agree with @sterile meadow for screening juniors it's easier for recruiters to look at those metrics, while nothing beats a proper interview
#career-advice
sick mist
@marsh wind yep, this is how I understood it as well, I don't know why we strayed away like that 😄
viral ridge
that was obv and actually mypoint
sterile meadow
it was more because of this ```
on the other hand the people in the bottom of University, probably are not the ones that are going down to be a path of data science ie
There was context
sterile meadow
it shocked me because i've seen more proficient guys being the ones that barely pass while they work on other personal projects outside of uni
viral ridge
using voice recognition doesn't make it easier for me tocommunicate, and I'm not able to scroll and copy paste, but I don't feel like getting into a fight over nothing. It is funny that nobody reacted to the guy saying he is the cookie you want, just because I mention a disability but whatever
sick mist
@viral ridge to sum things up, if you are looking for a career change, both paths will get you in a comfortable industry, where pays are very good on average, but programming and devops are two different fields, so you might want to dig further into what you want to do
marsh wind
well, anyway let's drop that part of discussion imo.
IIRC you had some kind of a health condition forcing you to use the voice recognition rather than keyboard. One way fro you might be thinking of which path will be more suitable in that regard
sick mist
you'll still get the opportunity to make great salary a few years into the job
sterile meadow
aaand bot of the areas are too big
marsh wind
I think his cookie comment was bcs of top10 uni rather than disability but again, lets' drop it for good
sick mist
but it does not require the same skillset and work setting
viral ridge
lol it's not like people were not quick to mention their achievements without university..
i have been trying to come up with scenarios within it that doesn't require me so much
to do so much coding and computer work
IT*
Relativity Relativity
sick mist
so what's your plan exactly then?
you said you wanted to move in a field where the pay was better, no?
but both devops and developper require quite some computer work I'm afraid
eager tree
@viral ridge mate, I didn't say that because of a disability
viral ridge
Misinterpreting Sorry for
the direction of that statement,
My headset is out of power
bbl
sterile meadow
you can always do management tbh
sick mist
you still get to be a lot in front of a computer I'm afraid
(between emails, meeting notes, reviews, spreadsheets)
I was scratching my head but a job in IT that does not require computer work ...
sterile meadow
yeah i know, but at least you dont do coding
boring for me
its just emails, reviews, meetings
sick mist
it does not have to be boring 🙂
but time flies faster when I'm doing manager work than coding work
marsh wind
well I imaging that writing more or less plain text with voice recognition is more efficient than coding
sick mist
yep, I think it's best suited to natural language rather than programming languages, though I only remember an interview from a few years ago of a guy who coded using dragon speech, so I don't know what's the current state of the art
maybe it has improved, we can ask @viral ridge if he ever comes back 🙂
sinful knot
sick mist
I like what they did to R2D2 "voice"
viral ridge
Oh I've been aroundthis server for some time
As well I'm using Dragon NaturallySpeaking
i have some recent error discord though which makes
Which makes using this cord headline annoying
Anyway , besides Dragon NaturallySpeaking I'm using an extension called dragonfly as well as something called castor. Some people have recently started to use the kaldi engine with improved results but it doesn't have the same versatile use as dragging Dragon naturally speaking
i imagine that guy you were referring to was using something similar. The extensions enables mapping of voice commands, which will then be injected into the Dragon NaturallySpeaking engine
To me the most annoying problem, along with misinterpretation obv, Is that you have to verify that your utterance was understood and interpreted correctly. This somehow puts a block on your brain flow, as opposed to normally when using your hands it is somehow an extension of your thought process... Basically "it just flows"
urban ermine
guys I need some help here
guys I'm kind of a beginner and i can't solve this out
i wanna
to this if my guess was wrong then print
wrong
and if right print right
import random
target_num, guess_num = random.randint(1, 10), 0
while target_num != guess_num:
guess_num = int(input("Guess a number between 1 and 10 until you get it right : "))
print(target_num)
eager tree
not the right place to ask lol
radiant moon
I'd guess it's using computer to simulate atoms moving around and making molecules
marsh wind
it's very much real @radiant moon @gabe#1813
Although often referred as quantum chemistry
sharp echo
It usually consist in modeling molecules (using model based on equations from quantum mechanics) to rationalize/predict stability of transition state (non isolable, high energy intermediates) to understand reactivity between molecules ie. which atoms in the reagent interacts and react. But in can be used to predict many properties : solubility, polarity, luminescence...
viral ridge
Regarding getting into management, i did consider that namely because of what was mentioned withThe dictated text being of natural form, meetings and such. As far from being an IT manager, it is very unlikely for someone without a good amount of work experience to answer such a position coming from a software engineering study.
Obviously there is entry-level management positions, but I don't feel that it is what i have learned, and I am unsure if someone would hire as software engineer into a management position, and how I should get into one
sick mist
true that management in IT teams tends to come from the team own ranks
but you can also look into "project management" roles, which also often lead to it manager positions later on
project management is a trade of its own, and is more focused on accounting / resource planning / psychology than coding
however, if you want to be good at it, you need to understand what your team is talking about, so while not requiring to be a developer yourself, you still need to have solid IT bases
vapid jay
Does anyone recommend the best way to become a CFO? and what are your views on working in start-ups?
sick mist
CFO? usually accounting is a good start
harsh jolt
I do a talk on leadership of technical teams and I gave it at EuroPython a couple of years back. I can probably find a link if anyone wants.
sick mist
🙋♂️
harsh jolt
(They had AV issues that day, so the slides were on somebody else's machine and the chair messed up the time for the session)
sick mist
still perfectly understandable, and you're doing a great speaking job 👍
balmy mural
How to prepare for a great virtual interview
Amazon recruiters hosting a workshop on virtual interviews in 30 minutes
https://meetandengage.com/amazon#event-ak8htqlal
viral ridge
auth box is flashing
sturdy axle
Do you need to know about all the fancy shit in Python like decorators etc to get a dev job that mainly uses Python?
Just OOP and DS & A?
gilded valley
it depends on the job
sick mist
but I'd say yes tho 😄
well, at least decorators aren't what I'd call fancy
it's all over the place
sturdy axle
My mind doesn't want to understand OOP
vast shoal
I learned about decorators while working this job, but I had previous experience as a professional developer when I started.
sturdy axle
It also doeshn't want to understand closures
eager tree
if you call things like that 'fancy shit' chances are you don't really understand things very well in general
sturdy axle
For lack of a better word
sick mist
"sophisticated" then
sturdy axle
@vast shoal what do you mainly do?
eager tree
it's not really that sophisticated
vast shoal
@sturdy axle I'm not sure what you mean. I develop software, mainly.
eager tree
it's syntactic sugar for func = deco(func)
sturdy axle
Back-end or front-end
vast shoal
Both.
vast shoal
I worked part-time while studying.
sturdy axle
How long did it take you to get a job?
vast shoal
From when?
sturdy axle
From not being in SWE -> being in SWE
eager tree
lol
vast shoal
I was not in SWE when I was born.
eager tree
haha
vast shoal
So I guess about 19 years?
sturdy axle
You said you were working part-time
vast shoal
Yeah, working part-time as a developer, while studying.
vast shoal
Sorry, not sure if I misunderstood any of your questions.
heavy plover
Anyone know what transitioning from DevOps to FullStack/BackEnd Dev is like? I've gone from Jr to Mid Level DevOps Eng since starting my career but I want out of DevOps. I enjoy the coding, but I really don't care a whole lot about the IT side
Not sure if I'd have to restart my career essentially by switching though
Or if companies really distinguish and care that much. Ik a few of my coworkers who switched from IT to Dev back in the early 2000s said they basically restarted, but that was 15 years ago when IT and Dev were very different
sick mist
some of your skills are transferrable, but not much
you'll find yourself maybe more at home with backend, coming from devops
since some tools you may already be familiar with (e.g. python, bash, databases, etc)
frontend is a world in itself, mostly centered around JS (if we omit desktop frontends, but these tend to be less popular these days)
depends on how far into programming you already got yourself, if you already enjoy coding and have done some projects, it may not feel like restarting your career, especially if you can demonstrate that you can handle both coding and ops
(you may be a terrible coder at first, but having a strong ops hat will give you bonus points over a terrible coder fresh from school)
heavy plover
@sick mist so as a full-time DevOps Eng rn I handle scaling, databases, data clustering with elastic search and Kafka, etc
Y'know, the devops stuff :p
But I don't really write app code day to day, or ever I think (I've written cli tools for myself and my team)
So in my free time I'm doing a fullstack bootcamp with django + html/css/js
And plan on Building an app after the bootcamp for fun, cuz like you gotta show you know how to use the stuff from the bootcamp. I get that
sick mist
stubled upon that some time ago: https://roadmap.sh/backend
I'd say regardless on how you acquired the knowledge, it gives a good overview of what you need to know for these kind of jobs
heavy plover
Yep, I've seen that and read all the roadmaps the author made
sick mist
if you can already check a few boxes that's good, even if you learned on the field
heavy plover
So, I guess part of why I even ask is because I do know how to code, but I've tried to go onto an opensource project a few times and Everytime I start looking at the issues on OS projects I'm like "I have no damn clue what's even happening here"
sick mist
hahaha, yeah, don't worry, happens to all of us 😄
getting on a new project takes time
even if you're veteran
take it easy on yourself, you can do it 😉
heavy plover
But like, yeah I know Polymorphism, OOP design, etc. I did all that in college and haven't really forgotten it
I read about it occasionally and it's always like "oh yeah I know that"
sick mist
well, then I don't think you're short of knowledge, you're most probably short of confidence that you can handle it 🙂
solve one issue, on one project
then you'll probably convince yourself you can do it, and feel less helpless in front of the next issue
baby steps
but don't think because we're devs it's suddenly super easy to be productive on random projects, you need to understand the domain problem, the architecture, etc
these things take time for all of us, the key is to keep pushing until one day it clicks
heavy plover
Ok, so it's similar to switching to a new infrastructure as a DevOps Engineer then. That makes sense and ik what you mean
Thanks (:
sick mist
you're welcome
vapid jay
Hello guys, so I would say I am an intermediate python dev and am looking to do some freelancing. The only problem is that all the freelance websites require a lot of information like photograph, schools etcetera. Do you know maybe a website where it happens a little anonymously, and you get credibility by getting some portfolio?
sick mist
usually you don't want to freelance anonymously, since most business run on mutual trust
on the other hand, I don't remember having to provide a photo anywhere in the past
which websites are you referring to?
vapid jay
for example upwork
They first check if they think your profile is good enough
And deploy it afterwards
sick mist
oh, weird, didn't know that
vapid jay
But i remember more freelance websites
sick mist
maybe it's a recent change, in the past they didn't pre-screen people
vapid jay
that required a photo
sick mist
well, I've seen people on upwork with the logo of their company or even a made-up logo
(but ok, maybe that also is from the past)
vapid jay
sick mist
ok, didn't know they required a picture, that's odd
is it really the picture that's bothering you? or just giving away personal information
vapid jay
well for example I haven't graduated yet
and they require all those school information etcetera
And i dont feel comfortable lying
sick mist
well, I'd say that's good ethics, don't change that 😉
vapid jay
ill try😂
sick mist
I presume they want to weed out unreliable suppliers, can't really blame them
did you try fiver also?
sick mist
well, yes, discoverability is a big problem if you go on these platforms
vapid jay
Yes, but for example fiver requires payment to get on their first page
I havent noticed any of that at upwork
So I guessed I would stand a bigger chance at upwork
And also at upwork freelancers can choose between jobs, at fiver it is the other way around
So I assumed I could maybe develop a portfolio at upwork with doing some work for free at some jobs
sick mist
what you can definitely do, is join one or more open source projects and build your portfolio there
sick mist
someone posted that earlier today on #python-discussion
depends on your field of expertise
vapid jay
Ohh okay thank you, i will definitely take a look
sick mist
also, if you know about a topic you can write about it, record talks, etc
this also adds up to your portfolio when you'll be looking for a job after graduation
if I see a CV of someone who's a key member of several open source projects + speaker, that's a lot of bonus points 🙂
anyway, good luck!
vapid jay
Thank you, you helped me a lot
sick mist
my pleasure
vapid jay
Wait last question @sick mist
So kaggle has its own datasets
and they give the people some objectives to find out
I am foreign and didnt really understand what an open source project is about
so those "competitions" from kaggle
do they count as open source projects?
white karma
Sounds like they would be
honest forum
Hi, I'd like help finding a Data Science job as a high-school dropout.
Basically, I have nothing to put on a CV, expect dubious MOOC certificates, but I'm a fairly decent programmer (solved thousands of problems on ProjectEuler/Codingame/Codewars... and read way too many CS books).
I know that some companies hire based on tests instead of CV but I have absolutely no clue how to find them
(My Github account is still pretty empty, which is another problem)
opal perch
I honestly can't say from experience but what I've seen its much harder to find a data science job without a degree than it is to find a software job without a degree. Especially since a lot of those problems aren't directly related to DS either.
white karma
Best thing you can do for the moment is work on your github and make yourself marketable.
honest forum
I have a few programs that I can probably share with the world with some modifications
opal perch
And in the github, show your analytical skills, not just your programming skills. Explain why certain data is useful or isnt useful. Etc
honest forum
Most of my projects are not data-science related
I mostly read books and courses about it (and one Kaggle challenge)
But thanks
opal perch
Like coldwind said, try and do more data science projects
honest forum
Will do
white karma
👍
opal perch
Good luck dude, don't give up man, it won't be the easiest journey
honest forum
I don't worry too much about that, I love what I do.
But finding a job is a little bit pressing.
hmmm
white karma
It’s a very tough market
honest forum
Not sure if this is an english word
white karma
But once you’re in I’m told there won’t be a big shortage of work
honest forum
Honestly I'm fairly confident about my level, I have just no idea where to look for a job that doesn't look too much at credentials
white karma
Take a pot shot at freelancing
It’s saturated to hell and back but there’s work there
honest forum
Seems even harder to find clients than to find a job. ^^
honest forum
I'll just postulate for everything I can find on Linkedin for now, to see if anything comes through
opal perch
Also it might be better to look for something in data analysis first, rather than data science
white karma
Wouldn’t hurt to contribute to open source projects either, as was said a bit earlier
marsh wind
also, if you want get into DS it usually implies a fair amount of Machine Learning which needs at least basic understanding of stats, calculus and linear algebra
to try to get some hang on it as well
untold nexus
Hello Loss ;)
glad tiger
There are some good programs that a friend of mine did. Depending on your math experience. He had a PhD in math so they taught him data science for free and now he works as a data scientist.
eager tree
there's a difference between someone who has a phd in maths and a high school dropout
white karma
I figure as long as he puts in the work he can still get somewhere
eager tree
Sure but he won't have easy access to courses like hplvp mentioned
glad tiger
I don't know. I think it depends on the program. Many programs give loans contingent on aptitude and salary after the program.
eager tree
Do you really think your PhD friend would have gotten onto that course if he was a high school dropout with no other qualifications
glad tiger
I mean one of the nice things about the schools is that if you pass their entrance tests they don't really care about your qualifications... but if you are a dropout because you don't like math. Then probably not.
https://flatironschool.com/career-courses/data-science-bootcamp and https://flatironschool.com/income-share-agreement-isa/
honest forum
Oh yes, I know a fair amount of Calculus, Stats and Linear Algebra. As I said, my problem is my absolute lack of credentials (and projects), not my maths/cs/programming skills...
I just applied to a truckload of job offers on Linkedin, I'll let you know if anyone contacts me back.
(not PhD level obviously, but enough to understand basic neural networks, SVM, PCA, kernel methods and the like)
white karma
How much experience do you have? Professional or otherwise
honest forum
I've been a delivery man for 6 months
white karma
I meant with programming
honest forum
None, as implied
I thought you meant professional, sorry
Then, my experience is : 20 programming/CS books, 30 online courses (mostly short ones), 140 problems solved on Project Euler, 1000 on Codingame, 500 on Codewars. 0 big projects
I'm more interested in theory than practice...
I don't think a Codingame profile really speaks to any recruter, sadly
opal perch
obviously I dont know your whole situation, but if you're more interested in theory than practice, isn't the best place for that uni and then phd/research?
honest forum
No, I'm satisfied with books. And I kind of need money.
vapid jay
@honest forum the stuff you've listed from the perspective of an employer sounds like "ok so you've done something -- what does it amount to in practice?"
eager tree
@honest forum I see you're in the CP discord, do you do codeforces?
honest forum
@eager tree Not yet, these days I am mostly on Codewars. But I will try codeforces later
eager tree
fair enough
codewars isn't really great for real things
have you done google foobar?
vapid jay
what matters is something that looks like "the real thing"
honest forum
Codeforces is even more about deep theory, no?
vapid jay
@honest forum first practical question; where do you want to get employed
eager tree
yeah same
honest forum
Basically anywhere but the army/finance
eager tree
it's not that special lol sorry to burst your bubble
honest forum
As long as my job is interesting
eager tree
one of my friends got the popup after googling 'google foobar'
vapid jay
@honest forum does that mean you want so solve any data science\machine learning problems the industry has to throw at you?
eager tree
it's fun if you like BFS and travelling salesman problems
honest forum
@vapid jay I do Codewars and Codingame because it's fun, not because I hope to find a job with it
@vapid jay Frankly, yes
eager tree
nah 😂
vapid jay
@honest forum then go to kaggle.com and start solving the competitions
opal perch
@honest forum don't forget, you'll be computing against masters/phd students wherever you go in datascience. If you want to go to DS, try and get into data analysis and move up from there
eager tree
it's just googling things
vapid jay
@honest forum the real world problems will be expansions of the kaggle competitions. they will be more difficult than them
honest forum
That's my goal for the next few weeks
I have already "done" the housing prices (improved the bare code given in the introductory tutorial)
eager tree
yeah
honest forum
☹️
vapid jay
@honest forum the housing prices is a demo dataset. the principles are there but it's a very simple approach.
honest forum
Yep
eager tree
What is kaggle? never heard of it
vapid jay
vapid jay
machine learning does not need codewars or any of those other things. you need kaggle and a lot of it.
codewars is for software engineers.
eager tree
oh ml challenges interesting
opal perch
@honest forum the route you chose will be anythign but fun, it's going to be a hell journey to try and make it, a lot of self-discipline
the github is different for data science route, its more of a bloggy kind of style than "here's some code, here's my jupyter notebook"
vapid jay
@vapid jay 'yes but read-only. no execution.
opal perch
never said it didnt?
vapid jay
that's right. you can't. but you can execute code on both colab, kaggle, aws and azure
weary forge
Ok real talk. Is the """"Github portfolio""""" a real thing that employers might take into consideration?
I sure hope so, because I like the idea of it being a thing
My strength is writting pretty readmes lol
vapid jay
@weary forge I see no reason why not. they look at the github link yes. i personally have https://world-wake.github.io/ though frankly I haven't linked it to anybody yet and I've done zero work on it...
vapid jay
just so everybody knows that's 100% a template
weary forge
looks very pretty though
vapid jay
hwat
the point was that it was supposed to be some nifty data science thing for employers to look at but I never got around to it
vapid jay
well nobody literally knows about it. the only place where I share it is discord.
weary forge
I'm tired of lurking around and creating low-lvl APIs
vapid jay
it's like "hue well I made this thing but it's irrelevant because you're the only people who know about it"
weary forge
heh
vapid jay
probably front
I meant the MOST fat is in the back but the fastest is in the front
🤷
weary forge
I guess that makes sense
white karma
Cant have the front end without the back end and vice versa
supple fossil
I need a new job
white karma
Same
vapid jay
me2
spice escarp
Hey guys, I was wondering what web technology would appear better in terms of a portfolio piece. I understand it may be dependent on the project scope but I am trying to build a strong resume and wanted to see what you guys thought. It's my understanding that flask is more lightweight vs django, but I'm not sure which one is more interesting to see in terms of a portfolio piece
oh that might be actually a fun project, make a website in one framework, and then make an identical one in the other
I have a pretty strong understanding of web development in the Javascript scope, but I want to do more with data analytics later on, and my current internship unfortunately was cancelled so if I cannot find anything soon I was planning on just getting serious with learning new technologies. I guess I should also think of data processing projects as well for database type work
fair enough, it's harder for me to think of any ideas with those types of projects :(
really bumming about my internship being cancelled but hopefully it'll motivate me to further my own education
similar to other frameworks such as like react and angular?
or do you mean the backend side of things like express
oh gotcha, it seems like flask is pretty minimalistic an would require more work on my end to implement certain things
yeah true :P
maybe its similar to nestjs (if you've heard of it)
this is nest https://docs.nestjs.com/
shouldn't get too off topic w/ javascript though lol
I've only used it with react but its just built onto express
ah lol
I haven't really used python in my classes at college, but hopefully some of these places I just applied to won't mind. It seems fairly straightforward to learn coming from a C/C++ background
My plan was to just build a bunch of projects over the summer and put them on github, yeah
but I'm thinking if I build a portfolio website with python, it would look better
yeah for sure it would be a big task
i'm not too sure lol, maybe to show I am competent with restful API's and the works
maybe I'm overthinking things
I'm just stressing about having no internships before my bachelors is done ._.
yeah maybe I just have a SPA that shows my resume and links other projects
Its hard to find a good balance between quantity of projects and scopes of said projects
oh wow thats a really good idea!
it would help me make a project at least
thanks for that suggestion :D
yeah true
open patio
@spare ginkgo please do not post in multiple channels at once. you should only ask where the question is appropriate, which is here in #career-advice or an off-topic channel
modern badge
Hi everyone, I'm thinking about applying to an internship at tesla for AI. But I'm anxious about applying, I graduated in 2009 with a degree in computer engineering but I've been teaching people to drive ever since. What advice do you have for me to increase my chances at landing an internship?
opal perch
I might be mistaken, but aren't internships for fresh graduates or students?
At least every internship I've seen said "must be studying bachelors" or "must be studying masters/phd"
@modern badge
I got this off the tesla website, and unless you're a student, I'd say your chances for an ai internship are 0.
white karma
Are there companies that offer internships to non students?
gilded valley
it just wouldn't really be called an internship at that point
white karma
I could live with that
opal perch
that would be called a job
white karma
I don’t think I’d want to work an unpaid job
opal perch
internship isn't unpaid, it's rarely unpaid
white karma
Wait really?
opal perch
yea
vast shoal
Especially if it's a job!
white karma
Ah now I understand
marsh wind
also, why should intership be unpaid?
opal perch
It isn't, he just didn't know
white karma
I blame internet articles for telling me mostly about unpaid internships
gilded valley
unpaid internships are a lot bigger in other industries I think
especially creative industries and politics
vapid jay
Hello, is it hard to land a programming job for entry level engineers?
opal perch
I think that's subjective. Someone from MIT might get a job by applying to one place, and someone might have to apply 100x and attend 50 interviews and still not get anything.
modern badge
@opal perch bah thank you for destroying my dreams 😢 lol
but let me look at the posting
opal perch
if you have a phd or masters. There are job postings for ai. That's probably where you should be looking anyway.
modern badge
nah i dont, i have a bs in computer engineering, but i graduated in 2009
opal perch
I mean try and apply, if you have 10 years experience, they might overlook the fact that you have no phd/masters
modern badge
and i havent worked in the industry
i have experience running my family business with my dad ( driving school )
so i feel like i could be a good fit as i have years of experience teaching humans how to drive
and have the knowledge on how to apply computers to the problem
opal perch
mate, I'm not the recruiter, go apply
modern badge
🙂
yeah i'm looking at the requirements and only the research postings ask for MS/PHD
so i guess i gotta try to clean up a resume and just give it a shot
if i'm lucky they'll at least give me a reason why they said no 👍🏾
marsh wind
in my experience of applying for jobs, they don't give a reason for a no. I actually considered myself lucky when they at least took time to atually say "no" and not just start ghosting
opal perch
same here, or they just give some generic response that could mean anything
white karma
Not exactly encouraging but hey, only the ones that say “yes” matter
marsh wind
that's true. But yeah, that my experience at least - no replies, 80% and maybe 20% with generic no
heavy plover
@sick mist funny interaction just happened. I was talking to one of our devs who I work with a lot to figure out issues between infrastructure and apps and he asked how it's going. So I told him about my interest in full stack and basically what I was asking you yesterday
And he says
"You do DevOps and you're worried about being able to learn FullStack? No no my friend, development is easy your guys shit scares the hell out of me."
charred summit
Isn't DevOps a part of full-stack itself? 
I read somewhere today that it doesn't stand out as a job by itself
radiant moon
I doubt either of those terms are precisely defined
or even close
"full-stack" to me means "I know javascript, html, TCP/IP, back-end stuff, databases, deployment"
"dev-ops" just means "I can code and manage the boxes the code runs on", but isn't necessarily about web stuff
🤷
white karma
Dev ops sounds like something I’d be interested in
radiant moon
I guess it's what I do 🙂
at this very moment I'm adding a pile of hosts to a web service
white karma
I can only imagine the requirements for it
And the internet is telling me there’s quite a few
heavy plover
DevOps was never really supposed to be a role in of itself, its supposed to be a mindset really
but devops is now it's own job because buzzwords
Some days I do linux admin stuff, some days I write scripts to deal with AWS stuff, some days I do configuration code with Chef and Terraform
what part do you not agree with?
it split out because it became huge I guess. Like, CI/CD, Admin Skills, Config Management, some release, etc
but I'm pretty sure it originally was supposed to be a way to de-silo teams
yeah definitely, I'm not trying to downplay it haha, it's been my whole career so far
The whole idea, as it was explained to me a couple years ago, is that organizations had too many different teams who wouldn't interact
so dev's would write some app, then hand it to IT and say "ok run it"
DevOps was supposed to fight that
I did not work in the industry 10 years ago though so I don't really know first hand
I've only been in the industry for 2 years though and by the time I started working DevOps had gotten so big that Jr DevOps Engineer was a position :p
they lied to me though haha. I was told I would be dealing with API's via code
yeah exactly, more integration
so lets take Google for example. A former team member of mine is there and he's an SRE now. He said an SRE is more along the lines of what DevOps should have led to everywhere
so not really a DevOps engineer, but a engineer who knows both App and Infrastructure and can work on a team to make sure the app works with the infrastructure
i gotta go back to work, I'll be back in a bit. Not ignoring you
heavy plover
So for us, we know what our apps do but we don't know the code and libraries and stuff really
we care about how to make sure the app is running well though, so for instance I recently setup a route 53 dns with a master and four slaves to handle more connections
but, I also don't really like the devops work that much haha. I'm not bad at it and I pick up on the topics well, but I think it's something that you're better at if you've had experience as a developer first tbh
And that's why I want to go into development for my next position, I think understanding how the API's are built (coded) and what the DB connections are doing is important to be good at DevOps/SRE type roles
I do like the work, I just find it hard sometimes to be able to make recommendations and improvements to the systems we have since I don't really know much about app or web dev
whereas a lot of the guys on our team who aren't new grads actually come from development backgrounds and transitioned into the devops space
I'd be ok with that but idk if that'd be possible at this stage in my career
I'm young and don't have much sway really haha
heavy plover
Does fullstack include devops though? Company I'm at now has fullstack devs but they write front end and backend code, but they don't deal with their own pipelines and stuff
glass breach
any jobs out there for python for total introverts?
forest cedar
hey idk if this is the right place to ask for advice, but can someone give me some insights on choosing between colleges for a cs degree?
heady yacht
torpid bolt
@glass breach there are certainly a lot of introverts in CS, developers, sysadmins, etc, but make no mistake, cooperation and communication are very important in these jobs, it's fine if it mostly happens via text medium (email, chat, documents), but it also useful to have in-person meetings to discuss things, they are usually of few people, so that shouldn't be too overwhelming, but talking is going to happen. Practices like daily standup, where you spend a few minutes talking about your day (done & planned) are common for dev teams.
sick mist
@heavy plover I'd say that some people are really able to do full stack as in both dev and ops, but these are few. The most common pattern is developer doing front and back, but also knowing enough of Linux and servers so they can manage their own local environment and could replicate that on a server if absolutely necessary.
Of course they're missing lots of points, but in many small businesses it's usually good enough
If you are the only IT person at the company, even if you are a developer by trade, you end up being also the sysadmin, the network and telephony guy, etc.
glass breach
@torpid bolt that's a shame, but understandable. What can I do to minimise contact with people, then? Or alternatively, minimise contact with people not in my development team or project?
Thank you for your help though
email and text chat are fine, its mostly face-to-face which is the most draining
torpid bolt
well, know that it can get easier, not all discussion is high stake and stress is not a necessary part of it, people aren't out to get you, and we are all weird anyway, people respect your opinion more than you think, and they are mostly guessing their way through this just like you, so my strategy is to be very open about how (and if) i understand the situation, and what i know about it, my plans or lackthereof, and if things go wrong, reevaluate if i could have done something better, but not to double guess first.
You don't necessarily want to minimize contact, if you are stuck on a problem, you want to be able to easily reach to other people, as very often technical problems can be worked around by redefining the problem, and even technical problems can be solved more effectively with multiple people thinking together.
All teams are different, and it certainly help to be in a team that agrees with you on the favorite way to communicate, but it's also possible to purposely (and explicitely) experiment with ways of communicating and organizing the work, to find out what works best for you and your team (and you might be surprised).
@glass breach
glass breach
I'll give what you've said a shot - thanks for taking the time to help, I appreciate it
vapid jay
Does anyone have a good python dev job for beginners? Remote
opal perch
a) not the place for people to give you a job. b) I doubt there are very many remote jobs for beginners, just think about it, they won't invest in a beginner and have it be remote. If they invested in a beginner, it would definitely be in person so they can train you up while you're working.
vapid jay
How long will it take to learn front end web dev if I practice everyday?
marsh wind
it depends. check the pinned message for example https://discordapp.com/channels/267624335836053506/470889390588035082/614161247272960011
craggy wave
I think they removed it themselves, but I'll look into it
vapid jay
anyone here from the UK heard of Brunel.. is it a good school
gilded valley
According to the rankings, its not great https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings
faint bison
heavy plover
@forest cedar what do you want to know about cs degrees?
I can tell you I went to a no-name university in the SouthEast USA and had no issues getting a job with a little bit of work in my freetime
untold flax
Yeah, but it seems like a tough transition. So here I am... doing everything thing I can. Holding on to what I am. Pretending I'm a Superman.
charred summit
it would definitely be in person so they can train you up while you're working.
@opal perch can't a beginner improve himself/herself while working remotely? I mean does Web Dev even require face-to-face chat? or is it something else they teach you in person that they can't online?
opal perch
For sure they can, but if you're capable of doing web dev you're not a beginner. But I still dont think a company will take you on for a remote beginner job, was just my opinion
look at it this way, they could just as easily hire someone that's a beginner but for in office, and they'll get way better results for the same pay.
charred summit
They don't take beginners, fine. but they do take web devs right?
and btw if you have worked already, how an in-office beginners brings more to the table?
opal perch
Yea they'll take a web dev remotely, there are 100s of remote jobs, I was just saying I don't think a company would hire a beginner remotely.
to answer your question, they'll be able to see the work you're doing with constant updates, they can easily look over your shoulder and help you out if you're struggling, being in the team meetings you might learn a thing or two. It's not impossible remotely, but you'd have to be pretty amazing at working remote.
from the couple jobs I have done (only internships), I can't imagine they could have been done remotely if I was a beginner
charred summit
thank you, that was so informative.
opal perch
It's just my opinion though, take it with a pinch of salt. Maybe someone else can give a better opinion. I think lemon worked remotely for a while?
charred summit
I looked up his name, I guess you are referring to one of the owners, right?
But so far, I have give a "this" to everyone's opinion, they are all good and motivating, especially for anyone getting their feet wet.
opal perch
Yea one of the owners
forest cedar
@heavy plover I'm a high school senior deciding between college acceptances for a cs degree and I wanted to what to look out for that would make a school rlly worth the bank for my buck compared to another. Any other career advice or how to prepare myself as a incoming college freshman would be appreciated as well
old silo
I am from India, nxt year I will pass my 12th board i don't wnt to study anything except computer
So for which jobs I can apply
So what all qualifications do I need to grab in order to get job at big tech companies
stoic lily
Hey guys, anyone have suggestion on where find clients for freelancing? i trying in freelancer and upwork, but i having troubles
heavy plover
@forest cedar unless it's like a top 10 program then where you get the CS Degree isn't a huge deal. It more than likely will not be a deciding factor in whether you get a job or not at the end of the deal. The degree is great to get and I enjoyed college
so I would say look at your options of schools who accepted you
and see if any of them have direct recruiters from companies like Google, Facebook, Amazon, LinkedIn, Cisco, etc come direct on site
some schools have really close relationships with companies where their students will have a better chance getting internships and jobs, and they are going to be good schools for sure
but the degree, just from talking with people in the industry since I've started, seems to be very similar everywhere as long as its an ABET accredited program
like, there really isn't that much variance between my college and the other state schools I had the option of. None were particularly great though or had relationships with great companies, so I ultimately just went the cheapest route
but if I had the option to go to a school like USC (Cal) which directly feeds Google and Facebook I'd heavily consider going there
forest cedar
ok i see, thank you sm for the advice!
modern citrus
I’m new in the discord and wonder if there are people like me here as well.
I’m a mechanical engineer with the specialization on CFD, I’ve been using MATLAB for around last 6 years. For a month, due to coronavirus having lots of time, I finally started to learn python to pursue a career in machine learning as algorithm engineer or more generally to catch the future since I believe that ai will be the core of manufacturing and engineering in upcoming decades. I would appreciate to hear experiences of people who encountered such situation.
clear sleet
Can you get a job just knowing and using python? And if so, what libraries do you need to know? And also, I’m a decent python programmer, intermediate at best. But I have a hard time becoming better, hard time becoming good enough to get a job. I just can’t seem to excel any further. So what would be a good way to become better?
torpid bolt
projects: build stuff, read good technical information, not just high level blog posts or stackoverflow answers, long-form articles or book, and apply things, also you might not be able to see your own growth, as (as all of us), you see your struggle much more than your successes. Make sure you share what you build to get feedback on it.
i don't think i'm an excellent programmer either, but it's not rare for people to tell me otherwise, i have a hard time believing them, but it might be that assessing oneself's profficiency is hard.
clear sleet
Thanks! But is it possible to get a job if the only programming language you know is python?
torpid bolt
i do think so, it certainly depend on where you are looking for work, but python is in high demand, and backend dev using python is certainly an option. my current jobs and a most of the previous ones have been mostly python
of course, there is also more side knowledge to pick up, some html/css/js if you do front, sql or other query languages if you do backend, shell if you do sysadmin/devops
clear sleet
So what kind of libraries should I learn?
torpid bolt
it depends a lot on what kind of job you are looking for, django is a safe bet if you want to do backend dev, or flask, or some other web server, sqlalchemy or another orm lib, as well, ansible for more devops things, pandas and matplotlib/bokeh or anything like it if you are going more into datascience… but really there are a lot, and it depends a lot on what you want to do
you'll learn on the job anyway, we all do, it's part of it, companies will want someone who already knows the tech, of course, but they can't always have that, unless the tech is very basic/common.
clear sleet
Thanks!
sturdy axle
Aren’t most jobs just gonna be programming jobs within 5 - 10 years?
steel umbra
@sturdy axle Doctors ain't going anywhere that quick
Neither are Chemists, botanists etc etc
Still that's just my opinion so do your own research
sturdy axle
@steel umbra
Was referring to the main engineering jobs
Sysadmins aren’t even really sysadmins anymore
torpid bolt
code is not going to build houses in 10 years either
torpid bolt
that's still a wider category than what you want to say, i believe, not all enginering is about computers
but if you mean all the jobs that are about building and managing software programs, then sure, there will be some programing part to about any of them, there certainly always was
rapid badge
👍
I am currently over the basics in python, just started learning django(as its scalable) and thats the most easy route to python job(thats what i currently think, i also have seen web scraping, automation skill jobs, but i think backend freelnce will be stable incone).
What do you guys think about my plan??
Do you Pros have any opinions/corrections for my strategy??
Do you think before django there might be some way to earn money with python, like gigs, freelance??
What do you guys think??
torpid bolt
imho django is not going to be used for a projects of a few days, so the kind of freelancing you'll be looking for is for multiple weeks/months in a bigger company that doesn't want to have all its workforce employed full time, it can be a lucrative segment to be in, but they'll want you to have some good expertise at that, as they won't want to pay the premium of freelancing otherwise.
some django-based CMS could be a good basis for a gigs like freelancing work, but i don't have experience with that.
tacit musk
In your opinions how sought after is a degree in, say, the machine learning field?
torpid bolt
my uninformed opition is, a lot, at least for the people actually designing the algorythms, phd is certainly prefered. for people just applying them, probably much less.
tacit musk
I got a very good deal with a free BS provided by walmart in computer science but I dont really have the money to continue education after that. Would an employer look at background knowledge as well or just assume based on the level of my degree?
torpid bolt
you'll get interviews to check you are able to talk about things and achieve basic tasks, that's for sure
rapid badge
What do you think about small gigs like web scraping(scraping some bulk phone numbers), pdf related tasks on freelance or upwork??
And making websites for small business owner, people with a frontend template on freelance??
torpid bolt
i have no experience (or opinion) about the first one, i'm sure they exist, i have no idea how sustainable they are, i would assume someone able to define the task should be able to complete it, but i'm probably wrong on that. For small business owners, the amount of money available usually restricts to using very ready made solutions like wordpress or squarespace and the like, and the complexity of what they need doesn't require using a framework to build something custom, but i never tried to do that myself, so maybe i'm wrong, although i'm a bit more confident in that one than on the first.
grizzled trout
Would an MSc in Data Analytics or Advanced Software Development open more doors?
golden eagle
might be a stupid question, but I was never taught about uni as I left high school, is it worth doing multiple degrees in the exact same discipline?
e.g Bachelor's of I.T, Master's of I.T, opposed to doing Bachelor's of Comp Sci and Master's of I.T or something?
having the same discipline in both degrees can cut off some time, but is it worth it? I've been looking to get into infosec for a while, and don't know if I should go for a Bachelor's of Cybersecurity, or something else, AND THEN a Master's of Cybersecurity.
is that the way you're meant to do it? or will i just be relearning the same content with a little extra? and would you only list the highest degree on your resume if you did that?
vapid jay
- most people don't need degrees, the best programmers are sometimes the ones that are self taught
grim urchin
Comp sci has literally nothing to do with IT
vapid jay
^ yeah what he said.. and masters is optional, a bachelor's degree gets your foot in the door
grim urchin
And a lot of the best engineers and programmers I know are terrible with computers and technology
golden eagle
that's not the point
calm moon
grim urchin
Yeah, I just feel compelled to say that whenever I see IT and comp sci mentioned together
cerulean wind
Anyone know of any internships around San Diego
hard hedge
Dear ladies and gentlemen,
I'm looking for a skype interview with a French brand,
and for an internships in the Netherlands or Sweden for next year
Development, Databases, General IT sciences or Networking
charred summit
I have tried those degrees and left them quickly when I found out they teach you shit.
Nothing they taught me could actually help in finding bugs or fixing them.
Cyber security degree is pretty shit, it's hard as it requires you to study chemistry for some unknown reasons.
IT degree is same, teaches you about networking, they do a top down approach instead of a bottom up, I.e. they teach you the things that are used right now instead of the things that were first created. Programming is old C. Classes used to be something about weather pollution, don't know how
That would help.
CS degree is both of the above.
I don't know where you live, but that's the situation in some places in the world, the syllabus isn't updated for years.
@golden eagle
Sorry for the typos I am on phone :(
golden eagle
all good, i'm from australia and the bachelor's i've been checking out seems pretty good
charred summit
Lucky you man
golden eagle
yeah, i've no clue about the redundant shit like chemistry or whatever, but yeah
from a glance, it seems pretty alright
charred summit
How does that seem 'right'?
I come from a bug hunting background and everything I learned at school and 1.5 years of uni didn't help.
charred summit
Right, let me check :)
opal perch
@hard hedge this isn't the place for people to give you jobs
shadow moss
biggest benefit to degree is checkbox for HR
and it's somewhat important checkbox because if you can do 4 years of UNI, you can put up with whatever corporate BS we are about to inflict on you
acoustic idol
is that better than watching courses on youtube i already watched one full course for begginers that lasted 4 hours
and did everything he did even modify the code a littl
little
charred summit
my opinion: you can't learn to code in 4 hours, I know there are videos like learn this language in 1h, or 6h but that's not how it worked out for me
basically i can't grasp concepts from videos
so i would suggest building some type of motivation or desire to learn the language for example, i had started from solving ctfs > jumped to web hacking > found some bugs here and there > made some bucks > thought to make my work easier > jumped into python docs > then jumped into automated the boring stuff with python > then I could finally create my tools although they look like shit to me now, but that's how i started, and may be you can do too
however i don't know if you are even interesting in web hacking or already have something to begin with
acoustic idol
what exactly is web hacking
charred summit
short: when people create websites; they make mistakes; sometimes these mistakes lead to security vulnerabilities, for example, a web developer create a website where everyone can edit their profile information, but what if you can edit someone else's profile information?
that's a bug, sometimes caused by something like:
any_username = action()
instead of
current_username = action()
but hey action() is a function if you studied that :/
acoustic idol
how much time did you need to learn all of that stuff
gilded valley
Focusing on time is a very bad idea - the lengths will be different for everyone
vapid jay
when it comes to coding u kinda need to focus on what you actually want to learn for a career, for example if you wanted to do cybersecurity ethical hacking you would be looking at only certain modules, personally for me I only spent time learning pythons main libaries and then moved onto the more sophisticated modules which companies want cybersec to have skillwise for py
acoustic idol
i wanna make indie games with pygame is that hard to learn?
gilded valley
In the pins there is a reddit post who went from 0 to a job in around a year - if you're looking at self teaching to get a job, its a solid read
acoustic idol
from scratch of course
gilded valley
Well, if thats the case, this is the wrong channel for that sort of question
acoustic idol
2d games like platformers or top side shooters
ooh im sorry
why did he translate this to spanish ahahahha
what channel should i enter?
for pygame stuff
charred summit
i had seen an a short interview about game-dev from some Japanese guy and he wasn't doing it on python
but hey there is a game-jam-2020-chat in this server
acoustic idol
Thank you soo much
rain apex
guys, im 14 and decent at py. what specific thing should i begin to learn for a career
cyber security ^^
peak berry
learn about web
rain apex
html php and css?
peak berry
do you mean like ethical ?
peak berry
id probably be learing js, css , ejs , etc before learning about ssl's www etc
rain apex
okay, thanks
tiny marlin
white karma
!resources
inner wrenBOT
hushed jungle
How do you think covid is affecting the tech/programming job space?
Like, are you seeing layoffs for programmers, or is this a sector well suited to have many people just work at home so not much affected
white karma
As far as I know, a lot of jobs are being put on hold
neon moat
depends what industry you work in
earnest beacon
my opinion: you can't learn to code in 4 hours, I know there are videos like learn this language in 1h, or 6h but that's not how it worked out for me
@charred summit fax
white karma
You could learn the barest of bare bones basics in that time sure, but then all you have is a pile of bones and no skeleton
grim urchin
You can learn a language in a few hours, but learning a language is not the same thing as learning to program
fiery junco
how do people feel about a "better" more expensive school, verses a slightly cheaper, (around 7k a year cheaper), average/above average school?
Im looking at either a big 10 or ivy school, to an average private school.
college wise^. thx in advance
white karma
Depends on the company, ultimately what matters is your work
wind hinge
Shouldnt coders be able to work all that from home? 🤔
limber rampart
yea, but it's more complicated
if all your clients go out of business, or struggle to pay for your work, you will be in trouble too
wind hinge
Oh i didnt think of that, it is a problem
shadow moss
If you can get into Ivy League and graduate, expense is likely to pay off
Otherwise, state school for you
I’m in marketing group for mega corporate
So yea, job is dicey
vapid jay
Hi
This is likely a vague question
But Im learning python and in terms of a career I was wondering which learning route I should take (or both)
Should I try to specialize in say django and learn frontend too for webdev
or would machine learning be more interesting/prospective?
I was considering both
since both fields seem in demand but also very personally interesting
vapid jay
ml will become a much more fruitful field than webdev in the upcoming years
thanks
this probably sounds silly but
learning django alongside ml wont detract from learning the other
right?
vapid jay
that’s depends on you
grizzled trout
Which MSc would be more promising: Data Analytics or Advanced Software Development?
Is DA a good way to get into DS and ML
untold flax
On a similar topic, does anyone have experience going from a different field to a master's in comp sci(or related)?
grizzled trout
That's what I'm doing currently
I studied Medicine for my undergrad. Now doing a MSc in Comp Sci
untold flax
Ah I see. Yeah I did biochem, which is basically considered a pre-med. Didn't want to be a physician though. How much effort did it take to convince them you were ready to switch fields?
Oh wait
You are in the process.
grizzled trout
It wasn't difficult at all. The MSc is 2 years as opposed to one, next year I specialize.
The first year is basically an accelerated CS bachelors
untold flax
Wow that's really reassuring.
grizzled trout
Where are you based?
untold flax
Arizona right now.
grizzled trout
Okay, I'm in Europe so I'm not too familiar with over there
It wasn't an issue here
untold flax
Well I am sure it can't be too different.
(citation needed)
So what made you go a different route if you don't mind me asking?
grizzled trout
Well I did enjoy studying medicine but the clinical side of things weren't for me. I got into programming during my studies and thought I'd find a career in CS more rewarding
untold flax
Yeah I get that. Being a doctor or nurse is usually a bummer
kind creek
Hey guys this is a general question and I want to ask you all but don't want to ping. I'm in school and I'd like to ask three questions for my research paper if anyone wouldn't mind answering them. I'd really appreciate it! Initially I was supposed to interview someone in the field I was pursuing but with all of the social distancing stuff I can't really do it face-to-face.
It's questions about the programming field and not question/answer things in general.
It's only three general questions, but if anyone is willing I'd be greatly appreciated
tacit vigil
@kind creek hit me up
stiff solar
what level of mathematics should you be at to think about perusing a career in programming ? I barely got by highschool maths and when I'm doing problems on websites like hackerrank.com I just feel like an idiot because a lot of them require some mathematical understanding.
I just also run out of brain power when looking at things like this - https://www.hackerrank.com/contests/programming-interview-questions/challenges/coin-change
is this what a career in programming is like
grim urchin
@stiff solar In my opinion, more math never hurts. Math teaches you how think about and solve problems
Thinking about and solving problems is what programming is all about
zenith inlet
secondly, being able to do algorithm puzzles helps a lot with interviews, but algorithm puzzles are sort of a proxy for general problem solving skill
there are some jobs where in-depth algo knowledge won't help that much, but at least a bit is always helpful to avoid writing inefficient code
next monolith
@stiff solar Math can also be different, if you want to try yourself in gamedev, advanced geometry knowledge is essential, linear algebra is required for ML and Data Science, and mathematical analysis is powerful example of "how to think at problems"
But you probably should not go hardcore in math unless you feel you really need this 🙂
tacit vigil
@stiff solar, I got F in maths, but here I am, a Full Stack Developer with just under 1 grand monthly salary. You don't need to know calculus and that type of things unless you want to be a Machine Learning programmer or a Data Scientist. All you need is the ability to logically think, and the hunger to learning. Never stop learning. This will be the never-ending hustle. As soon as you decided to stop, well you lost. But if you're asking if you can be a programmer, anyone can be a programmer, ANYONE.
Your maths will improve slowly as you learn more stuff.
zenith inlet
imo a lot of math is harder than it should be because of the way it's taught
vast shoal
My hypothesis is that really talented math teachers tend to want teach more interesting math at higher levels. So while I don't want to complain about grade school teachers in general, the math might often end being taught in a more traditional way.
next monolith
I think it depends on your mind, some people prefer theory and they will be OK with all math, but some prefer practice aaand for them it is very hard to learn all this theorems and articles
deep flicker
I had math taught by both "regular" math teachers with degrees in teaching or engineering, and math teachers who graduated in physics and math. The latter group always manages to make the stuff understandable to me, while those teachers from high school or middle school were always not that great and too stuck in the handbook rules
Btw I just started my first job in tech, but doing it from home because of coronavirus is definitely weird
anyone else having to start this way?
shadow moss
Many people I’m sure
opal perch
@tacit vigil If you don't mind me asking, which country do you work in? because 1 grand a month doesn't seem like a lot, especially for a full stack developer, that seems really low?
tacit vigil
I work in Indonesia, which is a lot
We have way lower living cost
Maybe about half or heck even 1/3 of America
next monolith
@opal perch If you are interested, in CIS developers with expirience less than 1 year recieve like 500$ per month and this counts as not bad, for example teacher in school or even university have 200$
opal perch
Ok that makes sense, I was just thinking, that cant be any city in america or europe. But that make sense, that's awesome ricky.
marsh wind
depends on Europe too, if you go to eastern especially non EU 1000$ month is also not bad
deep flicker
and it is kinda weird both for me and the company
@marsh wind how is your onboarding going? I started last week
deep flicker
me as well, feels they kind of either forget about me or have little time to show me the ropes
marsh wind
like the project I will work on is a bit ill-defined, so even the guy who supervises me now is not exactly sure what our end goal in the project 🙂
deep flicker
They're all nice though
deep flicker
Yeah, me as well, project is pretty big and kinda feels like a maze, I did an internship before this in a very small team, lots of projects but all small, and it's very much different
I'm trying to ask for help everytime but doing so by chat feels much more annoying to the receiver than doing it in person in the office.
marsh wind
haha yes I feel you there
deep flicker
You just finished university as well? @marsh wind
marsh wind
@deep flicker not really. I defended PhD about year and 4 months ago
next monolith
@marsh wind Is working when you are on study popular in your place?
marsh wind
ehm what do you mean?
vapid jay
Yo guys , feeling little bit hopeless here . So im self taugh , went for web dev. with python/flask over the course of past 6-7 months i created 3 projects 2 of em where sort of e commerce related things , and other one had a lot of web scraping work with selenium/bs. Now i was wondering to what direction should i set my learning / time what ever i feel little bit disencouraged . I was thinking about moving up to some front end framework , i was working with html/boostrap css and jquery so far... To make this more narrow should i spend more time learning new things and what are chances of getting on some paid gig its not even paid gig id like some experience in the field because i have Law degree not CS one...
next monolith
I mean that you have to had some expierence when you try to apply to job and a lot of students go to IT companies when they are in universities
Such thing is very popular at my country and i was wondering about yours
vapid jay
Now problem is that i come from country that has very little CS / IT stuff involved i doubt i could find anything here...
marsh wind
when I studied for Bachelor/Masters in Ukraine, yes, we had quite some poeple working at least part time while in Uni @next monolith
many however where doing it for money rather than experience so quite often it wasn't very related to future jobs
vapid jay
Crazy i think only moving away from this place would work for me , u turly feel like trapped here ffs
marsh wind
in my case I have not worked during my studies
next monolith
@marsh wind Oh, the same situation in Belarus and a lot of companies hunt students when they had only applied to uni
deep flicker
in my case I have not worked during my studies
@marsh wind I'm about to finish my Master instead.
So I've been hired literally few months before finishing. Only problem is this goddamn virus situation, I'm barely leaving my chair during the day, feels like I'm back to those Skyrim 48h long sessions.
marsh wind
haha yeah yesterday I have "travelled" from the table with laptop to the couch with the ps4 controller 😂
quite a journey I must say
main hound
hey peeps! how do i know if i have enough skills for python junior position? are there any free knowledge tests? can't find any
right now, i'm programming on python for ~a year, perhaps? know vanilla language and OOP constructions fairly well, know CSS/HTML/JS basics, right now learning Django framework and right now is able to make basic projects with django default components such as auth and easy REST API's.
shadow moss
Bon Jovi, it's worth knowing if you are Europe/America because your CEO is looking at those salaries drooling 😉
opal perch
Rabbit, I don't personally work, but yea a european/american ceo would love to pay their workers that little.
radiant moon
@main hound apply; see if they hire you. If they hire you, see if you can get the work done.
semi-snarky, but really that's the only metric
tacit musk
In you all's personal experience, do jobs tend to care about degrees or is it more of them testing your knowledge even if it's self taught or from certificates
burnt tiger
@tacit musk The degree is basically there just to get you into the interview in the first place and assert that you have some basic amount of knowledge. The biggest factors though are your relevant experience, practical skills, and overall software engineering knowledge.
There are many places that won't consider applicants without a B.S. degree or equivalent experience, but even in those places simply having the degree does not at all guarantee you the position.
@radiant moon
semi-snarky, but really that's the only metric
I really don't think that's snarky at all. If anything, you were just being realistic, and I completely agree.
humble shore
I want to link one of my projects to my school's program used to help students find jobs and internships, so should I just put the link to the github repository where they ask for a link?
crystal linden
I haven't even complete that
Sololearn just doesn't work for me, like when I tried to learn CPP as my first language I don't understand anything, the same applies to python or anything else. People learn differently i guess
gj tho!
vapid jay
Any career advice? 21 now, saved up $15k, can continue saving probably $15k a year at my current job. Just recently paid off student loans from messing up ta 18, thankfully it was only like 2k because I went to community college. Not sure how to proceed because I can save up a good $50k in like 2-3 years instead of going to uni. Was always decent at my courses but the debt spooks me because I live in the USA.
white karma
What field are you looking to get in to?
vapid jay
Was thinking about self teaching web development because my job is pretty easy. I get paid for 8 hours a day but in reality it's sort of an on-call thing where I work remotely doing excel stuff. Usually only 2-3 hours a day of actual work.
white karma
Not a bad choice, only thing is there’s a lot of people doing it as well. So the competition is pretty fierce
chrome badger
Yep. Lots of support jobs where you are much less likely to be pulled into active conflict. However, everyone is trained infantry and has the possibility to get pulled into a war zone if need be. Some jobs will definitely keep you out of the bulk of field stuff, yeah, but there will always be some amount of it. @zenith inlet
wind hinge
It was one question that was bothering me, like can i get well paid job without it degree or self learners dont have bright future like that?
white karma
You can
wind hinge
How and where?
white karma
How? With lots of practice and good references
Where? Pretty much wherever you can
gilded valley
There's a post in the pins of a guy who went from 0 to landing a job in a year. Its not easy by any means, but it is possible
austere trout
could you get into software dev/engineering with python? kinda stuck between data scientist and software dev/engineering (have a degree in maths, but particular fond of programming tbh)
gilded valley
Web dev is probably the easiest path
radiant moon
short answer: yes.
Slightly longer answer: Hell, yes.
austere trout
XD hmm
ashen crystal
idk if web dev is necessarily easier for someone who's got a maths degree
depending on their background, something like analyst, with a focus on programming, seems like it could be a much better option
@austere trout ^
gilded valley
I think data analyst is just a different job to software engineer. Most software engineering jobs in Python seem to either be web dev, or working with some mostly esoteric stuff like robotics or whatever - it just seems that its the biggest field
radiant moon
I'm surrounded by python SDEs (am one myself), but we have a couple of Data Scientists ® ™️ and they're pretty smart too
ashen crystal
@gilded valley yes it's a different job, and i'm putting forwards the idea that it might be easier for someone with a math background to get into than webdev i guess
just jobs that have numerical backgrounds as a necessity really
gilded valley
Yeah, I dont disagree - I just realised I misread his message, I thought he was asking for the easiest path into software dev. But a lot of companies don't care what specific degree you have for data analyst positions as long as it had a fair bit of maths in it - so it would probably be easier to go for data analyst positions, I agree
ashen crystal
@vapid jay i don't think so
assuming that you're continuing the above thread
i didn't say anything about data science though did i
mainly because it's a meme and doesn't mean anything most of the time
I said analysis, and possibly beginner analyst at that, all we have to go off is that they've done a maths degree
data science requires more complex algorithms than javascript frontend dev
sklearn goes brrrr
not necessarily at all really
they're different things
gilded valley
The guy is a maths major - I assume he can handle the kind of maths required for data analytics*
ashen crystal
I'm not even talking about DS... it's such an overloaded word. I'm more talking about just getting data and doing basic stats and stuff on it really, maybe a regression here and there if they're feeling fruity
oh edit 🤦♂️
indigo sigil
This is not specific to Python by any means but anyone have any great resources on a roadmap or things to learn in order to get a job as a software engineer? I would appreciate any help.
gilded valley
In the pins is a guy who went from 0 to landing a job. I doubt it's the only way, and I don't know if there's any clear best path, but it's worth a read
white karma
I could use his advice
frigid hazel
Hi everyone,
i'm looking for a developer for a small project involving customer database and biometrics. can anyone help me and tell me where i can find someone
cyan flame
subtle yacht
kinda dumb question but i got an email from my internship place on 24/03 a looong time ago, but i missed it cuz i stopped getting notifications cuz of the spam of emails i got from the coronavirus, the email itself is:
*Hi there,
(Paragraph on coronavirus) (Paragraph on all the remote stuff + measures they took)
I'm writing today to try and strike the balance between keeping you informed and not wishing to overcommunicate when there is so much going on.....we're planning on you joining as planned and will be in touch soonest with the next steps in your onboarding.
Let's stay in touch as we all navigate these ambiguous and unprecedented times together.
*
with the manager of the engineering team cc-ed in, am i suppose to reply and apologise for the loong delay or just take this as an automated email?? probs a real dumb question but i have like no social sense and i really dont wanna fuck this up 😭
sick mist
@subtle yacht just go for honesty. Say exactly what happened, I'm sure they'll understand, it's a wild ride for all of us
subtle yacht
pheww okay thanks mate was just worried since its was sent a while ag
sick mist
That's the golden rule in business: be honest, always, whatever the consequence. Be caught lying once and it will damage your relationship with people a greater deal than just looking foolish for forgetting an email 😉
(and frankly, I still need to see a manager who never forgot to reply to an e-mail)
subtle yacht
thanks for the advice mate, wise words from the wiseoldg33k i see
marsh wind
(and frankly, I still need to see a manager who never forgot to reply to an e-mail)
yeah or sometimes "forget"
shut geyser
since i'm leaving my manager "forget" to reply to all my message
makes me wanna forget to work
subtle yacht
oooft F man
i guess as an (hopefully still?) intern i dont get the luxury of forgetting to reply 😂
shut geyser
yeah
happened to me though, i searched an internship all summer
and after having found one, some weeks before the start
i found that i had answers in my spam folder
subtle yacht
i found that i had answers in my spam folder
@shut geyser oh fuck thats like my worse nightmare
shut geyser
worse i know someone that didn't work for a year after their master, because
they forgot to check their spam folder, where there was a positive reply for her PhD 😂
she never told her parents
she found another one
subtle yacht
they forgot to check their spam folder, where there was a positive reply for her PhD 😂
@shut geyser thats just straight pain
shut geyser
the next year
subtle yacht
it gets worse???
shut geyser
so yeah it happens
subtle yacht
oh you mean she ended up doing her phd the year after
true i suppose damn unlucky stil tho
vapid jay
do you guys think it sounds a bit fishy if the job interview task is asking you to write "production-ready code including tests"
I mean yeah you're testing for a senior developer position but at the same time that smells like you're asking for free code
might also be that this is just the type of task where the testing is relevant to the task at hand to make sure the interviewee is expected to understand what the system under test is 🤔
sick mist
it's a legitimate interview question, and yes, it might be free code, so I'd say it depends on the extend of the code you're asked to produce
if it's solving a generic problem or something which is only marginally aligned with the company's business, odds are low that they're going to reuse your code
if it's "please solve one of our issues on our production system" ... you're in a tighter spot
vapid jay
this feels more like "we would like to have this functionality in the future"
or who knows
sick mist
sharing personal lesson: been there, refused to provide "free consultancy", didn't get the job, since someone else didn't bother and provided
so I'd say if you don't feel like doing it, then don't, but be aware it will reduce your chances to actually work there to about 0 😄
vapid jay
I will do it
sick mist
on the other hand, if you applied, you wanted to work there, so it might be worth giving a shot
vapid jay
but I was thinking about discussing with them about the stringent quality requirements.
sick mist
always a good idea to discuss with them to clarify 👍
but yeah, if eventually they're scammers, you'll have been scammed and lost a bit of your time, but you will also know for sure that working there would have been a terrible experience
vapid jay
they're not scammers. I don't think that's the problem
sick mist
so maybe they're just inexperienced in interviewing people
this kind of practice obviously raises eyebrows, so as much as you can, you should avoid ambiguous situations like this one, for the clarity of your recruitment
vapid jay
I'll bang out the code and if nothing else, I'll have learned a bunch
since it's new territory to me.
sick mist
yep, definitely a worthy approach, you don't lose much tbh
it's never nice to realize you've been played, but if you can at least get some extra learning, might be worth it anyway 👌
best of luck in all cases!
vapid jay
thanks. will work on it!
marsh wind
are you trying to shift away from data science positions?
P.S. I never had such situation but I guess you have to also consider the time commitment
vapid jay
@marsh wind it's on the data science team and we are discussing that I might be doing also actual data science, but given that there's a world-wide economic downswing coming, I'll take a non-DS job for the while being.
but yeah, for me personally it was always the ability to choose between both software development/architecture and/or machine learning
marsh wind
@vapid jay I see. Yeah I think Data Scientist quite often do also a soft dev, when it comes to deploying/shipping solutions
vapid jay
@marsh wind they try to separate that so the skillsets wouldn't need to align since the deployment stuff is pretty hardcore engineering when done right.
but the reality is that the smaller the business, the more they align of course.
given that all results have to be given out in some form or fashion.
the person who has to both administrate the AWS root, SQL database, containerize things, create the models, and deploy them, it ain't gonna be a plain old data scientist.
marsh wind
well yeah. I suppose when it is a large scale app and company you need to separate
and my industry experienece is only 4 days 😂
gilded valley
How have those 4 days been?
vapid jay
I've done both of those things and my experience so far has been that it takes a dedicated person for both roles.
@marsh wind nice. new job?
raven meadow
hi can I chime in on a question?
vapid jay
@raven meadow sure
raven meadow
do I need industry experience to get a job in ... let's say data science or ... perphaps web development
vapid jay
@raven meadow for data science "previous experience" matters more. web development is easier to show through portfolios\existing websites.
gilded valley
You probably do need industry experience or a bachelors degree
for data science that is
For web development its feasible to get there without a degree, but certainly not easy. Have a look in the pins and there's a guy who self-taught over the course of a year to land a web development job; it seems like it necessitates a lot of self-discipline
vapid jay
as for data science, what you really need is to Show, don't tell, just like web.dev. that means to make things public in terms of your jupyter notebooks etc.
marsh wind
@vapid jay yeah, first in industry actually
vapid jay
I messed up my last Data Scientist -interview because they thought I was a complete idiot because I messed up some basic questions... and just interviewed really poorly because the situation was somehow uncomfortable to me. Had I had something visible to show on github or something to talk about, they could've actually asked about those.
and I wanted that job
raven meadow
I recently got exporsure to jupyter notebooks (currently on a basic python learning course on CodeAcademy, and one of the assignments using Jupyter Notebook was a exercise on "make a function on regression analysis" lol albeit simple regression analysis. sigh no job in sight for me in the near future ... as it seems,
vapid jay
technically I didn't answer wrong but I didn't answer them very well either.
@raven meadow live and learn 🤷
it's not something to be upset about.
marsh wind
@gilded valley well it's been fine. People are nice, they immediately put me under supervision of the Data scientists who's been there for some time so I work with him only, but I already particiapte in daily meetings
vapid jay
I'll probably try to apply again in a year or so when I have learned my lessons.
or maybe sooner.
it's not the end of the world.
marsh wind
The project for right now is somewhat not 100% well defined because it's aim is to try and imrpove exisitng solution rather than develop a new one
but it's all quite interesting, so I like it so far
raven meadow
I guess I have to keep trying to ... obtain information. New question: do you think employers are hiring applicants that are sort of just learning the basics of programming. I'm at the modules section of python in CodeAcademy, and I think I just need a little more exposure, and building a solid project like a website I guess. I still have no experience with github, but I have experience with Jupyter Notebook
marsh wind
for how long you've been in industry worldwake?
vapid jay
@marsh wind 4 years approx
marsh wind
Rom, I think people like that they probably only take for internships....
in Data Science positions?
vapid jay
@marsh wind it's messy. I started learning DS the moment i joined the industry so i started more of a system administrator\software engineer\jack-of-all-trades kind of guy and then slowly converged into DS
right now I'm hedging between both worlds.
marsh wind
I see
vapid jay
but my background was in mathematics so it was the 'natural' transition
the math-heavy parts of ML or DS have never scared me.
marsh wind
I see. yeah for me it is also not a big problem
getting experience without a job and the first position is the most challenging part 🙂
vapid jay
that has been challenging yeah.
I'm trying to pass myself off right now as a machine learning\data science professional by selling my services as a freelancer
sent my CV to a few companies that pass on freelancers to companies in need
raven meadow
thanks for the help @marsh wind and @vapid jay
vapid jay
@raven meadow np.
raven meadow
☺️
vapid jay
@vapid jay that's a very broad question
I think I'm supposed to answer: to the best of my knowledge yes
but yes, I have worked as a machine learning engineer (more like ~data scientist) professionally
I'm trying to read what assumptions that question is making
marsh wind
well you'd better ask in #data-science-and-ml anyway
vapid jay
well this def. isn't the place to talk about it unless it's a job interview question
marsh wind
or refer to some ML/DS servers, they exist too
vapid jay
sure.
wanton mica
hello guys maby this isnt the right chat to ask but can someon one give me an idea for what project to make on python using classes
zenith inlet
this might be more a #python-discussion or help channel question
pale pine
I messed up my last Data Scientist -interview because they thought I was a complete idiot because I messed up some basic questions... and just interviewed really poorly because the situation was somehow uncomfortable to me. Had I had something visible to show on github or something to talk about, they could've actually asked about those.
@vapid jay What basic questions did they ask you?
reef marsh
@spare ginkgo We do not allow advertising in the server, so I've removed your messages, you can read it in our rules 6 in #rules for more information or here
!rules 6
inner wrenBOT
vapid jay
How does this sound for a plan for a CS freshman? (going in fall)
Finish up Structure and Interpretation of Programs
Start learning some more math and algos (any recommendations where?)
Golang, k8, docker, js, html, css
Have done a bit of stuff before with python, js, html, css but nothing too serious.
pulsar drum
Data structure, maths, and algorithms all good
Knowing k8s and Docker are cool and useful in the industry but you're likely never going to get anywhere near touching that in typical CS curriculum unless there's some class focused around it
vapid jay
I fully expect to self teach anything useful. Going to community college for first two years due to financials where quality of education is crazy low. Got a 1450 SAT and 3.8 GPA in hs but still not enough scholarships to go to uni.
pulsar drum
That's fine
I suggest you explore different fields to figure out where you want to specialise
vapid jay
Not sure where to actively learn data structures or algos. Math I have a few decent resources. Forgot a ton because I took two gap years.
pulsar drum
You really only need to focus on one language at the start imo
The rest will come to you easily afterwards
vapid jay
Yeah that's the plan.
pulsar drum
I also suggest you get involved in open source
Collaborate with others
Experience working with teams
Learn git
vapid jay
Yeah, I'm posting a lot of scheme stuff from SICP to github to get a feel for it.
pulsar drum
More important than k8s or Docker imo
Data structures and algorithms often go hand in hand
I'd say learn more passively
Like keep up with it a bit every week or something
But if you enjoy it you can be more active
It's gonna be more important once youre going to start preparing for interviews
tender nacelle
Hey, does anyone know where to look for part-time remote jobs? Any agencies or anything? I've been googling for ages but most jobs are either cancelled due to COVID, or web (django) related, and I have absolutely no experience in web-dev 😦
vapid jay
@pale pine I don't remember the precise question formulations but it was just generically about back.prop. and vanishing\exploding gradients
that kind of things.
i got the answers in the correct ballpark but the details escaped me and I feel like that was the problem. or then not. I don't honestly know but I got told later on I needed to give more in-depth answers, which does sound like it.
white karma
@tender nacelle Not a lot you can do about it right now, just keep trying
vague vapor
@grave quartz
nocturne snow
Is paying 120k worth it for a degree at UChicago, CMU or Berkeley?
I can get a free degree in the Netherlands.
I have to decide in like 3 days, but its pretty expensive. I have the funds, but not sure if its a good 'investment' in the current economic climate.
nocturne snow
Won't it allow for things (networking, 3 year working on F1 visa) and stuff that is worth it?
I already have a bachelors from TU Delft
gilded valley
If you already have a bachelors - then the next step depends on what you want to do long term
marsh wind
TU delft is good one afaik. Depends on which Uni in Netherlands
But there are very some in very high regard
nocturne snow
I got accepted to MSC Analytics/Data Science at UChicago, I might want to do a PhD after, but probably just want to go to sillicon valley or fintech
TU Delft is about the same level as CMU globally seen, so my degree is already okay-ish.
But UChicago is #8 in the world, thats different level, but worth the 120k? Man.
Especially now I think its a hard choice due to COVID and stuff.
vapid jay
120k is a lot of money 😐
marsh wind
@nocturne snow if you are from EU snd you consider doing PhD I won't advice to do it in US that's for sure
vapid jay
hmm the ph.d. option is very interesting
nocturne snow
but first getting a graduate degree seems like a good option
since it allows me to look for a specific field of interest
vapid jay
but this really depends on how you want to see your future. the level of education won't be better than in europe but you might make contacts and open yourself more of a way in the states definitely.
nocturne snow
and see if I actually like research as much as I think I do.
marsh wind
You won't know that during MSc likely
nocturne snow
Perhaps.
marsh wind
Unless you get super lucky with master project, it will be nothing like PhD, not even close
nocturne snow
I've done some research on the side during my BSc, and I plan on doing the same during my graduate degree
marsh wind
Overall, I do think getting MSc is worth it, and aside from the possible networking I doublt that UChicago will make huge difference with Uni in Netherlands except 120k$
stoic axle
I did my Bachelor in Europe and my Master in USA - thinking about Ph.D in Asia-Oceania region :)
nocturne snow
Its just such an absurd amount of money.
marsh wind
Plus there is cost of living in US?
nocturne snow
$120k is including cost of living
vapid jay
$120k for how long. 2 years?
nocturne snow
1.25 - 1.5 depending if I get deffered to spring semester due to COVID
1.5 if I go to Columbia
vapid jay
I'm trying to calculate how much your living costs are
nocturne snow
Rent is the absurd thing. Hopefully I can get a $1200/month place semi-close by.
vapid jay
yeah. we're probably talking $25k living costs per year, depending on how much you spend
at least
nocturne snow
yep
All-in tuiton/school costs are about 80k
living + the rest +- 35-50k for the 1.5 years
Netherlands: tuition 2k/yr, living 500/month haha
marsh wind
well it is your call man. But I'd go with staying in Netherlands
nocturne snow
Starting salary US is between 80-120k
starting salary in the Netherlands is about 55-65
marsh wind
there is a lot more to consider than just starting salary 🙂
vapid jay
that's true. you might not actually like it there...
nocturne snow
I've lived there for half a year, I did like it enough 😛
vapid jay
okay
marsh wind
there is living, healthcare, social security, benefits etc
vapid jay
sure
vapid jay
@nocturne snow can you get any student benefits from NL when living abroad?
or does NL even have such a thing
nocturne snow
Ive tried to look at funds or something, but I'm probably going to have to pay for it myself
marsh wind
yeah those kinds of benefits are pretty rare
nocturne snow
As in, my parents are willing to pay for me which of course is huge, but that doesnt mean I want to throw it away
vapid jay
@nocturne snow if your parents are willing to help you financially out, take that.
gilded valley
If you're only goal is to minimax financial income - then EU phd followed by trying to find a job in NA is pretty feasible - its not easy, but you can move form the EU to US in relatively few years
nocturne snow
I think the only reason for it to be worth it is taking into account the experience
And I do think that might make it worth it
nocturne snow
Annoyingly, I cant rationalize the costs
marsh wind
what experinece you mean there?
nocturne snow
I studied abroad in the US for my minor, and much prefered the work ethic/peers etc. Hopefully I can build a graduate degree into a lifestyle which fits with that
marsh wind
like, what prevents from doing EU degree, getting 2-3 years work experince in EU and then start to look into US jobs
nocturne snow
I see that as the experience
Getting a job in the us is much easier when you studied there
With the F1 Visa you can work for 3 years after your degree
marsh wind
ok those details I have to idea bout, so can't comment 🙂
nocturne snow
Haha
Complex stuff, hard questions. Without COVID it wouldnt be so hard, but now its just weird to make such a financially 'stupid' choice
marsh wind
I never wanted to go to US and have quite some amount of peeprs who went and did not like at all
and few who actually liked it and wanted to stay
nocturne snow
Ah well. Thank you all for your valuable insights :)
marsh wind
😉
nocturne snow
Feels like a waste to not accept once Ive been offered admission, but trying hard not to fall for the sunken cost bias haha
marsh wind
also mind that you are getting an advice from a person who never paid anything for the education, not to mention PhD 😉 @nocturne snow
vapid jay
Some serious talk, how can I know how much I can possibly earn with my brain power
gilded valley
between 0 and many
opal perch
What exactly do you mean brain power, and how do you want to quantify it
opal perch
iq test really doesn't show a lot
kindred fossil
What jobs do u actually get for game development?
opal perch
design, software, testing etc?
white karma
Whatever they are they’re not worth it