well, teams like diversity and Finance Degree can be useful if doing financial programming

Marketing, meh

Psychology can be useful, how do we better code UIs for users, how do they think?

[frosty laurel]

i want to ask whether there is any scope for employments in the machine learning field which I can work remotely, like kind of remote job?

[vapid jay]

@shadow moss My main concern is just being able to get a job. Of course a higher salary is ideal, but security is what I value above all else. I have this weird like anxiety about ending up homeless and a failure so, if I can not do that and not work some shitty minimum wage or blue labor job, then I'll be at least content.

With that said, what degree do you think would afford the most oppurtunity?

[frosty laurel]

i'm from sales background and want to get into the tech industry

[vapid jay]

@radiant moon Were you referring to me 😆

[radiant moon]

yes

[vapid jay]

I don't know if I'd call it a "good" problem, I mean I guess to an extent, but it's still a difficult place to be and the wrong decision could definitely have second and third order effects down the line.

[radiant moon]

as with pretty much any important decision 😐

[frosty laurel]

please someone guide me a bit

[abstract spindle]

In my experience, what you get a degree in has not a ton to do with starting salary versus where you went to school. If you have a business degree and are trying to be a programmer and you have no professional experience, even no internships, then it’s going to be harder than if you had a comp sci degree

But on the contrary, it all is going to come down to experience. All the degree concentration is going to do is making it easier to get that initial job

[frosty laurel]

can someone start remote job without having a technical school degree in hand?

[abstract spindle]

Sure

But you have to understand that with remote roles it’s a larger job market

So if you’re entry level with no experience chances are you’re not the best candidate

You are probably going to have to work for an employer or 2 over 2-3 years and then you can try and get remote jobs and higher paying roles no matter what you get your degree in

[frosty laurel]

but i can start like with less pay over remote, someone or the other must have started from no experience at all right?

there are certain institute which makes you competent for doing remote jobs, i guess

by helping you learn various kinds of programming langugaes, database skills, etc

[abstract spindle]

If you can convince a company to hire you sure, but that’s the problem is getting someone to hire you, especially with the size of a remote pool

[frosty laurel]

so that you will be competent enough for doing remote jobs

there are some computer training institutes which takes some money to teach you how to become a remote developer

mostly, people do remote work for web development right?

or is there any scope for AI,ML remote as well?

[abstract spindle]

How to become a remote developer

1. build a nice portfolio, contribute to open source projects
2. apply for remote jobs
3. money

there you go that’ll be $10,000

[frosty laurel]

$10,000 salary or the cost of becoming a remote dev?

[abstract spindle]

$10,000 for me telling you how to become a remote dev because that’s exactly what those programs you’re talking about are gonna charge you

for the exact same advice i just gave you

[frosty laurel]

ok, they are saying like they will teach me everything but they will not charge me anything untill I get a remote job and untill i start earning $1000, then from there they will start charging from my salary 15%, capped till $10000

I still can't decide what to learn like : web development using python or machine learning?

[vapid jay]

@abstract spindle In response to your comment, I'm fucked either way. My employer has me working in Europe and I'm going to school remotely. I'm forming no connections and zero oppurtunity to network. My school isn't extremely reputable either. It's not like Devry or anything and it doesn't necessarily have a bad name, but it's definitely not going to get me recognized or help me stand out in anyway

[abstract spindle]

Then the biggest thing for you is going to be networking outside of school. Try getting yourself out there as much as possible.

Im debating on switching my degree to computer information systems from business administration. I love business and want to start my own business, but I figure if I really want to I can always get an MBA

[vapid jay]

Seeing as I live in a foriegn country where I don't speak the language and don't intend to live in for longer than the next year, networking outside of school would be a difficult and ultimately fruitless endeavor.

I want to start my own business as well, it's actually why I originally started teaching myself to code 2+ years ago. I decided not to pursue my original endeavor, but there is always more out there.

I considered a BA, I actually have an associates in it, but from everything I've read there is just a surplus of students with Bus Admin degrees and it's pretty difficult to stand out with one

[abstract spindle]

I’ve lived the majority of my life saying i’m going to get a business degree, but I enjoy working in tech and as I’ve gotten older I’m starting to think I kinda want to get my degree in tech, but it’s just hard for me to accept that i’m not getting a bachelors in busienss

it’s just since i’ve said i’m gonna do it my whole life it feels wrong to not do it even if it’s for the best

[vapid jay]

That's understandable, I almost feel the same way about Comp Sci now haha.

[abstract spindle]

idk what to do

[vapid jay]

Same yo

[frosty laurel]

I also want to start new business, that is why i want to learn IT skills

MBA degrees are vague these days, right?

[abstract spindle]

MBA is just a broad business masters degree

The rule of thumb I tend to use is I won’t get a masters degree unless someone else is paying for it

[frosty laurel]

i want to know what is difference between functional programming language and python?

[vapid jay]

um

Well first off, why?

Did you read a medium article talking about how functional programming is the way of the future?

I don't want to make any presumptions, but I'm assuming you aren't very experienced right?

And that's fine! We all start somewhere.

But I would worry too much about that

Just learn a language

Get comfortable with it

Build some stuff

And you'll have a far more intimate understanding of the answer to that question than I could possibly convey

[frosty laurel]

yes, i read an article on medium which said about haskel and scala and functional programming language as the future for ml

i'm so confused about these things, because I try to learn online and then suddenly something pops up saying, this thing you are working on isn't good and you should try this new functional programming instead. don't know why this happens everytime

[vapid jay]

Yeah

Dude

or dudette

I call everyone dude so whatever

Either way

Ignore those articles

Don't even read any tech related articles until you have a solid foundation in programming

and even then, take them with a grain of salt

Every week there's some new sensational article like that

Just ignore it

Don't let it drive your indecision

Choose something and stick with it

I can help you choose

Tell me, what do you want to do? What is your end goal? @frosty laurel

[frosty laurel]

yeah

my end goal is to get a stable job

in the IT industry because I come from a sales background

have very less idea of how this industry works

i'm good at maths till coleege

and due to covid-19 i lost my job and then i saw that people in IT working at home and earning

that is why i decided to get into IT

still in my small town there is lockdown and these IT people working remotely

there isn't any software company or work available in my city but these people do like kind of freelance work and earn money online

somebody suggested me to learn python and sent me this discord application link

so i joined it and started asking questions

[mint pumice]

@frosty laurel learn Python first, then think about functional programming and ml

If your goal is a job, you need to build up a CV and a portfolio, and it needs to be filled with working, visible projects a remote employer can see and evaluate to know that you know how to program

[frosty laurel]

ok

but what is the difference between these two : python and functional programming using haskell?

[vapid jay]

@frosty laurel There are many differences, but seriously don't worry about it. I can say with absolute confidence that the medium article you read was either wrong, exaggerating things, or was way above the level you need to focus.

Just learn python, or better, learn Javascript.

Python was my first language, but I wish it had be Javascript

[frosty laurel]

ok

[mint pumice]

I would second learning JavaScript first if your goal is a job

[frosty laurel]

i have started learning python

[woven prawn]

anyone has interview experiences with Apple? I've got one coming up tomorrow and I honestly don't know what to expect.

[wind hinge]

Can anyone explain me how i can find interships and where, when i dont have cv (i cant even find someone who would give me opportunity) but on real sites they want 1 year of experience or know Java + C++ + Python...?

I know html css and some part of js, and i am doing python, moved to flask and i cant create a database :v

[slow iris]

@wind hinge You should probably get a CV

[wind hinge]

I dont even know how to make one, that will look good

I am self learning, i dont have certificate or something like that

Or degree

[slow iris]

just put on it what your good at (i.e programming skills etc) maybe show them some stuff you have made. Talk about some skills you have (working in a team etc.)

[wind hinge]

Working in team is something i am doing, I can speak 2 languages (English, Serbian), I am working currently at some algorith exercises and thatd it

Uhh

[marsh wind]

one way or another you need CV to apply for things

[slow iris]

yeah

[wind hinge]

But it would be best to out in CV working expiriance, so i am tryung to find one without it, then creat cv and put places where i worked

[frosty laurel]

Bonsai: hi, how are you doing?

Bonsai: where are you located? USA or ASIA? what skills do you have?

[shut geyser]

@wind hinge on overleaf, a online LateX editor, there is some CV templates that look really good

Have a section with your education, another with your skill, another with your projects. You should resume them in 1 or 2 line i think

Languages should have a dedicated small subsection i believe

[wind hinge]

thanks i ll try it

[woven prawn]

please do not send cold invite. not cool.

[frosty laurel]

ok

i'm sorry

i'm new to this platform, plz don't mind

[mild zenith]

Knowing how to make a CV is a learned skill, and it can be a bit of a chore

There's no shame in asking for help starting out or having someone look them over

True, but sometimes it's better to get guidance on how to start, because if in the end it's a mess, it's hard to just fix certain things. Like building a house, you need a good foundation, or the whole thing will fall apart

[slow iris]

wdym? @vapid jay

[vapid jay]

like review it

[slow iris]

don't think i am really qualified to do that

[mild zenith]

Just link it and we'll see whether anything jumps out at us

[inner wren]

Hey @vapid jay!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.pdf). We currently allow the following file types: .3gp, .3g2, .avi, .bmp, .gif, .h264, .jpg, .jpeg, .m4v, .mkv, .mov, .mp4, .mpeg, .mpg, .png, .tiff, .wmv, .svg, .psd, .ai, .aep, .xcf, .mp3, .wav, .ogg.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[vapid jay]

o

[mild zenith]

Could do it as like.... Google doc? Does that support .pdf files?

[vapid jay]

yeah google doc should

gimme a sec, lemme upload it

there

[slow iris]

can't open it lol

[wind hinge]

Hmm its interesting idea for project, i mean cancer detection

At least to me idk how much its comlicated

[vocal mountain]

python

[vapid jay]

why are u unable to open it

@slow iris

[wind hinge]

I needed to reopen it

[vocal mountain]

python and visual studio code

[mild zenith]

Yeah it works, Prince

[vapid jay]

coolio

[vocal mountain]

pyday + pynight

[mild zenith]

@vocal mountain Is there a reason you're randomly saying things?

[vapid jay]

^

[vocal mountain]

i just love add reactions

[mild zenith]

@vapid jay To my eyes, this looks great. But I don't know what the standards are for CVs these days. Haven't had to write one in like... 7 years?

[vocal mountain]

atom?

[marsh wind]

few things - if you post cv in the open don't keep there your phone number

[mild zenith]

@vocal mountain While they are awesome, this isn't really the channel to be doing that here

[marsh wind]

if that one is real

[vapid jay]

Thanks, ig it really depends on what level you are in your career

[mild zenith]

Ah yeah, fair point

[marsh wind]

also: your email

it is a lillte point

[wind hinge]

Uh god i ama t hs not in uni its not impressive at all :((

[vapid jay]

alright

[marsh wind]

but it is advice to have something like "first.lastname@gmil,com"

and not "alislearning123"

[vapid jay]

is it a deal breaker

[marsh wind]

no it's a small thing

[mild zenith]

Probably not but you can have it route to your main email anyway

So there wouldn't be a difference to you functionally

[marsh wind]

but it might make you look unprofessional

[vapid jay]

gotcha, i tried choosing some email name that still seemed eductaional

but contained my name in it also

[marsh wind]

I had some very credible people advising hardly to only do "[e-mail]"

or last.first

anyway

to have only your name and surname, no numbers or extra words

[vapid jay]

right

[mild zenith]

Certainly better than [e-mail]

[vapid jay]

lmao exactly

[marsh wind]

well yeah

[mild zenith]

But it couldn't hurt things

I'm with Loss on this one

[vocal mountain]

who want for python get 4.0 react:

[marsh wind]

you should look proffesional on CV, that is the whole point.

[wind hinge]

Stop spamming :v

[mild zenith]

@vocal mountain Stop with the spam, last time I'm going to ask

[vocal mountain]

k

[marsh wind]

other than that your CV looks good to me

[vapid jay]

thanks bro

[marsh wind]

maybe add bit of highlight

[mild zenith]

@vocal mountain If you want to look at the various reactions you can do it on a junk message in #bot-commands or something

[marsh wind]

like in your projects

[vapid jay]

gotcha yea

[marsh wind]

you can do bold for python

html

etc

[vapid jay]

yea

[marsh wind]

like for technologies you want people to see you used

[vapid jay]

definitely

[marsh wind]

P.S. In tools, idk if you really need to write IDEs/editors

[mild zenith]

Although mentioning an understanding of Git like you have there can't hurt

At least in my eyes

[marsh wind]

git for sure

[mild zenith]

But I just want to stress to take advice from me with a grain of salt, as I'm not in the industry

[marsh wind]

i forgot, are you in academia?

or it was Ves?

or someone else xD

[mild zenith]

Ves is. I'm in house IT for an accounting firm

[marsh wind]

I meant that things like VSCode, Eclipse, Atom Sublime

[mild zenith]

Sure

[marsh wind]

not really needed

[vapid jay]

yea true

[mild zenith]

Of the ones on there, Git and Bash are the ones I'd keep

[vapid jay]

for sure

[mild zenith]

Although I'm not familiar with XCode

[vapid jay]

XCode/AndroidStudio I think i should keep also

[marsh wind]

of editors if I'd put any it would be

[mild zenith]

Ugh

[marsh wind]

because vim does have learning curve

much steeper

[mild zenith]

Yeah but it also feels like a "i'm so smart look at me I use vim"

[marsh wind]

lol true

[mild zenith]

But that's a personal beef, not a professional one

[vapid jay]

lol yea

[marsh wind]

also, is tkinter a web tech?

[mild zenith]

Not typically

It's a GUI framework

[marsh wind]

I ask becasue @vapid jay listed in under Web 🙂

and I had an impression it's like QT/Kivy etc for desktop GUI

[mild zenith]

Yarp

[vapid jay]

yeah i just dropped it under there cause i didn't wanna make a whole new category for these lil python frameworks

[mild zenith]

Sure

Maybe you could turn Tools into Tools and Frameworks

[marsh wind]

well if oyu shorten Tools you can make one there

or even that

[vapid jay]

alright

is it worth listing stuff like tkinter, kivy, pygame, pyqt5

[marsh wind]

well

i'd say you have to adapt

based on job listing

[mild zenith]

I'd say...

[marsh wind]

or job you apply to

also you have projects

at leasy one with Kivy I see

[mild zenith]

GUI Frameworks (Tkinter, PyQT5, Kivy) or something

[vapid jay]

yea

[mild zenith]

But something to specify that you've worked with GUI setup, which is both desirable as a skill and a pain in the ass to get right

[marsh wind]

some peopel also said me that job seeker has to tweak CV for every job

[mild zenith]

Yep

[marsh wind]

like change accents

based on requirements

[mild zenith]

I've heard that as well

Playing to your audience

[vapid jay]

damn that's a pain

[mild zenith]

Yeah it's not suggested unless you have a short list of people you REALLY want to join

[vapid jay]

yea like fang or something

[marsh wind]

but it might pay off for short list of compamines you really think you might fit

like if you plan to send 100 applications per week

[gilded valley]

Changes to CV can be relatively minimal. Just changing some words to match the wording in the posting takes about 2m and probably helps

[marsh wind]

via all possible job boards

[vapid jay]

im tryna get an internship next summer after i graduate high school

[marsh wind]

then yeah it is a pain

[mild zenith]

Oh wait, this is all as a HS student?

Damn

[marsh wind]

wut?? 😂

man you're good

[vapid jay]

o fr?

i thought i was behind lmao

i see all these kids coding as an infant

[mild zenith]

Well there's no real need to compare

Everyone is different and learns at different paces, etc.

[vapid jay]

right

[mild zenith]

But just to compare, I didn't start coding diligently until like... 3 years ago?

Sooo

And I'm 30

[vapid jay]

never too late

[mild zenith]

Yep

That's my thoughts on it

[wind hinge]

Wait can you resend ur cv?

You are somehowmy age so i want to know what i need apx to knoe xD

[marsh wind]

what you mean>

link is still live

if you mean this

[vapid jay]

i deleted cause phone number

but whatever

[marsh wind]

oh

I guess it took it from cache for me

[vapid jay]

ye idk

[gilded valley]

it's live for me and I didn't click on it til Lossberg just linked it

so, I don't think its very deleted

[marsh wind]

oh I guess he droped the link

[wind hinge]

Yup thats what i thought thanks

[marsh wind]

not the CV from link

[vapid jay]

link is still active

i just removed from discord chat

[gilded valley]

ah

[marsh wind]

yeah sorry

[vapid jay]

np

[mild zenith]

Honestly, as a HS student, this is solid.

[gilded valley]

you don't have any soft skills on there, you probably want some

[mild zenith]

Remind me, soft skills?

[vapid jay]

most people say that listing soft skills doesn't really help your case in a technical job

[gilded valley]

teamwork

leadership

[mild zenith]

Oh right

[vapid jay]

they're more expected of you

[gilded valley]

other nonsense

[mild zenith]

Customer service, etc.

[gilded valley]

It's important for the HR screen

[mild zenith]

Actually yeah, I found that stuff like "knows how to use office phone" or other stuff like that can come up

Knows how to use a fax...

[vapid jay]

damn lol

[mild zenith]

We still have one at our firm

In fairness, we have a fair amount of older clients, so it makes sense

[vapid jay]

gothca yeah

[marsh wind]

hat is how my looks like

like it is usually just some fluff

but actual comapines do want you to have those skills

[mild zenith]

Which does make sense

[marsh wind]

so HRs will likely look at them

or recutiters

[mild zenith]

No one wants to hire someone who can't communicate with a team or slacks off all the time

[vapid jay]

yea

[marsh wind]

in the end they still will not just take your word for it, but ask about your experinece

examples from you life

etc

to see whethet you have it or no

behavioral questions, etc

[mild zenith]

Make sure you get a list of references if you can

Any jobs you've had, teachers, etc.

[marsh wind]

but the more or less unanimous is that you need that section in CV

[gilded valley]

Found it thankfully - there's the way I list skills on mine

[marsh wind]

for real, you need those on CV?

[mild zenith]

Well no

But like

[gilded valley]

that's the exact PDF I used to get an internship

[mild zenith]

I guess that's more for a resume isn't it

I keep forgetting those are two different things

[marsh wind]

oh

[gilded valley]

in the UK at least, I don't think there's a concept of Resume*

[marsh wind]

I interchange CV and resume

[vapid jay]

not a cv

[gilded valley]

yeah, I treat CV and resume as the same

[marsh wind]

I think it's US people who treat it differently

[mild zenith]

If I remember correctly, the CV is the single page synopsis of you. Where as a resume is the more detailed couple pages

I might be 10000% wrong, though

[marsh wind]

I think it is reverse

usually academics have CV

[mild zenith]

Gotcha

[marsh wind]

with pages and pages

[gilded valley]

Even from US people, I've heard differing definitions of Resume and CV - I've heard that Resume is longer and that it's shorter

[marsh wind]

hence I always call it CV

[gilded valley]

so I don't think there is much of a difference

[marsh wind]

I can say for 1000% that academia calls CV a thing where you have everything

[mild zenith]

Sure.

[marsh wind]

all you accolades, papers, invited talks

etc

basically everything about you

[mild zenith]

Ah gotcha

[gilded valley]

I guess it makes sense that academia uses a more rigorous definition of curriculum vitae

[mild zenith]

Well I mean either way, it's good to have a list of references regardless. Maybe not as a main part of the CV, but possibly still having a list on hand can make a big difference

[marsh wind]

in here tho there is no such thing as resume

only CV

(France)

[mild zenith]

Come prepared with it if they ask for it

It feels like the hiring process changes so fast it's hard to know exactly what people want or how to give it to them

Maybe I'm just getting old

[marsh wind]

30 - old? 😂

[mild zenith]

My knees say it is

[vapid jay]

30 ain't old fam

[mild zenith]

It sounds like I'm rolling marbles around when I stand up

Weird crunchy clacky noises

But back to topic, it never hurts to have a list of people who can vouch for your character

[marsh wind]

nah I think hiring process is kind of race. Like there are new ATS systems.... and new ways to make it past them. Refferals, new trends etc.

people are inventive, on both sides

[vapid jay]

refferals are the wave rn

[gilded valley]

referrals have always been very important

[vapid jay]

how do u get experience if no one hires u without experience 🤔

[wind hinge]

i am wondering that whole time

[gilded valley]

A) people do hire people without experience B) internships to get experience C) Volunteering

[vapid jay]

nah its a joke

[marsh wind]

yeah indeed. We are living in the age of ATS and 200+ applications for one position on linkedin, so refferals are just getting increasingle impoortnant

[gilded valley]

It might be a joke, but it's also a very common complaint

[marsh wind]

also your projects are a kind of experinece

[wind hinge]

I never saw anyone to hire someone without xp, even interships require 1 year of working

[gilded valley]

well

[marsh wind]

even if it is not a prof experinece

[gilded valley]

now you have

[mild zenith]

Well they are and they aren't

[gilded valley]

hello

I got an internship at a massive corp with practically 0 experience

[mild zenith]

Okay so they're coding experience, but employers like to know that you can work with people

[vapid jay]

a lot of my friends just fake being tutors to put that down as experience

[marsh wind]

well people also do colab projects 🙂

[gilded valley]

that will come up in interviews, and it will be apparent you're bullshitting

[marsh wind]

and like if you contribute to open soruce things

[mild zenith]

I mean it kind of is. You're managing your time, working with a client (your student) and what have you

[marsh wind]

you do have to interact with people

[mild zenith]

^

It's a valid thing to put

[gilded valley]

claiming to have been a tutor if you weren't probably isn't a great idea

[wind hinge]

if anyone knows such company or people or sites i would like to see one like that

[gilded valley]

for what? Internships?

if so, what country?

[wind hinge]

Serbia

not best place

[gilded valley]

no idea for Serbia - but you can apply for internships in other countries

[wind hinge]

i dont mind other countries but only if it can be done remotely

[gilded valley]

not a good time to apply right now. But gradcracker.co.uk is a site you can use to look in the UK

then

there's nothing

you have to go there

[wind hinge]

oh 😦

[mild zenith]

Not entirely true

[marsh wind]

well remote internships are likely rare

interns usually should be heavily supervised no?

[mild zenith]

People are for damn sure wanting IT professionals that can troubleshoot server issues and loads

Yep

Because they're essentially there as students

[gilded valley]

I've never heard of a remote internship

and I've spent a lot of time looking

[mild zenith]

Or like... apprentices

[gilded valley]

not for remote - but for internships in general

remote apprentices is also a massive no

[mild zenith]

True

[wind hinge]

hmm i saw some interships at indeed site

remorely

but they were asking for Java, c, python and few years of exp

[gilded valley]

I also think it's pretty unreasonable to expect any company to hire someone to work remotely as an intern - remote work requires some extent of trust, that's fine for normal employes - but not interns with no/little experience

[mild zenith]

I might have agreed a couple months ago but now... I mean depending on how this all goes, it might be the new normal

Still too early to know for sure

[shadow moss]

hiring jr. devs is soooo difficult

you open jr. dev slot and just get flooded

[marsh wind]

yeah. anyway I think if you can find remote internship consider yourself increadiblty lucky

[shadow moss]

our recruiter has said multiple time he wishes there was .25c charge to apply for jobs

[gilded valley]

Covid has turned some summer internships into remote things

but that wasn't the original plan for those

[marsh wind]

well yeah Covid reshapes a lot of things around remote

[gilded valley]

@shadow moss Are the bulk of applications trash or feasible candidates?

[shadow moss]

trash

[marsh wind]

ofc trash 🙂 heh

[shadow moss]

for example, we require US/Green Card because of government requirements

[wind hinge]

okay i understand those interships are harder to be remote, someone can be ;azy and do nothing, i just see schools...

[marsh wind]

problem is how to separate trash from feasible i guess

[shadow moss]

but massive wave of people hoping for visa sponsorship despite it's never going to happen

[gilded valley]

That's kinda on other companies more than it is applicants. I know a lot of places that list eligiblity to work as a requirement, but might actually help with visa sponsorships for exceptional candidates

although thats in the UK

where it's not near as difficult

[marsh wind]

what's the deal with visa sponsorship? why so hard?

[shadow moss]

for US, it's massive PITA

and for this tiny project we have, it's .gov related, we cannot have anyone working on it who is not US citizen/LPR (Green card)

[marsh wind]

in here a guy from my lab got hired a year ago, and that had to wait for 4 months for work permit. When he reffered me to his company and they learned that I am not a holder of permit they immediately turned me down even pre interview

and said they never will deal with those visas again 😂

[shadow moss]

and even if it wasn't a requirement, because of the cost of visa getting, we are not oging to spend the money on Jr. Dev

[marsh wind]

given tho, that company of his is kinda dumb in that regard and has little idea about different residence permit types

[shadow moss]

anyways, that's just one example, other thing is for jr. devs, we require you know either C# or Java, know being you can write simple class and hello world

then we get all these python only people or JS people

so yea, our recruiters get flooded and wish there was some way make people have some skin in the game

thus her desire for "it costs a quarter to apply"

[marsh wind]

I managed few times to apply via linkedin easy apply early on

and just watch the number of applicants sky rocket

[shadow moss]

she said at her last job, in a job posting for a really good job, she put an address and said "Physical copies accepting at this address, physical copies will be given better screening" and she found the candidate via that

[marsh wind]

like in matter of hour it is 50+ even for some small company or starup, no big names

[shadow moss]

my current company won't let her do that

[marsh wind]

because it's unfair or something?

[shadow moss]

because letter handling is difficult

and yea, unfair

plus it involves a little more work because the physical copy candidates won't be in HR system since they didn't apply virtually

I'm at a megacorp, THE PAPER PUSHERS MUST BE SATISIFIED!

[slow iris]

wdym you mean by megacorp?

[shadow moss]

large corporation, member of S&P 500

10k+ employees and probably double in contractors

[slow iris]

oh ok

[shadow moss]

not FAANG though

[vapid jay]

how do u get refferals

[shadow moss]

it's hard for sure

[abstract spindle]

why are cloud engineer and architect certifications expensive lol

$150 - $200 per certification

[white karma]

That’s not bad really

Much less than a firearms permit

[woven prawn]

yeah man definitely don't use anything other than firstname.lastname[0-9].gmail

also link to your LinkedIn profile and github profile. if you don't have those, it's time to make one.

Also for Curriculum Vitae, you include every single thing you've done in the past, every single award, every single promotion, projects, publications etc. A CV is usually very long and detailed. A resume is much much more condense and usually doesn't exceed 2 pages.

[vapid jay]

who u talkin to @woven prawn

[woven prawn]

just general resume tips

[vapid jay]

ah

how is my GitHub

[gilded valley]

That tip for CV is the exact opposite of what I've heard elsewhere

and what I've used

except for what Lossberg mentioned about CVs in academia

[woven prawn]

most of the time CV and resume are used interchangeably to refer to the short one.

but if a recruiter asks for a CV specifically after he/she has your resume then it means the long one.

egyptian your github looks good.

[vapid jay]

thanks

[woven prawn]

yeah do you have a degree?

like you kinda want to put the specific degree there, for early college i believe it's an associates

[vapid jay]

im in high school rn

[woven prawn]

wot

[vapid jay]

our high school has connection to a university so we get to take classes there, but its still just highschool

[woven prawn]

then put your expected date of graduation there, that would help.

[vapid jay]

where

[woven prawn]

yeah

[vapid jay]

ye i dikd

did*

[woven prawn]

ahh yeah

i have no major complaints, really solid looking.

[vapid jay]

ty

[woven prawn]

lol looking at my own resume it's plain text only

formatted using invisible tables

[marsh wind]

That tip for CV is the exact opposite of what I've heard elsewhere
@gilded valley which tip?

[gilded valley]

Everything else I've read about CVs in general seems to imply that they ought to be relatively short, 1/2 pages. Except for what you mentioned about their use in academia

[marsh wind]

I think it is very langauge/culture dependent

[woven prawn]

In the United Kingdom, most Commonwealth countries, and Ireland, a CV is short (usually a maximum of two sides of A4 paper), and therefore contains only a summary of the job seeker's employment history, qualifications, education, and some personal information.

yeah i guess it's a Europe vs US thing.

[jaunty pendant]

https://i.imgur.com/SrEykz7.png
So Instead of dishing out 18k at the local coding guild, I figured I'd take the same approach but self-taught. It's a 14 week course, full-time (8 hours/day) that covers all these topics. Considering how long it took me to get to where I am now, I don't think they go into much detail.

Can anyone vouche for books that cover any of these topics? So far I've worked through No Starch Press' "Python Crash Course" and am almost done with "Automate the Boring Stuff". Trying to plan where to go next.

[neon moat]

https://www.reddit.com/r/learnpython/comments/ctkypf/im_100_self_taught_landed_my_first_job_my/ @jaunty pendant

[shadow moss]

In the US, almost no one asks for CV or if they do, they mean resume

[neon moat]

@jaunty pendant dont really understand how they can charge that much for all of that

just insane

So much in all of those different topics theres no way you could understand any of them in depth in such a short period of time

I mean you can pretty much just type into youtube each of those individual topics and learn from scratch without needing to pay

[dim berry]

wo

[shadow moss]

Fishy, for these exercises, are you using git and pushing to GitHub?

Make them private repos for sure but keep your code

[shut geyser]

@swift veldt i think i spotted your reddit account where you talk about your new career project eh

officially your stalker now

[swift veldt]

ahah

🏃‍♀️ ruuuuun

[woven prawn]

regarding the self-learning thing is that

should we always be supportive and encouraging, when someone's motive is to get a job with self-taught python, or should we be a little cautious and warn them about difficulty/feasibility

[molten spoke]

I'm self-taught, I've been teaching myself for the past 8 years

[woven prawn]

yeah i'm not saying self-taught is bad, it's just that it takes a lot effort

[shut geyser]

i just did got a job self taught, but i had a Master degree in smthg and i'm okayish in interview/CV/Cover letter

[woven prawn]

and it's really good if you are motivated etc

[white karma]

Honestly I think I’d do better with some kind of teacher

[shut geyser]

i think without an IT degree you get filtered a lot by companies that recruit on that criteria

[white karma]

Shame

[woven prawn]

but if you only view it as a career enhancer, wouldn't it make it far more difficult?

[shut geyser]

i think if you are self taught you had no obligation to do it, you could stick in your old job, since you had one

so you're kinda aware about why you make the switch

[woven prawn]

Yeah that’s true

[shut geyser]

i don't believe that people managed to push themselves, just for some $$$ more

(it does help though :p )

but i might be wrong and i'm biased a lit

lot

[white karma]

I don’t know about others, but the jump from 30k to 100k+ sounds very worth the work

[woven prawn]

Yeah regarding the filtering thing. I’m worried for someone self-taught and switching career, the self-taught part will hamper their job search.

[swift veldt]

it does help, but my switch wasn't money-based.

[white karma]

I believe the self taught only hampers you before you get to your first actual job

[shut geyser]

i don't think you'd hire self taught juniors for 100k even in US?

but i can be wrong again

[white karma]

Depends

[woven prawn]

I might be pessimistic, but I’ve seen doctors, accountants, general office workers etc pick up python only to stay unemployed for about a year or so.

[white karma]

I’m in California

[shut geyser]

here consulting companies tries to prey on fresh juniors, from school and self taught alike, salaries are far from shining

[swift veldt]

I mean, you have to switch careers with goals in mind, a very well built plan, and ideas on what you want to study. "Python" alone isn't enough.

[woven prawn]

yep yep

that's very true

[white karma]

Logically I chose programming for the money boost, that and I felt like I wasn’t moving up anywhere in the company I’m currently working for

[swift veldt]

confirmed Ember. Preying on both engineer and business school new grads

[woven prawn]

will it be unethical to not bring those parts up?

[swift veldt]

you should bring them up I think. Letting people know the good and the bad are important. Knowing one's own biasis and being transparent about them is key though.

[woven prawn]

like telling them learning just python is no where near what's gonna land them a job, rather than just encouragement and good wishes.

[jaunty pendant]

@shadow moss Yes I've been using git and keeping all the exercises I do, but I haven't learned how to push/pull to GitHub so they're all on my local end. I really need to set aside a day to learn how to.

@woven prawn Yeah, no doubt. I'm not going in thinking it's going to be a cake-walk. I've already learned that lesson elsewhere. I do however know that one of my strengths is getting work/jobs. I'm pretty good with people.

[swift veldt]

if you're an insider, being open about how your views have been build it important

[woven prawn]

but what if your honesty turned away a future software engineer?

well i guess it's their call

[shut geyser]

it's not your responsability man

you just give your advice

and they make their choice

if anything they make a more informed choice i don't know

[woven prawn]

Like I had to tell so many people they simply don't qualify for a junior dev job after an interview shows them they are not ready for the job. And knowing that they've quit their stable job, spent fortunes on bootcamps, it's kinda hard to watch.

I think it's just my personal experiences that made me a pessimist

[shadow moss]

Learn Python I think is bad in general advice

[white karma]

That isn’t very smart of them to just quit their jobs before they even have another one to get into

[shadow moss]

because people think Python only will take them somewhere and it's likely not going to

[shut geyser]

yeah you should tell people the pros and cons

[white karma]

Like yeah shit sucks but they made that decision

[shut geyser]

it's hard to watch, but they drank their bootcamp koolaid eh :/

[fallen nymph]

hey

[shadow moss]

like if I was going to pick only one language to learn, I'd recommend either Java/C#/JS in US

[white karma]

I’m not daring to quit my current job until I’ve got a steady handle on python/django/sql

[jaunty pendant]

Personally, I'm not in it for the money. I'm a simple man who grew up below the poverty line. Less is more, and as long as I can make enough to live/invest then that's all I need. I make that now, but I'd like to make it doing something I enjoy. Been making little scripts in cmd since I was a kid, figured I'd build that up and turn it into a job.

[woven prawn]

Dude this is not help channel.

[shadow moss]

No, out, we do not do troubleshooting in this channel

[swift veldt]

Just recommend haskell. /jk

[shadow moss]

RAWR

[shut geyser]

lol

if they manage to pull through they might be your guy though

[shadow moss]

I'm just pointing out bitter truth, Python in many places is glue language that holds everything together

they want you to know how to cut the paper as well

[woven prawn]

For my case all the candidates know django extremely well. All had portfolios prepared by bootcamps.

[jaunty pendant]

I agree @shadow moss I don't expect to get a job because of Python. I do however expect to learn concepts and start thinking like a programmer. Which I have.

[swift veldt]

Tbh, whenever you seek to change something career-wise (or really anything), careful planning, taking into account all pros and cons, opportunity costs, etc. is important.
When building knowledge and a set of skilla, you have to think about building vertically (for example understanding workflows of how stuff work and compounds together in a structure--a company, a technology, etc.) and horizontally (for instance similar techs if one doesn't answer a need, etc.).

[woven prawn]

But they lie about their portfolio being hosted on nginx while it's actually just a dev server listening on 0.0.0.0

[shadow moss]

Bonsai, but even then, at many companies, they will want some JS in there

[woven prawn]

so i just don't know what went wrong there

[shadow moss]

because browser > server calls

and all client side with API calls is new hotness anyways

[white karma]

So it’s reasonable to take python as the primary language you learn, plus a bit JS for the front end stuff

[wind hinge]

Is it better to put in cv all skills or to say that i dont know much but I am passionate about learning and growing my knowledge?

[shadow moss]

no

[swift veldt]

It entirely depends on what you want to do, Coldwind.

if you want to do front-end, learning front-end technologies is key.

[jaunty pendant]

No I would never admit to not knowing anything. I would say that Im LEARNING.

[woven prawn]

there are certain words you can use to qualify your experience

[white karma]

Well I can’t just fill my resume with hundreds of $’s

I kid

[woven prawn]

"knowledge of", "working knowledge of", "proficient in"

[shut geyser]

@wind hinge put the skill you already have and put smthg like "Fast Learner"

[woven prawn]

are just some examples

[white karma]

But really since I don’t have any background, my best bet I think is backend web development with django

Then work from there on becoming full stack

[wind hinge]

Fast learning, capable of working in big teams and passionate learner

[shadow moss]

why would you use Django for backend? What is feature in Django that makes it being backend so attractive?

[woven prawn]

the ORM and DRF

[shadow moss]

fake interview with Rabbit

[woven prawn]

really fast development

[shadow moss]

there are API only libraries that are even faster

[shut geyser]

what's DRF in this context?

[wind hinge]

I am studying flask

[woven prawn]

django rest framework, it basically breathed a second life into django

[shut geyser]

ah okay

[woven prawn]

yeah by no means django is big, RoR is way bigger and usable

[shadow moss]

sure but it's still massive application

compare to others

Are there not smaller ORM libraries out there?

Why do you need overhead of Django to build rest? Does Flask not have rest?

[woven prawn]

is the overhead big?

[shadow moss]

do you have Django demo Rest applicaiton I can git clone and run?

[woven prawn]

i don't, i don't put code on github

[shadow moss]

do you have one locally?

[woven prawn]

if i have to tell you a reason, is that django comes with everyhting you need to whip out an application. Biggest thing being routing and ORM.

Also you can selectively disable django components so not everything is loaded on app startup.

[shadow moss]

how big?

memory usage

[woven prawn]

lemme take a look

about 30mb per process

[shadow moss]

fastapi demo under load

[woven prawn]

well that's 27mb

[shadow moss]

sure

it's tiny

in grand scheme

[woven prawn]

i don't understand the obsession with memory usage tho

[shadow moss]

because I assume your Django REST is just a demo right?

[woven prawn]

no it's production

the memory usage really only depends on what kind of things you are reading from DB

if you read a lot, yeah memory usage will go up

[shadow moss]

my demo doesn't have backend DB

I guess I could throw one in

[woven prawn]

still i don't understand why memory usage is important

[shadow moss]

you think cloud computing is free?

I deal with APIs that get hammered 3000 times a second

now, our APIs are built in C#, not python but it matters

[woven prawn]

You are a great engineer and your solution is robust.

[shadow moss]

that massive library you used to make a simple rest API is now chomping away at memory like nuts

I didn't design it

I'm challenging you on the thinking

I'm going to use this massive awesome library designed for making web pages for just rest apis

sell it to me

Is this the only option or it's option you are comfortable with

end interview

[woven prawn]

sigh.

are there any intrinsic differences between webpages and api response payloads?

[shadow moss]

yea, API responses are JSON vs HTML/JS

[white karma]

Can I call shenanigans on the surprise interview?

[shadow moss]

Sure

[woven prawn]

just JSON?

[shadow moss]

XML has been used but much much less common, I'm sure there is API somewhere that spits back HTML or something different but they are pretty rare, JSON is by far the most common for RESTFUL APIs

[woven prawn]

what are JSON made of

[shadow moss]

yes, yes, it's all strings

but this is my field as SRE, it's not Django returns JSON which is like HTML

it's Django is 9MB library according to pip

that's a ton of code to do something that is pretty easy, get post, maybe JSON body, read, do thing, return

so what's hiding under the covers waiting to bite me

SREs worry about maintainability, uptime, performance

[woven prawn]

and?

[shadow moss]

Django makes sense if you bolting on a rest API to existing site

[woven prawn]

you'd rather choose to maintain a flask based solution with multiple packages

than a single django package

[shadow moss]

depends

[woven prawn]

yeah man what you just said sounds like a rant

rather than valid concerns

[shadow moss]

I don't care what you pick

when you pick heavy, in interview, I and my other devs would question choices just to see if you can defend

[woven prawn]

lol

you sound too aggressive right now, bye.

Your whole argument of django is one big (in terms of bytes on disk) framework will negatively affect performance and maintainability is just outlandish.

[gilded valley]

Not really sure how you read any aggression from this conversation

[shadow moss]

my original point that got lost, part of being a dev is making design decisions, it will come up in interviews, "Why did you make this decision? IN hindsight was it best one? Could you have picked something better?"

[woven prawn]

by aggressive i meant he's too stuck in his own ways, and only want to see his ideas accepted by others.

man, just easy of use, fast development, and you can easily hire someone who know django than someone who knows some random framework/library. For DB intensive APIs with complex business logic, Django really has all the things to do the job right.

Also, it's just one package, things are easier to maintain.

[gilded valley]

FastAPI+SQLA is fast and easy to develop with, and much lighter than Django

seems to me you just like django

and are unwilling to look at others

[woven prawn]

yeah i am terrible.

[mint pumice]

I like django. I have spent enough time with it to understand some of the more quirky details of the under the hood stuff. I could look at other things, but learning them takes time, and I can whip out something in django right now. Anyways, not all websites need to have blazing fast ability to handle 3000 concurrent requests.

[woven prawn]

please help me.

[shadow moss]

no they dont

[mint pumice]

Django is also easy to maintain, easy to onboard people onto, easy to make changes if needed. In many situations it's a fine choice

DRF also can be fine, yes, for just a REST API you are including templating and all sorts of other libraries you'll never use, but you get the benefits of a large ecosystem of Django apps and middleware, you get automatic authentication handling, you get all the maintainability and ease of use, you get really well documented framework, it's very stable, etc.

[gilded valley]

Django is also easy to maintain, easy to onboard people onto, easy to make changes if needed.
all of those are true of FastAPI, but you also get speed with it. Like with everything, right tool for the job.

[shadow moss]

career enhancing though, learn concepts, learn different thing, Django is great to know but mess with others

[mint pumice]

I am sure other tools are similar, when I say "maintain" I mean in a team. There is more availability of people who understand and know django, is my point

[shadow moss]

experiment with flask, make Django site but use SQLA as ORM

[gilded valley]

If you want to get jobs in python web dev, to make yourself the most employable, it's a good idea to be familiar with different options and understand their use cases

[mint pumice]

I've used flask too, not yet fastapi, I have a job with django right now, maybe will look at fastapi when I get a break 🙂

[gilded valley]

Being able to talk about django vs flask vs fastapi vs aiohttp vs whatever else is clearly a good thing. And if you're all in on Django, then it's a good idea to know what its weaknesses are as well as its strengths

[mint pumice]

fastapi seems a lot like node/express am I wrong?

yeah, I agree with that sentiment 100%, whatever you're in on, you should know it back and forth

[shadow moss]

FastAPI is Python API library for just building RESTFUL APIs

[mint pumice]

pros and cons

[shadow moss]

it does not do any traditional webpage

like even if we were looking for Django dev, a favorite quesiton of mine "Furhan, what don't you like about Django"

[mint pumice]

yes, I can see that, I'm looking at the docs now, I had used node/express for an API once before at a previous job and the look is similar to me

[gilded valley]

express just sort of does the bare minimum, fastapi has a few more features

[shadow moss]

because anyone who has seriously used a framework has a list of "WTF"

[woven prawn]

I just don't get why you have to so obsessed with

being lean

idk, for the lack of a better word

[shadow moss]

so my focus is Site Reliability Engineering

[woven prawn]

you could say this new framework supports asyncio and allows high throughput

that's perfectly valid

[shadow moss]

Lean means couple of things to me, less possible bugs with framework since there is less going on under the hood, if we have to scale, it doesn't require a massive change, and from security standpoint, less is better

[mint pumice]

yeah, django ORM has a learning curve imo, esp. when you know the SQL query you want to execute and have to translate it to ORM-speak and then find out that none of it works in the intuitive way and there's all sorts of odd things you need to do to get equivalent SQL

[shadow moss]

good response

I can tell you have screwed with Django and thus have tripped over it

[woven prawn]

isn't the whole point of ORM to avoid raw SQL

[shut geyser]

I do print() on orm speak until i get the right SQL :sad_pepe:

[mint pumice]

just one example, from work recently:

Aggregates may be used within a Subquery, but they require a specific combination of filter(), values(), and annotate() to get the subquery grouping correct.
From django docs

[shut geyser]

Yeah but you have to fidget a bit sometimes, if you're not fluent in both

[shadow moss]

sure but sometimes is soooo tempting to do "Select x,y,z from table where y = a" because it's just easier

[woven prawn]

do SREs fix bugs

[mint pumice]

@woven prawn yes it is, but sometimes you need to make a complicated query, and you don't want to do N+1 queries accidentally and ruin the performance of your app

[shadow moss]

sometimes I do

[shut geyser]

They yell at dev until they do

From what i heard

[shadow moss]

most of time I discover them then yell at devs

[shut geyser]

See ?

[shadow moss]

i'm the one looking at performance and going WTF is this so slow

[mint pumice]

@gilded valley genuinely thanks for the tip towards FastAPI it looks cool!

[shadow moss]

testing is showing his API is running like a dog

[gilded valley]

I have yet to actually use it myself - but it does look very cool

[shadow moss]

I install profilers to keep track of everything (HOrray Application Insights)

[woven prawn]

i just don't get why getting multiple things from different vendors help with security

the less code more realiable part sounds good in theory

[mint pumice]

Now I hope I can add authentication, geographic fields, etc. easily to it

[gilded valley]

I imagine the fact FastAPI is 100% unit tested gives some extra faith in it

[woven prawn]

are the tests good tho

do you read all the tests

[gilded valley]

FastAPI have a big section on auth

[woven prawn]

yeah fastapi has everything needed for any reasonable project

[gilded valley]

well - no - it doesn't have HTML rendering

it has everything needed for a relatively specific niche of projects

[shadow moss]

yep, FastAPI is poor choice for building websites

[mint pumice]

fastapi has everything needed to set up a rest API / RPC API

[woven prawn]

ugh.

[shadow moss]

well, it can be great idea for building websites if you are doing whole ANgular/React/Electron that just reads APIs

[woven prawn]

how are web pages typically served?

exactly

who does server side rendering at this day and age

[gilded valley]

who does server side rendering at this day and age
A lot of places. Not everything is an SPA

[shadow moss]

we do both

[woven prawn]

i'm dead

[shadow moss]

there is certain data we don't want to expose the APIs for so it's Server Side rendering

[woven prawn]

i should leave this server to give everyone a satisfactory feeling.

[unkempt cloud]

🤔 are you guys sure #career-advice is the right place for this?

[shadow moss]

sure, it's about how to be better programmer

[woven prawn]

it all started with an interview

[shadow moss]

and interview better, show thinking and like

[woven prawn]

🤔 anyways, you guys happy coding

i'm stuck in the age of django and i'm really ashamed of myself

[mint pumice]

@woven prawn no need to be ashamed

django is a great tool, and as much as other tools exist out there, django has a lot of benefits

[abstract spindle]

How does one become a cloud engineer / architect? I have been doing extensive research, but every position i’m finding wants 7+ years of experience which is crazy. I’m assuming this is one of those jobs u don’t start out entry level and you just work your way up into it, so what jobs would be good to get into?

I already have a lot of experience working with AWS and Google Cloud from working as a web developer for the past 2 years, but I’ve found I enjoy that side a lot more than I do making websites and stuff.

[vapid jay]

Very often your best bet for "fresh out of undergrad" jobs is consulting firms. They hire a lot of entry level.

[abstract spindle]

I’m still in college part time

and I didn’t go to Harvard

[shadow moss]

Finish College and they hire non harvard people

[mint pumice]

@abstract spindle I'd recommend trying to get certifications as an AWS or Google Cloud developer or architect

[abstract spindle]

I hate the emphasis on college, as if I need college to decide whether or not I can use AWS

I should be graduating in a month but since I’m a dumbass I decided to be lazy and now i’m a year and a half behind

[mint pumice]

@abstract spindle none of those certs require college

[abstract spindle]

I know, they are pricy tho, they’re like $200 per attempt and I’m very broke rn because I’ve been unemployed for so long so I need to get a job first

I’m just not sure where to start other than certifications

[white karma]

Have you considered a side job in private security?

[abstract spindle]

Like actual security guards?

[white karma]

Dunno if this counts as recruiting so I’ll leave it at that here

Yes

[abstract spindle]

why would I do that

what does that have to do with cloud engineering lol

[white karma]

It’s a very easy job that requires minimal effort

[abstract spindle]

oh you mean as a temporary job

[white karma]

As in, a side job to help you pay for your certifications

Yes!

[vapid jay]

you guys think making discord bots will help me if I want a job ?

[abstract spindle]

I think I have to be certified in my state

[white karma]

What’s your state?

[abstract spindle]

It may help if the interviewer knows what Discord is

Maine

[white karma]

If they have any requirement similar to a guard card, major companies will pay for it and you pay it off while working

Shoot me a DM if you wanna talk more about it, I don’t wanna clog the channel with non python things

[vapid jay]

I kinda wanna know how it feels to work in a company, I always worked on my own stuff

[abstract spindle]

It’s not as fun as doing it on your own

[vapid jay]

maybe they're so advanced and I can't even comprehend

[abstract spindle]

I’ve always felt that it starts to suck when your hobby becomes your job, so make sure you really love what you’re doing

or find new hobbies to do outside of work

[vapid jay]

I do

[mint pumice]

@abstract spindle It's a worthwhile investment, take a loan from someone, friend or family, etc. Sell something. Because if it lands you an SRE job somewhere managing cloud systems for a company, you'll easily make back the cost of the cert

[vapid jay]

it's very fun for me, instant feedback from people on new stuff i make

but I have a feeling like I'm gonna be inferior to people in an actual company, since they learn from each other and all the newest things and technologies

[mint pumice]

@vapid jay you want to be inferior to the people around you otherwise you won't grow

[abstract spindle]

Yeah, the cost won’t be a problem once I have some employment, I’m just unemployed rn and having a really hard time finding work. I also have been thinking of doing entry level IT work, but I also don’t want to do entry level IT work and waste my time because it doesn’t help me get into cloud engineering / architecture

[vapid jay]

that's true

you guys are having an easy way finding jobs as developers or not ?

[abstract spindle]

@vapid jay very important to not be the best, unless you’re trying to be management being the smartest in the room is not good at all.

makes u think everyone is stupid

No one is having an easy time finding jobs rn unless they’re senior

[vapid jay]

I'm not particularly smart but yeah I know what you mean, that';s high school for me lol

because of the pandemic ?

[abstract spindle]

Yes

[mint pumice]

@vapid jay I have never had problems finding job as a dev, it takes a few months of job searching, and you never want to bite at the first people who offer, but never had problems

[vapid jay]

or like in general

oh ok

[abstract spindle]

Very few companies are hiring and the ones that are now have 20% of the population to get applications from so only the best of the best are getting employed

[vapid jay]

my friend is a game dev and never had issues finding a job, they kinda scout him out offering him deals, but I assumed because he's good

[abstract spindle]

And companies don’t have the financial wiggle room to take on entry level employees so they’re only hiring seniors

[vapid jay]

that makes sense I'd do the same

[abstract spindle]

I’m sure he doesn’t have a hard time, most of us didn’t pre pandemic

[vapid jay]

you want people with experience not waste resources to train

[abstract spindle]

I had no issue finding work before everything went to shit

[vapid jay]

ah I see so it made it tough for programmers too

[white karma]

It’s made it tough for a lot of people

[vapid jay]

my friend works for EA he's now working from home

at least the last time I spoke to him

[white karma]

I have faith that once this is over the programming jobs will bounce back

[abstract spindle]

everyone is having a hard time rn

there are very few industries that are thriving rn

[vapid jay]

they made everyone work from home and they're having a hard time with that

[abstract spindle]

Very few companies are going to be hiring unless they have huge cash reserves or are doing well in this recession

Plus the economy is going do a nice nose dive on May 8

If you have stock u might wanna sell

[vapid jay]

tbh I kinda spent some of my savings on things I needed just in case the inflation gonna go up, because they're just printing money

[jaunty pendant]

For myself, this epidemic is actually perfect timing. I wanted to dedicate myself to studying for the rest of the year, but I couldn't justify missing out on the lost wages from work. Now, the decision has been made for me and I still have a job when it's over... so... win?

[vapid jay]

I have some stock and bitcoin but not anything significant, few hundreds lol

[abstract spindle]

I would be in the same boat if I didn’t burn through my savings

I had like $4k saved but have spent it all in the last 2 months on bills and stuff

[vapid jay]

damn that sucks

[abstract spindle]

yeah that’s what happens when a pandemic hits

[vapid jay]

I think those who have savings will be impacted

in currency at least

there's no way they can print so much money and the inflation not to go up right

[abstract spindle]

I doubt those in countries like the US are going to have inflation problems

but yeah in other countries i can see it getting bad

[jaunty pendant]

I got enough money to make it the rest of the year like normal without working, but I'm still being very frugal with it. Cut back on everything from insurance to food budget. The month is almost over and I've only spent $1000 (food + rent + toiletries). Car only has parkers insurance, luckily riding season is here and I pre-paid a years worth of motorcycle insurance that is still valid until November.

[abstract spindle]

$1000 food + rent
wow must be nice

[jaunty pendant]

Roommates + 0 debt, it's a magical combo

[abstract spindle]

I live with my gf and she doesn’t want to live wirh roommates and i also live in one of the most expensive parts of the country so that doesn’t help

[jaunty pendant]

The 1200 dollars from daddy Donald are going a long way for me. That's s month of good livin!

[white karma]

^

[abstract spindle]

senpai donny

[white karma]

My Trump bucks helped me get a better used car

[abstract spindle]

Trump Bucks™️

[white karma]

I hope they keep coming tbh

[abstract spindle]

I don’t think they’re sending out another check any time soon

Which sucks for me because I don’t qualify for unemployment

[white karma]

To my knowledge they were planning on sending more for another couple months

[abstract spindle]

i hope so i’m living off of stimulus checks and prostitution

[plucky widget]

Hm.

[shadow moss]

I feel for Jr. Devs, we just canceled our interns, so there is year of students who won't get any experience

we don't hire a ton of interns

but sitll

[gilded valley]

A lot of companies are powering through with internships, some have replaced with graduate role offers, but quite a few have also been cancelled

[shadow moss]

yea, it's varied

[white karma]

Shame, hope it picks back up again soon

[abstract spindle]

i don't see it picking up again for about a year after this is over at least

it's going to take years to recover

lucky bastard

signs up for careerbuilder

[jaunty pendant]

^ gets an offer from McDonalds

[abstract spindle]

on indeed.com i get weird chinese english teaching jobs

[jaunty pendant]

Hell yeah I'd go teach English in China! I'll take a bit of Democracy with me, see if I can't spread it around like they did COVID.

[abstract spindle]

Now students, I know you guys think nothing happened on April 15, 1989, but what if I told you something did happen

[white karma]

What is this “democracy” you speak of and how will it get me a career in China?

Asking for a friend

[abstract spindle]

China would like a word with you

[wind hinge]

Ooh nice gj for you :D @vapid jay