we have lost two potentially good that were like "Pass, I don't need to do your test"
#career-advice
shadow moss
ColdEmber, when we hire Jr, sometimes we drown them to see how they swim
not a fan of practice but it happens
and cheating is rampant in these tests apparently, not sure why anyone cares, they are quickly caught during in person test
shut geyser
Well i performed much worse than my public code so erh :p
That show how honest i am!
we have lost two potentially good that were like "Pass, I don't need to do your test"
Yeah i know people doing this
The answer is approximatively " i don't want to work for a company that test how fast i can use preset/templates rather than how i think"
Something around those lines
torpid bolt
it's good that people do that, if you can, you should.
companies need to question their recruiting process
quasi surge
if you're asking me to do some hackerrank to check if I can code or am talking out of my ass sure why not
shadow moss
and testing environment we operate under is bad
we finally had one of our developers take the test on the sly
quasi surge
but then some german startup asked me to create an entire CRUD app in 3h with Angular and a Python backend
shadow moss
no internet
quasi surge
I had better things to do
shadow moss
Seto, did you do it?
quasi surge
no
torpid bolt
It can be a good idea to ask for real work to evaluate a potential recruit, but it should be compensated somehow.
shadow moss
that basically makes them contractor at that point
in fact, in US, you could end up in trouble would be my guess
marsh wind
I had positive and negative experinece with online timed test. negative was when the test contained a bunch of semi-theoretical python question with like 30 sec to answer it. Things that can be easily googled and you don't really need to remember, and probably won't remember unless you took a full python course during some degree or something, or been coding in python for a while. Those question were followed by practical tasks, aka to write some code snippet, which I did well, but overalll score probably was low bcs of those first bunch of questions
halcyon plank
Hey! Do you guys know what is an Embedded Software Engineer?
torpid bolt
yeah, they usually have to care a lot more about memory constaints, details of cpu architecture they are working with, read specsheets of the chips they are working with and making talk together
https://www.youtube.com/user/eaterbc/playlists does a lot of explanations/introduction about this aspect of programming, teaching the core concepts of computer science by building computers from the parts.
(it's a very very good channel if you want to understand how the magic in computer come to be)
pulsar drum
halcyon plank
So is an Embedded Software Engineer a better version of regular Software Engineer or something?
And is it in demand?
torpid bolt
it's not about "better" it's a speciality, that's all
i think, they usually need less careful consideration about communicating with external systems for example, the systems they build are more self-contained, it's different constraints
marsh wind
I would guess that those who are good at it will be higly valued as they are probably more rare. But I am not sure there is equal demand as for SWE/SRE
I don't have numbers, but that would be my guess
halcyon plank
Oh okay
torpid bolt
there is probably demand for it in this iot age, but certainly less than regular SWE yeah
shadow moss
They also tend to use lower level languages
Like C and C++
That’s changing with hardware being more robust
vapid jay
!ask
inner wrenBOT
kind creek
So I’ve just bought a new laptop specifically for software development and I’m wondering if I should dual boot windows/Linux with it so I can start trying to learn Linux. Does having knowledge of Linux systems help a resume? That may be a broad question but I’m just wondering if it’s worth investing the time to learn it.
indigo sleet
It can do, but it'll depend on the places you apply for
But Linux experience never hurts to have
kind creek
Okay
zenith inlet
@kind creek you can use a VM instead of dualbooting
if you're on windows 10 there's also WSL but idk if its available on home editions of windows
kind creek
Yeah? I’ll have to look into that then
zenith inlet
or how good it currently is
a VM might be slightly slower in some cases and it might be a little kludgy to make files from outside it accessible within it
hardy briar
okay, what to focus when studying data science?
zenith inlet
depends on what software you use
kind creek
Hmm okay.
zenith inlet
WSL doesn't all;ow a full x environment by default iirc, but check up on that
kind creek
I’m going to do some research on it this evening. I may just end up dual booting either way
The laptop has a 1TB drive in it so I may just allot about 250gb for it
But ok thanks @zenith inlet . I’ll try to redirect this over to Linux chat
zenith inlet
tl;dr: if you want to do web development against a linux base machine but don't need graphics, WSL may be good enough, and very easy to install. If you need a GUI but are ok with slower performance, a VM is fine. If you need native performance, install natively
also don't run big machine learning tasks on your laptop if you can help it
kind creek
What do you mean?
zenith inlet
it won't be efficient as laptop GPUs tend to be weaker if there's even a dedicated one in the first place
- other reasons
zenith inlet
that might not be compatible with ml frameworks, idk if ATI support has gotten better. @kind creek @hardy briar both of you might get better info about your questions in the dedicated channel for ML / data science
hardy briar
ok @zenith inlet sorry
zenith inlet
np
vapid jay
Do you guys think I could make a tech company if I'm passionate? Ie the next Google
radiant moon
passionate, smart, knowledgable, hard-working, honest, and lucky; sure
torpid bolt
add "very" in front of most of these words, especially "lucky"
well, honest i'm not sure that's a requirement
radiant moon
I like to think it helps
torpid bolt
i do hope so, but i'm not very confident that's the case 😬
radiant moon
oh I missed the "the next Google".
Of course not.
I'd have said the same to Larry and Sergei, and that would have been the right answer then, too.
torpid bolt
that would have been "the next Microsoft" back then, and for Ms it would have been "the next IBM", so it does happen, but it's not just talent and hard work, luck is a very big part of it (assuming you also have talent and hard work of course)
radiant moon
at any given time, there are maybe two or three big companies that people aspire to ... and about one billion aspirers. There are your odds.
compact perch
well they have the term the big 4... so you might be 1 short. next Yahoo might've been more fitting
radiant moon
well your odds just went up by 33%! Congratulations
torpid bolt
nobody wants to be the next yahoo 😄
(ok i guess that's success enough for almost everybody, i certainly wouldn't complain)
compact perch
I think when google started it was what they were pitched against. Not part of the big 4 obviously.
radiant moon
I think I was using AltaVista when I heard about Google
torpid bolt
a lot of people were
compact perch
Yea thats the other one I was thinking of but Yahoo was bigger no? off to check
k yahoo bought them so essentially same thing alta became yahoo
owned them after google took over , I'm getting timelines messed up
shut geyser
The fall of yahoo is always fascinating
vapid jay
Not me.. I totally knew it was going to shit
radiant moon
I used to be a happy user of flickr
hushed jungle
Would a masters in stats be looked at as well as one in computer science?
hushed jungle
Well I'd like to get into data science
marsh wind
Then stats degree will be regarded highly. Especially if you can do some project or thesis to have more experience direct related to data science
hushed jungle
OK cool. Thanks for the reply
sterile vault
Anyone here works for healthcare/pharma? Basically, where biology degree is considered an advantage. What's most important in building the portfolio for entry-level jobs?
shut geyser
I do
It depends what you aim of course
There is a lot of data handling
But from my own experience if you don't do lab research, technologizs will be kinda old
Lot of SAS/Excel
Lab research can be more fun with python invading biostats and other data science jobs
sterile vault
Basically, branch out of "wet" lab work to more software-based career without having to go through phd.
Thanks for your insight! I would prefer to avoid working with legacy tech, since it would probably make me a one-trick pony (even if a very good with excel pony).
What are you suggestions for one wanting to break into biostats but having no relevant networking?
shut geyser
Erh it's difficult
Your best bet is data science since you have stat knowledge and have a understanding of what they study/language scientist talk/sequencing techniques or whatever
But you'll be competing with people having real biostats degrees
And fresh out PhD that maybe had the same idea than you
Me i.went into pharma since during my PhD i had clinical experience and programmed too
But erh it's not the most fun, industry side is very risk averse, very regulated
You push more paper than you program from my own experience
sterile vault
Thanks!
Not very reassuring, but hey, who said that getting a good job would be easy.
What would you suggest as a portfolio project that can be finished by myself?
For data science, i mean.
shut geyser
hmm do something related to the research you're doing in your master i guess?
i don't work in datasciency thing, i just take care of clinical trials :p
will you be doing an internship maybe?
sterile vault
Unfortunately, i couldn't enroll in masters degree right away (hope i'll be able to).
So, for next half a year, i'm stuck working (non-bioinfo related) and self-educating.
Getting into medicine (PCR diagnostics, precisely) as a biologists pays the bills, but career growth requires medicine degree. And that's a can of worms i don't want to open 🙂
vapid jay
I wanna make my own company dedicated to making apps, personal assistants, and new technology. No doubt its gonna take a few years for me to do that, but is it possible to base all my projects in python or will I have to use something else?
torpid bolt
i would say definitely possible in python
i would say tech is not going to be the hard part
shut geyser
PCR results needs analysis !
torpid bolt
defining products, marketing to users, managing sales and growth, listening to feedback and iterate on the product(s) but without losing focus on the aim and getting stuck in scope creep
finding funds to develop products and recruit help, managing human resources as well as legal obligations, and continue developing the company and its objectives, that's the hard part imho
heavy plover
That just sounds like SalesForce @vapid jay
dry sapphire
how would you, as someone in a hiring position, view a person who had been in a relatively highly-placed instructional role for a while and wanted to return to being an engineer?
cosmic crow
anything i can do at 16 to make my future easier and possibly add to a resume for my future? general question but just seeing what i can do now to help my future the most
fervent hamlet
LinkedIn, Github profile, start with small projects, join a society
volunteer
go to uni if you can afford it
cosmic crow
by society, i dont exactly have anything like that near me but maybe a coding bootcamp? or something of the sort would be similar?
and volunteer could be like interning when im in uni (do plan to go to uni)
fervent hamlet
yes, basically try to network as much as you can
the thing i regret the most from uni days is not doing an internship
cosmic crow
alright, makes sense, i went to a summer program for the college i want to go to and i got to go to google and meet some people so i feel like that helps massively
river totem
how experienced would you have to be with a language or framework before considering listing it on your resume, in the context of being for a first year internship
dry sapphire
well, I would say that more important than experience is competence
in terms of what you can actually do
(if you meant experience in terms of time, as opposed to having used specific tools/libraries)
river totem
well yeah i mean what you can do with it
like how competent would you have to be with it
and how much would you have to know
dry sapphire
okay, so for example, something like SQL...I would expect one to be able to create a table and query it
basic stuff like select, insert, delete, groupby
mighty mango
wait is that actually good enough to put on ur resume?
dry sapphire
for an internship...I would say so?
like for a junior data analyst, how much SQL would you need to know to be able to do your job?
gaunt grove
I have questions for anyone great at networking for career opportunities
marsh wind
!ask
inner wrenBOT
marsh wind
Gratz
modest grove
@shut geyser is interview question that hard
I'm still studying so never got a change to see how interview process actually work
shut geyser
It really depends on the company
shut geyser
if you interview at Google or some meatgrinding hiring company, you won't have the same kind of test
Usually @modest grove you can try to read their Glassdoor for interview process, also when you contact HR, make sure you understand the process and ask questions
indigo sleet
The channel topic has a couple places you can seek jobs at
modest grove
@shut geyser ty for the info
mellow agate
@tall blade advertising isn't permitted, as per rule 6.
tall blade
sorry about that
heavy plover
@shut geyser yeah, I think it's good to always prepare for FAANG and apply to one per application season if you're looking for a new job
Like, if you're prepared for a Facebook or Google interview you're probably prepared for anywhere
I was last time but the company I wanted to work for wasn't ready for my salary requirements 
shut geyser
I prepared for Google and failed in November
Here it's some known company
I thought i sucked at their home test but from what the recruitzr told me "it runs"
Now they want to know why i want to go from clinical to their company but i have a ready speech for this
A true speech even
shut geyser
Because it's months lenght process that is really demanding
gilded valley
Even so, if you can be rejected at the CV stage, you may as well apply to all, and then withdraw from all but one
assuming you make it past the initial CV filtering stage
which isn't all that likely for a lot of people
gilded valley
Normally you're expected to write a cover letter and modify your cv to the position
is my understanding
at least thats the case for intern positions
shut geyser
Yeah but that's what, i assume, Snazzle meant by preparation
gilded valley
Ok, sure. In that case I misunderstood him
But I still think depending on your current position, its reasonable to apply for multiple
shut geyser
Their interview process are usually whiteboards exercice
gilded valley
depending on available time, and how well you deal with that kind of stress
shut geyser
So you need to be good at basic algorithms
But also talk about it while you're solving it
Explains what you're doing and why in a clear manner
gilded valley
I kinda dislike that about interviews. I feel for a lot of things I could explain more clearly if I just wrote down the words explaining intention
shut geyser
It's a skill you train
gilded valley
Yeah, I guess
shut geyser
In meetings you'll have to be able to clearly state what you're doing
gilded valley
I've only done one interview like that, and I was mostly ok
shut geyser
I suck at it btw
gilded valley
In meetings, you're not generally explaining the details of a million different edge cases
and you've prepared specifics beforehand
shut geyser
In most meeting people look at me like i'm some alien
gilded valley
The thing about writing it down is you add an extra layer of thought - or at least for me it does
shut geyser
Well you are writing the code in the process
gilded valley
I'm not even talking about writing the code
shut geyser
But yeah it's a stress test
Pretty sure i perfom better with my tea and blanket than in front of some PhD asking me to write faster :p
gilded valley
Like, explaining how to find all nodes on a given level of a binary tree. I couldn't write the code off hand, or explain the solution in words off hand. But I could write the description for how to do it very quickly
shut geyser
Then you have to train it because that's typically what they ask
gilded valley
Yeah, when I'm applying I spend a lot of time practicing
shut geyser
(It was even one of my question at onsite)
shut geyser
General idea will stay
gilded valley
I dunno, I spent 6 months solving graph problems and got pretty good at it. Came back a year later and forgot pretty much everything
shut geyser
But let's say for this test, erh it was much easier, just parse something and blurt a csv
I sucked terribly, i did it very inelegantly/inneficiently
I do better at 6 am on advent of code stuff lol
But it was fine, just sent requirement.txt along with it
2 interviews to go!
gilded valley
Yeah, I think I misunderstood you
I was interpreting what you said as bad advice I've heard from others before
heavy plover
Imo there's no reason to not apply to all of them when you're young especially
The reality is at any of the FAANG and tech companies just below them have amazing engineers and lots of great projects
Even if you work a project that never ships
heavy plover
Sure
shut geyser
Google is losing what they made special from what i can read in news, in the recent year too :x
gilded valley
Are FB really that much less ethical than others?
shut geyser
Funfact: i applied to Uber for Junior and they sent me a 10 times harder hackerank stuff than any of my google onsites
heavy plover
I know the data stuff is sketch but they're still trying to be a platform that unites the globe
shut geyser
I was fine with them rejecting because i'm not really comfy with Uner
gilded valley
Of all the things on the internet that facilitate intercommunication, FB is the worst. You only interact with the people you choose
shut geyser
Their Business model + scandals they had in the past
gilded valley
Yeah, Uber seems super sketchy
shut geyser
Fb kinda standardised the web though
gilded valley
Howso?
shut geyser
Technically and culturally
heavy plover
Uber execs have sexually assaulted people so yeah idk about working there
gilded valley
I don't really agree about FB. But thats not for this channel
shut geyser
Yeah
heavy plover
I think the big 3 cloud are way more sketch
If you wanna go down that route
AWS, Azure and GCP are massive and have way more than just facebooks data
shut geyser
Azure is sketchy ?
heavy plover
Fair
There was a guy on blind whining about how MSFT still made him whiteboard even though he was an L4 at Google
Like, why wouldn't they still do that lmao
gilded valley
Yeah. Thats a bit of a dumb thing to whine about. Apparently Microsoft is pretty rubbish to work for though
tonnes of politics
moreso than other corps
shut geyser
People still whine about reversing a binary tree so erh
I think Google is heading this way from articles i read, blogpost of people leaving
That's the impression i get
They lost too much money/contract because of Googlers
gilded valley
Yeah, I've seen a lot of bad stuff about it as well. Although, my guess is that its still better to work for than most non tech corps
mild zenith
Let's try and steer this back to being on topic
shut geyser
Sorry!
mild zenith
No worries, it happens
gilded valley
Surely discussing the tech firms that everyone wants to work for is on topic?
shadow moss
Microsoft culture has apparently turned around with Satya
tired hill
Definitely did
dawn rock
just work at Palantir /s
burnt tiger
I can say that Microsoft has significantly increased their open source involvement though in recent years, so they have that going for them. We have multiple Python core developers that are paid by Microsoft for part of their working hours to contribute upstream. In particular, Brett Cannon (SC member and Python core dev) gets paid ~20 hours a week to contribute to any official Python projects. His full-time position is as the dev lead for the Python VSCode extension. There's a couple of others as well that get paid for part of their hours by Microsoft, such as Eric Snow and Steve Dower. I honestly couldn't imagine the Microsoft from around 6-10+ years ago doing something like that.
radiant moon
burnt tiger
I'm not giving them a recommendation by any means though since I haven't personally worked for them, and my interactions with the above three developers have always been strictly Python-related. But I am generally pleased that they have taken in active role in open source development as a company, particularly with CPython development.
marsh wind
@dawn rock what's with Palantir?
shut geyser
Palantir not even bothering to not pretend they're not evil
near oracle
Where to find freelancing project on web scraping
icy berry
if you read the channel topic @near oracle you can see that we do not offer recruitment, only discussion about python and the world of work
shadow moss
Cold, Evil makes money
shut geyser
I know!
But i wouldnt feel comfortable knowing my work could be used in ways that can harm others
torpid bolt
a bit in software engineering school, but forgot a lot of it 😬
wind oak
I wanna start university in CS major and I am picking my courses atm
I have to pick 1 of the general elective courses available
But I wanna know if I would use any of them in my studies
Will I need any physics in my major?
torpid bolt
i would say physics for engineers looks the most likely, it's nice to have some ideas about how transistors work, but i don't know if the course is about that.
but the title doesn't give much about the content
all of these seem pretty interesting and possibly useful in life in general, just not sure how useful in CS studies
wind oak
I asked my counselor
She said that I won't be using them in my studies, they are just general culture along side with my major
marsh wind
Then do physics imo
wind oak
Which one
gilded valley
I think its pretty much entirely dependant on which of those you find most interesting. For me its environment and health, the stuff I remember from high school biology is still relevant to random conversations to day, and I assume that'd be the same
wind oak
I was thinking of picking chemistry only because I find it easy
But physics is far more interesting
But I am afraid it turns out to be hard
shadow moss
Do whatever gets you out with degree
Degree is end goal, the path taken rarely matters
gilded valley
Do whatever gets you out with degree I mean, that is the path that matters right? If you only do stuff you find boring, you're (or at least I would) probably gonna half ass it
vs doing stuff you're interested in and genuinely want to understand where you're gonna work harder to get that understanding
torpid bolt
chemistry, easy, ah.
shadow moss
Charlie, huh, Step 1) Graduate Step 2) With Decent GPA
if you hate all courses equally, pick the one you think will be easiest to pass
and there is going to be a ton of boring stuff in college
one reason corporations love college grads is they have already shown the ability to do paperwork drudgery most jobs have
wait till you get to early English literature classes 😉
gilded valley
I'm in uni in the UK at the moment. The way it works here is you have very little choice over what units you study, and everything is focused on your course/major
so I'll never have to do Eng Lit stuff
but, I'd much prefer that flexibility
I actually somewhat enjoy formal education, especially on broader subjects
shadow moss
sure, but it seems Fire dos not
gilded valley
why?
shadow moss
but my generally advice applies, Graduate at all costs
Why would you
you want to be a Computer person, Astronomy probably doesn't interest you
gilded valley
I dunno, maybe I'm optimistic, but I feel like the default position of most people is being interested in a range of things
opal perch
I like learning things but I would hate to do english lit if I wanted to do computer science
torpid bolt
programmers could all benefit from better ways to understand each others, writting and reading skills never hurt
and literature is also good to get exposed to ideas that could be actually relevant to what you do, not in the technical sense, but in what you are actually building
opal perch
my opinion is if your education is good enough, you won't need to learn shit like reading and writing, you'll learn it naturally
shadow moss
I agree with English Lit or similar "art" course as required
I'm just saying University isn't learning fun 100% of time, there can be drudgery as well
torpid bolt
well i think your opinion is wrong :), reading and writting are cultural things, a common language doesn't spontateously develop among people that don't live and cooperate together
shadow moss
like when professor is like 'i want to write function to calculate a average from a list, no no, you cannot use any math library'
then he throws a str() into middle of the list just to mess with you
opal perch
how can a opinion be wrong
torpid bolt
in multiple ways, it can be self inconsistent, it can be inconsistent with facts, probably others
opal perch
well if it's inconsistent with facts, then it's factually wrong and not an opinion?
shut geyser
hurh
opal perch
I'm all for learning subjects that aren't directly related to what I do
shut geyser
people can have dumb and bad opinions
opal perch
I just think the american education system is flawed in more ways than the english
shut geyser
an opinion is not a participation prize
torpid bolt
I'm not sure how that's relevant, i'm French
opal perch
Well my point was I don't want to be learning random subjects like english lit, I don't need to go to uni to read poems or classic texts
edit: I don't think it's necessary to be learning random subjects
torpid bolt
it's good that you don't need to go to uni to do that, but it's also good (imho) that uni makes you do it either way, and other people, it gives things to discuss about and opens the mind to opinions that are (imho) important to the human experience, and discussing these with others will create a greater appreciation of each other's struggle, which is (imho), a good thing to society in general.
shut geyser
allows you to talk with the business side
torpid bolt
and tell them "no, what you are asking me to build is unethical", hopefuly
shut geyser
i listen to this podcast, talk python to me a lot
a lot of interviewee are people having done another degree and touched at python at some point
then got hooked in
during their cursus/work
i believe it might happens in the other way
though jobs prospects are not the same
opal perch
I'm really not sure english lit will be useful in that situation, you guys realise english lit is english literature, how in the world will english lit help you say "no that's unethical", it's usually common sense if something is unethical or not, you don't have to read something like 1984 to know what's ethical and what's not.
shut geyser
that kinda helps to formulate idea
if you don't want to keep your innate ethical compass to yourself
torpid bolt
yeah, i know it's a far fetch from english literature and ethics, that wasn't the greatest example
but being interested in the humanities in general is imho important even when you do a very technical job like this
shut geyser
1984 is probably the worst example you could give tbh given it's author and its influence
torpid bolt
and actually, a lot of what developers do is more understanding a requirement and translating into code, and that first part is all about language
gilded valley
1984 is the most overhyped book in all of history. But literature is literally all about making salient arguments on difficult points - thats useful everywhere
shut geyser
waaaah
Brave new world is overhyped
1984 is fine
most people mix up the message and the content of the book though
it's annoying as fuck
gilded valley
1984 is a good book, and an enjoyable read. But its a pretty flat allegory
and people everywhere bring out the hurdur cctv is 1984 argument
shut geyser
it's a accesible reference
gilded valley
Its definitely not some all encompassing statement on communism/authoritarianism
shut geyser
i mean, google and fb are often called Big Brother so everyone get the idea of what they can do or not no?
and the danger of controlling informations
gilded valley
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28971276 Will Self makes the argument better than I can
I dunno if thats the right article, or a different one makes the point I'm making.
shut geyser
i kinda like Orwell writings tbh, it's not his only books
and his character is pretty fun
gilded valley
I absolutely love his non fiction stuff
and even his other novels
just not 1984/animal farm
shut geyser
guy litteraly wrote book because he was in bed shooting fascist
gilded valley
Yeah, Homage to Catalonia, and Down and Out are two of my favourite books
shut geyser
i do agree that people misuse 1984, but it's because it's just well known
nothing to do with career
btw
gonna get hit on finger again
gilded valley
Yeah, I wasn't even really following the previous discussion. Just making the point that studying literature is useful
shut geyser
also because i can't stop, i dislike people not taking into account Huxley was hugely into drugs
torpid bolt
it's a bit overhyped for sure, but not a bad book overall, you just can't use it as a one-size-fits-all lense to see the world
gilded valley
I think it mostly gets used that way
shut geyser
the concept of novlang is often misused on internets
gilded valley
which is why I resent it
torpid bolt
yep, offtopic, sorry, didn't mean to restart the thing
opal perch
learning all kinds of stuff is useful. But, lets be real here, if someone wasn't interested in learning the random stuff, it won't go into their heads anyway. If the people are interested, they'll learn it. So english lit is useful sure, but if the person won't have the intentions of learning it, no point forcing a student into a clearly waste of a semester
shut geyser
it can also come from cultural difference, in France we study a lot of bs before having something useful
on all my uni years maybe 0.5% came useful ._.
torpid bolt
i disagree with the class being unable to interest someone in something they didn't have an interest to before, it does happen, not always, but class do make people discover things they had no idea they liked
shut geyser
i wish i had CS class instead of geology classes Q.Q
lunar flume
I have a question for you guys and gals. It's mostly to make sure I'm on the right track. I'm working through the Python Bootcamp on Udemy (the one by Colt Steele) and am doing the exercises at w3resource for practice.
I understand that it's not memorization that I need, it's the practice. I'm wondering what the next steps are. Practice and study are great but it's not real world application.
vapid jay
@lunar flume come up with a project idea, then implement it
post it on your GitHub for extra creds
shut geyser
congrats @potent solar
vapid jay
how much value has a university degree for a programming job?
im really curious if im making the right choice putting in 4 years
though to be fair im also interested in fpga design as well
warped saffron
@vapid jay it helped me get my first job because I wouldn't have got the interview without it. In my current job there's lots of colleagues without degrees though. After your first job I don't think it matters as much if you can show you have the required experience and skills. University did give me the motivation to study I wouldn't have had without strict deadlines. I'm lucky enough to be in a country where university is free though, and I don't think I would've paid for it if I had to.
shadow moss
hard to say
because it's impossible ot know what you don't get by not going to university
vapid jay
yeah thats a problem as well
i mean i guess im lucky that i have free university as well but the teaching is really meh programming wise
plus math is kind of kicking my ass lol
though i remember talking with a guy telling me that what they teach me doesnt matter and its up to me to learn programming
potent solar
thanks @shut geyser :)
torpid bolt
If it's just to get a job, you could certainly spend less than 4 years and less money (if you are in the US) learning practical skills to get a job
shut geyser
what will you research?
cosmic crow
for those who work as SWE which i assume is prob a lot:
what kind of work do you do? ofc you cant leak it but if you could generalize it into a category of work what would that be?
mint citrus
everything
at least for me. I plan to change that tho and tell my boss what she has been doing wrong
river totem
i do full stack web development at a small company
nothing crazy though as im only a high school graduate, starting uni this year
cosmic crow
im in high school rn, thats pretty cool that ur doing that already :)
river totem
im building like a semi-automated report system for a tutoring centre that i used to study at, where parents of students can view their children's current and historic performance over time, relative to the rest of their class with graphs through a web frontend, and more formal reports can be generated and sent out through email to the parents
because the company's relatively small and they really haven't focussed much on tech throughout their active years i also handle pretty much everything else like system administration and deployment, im the only employee for tech, most others are just academic tutors
cosmic crow
wow, seems like a lot to do
river totem
eh, its not too bad
there aren't any large projects rn and deployment isnt too complicated
im probably missing out on a lot of what a proper industry experience should give you since im the only one really working on things and i don't have anyone to guide me or give me feedback
at least on the code itself
i relay things with my employer and get some feedback on design and whatnot
cosmic crow
i feel like even having that type of experience is still pretty good
esp for ur age at least
river totem
maybe, its pretty similar to some of what i do in my own time though
just with this, i have to be more responsible
cosmic crow
meanwhile im making hangman and working on project euler lol
river totem
lol
having experience prior to uni/college isn't required though so you're still putting yourself ahead of others by doing that, however little it may be
my work is still pretty insignificant compared to lot of what happens in here though xd
onyx pendant
Hey guys, i have a general question, i just got my BS in electrcial computer engineering and i started looking for jobs right away. I just got hired as a sales represative for a solar panel company. Do you think this is a good job for me or should i look for a job thats more related to my major?
mint citrus
Get one more related to your major
But that doesn't mean quit the job you just got
Work and find a new job at the same time
That's my opinion
radiant moon
how on Earth could we answer that?
if you like the job, then it's a good job for you; if not, not.
NEXT
hint: sometimes you like a job at first, and then come to dislike it. The solution there is "get another job". Sometimes you don't like the job at first, then come to like it. The solution there is "keep the job"
onyx pendant
Im just wondering if people who have my degree work as sales representatives or not
onyx pendant
Yes thats true.
radiant moon
I imagine some do
onyx pendant
Im very grateful for this job i just got. I hope i can work my up in the company from sales rep to solar panel intsaller. I think that would fit my major more
mint citrus
radiant moon
are you asking "is this as good as I'll ever get"?
onyx pendant
No, im just looking for work expirence. Im fresh out of college and im new to the whole "adult life"
radiant moon
I'd stay at your current job for a while and see how you like it, honestly
jobs are kinda hard to get
it can vary enormously, though. Perhaps you're working for a great company: fun co-workers, path to advancement, decent salary, etc; why not stay? Or maybe they're scam artists out of "Glen Garry Glen Ross"; get a better job ASAP
onyx pendant
Right, but this is more of a "marketing" job, where as in school i got my degree in engineering
Who knows, maybe in the future my degree will help me step up within the company
radiant moon
indeed
keep looking even while you're employed
[that advice is easy for me to give but I have never done that myself. Full confession 😦 ]
I still think it's good advice though 🙂
I have the vague sense that marketing or sales people who work for engineering companies, and actually know what they're talking about (i.e., have engineering degrees), can make a ton of $
onyx pendant
Yup, im just gonna have to do alot of training and studying for this job and everything should be alright
Thank you all for the advice ,I really apperticate it
vapid jay
I've decided to pick up Scala as my additional language.. would like someone's input if they're familiar with it
grave gate
@vapid jay I sorta know Chisel so I sorta know Scala
vapid jay
what's a chisel
grave gate
Chisel is a hardware design language implemented with Scala, dunno how to explain
grave gate
Programming field programmable gate arrays, UC Berkeley uses it. I prefer SystemVerilog for now. Also it’s getting late.
vapid jay
wow.. Verilog.. been a while since I heard that name
ok then.. no worries.. learned something new
torpid bolt
@onyx pendant another thing to consider, don't get too sentimental on your first job, it's good to have perspective, it might be a good or bad job, but you don't really know, if you feel some things could be better (work satisfaction, compensations, working conditions, ethics, whatever), it's ok to get info, see what other companies have to offer, and make decisions on that (even saying to your current company about an offer you might want to accept, if they like you, they might match the offer.
It's important to understand it's work, it's business, most companies will lay you off if that means profit, some will argue its their duty to do so. Of course, you might be working with exceptionally good people, i can't know that, but don't get stuck on a mediocre job because it's your first, if you quickly found a first job, chances are you can easily find another one.
vapid jay
@onyx pendant Just to add to what @torpid bolt wrote. I have several examples (from the consulting world, not programming :)) of high-performing people getting laid off the second a project goes wrong, and the upper manager decides he/she doesn't want to take the blame.
So definitely consider what is best for you - because most companies consider only what is best for them.
torpid bolt
and there are also a lot of people getting stuck in a low growth job, where they are basically trying to make up for everything being terrible, and not feeling they are building experience to look for something better, and just sinking time in hoping their effort will pay off there. Well, a lot i don't know, but i suspect, i know it happens.
vapid jay
Exactly, it is such a waste of time and effort, particularly in SWE...
shut geyser
there are also a lot of people getting stuck in a low growth job, where they are basically trying to make up for everything being terrible, and not feeling they are building experience to look for something better
why are you words so harsh
torpid bolt
sorry, didn't mean to hurt, but if you feel like this, maybe open up to opportunities, you might be surprised at what people think you are worth
shut geyser
DONT SAY SORRY YOU MAKE IT WORSE
torpid bolt
😄
shut geyser
interview wednesday >: I
torpid bolt
yay!
don't do just one, it's normal to cast wide and then pick the best thing that comes up
try things that seem far fetched, or impossible, but that you'd love to do, if you don't get it, you didn't lose anything.
shut geyser
yeah, i shall candidate more to not lose 3 weeks on this one
@people living in the NL, what is the best job boards site in Amsterdam area? Linkedin is really bad for me
torpid bolt
i've been surprised by my own hability to negociate last time i changed job, instead of getting one interview, i took 4, 3 went back positive, and i could kind of auction myself, taking into account my preferences (it's ok to take a bit less if the job is nicer on other accounts).
oh, i'm actually moving to Amsterdam for next job, starting in march 🙂
shut geyser
i have to make career switch to a more IT focused job, coming from bio PHD the year after
switching fields two times, scare of recruiter a bit
i have to move there before May 😄
solid berry
is there any college opportunities if u wanna study in EU, coming from outside country?
but allmost broke xd?
i graduated HS but cant afford expensive colleges rn, but i also wanna study anywhere in EU as computer science degree, any tips?
torpid bolt
so, schools are cheap (nearly free) in france, but you still need accomodations and visa, and of course to get accepted in the school, which depends on the grades you had before, i believe it's possible, a lot of people come study from abroad, but it probably depends a lot on your specifics.
gilded valley
My understanding is that studying in the EU as a non EU person is very expensive
thats the case for the UK at least
shut geyser
it also depends on what country you come from and what treaty they have
in belgium they did too, for South America people at least
marsh wind
there is a caveat, like you can try to argue that you and your family mainly you have low income and they can make an excpetion for you
shut geyser
went from 800€ to 3k to 8k i think
torpid bolt
https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2231
https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2863
https://www.campusfrance.org/fr/bourses-etudiants-etrangers
appparently there are some financial help for foreign students in france and europe, that last site has some details
but yeah, it certainly does depend on the country, it's certainly not a equal opportunity
marsh wind
lol sadly it can be a big problem for strangers, know it all to well from my experience
marsh wind
also, I think there are much fewer opportunities to study in English in your bachelor (licence?) in France than in Master
marsh wind
there are quite lot master programs taught in English, but for bachelor they are few and far between (or what is the correct expression)
shut geyser
i was in munich some months ago and discussed with a Local
he wanted to speak french to us
and he knew all the weird french IT words
progiciel and courriel all that shit
marsh wind
and I think it is kinda same in most EU countries - bachelor is mainly in the national language
shut geyser
he studied in France and had to give his thesis with all the french version :p
shut geyser
they force you to translate everything
solid berry
ye am reading
solid berry
i am from yemen, poorly shitty state
marsh wind
luckily I only had to do my PhD thesis resume in French
4000 characters
so no big deal
shut geyser
ah nice
solid berry
ah fk me gonna translate everything now
so france is expensive?
which is least expensive eu country then
solid berry
holy damn
marsh wind
but pretty much everywhere to do bachelor you will need language
solid berry
like local language?
marsh wind
yeah
few offer English-taught Bachelor
that does not eman you cannot manage tho
cause for foreigners thy might also offer some intensive language course
solid berry
am currently learning german these days, so
marsh wind
I know some people who came here and had like 2 months of lagnuageu courses smth like 4-6 hours a day
to get you up to some speed
solid berry
but still i did not expect to be lack of resources of english taught degrees
marsh wind
but problem is we don't know all nuances and specifics for each country, city and etc
solid berry
true
marsh wind
there are plenty for MSc
solid berry
MSc?
marsh wind
Master
marsh wind
like I said there are also some Bachelor in English, but you also risk to have competion to get there
solid berry
true
marsh wind
if yu learn german it might be worth to try there
at least study the opportunities
alternatively if possible do Bachleor in your country and try to get scholarship for Master
solid berry
how bout northern european countries, or eastern european countries
the country i live in rn is expensive aswell so
marsh wind
North is expensive generaly
shadow moss
Kambo what country are you currently in?
solid berry
uae
aka dubai, studying here is expensive as hell
well no not anywhere near expensive its mediocre but i cant afford it, at.. around 18~k$ year
i wanna get to western/mediocre to average uni with lowest payment possible, ill learn language if have to
solid berry
do whisper or ping me if anyone got any tips
vapid jay
hey
anyone have any experience with leaving a team you love working with but moving onto a better opportunity? 
the thing im struggling witht he most in job consideration is how much i like my team
hushed kestrel
'better' has a lot of dimensions
Quality of life is one of them
It also depends in which stage of life you're in
still mantle
good answer.
vapid jay
I'm 21. Is it too late for me to do awesome stuff with my life as far as robotics goes?
radiant moon
absolutely
hushed kestrel
Giving people advice not specific to their context is not good.
hushed kestrel
Timothy, all the famous roboticists were super successful at 18-19-20
vapid jay
So yes
hushed kestrel
You are what we call, over the hill.
radiant moon
@vapid jay I hope you realize I'm being sarcastic
85% sure @hushed kestrel is too, but you never know
hushed kestrel
LOL
radiant moon
place your bets
hushed kestrel
I am about 85% sarcastic
radiant moon
12% nonfat dry milk
hushed kestrel
Robotics is a weird fucking field TBH (I am a hardware engineer + programmer )
vapid jay
I have so many awesome ideas for robotics, new technology, etc but I'm afraid I can't pull it off
radiant moon
couple of not-terribly-young robotics stars:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevor_Blackwell
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_Brooks
probably tons of others
hushed kestrel
Robotics is one of those fields that you can just eat your time away so hard
vapid jay
I already have a business name that clings onto my surname. Sharp Industries
hushed kestrel
Robotics is a mixture of Mechanica, electrical, firmware, programming, control theory, math, physics, just like everything
Impossible for one person to learn everything about it.
radiant moon
@vapid jay get the best job you can find in a vaguely-related field
vapid jay
I'm disabled
hushed kestrel
Not all disabilities are qualifying or something
drowsy hearth
How long did it take you guys to fully learn python to the point where you were comfortable enough to apply for jobs as python developer.
earnest knot
@drowsy hearth About 2 years for me, although I probably could have applied before this if I had spent more time on it
torpid bolt
hard to say, i did learn python on my own while i was in my CS degree, and my first job the year after was using python, i was kind of out of my depth on this one though, it was using a complex framework called zope (now pretty much dead, but you can find some of it's remains in a lot of places), to work on an ERP.
radiant moon
@drowsy hearth hard to answer; not long. But I already knew similar languages (like perl). Where I work, we don't care if you don't know the one language that we're looking for, as long as it looks like you can learn it
shadow moss
It depends on the company, some are looking for good fundamentals, others want you to know certain language
at my workplace, if we are hiring you for Java or C# development, we expect you to know those languages
that's just because the number of developers for both those languages, we can just find someone who does without a ton of effort
hushed jungle
Hi.
I'd like to get into data science. I'm considering going to school for a CS degree but I'm also looking at a Computer information systems degree with a focus on data analytics
I hear cs holds way more weight with employers. Is this true?
shadow moss
Generally your degree holds more weight when you get out
after that, it's a checkbox for employers
like "Does lmsofly_718 has a degree?" ✅
So my advice is take whatever will let you graduate
hushed kestrel
@hushed jungle A degree tends to matter for your first-second job, but if you have had a job title for 2 years, they care way more about your previous work than your degree
hushed jungle
That makes sense. It's just that the cis degree seems to be focused on stuff I would actually use while the CS degree seems much more generalized. But CS commands more respect though.
I do want to get a ms in stats regardless of which I choose though so maybe it's moot?
hushed kestrel
If you have code history + project stuff you can kinda get around it.
It really depends on what you want to do and what you want to get out of your degree
Degree != job
My physics degree doesn't translate into any particular job (you need masters + phd or some shit)
I don't know if I would give it up for comp-sci if I had to go back and do it again
Since it literally changed how I view the world
gaunt spoke
Somewhat off of python but, how hard is it to make a game for an App Store? A game that has some attraction (not like top 100 type)
hushed jungle
Thanks. I'll keep all that in mind.
radiant moon
@gaunt spoke I'm a pretty good professional programmer, and I decided to learn Android programming by taking a year-long course. I hated it so much that I quit.
Just one data point.
I'm also pretty lazy
gaunt spoke
Have you tried apple apps? Objective C or swift
radiant moon
nope
personally I'm not interested in traditional GUI apps that run on a laptop; only phones or web
radiant moon
no I haven't but might some day
torpid bolt
i think most of what makes a game top 100 on the app store is not technology related
you could program candy crush or flappy bird in about anything
even angry bird doesn't require much, you do need a 2D physics engine, its' a bit more work, but it's not high tech
the effort to get top 100 imho, are two fold, design/psychology/storytelling whatever makes the game a good game, and marketing/advertisement, i'm pretty sure most popular game got there through sheer investment in these two
the game needs to be good for people to stick to it, but first they need to know about it
radiant moon
also luck
torpid bolt
yes, get one random (or not) review by some gaming youtuber and you can jump pretty quickly
indigo sleet
Could also just be topical
Plague Inc. is #1 in China right now, for example
(sounds like a bad joke, but it's not)
indigo sleet
Yeah, the game tries to be realistic and has had a bunch of commendations from health orgs because of it
torpid bolt
never played it, heard it was good yeah
drowsy hearth
I don't have a degree and not planing on to getting one. Will I be able to find a job?
radiant moon
I did
drowsy hearth
The only thing I have is a certification for finishing coding school
radiant moon
and I congratulate you on avoiding the higher-education scam
(I confess: I did get a two-year CS thingy at a community college; it was worthwhile)
"Associate's Degree" iirc
drowsy hearth
How long did it take you to find a job coming out of college?
torpid bolt
how recognized is this "coding school"?
drowsy hearth
udacity
torpid bolt
hm ok, not great, i guess it would depend on how you interview, if you can code your way out of paper bag, there are some jobs that don't ask for much more
the good thing is that a lot of devs are needed, a lot more than there are very good ones, so you don't need to be very good to get a job, you need to be able to do things without causing more trouble than you solve, and to learn to get better.
hushed kestrel
I don't know. it's pretty hard for me to get interviews
Even with experience / whatever
torpid bolt
general knowledge can make big different, if you just know python basics, but can use git, understand what http is, can do basic sql queries, etc, you can probably find someting
it does depend a lot on your area though, remote work is a thing, but not really for junior devs
and not that much for experienced ones either, tbh
drowsy hearth
yeah I keep hearing how companies are in need to fulfill dev positions but actual devs having hard time finding jobs
torpid bolt
i know i get much more sollicitations by recruiters than i need, and of course i'm not looking, but i have quite some experience, so ymmv
there is a thing about recruitement though, HR often don't know what to look for, recruiters can apparently only find people who already have a job
linkedin is the main source of work opportunities for me
make sure you link with people you know that got work in the industry, it can help a lot
look for recruiters/head hunters and add them, send them your resume, specify what you are looking for
they make money finding you work, quite a lot of it, so they should be able to find you a match
shadow moss
yeah I keep hearing how companies are in need to fulfill dev positions but actual devs having hard time finding jobs
Partly true and partly false
True as in yes, devs are still in big demand but most of the demand is for higher skill jobs like Machine Learning and like
False as in, there are many companies who like to say "We still need developers" for political reasons
Whether to appear they are have a bunch of job openings and would love to create jobs but just can't find the talent
and partly to explain why offshoring happens/outsourcing happens
Also, there are plenty of companies who require bachelor degree for certain positions for various reasons, esp if position involves any sort of .us.gov work
hushed kestrel
us.gov jobs are completely different from private I think
I mean to say the kinds of hoops you need to jump through to get them are different
torpid bolt
Most of the offers i recieve are not for ML/AI, though some do hype it to get attention, back/front work is still very much in demand imho
wintry imp
Hi! I'm new to python. Can you guys please suggest some intermediate python projects to improve my python skills ? Thanks heaps!!
radiant moon
@wintry imp compute all the anagrams of a string.
@wintry imp emulate the "enigma" machine.
radiant moon
wintry imp
??
shadow moss
tshirtman, you are not American are you
Sinthrill, I meant any type of work for .us.gov, directly as gov employee or contractor
hushed kestrel
???
marsh wind
Rabbit, he's French
shadow moss
Sinthrill: us.gov jobs are completely different from private I think
just pointing out any work regardless if hired by government or contracted to government generally require a bachelor
and US government actually does little programming directly, it's almost entirely outsourced
hushed kestrel
**I mean to say the kinds of hoops you need to jump through to get them are different
torpid bolt
@shadow moss no, i'm french, i guess that could indeed differ from places to places, but i suspect most dev work these days is not AI/ML
shadow moss
Sure
it's not but in US, you keep hearing about this massive demand, yet I hear devs getting laid off, contractors getting hired and fired rapidly
remember US doesn't have France Labor protections so it's really hard to see full picture accurately
we have 2 dev positions that they seem to have zero intention of filling
which I'm sure isn't allowed in many countries
torpid bolt
i did hear about layoffs recently, and some people the money have been a bit tight, or is expected to get tight, in relation to the big destruction of value that was wework, people with deep pockets might get a bit cold feet
glass rose
I don't want to work in office
vapid jay
Ok if i were to make a company right now, or try to, based around technology, what would i have to do to gather a team of artists and programmers?
gilded valley
Pay them lots of money
torpid bolt
that, and also pitch them an interesting project, and good working conditions, including properly managed teams, so they feel the process allows them to give feedback and have some freedom in their work, as well as also giving them enough general direction and potential for cooperation with other team that they get a sense of being part of something bigger than themselves.
coral otter
So I've heard the resume sorters for medium-big companies will auto toss resumes for font choice. Does anyone know if this is true and what fonts are safest for getting past them?
obsidian acorn
lol, I have never heard of that
I can assure you that it is not true
although for a lot of those companies, they have different methodology to look through resume/profiles that make cause a typical resume to fail though, since they are mostly being read by algorithm before going to a person
lucid niche
Anybody here who has BS in mechanical engineering or engineering mechanics who went on to get a MS or PhD in computational sciences and engineering? I recently got a research assistant position and I'm really excited, just trying to hear some more talk about the field, as my PI is very busy and I don't have much time to talk to him.
- Also interested to hear more about undergraduate research projects
vapid jay
i really have many ppl telling me. don't do computer-science it's hard and the salary is just normal. don't do that
pfff trying to put me down
shadow moss
Those resume sorters are brutal but I don’t see a font filter
In any case, Times New Roman should be good choice
torpid bolt
@vapid jay i feel the opposite, it's like making lawyer's money but easier to study and practice, imho.
coral otter
@obsidian acorn you sound like you might know a bit about that. Any pointers/good places to read about pointers?
coral otter
pointers about getting past resume-filters. Having to work with C is enough pointer headaches for one lifetime.
coral otter
That sounds like a lot of design thinking. I just want it enforced in the language so the compiler does that for me.
mint citrus
you still have to think about them
coral otter
I don't think I've ever touched a memory management tool with Rust, it just refuses to compile if it can't prove safety.
mint citrus
what does touching a mem tool have anything to do with that?
also this prob not appropriate for #career-advice
shut geyser
You probably need some buzzwords on your CV, make it pretty by using some word or latex template, adapt it to the uses of the country you apply in, no typos, put a link to github/blog, try to put only relevant information on it. Limit it to one page if you're starting.v
Also don't take any chance with weird font, use a normal font
I mean if they receive 100 CV/week, i'd seriously just trash it. If it's ugly af, screaming colors or weird fonts, why bother
torpid bolt
I use bold on the technology names in the descriptions of what i did, simple but effective, a human can quickly scan through and look for details around.
shut geyser
Ah yeah
shadow moss
as someone who helps sort resume, If it's ugly af, screaming colors or weird fonts, why bother this so much
if you have typos, weird formatting or crazy font, unless you are exceptionally strong candidate, I'm moving on
bold and italics are fine but use them in consistent manner
and something else I've dealt with, please double check your email/phone, make sure they are both active
shut geyser
Btw i have to explain to my next interviewer why i would jump from Pharma to some startupy websuscription service
Any good arguments?
I mainly want to move because, no growth at my job nor challenges + i think i'd learn more and be more happy in the position they offer
But not sure that's enough to reassure them
torpid bolt
https://www.utsavahuja.com/9-software-engineering-offers/ this might be of interest here
@shut geyser i'd say focus on the things that interest you in the business, the challenges you'd like to tackle, but saying that you are more confident in growth prospect in this seems good too.
marsh wind
and something else I've dealt with, please double check your email/phone, make sure they are both active
oh man, I once omitted g in gmail
good thing the phone was fine
and that the guy first called me to setup interview so I could send him the correct address in SMS
shut geyser
Nice
marsh wind
yeah I felt so stupid with that mistake
and I had few people look my CV, no one ever noticed 🤦♂️
I guss everyone thinks you won't make a mistake in your personal detalis
so they focus on actual content
gilded valley
When you work one one document for a long period of time, its super easy to miss mistakes that would be glaringly obvious if you were just glancing through it if someone else made it. I find reading things out loud helps a lot, even though it feels dumb
torpid bolt
Reading a document you produced, as if it was from someone else, is hard, but really useful. Helps with code as well.
shadow moss
T-shirt man: from that link
To be clear--I don't consider myself an exceptional software engineer. Not by a long shot!
I doubt that’s true he is probably in top 10%
I wish he posted his background
Like educational attainment
gilded valley
He also had the ability to quit his job before finding another one. I'm not convinced that the advice he presents is quite universal - or that those were the main things that actually landed him job offers
torpid bolt
i think most programmers in the SV have the same options as him
and in a lot of other places
it helps to have already some experience
but demand is still high
and if you take time to prepare, you'll get a good shot at a lot of companies
they do look for junior profiles as well as seniors, they do want capable juniors of course, but they don't require the same degree of knowledge from them, of course
i don't consider myself an exceptional software engineer either, and i have too much offers to handle
(unsollicitated)
not all of them a good fit for me, i would certainly fail some of these interviews
shadow moss
Remember imposter syndrome is real
gilded valley
I think the fact that you don't consider yourself exceptional kind reinforce's Rabbit's point that he might actually be exceptional. I'm very confident that you are an exceptional software engineer, and if you don't think you are, that implies this guy might be in a similar boat to you
shadow moss
I feel it commonly until I talk to others in my company then I’m like, clearer that feeling right up
torpid bolt
i have some klout from working on interesting projects and having some social presence, but i know a lot of good programmers, they can teach me things as well as i can teach them
gilded valley
Speaking to real devs, so many of them aren't actually that interested in software development, its just their job. But you're involved with it outside of that
You might not be exceptional for the places you've worked, but compared to the general population. I'm 95% sure you are exceptional
torpid bolt
i really am not, i know a few things well, and after 2 decades playing with computers, i hope i don't suck too much, but damn, the amount of things i know i know nothing about is immense, let alone the certainly bigger amount of things i don't know even should concern me
i didn't meet a lot of programmers that didn't care about programming outside their jobs
some, and some where smart, just interested by other things beside, and they could be good programmers anyway
but i've met mostly people who cared
shadow moss
You may be like Zinedine Zidane teammate
torpid bolt
haha, i do try to be a good teammate
shadow moss
Oh no, I wasn’t the best check out Zinedine Zidane
torpid bolt
oh you meant like this
shadow moss
Hey, if you are good enough to be on his team, you are world class athlete in your own right
You are not the best but you were pretty damn good
torpid bolt
yeah, but the thing is, the people i know who are really good, know people who are really really good, it's like we all see others as better than us
gilded valley
I think the point I'm trying to make is that a lot of actually exceptional people don't know that they're exceptional
torpid bolt
(i'm sure these people know people who are good, but, for real)
i can certainly agree on that, but feeling average doesn't make you exceptional either 😛
gilded valley
Also, just being able to be based in San Francisco makes this guy exceptional in some ways. Its not a cheap or easy place to live
torpid bolt
anyway, it can be a good reality check to engage in a process of looking around for a job assuming you can get one, not that someone might offer you a job in pity, but that you deserve one.
gilded valley
The reason I dislike that article is mostly because of the guys attitude. I don't think theres practically any corporation in the world which I don't dislike to some extent, and I'm never going to buy in to (what I see as nonsense) stuff like a company's "mission". And that is a key part of what got him the job.#
passionate about the problem the company is solving
personal connection to the company's mission```
Those are three things he said was important, and I don't think there are any corporations in the world for which those are true. I just find it depressing that it paints a picture as though there is no world in which I'm particularly employable - and I also don't think that is the worldah hm, understanding the mission of the company certainly helps
gilded valley
I will, and have in the past, researched companies for interviews, but always from a practical perspective of what they actually do. Not what they claim to do
torpid bolt
i don't see all companies as evil, the last company i worked for (which i'm leaving), helps businesses have up to date info on google my business, facebook, etc, it's just better visibility, they don't harvest user data, and although you can see it as advertisement, i think it's one of the least problematic kind these days. So i had no problems working there
next company i'm going to is doing fast trading, that's something i would have objected to a few years ago, now i'm less sure.
gilded valley
I agree that not all companies are evil. But I think all corporations are. And then what I see is that corporations are the best places for a reasonable work/life balance
torpid bolt
but being picky about the moral aspects of the company you are going to work for is laudable, it will certainly diminish your prospects, "feel good" work is going to be paid less for the simple reason that more people want to do it.
(hey the market works, wooohoo :D)
yes, corps can be awesome for a dev, for work conditions.
as Jessie Frazelle put it when going to work for MS (from docker before), "selling out has been awesome".
anyway, beach time, ++
fast warren
I have business as a python entrepreneur! I got a couple teachers at my school to let me make educational visual novels for them! :D
torpid marsh
hey guys, i'm about to enter uni and i just wanted to ask how you guys started learning python
i've started doing some courses in datacamp, but just the free ones
i would also like to know if you guys think that the documentation is a good place to start or no
radiant moon
I think I learned it at work; not sure
@torpid marsh I enjoyed https://github.com/gregmalcolm/python_koans/wiki
I think I learned ruby that way
torpid marsh
thanks, I'll check it out
torpid bolt
The python doc is good, but large, not sure i ever went through the official tutorial
faint plover
I learned starting with SoloLearn. If you are new to programming, I think that is excellent @torpid marsh
torpid bolt
!resources has things that are often recommended
inner wrenBOT
faint plover
but mess around with it as you go.
torpid marsh
Thanks guys
Yeah, i think that apart from learning things i should start doing little things or challenges
If i don't really code by myself, then learning will do nothing for me
radiant moon
same here
charred summit
Hello everyone
I have coded in Python for about 6 months now, I have read official documentation and 'Automated boring stuff with Python'.
I have created web based & network based projects & I have also worked with Flask.
But the problem
The problem is: I understand what my lines of code means and I think it works like this for everyone (so I am not so special) but I can't memorize the code and I know that memorizing code is like a 'stupid opinion' but as I am beginning to look for jobs, I must be able to write code without going to StackOverFlow or Coming down here and asking people.
I have also used PyCharm for too long that I can't code 50 lines without it.
So what should I do to become professional in this thing and get a job?
How did you get your first job as python programmer? did you use any IDE? did you memorize code? could you code without googling things every minute?
Not to forget; I am more interested in any type of web/network based automation with python
I will be happy if I get some solid answer on this from people who already have a job :)))
trim juniper
I would learn how algorithms work and avoid memorizing code
At big companies they tend to ask more fundamentals and maybe design questions, but probably won’t ask for you to recreate “boilerplate” code
torpid bolt
professional programers (source: i am one, and i have worked with others, there are no exception) look up things on google and stackoverflow all the time, it's fine, you don't need to memorize code, with time of course you won't need to look up the same things over and over, but you'll look up things all the time, it's fine, we can't know everything and we certainly can't remember every thing.
radiant moon
gasp
torpid bolt
i sucked at my first job, i understood python, but i had to understand a very complex application built in it, and using a quite advanced framework, i was all lost 😅 but what's important is that the place you work make sure you have all the tools to understand the code you are working with, and how to achieve your tasks, you'll be able to ask questions (and really, do ask them, don't wait for hours when you are stuck on something, go ask, it's fine, if you ask too much they'll tell you)
most devs use an IDE, and pycharm is very common for professional python programmers.
radiant moon
at my first job, python quite literally didn't exist
torpid bolt
if that's your tool of choice, that's totally fine, and if you are good at using it, the job should happily pay for it, they don't care how, really, they want you to make the damn thing work :), as long as the code is good, the quality is there, wether you got there by sacrificing goats, or dancing under the moon, or more trivially, using pycharm, they'll be happy.
radiant moon
I can't even tell you what my coworkers use.
They probably can't tell you what I use either.
Nobody cares
torpid bolt
at my last job they asked, so if you used pycharm and needed a licence, they provided it right away.
@charred summit you might have missed the answers to your question 🙂
sterile vault
Continuing here
What entry-level freelance projects are avalaible in python, in your experience?
little prairie
Nothing interesting really just small web page work so far. But I don't have many reviews yet. I'd imagine it gets better as you gain a reputation
minor swift
Same. $250 average for me. I just went on Reddit ngl
little prairie
Reddit ngl?
minor swift
Uhh Reddit has a forhire subreddit
little prairie
I didn't know that
minor swift
“ngl” == not gonna lie
little prairie
How do you even apply?
minor swift
Mhmm. I simply used that. Found some free host like PythonAnywhere, and gave them a test run on there with code
Just DM the person seeking someone to do a task
I always found the ones that were one-time deals, PayPal only.
little prairie
So you make a version of the program before actually getting the job?
minor swift
Nanana We talking about freelancing, but to me, that’s more of a side gig that you do
I program the version, show them the demo, and, if they approve, pass the money, I give the code
Offer to set it up if web server, and then give the code
little prairie
Hmm, I may give it a try, do people pay in bitcoin?
minor swift
Like no reason to retain it, and people understand tgat
I was strict PayPal at the time.
I had fears of BitCoin’s downfall which did come to fruition.
little prairie
I've been getting a lot of my work right here on discord
minor swift
Wow, that’s... unbelievable.
little prairie
Then heard about upwork through this server
minor swift
Ahh I see
little prairie
What's the competition like on reddit? do you get most that you apply for?
minor swift
Actually yes; problem is that the types I seek are... well not good
I’d say competition is low for our field, but half the time, people just don’t respond after awhile
little prairie
Is this the right one https://www.reddit.com/r/forhire/
minor swift
But opportunities came and went
yea that one
Definitely not sustainable but I am not a uhhh for hire type person. I just needed quick money.
oh @sterile vault yea mostly webserver stuff with bits of python integrated like web scraping
little prairie
I don't like to leave stones unturned so I don't mind, small jobs can lead to larger projects.
minor swift
Ahh I do like that attitude but I usually didnt find those in Reddit. Not that I was looking for them so don’t take my word for the aforementioned.
Alr, I gtg. nice meeting you PythonKoder!
little prairie
Take care, nice meeting you too.
rotund vapor
anybody have any advices for what kind of position i should try for? the last company i interned for was a cyber security company but they sorta went down. i mainly did python programming in AWS and wrote scripts using stuff like cloud watch, lambda, S3, SQS, SES, SNS etc.
im thinking of maybe dev ops but im not entirely sure. but for sure i wana do something with AWS & python since thats my strong suit
i got a BS in computer engineering
rotund vapor
true. the time i worked at my previous company was only 6 months tho
im not sure if i should try for a full time position or try to get another internship?
these companies be wild asking for like 3-5+ years work experience haha
vapid jay
ik the basics of python
im confused as to what my purpose for learning python further is?
what should i learn next in python? and why? what can i do with it
craggy wave
im confused as to what my purpose for learning python further is?
what should i learn next in python? and why? what can i do with it
There's no general answer to this, as it depends highly on what you want to do with Python and why you were learning it in the first place. Python is a useful programming language that's quite popular; it has a lot of applications, but there are also plenty of alternative languages available. So, for your question "what can i do with it", the answer is "a lot". It's used a lot in machine learning and web application development, but it's used in plenty of other areas as well.
what should i learn next in python? and why?
I can't really answer the "why?"-question for you. You can learn Python because you like the language (as a hobby), with some professional goal in mind, or any other reason that motivates you. Whatever that reason is, is up to you. As to what you should learn next, that depends on what you're currently familiar with and which goals you have in mind. If you want to go into machine learning/academics, I'd recommend you to checkout the libraries related to that (everything ranging from the scipy stack to machine learning libraries). If you want to go into web app dev, check out things like Django and Flask, and practise with how they interact with other languages like javascript.
vapid jay
I started learning it because people told me it's useful to know a coding language.
So far i like doing python excercises so I just kept on continuing.
I'm going to take your advice and search for a end goal that i can work towards.
thanks.
sterile vault
Have you seen the "automate the boring stuff" book?
It has a good amount of short-term goals and gives you an overview of python's capabilities
vapid jay
i'll take a look ty
charred summit
@trim juniper & @torpid bolt thanks for your answers, I appreciate them.
vapid jay
@torpid bolt which way makes more money in computer science
programming or cybersecurity, or what ?
i mean in over the world (France too)
torpid bolt
being good at interviewing, good at negociation, and willing to switch job on opportunities, makes the most money
vapid jay
no i mean which job. computer-science have many @torpid bolt programming or cybersecurity, or data analyst or what
opal perch
Some security jobs can pay like 400k like its nothing in the US, and some data science jobs pay 400k like its nothing. that's why how tshirtman answered is perfect
opal perch
because the quickest way to have a salary increase is by switching jobs, not by being promoted
switching companies*
opal perch
because you use your old salary as leverage, how old are you mate? if I'm allowed to ask
vapid jay
my picture will say my age
opal perch
like 15-17?
vapid jay
maybe
opal perch
Just enjoy life, do what interests you, and you'll be happy and make money
vapid jay
no
i mean it depends on job
i want to do computer-science, but i don't know which thing (programming, cybersecurity, data-scientist...)
which one makes more
$
opal perch
and what happens when you end up hating what you do because all you cared about is money?
sterile vault
Highly depends. What about going to job sites (like indeed) and looking throught job postings with salaries?
Also, i think glassdoor is good for that kind of stuff
vapid jay
@opal perch i will suicide
marsh wind
you can reach high salaries with any of those. IF you are good at it and if you are willing to do what it takes
vapid jay
i saw in internet it says low
opal perch
not really something to say or joke about mate
vapid jay
i mean max is 7000Euros only
In school they told us to choose 3 specialities. I think i will choose Maths & Computer-science & Economies
Good combinaison ?
opal perch
yes thats fine
marsh wind
quite good indeed.
well economics might be quiestionable, depends on other options imo
vapid jay
but if i choose Speciality Maths i think it will be harder
i mean am not gifted nor noob in Maths
am Medium.
is Software Engineer, the person making softwares ?
marsh wind
yes
gilded valley
Depends on the job, but salaries are mostly monthly
vapid jay
@gilded valley can you tell me which of 3 best paying jobs in computer - science ?
or all computer science's jobs highly paying ?
opal perch
all are well paying
gilded valley
This is the point that Tshirtman was trying to make earlier. The best paying job isn't at all clear, there are high paying jobs in most fields of computer science
what matters more is you. Your ability to negotiate, to be versatile, and to be good at your job
No matter what, you don't really need to think about that til you start university, or possibly a year or so before
sterile vault
Oh, you absolutely can, if you're valuable enough
gilded valley
People can, and people do
vapid jay
let's say example your salary is 5000$ and you want to negociate for 6000$. The Manager will yell at your tiny face
valuable wdym ?
opal perch
not true at all
vapid jay
maybe that's only in some countries. Am here in France
so a Janitor can negociate a salary for 10k $ ?
gilded valley
You don't go to your current manager and say I want a raise. You go and apply to other jobs, and say "My curent salary is $100,00, but I'm worth more than that for XYZ reason."
sterile vault
I mean that if they yell at you, you can just give them ol' 2-week notice and they won't be able to find a man good enough to replace you in quite a while.
opal perch
Even in france everyone can negotiate, janitor isnt a skilled job, people in skilled jobs like computer science can show why they are more important than their current salary