#career-advice | Python | Page 338

vapid jay Apr 10, 2020, 10:07 PM

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is that decent

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im only 14

shut geyser Apr 10, 2020, 10:34 PM

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I had 160 and then i discovered reddit :/

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now i'm 80 at best

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remember kids

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not even once

deep flicker Apr 10, 2020, 10:52 PM

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IQ test only tell you how good you are at IQ tests.

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You can take the whole set of ETS cognitive tests and still have the life outcome of a moron, discipline and motivation are key factors that those tests cannot account for. Then you also have sociability. Difficult to find a job even with a high IQ if you can't deal with people, unless it's so high some university invests in you since you're 12.

white karma Apr 10, 2020, 11:10 PM

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I hate dealing with people but I’m good at it

onyx sluice Apr 10, 2020, 11:54 PM

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Some serious talk, how can I know how much I can possibly earn with my brain power
@vapid jay Not very much if you think that there's some strong correlation between "brain power" and success

radiant moon Apr 11, 2020, 12:53 AM

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Serious answer: apply for jobs, see which ones you get and how much they pay

open patio Apr 11, 2020, 3:36 AM

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@undone cedar sorry, but we don't allow recruitment here

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if you are looking for open source collaboration, we have that in #680716760134975491

timber lotus Apr 11, 2020, 7:16 AM

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hi

fair wharf Apr 11, 2020, 7:22 AM

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vscode pycharm atom ?

deep flicker Apr 11, 2020, 7:45 AM

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Emacs and Pycharm for me.

glass breach Apr 11, 2020, 7:49 AM

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If on windows, I use VSCode. On linux, I lean towards Vim

indigo sleet Apr 11, 2020, 8:22 AM

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PyCharm/IDEA here

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But the main thing is to try a few out

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See what you like

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An editor is a personal choice, like makeup or which car you want to drive

fathom swallow Apr 11, 2020, 10:56 AM

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If you're low on ram, like I am, I suggest using Sublime Text, VSCode's python server takes about 1GB of ram and uses about 1.5GB of ram when I have like 20 classes inside my project

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Sublime has nice packages for python, but I think PyCharm is the best bet

vapid jay Apr 11, 2020, 11:02 AM

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pycharm is the only serious contender out of those

supple fossil Apr 11, 2020, 1:43 PM

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anyone been hit by this rona recession

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i just got cut to part time work

proud glade Apr 11, 2020, 2:16 PM

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You are definitely not alone in this.. Keep ya head up

supple fossil Apr 11, 2020, 2:39 PM

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Thx playa

bronze gazelle Apr 11, 2020, 4:29 PM

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How did you guys deal with figuring out what field you want to be a professional in?

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My undergrad is in electrical-computer eng, and I just cant freaking decide what I want to specialize in.

radiant moon Apr 11, 2020, 4:29 PM

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I was never in that position, but if I was, I bet the answer would be: whichever (decent) job I got first

bronze gazelle Apr 11, 2020, 4:30 PM

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Like i dont know what i want to do with the rest of my life

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I currently do systems engineering for a DoD contractor and I don't particularly like it.

radiant moon Apr 11, 2020, 4:35 PM

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probably looks good on a resume, though

shadow moss Apr 11, 2020, 8:07 PM

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to other contractors

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for many private, it's a red flag

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like us, it takes alot for us not to dump Fed Contractor into shredder

radiant moon Apr 11, 2020, 8:11 PM

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huh, I'm a bigot about many things, but somehow missed that particular prejudice 🙂

shadow moss Apr 11, 2020, 8:30 PM

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DoD system contracting is steady but very rigid and compartmentalized so you get people who were like, where is policy for this/manual for that? Oh, that different part of the system, doesn't someone else handle that?

radiant moon Apr 11, 2020, 8:30 PM

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yeah

shadow moss Apr 11, 2020, 8:31 PM

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couple of stints, I get it, 10+ years, stink eye

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like we don't do a ton of python programming at current job, but we had contractor in last year for interview, asked about Python 2 or 3, and he was like "We are python 2 and not converting, no reason to do so"

open patio Apr 11, 2020, 11:56 PM

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!warn 411607968497532980 you should not post something so inappropriate here in this server

inner wrenBOT Apr 11, 2020, 11:56 PM

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:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @rose hemlock.

thin lava Apr 11, 2020, 11:59 PM

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@open patio did u make this profile picture

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it looks really good

open patio Apr 12, 2020, 12:00 AM

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yes.. but this is not the channel to discuss this in and please stop spamming the picture

thin lava Apr 12, 2020, 12:00 AM

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sorry Freind it wasnt meant to spamming srrry

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Which channel do dsicuss it in

open patio Apr 12, 2020, 12:05 AM

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any of the off-topic channels are fine

vapid jay Apr 12, 2020, 2:14 AM

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hey guys im pretty much new to programming
can anyone send a real piece of work
actual work
from his job
in any field

radiant moon Apr 12, 2020, 2:15 AM

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yes, please automate the deployment of our service to a new restricted region. kthxbye

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oh we already got the NDA signed, and RiffRaff has been moved to a secure location, and become a naturalized citizen

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new identity.

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bought him a pickup truck and everything

vapid jay Apr 12, 2020, 2:24 AM

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@vapid jay No sure whether this is serious. But if you are just looking for professional code that is actually deployed and runs stable, you are better off looking at open source projects

sturdy axle Apr 12, 2020, 3:13 AM

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What are some job options to look at that involve programming, but isn’t an actual dev job, somebody could get by end of 2021?

languid rampart Apr 12, 2020, 5:52 AM

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@sturdy axle Maybe my knowledge is limited, but imo programming == dev job, unless maybe if you are a teacher

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Ok my turn to ask question. Do you guys think the job market will crash after all these Covid stuffs die down?

wet salmon Apr 12, 2020, 6:36 AM

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Depends on the field, I guess. I really don't see many programming jobs crashing after all this.

paper bay Apr 12, 2020, 9:27 AM

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Hey guys I am newbie to programing and python and I have finished python but still learning and I am about to finish selenium can anyone help what was your path what I should do and not etc for beginner

woven prawn Apr 12, 2020, 9:36 AM

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Do not spam the same text in different channels

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If you are looking for a career, I'd suggest you check out your local job board listings and read up the requirements companies ask

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it will give you a good idea of what skills are need for you to become successful career-wise speaking

digital narwhal Apr 12, 2020, 10:08 AM

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Hello

tawny flax Apr 12, 2020, 11:12 AM

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Hi there

trim juniper Apr 12, 2020, 2:54 PM

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damn

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what field should i specialize in

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i want to do electric engineering ( those hardware stuff as far as i know )

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it is pretty different than software

vapid jay Apr 12, 2020, 3:14 PM

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electrical engineering is hard..

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try your hand at embedded.. take up a short program somewhere to get your hands dirty and find your inclination for it

idle haven Apr 12, 2020, 3:48 PM

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hi folks

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i works desktop support for windows and mac machine and would like to progress more on sys admin kinda roles. by learning python i understand automation comes easy but how supporting end user computing. Thanks

sharp mist Apr 12, 2020, 4:23 PM

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Heres rule number one

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Never use selenium if you dont have to

radiant moon Apr 12, 2020, 6:22 PM

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naw, rule number one is "never get involved in a land war in Asia"

pseudo scarab Apr 12, 2020, 8:24 PM

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hey guys I need some advice. IM trying to go to college to pursue a degree in computer science hoping that it I can land a good job later. Im stuck right now in my second calculus class. Im not really doing good in this level of math and I feel like I wont be able to contiun with the high levels of math. Did any of you guys get jobs in this field without a degree in computer science?

onyx sluice Apr 12, 2020, 8:33 PM

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You're going to throw your entire degree away cause you're struggling with one class?

pseudo scarab Apr 12, 2020, 8:34 PM

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not so much thorw it away but im realizing how much more harder math classes I need to take and im stuggling in integral calc

onyx sluice Apr 12, 2020, 8:35 PM

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What was your pre-college education like?

pseudo scarab Apr 12, 2020, 8:35 PM

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like i feel like

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it wasnt pretty good

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i did really good in high school

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over a 4.0 gpa

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was pretty good **

onyx sluice Apr 12, 2020, 8:36 PM

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Did you feel you didn't need to try in high school?

pseudo scarab Apr 12, 2020, 8:36 PM

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basically yea i didnt try. But now im trying harder than ever for this calss and its just not working out

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high school was easy even with APs

onyx sluice Apr 12, 2020, 8:36 PM

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A common issue. You sail through prior education and then college hits you like a brick wall

pseudo scarab Apr 12, 2020, 8:37 PM

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basically

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my other calsses have been easy but this math is beating me up

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im usualy good at math too but I dont know why I just cant make any gains in these calc classes

formal belfry Apr 12, 2020, 8:43 PM

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@pseudo scarab If you are simply looking for an easy way out (you must be honest with yourself about what you're really looking for), then, sadly, that doesn't exist.

pseudo scarab Apr 12, 2020, 8:44 PM

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i see what you mean

formal belfry Apr 12, 2020, 8:44 PM

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Unless you have prior experience with computer science you might find it just as hard, if not harder than Maths.

pseudo scarab Apr 12, 2020, 8:44 PM

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i really like the different coding classes I have taken

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ive taken a python and c++ classes

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but I feel like im just scrathcing the surface and the math will hold me back

formal belfry Apr 12, 2020, 8:45 PM

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I know a friend who doesn't have a degree but works - it's a risky route, and he also had years of experience (he started learning in his early teens).

pseudo scarab Apr 12, 2020, 8:45 PM

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ohh ok i see

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the job security isnt there

formal belfry Apr 12, 2020, 8:45 PM

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Depending on what area you want to go into, there isn't a lot of maths.

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If your great, then it will be. If your simply average then you could be replaced by anyone.

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What sector are you interested in?

pseudo scarab Apr 12, 2020, 8:46 PM

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i dont really know yet tbh

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there so mcuh but i dont know where i fit in

formal belfry Apr 12, 2020, 8:47 PM

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i really like the different coding classes I have taken
@pseudo scarab That is a good start.

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Out of interest, what career paths does a Maths degree open up?

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(Without the need for further studies)?

pseudo scarab Apr 12, 2020, 8:49 PM

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i guess with a math degree you can be a statisticam or something like that

formal belfry Apr 12, 2020, 8:49 PM

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the job security isnt there
@pseudo scarab True, even though he's very good, it's still so much more risky than having a degree and experience.

pseudo scarab Apr 12, 2020, 8:49 PM

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that makes sense

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i appreciate you guys btw

formal belfry Apr 12, 2020, 8:49 PM

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but I feel like im just scrathcing the surface and the math will hold me back
@pseudo scarab As long as your solid in the basics of calc you'll be fine - unless you go into really low-level theory.

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As a software developer algebra will suffice.

pseudo scarab Apr 12, 2020, 8:50 PM

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I understand the basic derivatives and integrals but I just cant do some of the advanced problems

formal belfry Apr 12, 2020, 8:51 PM

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Like what?

pseudo scarab Apr 12, 2020, 8:51 PM

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like for example

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Solve each initial value problem. If possible, solve for y explicitly. (15 points each)
a) y’ + (2/t)y = cos t/t2 ; y(�) = 0,� > 0 (linear)
b) y’ = (e-x + ex
)/(3 + 4y) ; y(0) = 1 (separable)

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stuff like this

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the ? are supposed to be (t)

formal belfry Apr 12, 2020, 8:57 PM

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I see what you mean, now...

pseudo scarab Apr 12, 2020, 8:57 PM

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lol

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now im also trying to learn all of this stuff online!

formal belfry Apr 12, 2020, 8:57 PM

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First year?

pseudo scarab Apr 12, 2020, 8:57 PM

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which makes it even harder for me

formal belfry Apr 12, 2020, 8:58 PM

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Oh yeah, what with everything closed.

pseudo scarab Apr 12, 2020, 8:58 PM

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yea my second semster

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yea the covid shut my campus

formal belfry Apr 12, 2020, 8:58 PM

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Not so disruptive to change now as it will be a year down the line.

pseudo scarab Apr 12, 2020, 8:59 PM

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i most am doing ge stuff

formal belfry Apr 12, 2020, 8:59 PM

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I'd suggest that you give it a hard think during the "break" and see what you decide is the best option overall.

pseudo scarab Apr 12, 2020, 8:59 PM

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im at a jc

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ok thank very much for your input

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i apprecaite the honesty and guidence

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@formal belfry @onyx sluice ^

formal belfry Apr 12, 2020, 9:00 PM

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No problem. All the best!

white karma Apr 12, 2020, 11:36 PM

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Solid career advice

brave cosmos Apr 13, 2020, 12:36 AM

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Hey guys!
I'm trying to pick the second back-end language to learn (first one is php). I'm not really sure if I need to pick a Python or not. I'll probably would like to stick to web development for now and my concern is php and Python are targeting the same area there (in terms of complexity of the projects). Another option is asp.net + c# which I already know a little bit.
I would appreciate any advice

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Already know JS, I'm picking back-end language for now :)

gilded valley Apr 13, 2020, 12:46 AM

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What are your goals with learning languages? What are you trying to do?

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If you approach it from a web-dev perspective, they kinda are

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Just Python is much better at it

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MVC web development

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Laravel and Django solve essentially the same problem

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Sure, but its an area in which Python shines - and the only area which PHP really operates in. Either way, this isn't on topic for this channel. @me in an ot channel if you want to carry on (for PHP vs Python)

brave cosmos Apr 13, 2020, 12:51 AM

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What are your goals with learning languages? What are you trying to do?
I kinda like web development, but would like to switch from building small/middle-sized web apps to something more complex. I know I can do that with PHP but still I think there are too many small web apps running on PHP right now in the web and this is frustrating.
Desktop app development is quite interesting as well, but maybe I can think about it later)

gilded valley Apr 13, 2020, 12:51 AM

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Well, are you looking to get employed, or to freelance?

brave cosmos Apr 13, 2020, 12:51 AM

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Get employed

gilded valley Apr 13, 2020, 12:52 AM

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In which case, you should look around at what companies in your local area want

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There might be a lot of .net, or it might be a hipster city with lots of Rust/Golang

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It could all be stuck in the 00s with Java everywhere

brave cosmos Apr 13, 2020, 12:54 AM

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Your reasoning is super weird. You are frustrated because someone published small web apo in php?
I know that may seems weird. But what I mean is there are high demand of PHP programmers out there, but if you check a bit closer it turns out quite a lot of agencies are hiring PHP devs to work on a really small low-budget projects

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It's just my point of view and I'm talking about my local market

gilded valley Apr 13, 2020, 12:54 AM

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Learning the full JS stack is a good idea for employability. Lots and lots of places are using a Node/React or Node/Angular stack

brave cosmos Apr 13, 2020, 12:58 AM

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That's true as well, that's why it's difficult to pick)

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In my area the PHP is the most popular one, I would say the only popular. But I'm planning to move to another city a bit later and it's difficult to predict how the market may change. But I got your point @vapid jay thanks

gilded valley Apr 13, 2020, 1:02 AM

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Yeah, Angular seems rubbish - but if there's lots of companies in your area doing it, it might be worth learning

torpid bolt Apr 13, 2020, 1:38 AM

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small projects are always going to outnumber the big ones, and even if big ones requires bigger teams, there will still be more jobs for small projects than for big ones, i think.

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i think python is more easily used for bigger projects than php, but of course, there are exceptions, it's not a general rule

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i'm sure you can find c# or java used for some small projects.

brave cosmos Apr 13, 2020, 1:41 AM

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Hey @torpid bolt , thanks. I think the amount of small projects which are built on c# is much, much less in comparison to PHP. It's not bad but for me personally is definitely a big plus for c#

torpid bolt Apr 13, 2020, 1:42 AM

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sure, i was just saying that to say it's not a general rule, but i totally got your point

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i'm saying i feel python is a bit more like c# than php in that regard

brave cosmos Apr 13, 2020, 1:42 AM

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Yep good point

shadow moss Apr 13, 2020, 2:31 AM

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Alot of Enterprise stuff is written in C#

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like all our Frontends are TypeScript with C# ASP.Net backends

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it's not a terrible language and with Core, it's open source

brave cosmos Apr 13, 2020, 2:39 AM

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Yup it's good in many ways. But the fact that they are using another db (microsoft sql) quite often and you need to learn it makes me frustrated. And also that crazy environment mess with .net framework vs net core

neon moat Apr 13, 2020, 11:35 AM

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@gilded valley is correct, best to check your area and see what companies are requiring, no point in learning xyz if majority of companies are using abc

clear sonnet Apr 13, 2020, 12:06 PM

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Hey fellas, I got some spare time during this quarantine and I'm bored of making personal projects, so I was thinking that I can make some money for a new laptop I will need for university. I'm pretty solid with python and know basics of working with pyqt, openpyxl, selenium and c/c++ (SFML).

I was thinking of freelancing/internshiping, but local companies don't really hire highschool students, and I'm not really sure where to go online. Any hints?

wind hinge Apr 13, 2020, 12:09 PM

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I got suggestion form one guy to practice aalgorithms, is that good idea?

opal perch Apr 13, 2020, 2:12 PM

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I guess that depends what your goals are, if you've been invited to a google interview, then I would say, that's probably a decent idea

marsh wind Apr 13, 2020, 2:20 PM

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probably not just google but any of tech giants?

oblique kite Apr 13, 2020, 3:33 PM

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i am still in middle school, and i am curious to know, will python still be in use by the time i go to work

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i am learning it because it is fun tho

placid narwhal Apr 13, 2020, 3:34 PM

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@oblique kite Python will be around for a long time, you should have no fears about learning Python thoroughly at your age.

oblique kite Apr 13, 2020, 3:35 PM

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thank you

placid narwhal Apr 13, 2020, 3:35 PM

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It's interesting, because as the 'tech' industry evolves, Python is constantly probing new areas to break into. Now is Python the best choice every time? No. But is it often a good choice? Yes.

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Any idea what your tech passion is?

oblique kite Apr 13, 2020, 3:35 PM

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yes, that was my largest concern

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i chose python because of its possibilities with machine learning

placid narwhal Apr 13, 2020, 3:36 PM

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Oh, Python is an excellent choice. I don't see it being unseated anytime soon.

oblique kite Apr 13, 2020, 3:36 PM

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yeah

placid narwhal Apr 13, 2020, 3:36 PM

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I feel obliged to mention that I recently read this article: https://tryolabs.com/blog/2020/04/02/swift-googles-bet-on-differentiable-programming/

Swift: Google's bet on differentiable programming | Tryolabs Blog

Google's plans on making Swift the first mainstream language with first-class language-integrated differentiable programming capabilities. What's so cool about Swift?

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Even if Swift becomes a large contender in ML, I don't think it has the chance to become the sole language. I'd say Python, and even R, are too far established atm.

oblique kite Apr 13, 2020, 3:39 PM

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thank you

placid narwhal Apr 13, 2020, 3:41 PM

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np

shadow moss Apr 13, 2020, 3:51 PM

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meh, it's Google making that bet, I wouldn't worry about it

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they have tendency to fold and walk away from the table randomly

placid narwhal Apr 13, 2020, 3:59 PM

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@shadow moss The thing I see here is that Google has a lot to gain from betting right for ML. It's how Google bet on Go for helping its networking/server-side apps issues... and has been very successful. Google can improve its services quality by using ML, and Google already has patches merged into Swift master. The Swift team is seeing Google's vision and is helping it become a reality. Read the article about the differentiable programming bit to know what I mean.

shadow moss Apr 13, 2020, 4:05 PM

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Sure

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from article even

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so I didn't even read the article and was like "Google has tendency to just drop stuff randomly"

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and article backs up my thought so it's well known

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Go served direct need Google had which is Python is too freaking slow

oblique kite Apr 13, 2020, 4:11 PM

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they have tendency to fold and walk away from the table randomly
@shadow moss thats true

placid narwhal Apr 13, 2020, 4:12 PM

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@shadow moss true, but Google uses ML to improve its services. It has a reason to bet properly on whichever technologies it invests in.

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I'm not convinced Swift will be the #1 that Google seems to be betting on, but I think it's at least a good idea to follow what will happen.

shadow moss Apr 13, 2020, 4:13 PM

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Sure, and apparently they have gotten this far with whatever they are doing

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maybe it goes well

oblique kite Apr 13, 2020, 4:13 PM

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althoguh it bets though, the point hes trying to make is that they back off on these bets

shadow moss Apr 13, 2020, 4:13 PM

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it's hard to say

oblique kite Apr 13, 2020, 4:13 PM

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it's hard to say
@shadow moss yeah

shadow moss Apr 13, 2020, 4:13 PM

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I'm just saying from career point of view, I wouldn't automatically go all in on something Google does

placid narwhal Apr 13, 2020, 4:14 PM

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@shadow moss Of course not.

shadow moss Apr 13, 2020, 4:14 PM

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I'd keep an eye on for sure, but I'd be hesitate until it shows real progress and use

placid narwhal Apr 13, 2020, 4:14 PM

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I don't think it's worth it to learn Swift for ML purposes, at least not yet. The ecosystem doesn't even fully support it.

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I'd keep an eye on for sure, but I'd be hesitate until it shows real progress and use

^^^

marsh wind Apr 13, 2020, 4:41 PM

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@placid narwhal also don't forget one thing. Sure Google uses lots of ML. Like they developed tensorflow

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Which is actually not python

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And most of heavy computational lifting in ML is actually not done with Python on low level

placid narwhal Apr 13, 2020, 4:45 PM

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not done with Python on low level

Of course it isn't.

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@marsh wind ^^

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I'm not a ML specialist (I do lots of infra and *nix work), but my understanding is that TF is largely a backend. It's like how Numpy has its core functionality built in C, but uses Python as a front-end.

marsh wind Apr 13, 2020, 4:51 PM

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yeah

placid narwhal Apr 13, 2020, 4:51 PM

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The article talks about how Google is extending TF w/ Swift.

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The benefits that Swift offers as a front-end for TF as opposed to other tech.

neon moat Apr 13, 2020, 6:39 PM

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@clear sonnet getting someone to pay you with no experience is a difficult task. Do you have proof of working on open source projects, a live project / website or a personal github profile you can show off?

Try and attend meetups (even remotely right now) to make connections, usually they are well attended by people within the community and you can start and make connections. Its not as straight forward as being hired in such a short amount of time without significant experience im afraid.

obtuse thorn Apr 13, 2020, 7:05 PM

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My personal experience in silicone valley is that work is plentiful. There is everything from small startups hiring "senior" developers with preferred 1 year experience in python all the way up to Tesla hiring AI specialist with Ph.d and 10+ years experience in ML and AI. All of my friends were hired straight out of college with their B.S.

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Oh, I just read the original question though.

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Best bet IMO freelance is web development. Some of my students in high school have been compensated for front end and backend dev.

Most areas of web dev do not really require a degree, MAYBE something with Django might be an option?

deep flicker Apr 13, 2020, 7:12 PM

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@clear sonnet getting someone to pay you with no experience is a difficult task.
@neon moat If you are in an area with a lot of job openings, you may score an internship without actual experience or big projects to show off.

clear sleet Apr 13, 2020, 7:29 PM

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Can you get a job with python being the only programming language you know?

gilded valley Apr 13, 2020, 7:33 PM

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Probably. It'd be easier if you knew others though, mainly HTML/CSS/JS

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and getting a job depends on more than programming languages

weary forge Apr 13, 2020, 7:36 PM

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@clear sleet idk if that meme is still relevant but in general your next stepping stone can be java

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for earning those PHAT STACKZZZZ $$$$$

clear sonnet Apr 13, 2020, 8:20 PM

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@neon moat well I do have a couple of python and other languages projects, on my github page (it would be awesome if you would share your opinion on those), and I'm currently building my blog/website, that will also be on github. I also have experience with web exploitation(played some boxes on hack the box), yet I'm not sure how I can certify that.

Anyways, the original question would've been: what sites/places did you do freelancing on and what were your experiences with it?

bronze gazelle Apr 13, 2020, 8:42 PM

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what the heck is differntiable programming

tired igloo Apr 13, 2020, 9:20 PM

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@placid narwhalHelo

nocturne snow Apr 13, 2020, 10:52 PM

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quick question: would skill certifications from hackerrank and other places be worth the effort?

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datacamp, etc...

white karma Apr 13, 2020, 11:00 PM

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I think showing your contributions to projects is more worth your time

nocturne snow Apr 13, 2020, 11:00 PM

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so, like, look for open-source projects to help with?

white karma Apr 13, 2020, 11:01 PM

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That’s the idea

nocturne snow Apr 13, 2020, 11:01 PM

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also, how would ya go about showing it off?

white karma Apr 13, 2020, 11:01 PM

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Github

nocturne snow Apr 13, 2020, 11:02 PM

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thanks 🙂

marsh wind Apr 13, 2020, 11:50 PM

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And in your CV ofc

placid narwhal Apr 14, 2020, 12:01 AM

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@tired igloo hello

burnt tiger Apr 14, 2020, 12:36 AM

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@nocturne snow You typically would link to your GitHub page in your Resume/CV, and then have a dedicated "Projects" section to summarize your involvement in particularly significant contributions.

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Mine is slightly dated, I have some updating to do when I get around to it. But if you want to get an idea for the format, here's mine as a rough example:

📎 unknown.png

torpid bolt Apr 14, 2020, 7:33 AM

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Neat

#

I always find it hard to maintain such cv/personal info pages

marsh wind Apr 14, 2020, 7:34 AM

#

hehe definitely not something to fit on a one-page CV 🙂

#

but nice

torpid bolt Apr 14, 2020, 7:35 AM

#

But it's a good habit to do so on a regular basis

#

(also it's fine if your cv is a few pages long after a few years of xp, junior should definitly fit on one page though)

nocturne snow Apr 14, 2020, 9:00 AM

#

Just accepted my offer of admissions for MSc Analytics at UChicago, hyped! 🙂

charred summit Apr 14, 2020, 11:57 AM

#

Mine is slightly dated, I have some updating to do when I get around to it. But if you want to get an idea for the format, here's mine as a rough example:
@burnt tiger

Is there any blog or writeup about how you had found those bugs?

placid narwhal Apr 14, 2020, 2:01 PM

#

Congrats @nocturne snow

shadow moss Apr 14, 2020, 2:03 PM

#

Depending but no more two or three page CV

#

After that, it becomes awful to read

burnt tiger Apr 14, 2020, 5:58 PM

#

@charred summit

Is there any blog or writeup about how you had found those bugs?

Sorry, I haven't really done any blogs or writeups about my CPython development endeavors. I've considered doing something like that, but I've never really gotten into blogging. The tl;dr though is that I just regularly look around on bugs.python.org for issues to solve. I started off with more trivial ones and gradually moved up in complexity as I became more familiar with the internal parts of Python's standard library. I primarily contribute to asyncio, concurrent.futures, and the documentation in various areas.

#

Yeah, I agree with 2-3 page CV. The above section was substantially large though because CPython has been my primary source of relevant experience. It also helps that all of my contributions are publically visible, so to verify, the reader can simply click on the "GitHub PR" links.

buoyant vapor Apr 14, 2020, 6:03 PM

#

@burnt tiger, why not just put a github CV that has a online version and an export ready/print version that is auto updated as you mark up the things you do, in this case fix PRs in python?

burnt tiger Apr 14, 2020, 6:05 PM

#

@buoyant vapor Mostly because I don't want it to include absolutely everything I've done. I write manual summaries instead of having an auto-generated one because not every contribution is equally substantial. But I've considered moving it to pages.github.com.

#

There are actually some recent changes I made that would probably replace one or two of the above, I just haven't updated it too recently

#

If they're curious about all of the contributions I made, they can click of the "35+ PRs" link, which includes every PR of mine that's been merged into CPython

#

That one is automatically updated since it's a query for GitHub's search engine

cursive tundra Apr 14, 2020, 9:45 PM

#

Hello, I'm a self taught python developer. I'm currently a high school student and want to get a remote freelance job. What would be the ideal platform for that? What kind of credentials would I need.

marsh wind Apr 14, 2020, 9:50 PM

#

check fiverr and upwork

cursive tundra Apr 14, 2020, 9:58 PM

#

tnks

jaunty pendant Apr 15, 2020, 5:19 AM

#

Hey guys! Just joined the server so I'm not sure if this is the appropriate channel to ask this in but here goes: I just spent the last 3 months working my way through No Starch Press' "Python Crash Course". Great stuff, I learned a lot, and I'm excited build on that knowledge. My goal is to get a job in development (not sure what field yet) early next year.

#

Based on what I learned, I would like to build more knowledge on the requests library and using it to scrape data. Plots were also fun.

#

Does anyone have a book they can recommend to me that goes more in-depth with requests and related libraries? I've found a couple but they mostly use urllib. If not, then any book that you believe will provide me with diverse and practical knowledge. I'm mostly interested in establishing a solid and well-rounded foundation in programming.

vapid jay Apr 15, 2020, 9:12 AM

#

to be honest just try to emulate things that u do on the browser with requests

#

i learned requests by logging into websites like spotify and things like that with requests

#

and slowly figured out uhow things worked

woven prawn Apr 15, 2020, 1:09 PM

#

To do scraping realistically you need the help with anti-captcha systems and proxy-pools and something to emulate real user behavior like selenium. Anti-captcha usually involves either machine learning or sending the captcha off to some click farm for humans to solve, whose workers are paid pennies to work long hours; proxy-pools can involve ethically questionable things when you want to go cheap, the IPs might come from botnets; emulating real user behavior is also very ethically questionable as what you are doing is deception.

#

TBH if anyone wants data it should only come from official data APIs.

jaunty pendant Apr 15, 2020, 4:04 PM

#

@vapid jay That definitely sounds like some good exercises, and it's also what I'm most interested in learning to do: Login to sites. I'll be practicing this for sure.

@woven prawn I get the moral standpoint behind it, but I'm not concerning myself with that at this phase. I'm just trying to educate myself and have the knowledge to use it if I need to.

vapid jay Apr 15, 2020, 4:09 PM

#

If you're going to scrape or crawl websites you should check their terms of use first to make sure they don't prohibit web crawling with bots. iirc this server typically doesn't suggest that type of practice because most sites try to not allow bots to interact with their site, and that's why many have public APIs or similar

charred summit Apr 15, 2020, 4:19 PM

#

@jaunty pendant About the books, there is no such book that covers only 'requests module'.
However regarding scraping, I have done it and from my experience urrlib and requests are mostly blocked, the only good thing to use while they are blocked is pycurl, it's a python version of curl.
But I also came across sites that block urllib + requests + pycurl + proxies + user agents.
Also have look here: https://github.com/antoinevastel/fpscanner
Tools like this prevent many types of scanning, I found this out when I came across Facebook, I think the only way to pass their AI is to create something from scratch and not use the tools that everyone knows about.

GitHub

antoinevastel/fpscanner

Contribute to antoinevastel/fpscanner development by creating an account on GitHub.

little reef Apr 16, 2020, 3:14 AM

#

If the site is being blocked, I advise using things like selenium, then passing the page_source to bs4

left storm Apr 16, 2020, 9:45 AM

#

hey guys

#

is it okay to use those website builder

#

to make a portfolio?

indigo sleet Apr 16, 2020, 9:48 AM

#

Only if you intend your portfolio to show that you know how to work with those website builders

#

Since they don't show any actual HTML/CSS skills

left storm Apr 16, 2020, 9:53 AM

#

but

#

what if i just want to display my other projects

#

i got 2 projects website where i did my own css/bootstrap

#

4 others that id like to display

vapid jay Apr 16, 2020, 10:25 AM

#

run

sick mist Apr 16, 2020, 1:24 PM

#

@left storm if what you want to demonstrate isn't "building websites" then yes it's fine

left storm Apr 16, 2020, 1:24 PM

#

cool

viscid remnant Apr 16, 2020, 2:42 PM

#

hi

#

if i want to start learning python as a brand new beginner with no previous knowledge to build a site like algoexperts then whats the best course i should start with

sick mist Apr 16, 2020, 3:17 PM

#

what is exactly your goal? to make a living selling quiz websites?

#

or participating in quiz

#

I guess you don't really want to build something like algoexpert?

#

@viscid remnant ^

zenith inlet Apr 16, 2020, 5:59 PM

#

python

#

at least for robotics

#

look up opencv

vapid jay Apr 16, 2020, 6:00 PM

#

ok

zenith inlet Apr 16, 2020, 6:01 PM

#

js is useful for website frontends

zenith inlet Apr 16, 2020, 6:30 PM

#

you can do discord bots in either

#

you should probably learn both if you want to do stuff with web

grim urchin Apr 16, 2020, 6:55 PM

#

JavaScript is crazy slow and insecure

#

Does anybody use it for robotics? As more than just a gimmick

zenith inlet Apr 16, 2020, 6:58 PM

#

i know there are microcontroller js images, and i'm pretty sure there are probably EV3 brick JS packages since you can boot debian on those

grim urchin Apr 16, 2020, 6:59 PM

#

Yeah, it's possible. But why? JS is not meant for something like that

vapid jay Apr 16, 2020, 7:25 PM

#

Python FTW

shy quail Apr 17, 2020, 12:40 AM

#

Anyone willing to help me improve my cv?
https://www.resume.com/share/asenmarikostenliev

shy quail Apr 17, 2020, 12:59 AM

#

yeah masters is a year and a half

#

in my country all masters are like that unless u study something like medicine where you dont have bachlor you have 6 years straight to masters

#

BTW I used aws a bit did some migration from do>aws with some easy stuff like database migration ec2 auto scaling load balancers and basic monitoring is it worth putting aws in my resume when i have so little skill of it?

gilded valley Apr 17, 2020, 1:03 AM

#

@shy quail Where are you looking to apply?

shy quail Apr 17, 2020, 1:04 AM

#

@gilded valley everywhere 🙂

gilded valley Apr 17, 2020, 1:05 AM

#

What country?

shy quail Apr 17, 2020, 1:06 AM

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@gilded valley bulgaria mostly

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my cv was fancier before should i switch back to it?

📎 unknown.png

gilded valley Apr 17, 2020, 1:10 AM

#

There's a lot of things I could suggest with formatting. Firstly, I'd reccomend against using an online tool; doing it in word or google docs isn't hard. Secondly, you should use bullet points everywhere, and split them into columns where applicable (such as with skills). Thirdly, keep it to 1 page if possible; you're summary is probably too long.

In terms of content, I think your experience should be more prominent than it is. You should break down your previous jobs into bullets, with each bullet having a meaningful point. In general, its best if they start with a verb. For example, you could change Worked on several projects using various PHP frameworks. to Developed full stack Laravel, Symfony, and Cake PHP applications for clients in a range of markets (or some other bollocks, tie it into the job as much as you reasonably can). Wherever possible, you should give hard numbers for your contribution - e.g Used Grafana to identify performance bottlenecks, bringing performance up 60% (that might not be a perfect example, I'm not too familiar with the devops world)

#

Most of that advice is advice I've been given as a student from random people at relatively big corporations in the UK. It might not be applicable to to Bulgaria I guess, but I get the impression its pretty universal stuff

#

Also, your links shouldn't have https:// in them, and you should get better links for your linkedin and github

shy quail Apr 17, 2020, 1:17 AM

#

quick question I have a job 01/02/2020-30/04/2020 should I list it?

#

also guys how to formulate the following?
managed office and server (we had server room) networks?

gilded valley Apr 17, 2020, 1:19 AM

#

If you'd be happy to talk about it in a job interview, then I'd say put it on there

#

if you'd prefer not to talk about it, don't include it

shy quail Apr 17, 2020, 1:21 AM

#

fuck this platform has update and now cant put my links anywhere

#

do u know any good platform for free cv that i can share online?

shy quail Apr 17, 2020, 1:49 AM

#

is this better guys
https://resume.io/r/GCYht6gZZ

Asen Marikostenliev – DevOps

Powered by Resume.io

shadow moss Apr 17, 2020, 1:51 AM

#

Do you not have word?

radiant moon Apr 17, 2020, 1:51 AM

#

plain text, baby

shadow moss Apr 17, 2020, 1:51 AM

#

And don’t link your Facebook, or Facebook group

shy quail Apr 17, 2020, 1:52 AM

#

why most of the people that interview me

#

are in my facebook group

#

i have almost all of devops of my country in it

#

im quite active there answering technical questions and posting different blogs ive read and others should read too
people like my group like all ceo/cto that i had are in this group

shadow moss Apr 17, 2020, 1:55 AM

#

Didn’t realize how tiny Bulgaria was

shy quail Apr 17, 2020, 1:55 AM

#

but sure i will delete facebook but i think the group is pretty nice to have

#

its 7 milion people

#

and most of them arent IT

#

so i have like 95+% of devops people in my group

shadow moss Apr 17, 2020, 1:56 AM

#

And two pages for tiny amount of data is annoying

shy quail Apr 17, 2020, 1:56 AM

#

tried to shorten it

#

but really can't

shadow moss Apr 17, 2020, 1:57 AM

#

Not sure about your country

#

But here your profile is useless fluff on resume

#

So there is whole section that can be deleted

shy quail Apr 17, 2020, 1:58 AM

#

well i tried without summary

#

some firms rejected my cv because it had no summary

#

so i had to put up some bullshit story

shadow moss Apr 17, 2020, 1:58 AM

#

That stuff goes into cover letter if they ask

gilded valley Apr 17, 2020, 1:58 AM

#

Yeah. The summary contains 0 useful information

#

If you need one. Keep it to 2/3 lines

shadow moss Apr 17, 2020, 1:59 AM

#

Again, maybe cultural

shy quail Apr 17, 2020, 1:59 AM

#

tbh some pretty big companies invited me so i guess it doesnt matter that much but if you guys are willing to give me some suggestions im all ears

gilded valley Apr 17, 2020, 1:59 AM

#

Well. I'm no culture is that useful information, but it might be required/expectedin Bulgaria, yeah

shadow moss Apr 17, 2020, 2:00 AM

#

Which companies?

shy quail Apr 17, 2020, 2:00 AM

#

amazon google

#

mariadb

shadow moss Apr 17, 2020, 2:01 AM

#

Googling

#

So what I thought, EU

#

So I’m not sure where their European operations are, but I’d ask around. I’ve dealt with our UK branch which is open for EU talent, still takes on Western European flair

shy quail Apr 17, 2020, 2:03 AM

#

this is the euro standart in EU that your cv must follow

📎 europass-cv-donato-formica-eng-hotel-1-638.png

shadow moss Apr 17, 2020, 2:04 AM

#

So I’d leave it to my Europeans members who are likely mostly asleep for feedback

#

Considering it’s 0200UTC

#

EU really has a standard including picture?

gilded valley Apr 17, 2020, 2:05 AM

#

I'm UK based. That's definitely not standard here

shadow moss Apr 17, 2020, 2:05 AM

#

I mean I get discrimination laws are not Us but if so, damn guys

shy quail Apr 17, 2020, 2:06 AM

#

ok in most EU countries they require me my cv to follow europass

shadow moss Apr 17, 2020, 2:06 AM

#

I didn’t think so

#

It’s tiny in UK

#

And yea, I don’t disclose

#

It’s not technology company

#

No but I’ve dealt with European ops before, in particular Google because our CTO thinks it’s 2009 and Google is hip so he threw us on GSuite and GCP to much screaming

#

And somehow I’m responsible for some tiny UK application that I’m trying to move to GCP, unsuccessfully

gilded valley Apr 17, 2020, 2:11 AM

#

The structure of this CV seems to be roughly standard for the UK at least. Professional profile still seems longer than what I've been told is best elsewhere. You should also make sure your CV plays nicely with automated systems that pull info out. IIRC you can check at like indeed.com or somewhere similar

📎 Programmer_CV_page-1.png

shy quail Apr 17, 2020, 2:13 AM

#

@shadow moss do u need help with gcp migration?

shadow moss Apr 17, 2020, 2:14 AM

#

Nope because it’s about to be not my problem and I have zero interest in learning GCP

shy quail Apr 17, 2020, 2:15 AM

#

Well if you change your mind you can tell me what you want to achieve and i can tell you where to "click" gcp is pretty simple

shadow moss Apr 17, 2020, 2:15 AM

#

What’s click?

#

Is that thing you do with a mouse?

shy quail Apr 17, 2020, 2:15 AM

#

yeah

shadow moss Apr 17, 2020, 2:16 AM

#

We don’t do that, python or Powershell (preferred)

shy quail Apr 17, 2020, 2:17 AM

#

well if you have to write python script using gcp api let me know 😉
i can help whenever u decide hit me up 🙂

shadow moss Apr 17, 2020, 2:18 AM

#

Oh, they have python library for management API?

shy quail Apr 17, 2020, 2:19 AM

#

yes

shadow moss Apr 17, 2020, 2:19 AM

#

Link?

shy quail Apr 17, 2020, 2:19 AM

#

https://cloud.google.com/compute/docs/tutorials/python-guide

#

is this helpful to you?

shadow moss Apr 17, 2020, 2:21 AM

#

Yes and no

shy quail Apr 17, 2020, 2:21 AM

#

https://cloud.google.com/compute/docs/reference/rest/v1

#

this can help u as well

shadow moss Apr 17, 2020, 2:22 AM

#

It’s compute engine, it’s Wrapper around API with JSOn mess and this is why they are in 3rd place

shy quail Apr 17, 2020, 2:23 AM

#

you click on method then u click on python and can check the code

shadow moss Apr 17, 2020, 2:24 AM

#

If you want, I can discuss this in OT room but I severely dislike GCP and not spending another second talking about it in here.

shy quail Apr 17, 2020, 2:24 AM

#

also everything you do via web interface it shows u the rest and cli equivalent below so you can just click them with mouse once then copy the rest request and implement it in your own code

#

sure we can go wherever you want

little prairie Apr 17, 2020, 2:27 AM

#

Anyone else get their Upwork account randomly suspended today for no reason?

vapid jay Apr 17, 2020, 7:46 AM

#

yert

marsh wind Apr 17, 2020, 10:03 AM

#

EU really has a standard including picture?
@shadow moss depends on country

#

in France for th most part your CV goes to trash bin if there is no picture

#

I am not a big fan of Europass, never saw it required too.
Myself I use a modified LaTeX template to build my CV

sick mist Apr 17, 2020, 10:10 AM

#

I think the point of europass is to ensure you have all the expected fields filled-in, with a common way of expressing them, such as languages mastery

#

for me that's the only thing that I see consistently in europass that makes it useful, otherwise I'm fine with whatever professional template candidates are using

#

about the picture, I agree with @marsh wind that many companies will be hesitant to give an interview to someone who's not putting their picture on the CV, which is ridiculous since you'll see the person's face during the interview anyway

#

(I mean it's ridiculous not to give these people an interview due to the lack of picture)

marsh wind Apr 17, 2020, 10:13 AM

#

well I think picture thing is more important for young grads

#

or people with less exp

sick mist Apr 17, 2020, 10:13 AM

#

I'm curious, why would it?

marsh wind Apr 17, 2020, 10:17 AM

#

well there are plenty of young grads and people with little to no experinece

#

so they have to try stand out of the crowd and have perfect lookijng CV

#

and seasoned devs/whoever are valued and judged for their experience

#

and they are fewer

sick mist Apr 17, 2020, 10:18 AM

#

yes, but does that mean that your face should be a factor of hire?

marsh wind Apr 17, 2020, 10:19 AM

#

(I mean it's ridiculous not to give these people an interview due to the lack of picture)
no, it should not and I also find this ridiculous

#

but that is the reality

#

sadly

opal perch Apr 17, 2020, 11:06 AM

#

Unfortunately that's the standard for a lot of european countries, some countries have started putting policies against it, but quite often your cv will just be insta rejected if it doesn't have a picture in certain countries

marsh wind Apr 17, 2020, 11:08 AM

#

I would never put any photo on my cv. If the company requires it, well, they wont receive my cv then
@vapid jay well it is a culture thing. Either you do it or you limit yourself a lot. And when someone look for first job probably they probably can't afford to be picky

#

I think we had a brief talk with @torpid bolt about it and he did mention that when you move towards more senior level it starts to matter much less

#

but for junior usually you have little choice

#

as I understand this is engrained in local HR/recruiters

#

so it might not be as easy to change

#

although with time it would come I guess

#

which one is that?

#

lucky for you then 🙂

solid berry Apr 17, 2020, 11:39 AM

#

n order to learn programming, in any field or in general
do u need mandatory college/uni?, or does anyone know that studying at home really does pay off eventually?

gilded valley Apr 17, 2020, 11:52 AM

#

No you don't need to go to uni to learn to program. It might be the easiest path into a job with it though. In the pins of #career-advice it's a reddit post of a guy who self taught

solid berry Apr 17, 2020, 12:07 PM

#

thanks!

vale bear Apr 17, 2020, 12:37 PM

#

I’m self taught and the only thing that’s hard to get is a FAANG job

#

If you can get an entry level job that’s the best to help focus your learning

vapid jay Apr 17, 2020, 12:59 PM

#

I'm in a predicament.. I'm writing some code that can serve as a huge business advantage, but the team I'm writing it for is full of junior people in the DS field and I'm worried they might steal code and try to replicate this elsewhere

#

especially since some of them are contractors..

#

am I worried for nothing.. what's the right thing to do here

#

(I'm not part of this team, their manager asked me to help guide them and solve a problem)

sick mist Apr 17, 2020, 1:01 PM

#

you're worried that junior devs might steal code and run a business out of it?

vapid jay Apr 17, 2020, 1:01 PM

#

I'm worried they might steal it and replicate it at another company

sick mist Apr 17, 2020, 1:02 PM

#

good for them if they can pull this off, because there's a good deal of work between an idea/ a code and a business

#

well, unless another company is exactly in the same market segment then it won't happen

vapid jay Apr 17, 2020, 1:03 PM

#

hmm that's true.. come to think of it, they can't say they have expertise in this field and all they would have is some code

sick mist Apr 17, 2020, 1:03 PM

#

otherwise, obviously if you hire someone who already worked on X, you assume that they might be good at doing X, so even if they don't steal the code, just jumping company will give the "new" company an advantage since they won't have to train them to do X

#

yep

#

usually products are the result of team work between business analysis, devs, ops, marketing, etc

#

so they might run with the knowledge, they might even take the code, but it does not mean the "new" company will automatically insert their code in a blank shell et voilà

wind hinge Apr 17, 2020, 1:05 PM

#

Hey guys, lets say i have learned some things for beginners, but i need expiriance, how i can find it xD
Basically no one wont hire me without expiriance but i need to get it on working with real projects. Any advice?

vapid jay Apr 17, 2020, 1:05 PM

#

that's true.. now I see it because you tell me.. this is a very niche area and specific application

sick mist Apr 17, 2020, 1:06 PM

#

yeah, most of the time, when you build a product, it fills a need in a niche, and taking the codebase won't take the business

#

also, it would be ignoring the fact that competitors reverse engineer each other's stack, so even without the code, your ideas and concepts get "borrowed" by your competitors quite often 🙂

#

and if you work in a field where algorithms and code are very important (spoiler: unless it's the google ranking algo, nobody cares) most of the time you have NDAs and stuff like that, to scare off people from taking copies of code they had access to with them when they leave

vapid jay Apr 17, 2020, 1:10 PM

#

true true.. guess that's the reason why big companies make their most essential code cryptic.. or run on a framework that's only available internally

sick mist Apr 17, 2020, 1:11 PM

#

all contracts mention that you shouldn't take code with you nor transmit it to 3rd parties

vapid jay Apr 17, 2020, 1:11 PM

#

people have phones and stuff.. they can always reproduce some aspect if they wanted to

sick mist Apr 17, 2020, 1:12 PM

#

but it's hard to enforce, since you need to prove it happened, etc

#

it's a battle nobody wins (except patent/copyright lawyers I guess)

indigo sleet Apr 17, 2020, 1:12 PM

#

Companies have won before

sick mist Apr 17, 2020, 1:13 PM

#

yep, but how much effort goes into "winning" those trials vs putting the money in innovation?

#

it's a pyrric victory

indigo sleet Apr 17, 2020, 1:13 PM

#

A lot

#

I mean some companies only make money because of lawsuits

#

Oracle for example

sick mist Apr 17, 2020, 1:14 PM

#

yeah, but I don't think @vapid jay works for oracle

#

😄

vapid jay Apr 17, 2020, 1:14 PM

#

hahaha

indigo sleet Apr 17, 2020, 1:14 PM

#

He might, someday

#

Haha

vapid jay Apr 17, 2020, 1:14 PM

#

I once saw a meme with Oracle's org chart..

sick mist Apr 17, 2020, 1:14 PM

#

well, I'm an open-source advocate, so I stand by the fact that business is much more than code and ideas, but execution

#

and in the facts, that's also what I witnessed

indigo sleet Apr 17, 2020, 1:15 PM

#

I agree but you still need to beat the cheap Indian code farms

#

So at least going closed source until launch is a good idea

sick mist Apr 17, 2020, 1:15 PM

#

well, if I can't be better than a code farm, maybe I don't deserve to be successful

#

I get this comment very often

#

"we could outsource to cheaper providers"

#

my answer is always "yeah, please go ahead"

indigo sleet Apr 17, 2020, 1:16 PM

#

It's not a great look if some other company launches the service you're working on at half the cost of what you were planning

#

It's not even a matter of competing at that point

vapid jay Apr 17, 2020, 1:16 PM

#

typical programming paradigm.. is code+problem = solution.. DS is more like Code + Solution = Pattern..

#

code is more modular, and applications more common

sick mist Apr 17, 2020, 1:19 PM

#

I'm currently working on a software project that I intend to make commercial, I gave the idea of making it closed source some thoughts for a solid 5 min, until I rememberd that I knew my customers, I knew their needs, because I've been working in this field for 20 years, so I'll make it open source and even live-stream the development 😄

shadow moss Apr 17, 2020, 1:19 PM

#

@marsh wind 😕

sick mist Apr 17, 2020, 1:20 PM

#

because if you don't understand what it does, even with the source and even with my explanations, you won't be able to sell it to customers, because you'll miss the selling points

shadow moss Apr 17, 2020, 1:20 PM

#

I mean you can open source with MIT which means you can close the source whenever

vapid jay Apr 17, 2020, 1:20 PM

#

hmm.. I'm using a db that's open source, and I'm replicating the enterprise features they have through something else..

#

on one hand, I want their company to thrive so they continue their development.. on the other hand, I'm able to do this without their license

#

(this is a different problem than the first)

sick mist Apr 17, 2020, 1:21 PM

#

@shadow moss yes, but why would I close the source? that's not my ethics

#

@vapid jay well, it sure costs you some effort to replicate those features, it might not be the best deal you're getting here

shut geyser Apr 17, 2020, 1:22 PM

#

"we could outsource to cheaper providers"

#

this is how my company lose clients

shadow moss Apr 17, 2020, 1:22 PM

#

I work for megacorp, we don’t run our own frameworks for security most of the time, likely whoever initially developed didn’t know any better

shut geyser Apr 17, 2020, 1:22 PM

#

tbh they're expensive and not that much added value

sick mist Apr 17, 2020, 1:24 PM

#

@shut geyser usually "cheaper" proiders usually turn into "more expensive", since they bill you for something half-baked, you lose some business since your product does not work as expected, then you still need to get back the "expensive" providers to fix it

shadow moss Apr 17, 2020, 1:24 PM

#

Why open source your commercial product? Do your clients want the source code?

shut geyser Apr 17, 2020, 1:24 PM

#

that's the standard in my industry afaik

sick mist Apr 17, 2020, 1:25 PM

#

@shadow moss because I've learned from reading source code from other products, so that's my way of giving back to the community 🙂

#

as I said, if you can take my code, and run a better alternative to mine, then you deserve your success 👍

#

(but then at least please send your improvements upstream)

shadow moss Apr 17, 2020, 1:26 PM

#

Cool I guess

indigo sleet Apr 17, 2020, 1:27 PM

#

Unless your project is a service based product, I can't see that working extremely well unless you get very lucky

sick mist Apr 17, 2020, 1:29 PM

#

it's not really a service, but while the product itself is quite simple, it takes a great deal of effort to make it run, so I already know that people will prefer me to run it for them rather than deploy it on their premises

vale bear Apr 17, 2020, 1:29 PM

#

It’s not an NDA that protects business it’s the fact that the company employs people under contract, even consultants, and include work made for hire clauses and assignment of intellectual property etc etc

sick mist Apr 17, 2020, 1:30 PM

#

@vale bear sure, but you can't force people to forget what they saw when they leave either. If you've built let's say a CRM for gym clubs, and you get hired by a company who needs a CRM for pottery clubs, it's hard to enforce anything legally

sick mist Apr 17, 2020, 2:12 PM

#

maybe "megacorp" is the name of the company 😺

marsh wind Apr 17, 2020, 3:33 PM

#

he said:

It’s tiny in UK
perhaps meant that it is US megacorp with tiny office in UK

shadow moss Apr 17, 2020, 5:05 PM

#

@vapid jay what Lossberg said

#

It's large US megacorp

#

our office in UK/Ireland/Spain are tiny comparatively

#

outside the US, our biggest office is India

wind hinge Apr 17, 2020, 5:11 PM

#

any uni giving free courses for python?

opal perch Apr 17, 2020, 5:42 PM

#

yea loads, check edx

#

https://www.edx.org/course?search_query=python

edX

Courses

vapid jay Apr 17, 2020, 8:34 PM

#

How important is the impression from portfolio page ? Im a back end dude i mean im moving toward front end and im working on some broken grid web page , it turns out ill have to start over again due to problems with responsive part.

#

Now it took me like 10 days already , is this really worth it trying to create something unique or i could just dish out someting clean and responsive and still have good time with it

sick mist Apr 17, 2020, 8:35 PM

#

do you want to show off your front-end skills, or your back-end skills?

#

if you want to show that you can be a good front dev, then it's quite important to have something that's at least clean and works well

#

and of course, if you can come up with something very unique and impressive, it's as many bonus points on your resume

vapid jay Apr 17, 2020, 8:44 PM

#

@sick mist you got a job for me - kinda need one - plz - if I ask really nice

sick mist Apr 17, 2020, 8:51 PM

#

err, I'd like to but my team is complete right now 😅

#

mostly Python, and a bit of JS for the frontends, like everyone here I think 🙂

#

ah, mostly flask + sqlalchemy

#

and pandas, lots of pandas

#

I used to do lots of vanilla vuejs, but I saw quasar and now I'm hooked

#

nah, we're a small team, so we can't really keep up with react's shenanigans 😅

#

I'm not saying I didn't lose my temper a few times, but globally it's very pleasant to use

#

that's also my feeling, yes

#

yeah, frameworks with mixed markup and logic reminds me too much of my PHP years 😅

#

recently had to turn down a contract work, because the customer confused python and php, and it was actually a php job 😮

#

however, my experience predates the modern php frameworks, so maybe these days my feelings about it would be less extreme 🙂

#

never had to use it myself, usually my components are simple enough 🙂

#

but I presume quasar people deal with it on a daily basis, that's why I'm grateful 🙏

#

apart from the stylistic change, is there a real advantage in using this rather than the object-api style?

#

well, luckily courses on vuemaster.com are still free this week

#

https://www.vuemastery.com/courses/vue-3-essentials/why-the-composition-api/

vue-mastery

Why the Composition API - Vue 3 Essentials | Vue Mastery

The killer feature of Vue 3 is the Composition API, but why exactly is it needed and what problems does it solve for us?

#

I hope we can find a good answer there 😅

#

ah

#

agree, I hate when people want to change something that works perfectly well without any killer feature

#

(besides, "but it's better")

#

(moving to DM, I think we've derailed this topic enough, sorry about this, mods 😓 )

vapid jay Apr 17, 2020, 9:43 PM

#

@sick mist if you need pandas, I'm your guy

charred summit Apr 17, 2020, 11:13 PM

#

Hey fellas!

I have read 3 books regarding python so far & I just finished 'learning python by Mark Lutz', It was a neat book and covered concepts about python internals, but as I began to create projects, I just find problem solving very hard so I don't want to continue reading books, I have already repeated a hell of things and I don't wanna keep on repeating things.
This is why I want to just spend at least 4 months building stuff, contributing to other projects and solving challenges.

But I also thought that if I am going for Full-Stack Dev + security analysis + devops; I need to cover some concepts of Operating Systems, I just feel its important, I have these books so far:

Operating Systems Internals and Design Principles, 9th Global Edition
Computer Networking - A Top-Down Approach

So what I am asking is should I go through these or I don't need to understand memory management & TCP/IP for WebDev, web security analysis and devops?

#

I don't want to waste time on some book (again), I would like to hear from someone with experience.

formal belfry Apr 17, 2020, 11:55 PM

#

@charred summit It depends on what you are trying to achieve. Personally I prefer the approach of jumping into a project and learning what I need to know on the go. Information retention is also much less when it isn't applied.

#

Most likely you will only ever need to thoroughly understand one or two of the options you listed throught your time programming.

charred summit Apr 18, 2020, 12:01 AM

#

Most likely you will only ever need to thoroughly understand one or two of the options you listed throught your time programming.
@formal belfry Yeah true, I have already covered plenty of topics regarding networking and web security by going through CTFs and creating stuff to automate things; but then again I can't call them a skill-set because I cannot categorise what I have learned.
I am not too bad in solving challenges but I am talking about long-term goals here, so I have to choose carefully and not waste time.

formal belfry Apr 18, 2020, 12:03 AM

#

@charred summit What's your end goal?

#

Employment? If so, in which sector?

charred summit Apr 18, 2020, 12:06 AM

#

End goal is becoming full-stack dev, I want to cover front-end, back-end, deployment and everything else inside-out.

#

I have already covered them but not throughly

formal belfry Apr 18, 2020, 12:07 AM

#

I see. Have you created any projects?

#

Games/websites/apps?

charred summit Apr 18, 2020, 12:09 AM

#

I am working on 5 of em as we are speaking; and websites, I didn't cover web dev throughly, so I just followed some tuts here and there, that's why I can't categorise things, and before wasting time again, I want to create a safe pathway to follow.

#

I am still working on my python skills

#

those goals are for 2021

formal belfry Apr 18, 2020, 12:11 AM

#

https://github.com/kamranahmedse/developer-roadmap
https://github.com/shovanch/fullstack-web-developer-path
https://github.com/ryanoasis/fullstack-webdev-path

Personally, though, I believe more in practice/experience than following a pathway.

#

Trying stuff out - all kinds.

#

It really widens your mind in a way that a "pathway" doesn't.

charred summit Apr 18, 2020, 12:12 AM

#

So going back to my original question, didn't you cover OSs & networking?

#

thanks for those tho

formal belfry Apr 18, 2020, 12:12 AM

#

Nope. And as a full stack web developer you wouldn't need that at all.

#

If that's the type of full stack you are referring to.

#

Full stack (top-to-bottom - hardware-up) jobs don't exist as far as I know.

#

And wouldn't be viable either.

charred summit Apr 18, 2020, 12:15 AM

#

I am only interested in back-end stuff such as configs and DBS but I wanted to cover front-end and DevOps only for the sake of... one man's job kinda stuff, where I do everything and get paid as if a team did it

formal belfry Apr 18, 2020, 12:16 AM

#

Yeah the jobs may be combined but the pay sure won't be.

#

With regards to the actual work - you will need to know very little about OSes or networking.

charred summit Apr 18, 2020, 12:17 AM

#

that's sad, I think if you do job of 3 person by yourself, you get paid like 3 person did it.

formal belfry Apr 18, 2020, 12:17 AM

#

And there is a difference between understanding how OSes work and being a system administrator.

charred summit Apr 18, 2020, 12:19 AM

#

Nah I don't want to go into depths of things right away, I just want to go for backend, front-end makes me sick

formal belfry Apr 18, 2020, 12:20 AM

#

I see. In that case that wouldn't be a full-stack job.

#

So databases?

#

And sysadmin?

charred summit Apr 18, 2020, 12:21 AM

#

With time, may be I cover those but I know I can't learn everything right away.

#

that's too much

#

I see every word as a lot of months and a lot of sleepless nights 😄

formal belfry Apr 18, 2020, 12:23 AM

#

If you are just starting out I'd suggest exploring before deciding what to focus on.

#

Those 5 projects - they seem like good opportunities to learn all of the aforementioned skills.

charred summit Apr 18, 2020, 12:24 AM

#

What I have just started out is creating bigger projects, I am working on one of them and discussing @ #cybersecurity, and it seems pretty tough but if I get it through it will be a neat cipher.

formal belfry Apr 18, 2020, 12:25 AM

#

Why not practice a different skill with each one - try to build one around a database, another around networking, etc.

charred summit Apr 18, 2020, 12:25 AM

#

right now I only have gists of small portions of code, but I want to create useful things for others as part of building my portfolio

#

Why not practice a different skill with each one - try to build one around a database, another around networking, etc.

That's right I have thought about it, one is around encryption stuff.
another is about system & networking.
another one is about web scraping
another is about working with graphql & facebook

formal belfry Apr 18, 2020, 12:28 AM

#

Sounds great, and if you ever find that you need to dig a little deeper, then I'd suggest reading books on the topic.

charred summit Apr 18, 2020, 12:29 AM

#

thanks for giving time man @formal belfry

formal belfry Apr 18, 2020, 12:30 AM

#

No problem. I hope that was helpful.

vapid jay Apr 18, 2020, 12:31 AM

#

python is definitely my strongest language, but I know a decent amount of vanilla Javascript/React. Which route should I go for web development? I can make user interfaces that use API libraries in React, but I don't know if I should go with Node or Python for backend.

#

like I cant make my own APIs yet

left storm Apr 18, 2020, 1:30 AM

#

Are people allowed to review portfolio?

#

Here

#

I am currently working on my web portfolio and would like feedback preferably from someone who is in the software dev industry

vapid jay Apr 18, 2020, 8:47 AM

#

Yeah sure I’d be happy to help. @left storm

vapid jay Apr 18, 2020, 12:34 PM

#

@vapid jay Take Python. Try to create a simple REST API in Flask. Look at Django for more complex projects and good defaults

scenic token Apr 18, 2020, 2:24 PM

#

Hi, I am about to get a paid internship in germany. Java with Spring Boot.
It will last 3 Months and will be Full-Time'ish (they dont really care about time but results I think).
I am a 5th semester bachelor in CS.
They offer me 800€/month. Is this a good offer or should I try to ask them for a bit more (say 850-900?)? Things to consider when asking, etc?
This would be my first job experience.
Thanks in advance for answers, please @ me

opal perch Apr 18, 2020, 2:25 PM

#

My experience with internships in europe, it depends on the company, some will pay a lot and some will pay less, like I was at a research facility doing python over the summer last year and I was paid minimal compared to if I had gone to a tech company/bank

#

@scenic token

mental hull Apr 18, 2020, 2:26 PM

#

I can't speak from a coding experience, but the hardest part in getting a job is getting experiencing on your cv in the first place. 800 euros is low, but mostly people learn a lot from the experience. @scenic token

scenic token Apr 18, 2020, 2:28 PM

#

in the talk I had with HR she also said me that I will most likely not "produce" much code for them, that most time will be me learning. So yeah, fits to what you said

#

I just want to not get underpaid coz I dont have experience in how much I am worth

#

they want to take me. Can it hurt me to ask for a bit more payment?

vapid jay Apr 18, 2020, 2:36 PM

#

Asking for a bit could ruin your opportunity and overall it shows a lot about you if you tend to ask for more

wind hinge Apr 18, 2020, 2:37 PM

#

Eh i would be happy with 500€ first job, for first job i wont be greedy

#

So i suggest you not to ask for more

#

As well i dont have that much expiriance, but i read abt it so i think its best solution

marsh wind Apr 18, 2020, 3:08 PM

#

@scenic token which part of Germany is that

#

anyway it for someone doing bachelor only it is sounds good

#

like if it would be your final Master internship maybe it would be a bit low

scenic token Apr 18, 2020, 3:10 PM

#

I dont have to do internships for my bachelor

#

it is a free internship I went for

marsh wind Apr 18, 2020, 3:10 PM

#

and if they said:

in the talk I had with HR she also said me that I will most likely not "produce" much code for them, that most time will be me learning.
it sounds like you get both experinece and some OK money

wind hinge Apr 18, 2020, 3:13 PM

#

Eh i am not sure when to apply for internships tho, I dtarted doind this maybe 2 months ago, i started to build some things and work with selenium tbh i dont think its enough, when would be the right time for that?

scenic token Apr 18, 2020, 3:14 PM

#

for me a befriended student asked around as the corp he works for is searching. I sent in the cv and got the internship

wind hinge Apr 18, 2020, 3:17 PM

#

Oh does the same thing is going on with self taught python learners

scenic token Apr 18, 2020, 3:17 PM

#

I think a good way is to think of some small projects you can program, upload them on git and refer to them on your cv

#

maybe have sb look over it

round island Apr 18, 2020, 3:18 PM

#

9S, did you say you started learning 2 mo ago?

scenic token Apr 18, 2020, 3:19 PM

#

and if you get to a talk and they ask you about your programming experience, show them that you are willing to learn, for example jave a current project that teaches you something new

wind hinge Apr 18, 2020, 3:19 PM

#

Yes, but i am kot totaly begginer to coding, like i was using js before with websites so it wasnt so hard for me to learn it

#

Now i am trying to makr some dmall projects

round island Apr 18, 2020, 3:19 PM

#

Yeah 9S, it's always good to apply but you should think about this more seriously.

wind hinge Apr 18, 2020, 3:19 PM

#

Yesterday i used selenium to access the wiki and tkinter to make it as an app with inout and enter button...

round island Apr 18, 2020, 3:20 PM

#

Yes that's nowhere near enough to impress anyone hiring.

wind hinge Apr 18, 2020, 3:20 PM

#

Tho its not so big

#

I want to try now to make poker game

round island Apr 18, 2020, 3:20 PM

#

You need to think bigger, contributing to opensource software

#

that sort of thing

#

Not now obviously, but eventually.

scenic token Apr 18, 2020, 3:21 PM

#

tbh I got an internship with less

round island Apr 18, 2020, 3:21 PM

#

Really?

#

You had a CS degree?

scenic token Apr 18, 2020, 3:21 PM

#

no, currently doing my ba

#

befriended student said the corp he works for was searching

wind hinge Apr 18, 2020, 3:22 PM

#

Can you provide me example of bigger projects, it may be something you have done before or you heard someone did it, i want to creat better pixture abt it

vapid jay Apr 18, 2020, 3:22 PM

#

How should I continue after I've learned the basics??
I'm a bit lost🤯

round island Apr 18, 2020, 3:22 PM

#

For example, making a bug tracker.

#

Contributing to projects on github

scenic token Apr 18, 2020, 3:23 PM

#

at that point doong python for half a year. corp was using java, relearning java since 2 weeks

wind hinge Apr 18, 2020, 3:23 PM

#

Hmm bug tracker that sounds interesting 🤩

#

I am not sure tho how to make it but i will google more about it

round island Apr 18, 2020, 3:23 PM

#

That's something that might look good, you can use the bug tracker to track your progress making the bug tracker for example

#

But there's loads of information out there on complex programs, there's no shortage of that.

vapid jay Apr 18, 2020, 3:25 PM

#

What exactly is github and can I really do smth there I'm such a big noob

#

started yesterday

round island Apr 18, 2020, 3:25 PM

#

SM it's best to look at guides, and get into using terminals.

#

if you're not already.

vapid jay Apr 18, 2020, 3:26 PM

#

okey thx

scenic token Apr 18, 2020, 3:26 PM

#

what I use to teach me new stuff is to think about a small project that uses what I want to learn
an you learn better if you have fun while doing so

#

for example to teach me oop I wrote a small text rpg

wind hinge Apr 18, 2020, 3:27 PM

#

I got suggestion from one developer to post every code in git repository is it good idea? I mean my repository might look bad..?

scenic token Apr 18, 2020, 3:27 PM

#

they will see your progress

wind hinge Apr 18, 2020, 3:28 PM

#

I mean he already suggested me to do algorithm exercises but i am kinda stuck cuz i am not on a same line with math

round island Apr 18, 2020, 3:28 PM

#

It sounds like you know what you need to do.

wind hinge Apr 18, 2020, 3:28 PM

#

~~exercise math more~~ :(((

round island Apr 18, 2020, 3:29 PM

#

Yep, get inspired by people who are really good at coding challenges like

scenic token Apr 18, 2020, 3:29 PM

#

imo math is not that important. logical thinking is important and knowing basics of math

round island Apr 18, 2020, 3:29 PM

#

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGrBHohIgQY

YouTube

William Lin

Winning Google Kickstart Round A 2020 + Facecam

What is Competitive Programming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueNT-w7Oluw

What could be a better start to Google Kickstart 2020 than getting 1st out of over 10k participants?

Contest site: https://codingcompetitions.withgoogle.com/kickstart/round/000000000019ffc7

Unfortu...

▶ Play video

wind hinge Apr 18, 2020, 3:30 PM

#

Logic is but they implent that logic through math and physics

#

And after that make code more efficient

scenic token Apr 18, 2020, 3:30 PM

#

competitive programming is not good for learning programming
there is possibly even a negative correlation

round island Apr 18, 2020, 3:31 PM

#

Well I'm out.

#

See ya.

wind hinge Apr 18, 2020, 3:31 PM

#

Cyaa and thanks for help :D @round island

scenic token Apr 18, 2020, 3:31 PM

#

efficiency is not that important imo. more important is that you write code that can be understood by other programmers and that is easy to generalize

round island Apr 18, 2020, 3:32 PM

#

Ok like, I don't know this for fact, but I can presume that the important thing is you're good at coding.

#

And if you're good at coding challenges

#

You're probably good at coding.

scenic token Apr 18, 2020, 3:32 PM

#

in real world you wont have perfect data all the time - which competitive programming assumes often

#

you are a problem solver, no coder. programming is only your tool

round island Apr 18, 2020, 3:33 PM

#

Sounds like you've seen a lot of youtube videos broseph.

#

No offense.

#

But whatever.

shadow moss Apr 18, 2020, 3:41 PM

#

Depending on interest in internship, asking for more could end up with them just moving on

#

Interns cost money, their output isn’t worth the pay most of the time

#

Reason most companies do them is they are good way to “interview” potential future Jr. Devs for cheap

#

If you work out, hey, future Jr. Dev

#

If you don’t, you leave and it was only 3000 euro loss.

finite pendant Apr 18, 2020, 3:45 PM

#

@scenic token to be fair competitive programming is also problem solving lol

shadow moss Apr 18, 2020, 3:45 PM

#

Time to get more money is when they convert you to Jr. Dev since you come in and should hit ground running quicker then other Jr devs

scenic token Apr 18, 2020, 3:48 PM

#

@scenic token to be fair competitive programming is also problem solving lol
@finite pendant
it sure is, but it often does not account for real world problems like documentation or bad user input, fail saves and so on. The part with negative correlation comes from an interview with a guy who got 2.place in googles competitive programming contest

#

https://youtu.be/F4rykKLcduI

YouTube

Joma Tech

Interview with a Competitive Programmer

Go to https://squarespace.com/jomatech to get a free trial and 10% off your first purchase

Errichto's channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBr_Fu6q9iHYQCh13jmpbrg

► Want to land jobs at Facebook/Google/Microsoft/Amazon? Learn how to do that here:
http://techinterviewpro...

▶ Play video

vapid jay Apr 18, 2020, 4:23 PM

#

Will they fire me for negative productivity?

radiant moon Apr 18, 2020, 4:36 PM

#

I would

opal perch Apr 18, 2020, 6:51 PM

#

why would they keep you if you ahve negative productivity, what would you bring to the company then?

torpid bolt Apr 18, 2020, 9:02 PM

#

if you are actively making your coworkers lose time, for no benefit, then indeed a company will want to get ride of you, but it's not easy (except in extreme cases) to mesure productivity of programmers, so i'm not sure how you determine your productivity to be negative, if your code is so bad that improving it will cost more time than doing it right in the first place, or if you are breaking other's people code (introducing bugs, or just deleting working code), then that certainly counts as negative productivity, but it's rarely so clear cut

radiant moon Apr 18, 2020, 9:35 PM

#

otoh an intern isn't really expected to generate useful code; they're just expected to learn a buncha stuff. So hiring an intern is like an investment. I have no idea how you're supposed to tell if the investment is paying off; I guess you judge the code that they did write as if it were going to go into production

shadow moss Apr 18, 2020, 10:55 PM

#

I know my company sees interns as recruiting investments

#

And programming interns push code that ends up in production but it’s generally minor code or heavily reviewed

#

Thus why output is net negative. They push code but so many other devs have to be involved so they lose work time.

marsh wind Apr 18, 2020, 11:22 PM

#

but they do end up recruited later sometimes?

radiant moon Apr 18, 2020, 11:48 PM

#

in my case, yes. In which case I suppose for every recruiter we hire, we consider their internship -- plus the internships of the 4 or 5 others we didn't hire -- as part of the cost of hiring good people

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 12:00 AM

#

How high is typical hiring cost?

radiant moon Apr 19, 2020, 12:03 AM

#

dunno actually

#

bet it's many many thousands, though

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 12:08 AM

#

I heard once a number around 15k€

#

For a junior - mid position, so for position not requiring much experience

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 12:19 AM

#

Lossberg some do

#

We generally try to match our intern openings with how many expected Jr. slots will open next year. We obviously don’t always get it right but it’s tried.

#

Hiring cost is huge. Time for someone to get the resumes and filter them. Make initial phone call and screen. Send over candidates for review. In person interview, 90 days spin up process and if they don’t work out, start over again.

#

This is why contracting companies are so attractive. Ready to go workforce right there. Not to mention it’s cheap to let them go.

floral obsidian Apr 19, 2020, 4:07 AM

#

i got my first job through a recruiter, i think she got paid commission the equivalent of one month of my salary

#

i've seen referral bonuses around this amount also

#

probably a good proxy for how much hiring costs the company

finite pendant Apr 19, 2020, 9:46 AM

#

@scenic token I understand what you mean there. I already saw that video. I honestly think that many of the problems you dont solve as a competitive programmer are rather easily solvable.

jaunty mist Apr 19, 2020, 10:27 AM

#

Hi

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 11:16 AM

#

hey guys

#

if i got my projects on a web portfolio

#

do i still need to mention in my cv?

floral obsidian Apr 19, 2020, 11:17 AM

#

you definitely should imo

#

make it easy for the person reading your cv

#

they'll probably spend like 10 seconds looking at it

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 11:18 AM

#

if u dont mind are uable to have a look at my portfolio to review?

#

it's okay you dont have to :p trying to get my stuff up and read y to send out by tonight

scenic token Apr 19, 2020, 11:21 AM

#

@marsh wind @radiant moon I once saw a spreadsheet why it is cost-wise better to get apprenticeships rather than search for learned workers.
Apprentices were labeled with a 100k price tag - but I am pretty sure it is very dependant on the job.

#

not the same as internships of course, but as a price comparison

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 11:23 AM

#

Yeah I guess it depends on really many factors

floral obsidian Apr 19, 2020, 11:36 AM

#

@left storm sure i can take a look

tardy stag Apr 19, 2020, 12:02 PM

#

Hi guys, i hope this is the right place for this question. So I've learned Python for a couple of months now and I'm wondering if it is worth getting certificates for starting a career in Python

#

I already have obtained my diploma in application developer.

floral obsidian Apr 19, 2020, 12:21 PM

#

what kind of certificate?

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 12:37 PM

#

usually certificates alone have little value @tardy stag

#

it does depend on the certificate

#

but the rule of thumb is that you prove your knowledge not with certificate but with some exerience

#

i.e. project that showcase your skills

vapid jay Apr 19, 2020, 12:43 PM

#

Hey guys
how long does it take to get some good skills in Python?

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 12:44 PM

#

it depends

#

on 1) how fast you learn 2) how much time you can commit 3) previous experience with other languages 4)etc

vapid jay Apr 19, 2020, 12:49 PM

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I've started 3 days ago and I'm programming 6-7 hours in average
time is flying while programming
But I ask myself when it becomes like speaking a language?
I mean like when can I start with my own projects and stuff like that and how long should I still practice with tutorials and to which point

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 12:54 PM

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the answer is still "depends"
I would probably say that as soon as you have some idea for simple project and idea on how to approach it: start it

vapid jay Apr 19, 2020, 12:54 PM

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ty

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@marsh wind How long did it take you and when did you start?

floral obsidian Apr 19, 2020, 1:05 PM

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Maybe a few years?

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 1:07 PM

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@vapid jay I am kinda not the best person to ask

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I would advice to refer to the pinned post

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https://discordapp.com/channels/267624335836053506/470889390588035082/614161247272960011

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or to someone who were in the similar situation as you are now

tardy stag Apr 19, 2020, 1:22 PM

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@marsh wind Thank you! So instead of getting the certificates it might be better to build some projects showcasing different skills

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 1:28 PM

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yeah

tardy stag Apr 19, 2020, 1:56 PM

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Does anyone have some fun/cool recommendations for me to make? I think im like intermidiate (if that makes any sense) and like a challenge

radiant moon Apr 19, 2020, 4:24 PM

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I once saw a spreadsheet why it is cost-wise better to get apprenticeships rather than search for learned workers.
Apprentices were labeled with a 100k price tag - but I am pretty sure it is very dependant on the job.
@scenic token I wish the US did what Germany did; apprenticeships seem so much better than college

scenic token Apr 19, 2020, 4:33 PM

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@radiant moon uh yeah I am from germany, don't know if other countries also do apprenticeships. The main 4 things I think germany does a better job than america are: higher education system (in germany you can study, get ur bachelor/master for basically free), health system (for most health problems you dont have to pay marginal cost (some euros maybe) if even (also the pharmaceutical economy cant set prices how they like it).
social market economy instead of free market economy
and gun laws.

But lets not get political, sorry

wraith token Apr 19, 2020, 4:52 PM

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if i wanted to try and apply Python for business intelligence/business analyst roles - what sort of thing should i be learning in Python? the data science related stuff?

mortal hearth Apr 19, 2020, 4:58 PM

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yes

opal perch Apr 19, 2020, 5:14 PM

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@radiant moon The thing with apprenticeships, its much harder to climb into higher positions as opposed to a uni degree, at least the starting point is often lower with apprenticeship

radiant moon Apr 19, 2020, 5:14 PM

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really?

gilded valley Apr 19, 2020, 5:15 PM

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The system of apprenticeships is very different to how it is in somewhere like the UK. Much more ingrained into the work culture and more common

radiant moon Apr 19, 2020, 5:15 PM

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that's disappointing

gilded valley Apr 19, 2020, 5:15 PM

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the UK though has a lot of really shitty apprenticeships

radiant moon Apr 19, 2020, 5:15 PM

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as far as I know, we doin't have them at all in the US

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some jobs -- like mine -- will hire interns but that's just for six months or so

gilded valley Apr 19, 2020, 5:15 PM

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The only reason the UK has them is because the UK government gives employers lots of money for hiring apprentices

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so its just very cheap labour

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and thats what a lot of apprenticeships end up as

radiant moon Apr 19, 2020, 5:15 PM

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then it's either rehire the person full-time when they graduate, or not

stable fern Apr 19, 2020, 7:32 PM

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What’s the consensus on resume placement in regards to headings?

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Certs > skills > experience?

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 7:35 PM

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hm?

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not sure I understand what exactly you mean there @stable fern

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But usually experience should be first

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then skills/projects

stable fern Apr 19, 2020, 7:41 PM

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Yeah that’s the answer I was looking for, thanks

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 8:00 PM

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anyone here kind of enough to have a skim read my resume and give me feedback?

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 8:07 PM

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usually yes

inner wrenBOT Apr 19, 2020, 8:16 PM

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Hey @left storm!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.docx). We currently allow the following file types: .3gp, .3g2, .avi, .bmp, .gif, .h264, .jpg, .jpeg, .m4v, .mkv, .mov, .mp4, .mpeg, .mpg, .png, .tiff, .wmv, .svg, .psd, .ai, .aep, .xcf, .mp3, .wav, .ogg.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 8:16 PM

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ah

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cant upload stuff

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 8:17 PM

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can but not any format

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 8:17 PM

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let me take screenshot

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 8:17 PM

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put link or image usually

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 8:17 PM

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here it is

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📎 unknown.png

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📎 unknown.png

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if anyone could give me feedbacks, thanks :)

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 8:31 PM

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what positions you look for?

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web dev? @left storm

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 8:32 PM

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backend or software dev

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worked very hard last 5 months

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still coding today

sour merlin Apr 19, 2020, 8:35 PM

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@left storm holy shit were u a beginner 5 months ago?

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 8:35 PM

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yh

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u can see my github progress

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📎 unknown.png

sour merlin Apr 19, 2020, 8:36 PM

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im a beginner in high school right now, i know this is probably off topic from careers but could u perhaps let me know some useful tips you have to acquire as much knowledge as you did in little time

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?^

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 8:37 PM

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uh

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 8:38 PM

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well you probably need go down to 1 page

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since you dont have much backend/soft dev exp

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so for you it would be junior/first position

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 8:39 PM

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only one that I've done throughout is coding coding coding, try to come up a project that would actually enjoy working on. Avoid random projects that someone tells you to do, if it doesn't sound interesting you will 100% lose interest. Start small, and work slowly, it will take time. it took a month or 2 before everything clicked. You will know when this happens @sour merlin

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so for you it would be junior/first position
@marsh wind yh

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well you probably need go down to 1 page
@marsh wind it used to be 3 pages but i cant reduce it to 1 without removing work experience

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since i did apprenticeship roles

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1 year each

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which i am hoping doesnt look bad

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 8:41 PM

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ugh. problem is it's semi relevant experience for what u look for.

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 8:42 PM

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yh

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=/

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 8:42 PM

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maybe you need to not discuss project in such details

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 8:42 PM

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I did ask that to some recruiters if should I even add my work experience if it has nothing to do with the role and they advised to do so but not 100% sure if it was right advice.

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 8:44 PM

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well it is useful

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becasue it shows that you worked in industry

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so you probably have soft skills

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 8:45 PM

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cool

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 8:48 PM

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also I would call it:
technical skills and soft skills

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rather than power

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unless it is common in your country

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also regarding the the personal statement....

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as it stands, I don't think it is useful

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 8:52 PM

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we tend to have personal statement

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in uk

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but not 100% sure if it's required. i'll ask around

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 8:53 PM

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It adds bulk of text that bears little information

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I am not saying it cannot be useful

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but when I read it I don't see anything that is not already there

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Like if you apply for soft dev position, it is clear that you want to be a soft dev and the sentence where you say "I am curretnyl looking for solf dev roles" adds nothing to it

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below you have both projects and tools, so why reiterate it?

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and, honestly, last sentence is also reads like you are desperate to find a job

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I was told few times that personal statement is like mini motivation letter and thus if you want to add it you should tailor it to the specific role at specific company @left storm

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 8:58 PM

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ah

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ill remove that bit then ty

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 9:00 PM

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I believe that idea of personal statement/cover letter is to show some extra way you can add value to the company

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and if you cannot find a real good way to put in few well rounded sentences it is better not to have it at all

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 9:02 PM

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ah cool

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even for junior roles?

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 9:03 PM

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well I don't know the UK specifics

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but what is usually said is HR/recruiter spends 7-10 seconds per resume

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 9:03 PM

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i mean my friend didnt have one for when he applied for banking and got job

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hmmm

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 9:03 PM

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before deciding if it goes to trash bin imediately

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or if it deserves a phone call

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 9:03 PM

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makes sense

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 9:04 PM

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it usually means you need some eye hooks so to say. and fo junior role rather than putting as much text into as little space possible

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you probably want to have good visual structure where some key points are highlited

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for instance in your project rather than put:
Utilized: Python, Discord API, SQLite

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you can put these words in the project description and make them bold

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 9:06 PM

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oh yh

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 9:08 PM

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I think we have few people in UK who frequents this chat, like @gilded valley so they might correct me

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also I think @indigo sleet and or @shadow moss are some with more experience

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someone told me the other day that the rule of thumb is usually this: if you are under 4-5 years of relevant experinece your CV should be single page

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i mean my friend didnt have one for when he applied for banking and got job
@left storm exactly. and I believe also that if the job posting require cover leltter/motivation explicitly you don't need it (personal statement atop of resume) for sure

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 9:11 PM

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ah

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 9:12 PM

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btw if you apply via linkedin or put link to it, you'd better have some profesionally looking picture there

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for project description:
in few places you write "added blah balh". It reads more like a commit message to me 😉

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maybe to can shorten their descroptions too... Things like "Option to change /reset passwords for user accounts" probably can be ommited

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finally, and this is a tough one, usually you experince should first on cv before projects/skills. In your case it is not so evident because you don't have yet backend/soft dev experinece

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P.S. I think git should be up there in tech skills alongside languages

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I guess that will be all for me. But to complete the picture it would be nice if someone more experinece, especially from UK could give a feedback

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 9:24 PM

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ah cool man, thank you sooo much for taking your time. Highly appreciate it. Adjusting it all

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 9:25 PM

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np, I am always happy to help 😉 I learned a lot here too, so I feel it is just fair to try help others 🙂

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 9:27 PM

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yes. thanks a gain

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 9:28 PM

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P.S. if you know more than English it usually won't hurt to put your languages

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 10:30 PM

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I'm East Coast American

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Alright Hunter let's look

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so my thoughts are my first impressions with American lenses, bias out of the way, let's go

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Software Projects, too much, shorten this down

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Message Encryption, don't care, Student level stuff

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To-Do List Web App, Student level stuff though user account registration is cool but unless you integrated with Google/Facebook/Azure AD, again, meh

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Incorporated Live Database for when information is updated on the GUI, it is pushed to the database I hope so, otherwise that database is useless

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Added Functionality <snip> intern reflects the new settings on the database First, it's 'in turn', second, again, storing stuff in database is expected behavior

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I'm seeing other grammar stuff, not sure if you are native English speaker, if so, clean that up, that's not acceptable

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Employment history right after skills

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and expand on what you did

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process new hardware requests as part <snip> of the processing of po's

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I assume you mean purchase orders, while everyone know what PO (check casing) is, abbreviations should almost never be used

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I'm seeing weird word case and grammar, get someone else to read it and mark everything

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Not sure what BCS is, spell it out

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MTA either

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What's with apprenticeship (which you misspelled) and employment history

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Services Desk Analyst - Contract (SPACING)

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oh yea, Is C in English good or bad, in America it would "average" and thus I wouldn't list it, though I see why you might have gotten that grade

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 10:44 PM

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Yeah I forgot to mention him to proofread English

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 10:44 PM

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4/10, would drop resume into shredder

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and yes, grammar/spelling is important, it shows lack of proper care, this relates to programming because you will spend 2 hours fitzing with Python application because you forget to pay attention to detail in indentation and confused why it spits random errors at you OR why conditional statement isn't doing what you thought it would

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@left storm

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 10:47 PM

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one of main reasons I basically never use/updated my CV in French (even though in France they might prefer it over English) that I don't have that level of French or a person who can proof read on demand

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 10:49 PM

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ah cool, going through feedbacks

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 10:49 PM

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I just know that if i'd to it they would shred it just for my French 🙂

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 10:49 PM

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in US, all resumes are in English but I'm pretty good at telling between not native and didn't spend enough time

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 10:49 PM

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yeah sure. In the end I only bothered with Engish CV

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and it worked out so 🤷‍♂️

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I was asked for French twice

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and once I was asked if I can send .doc in addtion to .pdf

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 10:50 PM

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to a recruiter?

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never give external recruiters editable document

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 10:51 PM

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HR I think

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but I just replied that I don't have doc

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 10:51 PM

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oh, their HR software probably only dealt with .docx

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 10:51 PM

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which was true

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cause mine is LaTeX

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 10:51 PM

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ours only does which is hilarious because we are GSuite company

blazing river Apr 19, 2020, 10:51 PM

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What do you think of learning Python to start freelancing ? Does it worth it ?

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 10:51 PM

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compared to?

blazing river Apr 19, 2020, 10:52 PM

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Employee salary vs freelance earnings

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 10:52 PM

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If you were freelancing and didn't have established client list and needed one language and one language only, it would be JavaScript

blazing river Apr 19, 2020, 10:53 PM

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What about Python ?

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 10:53 PM

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because as evil as React/Angular/Node is, it's what powers the web and web is vast majority of freelancing

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 10:54 PM

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ours only does which is hilarious because we are GSuite company
@shadow moss only docx you mean?

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 10:54 PM

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yep

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 10:54 PM

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why? 🙂

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 10:54 PM

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Don't know

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didn't write it, didn't pick it, don't maintain it

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 10:54 PM

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but what if people send .pdf?

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 10:54 PM

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just had that problem

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🤷 I have Office365 subscription so while I normally send PDFs, they come from docx

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so I just emailed them DOCX

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remember, it's megacorp, someone, somewhere picked our third party HR software and that's decision they made

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 10:56 PM

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I see, well kinda weird but 🤷

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 10:56 PM

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wait so what would be considered above student level

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for projects

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 10:57 PM

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just sucks for someone who ddid not do it in doc initialy lol

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 10:57 PM

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my guess is docx lets them quickly put in my job history where they have to translate from PDF into software

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so they are lazy and ask for docx to save themselves the work

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Hunter, Maybe database manager, Weather Web App, Snapchat Discord Bot

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my point there was don't write base functionality like it was awesome

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 10:58 PM

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ah

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 10:58 PM

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"I write to database" Big whoop, if it didn't, I'm going to fire you in day 3

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 10:58 PM

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well I remember when I uploaded CV on some websites they did good job parsing the data from it

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not ideal but a decent one really

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 10:59 PM

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you can say, used SQLite for backend storage

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 10:59 PM

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ah

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2 to 3 bullet point?

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 10:59 PM

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yep

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and key stuff

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Like Weather Web App, second bullet point should be first

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 11:00 PM

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ah

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 11:00 PM

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API interaction is something many programmers do

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esp with Microservices

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 11:00 PM

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makes sense cool

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 11:01 PM

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Message Encryption is one that should just go

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 11:01 PM

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now you are in good hands Hunter 😉

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 11:01 PM

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Message Encryption with string isn't that awesome these days, every language has library for symmetrical encryption

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and if you rolled your own encryption library, A) Cool and B) better be student exercise only, encryption isn't something you do on your own

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 11:02 PM

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yh

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 11:03 PM

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my bigger concern is employment history

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you have this apprenticeship and this string of jobs

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I don't know what's going on but it bothers me

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unless this is something totally normal in UK

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it would be crazy unusual in US

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 11:04 PM

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which part

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 11:04 PM

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some gaps

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Sept 2017 Feb 2018

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Dec 2019, February 2019, April 2019 till now

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 11:05 PM

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oh

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 11:05 PM

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this might be cross pond not understanding

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 11:05 PM

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i did 2 different apprenticeship for 2 different companies

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 11:05 PM

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in US, job gaps are bad

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 11:05 PM

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yeah

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one was for level 3 and other for level 4

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some companies kick apprentice out after completing

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 11:05 PM

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so put in your resume in way that explains it to me

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 11:06 PM

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ah

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 11:06 PM

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if you held multiple positions

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 11:06 PM

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and the itc network security one the role was made redundant

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 11:06 PM

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be like Company A, Widget maker, Floobit spinner

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Company B, ABox Programmer, ZBox tester

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you could be like Company A - Apprenticeship: Role Role Role, Company B - Apparenticeship: role role role

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 11:07 PM

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makes sense

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what if the role was made redundant?

marsh wind Apr 19, 2020, 11:09 PM

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also as I understand in his case apprenticeship != job, so it is not exactly a job gap?

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 11:09 PM

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leave it blank

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 11:09 PM

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you don't explain why you left in resume

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just it seems like you were company hopping

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show me you werent

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 11:09 PM

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h

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yh cool updating it

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 11:10 PM

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This is my resume when I changed roles 3 times in 5 years, alot snipped

📎 unknown.png

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and yes, I was sysadmin who became Site Reliability Engineer which as I've been told by developers, is bougie sysadmin

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 11:17 PM

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for the projects should I just explain the tools I used and where?

shadow moss Apr 19, 2020, 11:19 PM

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Lower your project count

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but explain your projects what they do and any tech you used

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but pretend you were talking to another programmer

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don't say "I wrote to database"

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stuff another programmer is going to be like "Yes yes, that's normally how this works" is stuff you shouldn't exclude

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Read OpenWeather API for locations, good

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wrote code to read API, bad

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flavor it up

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I'm going back to Stellaris

left storm Apr 19, 2020, 11:23 PM

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cool tyy for feedbacks

supple fossil Apr 20, 2020, 12:59 AM

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How can I make myself stand out as a self taught programmer

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And every job I look at I'm always missing some skills

brisk path Apr 20, 2020, 5:43 AM

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It's of my opinion that desired/extra skill sets described in job applications are just a wishlist for HR. While it might not be desirable, or on your radar. An internship is a great way to get your foot into the door of a job.

shut geyser Apr 20, 2020, 7:19 AM

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bougie sysadmin

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what does that mean

fleet heron Apr 20, 2020, 11:46 AM

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bourgeoisie sysadmin

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see https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bougie

Urban Dictionary

Urban Dictionary: Bougie

People pretending to (or think they are) high class and but they're really not (or don't realize they aren't.)

shadow moss Apr 20, 2020, 1:21 PM

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What virus said

shut geyser Apr 20, 2020, 1:22 PM

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Thanks

woven prawn Apr 20, 2020, 1:29 PM

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Calling an api can be written as “third party API integration”

fleet heron Apr 20, 2020, 1:34 PM

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lol

fleet heron Apr 20, 2020, 1:51 PM

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NOT FOR RECRUITMENT

tardy stag Apr 20, 2020, 5:02 PM

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sysadmin with more class, got it

sick mist Apr 20, 2020, 5:34 PM

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you sound like a shady drug dealer

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not sure if it's the right place to advertise for your services (but then is there a good place for it?)

vital nimbus Apr 20, 2020, 6:00 PM

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Hello, got a question about working as a pentester. Is it often asked by clients to perform physical pentesting?

shadow moss Apr 20, 2020, 6:55 PM

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No

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Pretty much only government requires it and skills for physical pen testing are not technically but emotional.

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Can you manipulate your way into building?

dire shell Apr 20, 2020, 7:03 PM

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@vital nimbus You should check out the podcast Darknet Diaries. If you're interested in pen testing, info sec, and cybersecurity stuff, it's pretty awesome! https://darknetdiaries.com/

Darknet Diaries – True stories from the dark side of the Internet.

A podcast featuring true stories from the dark side of the Internet.

vital nimbus Apr 20, 2020, 7:07 PM

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@shadow moss That's not really in my skillset at the moment haha. That's why I'm asking.
@dire shell Thank you, will check !

shadow moss Apr 20, 2020, 7:22 PM

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BTW, two ways my buddy who did this was with UPS uniform and Xerox shirt

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UPS uniform let him bring in box filled with stuff and Xerox let him bring in toolbox of stuff

jaunty mist Apr 20, 2020, 8:20 PM

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Hello

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Hi

indigo sigil Apr 21, 2020, 5:24 AM

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Is there a discord that focuses on interview prep/whiteboard coding/technical interview?

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for any/all languages

steady lagoon Apr 21, 2020, 7:57 AM

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@vital nimbus You should check out the podcast Darknet Diaries. If you're interested in pen testing, info sec, and cybersecurity stuff, it's pretty awesome! https://darknetdiaries.com/
@dire shell that’s a fantastic podcast. Love listening to it 👍

Darknet Diaries – True stories from the dark side of the Internet.

A podcast featuring true stories from the dark side of the Internet.