i applied somewhere and i seen a weird question where you post your cv
#career-advice
shut geyser
something like you have a variable number and you want to have a string sentence
what would you do to have a sentence like "Your number is X."
and i didn't think much and used format
however, they precised at the start
"In python 3.7"
did i just get eliminated because i didn't use fstrings
marsh wind
meh, I think format is acceptable still, as long as you did not use % which is really outdated
neon moat
both format and f strings are the new way of doing things
marsh wind
I saw that fstring result in better performance over format casue they implemented differently, and to me they are more readable. But I know some people like format over them
neon moat
seeing as f strings were introduced in python3.6 seems odd to say 3.7 lol
shut geyser
yeah i know
i checked later
i used format because idk it's easy
if you have 1 variable
to be honest, for the question i should have juste done concatenation 😂
but it's probably the worse performance
neon moat
I wouldnt get too hung up on it. Plenty of good developers out there that dont use f strings
I doubt you got knocked back just because of that
shut geyser
i wonder what kind of question that is
who will it fend
it's not even a python job
neon moat
🤷
marsh wind
but you had oter questions too?
I mean having this as a single question would be weird
neon moat
^
shut geyser
nah just this
to post your cv and cover letter
maybe it's a "are you a robot" thing
neon moat
how do you know you got eliminated?
shut geyser
oh i don't know
neon moat
so you might not be?
shut geyser
yeah
neon moat
Don't get too hung up on it, we are all learning every day. None of us know it all
I once forgot you could call max() on a list of integers so don't worry haha
in an interview
marsh wind
oh then yeah, I think it is kind of a "robot" check rather than something to actually eliminate you
they'd be really dumb to eliminate someone for using format over fstring in such question imo
gilded valley
If you're submitting code online through HackerRank or similar, humans practically never look at it
vapid jay
Where can I find remote internships/ freelance work?
Fiverr is mostly filled up with web development which I don't do.
rare sand
we've used upwork quite a bit where I work, and found some good devs there.
but you may still need to be willing to do web development. it's huge, and a significant part of the python remote work you're likely to find on one of those pages will probably be web-related.
vapid jay
@rare sand thank you. I'll learn.
shadow moss
I'd say fstrings and format are acceptable, print("Hello, my name is " + name + ".") is not
and yes, web work is everywhere, even alot of data jobs involve "web work" as could very possibly be building RESTful API so other developers can integrate with your models
opal perch
remote internships aren't really a thing, but yea freelance work look at upwork
static pond
Sorry just poking around but what's your guys personal favorite freelance sites other than upwork, and freelancer?
modest turtle
i came across a guide in penetration testing that advice us never to use format or fstring due to globalization of input type but to focus on %s or %d... for static description of variable type.
gilded valley
that sounds like it belongs in #cybersecurity or #python-discussion
cinder belfry
format works fine with localization... not sure the relevance to pen testing or of variable types though
vapid jay
Anyone knows a peer to peer university which teaches in India or online . Something like these:
https://www.42.us.org/
https://www.holbertonschool.com/admissions
https://lambdaschool.com/
finite willow
I'm interest in learning Python, but I don't like data science. And I may not be doing web dev with Python neither.
Is there any jobs related to python I could get?
hardy ferry
You don't directly do front end stuff with Python. And knowing how backend works is crucial since it is one of the major ways of having your program interface with different applications. The web dev part of Python is often just exposing some json information.
There are a lot of companies looking for Python developers. What the demand is in your area depends you will have to look this up yourself. And once in it you get problems thrown at you. You don't get to choose which kind of Python problem you have to solve.
Try to deepen your knowledge in Python. Maybe start by doing a Reddit/Discord/Twitter bot. Then make your bot use a database. Look up how tests are written and implement them, make a style checker, bonus points if you start your project test driven right at the start, look into CI/CD, be familiar how to set up venvs, run your scripts, use a versioning tool like git, follow good practices. If you can show these skills you can land a python job more easily. Especially if you have some projects made in your spare time.
What you actually end up doing varies a lot. But it is -in my opinion- a bad mentality to go straight in and exclude areas like data science and web dev completely. You will end up doing stuff you like less than data science or web dev.
finite willow
@gaunt kernel That I'm not sure yet.
@hardy ferry The reason why I exclude Data science is because I'm REALLY BAD at statistic and no much interest in math and stats. Most data science jobs out there even required at least a master degree in stat. So this is why I exclude it. For backend python web dev, well there aren't much Django job in my area, thats why I exclude it...
torpid bolt
django is not the only solution for that, and i would say not to limit yourself to that, if you find a company that uses flask or something else, you can learn the parts you don't know and get up to speed i'm sure.
gaunt kernel
Agreed @finite willow I do not know django and I'm a backend developer
Depends on the requirement
if you can build it in FASTAPI or flask
that's all that matters
finite willow
So if not Django, then how do you call it? Python flask? Python fastapi? What kind of job position title should I look for to land those back end python job?
gilded valley
Backend python developer
meager oriole
I want to work as a python backend developer too!! 4 months looking for it atm, no luck
fluid thicket
What country are you from @meager oriole ?
meager oriole
I'm based in UK
torpid bolt
come before you need a visa 😬
fluid thicket
^w^
Furthermore, Tui moved their backend from dutch developers to south spain's devs
and they are looking for 20-30 .NET devs and are having a hard time finding people
meager oriole
@slate torrent I'm spanish!
fluid thicket
then come back home
fluid thicket
I've seen many entry levels python jobs
fluid thicket
Yes, although they are taken fast
meager oriole
I receive emails from spanish job sites but non of them are junior positions
icy berry
this is not a place for recruitment @fluid thicket @meager oriole
it clearly says so in the topic header
icy berry
well.... it does look like you are. so please dont or change how you express yourself.
fluid thicket
How does it look like I'm recruiting lol
icy berry
come to "insert my city name" the company "insert company name" are looking for "something that is not python" developers and are having hard time finding people. I have many examples of entry level python jobs and ill pass them along to you.
this is not a watercooler channel where you pass notes on places to work, for recruitment and jobs see the links in the channel topic. It is clearly marked.
this is for python and the world of work. now whatever you tried to do.
icy berry
what do you mean by python roles?
meager oriole
if anyone see python roles anywhere posting them on that channel
python backend roles or full stack rolles with python
like job-posting channel
exclusively for python positions
icy berry
we have discssed this in the past.
but have not come to a conclusion on what we want atm.
meager oriole
I'm quite new in this group
I believe is very helpful specially for junior positions
or contractors
icy berry
you can discuss things like, what can i do to get this job.
but you cant say, : im looking for a developer, anyone want this position
we do have a channel called #community-meta where changes to this community can be addressed
meager oriole
understood not open mind for adding new channels here
fluid thicket
come to [insert my city name] I talked about the two main Cities in Spain, which I don't even live in. Only because I've genuinely seen many python jobs, which is what she was talking about.
Insert company name Tui's example was just an anecdotical case where many dev jobs are being created in Spain regardless of stack (I don't even work in TUI)
I have many examples of entry level python jobs and ill pass them along to you. I just said that I've seen many python jobs, I never said that ill pass them along to her, you just made that up.
If I wanted to recruit her I'd just dm her
fluid thicket
Whatever
icy berry
you spoke in a way that looked like something you did not intent on. just take care the next time if you feel this was a miss-understanding.
near tinsel
Holy crap you are a chill dude @icy berry frfr
icy berry
very off-topic is it not @near tinsel ? but.. ermm.. thanks.. 😄
near tinsel
Oh sorry. Just wanted to complement you because you where super respectful above and that’s a skill
rare sand
Recruitment is not permitted here, but if you're looking for a Python job, here are a few resources on the web that may be useful to you:
https://www.python.org/jobs/
https://www.pythonjobshq.com/
https://www.remotepython.com/
Additionally, having a nice GitHub and LinkedIn can be extremely useful, and LinkedIn also allows you to filter on Python jobs and do some job searching. Consultancy services like Upwork have also proven useful for some users to get their foot in the door.
ember flower
nice
sterile vault
Cool link!
vapid jay
anybody got ideas about how to find remote python gigs?
not willing to relocate but need work
unless relocating to some paradise
Become a really good python developer
odd stirrup
Can anybody provide me a way to verify my email in blind app? 🙏🏻
They only accept work email, not the ones that are public and was just wondering if there is a way around it?
vapid jay
@vapid jay I actually had a remote job but it was a temporary thing
so I need a new thing
it was a lucky break and wasn't meant to be permanent
need to try to be a little more professional.
vapid jay
[it's just at some point you cross to the point that you feel like you're so proficient that you don't need to prove yourself at all]
hardy ferry
You limit your job opportunities since a lot of work require you to touch hardware which can't be done remotely. A lot of employers prefer presence since they believe it is more efficient for software development. If you aren't a strong communicator it'll be harder to get a good remote gig.
Maybe befriend a couple of consulting firms. Even they have external consultants. Make your wishes clear. They probably won't have something for you right away but when a project pops up that require your skills they might contact you. You'd still need to prove yourself to them. You will receive less but when you got your name out the employers will contact you directly instead of going through a middleman.
lilac timber
So I'm interning at a startup which is made up of 5 people.
I'm the only person (I'm a fresher btw) who works on everything related to software. The others are purely hardware and work on IoT devices. My main role is related to data analysis (Python), but I had to work on web development (Django), general software development (MQTT, AWS EC2). I have a lot of responsibilities and I'm able to manage so far. The office is in a co-working space so I spoke to a few experienced developers and they taught me to store settings and credentials in a separate file and stuff like that.
That made me realize that I am working without a mentor and that I won't realize if what I'm doing is right or not. The CEO and CTO are not technically skilled to advise me, so I'm all on my own. My internship came to and end and they offered me a full time role but with a one year contract (which I'm not comfortable with). I spoke to the developers from the other office and they are willing to hire me in a few months and they are technically adept. So I have two options and I'm a little confused but more inclined towards working with the developers.
With the current startup
- I have a lot of flexibility to choose languages/frameworks to use. Currently using (Python/Django)
- I get complete credit for the things I've built.
- They will hire a senior data scientist (in 6 months or so) to mentor me.
- They will hire interns who will work under/with me. I'll get the opportunity to guide them but I know I'm not qualified for that.
- My pay might increase drastically if the company clicks.
With the new company (The adept developers)
- I get to work on Web Development, DevOps which I'm really interested in.
- They are planning on moving to data analysis in the future, which would be a nice thing.
- They are going to train me on Python, Django, Vue.js. I am really interested in learning Django.
- Pay will be meh. But I'm fine with it as a fresher.
- The sales/marketing isn't much so they don't get projects frequently. They are planning on improving it
gilded valley
What are your goals with a job? What do you value more, autonomy or learning?
gilded valley
In which case, the new company probably provides you with the best opportunity
lilac timber
Thank you. Also I was wondering, does getting complete credit for a project outweigh a project worked with a team?
gilded valley
I don't think it really matters. You're probably not staying with a company for very long, 2/3 years, so just getting the most out of it for that time of what matters
So credit or reputation within the company isn't super valuable
Just putting in work and effort is what matters
lilac timber
Ah so it all comes down to me, got it.
hardy ferry
Most startup fail. If the startup kicks off the startup will hire more experienced professionals who will replace your code.
If you are sticking with the startup because you believe in its success get (paid in) equity so you own part of the company and thus part of the success.
The most stable route is going with the new company. Familiarize yourself with the people there and talk to them. Make sure it is actually good. Be careful about the contract. I've seen people who wanted to get out since they paid too little but they couldn't because the contract stated that they'd be bound for at least X years and if they proceeded anyway they had to pay back the training cost. Somehow legal in the US, luckily not in the EU.
lilac timber
India here, shit pay and ridiculous contracts.
The current startup offers no stock options. The new one is planning to offer in the near future.
No contract with the new company, and I'm pretty sure the current one will outsource their web development work. So I could possibly work on it with the guidance of the new company (if I join new company).
hardy ferry
I'm not familiar with India contracts. It doesn't hurt to apply to more companies and when you get past the interviewing process and are at the negotiating contract phase you can say you have a job lined up but you aren't satisfied with their offer.
Before signing anything read the contracts thoroughly. They can screw you over hard. Many freshers sign their first best thing and basically sell their soul away. And a good employer will allow you to adjust the contract if there are any funny lines in there.
lilac timber
Will do, thanks a lot
vivid sparrow
I feel like external recruiters are never looking for entry level developers, so accepting to take a call from one is pointless?
shadow moss
depends on where you are located and what jobs those recruiters have
vivid sparrow
Ok. Thanks.
shadow moss
In US, I see Recruiters hitting me up for Jr. Developer Python jobs constantly
despite being massively overqualified in general
vivid sparrow
Oh right ^^.
As unemployed entry level, is it still worth refusing to say salary expectation? After 3 years learning, I kind of don't care anymore..
vivid sparrow
external recruiter on phone
marsh wind
US?
vivid sparrow
uk
marsh wind
hm.... I know in US they advise to avoid answering salry questons on first rounds at all costs, while in france it seems that you need to have something in mind cause if they insist you should answer
idk what are UK practices
vivid sparrow
Ok. Thanks anyway 🙂
marsh wind
also, for your initial question I think there is no harm fin accepting the call
worst case scenario you can have not the best interview experience, but it's still an experienc
vivid sparrow
Ok. I wonder if the recruiter gets frustrated once he learns I've not worked as a developer before.
marsh wind
good recruiter won't. They will bid you a good day and good luck in the search
vivid sparrow
and none of my projects I've worked with a team(all personal)
Ok cool. Thanks for info Lossberg.
marsh wind
bare in mind, I am on the same side as you, unemployed and looking 🙂 so I speak mainly from my interviewing experinece
obsidian acorn
going from the US side, it depends
if you are overqualified, they will be contacting you all day, and sometimes low balling you because they get to keep a percentage, or the whole, or something.
if you are just starting, look at the rate at your area for your position, in the case, entry/level 1 programmer/developer, and find a number in that range
so long as the number you provide is not too exagerated.
you can give them a range, of what would be acceptable, and what would not. so that they can have something to work with. You can also ask them what the range they are working with.
Speaking from both end, sometimes, asking, what is the upper end they are able to accommodate is a good way to go.
@marsh wind
I agree, and as you infer, most of them will pass.
@little apex well, the worst thing that could happen after the interview with the recruiters, you never hear from them again (at least until you get more experience, because they will come back at you)
vital imp
hi
vapid jay
Yolo
vital imp
so i can ask career stuff here?
basically i want to transition to get an entry level python job
but everything i see advertised is senior level
so i do i just bs my way into it? by creating advanced 'passion projects'?
radiant moon
I'd look for an entry level job
vital imp
thye dont appear to be advertised as much
hardy ferry
@vital imp
To get to senior level you need work experience. "Passion projects" won't cut it.
If I were you I would contact the companies directly and ask for an entry position. A lot of jobs are given out without them being inserated. Look up unsolicited application letter and how to write one. These non-inserated jobs are often given to friends or similar. They still need to "apply" for the job in order to have a paper trail but they are submitting the only application for the position. If you can show that your application is much better than theirs HR might employ you instead.
Another route is to become like them. As in ask your friends if they know someone who can give you a job. A lot of people are employed through word of mouth for positions that aren't inserated. If you go this route bear in mind that if you perform badly the guy who brought you in is losing some face since he recommended you.
You could also look up consulting firms. They pay worse but they will put you in many different projects and you will learn a lot.
vivid sparrow
Thanks @obsidian acorn
serene ridge
can i send some books related to hacking here?
fervent oyster
I could do with some advice. I'm a chartered accountant in the UK who is incredibly bored of my job in audit. I've been working with python for years though never professionally and have one kinda finished project under my belt (https://www.dicerrr.com) and many unfinished ones. I have a maths degree and am working on coding challenges on codewars (currently kyu4) to improve my skills. I'm doing a lot of learning on data structures and complexity, and thankfully I covered some big O notation in my degree. I will be practicing live coding interview questions soon. My goal this year is to get a job as a developer at Google - is that feasible for my first role? What else can I be doing?
vapid jay
my 2 favorite signs ☢️ ☣️
shut geyser
Get some insights on how they recruit and train it
They have a new graduate path, where they don't ask you to design a system and you have more coding interview
unborn fable
Not sure if this is the proper channel to ask this:
How does someone 'know' if computer science/programming is the career for them?
I've YouTubed and Google'd this often, and get similar answers but I'm not sure how to feel. If I'm asking this question, does this mean that it's most likely not for me?
fervent oyster
Probably not. Most people who do it enjoy it
unborn fable
Experience joy similar to doing one of my favorite hobbies?
If yes, then I agree that this isn't for me
meager oriole
I disagree with that
unborn fable
With what I said?
meager oriole
I feel the same like you as i'm not experience on it programming but this, is what i want to do in my life. Also, I agree is desperate when you can't find the solution for the error i have
A job is a Job a hobby is a hobby for me
hobby is not for thinking and for having fun
shut geyser
some people have fun thinking though
fervent oyster
Yeah I enjoy solving problems
meager oriole
me too
I explain myself about that wrong
a website done as hobby is not the same as a job
as hobby you decide everything entirely, as job you have strict requirements from the customer
shut geyser
Yeah but i won't do Quality Control for fun on my free time for example
Or filling Word document
I can program both for fun and for work and that's much better in my eyes that having a task you never like
unborn fable
I'm just trying to 'figure out' if this is what I want to do for a living. I'm coming out of a medical career I've been in for 10 years to learn how to program and am struggling so much.
I've been told that if I'm not scoring 100% on all of my assignments that this isn't the career field for me. I have a 78.95 average in my Computer Science I class, and feel stupid lol
shut geyser
That sound like dumb advice
unborn fable
I THNK I enjoy programming? I spent a couple of days trying to fix my code and when I did, I felt so happy. Not sure if that's the "joy" people refer to
shut geyser
Just whatever get you up in the morning
unborn fable
I have to get up to take my kids to school xD
meager oriole
I have that feeling @unborn fable and yes this is what i want to do for living (i'm working as developer)
unborn fable
@meager oriole I'm just a struggling CS major student, on the fence about if I can do this or not. My classmates all finish their coding assignments well before me and sometimes ask how I'm struggling to grasp basic fundamentals.
meager oriole
not everyone has the same speed for learn/ understand things
keep in mind you will do it at your own rythme
never compare yourself with someone else you think is better as you will be better than other in someone else eyes
keep going and never give up
think what will make you feel so proud about your self
that's the main thing and if you don't try it you'll never know it
one example, i always loved to be an architecture(for buildings) i studied that, i start working with that and guess what? I hate working as an architecture and i love it as a hobby
i was interested in computer science, i decided to study that almost a year ago, i started a job 4 months ago and guess, I love it, I love it, I love it!
hope help you with your doubts.
shut geyser
maybe other people don't have kids to raise too erh
they have other priority/mind space probably
meager oriole
i don't have kids
shut geyser
the guy before you talked about getting up for getting his kids at school
i deduced that he probably have kids to take care
because i'm living Sherlock Holmes
meager oriole
yes, everyone has individual problems and responsibilites
that's why anyone shouldn't compare with everyone else because you never know what that person has to deal with
unborn fable
Sorry for late reply, was walking to next class. Your words are indeed helpful, thank you. And yes, I have kids, which does require a lot of my time haha.
ashen latch
@meager oriole true! Love the vision ❤️
meager oriole
Thank you @ashen latch
faint plover
@unborn fable Keep in mind, I believe that once you get over the initial curve things will (I think) get easier.
@unborn fable Where are you enrolled? I am going to enroll at WGU soon for CS.
unborn fable
@faint plover CSU
I felt good until "def" and "functions" were introduced. I feel like I have a fuzzy understanding of that stuff, and now I'm throwing booleans and conditionals into that mix.
Very challenging
faint plover
How do I @ someone with a space in their name?
Anyway, well I think all of that will definitely clarify over time. It takes a while at first. Booleans are a data TYPE. Also do you rember f(x) from math class?
@unborn fable
unborn fable
Eh, I have a math learning disability called Dyscalculia
I've struggled with math since high school and am trying to self learn while in school
radiant moon
I have a learning disability called DisJavaIa
dry sapphire
^ me too
mint citrus
bruh
think pls
how you gonna live in los angeles on 80k?
you plan to live in a closet? (literal closet)
@vital imp
vital imp
i do live in LA
and i dont make any money right now lol
LA is expensive no doubt. but lots and lots of people here that dont make 80k
think pls bruh
mint citrus
ah maybe im thinking wrong. from what ive heard, in cali (around that area) 80k isnt that much
ive been hearing more above 90k
wooden turret
You definitely need to make ok money but people blow cali costs our of proportion for sure
vital imp
the problem with LA is all the SF are moving down here with their high salary demands
driving all the rents throw the roof and beyond
mint citrus
Rent there is high anyways
vital imp
yeah but some areas are under rent control. what the landlords do is not maintain them at all forcing residents to move. then they can legally raise the rent to the new supply of the high tech salary people
so all of a sudden the rents in an area go up 30% overnight
'gentrification' in action
mint citrus
Yeah I know how it is
Is Airbnb also taking over there?
That was my problem when I lived in Berlin
gilded valley
Airbnb is the absolute worst
mint citrus
It is
It's the reason I was homeless for a year
I still had a place to sleep but it was hostels and shit
vital imp
sorry about that
vapid jay
sup cat
mint citrus
Nya~
vapid jay
Can someone help me? Does someone know any organization that help students like me get scholarships?
Studying Computer Science. Thank you!
ember flower
scholarships are national
limber rampart
gilded valley
What country?
mild zenith
@vapid jay If you're already in a university or college, you should be able to talk to student services and they should be able to guide you to the right folks. If you're in high school, you should be able to talk to guidance counselor
molten spoke
Welcome, not the channel for introductions though, say hi in one of the off topic channels!
sonic tide
oh, sorry! I didn't see
upper matrix
anyone from asia here? what’s your thought on companies in Asia?
dry sapphire
Asia is a very large region
upper matrix
Singapore, to be specific
dry sapphire
as it happens, I'm a Singaporean citizen (but currently working overseas)
what do you want to know, specifically?
stuck plover
I live in China but I don't work as a coder
Chinese companies probably won't hire you unless you're Han Chinese? At least in Mainland
upper matrix
ah sorry, never mind, I dont know what I want to know specifically anyway. Got a kinda offer to work in Singapore, not a really good one and I already have an slight idea thru some friends but still considering...
dry sapphire
hm okay some things you might wanna consider:
food is generally good and varied (average 4 USD per meal if you wanna eat cheap, 15 USD for slightly higher quality stuff)
not so sure about temporary housing, but I hear it's around 600+ USD for a room and maybe 1.2-1.5k for a small flat?
culture will depend on what kind of company it is. big tech companies (FAANG-kind) will usually be good. startups will be flexible, but hours may be problematic. I would avoid local SMEs...
city is very, very safe. crime rates are super low, just don't bring drugs in.
vital imp
what kind of level of exp is expected of a python looking for junior position
targeting california area
radiant moon
probably just some college
best way to answer that question, unfortunately, is to get an interview or two
hollow mantle
I've got a question for freelancers. How do you handle time you've spent thinking about work when you're off doing other stuff? Typing is a small part of work (unless you use java) but that's all my time tracker counts.
vital imp
no you bill for that as well
thats problem solving / research + design
probably the only job outside a ho you get paid taking a shower
hollow mantle
The freedom is huge. Love that I can just fly to Italy and not miss any work.
vital imp
well italy is currently on shutdown..dont go there lol
hollow mantle
That's where a project I'm working on is...
vital imp
you gotta bill more then
hollow mantle
I'm not billing for this one, more of a partnership. We'll see how it goes lol
jolly pagoda
any computer science majors/currently employed or freelancer software devs?
i just want to ask some questions about your work if you've got a minute or two
radiant moon
well I'm a currently-employed developer, but I don't have a CS degree
jolly pagoda
could I dm you real quick
radiant moon
no
jolly pagoda
That's okay thank you
radiant moon
feel free to ask here in the channel -- if it's not personal (like: how much do you make) I'll probably answer
jolly pagoda
Well I'm looking into becoming a software developer myself but I'm not too familiar with the work itself
radiant moon
less writing code than you might expect
jolly pagoda
yeah?
radiant moon
well, in my case, anyway; we do pretty much everything -- we write code; we write tests; we manage our own servers; deployment automation ... all kindsa stuff
at a tiny company it's probably similar (I work at a huge company). A middle sized company, though, you might specialize
radiant moon
get in before my lazy slacking co-workers :)
read some mail, catch up on text messages
continue struggling with whatever not-necessarily-code-related problem I was working on yesterday
do some code reviews
meeting
lunch
more meetings
maybe figure out whatever I was doing, and submit my own code review
more meetings
if it's Friday, drink 🙂
that's quite literally accurate
once every month or so, take my laptop across the street to the help desk, because it's doing something crazy again, or I've forgotten the password to that one buncha servers that I hardly ever use, or ...
jolly pagoda
I see
didn't think about meetings
what careers do you think I could start from to get there?
radiant moon
I don't see why you'd need a preperatory career
just get an entry-level programming job
jolly pagoda
I thought you'd have to start off doing something like IT or database management
What would I need to get into an entry-level job?
A specific skill or programming language?
cosmic crow
im 16 rn and i live in Massachusetts, USA. My dream job is to work at the google in Boston (about 2 hours from my current home and about an hour from the college i hope to get into (this may not work out but thats the plan so far)). Anyone know if a starting salary at google would be enough to survive in boston? I know im 16 and this probably won't work the way i hope it does, but if everything somehow goes perfect, will i live a good life in boston, ma?
radiant moon
@jolly pagoda you'd need ... whatever skill the employer wants 🙂 Being good at a single popular language like Python might be enough
@cosmic crow I don't know, but I assume, that even a starting salary at Google would be plenty to live comfortably
they pay a lot
of course the downside is they won't hire you unless you're pretty damned good
cosmic crow
i remember being told by google (i went on a tour there) that if you are one hell of a python programmer or one hell of an x programmer in one language, they will make a spot for you :) but thats google, probably different for other places
radiant moon
glassdoor can probably give you an idea of their salaries
cosmic crow
yea thats the worry and why im starting early
jolly pagoda
@radiant moon thank you so much for your time I really appreciate it
cosmic crow
i went to a summer program at the college i dream to get into and i got to visit google there and take a comp sci class (just one, but something) and i feel like that is huge considering my age, as in it may help get other jobs, maybe even related to tech
rustic charm
given that you are a devlishly good programmer, google starts out around 120k and offers stock options at 20K/year) @cosmic crow actually did an interview there and I passed the interview but didn't do well enough on it for a spot
cosmic crow
at google in boston or google in general?
rustic charm
google in San Francisco
cosmic crow
SF cost of living scares me, i dont ever want to live there as nice as it seems it would be lol
classdoor says 86k-210k/ year for boston and i asume starting i would make around 90k in boston, not bad for right out of college
if i could somehow get to work remote which i doubt, but if it were possible that would be nice because i live 2 hrs or so from boston and its a really low cost of living here so ofc if everything stays the same and goes perfect which it probably wont, that would be the dream
highly unlikely but you never know
rustic charm
also keep in mind - you need to be insanely good at whatever language (hopefully python ofc) to get a job there
so start challenging yourself - i started building building discord bots. and everyone i built got weirder and weirder with harder things i wanted to accomplish. since a bot allows you to focus mostly on your backend (the functionality) you don't have to waste time focusing on where the heck that button came from in your gui and why the text is on the wrong side of its container lol
cosmic crow
yea i have made a few really basic discord bots, like ones that can ping an author of a message with a certain message based off what they typed, very basic but something
i have just started to understand OOP
so now i understand what a class is, what a method is, etc
i struggle to find projects that are reasonable however
like it seems its either something really basic like a dice roller or something like "make a calculator with a gui" which doesnt seem hard until you realize i would have to learn a whole library dedicated to gui's, id rather take it step my step rather than mountain by mountain
so far with OOP and GUIs i have made a small button that changes label text in PyQt5
rustic charm
i personally do not like GUIs whatsoever. im a backend developer - and its served me well so far
like I said, when I was learning, I used discord bots. I made a command that replied to me. Then I made one that replied with an embed. Then i made one that sent an image. Then i made one that read text from a file and sent that to me. Then one that played music, then one that scraped web pages and sent me tag data, etc
i kept getting more and more complex with them, its a very versatile platform imo - and easy to learn on. read the documentation for it, and check out some of the packages python has to offer on its own documention (i.e. the ones that come included with python) and start incorporating them into your builds
proper dirge
@rustic charm Was/is creating discord bots your primary way of learning python?
rustic charm
i taught myself a lot about the fundamentals that way. got me into it. went to uni for software development and that taught me way more than i could've taught myself
but iirc the person who was asking was 16 so in 2 years he could stand to learn a lot from working on small manageable projects such as dpy bots
proper dirge
I wish I had learned software development at uni. Instead I got my BS in cybersecurity, passed a few certifications blah blah. Thinking about going back to get MS in software development
I dunno if that is worth it though.. im more interested in learning design patterns, ways to approach specific problems with code, data structures etc
rustic charm
i currently work at a data center as a night network tech
proper dirge
which would almost require getting another bachelors
rustic charm
i kinda wish i would have gone with cs cuz i love my job
i get to be around massive computers all day, and whenever we upgrade a rack unit, they do auctions where we can buy off the parts
proper dirge
I agree, shouldve stuck with cs. On the bright side, information security people generally make more money than software engineers at least straight out of college
I did an internship awhile back where I was in a data center most of the time. Surprised they let me, an intern, mess with switch ports
viral ridge
@cosmic crow ,you are very young so you have much time to learn
either go into college orat least. Your data structures and algorithms game, that is what will get you into google
*Or at least start acing
torpid bolt
a lot of devs don't have CS degrees, so don't feel limited to that, a lot of the things you learn in these are very fundamental and not directly used very often, you don't write a parser/compiler on the job, and you don't write your own quicksearch either, design patterns are learned rather than taught, so don't got take 3 or 5 years of courses for that.
build stuff, read other's people code and question what you don't understand, compare practices and designs, learn the tools of the job (VCS (git), IDE, linux command line…), learn to read documentation and ask proper questions, and you can be a very good dev.
but yeah, to get into google, you certainly need to brush up on the algorithmic and data structure stuff, learn about the various kind of sorts and their big O complexities, the differences between lists, linked lists, binary tries, heaps, and when to use them.
even if in practice you'll rarely use these things directly when you do python, sometime using them properly will make millions of $ of difference a year at the scale of google.
grand vector
O:
stable fern
@urban sphinx are you backend?
stable fern
What are some tips you can give to someone trying to get a dev job from zero, in 1 - 2 years?
urban sphinx
most of the code is database number crunching
all areas need programmers, so if you can enter the company and people see that you know programming they will probably offer you a programming position
this goes beyond the development area of the company
I'm expert in making quick solutions that work before the company's official TI can standartize everything
and for that python is king
stable fern
It’s been the main language you’ve used in your career?
urban sphinx
yes, I was lucky to adopt it before it was popular
my first python version was 2.2
before that, I programmed in C and pascal
stable fern
@urban sphinx gotcha, thanks a lot
urban sphinx
everybody was java this java that, I started making my python toolset
vital imp
@urban sphinx
all areas need programmers, so if you can enter the company and people see that you know programming they will probably offer you a programming position
this goes beyond the development area of the company
how do you 'cold call' a company with this proposition? how do you worm your way into a job like this?
radiant moon
that sounds overly optimistic
my local nursery probably doesn't need programmers
nor does the supermarket, high school, gas station, &c &c
novel crag
Also, I've developed an application to help those who do my job calculate volumes of pipework and velocities required to flush water to ensure good water hygiene.
I've had a significant kick back from IT programmes, any excuse to not allow me to be recognised for the application or see it on our mobile systems.
It isn't just as easy as just being a coder, your face has to fit as well. Furthermore, if you walk in with no degree you're almost an insult to those who do have degrees.
Sorry about the rant, just wanted to get this off my chest I s'pose.
vital imp
thats nonesense
there are many places with people with all kinds of degrees or non degrees
novel crag
It's not nonsense, it's anecdotal.
vital imp
well okay, then that particular culture is nonesense
novel crag
I'd agree, yes. It's a utilities company.
balmy mural
If you walk into a company whose HR has no experience working with programmers, they'll likely not take you seriously if you don't have a degree to back yourself up, however there are a lot of programmers with no degree, and it's not a slap in the face of someone who has a degree if you cold call to try and get a position.
novel crag
You're right.
vital imp
politics is why i like contracting
novel crag
By the way, with respect to a specific programming language, do we tend to see lots of self employed web developers over say python scripters or c#/.net programmers?
For arguments sake, if you were to go out on a limb and be entirely self employed, what toolkit would you want to be proficient in? With the idea of securing quantity of work.
vital imp
when you contract its more about solving very particular problems for people
you really have to be a jack of all trades to get a gig don
novel crag
Upwork looks cool, thanks.
novel crag
Ah yeah, I suppose that's the crux of it.
vital imp
but i guess if you get good there you really can work at anything
but like today i saw an offer for some scraping off several websites, put it in google sheets, send alerts by email, update stuff on AWS, etc,etc for like $100
honestly, i think some day job programmers just outsource their own tasks there
if you have your bills paid, and arent looking to make money initially its a great training ground
novel crag
Hey can you tell me what sort of brief that scraping job had?
I'm just looking to understand the complexity of a job worth 100$ or so.
radiant moon
even if I knew how to do all those things well, I imagine it'd take me a couple of days, or even a week, to do it
so I'd charge $4,000
NEXT
novel crag
Ah ha why'd you say that? Surely if you had a generic beautifulsoup script it'd be printing money?
radiant moon
if I had a script like that, then everyone else would too
balmy mural
And there's the big difference between first world and third world countries. For $100 I'd easily be willing to work 2-3 days on that
novel crag
Really good point
vital imp
the real issue is the amount of time you spend communiating with client
if they are picky, want changes, etc...the flat rate $100 is always always a loss...but a gain in education
novel crag
Do any of you kind gentlemen know anyone without a degree background who entered the workplace as a junior dev?
I just want to get a rough idea for quality of portfolio so I have a short ruler to measure everything with.
vital imp
ive been working tech for 10 years with no degree
ember flower
The companies are lacking developers so I would say yes
novel crag
What would you look for in a junior developers portfolio?
vital imp
im in sort of the same position as you as im learning pythong
what i will do is first get the fundamentals down with a number of books. then do some self interest projects to feel more confident in myself
then i will just see what things jobs are asking for, and find the right path to learn them and also projects related to them i can study and adopt
github is replete with all kinds of projects..so ill just pick apart this put together that and that will be my growing portfolio
maybe thats the long route, but its the way i can feel confident and has a lot of training wheels under me
novel crag
Sounds good to me. What sort of things have you in mind at the moment?
I would like to achieve these two things: Build a website in django that allows for users to search for keyterms in a dataframe of words and frequencies scraped on a particular twitter feed. Then it appends to a graph.
Secondly, I would like to make a bug tracker with django
Not much else comes to mind, apart from the fact I saw a project earlier by someone who's designing a portfolio who did a pretty cool autohotkey sort of thing where you'd type in like $hello and it would print an email template out for you.
cosmic crow
ive heard that if you major in comp sci, you wont necessarily pick up a programming language. Is it true that you learn things such as math, problem solving, time complexity, data structures, algos, etc rather than a programming language? if so it seems those skills set you up to learn a language very easily.
if i were to major in comp sci and coded in say python in my free time, would i be prepared for a job? we can assume the worst and say i have no connections nor experience through internships
fervent hamlet
During my BSc we were taught algorithms, data structures and the lot, but they were taught using Java as the language for application, python was also taught to a beginner level, barely covering oop
Friends that also did Comp Sci were taught other languages like C++/C, so it depends on the university
You could just learn the language you want on your own time tho
Im actually thinking of picking up c++ for finance related careers
cosmic crow
i see, so you will learn a good amount of whatever language they use to teach the class, i will do some research on college i might go to and see what they teach
language wise^
why do SWEs tend to major in comp sci rather than SWE? it seems to me SWE would be a better major but companies and SWEs tend to have majored/ want a ccmp sci degree
torpid bolt
Yeah the point is usually to learn the ideas rather than languages, though of course you need languages to build the projects/exercises.
fervent hamlet
Ofcourse dont expect an undergrad course to make you an expert in any language
They'll barely get over the basic stuff
torpid bolt
I would agree, most things you learn in computer science are not that useful in day to day jobs, while engineering techniques (like program design/architectures) are more often critical (than data structures and algorithms), so people tend to learn them later on the job, by doing it wrong a good chunk of the time.
fervent hamlet
Doing stuff wrong all the time is a mood
onyx pendant
Hello everyone, i have an interview for the costumer service position for microcenter tomorrow. They told me i will have to take a 10 minute math and logic test. Does anyone have any sample problems i could practice on? Thanks!
torpid bolt
Maybe project Euler stuff. https://projecteuler.net/
vapid jay
Computer Science is just a weird degree overall tbh
It's more like an engineering degree with a different outlook on math that tries to teach you the fundamentals of things that you can really only learn through trial and error
cosmic crow
i was watching some of the free MIT courses from compsci on youtube and learned a lot from just 2 videos
one of them was about algorithms and improving them for faster time
they went from a 13s o(n) or something which took 13 seconds to run to o(log2n) or something (i forgot the exact names) and it took .001 seconds to run, it was pretty cool
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtSuA80QTyo&list=LL1b2tDpmJsjPc9AGCk28uPg&index=2&t this is the video im referring to
thick shale
Yeah merge sort, binary search... etc which got great Big O value.
shut geyser
@onyx pendant maybe it's just simple logic math test very fast. I got some of thoses. It's kinda bs and they shouldnt select on this. It's just used to justify HR decision afaik. So if you don't fit the HR can go like "but they passed the test "
onyx pendant
Yea thats what im hoping. Im not a very good test taker, especially when its on the spot
shut geyser
You'll be fine, it's really if you make 0 everywhere that they don't take you
According to HR practices i've witnessed
wanton elk
is it a good idea to get into AI?
i mean how hard it is to find a job after college
pay compared to other careers
things like that
gilded valley
What do you mean by get into AI?
wanton elk
studying it
im a sophomore in college atm
so i have 2 years left ahead of me
but i dont count on our syllabus because they're very basic
gilded valley
Its worth taking some units in the area and seeing if it interests you
wanton elk
so I'm self-learning for the most part
gilded valley
The right thing to do depends entirely on you and what you want to do with life
for example, do you want to do a masters or PHD?
are you genuinely interested in the field, or do you just think its a good way to make money?
wanton elk
I don't think i would be motivated enough to go for a PhD tbh
i like the concept of AI itself
gilded valley
Also, where in the world are you based?
wanton elk
and automating things
I'm in egypt, but im counting on traveling as soon as i could
dubai, where my dad is, is most likely
gilded valley
Then you could look at job postings there
and see what options you have for when you graduate
and decide if you think its worth investing the time and effort into AI
wanton elk
do you think it's a good field to work in?
gilded valley
I have no direct work experience with it, but I am doing a Data Science degree. I think its probably roughly on par with normal software development work in terms of "good to work in"
wanton elk
i like it, but you know some fields are tougher than others
gilded valley
But masters degrees and especially PHD degrees are very highly valued
untold flax
On the topic of PhD's. I'm 23 and will be finishing a biochem degree in 3 semesters. It's starting to hit me that dedicating 6 more years of my life to a PhD is probably not something I would like to do. Is it too late for me to pick up useful coding so I may be involved with bioinformatics and other biology jobs related to data science? I am well aware a degree isn't even needed, but will CS majors/Data Science majors/Bioinformatics majors harshly outcompete me in the job market? Maybe this is a no brainer, but I have seen highly conflicting answers.
wanton elk
i was thinking about going to germany for my masters when i get my bachelors
gilded valley
@untold flax No, its very much not too late. There are lots of opportunities for people from stem backgrounds to move into software development. You could do something like a conversion masters into computer science if you want a formal CS education, or you could self teach and apply to normal graduate/junior positions
Lots of companies don't care if you have a cs degree, or some other stem degree - as long as you have something semi relevant
untold flax
Well now, that's wonderful to hear.
Or uh...read rather.
I guess I have a ton of work ahead of me then. Thanks for making me aware.
gilded valley
I think lots of other corporations have similar things (this is just the only one I know about), JPMorgan have a "TechConnect" scheme specifically to hire non cs graduates into software dev positions
untold flax
Would you suppose I take any opportunity I could get, or should I really focus on something related to my major?
And I mean that starting out.
@wanton elk Hopefully I didn't interrupt your question.
gilded valley
I don't think you need to focus on something related to your major, but the right path is definitely entirely dependant on you
torpid bolt
It's certainly a lot easier to not limit yourself to your field, most demand for CS is not in science, let alone biochem specificaly, and you don't usualy need to be an expert in the field you apply the programing to, you have to learn about it, but you ask experts if you need to anyway.
untold flax
I still find my field to be very interesting, but you make a good point. I should take up other positions and work my way into a more interesting job.
ornate stag
Hey guys I am applying to Microsoft
I am mailing the recruiter she knows me and she is awaiting my message
That I must send in like 3 hours it’s 5 am now lol
Can someone please help me out??
gilded valley
What are you actually asking?
ornate stag
I have two mails dude I need to decide
Which one to send
Like to do I go all guns blazing saying why I am the greatest and deserve the job
gilded valley
Probably remove personal information and paste them here if you really want opinions. I'm not entirely sure how wise it is though
ornate stag
Like showing off my accomplishments
Or....
Do I play the nice guy and only ask what is required
gilded valley
What is the context here? You're applying to MS, but at what stage in the recruitment process, for what position?
ornate stag
Like a short and sweet mail?
I am applying for Ms explorer
I am freshman lol
But can I dm ?
gilded valley
well, you can't DM me
and this server doesn't generally reccomend DMs for this sort of thing
ornate stag
Ohh my bad it’s just that I really need someone to vet my mail before I send it
I have no experience in the past so I am really scared imma blow my shot
Omg someone help bro
fervent stratus
if you don't wanna blow your shot, seriously, its paradoxical to be panicking over the very thing you want to succeed at
ornate stag
Damnn that’s intense
fervent stratus
I'm okay with that, but you might want to edit the profanity..
ornate stag
Ohh sorry
gilded valley
There's no need to do this via DM. You're more likely to get better advice by posting a single message explaining your scenario and options here than you are by DMing random people. You said you have 3 hours, so there is no hurry
fervent stratus
Thanks for clarifying, @gilded valley . I'm new here myself.
ornate stag
Dude I have an 8 am class too dude so need some shleep
Dude but I can’t show the mail in public
fervent stratus
That's okay, take a deep breath or more
gilded valley
so explain the tone and attitude of the different emails is my suggestion. And provide details for the things I mentioned earlier
Where in the world are you based? What is the position you're applying for (no idea what ms explorer is, google doesn't know either)? What stage of the recruitment process are you at? What is this email about?
ornate stag
USA Baby I won a hackathon to get this opportunity to send this mail
It’s about me and why I need the job
Along with a recommendation from employee from hackathon
So it’s important I am not sure if I want to go guns blazing or just chill sup?
I think I am just going to go all in
gilded valley
I can't really give any advice. The US culture is pretty different to the UK culture with this stuff
ornate stag
If she thinks it’s too much don’t care
fervent stratus
Perhaps not why you need the job, how about how you'll be useful to the company?
fervent stratus
"Not caring" tends to communicate recklessness.
Not sure if a company handling international customers wants someone reckless in a dept. other than QA.
You seem to be very passionate, put that in
ornate stag
Guys I just read my mail and it’s perfect
fervent stratus
How will you use that passion to further the compay's goals?
ornate stag
That’s how passionate I am
fervent stratus
Alright then.
ornate stag
So I will speak about my love for and
MICROSOFT
Thanks guys
The deeep breaths helped
fervent stratus
Oh, keep people in mind
ornate stag
Soooo muchhhh
fervent stratus
How you handle people.
Being willing to help others, bring them up
Pay it forward, like we have you
If you get this job, good luck dude
Hope ya make it!
fervent stratus
Who's trolling?
static breach
Boredom
fervent stratus
Ah, alright. My assumption was that he was merely inexperienced with the job market.
marsh wind
Hey there. Does anyone have an idea of what kind of 'use case' are usually discussed during technical data scientist interviews?
gilded valley
Sounds terrible
what does it actually mean though?
is it just two days on site, or is it like a take home task?
shut geyser
Nah home task, build an app
15h is too much imo
how do you split your time to sleep
gilded valley
that sounds silly to me - unless it was a fantastic salary, or a fantastic company, I wouldn't touch it
shut geyser
it's a weird deal
like 1 month bootcamp + 1 day training every week for a normal salary. You stay 13 months for them and try to get hired by their clients
but 15h is a lot of time commitment on a single day
rare sand
did they actually ask for a 15 hour commitment?
or did they just say "solve this take home task, deliver it by this deadline"?
because there'd be a huge difference between these two, imo.
some people here seem to think take-home assignments are always a terrible thing, but I personally am quite fond of them. it's how I got my first job as a dev, and can provide a very meaningful opportunity to impress an employer.
I would gladly spend a weekend writing a small app to impress the right potential employer.
but I would find it very sketchy if the employer absolutely required 15 hours invested in a single day. sounds completely outlandish
depends what you need it for. I was answering @shut geyser
did you have a question?
vivid sparrow
To ask a question. I'll wait then
rare sand
it's probably okay. what were you wondering about?
vivid sparrow
Recruiter: "role for client working alongside brightest minds in AI.. react and python experience... discuss further?"
Me(no industry experience): "Sure, if it's entry level."
Thoughts on my reply? The thing is, if I say, yeah I'm interested in discussing it further. I have to take a 10m phone call that will always end with "oh, I don't have any junior positions available atm". Above reply saves time?
gilded valley
Does 10m of your life really matter that much? It seems best to just take the phone call no matter what to me
rare sand
I also lean towards just taking the call.
vivid sparrow
Well not really, I don't really have a life. But in the past, the call always ended that way so I thought It would be more optimal to avoid it.
Ok. I will take the call then. Thanks very much both
gilded valley
The worst case scenario is you waste 10m. The best case scenario is the guy on the phone likes you, and makes a position for you
vivid sparrow
well it's 3rd party recruiter.. hes not gonna make a position for me.
hm, he might have a position for me tho.. Sry I spammed your answer to other person's question off the page lemon..
meager oriole
I used the only day I had as holidays to go to an interview that it didn't go successful. did i waste my time? i don't think so as if i never did that probably i lost the chance for a good position
what you'll do if they ask to you to make a simple task as you might spend a week for that? you will lost the opportunity to get the chance because you're saying that your time is more important than your future?
rare sand
don't worry about that, that other person can scroll
vivid sparrow
Thanks Debbie. Ok.
rare sand
even a failed interview is an opportunity to hone your interview skills
meager oriole
totally agree @rare sand
gilded valley
I wish there were more opportunities to improve at interviewing without having to go through an entire application process
vivid sparrow
Ok. Not gonna mention the entry level stuff. I always do on the phone though, I can't help myself. Not a good liar.
rare sand
it's probably best not to
meager oriole
I'm on an entry level
so yes, I can talk about that
If you need to lie that means you don't have even the basics
is better being honest
gilded valley
I think honesty in interviewing is about being sincere and not lying. But that doesn't mean you have to highlight your flaws
rare sand
if they want you for the job, they'll offer you the job. Trust the process. There's a big difference between lying about your background and skill level, and starting the conversation by saying "I am only good enough for an entry level position", it doesn't come off as super confident.
meager oriole
agree with the opportunities comment too @gilded valley
vivid sparrow
Thank you for all the advice, you people are very kind 🙂
rare sand
that's what we're here for.
shut geyser
@rare sand from what i understood, they give you an app to make and you have to deliver 15 hours later. "But you can do it in 10 ahah"
and then you have to present it to lead dev and argue and stuff
rare sand
if the app can't be done in, say, 3-4 hours max, then that sounds fairly unreasonable. it depends entirely on how complex the app is.
shut geyser
idk, a FAANG Interview is 5/6h not 15
rare sand
usually my take-home tasks have had longer deadlines. 3 days to a week.
shut geyser
15h of my free time is a lot
rare sand
it sounds more like a 15 hour window though
which doesn't mean you have to spend all 15 hours
but like I said, if it's a huge task, then yeah that sounds kinda unprofessional
shut geyser
they said "but the more skilled do it in 10 h"
rare sand
ehh
shut geyser
so i don't know how to feel about the time window
and as a window 15 h is weird cause hurh, sleep?
rare sand
okay yeah I think that sounds far too intense. I'd be highly skeptical to the kind of work environment that company would have.
shut geyser
i think it's a stress test for first months
rare sand
if they expect devs to work 15 hours straight before they even join the company, that's kind of a red flag.
shut geyser
i dunno for which client they recruit could be finance
yeah that's what i was thinking
i'll apply to more stuff anyway, their next opening is in August and i'd like to have something in May at worst
gilded valley
From what I hear, the recruitment process is pretty indicative of the company as a whole. If theres lots of hurdles, the company is very bureaucratic for example
rare sand
that's probably often true - but sometimes it just means they used a headhunting agency that is quite expensive.
the fancy headhunters always have a million steps in the interview process
gilded valley
Well, from Ember's description it sounds like this is recruitment for a 13month long training weird training scheme thing - and if they expect a lot of work now, it doesn't seem like a great organisation to me
rare sand
totally agree
but I'm just saying, the company I work for right now used a recruitment agency that made me jump through a billion hoops, everything from intelligence tests to personality tests to hackerrank stuff, as well as multiple interview stages and stuff like that. But the job itself has been really relaxed, very little bureaucracy, lots of flexibility and freedom.
shut geyser
yeah sometimes they are weird
i had those weird psychotechnic tests entering
my current position
my recruiting company was very stressed about them lol
gilded valley
thats fair. I've done enough online tests now that I just instinctively dislike any company that does them
rare sand
it's so dumb. I actually failed my personality test twice
and the recruiter had to instruct me how to answer it
fervent hamlet
lemon sociopath confirmed?
rare sand
"don't pick so many high or low scores, try to stick to the middle. if you disagree with something, don't rate it a 0, rate it like 4"
gilded valley
oh wow - I wonder if thats true for most of them? I practically always put extremes
rare sand
if you have to instruct someone how to answer the personality test for it to work, your personality test is garbage
mild zenith
Or the employers expectations are
fervent hamlet
extremely disagree
rare sand
I'm an opinionated guy, so.
meager oriole
can i ask for the country you are talking about?
mild zenith
I've never noticed that about you
rare sand
Norway.
shut geyser
yeah, it's mostly to show you're not opiniated and you bend in case of conflict i think
which reassure employer
rare sand
naw, it was just a bad personality test.
fervent hamlet
I thought employers would prefer people with backbones
shut geyser
nah
rare sand
my employer has hired many highly opinionated devs, and it works well for us.
gilded valley
I've only applied for internships, and I've done a bunch of personality tests
in the uk as well
rare sand
just because we have strong opinions, doesn't mean we're unreasonable.
shut geyser
Most employer are like "we want to hear your opinion"
"Can you stop being so pessimistic and bring so many problems?"
they want to hear good opinions :p
meager oriole
I always tried to do a constructive opinion
I did interview trainings with teachers
like theatre
shut geyser
me too, but you're always budging the status quo if you talk about stuff that is not working or working well, depending on your company culture, it will irk/make people uncomfortable
meager oriole
and it worked for me as after that, they give the opinion of what you fail and how to improve it
i did for construction roles but the interviews we represented were more focus on the general questions
we needed to dress up even like it was a real interview
it wasn't just teachers they had experience as interviewers
rare sand
We use this where I work https://officevibe.com/
It sends out interactive questionnaires to all employees every week or two, and the questions it sends out are randomized so nobody gets the same questions. Then you can answer these questions either anonymously or with your identity attached.
Most of these are like, rating something on a scale from 0 to 10, but if you select strong answers or answers that deviate from what your other coworkers are saying, you are asked to elaborate on why you feel this way. And this starts a sort of chat with the relevant leader. The leader doesn't know your identity, but can answer your feedback and ask for more details
every week at the all-hands meeting, we go through feedback received through this system and discuss improvements.
so the organisation attemps to be continuously improving based on this feedback.
rather than scheduling a single annual conversation with each employee
rare sand
it's quite a nice system, and I feel like the company really does take the feedback seriously, which I guess is the key to this.
nobody would use it if they felt like it didn't have any effect.
gilded valley
What scale company do you work for? I'm guessing not a massive corporate?
rare sand
a scale-up.
we're the leading company in our sector in Norway, currently expanding to China and the UK
marsh wind
Hey there. Does anyone have an idea of what kind of 'use case' are usually discussed during technical data scientist interviews?
uhm, anyone have an experience, maybe? 🙂
marsh wind
P.S. On topic of personality test, condifence and etc - it sometimes really plays against people who don't understad their value or are opionated. My colleague from the lab told about the guy who had I think very prominent imposter syndrom case, so he totally failed his interview but something ticked in the person who was interviewing him and intead of rejecting they contacted the guy's supervisor who said that he's just very shy and does not understand his skills and etc. ANd he did get a job
shut geyser
Another interview for a normal job this time :)
fervent hamlet
Man impostor syndrome is a real bitch
But by now people should know that personality tests are a game and how to play it
marsh wind
by now people should know that personality tests are a game and how to play it
meh, not really
gilded valley
Theres practically no good resources out there for learning the right way to play them
especially as its dependant on specific companies
its like playing a card game where no one tells you the rules
fervent hamlet
Just pick any politics quiz, like political compass
Questions are similar
And try to game that
gilded valley
I'm not sure if you've done personality tests recently
but theres no obvious outcome to some questions
and its not obvious as to what outcome a specific company might want
I can't remember a specific example. But amazon has stuff like Which statement do you agree with more? I like spicy food, or I enjoy reading fiction
fervent hamlet
I guess i havent recently no
But, if its this kind of questions, you can easily guess what the employer would want you to pick
gilded valley
The ones I've done don't look nearly as clear as that
much more abstract
Each of those has a pretty clear side to lean towards
fervent hamlet
The example you posted looks to me like amazon is just trying to be a cool hip company to attract millenials
And then they put a chain collar on you
gilded valley
No, another company I've done them for(Schroders asset management) had the same idea. And speaking to friends applying to similar stuff, it seems pretty common
fervent hamlet
Well thats just sad
How do you determine personality from food taste
This is just some pseudo science shit
sterile vault
I think some hip psychologist once published that stuff in his blog/book/article
A lot of young HRs read it and wanted to do the same
shut geyser
Amazon does this kind of test ?
fervent hamlet
Bruh even the official sounding tests like Myers Briggs is BS new age pseudoscience
shut geyser
Those stuff is just to justify HR decision
So if someone doesnt fit they can say they passed the test
fervent hamlet
I dont get it, its a workplace not a social club
Only requirements is whether you can pull your weight
shut geyser
Works requires to work with other humans
gilded valley
I think Amazon does it as an automated filtering stage for some positions, which kinda sucks
fervent hamlet
Pulling your weight includes proper communication, but youre not there to make friends or get along
shut geyser
You can't pull your weight if you're not able to express your ideas and don't get a few buddies to get your back
sterile vault
Even good workers can fuck up because of their personality
shut geyser
Idk work relationship are relationship
fervent hamlet
@shut geyser that sounds wrong tho
shut geyser
You work better with people you get along
fervent hamlet
Good ideas shouldnt be ignored because some guy is buddies with more people than you
gilded valley
They obviously shouldn't be, but its the nature of humans that they will be
sterile vault
For example, on my (non-IT) work we had a guy who just didn't go to work one day. When we finally contacted his mother, she said that that guy decided he simply doesn't want to work.
gilded valley
What kind of level of work is this? If its like retail or pizza-delivery then I get it
sterile vault
No, my boss, because mother answered his phone instead of that guy. Yep, we have a lot of students.
gilded valley
oh wow, thats fucking weird
sterile vault
Laboratory technicians, medicine
gilded valley
Thats actually kinda funny to me. I'm now imagining the conversation where I'm asking my mum to tell my boss that I quit my job
shut geyser
Mom, they can't even write test, can you tell them i quit please
Anyway, politics gets in the way the bigger the company is. Having a good team helps advancing
gilded valley
If I just didn't care about a job, I'd just stop going in and not answer the phone to work - no way on earth would I get someone else to answer it.
sterile vault
"Friday, 23.00. 13 missed calls from "Senior QA"
shut geyser
The loner type can work in academia maybe but with difficulties
sterile vault
TBH i can't imagine working as loner in academia also
shut geyser
I have an exemple from my promotion where a brillant guy was top and had a very hard time during internship cause none of the labs wanted to work with him
gilded valley
I dunno - I'm not that socially awkward, but I'm definitely perfectly happy to just live/work on my own
Kinda sucks for me that its not a good way to get on in the world - but that is the way it is
marsh wind
TBH i can't imagine working as loner in academia also
nah there are quite some amount of people who are loners or close to that. And they can be fairly successful
shut geyser
I enjoy both, working for a team definitely motivate me more than working alone
marsh wind
but still those who are able to work in team and then build one will achieve way more
gilded valley
Oh, if it comes to working in a team I enjoy that, but from what I see even if you're part of a scrum team or whatever, its pretty easy to just get on with work and not spend too much time with others
like you might be part of a team, but you're not necessarily working as a team
shut geyser
Another anedoctical evidence from my last lab where a brillant guy got funding for his own team but couldnt retain post docs and phd more than 3 months
sterile vault
BTW, what was your lab's specialisation?
shut geyser
It's mean but it was hilarious since the guy was a dick
If you're talking to me it was human biology, working in pharma now
sterile vault
IMHO freelance should be awesome as a loner. Dat caffeine -> code -> money pipeline.
gilded valley
Doing freelance effectively seems to necessitate being good in social interactions
the best way to earn money is by working closely with clients
shut geyser
That requires strong social skills to not get isolated too
gilded valley
and meeting new clients
sterile vault
Oh, cool. How do you use python in pharma?
sterile vault
I think i already asked you about career prospects in bioinformatics once. Bachelor in biology, but couldn't get far in academia.
shut geyser
Reporting/some pipeline
It's more used in Research afaik either in rd or drug discovery
I do clinical trials which is the boring part
All analysis are made on SAS
Can depends on the company though!
sterile vault
I'm currently trying to get a job in academic lab, where i can do some entry-level bioinfo projects (and maybe do masters). Industry positions (as always) like to look for already experienced candidates 🙂
shut geyser
You need a job before your master ?
sterile vault
Well, i like having money for food and rent 🙂
shut geyser
There is a lot of bioinfo position but i don't know any techniques myself. So i don't really know what's important.
sterile vault
NGS data processing pipelines are the most common grunt work, i think. Not even programming - just running the tools (usually via Linux). But i don't think it's sufficient 🙂
shut geyser
There is a weird spot in bioinformatics where, i feel like biologist and bioinformatician/computer science can't talk to each other
I've seen some bioinformaticians also that didnt seem to know a lot about biology and not a lot to computer science ir good engineering practice
It's a weird spot
sterile vault
Well, i always though a bioinformatician as a guy who can ask the biologist what he wants to calculate and explain it to CS guy who is actually capable of buiding, say, high-performance cluster.
shut geyser
Ah maybe
sterile vault
I saw a quote from one of the top bioinformaticians, that he got in bioinfo because he wasn't too good in math 🙂
For a pure math career
shut geyser
Biologist tends to be very bad at math in my opinion and i've seen a lot of miscommunication
Ahah
I guess half full half empty
One of our bioinfo guy in my last lab gad to explain logarithms to a revered PI with multiple achievments and distinctions
Then thoses guys tell you that analysis is great or that other is great...
sterile vault
Technically, biologists should be capable of linear algebra, statistics and differential equations. In practice, "use it or lose it" applies and unless you get into say, biophysics, the most complex math you use is basic arithmetics for solutions.
shut geyser
I have a master in biology and i never seen linear algebra in my cursus
And differential equation were maybe first year/highschool
Statistics we have, but the number of people using it correctly was very low in my experience
"You click the button on graphpad and it tells you what to use"
sterile vault
Well, we had some in 1st year. Though watching 1 hour youtube video about matrices gave me 10x more info than whatever remained in my head.
fervent hamlet
Friends that do biotech dont have a lot of maths in their courses either
Which is really weird
shut geyser
Most used maths is just divisions for t
Your dilution :p
I had a fight with my PI about some correlation on two measure, where one was calculated from the other
sterile vault
And for that you pre-calculate needed amounts for a standart batch with a calculator 🙂
shut geyser
Ofc they would correlate
dry steeple
Hi, I only really have one question
Does python have any useful application to a cyber security based job?
radiant moon
I would expect so
it's a programming language. Cyber security people probably write programs once in a while.
shrug
dry steeple
I understand that
But some jobs require knowledge of specific programming languages
Just wandering how useful python would be in cyber security, and if not what I should turn to
austere stirrup
Thinking about it in terms of "is x language good for y" is kind of a noob trap. If you learn python, you will learn concepts that translate to other languages. Python would definitely facilitate building the type of projects you'd eventually like to show off in your resume (whatever those may be.)
dry steeple
Thanks man, really appreciate the advice
austere stirrup
np
radiant moon
@dry steeple Why not find a job posting and see what languages they mention?
shadow moss
our security team looks for python/go/ruby experience
but you don't write a ton of code
onyx pendant
@shut geyser my interview with microcenter went pretty well today. Test was easy, im sure i answered at least 85% of the question correctly. I also have a an interview with fedex in 2 days, just incase microcenter doesnt hire me
shut geyser
Nice @onyx pendant :) good luck!
onyx pendant
Thanks
ornate trellis
Hello!
I am currently looking for internships and my friend can refer me to the company that he is currently working in.
It is a credit card company. My friend wants me to learn Flask, Python, and Django. I am currently learning Python through "AutomateTheBoringStuff" since I have worked in python before so, I am not facing any problem in learning it.
I am finding for a road path to learn and develop some projects in these languages so that I can put them in my resume.
craggy wave
For Django, a good start would be the official tutorial in the documentation. The documentation for Django is excellent and, if you're already quite confident with your Python, it should give you a good jumpstart.
ornate trellis
@craggy wave Thank you! What are some good projects that you've seen built on django?
inner wrenBOT
ornate trellis
The website looks beautiful and intuitive
I used C#+WPF and developed some GUIs as a beginner, but found front-end very much boring.
open patio
our front end uses bulma and backend with django, but this isn't the right place for this discussion
ornate trellis
@open patio Where can we talk further?
open patio
an off-topic channel would be fine
vital imp
so im getting into python. looks like im most intersted in processing text. so what kind of career path or jobs should i target
coral bronze
which country/countries have good opportunities for cs jobs ? for example is germany/french good
marsh wind
US, UK, most western/northern EU countries @coral bronze
pretty much in any big enough city there are lots of opportunities
gilded valley
London, San Francisco, Zurich, and other cities are all seen as global tech hubs
vivid sparrow
Is it a developer, working at a company's, job to come up with money making ideas?
radiant moon
sure, at least, sometimes
if I came up with a money-making idea, I imagine my boss (and their boss, etc) would be delighted
it's not -required- though
at least, not at my job
vivid sparrow
Cool. Thanks.
cosmic crow
so i notice big companies such as google right, they have thousands of employees. Of course they have a TON of products but there is still a good amount of employees to one project. When i went to google in boston i believe they said there were about 20 engineers working on google flights. I have never worked on software with a group of people nor do i know anything about software structure and deployment etc, i would say im the bottom of intermediate as i am starting to understand OOP.
question i have: is there a need for so many engineers to be working on one product or is that just an effeciency, get things done type of thing?
dusky heron
Yes and no. It's mainly an efficiency thing. I can't speak to Google (they probably have their own weird system that they'll abandon in favor of something else in a couple of years) but the majority of development teams that I've worked with follow the agile software development lifecycle. Tasks get broken down into very granular efforts and distributed amongst the team. The more people, the faster things get done... in theory.
cosmic crow
so they split it so each person has very little work but i assume a lot of their time is spent optimizing code and making it faster, code reviews, etc right?
well little work in comparison to the entire thing^
dusky heron
In a lot of cases, less work, more meetings 
cosmic crow
i see so when engineers at facebook or google or whatever say they are coding for 8 hrs a day all the time with meetings in between, most of the time is probably spent optimizing their code and the like or will it really take them 8 hours to do their part of the project?
dusky heron
Depends on how good the scrum master is (again, in agile environments). A lot of times, the guys I've worked with spent maybe 20% of the time writing actual code. It's kinda awful. However, these big tech firms like Google and Facebook will work their guys to death. So maybe they are writing code 8 hours a day... out of a 14 hour workday.
cosmic crow
i see, sorry if i sound like ignorant or anything. just curious as to why they need so many engineers on one product when the same task could be done with much less
dusky heron
Nah, don't worry. Full disclosure, I'm not a software engineer. I mainly do security. A lot of my job has been wrangling developers and adding security requirements to their workloads. Not always a fun task.
Everyone is ignorant until they aren't. Nothing to apologize for. You're trying to learn. That's all that matters.
cosmic crow
yea im only 16 so the most work ive done with a group is... explaining basic html to my friends at school when we had to make our own sites LOL
but it was all front end, no back end or anything, it was an individual project
dusky heron
Look into how software development life cycles work. A lot of time is spent outside of developing initial functionality. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=software+development+life+cycle
You're way ahead of where I am. I'm twice your age and still an idiot, lol.
cosmic crow
lol, thank u for the suggestion, currently watching a video on it rn
dusky heron
That's why this community is here. There's a lot to the software engineering field beyond just writing code.
harsh patio
What tools do you guys use to compare an offer to another city?
I have an offer and I’m having a hard time figuring if it’s a good deal or not, honestly
shut geyser
Glassdoor mostly
There is some tools to compare cost of living between city
So you can deduct your monthly pay, from this cost.
And see what is left for you
torpid bolt
I've seen a dev team on a project go from 3 to 12 in a few months, and the number of features worked on in paralell, as well as the delivery cycle, increase dramaticaly as a result, but sure, the meetings and stuff took a lot of time from developing, despite complaining, i'm sure we were more effective than previously.
celest bronze
Quick question, is it worth it to go to a nearby aws summit? Currently I'm a final year student and there's a summit about an hour away, I have no idea what these things are like and if it's even worth it for me to go?
vapid jay
It comes down to whether - you have anything to lose, whether you can afford to get there and back, it would be nice to meet some people, get some contacts and figure out your prospects.. You could always brush up a little to have a high level overview of what it's about
smoky bobcat
@cosmic crow there’s actually a YouTube that popped into my recommended who is an ex google engineer. He said most of his day and probably almost everyone else’s didn’t really have too much coding happen during the work day. They mostly spent it reviewing others code and also making design docs for features and having meetings. If you ping me to remind me when I go on my lunch break I can probably find the video he talked about it in
vapid jay
Hi everyone,
What do you think of using this roadmap for acquiring skills?
https://github.com/MrMimic/data-scientist-roadmap
I am trying to gather sufficient knowledge in order to work in a data/programming field
vapid jay
@vapid jay this is nuts
@vapid jay In a "this is an awesome roadmap you should follow" or "this roadmap is not really valid" ?
the repo itself, is organized and doesn't have that much depth, so it's good for an introduction to concepts
the actual roadmap graphic is too much..
when you work as a DS you apply industry knowledge to come up with metrics and/or improve processes, hypothesize outcomes, do visualizations to support business process, or work on building ML models for specific applications
each of these domains is vast on their own and require specific skills..
for example, if you worked in banking, finance or insurance, it would make sense to be familiar with Hadoop.. if you were doing algorithmic trading, you would also have background in finance + programming skills + ML
what I'm saying is.. pick an industry, then follow the path.. but as an introductory course, you can absolutely get familiar with everything here, in two weeks..
just to understand.. what's used where and how
cosmic crow
@smoky bobcat oh yes please send if you can :)
smoky bobcat
@cosmic crow https://youtu.be/oHBFD8cfXho
Was able to find it easier than I expected and before my lunch break lmao
sturdy hawk
How bad does GPA from high school affect getting a job as a software engineer
I don’t have the best gpa and I’m worried for the future
gilded valley
Your university/college will matter a lot more. And I don't have the best understanding of the US system, but I think you can still get a solid degree without great high school grades
and what matters a lot as well is work experience and what you do outside of formal education - i.e hobby projects on github, volunteering, and internships
sturdy hawk
I’m a freshman now and my gpa is 2.7 and I’m just really stressed about it and I try my hardest but can’t bring it up and I’m worried that it will affect me a lot later on
gilded valley
freshman in highschool?
sturdy hawk
Yes
gilded valley
This seems like the kind of conversation that would be best to have with someone who can get to know you better than a stranger on the internet, a guidance councillor or similar.
But if you're set on becoming a software developer, and you're passionate about that, then you can probably still do it despite poor grades. The path of getting an associates degree at community college, and finishing your bachelors at a normal university is still open to you. You will still have to study for that, but it will be study more closely related to software engineering
and the easiest path almost certainly involves trying your hardest during high school
I have no idea what your school is like. But speaking to a teacher you know/like, or someone else and explaining your situation that you're trying your hardest and still struggling is probably an important step to take
sturdy hawk
I try my hardest and I’m willing to put time into becoming a software engineer
I’m just worried that my bad math and science class grades are going to really negatively affect me later on
gilded valley
Studies have shown that maths is like anything else, the way you get better at it is by putting in time and effort. I get that it can be frustrating not knowing the answers, but sticking at it is important. I really think future you would be thankful to current-you if you managed to get your grades up, probably the way to do that is by speaking to your teachers, or asking your parents to speak to your teachers - about the fact that you're still trying and not getting good grades
but grades definitely aren't necessarily a measure of intelligence or worth, its not the end of the world if you can't get them up
sturdy hawk
Okay thanks for the help
thick shale
I think it’s more important to not be afraid of math and algorithm than be “good at it”. It’s a bonus if you’re good at it but not being good at it is not a disqualifier in my mind. Heck I’m learning big O stuff now myself. The important thing is that you are willing to put in the time to learn it and practice it
torpid bolt
I shuffled through old papers today as i'm packing/moving for a new job, and i saw my old grades from end of high school and then university, spoiler alert, they were not great! I barely passed at every step, and still, i'm now having a quite successful career, of course your mileage may vary, and i really wish i took more of the learning opportunity when my time was supposedly dedicated to that, but it doesn't seem like it prevented me from making it :).
gilded valley
I failed a year of high school and am now doing a degree, doing poorly academically is not the end of the world - but life is probably easier if you do well
harsh patio
Do you guys have any suggestions on WHEN to negotiate a job offer salary? For example, I have a final interview for a company while I have a standing offer for another. Should I try to negotiate NOW with the one who gave me an active offer and re-negotiate if I get a second offer, or wait until I know about this second job before attempting any negotiations?
shadow moss
If you are going to college, your HS GPA won't mean much
your college GPA will only matter for new job, after that, no one will care
gilded valley
It doesn't mean much, but it is still relevant. In the UK, I've seen companies have A-Level requirements for grad jobs
shadow moss
sure, at entry level, it will matter because there is nothing to eval on
after that, it's likely to mean less and less until 3rd job when I'd rip it off your resume
ryuhphino, once you commit to salary, it's not great to negotiate again
just take higher paying job
harsh patio
Well yeah but I can negotiate the offer
So just trying to figure when to negotiate the offer
As soon as I have it? After a second offer? Both now and if a second offer comes in?
shadow moss
So Company A has extended an offer and Company B is in final interview
harsh patio
Yes
shadow moss
You can negotiate with Company A now, once negotiation is over, even if you get higher offer then Company B, just decline Company A and if they ask why, say "I had better offer", they may try to re negotiate or move on
but be set in your mind to move on from Company A
so if go ahead and wait if you want but Company A may move on
We only give 4 business days for offer then it's revoked
so unless final interview with Company B is tomorrow, I'd start talking to COmpany A now
and Company b could take a while even after final interview
harsh patio
Yeah company B is tomorrow but company A gave me only a few days
And they did mention they have other candidates so it seems they aren’t wanting to wait too long
shadow moss
I'd say talk to company A now