yeah idk i don’t have any desire to live there, but i do have desire to visit
#career-advice
abstract spindle
mint citrus
im just using my living in other countries as a means to cheaper international vacations
abstract spindle
That’s a good idea
mint citrus
its working out alright
trip to taiwan was cheap
japan tho was expensive af 😦
3k for 4 days man
abstract spindle
marriage is spooky, i have some fear of commitment in my heart a bit but workin on it she’s the one i’m sure she’s put up with me for 2 years so far
mint citrus
but that had to do with the bad timing
abstract spindle
I am trying to move to Philly
mint citrus
philly seems like an ok place
abstract spindle
Philly area not philly the city
mint citrus
ah ok
abstract spindle
i live in a small city rn and i hate it
i grew up in a small town and i miss it heavily
abstract spindle
i like to work in big cities but i don’t like to live in them
abstract spindle
i like to relax in silence when i go to bed, i don’t like the noise and chaos
mint citrus
it took me an hour to get to work when I was living in Berlin
abstract spindle
but it’s great when i’m awake and there’s things to do
mint citrus
and take me 1.5 hours here in bangkok
abstract spindle
my longest commute ever was 50 minutes
the distance was 50 miles
typically my commute is about 20 minutes
shortest was my last job, i lived half a mile from the office
mint citrus
lucky you
abstract spindle
live not in major cities and u get that luxury 👀
mint citrus
hmm maybe haha
abstract spindle
I’ve always loved visiting big cities
like i said i would be perfectly happy and satisfied working in a big city, even a city as big as new york city
but yeah i’d like to sleep in my 2000 population town where u can’t hear cars or anything
abstract spindle
my current windows are secretly paper because i can literally hear people talking outside my building
mint citrus
heh
abstract spindle
yee
the rent is expensive too here
new england is one of the most expensive parts of the country
mint citrus
oh really
abstract spindle
my apartment is 600 sq ft and we pay about $1425 a month
mint citrus
yeah you have 55sqm
abstract spindle
oof that’s pricy
mint citrus
hey i had to convert yours too
abstract spindle
well it’s 1:30am here i’m off to bed gn my friend 
abstract spindle
oof
mint citrus
last day of what?
craggy wave
is it hard to learn python
@vapid jay
I think Python is a good language to get into programming. Still, whatever language you learn, you'll also have to learn things like general programming skills and develop your problem solving skills. That's all part of programming in general. Python makes it easy to get started, though. I'd still recommend checking out other languages as well later on, but starting with one language is probably a good idea.
do i need to know mathematics to suceed?
People will give you different answers, depending on their own field and sometimes on how elitist they'd want to be. I'd say that some knowledge of maths helps, but you don't have to become a mathematician if you don't want to. It's just that there's some overlap in the ways of thinking between maths and programming, like abstract algorithms.
quiet sky
Well learning python is not really hard but you should know how to get out of problems that you face with using Python(i.e. problem solving).
or any other language
craggy wave
yes
quiet sky
If you learn even any other language you might face more problems than you would face in python.
craggy wave
And if you want to program in a professional setting, learning how to express your ideas clearly in your code is also important.
quiet sky
Python is really not that hard and to get you in practice it is very nice
But just don't get stuck in tutorial purgatory.
lethal cobalt
Hi, everyone
I have been learning Python for a long time, but mostly on my own. I have never worked as a developer anywhere, and so when I respond to vacancies I am often ignored, and I can’t say for sure if my knowledge is enough to be Junior.
Are there any online tests or anything that I can pass and show on my resume?
quiet sky
You can try one of the Python Certification Course.
lethal cobalt
Is there any of them free?
quiet sky
Yes if you search online you can find many of them for free.
But free certificates are not that powerful I think so.
But it can make your resume better for sure.
lethal cobalt
Thanks
quiet sky
Good luck for your future!
carmine vapor
marsh wind
- took a temp IT call center job at Liberty Mutual. I have no idea why I was fired, I just went into work and my badge wasn’t working and they gave heme a box and told me to leave.
@abstract spindle things like this are probably the main reason I don't want ever to work in US. Seeing that job(in) secuiry for you might lead to anxiety I would consider to try perhaps EU for jobs (ofc after corona ends)
vast shoal
I'd be open to working in another country, but the labor laws in the US sound terrible.
shadow moss
dementati, upside, we have highest GDP per capita
Good developers can easily clear 130k USD (though various things will take a bite out of that)
gilded valley
According to this random website, US software devs make about 40k usd more than in the highest paying EU country https://www.daxx.com/blog/development-trends/it-salaries-software-developer-trends-2019
abstract spindle
oof that sounds terrible
vapid jay
What are things freelance programmers are hired to do asides from Webdev and Databases?
viral ridge
130k for any US location is pushing it
abstract spindle
depends on what ur doing
and where u live
ur going to make more money in san francisco than you are in say tennessee
abstract spindle
Yes
Depending on the company and complexity of your job
If you’re doing just basic front end development you won’t make a ton of money but if you’re doing backend or full stack dev or dev ops you can expect well over $100k
marsh wind
According to this random website, US software devs make about 40k usd more than in the highest paying EU country https://www.daxx.com/blog/development-trends/it-salaries-software-developer-trends-2019
Indeed but there are many other things to consider
abstract spindle
You’re more likely to make 100k in LA
abstract spindle
np u got this go make that bread
marsh wind
Health-care, cost of living, students debts etc
Job security
I know some people who enjoy highly competitive env in us
abstract spindle
USA u got a metric ton of debt (unless u were smart about college), expensive healthcare, high cost of living, and no job security so that justifies the big salaries
marsh wind
And some who hate totally and after few year never returned
abstract spindle
it isn’t for everyone
gilded valley
I believe cost of living is lower in the USA - I honestly think the main difference is the culture
yeah, Numbeo is not exactly a great source, but it matches my expectations, so I'll blindly trust it https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jsp cost of living in the US is about on par with with the EU - so the massive salary spike probably would mean you're earning more in real terms.
white karma
Cost of living can be cheap to fuckoff expensive depending on the area
Like where I used to live the cost of living wasn’t even a tenth of a larger city in the same state
gilded valley
Yeah, but thats the case in a lot of the world. It only really works if you compare like for like - so Paris to New York, rather than Zurich to a town in Alabama with 30 people
white karma
Yeah true
marsh wind
Also cost of living on that site don't include rent
white karma
But say like, living in a military town like Yucca Valley compared to even Los Angeles the cost of living is varied hugely and they’re barely 100 miles apart
Granted one is a large city and the other is in the middle of nowhere
marsh wind
Moral of the story is: don't look on salary alone. The reason I brought this up was Bick mentioning job insecurities in US and how much times he had to change during a year
shadow moss
my SRE lead who was a developer makes ~125k yearly in large East Coast US city
my counter was "Sure, our job security sucks, the upside for SOME is salaries in US are much higher on average then EU"
white karma
If I’m being real, the salary is mostly why I want to be a programmer
100k is easily triple what I make
marsh wind
I think there is nothing wrong in that reasoning as long as you don't hate what you do
white karma
I don’t, but my job definitely gets in the way
abstract spindle
I live in new england, i pay $1425 for a 600 sqft apartment. if you go down to boston a 600 sqft apartment can be $2k at least
marsh wind
It's how much in meters? 😂
abstract spindle
but if u go to say san francisco u can get a bedroom for $1500 a month
about 55 sqm
marsh wind
In Paris suburbs for 42sqm we pay 800€
abstract spindle
must be nice
marsh wind
Yeah it's fine. But it's true also that starting salary of 60-80k€ don't exist here
glad badger
Hey guys! I'm a complete beginner to the field of ai!
I'm looking to learn ai but don't know where to start and how to master it to get a good job. So can anyone please give me a roadmap or a leaning path to learn ai. btw what are the skills required to get a job on ai? Thank you so much for your time!
marsh wind
field of AI is very broad and diverse
swift veldt
In Paris, most starting salaries for young graduates will be between eur35 and eur45, depending mostly on what school you graduated from--a lot of companies still use school tables.
marsh wind
yeah, that is about my milleage
swift veldt
And I'm speaking at the master level in industries like tech or finance/banking
my starting salary in Paris in 2016 was 41k + a variable bonus of 2-4k.
In financial consulting.
marsh wind
well idk about master, I only know PhDs, but it seems similar
swift veldt
PhD tends not to add value to an applicant for starting salaries--except for very niche industries.
swift veldt
yes
marsh wind
and those niche industries are quite niche, like not much opening and potentially rought competition
swift veldt
but tbh, in Paris it felt less about your diploma and more about your school.
like top 5 Grande Ecole stuff.
marsh wind
I think if I haven't had my PhD from Polytechnique I would still be unemployed lol
marsh wind
even though when we speak from research viewpoint I don't think Polytechnique is really Top.
shut geyser
Same for Dauphine for Data Analyst once
marsh wind
cause in fact it only means that Polytechnique hosts labs, not much beyond that 😉
shut geyser
They're not selling being a research center isnt it ?
Or at least that's what i came up to believe
marsh wind
X? no, they have their Engineers so sell
shut geyser
Going back to Uni later in life @swift veldt ? To study ?
marsh wind
but masters/phds just get the part of that fame cause often companies/HRs who ain't versed in details just see Polytechnique and get excited
shut geyser
BNPP : Hurrr X go engineer huhu
That's nice! I'd love to go back once but erh, was hard to escape academia, so i must try normal life a bit first ;p
What uni ?
marsh wind
some big companies like Safran or Saint Goban only want engineers from grand ecoles cause they do know the difference lol
I went to few job fairs at polytech while being PhD. You should see their light up faces turn indifferent when I say "PhD"
shut geyser
Rofl
fringe robin
Hey somebody from Czech Republic I'm looking for internship or others do you know about anything I can do from home 🙏
swift veldt
I was basically bored in finance (mostly consulting/management positions in Paris and New York), Ember. So I applied to the MSc in DS/AI at Université Nice Côte d'Azur.
marsh wind
I think @vapid jay is from Czech Republic, perhaps he can suggest you places where you can look for interships @fringe robin
I was basically bored in finance (mostly consulting/management positions in Paris and New York), Ember. So I applied to the MSc in DS/AI at Université Nice Côte d'Azur.
@swift veldt how long have you been in industry now?
swift veldt
discounting the tons of internships I've had. 4 years.
fringe robin
@vapid jay just finished 1st year at University I prefer Czech language but I don't mind English 🤷
FEKT TLI but next year IBE(informační bezpečnost) @vapid jay
swift veldt
BNPP : Hurrr X go engineer huhu
SG and BNPP have a reputation to poach X and Mines people to put them in teams where they're well paid but the work isn't rewarding, because historically "it's better to pay an X to do nothing than to let them go to the competition."
marsh wind
4 years? not bad 🙂 I guess with DS/AI Master on top of your epxerinece you will be higly valuable on that market
swift veldt
It's okay. I just wanted to reorient career-wise, challenge myself, and learn something that is very interesting.
I'm bored of doing powerpoint and reporting basically.
such a fall from doing my MSc thesis in econometrics at EDHEC
ahah
if you're interested in looking at the content, @marsh wind http://univ-cotedazur.fr/en/idex/formations-idex/data-science/
Their website is broken at the moment because they're trying to upgrade it (and their student web dev seems a bit unavailable due to the confinement) and, well, public uni website in France aren't shiny xD
woven prawn
How's everyone's job hunting?
Nearly all companies got slapped with hiring freezes in Japan and i'm getting restless
shut geyser
@swift veldt Yeah i heard this as well :p
and yeah, France Uni have its up and down :/
professors had to pay or bring stuff from their own labs so we could have practice :c
marsh wind
@swift veldt thanks 🙂 well it works (the website) for now. Program looks fine, but idk much about DS/ML/AI typical courses, nor do I plan to take one in Uni 😉
I think the real question is whether their profs are good and wheter you get a good internships 🙂
swift veldt
I'm going in a bit blind tbh. I've only done ML on the side for fun so far and I wanted a challenge. They seem to have liked my 3-page project proposal.
yep. I will see.
I can pay the tuitions and not have to work for a year and a half while there thanks to saving over the past 4 years.
getting in debt-free and out debt-free is great.
swift veldt
privilege I didn't have when I did my Grande Ecole de Commerce 8 years ago.
6-8k total since it's 1.5 years
opal mango
is python used for developing not only prototype in companies today? is it worth become a self-taught python developer to get a first job?
marsh wind
general answer is yes and yes
swift veldt
From my experience in banks. Python is wildly used as it's perceived as a VBA++. You will find it nealy everywhere except in the front office where time sensitive work would use C# or C++.
I have no idea.
shut geyser
I dont think so from job listing i seen
opal mango
How much knowledge do i need to become worth hiring for a company? To start applying to job!
marsh wind
I doubt, I saw bunch of Java or C, but not much C#
swift veldt
My experience is mostly limited to banking/finance. I think you'd see Java pop up in other industries, maybe automobile, etc. The only instance of Java I've seen so far is actually Scala for database management at SNCF/SocGen
opal mango
when do you become worthy?
marsh wind
I do admit tho I did not look much for SWE, mostly Data scinece where python is all over the place
A friend of mine is working for SNCF and she does Java
lavish geyser
C# is quickly becoming more popular
marsh wind
for some modeling
lavish geyser
its clearly superior to java in every way now
swift veldt
I've seen C# being used for automating processes at the RISQ division of SG.
marsh wind
and she was at consulting before that is higly specialized in Java
swift veldt
like COBOL 
lavish geyser
yee
case in point
but now that C# is 100% cross platform like java expect to see alot more c#
marsh wind
lol that US COBOL story....
I guess C# will emerge for new companies or projects
but tons of things will remain in Java
swift veldt
BNPP and SG have a lot of legacy COBOL but most of their job openings using the language are offshored to Bangalore/SEA.
managing legacy isn't a shiny thing budget/project-wise and so it's seen by management as something to be offloaded rather than worried about.
😷
marsh wind
heh didn't know that, but not surpised since SG/BNPP are big and old
marsh wind
haha my account is there
swift veldt
me too
marsh wind
I never tho applied for banks
swift veldt
I'll likely move to Crédit Agricole this summer when I am back in France.
marsh wind
first I doubted that I would pass screening easily second don't want to do finance
I applied for 2 Quant jobs and ditched that
😂
swift veldt
you don't want to do finance
it's far, far away from the shiny image it once had.
most money at the moment is spent on "rationalizing" teams and processes and handling the ever increasing regulatory burden.
Basel 3 is still being a mess and Basel 4 is coming up
GDPR is being a bitch
BCBS239 is still wrecking havoc
etc.
marsh wind
I'll likely move to Crédit Agricole this summer when I am back in France.
you are at SG but not in France now??
swift veldt
New York City
marsh wind
ok I have no clue what all those mean except GDPR 😂
like I said I quickly ditched idea of trying finance/banking
swift veldt
They are different regulatory texts that impacts how banks proceed.
marsh wind
I applied to Cubist and Capital Fund Management that was all lol
swift veldt
basically, adding procedures on top of procédures till you're screaming for the laissez-passer A38 like poor Astérix.
shut geyser
This was my last day in a Pharma company and it was pretty much the A38
marsh wind
oh that Asterix short.... 😅
marsh wind
there is a guy from my lab is ln Belgium now
swift veldt
but it didn't prepare me for the workload of stuff to do to get my US visa for the VIE I'm doing right now.
shut geyser
A38 to protect your process, but then somehow the process was supposed to protect A38
marsh wind
he said he though Ftrance in paper nightmare
swift veldt
but at least! My time at SocGen in NYC is over. I'm being repatriated next week.
which I learned 2 days ago.
marsh wind
wow
swift veldt
😳
shut geyser
Fast
swift veldt
yep
since all my suits and ties are stuck at the dry cleaner in Manhattan due to the lockdown, I think I can write them off.
Also likely loosing my rent deposit and having to pay 2 months of rent
shut geyser
That sucks
swift veldt
it so does
shut geyser
In belgium here i have to pay a month of rent top if i leave + some extra cost
In france it was
"Yo i leave in 3 month"
"K"
swift veldt
yep
shut geyser
Hope NL will be saner
swift veldt
but that's tied to the fact that if you have a CDI, the CDI can keep you working for 3 more months
shut geyser
Yeah true Lossberg
swift veldt
which is standard, and is mind boggling for Americans.
shut geyser
Notice period is 3 month
swift veldt
If your contract is a CDI, there is a clause where, if you resign, the company can still ask you to work there for 3 more months.
basically the notice period, yeah, as Ember said.
in the US it's usually 2 weeks iirc.
swift veldt
Well, a company doesn't resign you. It fires you.
marsh wind
yeah yeah
swift veldt
"you got donaldtrumped, sir."
marsh wind
but that's tied to the fact that if you have a CDI, the CDI can keep you working for 3 more months
just here was not clear for me whether you mean you resign or company fires
swift veldt
In the US, if you get fired, you're out of the door in 5 minutes.
marsh wind
now I am on CDI as Data scientist in startup
marsh wind
PhD I finished Dec 2018
swift veldt
noice. What was the topic?
marsh wind
and In may 2019 I ended my post doc and academic career. Started to look for jobs, and actually started to work 3 weeks ago 🙂
marsh wind
we just don't go out except once per week to the closest shop
noice. What was the topic?
like copypaste or more human readable interpretation? 😅
swift veldt
Mhm. Something related to UI experience/neuroscience?
marsh wind
not at all, Theoretica/computationall physics
swift veldt
neat
marsh wind
basically large (or not so large) scale quantum mechanics calculations for certian gold surfaces to study their properties and how they interact with incoming electrons.
swift veldt
sounds really cool, though at the moment, far too complex for me who stopped learning physics in 2nd. Though I am interested in quantum computing and has been relearning math for that
mostly based on the following: https://quantum.country/
abstract spindle
Sooooooo I just got an interview scheduled for a Systems Engineer and oh my god I'm gonna bomb it
marsh wind
well quantum computing has actually nothing to do with what I did hehe
sounds really cool
It is but turns out all I did isn't really helping in job searh 😂
swift veldt
I am a noob, I know ahah
marsh wind
Sooooooo I just got an interview scheduled for a Systems Engineer and oh my god I'm gonna bomb it
@abstract spindle don't approach it with such mindset
swift veldt
well, there is the job search/grind and "épanouissement intellectuel"
abstract spindle
idk if i know enough to get the job 😢
swift veldt
going back to school I am looking for the latter
If you don't know enough, show you're willing to learn and can learn
emphasize past experiences where you had to teach yourself a new skill quickly
for instance
abstract spindle
What does a systems engineer at a cloud company do compared to a devops engineer
marsh wind
épanouissement intellectuel
didn't hear that term:)
swift veldt
lol
abstract spindle
oof idk if i can do this i feel like im not qualified
swift veldt
Sorry, Bick. But I can't help you on this question.
nobody really feels qualified really.
abstract spindle
The must haves:
Professional experience in a DevOps, Development, or SysAdmin role, preferably working with large scale distributed systems.
I've worked as a front end web developer, dabbled in some linux sys admin stuff, have a lot of experience in aws and google cloud
Experience running mission-critical Linux servers in virtualized environments
yep done that
Experience with designing software and infrastructure at scale
idk if they are talking about actually flat out making software, i've never programmed a large infrastructure or something but for sure i've built sites on large infrastructures and have helped plan them out
Experience with hardware and systems automation
i've done automation on a website level, like automating ecommerce or something, not complex linux environments
no minimums on experience in this job posting
just says u gotta have an idea what ur doing
sick mist
@abstract spindle truth is, many people don't overthink when applying, and don't even care if they check the boxes. I've interviewed dozens of candidates for Sr. Python devs who had no practical experience in Python for instance, but managed to get through HR filters because they gave the impression they knew enough 🙂
I wouldn't mind if someone applied saying "allright, I don't know X right now, but as my previous experiences taught me, I'm sure I can grasp it quickly, I'll do what needs to be done to get there"
abstract spindle
So if they ask if I don’t know something express that I can and want to learn
sick mist
Also, remember that job openings are usually describing the perfect candidate in the broadest sense, meaning they look for someone who could tick all boxes, but if not, they are also vague enough so you can still be a match with a lower accuracy
abstract spindle
Every other job they have lists specific experience requirements but this job doesn’t, so it sounds like they aren’t looking for super experienced people
sick mist
well, let's say you don't know X, but you know Y which is close enough (at least to you) you can point out that you can transfer some of the knowledge, learn a bit, and be efficient quickly
for instance, let's say you know Debian and Ubuntu, but they use CentOS, you of course are not a CentOS guru off the bat (and shouldn't pretend you are) but you can say "well, I have strong understanding of linux, and this is another distribution, I'm not yet familiar with it, but sure I can learn how to work with it, even faster if you have someone I can talk to, to show me how you use it"
abstract spindle
i’m more nervous because i don’t wanna make an ass out of myself
sick mist
as a recruiter, what I hear is "that person is open to admit he doesn't know, they're not trying to be sneaky, they know the basics so I won't have to teach them, and they're even already projecting themselves here and offering solutions"
sick mist
well, this is unlikely, except if the recruiters are real trash, if it does not work out, they'll just politely thank you and just don't call back
vapid jay
Where do I ask for phython help?
sick mist
there's absolutely no reason to be worried about looking foolish, the worst you risk is not receiving a phone call, they sure won't call all their friends to tell them about this guy who applied but checked only 60% of the boxes
(though if you're really delusional and turn the interview into a real sh** show, they might laugh at you, but anyway, you'll never know)
(interviewed a guy once who was a complete clown, answered all my questions with absurd answers, it made me laugh for weeks)
opal perch
Yo, @sick mist to be honest you sound like a recruiter that's actually nice and will take into consideration if someone doesn't know something. In your opinion, do you think every recruiter is like you? to me it seems like more will just find someone else that knows the stuff off the bat
sick mist
well, I'd say it depends a lot, if your interviewer is from a non-technical background, it might be harder to explain, because they usually play skills bingo, as they don't know what means what
e.g. that's the sort of people who'll ask you if you know a very specific version of something, as if it mattered
"do you know python 3.8.2?
- I know python3 yes
- but ... does this include the 3.8.2 version?"
but I have the feeling these days we no longer let these types alone with candidates, and you'll often have 2 interviewers, one "HR" to evaluate the soft skills, and one technical to evaluate the tech skills
again, you might end up with a funny tech interviewer who's also not competent and play bing, but that's less likely
to my experience, luck is always involved, you can't control the skill of your interviewers, nor their reaction, so just do your best 🙂
shadow moss
recruiters are generally nice
but they are filters most of time
external recruiters can be awful because you are just paycheck to them
sick mist
ah, yes, cheap headhunters are a plague
but you'll notice they play bingo a lot as well
it's an easy way to spot them 😓
shadow moss
yep
and yea, most people don't laugh at those who fail the interview, it's just like "NOPE" and they are forgotten abount
abstract spindle
I'm going to take headshots this weekend
my current headshots were taken 2 years ago and i look like a 12 year old
sick mist
good idea 😅
vapid jay
i want to make a career out of coding. I just started learning this week, and i need some guidence on how to go about learning how to, and which area to learn first. Help anybody 🙂
abstract spindle
I never was able to learn from Codecademy or anything, I always learned from actually making websites
But if you're a complete 100% beginner and couldn't print hello world, then codecademy won't hurt to get the basics down
uncut canopy
I started on code academy free version. Then books. Then automated repetitive things I had to do at work until I was making solutions to problems that had not occurred yet. " how come you are not spending all validating the Sonus systems, Blackberry?" " Because I made a tool to do that for me when everyone was complaining last month."
vapid jay
I am not sure, I would like to get into the coding that is in the highest demand in the job market today. I really enjoy hacking code, i never knew it would be so satisfying haha.
I already find myself drawn back to my computer to try and learn something new. Im so thankful its rained the last few days. Ive had a couple days off from landscaping, and ive discovered a new direction i want to move in, now i just got to narrow down my focus and get the specialized knowledge i need to be valuable in the job market today.
neon moat
look at my post in the pinned posts, maybe that will help give a bit of direction
vapid jay
Thank you
uncut canopy
@neon moat That is a dope post.
shadow moss
Bick Headshots for what?
marsh wind
@steep beacon actaully recruiting is not permitted here
it's in the tha channels topic
steep beacon
Sorry, posted in wron channel
abstract spindle
@shadow moss For LinkedIn, GitHub, all the sites where my face is
open patio
yes, recruiting is not allowed here @undone moat. however, if your project is open source and you're trying to gain some contributors, #680716760134975491 is the right place to ask.
jaunty pendant
@neon moat
Funny, hadn't seen your post, but it looks like I'm going down a similar path. Started with the same book, also only did the visualization chapters of part 2, and now I'm doing automate (about halfway through part 2). First half of automate is definitely nowhere near as good as the first half of crash course, I just skimmed through it and picked up a thing or two. The code in it is definitely a "just works" approach, not a consistent and pythonic approach like in crash course. Not sure where Im going to take this yet, but after getting through automate I think Im going to try my hand at some data science. Hopefully I'll be looking for jobs by January!
vapid jay
I started on code academy free version. Then books. Then automated repetitive things I had to do at work until I was making solutions to problems that had not occurred yet. " how come you are not spending all validating the Sonus systems, Blackberry?" " Because I made a tool to do that for me when everyone was complaining last month."
@uncut canopy
could you have pretended that you were working on it to collect the paycheck
uncut canopy
@vapid jay I am not sure i understand your meaning.
vapid jay
like ride easy during the time you were expected to be doing that work
when everyone is complaining
uncut canopy
Ew no.
vapid jay
pretend to chug away
oh aha
I mean you wouldn't have to be unproductive
you could be doing other stuff while pretending to work on it
uncut canopy
I picked something else to work on and that ended up being a good thing.
vapid jay
oh ok for sure
opal verge
search a people for gonna help with no profit project, just 4 fun just 4 save the time for quaranteen
marsh wind
#680716760134975491 @opal verge
opal verge
thx
vapid jay
if i get rejected in cs program, i would probably have to go to mechanical engineering. should i? if i only want to code?
white karma
If you only want to code you’re better off self teaching imo
vapid jay
Well if one has the domain knowledge, many mechanical engineering fields enable you to make a living off of coding robots and simulating stuff.
abstract spindle
you don’t need to go to college to get good at programming
there are kids who haven’t even hit high school that can take down government websites
white karma
Whether that’s a good thing or a bad thing is up to personal interpretation
zenith inlet
@vapid jay it depends. is getting an ME degree a decent way to make a living where you live, and is it something you'll want to do?
imo its inevitable that you'll have to do some programming as any sort of engineer
marsh wind
to people forced to work from home, especially if you don't live alone: how do you manage your time? do you feel that your "normal" (9-6) work schedule is messed up? Do you tend to work till late or on weekend? (becase of distractions at home, because you prefer to sleep to 10 am, or just becasue all days/times are the same due to lockdown)
shut geyser
i try to wake up early to not have a full day of working tbh, my job was at some big megacorp, so i was okay with just doing my 8h of work and leaving at 5:00pm and not one minute more
i do feel i was working more despite distraction
but yeah i was trying as much as possible to keep a time "off work at home" to not feel like my day is the same from 8 to 23
now i'm jobless for a week 😄
oak flax
I'm finding that I tend to work until later in the day.
Without an external reference I get caught up in the work.
radiant moon
I do the normal schedule.
At first I started work a little earlier and kept on a little later, but after a week or so I stopped doing that
lucid sapphire
Hey guys, just a off the top question
How important do you think big data is a skill to learn esp for someone just entering the job market in the financial service sector?
zenith inlet
learn basic stats and math first
radiant moon
@lucid sapphire I don't know anything about finance, but I'd guess it's "useful but not necessary"
shadow moss
Big data in financial services sector is handled by big data employee
Software people just write code
marsh wind
but we don't know what kind of job they look for in financial sector
there are also Quants
who needs stats and math a lot.
shadow moss
Sure
I assume someone on here is more software focused
But sure, if you are big data scientists then yes, learning big data is good
marsh wind
🤷♂️ not evident there are quite some data people here since moslty python is used there
shadow moss
Depending on the company, there can be large walls between the roles
Generic questions get generic responses
But I work in Finance services industry at megacorp
Few of software people are doing big data query design work. Most of time we get told to query this set of data with these queries or handed a database with all queries done and results.
Here is database with Lossberg, his income, debt level, credit score, and other data. When someone asks about lossberg, just reply with this data
radiant moon
I guess @lucid sapphire is into the whole big-data thing
marsh wind
Here is database with Lossberg, his income, debt level, credit score, and other data. When someone asks about lossberg, just reply with this data
yeah I got what you mean 🙂
shadow moss
If they are great, most finical service firms are not fans of self taught either, big data analysis can be millions of dollars on the line. They want to see Masters and Doctors in analysis related field. My division creates models that boils down US population into about 25 different groups of people by combo of age, income, asset, family type which you can get at zip + 4 level. People who make those models are all Masters and PhD with ton of experience. They just brought on a new rookie, she has Masters from Harvey Mudd.
marsh wind
I did notice they often want PhD or master with years of experience there. I think there is quite some $ on stake so they don't want to take any risks
shadow moss
Yea, their database server is no joke either. I just assisted in it’s upgrade. 2TB of RAM with 64 Cores and this beautiful Nvm.E backed storage array. We use MSSQL. Primary database is about 8TB big and they frequently spin off 2-3 TB analysis DB for various things.
slow iris
Anyone actually know why they do the fizzbuzz test?
Is it just a meme for inept coders?
radiant moon
pretty sure a decent programmer could do it with just about anything
shadow moss
Our test was Roman Number Converter
shadow moss
You don’t have to write code
Just pseudo code
And if they ask, it only has to support X V I
Though in theory it shouldn’t be too terribly difficult to add additional support
slow iris
i know i was just wondering about the fizzbuzz test because of how over-saturated the market is knowadays
radiant moon
over-saturated? We spend months if not years looking for decent people
or is that what you meant
woven prawn
Python? Yeah.
slow iris
Just programming in general
woven prawn
IDK, in east asia, Python has been promoted as this anyone-can-do-it language. I've interviewed like 10 django developers, all came from 3-month python bootcamps.
slow iris
Did they have any prior experience with a language?
marsh wind
porbably no 🙂
slow iris
True
woven prawn
no, they were accountants, HRs, and general office workers.
slow iris
Just..why
marsh wind
for what I saw these kind of bootcamps are promoted like "come from 0 to hero, in 3 months you get a job 100000%"
woven prawn
software engineers get a much higher pay
marsh wind
just pay as 10k$
slow iris
Doesn't even know hello world
woven prawn
that's a bit harsh, some of the people i know from bootcamps are really good at their job
slow iris
From my experience they are completely oblivious to how the language works
marsh wind
that's a bit harsh, some of the people i know from bootcamps are really good at their job
@woven prawn well good bootcamps exist... but I think they are few and far between
woven prawn
Yeah i'm a little torn on the opinion that a CS education is needed for a successful career in software engineering
but if i'm hiring i'd hire people with a CS background first
shadow moss
Bonsai, where in East Asia?
lavish geyser
CS doesnt teach you software, but it does teach you the theory behind languages
which is arguably more valuable
slow iris
in some situations learning CS is better like with pen testing and stuff
woven prawn
or CS 360/CS 460 Software Engineering I & II ?
lavish geyser
i mean language design is a core part of CS lol
woven prawn
in school people do learn about real life stuff and get their hands dirty on engineering projects
woven prawn
Well. (bows and exits the room
supple fossil
how do I make my resume stand out as a self taught programmer?
I've basically built programs for the last two jobs I had
as well as my own personal projects
but I've never had a title as a developer
so I'm afraid that when they will look at my resume, they'll see the job titles and just ignore me
woven prawn
what was your title?
woven prawn
and the programs you've built are?
like cna you give a general description of what they do
supple fossil
yeah
I've built everything from scrapers
OCR tools
COBOL script generators
I built a non relational database, that would automatically update with API data, and get pushed to a shared google drive
woven prawn
you implemented an entire OCR tool?
supple fossil
well I made API calls to Pytesseract/tesseract
that would converted JPG data into an excel file
woven prawn
OCR as in optical character recognition
supple fossil
yes
woven prawn
yeah sounds like office productivity kind of thing.
i guess you can put an emphasis on the projects, like from requirements to analysis to design.
and list the tools and technologies you've used.
woven prawn
the biggest shortcoming is that they are not "substantial"
by say, developer standards
supple fossil
well the cobol generator is being implemented nationally
in a multibillion dollar company
woven prawn
yes the impact is positive and strong, but i'm talking about workload/complexity
if you can demonstrate the scope of the project and the complexity
it would be great to go on the resume
supple fossil
sounds like I'm a long shot even with these accomplishments
the script generator is not super complicated
the ocr project was more complex
but my current company doesn't understand technology, so they asked my help with the cobol generator
woven prawn
the ocr project, is it a one-filer?
supple fossil
one filer?
woven prawn
one-file program
supple fossil
can you be more specific
woven prawn
like, OCR.py
supple fossil
mmm
woven prawn
and all the code is in ti
supple fossil
well the actual image conversion portion yes
I had built some code to programatically download certain emails that contained attachments to OCR
that part is separate
and the end goal was to take that excel file, which would contain: Purchase Order number, carrier/shipper name, and tracking number
and then make API calls to different carriers (FedEx, UPS, and Old Dominion)
woven prawn
yeah this project sounds great
supple fossil
to get the status; for those shown as delivered, I was going to send programmatic emails reminding stores to receive delivered products
but I only got to: OCR->Download emails
I showed my company the script
and they said, that's cool
fuck that, work on this COBOL generator
woven prawn
lol
supple fossil
im going to integrate the COBOL generator though with my scraper
I scraped competition data, and the cobol generator automates cost changes
woven prawn
yeah definitely highlight the OCR project, and if you are worried about not enough experience, follow some tutorials and get your code on github
supple fossil
I was going to dump the scrape data into a SQL database
and use that info to basically automate cost changes (with the COBOL generator)
like I can work as a Jr dev or something
I think I'm qualified for entry level work
but idk how to showcase that on a resume, because I don't have the work experience. Everything I've done has been in my spare time
and I've been at it for almost 2 years now
woven prawn
what's HTTP code 204
supple fossil
I'd have to google 204, but HTTP errors are connections error/issues getting in contact with the webpage
woven prawn
yeah that's not enough
if you've been trying and have been failing, you should really consider picking up a backend web framework like django/flask and do a couple of tutorial projects.
then brand yourself as a python web dev.
will improve your chance by like 50x.
supple fossil
I haven't tried in a year
yeah
web framework is definitely a gap in my resume
I wanted to gravitate towards data science though
woven prawn
then pick up numpy/pandas/scipy all that
supple fossil
that was the plan
woven prawn
yeah
supple fossil
but then how do you place those projects on your resume
it's not work experience?
should I just put a separate section for personal projects
and probably, remove all non programming related projects?
woven prawn
put them in a section titled perosnal projects
woven prawn
hey good luck on your job hunt.
woven prawn
3.5 years
marsh wind
I wanted to gravitate towards data science though
@supple fossil for this you might also need at least basic understanding of stats, linear algebra, calculus. Especially stats.
also, they often would require a MSc or higher degree. Otherwise you probably have to go through data analyst/engineer roles
supple fossil
I have a background in social sciences, and I've taken masters level stats
I'm a psych/econ guy
Data analyst sounds good
marsh wind
ok that's good.
vapid jay
i'm just looking for someone too teach me how to script .l.
inner wrenBOT
ancient rune
Hi, I am gearing up for a job search
is there a place where I can see example resumes?
and is there a point to the objective/profile part of a resume where you provide some info about yourself?
vapid jay
I'm taking a math class this semester and I'm doing abysmally. It's only precalc, and my Uni requires I take atleast calc 1 and another math I can't remember for my degree, but I am absolutely struggling to make it through this and to just understand the content. It just is completely and totally unintuitive to me.
With that said, I've already taught myself how to code. I've made mobile apps, websites, simple games, etc. I can say with confidence that I perform on the same level as a new Jr. Dev at most companies, if not better. I know that it's possible to get a dev job without a degree, but my current employer is paying for school so I want to get a degree in something, but I don't think I can continue with Comp Sci. So if I can't continue with CS, what would be a good alternate degree that's less math heavy but that could still be supplemented by my programming knowledge? I've spent a lot of time teaching myself to code, and I don't want all those hundreds of hours to go to waste.
I know this isn't directly related to a a #career-advice per say, but obviously my major will have some impact on my future career, direct or indirect.
marsh wind
and is there a point to the objective/profile part of a resume where you provide some info about yourself?
@ancient rune So.... there is no unique answer to this question
it depends on the local (country/city/industry) culture in that regard. It also depends on you: i.e. do you feel it can add any value to your CV and do you actually have space for it without making it less readable and/or visually attractive. Finally it might depend on actual job posting and company, i.e. if job listing required you you write the cover/motivation letter explicitly then that kind of CV section is likely to be obsolete.
@vapid jay I can see your point, if yourgoal is mobile apps, website and things with UI front/back end you might not need much math there.
what kind of alternative degrees your Uni offers?
I think that is were you gotta start
vapid jay
@marsh wind I mean.. most standard degrees you can think of. Finance, Accounting, Business, Marketing, etc
marsh wind
lol I see. It's just that I usually think in terms of STEM
and they are usually math heavy
vapid jay
Yeah no STEM degrees would be easier in the math department lol, which is why I want to change
marsh wind
except Biology maybe lo
vapid jay
Yeah
marsh wind
and I have little clue on what going on beyond STEM (one of the reasoning is that where I studied they mostly sucked for various reasons)
hence I asked. Isn't finance include math there?
for sure they'd have stats at the very least
vapid jay
It does but not the kind of math that you would need for engineering
I don't mind stats really
It's just trig, calc, etc
vapid jay
This appears to be a comprehensive lists of the degree programs I could currently switch to at my school
It appears that both of the Cyber Security majors don't require any more advanced math. it says they require Algebra 3, but that the precalc course I'm taking now can be taken instead. So if I passed this course it would be the final math course for those two.
I think. I'd have to check with an academic advisor first.
But that's how I'm interpreting it
Though, I don't know if Cyber Security is a real major or if it's kind of just there. I feel like job opportunity would be limited.
marsh wind
and what is in information system managament?
well Cyber Security in general is a real thing
vapid jay
I mean I know it is in general, but I don't know if the major itself is like all that legit.
Seems like they'd just hire a developer
I think ISM is more IT related than software
From what I can tell
vapid jay
does anyone know the probability of getting an interview from google foobar after putting your details in?
vapid jay
I'm taking a math class this semester and I'm doing abysmally. It's only precalc, and my Uni requires I take atleast calc 1 and another math I can't remember for my degree, but I am absolutely struggling to make it through this and to just understand the content. It just is completely and totally unintuitive to me.
With that said, I've already taught myself how to code. I've made mobile apps, websites, simple games, etc. I can say with confidence that I perform on the same level as a new Jr. Dev at most companies, if not better. I know that it's possible to get a dev job without a degree, but my current employer is paying for school so I want to get a degree in something, but I don't think I can continue with Comp Sci. So if I can't continue with CS, what would be a good alternate degree that's less math heavy but that could still be supplemented by my programming knowledge? I've spent a lot of time teaching myself to code, and I don't want all those hundreds of hours to go to waste.
@vapid jay why can't you finish your compsci degree
vast shoal
@vapid jay Stats involves a lot of calc.
Also, calc is hard for everyone when you go to uni. But I'm fairly sure it's almost always because you haven't learned to study efficiently, not because you're fundamentally incapable of learning math.
You need to study in a more systematic way when you go to uni than what you might be used to from earlier schooling.
Even if you were to get past calc, you would probably run into similar issues in later non-math classes if you don't learn how to study.
I failed calc when I first started at uni. My school system allowed me to retake it later on, and when I did, I went about it in a completely different way.
Which was basically going over every single sentence in my math textbook word by word, and not moving forward to the next sentence until I was 100% sure I understood what it meant. Then I did every single exercise problem without looking at the answer and not moving to the next one until I managed to do it correctly. It took a lot of time and effort, but it worked really well. I didn't need to apply this type of rigor to every class, but it was necessary to get past the hard mathy ones.
Everything in math builds upon what you've learned previously, so if you follow this approach systematically, you will never get overwhelmed.
If your book assumes that you know something that you've failed to learn in the past, you can always find more basic resources online to recap with.
Khan Academy and Brilliant etc., are useful, but you can probably often just google stuff.
With calc in particular, it can often be very helpful to play around with tools like WolframAlpha, Octave or Matlab and test graphing functions and expressions, to get an intuition for how the concepts work in practice.
wild wigeon
I can definitely agree with the bit about making sure that you actually understand everything before you move on - if you're just remembering a mathematical fact because somebody has taught it to you, you're going to have a hard time knowing how to apply that in new situations (particularly in obscure cases). However, if you make the steps to understand it, you'll remember it much better, and you'll draw connections between everything else that you already know, further reinforcing your understanding of that
near schooner
Though, I don't know if Cyber Security is a real major or if it's kind of just there. I feel like job opportunity would be limited.
@vapid jay
I have a cyber degree and I'd say there's just as much job opportunity and money to be made. I started in security and went into programming since both are heavily intertwined. The applications are limitless.
That being said, I would've rather done CS and learned security at my job since most degrees are brand new and are pretty terrible. But even then I'd go with security if you're not going to do CS. Its relatively easy and you'll learn a lot about topics you should know.
white karma
@near schooner you mean like private security or security systems?
near schooner
Cyber security
I was a malware reverse engineer and a soc analyst before becoming a developer
@white karma
white karma
Ah ok
shadow moss
English degree for Cybersecurity is good as well 😉
or whatever language in your country
and if you are taking on college debt, broader degrees are better, CS can pivot towards cybersecurity but Cybersecurity is more focused so if you pivot towards software, you might run into issues
near schooner
^^ yep, but it's not as bad. I'm missing out on a lot of core CS stuff, but I have a job developing, I'm just lagging behind in a lot of topics. You'll have to pick them up manually, which is fine with me, I enjoy learning and taking classes
shadow moss
I'm not saying you can't, just slightly harder road
unkempt cloud
I'm kind of an average student, top 35% and not in any particular clubs yet. Will projects increase my chances of getting into a good college? Not MIT or anything, just UT Austin, but I'm pretty sure I'm not getting in. Wondering if I have a chance. Taking Robotics, finishing the last CS Course, planning on doing as many projects as I can next year.
abstract spindle
How do I tell an interviewer that I know what something is, i know what it does, but i have never used it before but i am willing to learn
shadow moss
"I've never used X but I understand it's use case is Y"
abstract spindle
should i say "but im willing to learn how to use it" or is that going to sound bad
marsh wind
I prefer to say "I can learn" or "I know how to learn since in the past I succesfully learned and applied Z"
shadow moss
It's fluff text but say it if you want
You better learn it or I'm firing you
all programming jobs are going to have stuff you learn
they will have libraries that specific to them
Xevion, ask your guidance counselor, they probably know
watching my younger niece deal with colleges, I'm pretty it's coin flip making decisions sometimes
unkempt cloud
Can't wait.
marsh wind
It's fluff text but say it if you want
@shadow moss P.S. also depends on who is interviewing. If it's HR/recuriter often fluff is fine. Sometimes it feels like you need fluff to get past them
but if it's an actual tech person than it feels like being straight to the point is better
shadow moss
yea, part of interview skill to learn is reading your interviewers
though HR/Recruiter is likely to have yes/no checkboxes
do they know X,Y,Z? No, reject
marsh wind
yeah but there are some that are smarter/better than that.
abstract spindle
yeah this first interview is with a recruiter
so what im getting: basically tell him everything he wants to hear, make yourself look like a million bucks
unkempt cloud
And hope you don't get an interviewer who knows you're just trying to do that. Plan B, look like a be a million bucks.
shadow moss
if you act like you know X, recruiter tells team hiring you know X, main interview you don't know X, you might get written off right away
it's hard to know what's mandatory, what's not
marsh wind
hence I prefer a more careful apporach like "I know how to learn X since in the past I succesfully learned and applied Y which is related to X through Z"
shadow moss
like to be a developer on my team, we ask for C#, Building web API in C#, JSON.Net, Java, Visual Studio, Git, Powershell, Azure
C# is mandatory, next 2 are mostly mandatory, rest is wish list
abstract spindle
they were very vague in the job posting
You don’t have to have experience with all of these, but you should have experience with some of them and an interest to learn the others:
shadow moss
So talk about how X does Y and while you don't know X, you have worked with Z and it's very similar
marsh wind
I saw 2 oppoistes: super vague job posting or job posting for entry level position with requirements and stuff like for 10yrs exp
abstract spindle
yeah this is the only job posting on their site that doesn't have any experience requirements
it doesn't flat out say it's entry level but that's the vibe i'm getting
shadow moss
I'm just saying, when it comes to list of requirements, they are generally broken down into Mandatory, People with this will beat out those who don't have, All Nice, but Candidates with this won't be treated as better with candidates who don't
abstract spindle
The must haves:
Professional experience in a DevOps, Development, or SysAdmin role, preferably working with large scale distributed systems.
Experience running mission-critical Linux servers in virtualized environments
Experience with designing software and infrastructure at scale
Excellent communication and interpersonal skills
Comfort maintaining live production systems
Ability to work in an agile organization
Experience with hardware and systems automation
Ability to participate to Linode’s 24/7 incident response on-call rotation, including being
responsive and available to quickly troubleshoot and resolve issues
For the job I just started the job listing was extrimely vague and very short.
abstract spindle
i have all of these
marsh wind
so preping for interview was kinda hard 😁
abstract spindle
and how bad of an idea is it to mention their competitors
because i've used their main competitor's system which is extremely similar to theirs
marsh wind
🤷♂️ I don't think it is bad. Especially if it falls under:
So talk about how X does Y and while you don't know X, you have worked with Z and it's very similar
whole mountain
No, and you could probably use it to your advantage in saying in how you're familar with the whole idea
abstract spindle
Done
They said that the position was filled but they might have another opening to they wanted to interview me anyways
but they wanted me to have more experience with the linux kernel
white karma
You can do it!
abstract spindle
I doubt it, I’ve been unemployed for 2 months. I’ve had 6 interviews cancelled and 5 interviews say no to me, even for low paying customer service jobs. I don’t qualify for unemployment. My girlfriend might get laid off. I’m gonna have to move out with my parents
And hope someone takes over my lease
balmy patrol
Hi looking for projects to boost resume
abstract spindle
not the place to look
balmy patrol
then where?
opal perch
he's looking for project ideas I believe, or open source projects
marsh wind
sounds like a fit for #680716760134975491
uncut canopy
Rabbit is one of the most helpful people i have met on Discord. Big shout out to saving me a lot of time.
shadow moss
Don't put that on me
uncut canopy
I literally had to tell someone, "well tbh this isnt my idea. It's Rabbits. I'm just following what I think is good advice and its working." lol
"who's Rabbit?" was the next question of course. lol
marsh wind
was it in the live convo?
woven prawn
anyone here has experience interviewing at apple?
vernal echo
id like to hear from anyone with interview experience at all lol
woven prawn
python route? You can be a Data Analyst/Engineer, Infrastructure Engineer, CI/CD pipeline engineer, Scraper, Web developer and Machine Learning Engineer.
But you can always start as a junior python dev.
gilded valley
Python is used in lots of different places. Software development and data science are the two most high profile routes. Within software, it seems to me that web dev is by far the biggest field
Data science very much uses python as a tool though, you don't need a super deep knowledge of python - rather of the field in general and some specific libraries
vernal echo
what i'm afraid of is the expectation of an advanced education in something like math that would be expected alongside python knowledge. I'm self educated but I can't compete with someone who has the experience of a compsci degree
gilded valley
So for data science, that theoretical knowledge seems much more necessary - but for software dev, you definitely don't need any advanced maths or anything
In the pins is a post of a guy who went from 0 to landing a job by self teaching Python. It might be a worthwhile read for you
vernal echo
the pins?
gilded valley
pinned messages
here's the link though: https://www.reddit.com/r/learnpython/comments/ctkypf/im_100_self_taught_landed_my_first_job_my/
vapid jay
Honestly don’t do data science, unless you enjoy algorithms and math and that kind of stuff data science should be enjoyable but other than that you should start with web development if you haven’t started to learn anything yet
vernal echo
I'm working on a web development project with a friend whos a professional but in javascript react and it's just not the same as software development at all
gilded valley
React is software development
React has tonnes of stuff to learn about, and a pretty big associated software ecosystem. It's front end web development - which very much is software development
woven prawn
usually the bare minimum is that you have a GED or high school diploma, and you can substitute a college degree with 3-5 years of professional expeirence
gilded valley
Even with experience, sometimes employers will look unfavourably upon you for not having a degree
woven prawn
True that.
gilded valley
but it's definitely possible to find jobs without experience
some employers are just very stuck in their ways
vernal echo
that's why I'm working on this project now which will be used by volunteers in fire departments. I assume they'll judge me based on my github
woven prawn
Yeah man good luck.
gilded valley
I'm currently studying for a Data Science and Analytics degree (BSc)
woven prawn
I have a B.S. in Computer Science
vernal echo
sounds like it's time to go back to college
@gilded valley do you need something like a masters for that specialty? im ignorant I know
gilded valley
I intend to probably work in just software development after I graduate. From what I see looking at job postings, there are options for people data science with only bachelors degrees - but the cooler jobs are looking for masters/phds
vernal echo
but at that point you'd probably stray from programming and instead focus on theoretical math if i know data science at all
i love working with data in Python but i hit my limits when it comes to the crazy theoreticals
woven prawn
Two types of jobs that I know that often require a masters degree: ML engineer and Data scientist
vernal echo
well then I guess i'll find a good guide on studying for the interview and just wing it. don't think i've ever had a bad interview
marsh wind
but at that point you'd probably stray from programming and instead focus on theoretical math if i know data science at all
@vernal echo
It's a bit more complex than that
Like there are data scientist who are deeply into theory
For instance those who develop new algorithms, types of networks etc
Probably like people at Google brain and etc
They are close to academic world in fact
And they need strong calculus, linear algebra and etc
Those who are to use things rather than develop usually need basic understanding of calculus and linear algebra and rather need stats
And very good skills at data visualization, presenting results, analysis, problem solving etc
vapid jay
Any advice regarding going to college? I currently make $40,000 a year with no degree in the central US, have $20,000 saved at 21. and no debt. Even if it took a while to self teach web development, I'd likely be saving $10,000 or more per year until then should I not go to university. US student loan debt is non-dischargable, so it's questionable on if it's a good idea to accrue. Most scholarships you have to actively apply for require you to be a group that I'm not. Considering just continuing my current job and self teaching web dev. My uncle has some wordpress clients I could probably help with eventually, and I have a webdev freelancer friend irl tutoring me for free on the business and technical aspect, his recommendation is to not go to university. Of course the returns on a degree would be awesome, but four years of lost income, missed out on compound interest, and possibility of getting into a situation of being unable to pay back non-dischargeable debt leading to a possibly life ruining situation are something that I'm considering prior to enrolling.
woven prawn
Do you love software stuff or do you mostly want to make more money?
vapid jay
A bit of both honestly, I heavily prefer programming to my current job.
It's really the only employable skill I've enjoyed.
woven prawn
the thing is 40k is pretty decent. I think some entry level software jobs also pay 40k
so college seems like a bad investment
vapid jay
that's my point yeah.
marsh wind
it would appear rather unanimous that unless you go ML/DS path, or perhaps game dev or any algorithm heavy job that experience can sub college
so if you can get some experinece over year-two
build porfolio for CV
vapid jay
Yeah, just thought I'd get some more opinions. As I said I have someone who's already a freelancer (with no college) tutoring me, have a good job right now, and am investing quite a bit each year. So I'll just self study under his tutorage and start creating a portfolio. Might even be able to just get promoted inside my company rather than leave too.
marsh wind
perphaps, if possible make some automation or dev at current job that you sould end up in a good spot for landing job
having someone tutoring for free is also a rare comodity
vapid jay
@marsh wind I have already automated a large portion of my job and am seeking out more opportunities to do so for other roles.
I maintain 2-3 scripts right now that automate reporting.
but going to be ramping that up soon once I talk to some managers
marsh wind
that is nice: means when you will apply for jobs you can report it as related experinece
vapid jay
Yeah
Well I'll go the self study route while continuing my job. I only work around 2-3 hours per day in exchange for $40k salary due to what I've automated.
Every hour I work after that 2-3 hours is really just self studying programming rn or maintaining scripts which isn't required of me, I just do it because it builds skills.
craggy raven
Hello guys, does someone know where can I find covid data ?
I mean if someone know a website that store covid datas up to date in JSON format
marsh wind
what Lukas means that you should rather ask in #data-science-and-ml
craggy raven
Ok thx lossberg
vapid jay
@vapid jay chances it won't always be 2-3 hours, and uni gets very expensive in the USA.
For my in state university it'd be $14k tuition, and dorms would cost $14k a year prob more after commuting and stuff
So like assuming I get a full scholarship for tuition I'd still be moving out of my parents and paying $14+k a year for commuting and rent
Out of state universities average tuition is like $25k+
Yeah I don't really plan to just do wordpress stuff, I was just listing that my Uncle has clients he was willing to transfer to me for a cut.
slow iris
do you like the current job you work at?
vapid jay
For now yeah
slow iris
would you like to get a degree to go for future job opportunities?
vapid jay
Would rather not tbh.
slow iris
then why contemplate going to university if you don't wanna do it lol
do you only wanna go to uni for money or @vapid jay
slow iris
why don't you just self study and build a portfolio? Plus what job do you wanna have that requires going to uni
vapid jay
Don't have too much of a specific job in mind tbh. I've heard conflicting info that getting a job is insanely hard if you don't have a degree, and that it isn't much more difficult given you have the same skill set.
slow iris
@woven prawn do you think you need a degree to be a software engineer?
woven prawn
you kinda do, if you want to do something other than PHP or front-end.
like if you don't have a degree it's kinda hard to change your title from <Language Name> Engineer to something else.
slow iris
what is the difference between software engineer and something like python engineer?
crude folio
Hi guys got a question about a specific career. Are there any terms for somebody who develops real-time 3D scans? Using stuff like SLAM (simultaneous location and mapping)
woven prawn
Say, Distributed Systems Engineer, Build Quality Engineer or Cloud Solutions Engineer
shadow moss
@vapid jay what state are you in and do you have any credit hours?
vapid jay
MN, like 1 semester done from AP and dual enrollment
woven prawn
You were in AP class but didn't go to college.
vapid jay
@woven prawn it's worse, i was in dual enrollment and didn't go
i graduated a year early
woven prawn
why.
vapid jay
not enough scholarships
shadow moss
If your home situation is stable, go to community college
woven prawn
Yeah you can do the 2 year community college + 2 year college thing
slow iris
you're earning 40k a year rn aren't you gaul
woven prawn
community college is practically free
vapid jay
Yeah, I know what that is @shadow moss
shadow moss
If you graduate with Associates, do the BAchelor thing, if you decide not to, you still have associates
vapid jay
Was told those are useless
shadow moss
By who?
vapid jay
Actually no, the associates at a community college is totally different than what you need to transfer to the CSE faculty at U of M
shadow moss
CSE?
vapid jay
science and engineering faculty
they have different entrance requirements based on your major
But yeah you don't actually get an associates by taking the 2 years of transfer stuff
and if you don't get a 3.5 you can't transfer to the CSE generally to do comp sci
vapid jay
Already did
vapid jay
It is unfortunately.
I mean my goal rn is literally just full stack web dev if that helps at all
I don't plan on going into anything else
vapid jay
Oh yeah I already know what I have to learn for that, my question is more so like do you actually need a degree for that.
As I said I have a friend who's a freelancer (with no degree either) helping me out. I'm just wondering if it's actually viable to forego the degree. From what you guys have told me it is, so I'll probably put it off for a bit.
woven prawn
No you don't need a degree
but you'll have a smaller selection of jobs
in the long term
slow iris
@woven prawn is this based off of your experience in East Asia or do you know people in different areas that have the same job as you that have similar experience as you
woven prawn
it's universal
slow iris
ah ok. Do you think that is just a stigma that comes with the fact that people assume your not better than the person with the degree?
woven prawn
no, i don't think it's a stigma. it's that very few self-taught engineers continue the learning process after they've gotten a job to fill in the theoretical gap the lack.
So the "degree or 5 years equivalent professional experience" exemption usually applies to the following two situations:
- People who grew up as script kids (used in a non-derogatory way here), who started working professionally extremely young (say 18). And by the time they reach the age of 22, which is usually the age for new college grads, they've already had a sh*t ton of valuable hands-on experience.
- People who went through the 90s or even 80s, who are in management roles.
shadow moss
As someone in this field who has been around and in US, no degree is limiting
Full Stack Web Dev is what everyone is doing
slow iris
do you think a degree just signifies how good you will be in a certain field and that you still have more to offer
woven prawn
No, you actually know additional stuff if you have a degree.
People with some education can make better educated guesses at work, and this allows them to be more efficient.
slow iris
ye ik thats why i said "and that you still have more to offer"
woven prawn
I think the degree is a hard requirement, the more to offer part is assessed in interviews.
slow iris
so do you think some people will not even get to the interview process because they don't have a degree?
woven prawn
Yeah I do think so, when everything else considered equal.
shadow moss
Yes
slow iris
do you have experience interviewing people?
woven prawn
Yes.
shadow moss
Do I? Yes, I’m involved in all interviews for our team
And likely i join the dev interviews to drive them crazy
I’m an SRE
slow iris
cool
shadow moss
And people without degrees sometimes get thrown out during we have 10 resumes, let’s make it 3 for interviews
woven prawn
I've interviewed 50+ engineers and the ones without a degree or relevant degree usually perform really well with specific stuff, like, say, pure python, pure Django questions.
cobalt acorn
@shadow moss sre sitting in a Dev interview has to be hilarious. I was browsing /sre last night, working my way to that position as well. Albeit not as much a developer (hybrid Architect / DevOps)
woven prawn
But they underperform when you ask follow-ups
shadow moss
Yea, we love to throw typing errors at people and degree people tend to do better
woven prawn
shadow moss
I think I know
woven prawn
say for example, this is one of the interview questions I used. Most people know yeah it's getting a UDP socket stuff etc.
but then when you ask them what do you think that IP address is.
1 out of 10 knows the answer
shadow moss
I kind of know
slow iris
enlighten us
woven prawn
the answer we are looking for is the candidate knows or guesses it's a multicast address.
slow iris
: (
shadow moss
My networking isn’t greatest
dusky igloo
The code is complicated, the same purpose could be achieved with simpler code.
woven prawn
i copied that code from somewhere, really just want to see if the candidate knows a bit about networking.
dusky igloo
What's happening here tho?
woven prawn
some other follow-up questions would be like: yes, it's UDP, what do you think are the differences between UDP and TCP?
dusky igloo
Job interview?
woven prawn
yep
dusky igloo
For what position?
woven prawn
Software Engineer
dusky igloo
What firm or company
woven prawn
my previous employer, no name startup,.
shadow moss
I’d care if you got the message but it’s UDP
woven prawn
woven prawn
i don't know where you are going here.
dusky igloo
Me either
shadow moss
This isn’t a recruiting channel
dusky igloo
Yeah i got it
shadow moss
Bonsai, neither does UDP
woven prawn
The code snippet was taken from this Cloudflare engineering blog, it talked about how UPnP was used to amplify the DDoS attach volume. https://blog.cloudflare.com/ssdp-100gbps/
Interesting read.
shadow moss
ISPs need to fix the UDP attacks
woven prawn
Time for me to get ready for bed.
uncut canopy
The degree thing is an interesting conversation I hear a lot about theses days.. I have seen a high number of experience+certification guys (with good attitudes and work ethics) landing high tech jobs, especially in operations. Also, A Software Engineer I am friends with says experience and mindset are what they look for most and he has a degree. Finally, It seems in the end to us experience and networking can win out but a good degree will have an edge getting your foot in the door at new places or fields with high numbers of applicants..We both agree certifications from reputable places are always a plus. On the other hand, I myself do not have a degree as finishing hasn't been a privilege I have had as of yet and I am SRE. Though, a very rare exception it seems. My friend has a B.s and he made more in a shorter time than I did at first and will have an easier time finding work. While I have beaten people with B.s and M.s degrees in the past I would not want to take those odds with 26 million people looking for work with out a degree. Just my random, non factual thoughts on the subject I guess.
plucky cypress
Not exactly the right channel but probably the closest thing to it. Anyone have any suggestions on how to make a little bit of side money with Python programming? The go to suggestion seems to be making apps and such, but I cannot do front end programming to save my life
woven prawn
Are you already an engineer?
cobalt acorn
@plucky cypress Upwork, fiver, freelancing jobs is what i start around
shadow moss
getting a job has fair amount of luck involved
marsh wind
as some who got a job a months ago I can attest to that 
marsh wind
well idk about more experienced ones. but for first job it is 1000% true
abstract spindle
Someone hire me
I’ll give you $10 if you hire me
and a really good back massage i’m great at those
slow iris
@abstract spindle you pay if you get hired
abstract spindle
entry level python jobs are hard to find
any legit company only seems to hire senior devs
white karma
Seems counterintuitive given the popularity of the program
shadow moss
?
python is rarely used as exclusive language
outside a few domains, Data Science
most of time it's glue that holds other things together
backends for web development
script that deploys things
so if you only know Python, you will have a hard time finding work esp at major corps who likely standardized on Java/C#(.Net) a long time ago
startups are mish mash but alot of javascript/python/Rust/Go depending
abstract spindle
I have never used React but every company seems to have a massive hard on for it
so i should probably learn it
@shadow moss what languages do you know?
shadow moss
Powershell and Python. I can read C#. I’m also SRE which isn’t traditional developer
abstract spindle
i think i'd enjoy being a full stack dev than i would dev ops... i know javascript enough, i'm sure i could figure out react
abstract spindle
why is there a massive lack of good junior full stack developer jobs
indigo sleet
They get filled quickly
sick mist
Well, usually juniors need training on the job, are less productive, need more cleanup after them, etc. Not every team has senior in sufficient numbers to guide and nuture them. So they pay a premium to get people with already 5-10 years ok the job that they don't have to babysit.
Doesn't mean juniors can't be great for a team
But your team has to be able to handle them. And you need some long-term vision in your management as well, because good juniors become awesome seniors down the road
But yes it takes time, and most of the time, managers want it all, now
abstract spindle
so what should i do?
pulsar kettle
hey guys, so i'm currently taking data science path on code academy. I'm graduating this May with a BS in Health Science but wanted to know what would i need to know / master in order to get an entry level job as a Health Analyst or Data Analyst within the health care field
i've been practicing with exercism to improve my python skills, along with learning SQL and i plan on mastering R later on too
I just want to make sure im on the right path, if anyone doesnt mind helping me please DM, i have a lot of questions
sick mist
so what should i do?
@abstract spindle first, remember that this is definitely the worst possible time in a while to look for a new junior job, since most companies are not even sure they'll be open in 6 months, so hiring is a very sensitive topic right now
sick mist
Which means that even if things don't go too well for you in the interviews it might not be directly linked to you not a sign you are not a good fit
It's more a sign that the other party is scared right now
It will go better eventually, but remember you're in a bad time and place, so don't get demotivated 😅
Then, you always seem to be very negative here, I hope you're not bringing this to your interviews. I've interviewed people who felt depressed and obviously it wasn't helping projecting them in my team 😕 it's important to be positive and energetic during the interview, even if you then get back to your actual mood when the call is over 😁
abstract spindle
Yeah, I try to be energetic in interviews, I just feel so defeated
sick mist
Then, focus is also important, in marketing they say "qualified". Applying to everything is a huge time sink, it might give you better results to focus on what you know and people might want, and only apply where the two groups overlap
This includes jobs that you might not want to be doing, but people would be happy have you do still. I'm not updated on your specific profile, but for instance if you're a sysadmin who wants to move to front end dev, maybe postpone your migration to dev because that's a lot of skills you don't yet have, and instead look for more sysadmin jobs at colleges for example
(of course adjust what needs to be adjusted to your specific case)
abstract spindle
I've always done WordPress development, but even those jobs are hard to find rnm
I've had multiple cancelled interviews and waste of time interviews
it feels so out of my control
more than it normally does
sick mist
Yep, it's really trash for everyone right now, it's not just you if it can help your mood 😅